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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 04 2016 07:49 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 07:37 Zooper31 wrote:On May 04 2016 07:26 zatic wrote:
See, that is all speculation we can come up with to justify Davos' actions, but there is simply nothing in the show that shows us these changes.
The most natural thing for Davos pre S6 to do would be to go home. Everything he believed in and everyone he related to in the North is gone.
I mean watch S3 and S6 interactions between Davos and Melisandre side by side. It's a complete 180, and the show gives us no reason for it. Character development over 3 seasons is enough reason. He knew they were fucked to all hell and they needed a leader, desperate times call for desperate measures. He put his differences aside and asked Melisandre for help as much as he doesn't like her or her methods.I don't see where all this hate is coming from for Davos' actions. Show laid it out pretty well how everything was going down. Davos just can't "go home". The fucking White Walkers are coming and the entire Kingdom is on the break of war. He isn't going to have a home to back to... "Differences" is putting it mildly. We are talking about a guy who hates Melisandre so deeply that he was ready to sacrifice his own life if only he could take her with him. The two people in the show he cares most about are Stannis and especially Shireen. The person he hates more than anyone in the world comes back with the news that both are dead. Even without knowing the horrifying details that should make him distrust Melisandre more (if that was possible), not lead him to a complete 180.
Hell did she even tell him Stannis is dead? For all we know he's just trying to deal with the White Walkers and they're impending doom from the Nights Watch mutiny. Maybe he doesn't know Stannis and his entire army is wiped out and they are all that's left. Then again, that reinforces the fact that he needed Jon alive for the kingdom to have a chance at beating them since he's all they have left.
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On May 04 2016 07:26 zatic wrote:
See, that is all speculation we can come up with to justify Davos' actions, but there is simply nothing in the show that shows us these changes.
The most natural thing for Davos pre S6 to do would be to go home. Everything he believed in and everyone he related to in the North is gone.
I mean watch S3 and S6 interactions between Davos and Melisandre side by side. It's a complete 180, and the show gives us no reason for it.
I half agree, his loyalty towards Stannis wasn't only because of Stannis actions in the past, but because he wanted to do what was right, he always had done what his morals tells him to do, which lead him to disobey Stannis sometimes. Siding with Jon's friends is actually what the character is about, doing what he thinks is right no matter the consequences. If he ran away, it wouldn't had been Davos.
But Davos asking about raising Jon back tho, that's another question which left me baffled.
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On May 04 2016 07:39 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 07:37 Zooper31 wrote:On May 04 2016 07:26 zatic wrote:
See, that is all speculation we can come up with to justify Davos' actions, but there is simply nothing in the show that shows us these changes.
The most natural thing for Davos pre S6 to do would be to go home. Everything he believed in and everyone he related to in the North is gone.
I mean watch S3 and S6 interactions between Davos and Melisandre side by side. It's a complete 180, and the show gives us no reason for it. Character development over 3 seasons is enough reason. He knew they were fucked to all hell and they needed a leader, desperate times call for desperate measures. He put his differences aside and asked Melisandre for help as much as he doesn't like her or her methods. I don't see where all this hate is coming from for Davos' actions. Show laid it out pretty well how everything was going down. The hate is because there's simply no justification for Davos to believe the dead can come back to life. He's witnessed her power, he might even need it to fend off the Night's Watch, but from there it's a huge leap to asking her to bring Jon back to life. Davos has literally never seen it happen, and beyond that he's never even heard of it happening (in universe it's only been Thoros reviving Beric and possibly Khal Drogo, although he might not have actually been dead). No one believed the White Walkers were real either despite written history about them. So why would anyone believe that the dead can come back to life when in-universe it's never happened before? Heck even Melissandre didn't believe it was possible until meeting Beric.
I disagree with one part, I think there are several reasonable explanations how Davos could have learned about the idea of resurrections and red priests, so much that I dont think it would not even be necessary to be shown onscreen
-First of all, he and Melisandre have spent so much time close to each other, she surely could have mentioned something about it. It would be a considerable power of her god, and earlier, she was talking a lot about about what she could do in many aspects iirc. (Yes she had her doubts, but she could have mentioned as something her god was able to do, but not herself)
-Given how annoyed the lannisters seemed to be by beric/thoros, I would imagine rumors have been spreading out a lot.
-Remember Davos reading about the iron bank with Shireen? Who knows what else they might have read, or maybe shireen read something and told him abuot red priests etc.
-That pirate Davos was meeting several times in earlier seasons surely has seen a lot of the world; I would imagine his conversations with Davos could have involved Melisandre etc.
I dont think he 100% believed in it succeeding, but hey, desperate situations call for desperate measures.
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Zurich15361 Posts
On May 04 2016 07:54 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 07:49 zatic wrote:On May 04 2016 07:37 Zooper31 wrote:On May 04 2016 07:26 zatic wrote:
See, that is all speculation we can come up with to justify Davos' actions, but there is simply nothing in the show that shows us these changes.
The most natural thing for Davos pre S6 to do would be to go home. Everything he believed in and everyone he related to in the North is gone.
I mean watch S3 and S6 interactions between Davos and Melisandre side by side. It's a complete 180, and the show gives us no reason for it. Character development over 3 seasons is enough reason. He knew they were fucked to all hell and they needed a leader, desperate times call for desperate measures. He put his differences aside and asked Melisandre for help as much as he doesn't like her or her methods.I don't see where all this hate is coming from for Davos' actions. Show laid it out pretty well how everything was going down. Davos just can't "go home". The fucking White Walkers are coming and the entire Kingdom is on the break of war. He isn't going to have a home to back to... "Differences" is putting it mildly. We are talking about a guy who hates Melisandre so deeply that he was ready to sacrifice his own life if only he could take her with him. The two people in the show he cares most about are Stannis and especially Shireen. The person he hates more than anyone in the world comes back with the news that both are dead. Even without knowing the horrifying details that should make him distrust Melisandre more (if that was possible), not lead him to a complete 180. Hell did she even tell him Stannis is dead? For all we know he's just trying to deal with the White Walkers and they're impending doom from the Nights Watch mutiny. Maybe he doesn't know Stannis and his entire army is wiped out and they are all that's left. Then again, that reinforces the fact that he needed Jon alive for the kingdom to have a chance at beating them since he's all they have left.
Last episode of S5 Melisandre returns to Castle Black alone. Davos asks her about Stannis and Shireen. She gives him and empty, desperate look in return. It's pretty clear (and if it wasn't for Davos, I am sure he would have pressed for a real answer).
Now I don't believe Melisandre would tell him that she had Shireen burned alive. But even without this atrocity there is nothing that makes here not the worst person on the planet for him.
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Agreed with most of you guys, Davos' actions are very convenient for the plot but make little sense for his character. Worst writing in the series outside of Dorne. I just don't see why he was so desperate to protect a dead body in the first place. I also feel he'd rather die than go to Melisandre for help after what he's seen of her powers and cruelty.
I also found it hard to believe the night's watch would just stand there without shooting whilst wildlings ran through their gate roaring like mad men. They had no way of knowing the wildlings weren't actually charging.
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On May 04 2016 08:47 Scarecrow wrote:
I just don't see why he was so desperate to protect a dead body in the first place.
He wasn't desperate to protect a dead body. He knew that once the door was open, everyone in the room was gonna die, including him. So he cooked up the only possible way of them getting out of there alive.
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On May 04 2016 10:48 wongfeihung wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 08:47 Scarecrow wrote:
I just don't see why he was so desperate to protect a dead body in the first place. He wasn't desperate to protect a dead body. He knew that once the door was open, everyone in the room was gonna die, including him. So he cooked up the only possible way of them getting out of there alive.
Why? They simply picked up a dead body and brought it inside. They created the situation out of nothing, they could've just gone to the meeting. Only by staying in there with the body for such a long time, and not going to the meeting, did they show their dissent. Davos has no dog in this fight and had no reason to get involved. Melisandre also had no reason to join them.
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On May 04 2016 10:56 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 10:48 wongfeihung wrote:On May 04 2016 08:47 Scarecrow wrote:
I just don't see why he was so desperate to protect a dead body in the first place. He wasn't desperate to protect a dead body. He knew that once the door was open, everyone in the room was gonna die, including him. So he cooked up the only possible way of them getting out of there alive. Why? They simply picked up a dead body and brought it inside. They created the situation out of nothing, they could've just gone to the meeting. Only by staying in there with the body for such a long time, and not going to the meeting, did they show their dissent. Davos has no dog in this fight and had no reason to get involved. Melisandre also had no reason to join them.
Not to mention Ed said the only people he trusted where in that room. Davos should have just had them all leave CB at that point...
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On May 04 2016 10:56 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 10:48 wongfeihung wrote:On May 04 2016 08:47 Scarecrow wrote:
I just don't see why he was so desperate to protect a dead body in the first place. He wasn't desperate to protect a dead body. He knew that once the door was open, everyone in the room was gonna die, including him. So he cooked up the only possible way of them getting out of there alive. Why? They simply picked up a dead body and brought it inside. They created the situation out of nothing, they could've just gone to the meeting. Only by staying in there with the body for such a long time, and not going to the meeting, did they show their dissent. Davos has no dog in this fight and had no reason to get involved. Melisandre also had no reason to join them.
The guys in the room were loyal to Jon. Davos knew what happened and Alliser couldn't risk letting mutiny in the Night's Watch become known to the rest of the world, so he would have to kill Davos too.
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On May 04 2016 11:11 wongfeihung wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 10:56 Scarecrow wrote:On May 04 2016 10:48 wongfeihung wrote:On May 04 2016 08:47 Scarecrow wrote:
I just don't see why he was so desperate to protect a dead body in the first place. He wasn't desperate to protect a dead body. He knew that once the door was open, everyone in the room was gonna die, including him. So he cooked up the only possible way of them getting out of there alive. Why? They simply picked up a dead body and brought it inside. They created the situation out of nothing, they could've just gone to the meeting. Only by staying in there with the body for such a long time, and not going to the meeting, did they show their dissent. Davos has no dog in this fight and had no reason to get involved. Melisandre also had no reason to join them. Alliser couldn't risk letting mutiny in the Night's Watch become known to the rest of the world
Yup, even if the rest of the world did care why would they side with the Lord Commander who let wildlings through the wall? Alliser had 0 reason to fear outside interference over a mutiny, especially as he had news that the Boltons control the north and he's killed a Stark. If he had any fear he would've set a watch on the body, and locked down the castle, or he could've just thrown the body off the wall. So much of this is done to facilitate a resurrection, rather than because it makes sense for the characters.
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I think Davos is probably one of the wisest and most pragmatic characters in the show. He lnows the threaths that face them and believes Jon Snow should lead them through it (exit Stannis enter Jon). When Jon died he was like:
D: Yo red woman do some of that magic shit now
RW: But I can't!
D: Bitch you starting do doubt yourself NOW? Really? Just stfu and wash his hair or something.
RW: ok
And the small difference is that he is smart or noble w/e enough not to word it like that but I'm pretty sure thats the thought process. I wouldn't be surprised if he chops off her head now that Jon is back..
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Except he didn't go looking for Melisandre and only asked her as an afterthought after they'd been sitting in a room with dead Jon the whole day.
D: Yo I found this dead body of a guy that seemed like a leader. I better lock myself in a room and protect this body cus it's got such leadership potential.
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Yeah ok first he just wanted to survive and he was pretty damn sure he was bound for the chopping block. Can't blame him for not trusting the man that murdered his lord commander on his word.
The guy also obviously is a follower to the bone. He apparently really needs people he deems worthy to tell him what to do. If separated from those kind of people his mission becomes to get them back into a leadership position somehow.
I dunno I guess plenty of holes can be poked in his reasoning but I think all will become more clear. I'm just happy at least someone is getting shit done.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37058 Posts
JOHN CENA IS BACK! Time to wreak havoc on those traitors.
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There better be a scene of Jon visiting the cells next episode. I wanna see Thorne/Olly's reactions. Idc what happens to them afterwards, Olly can even be the new lord commander. But there HAS to be a reaction scene.
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On May 04 2016 15:49 Laurens wrote:
There better be a scene of Jon visiting the cells next episode. I wanna see Thorne/Olly's reactions. Idc what happens to them afterwards, Olly can even be the new lord commander. But there HAS to be a reaction scene.
Fine Brothers would sue them
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On May 04 2016 15:57 icystorage wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 15:49 Laurens wrote:
There better be a scene of Jon visiting the cells next episode. I wanna see Thorne/Olly's reactions. Idc what happens to them afterwards, Olly can even be the new lord commander. But there HAS to be a reaction scene. Fine Brothers would sue them
Is that meme still a thing?
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Wow this thread...
every single small plothole gets totally blown out of proportion lol
There simply isn't enough air time to explain it all, or would you rather have every character have a 10min long monologue explaining his actions rather than doing something?
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Does Balon dying mean Theon is the next king? The grey haired dude mentioned something about customs when Yara was saying she was the ruler now. Things are looking up Theon!
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On May 04 2016 16:46 Sterlymobile wrote:
Does Balon dying mean Theon is the next king? The grey haired dude mentioned something about customs when Yara was saying she was the ruler now. Things are looking up Theon!
Nope. Recall that the ironborn either think Theon is dead or too much of a greenlander to rule of he was alive...
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EPT
