EPTWhether this is realistic or not, I don't give a damn
[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 684
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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4553 Posts
Whether this is realistic or not, I don't give a damn | ||
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l3loodraven
2753 Posts
On May 21 2016 06:45 Acrofales wrote: You forget that the Seven Kingdoms were originally unified by Aegon the Conqueror and his dragons. There is a clear causal relationship between the decline of the dragons and the ever-weakening Targaryan hold over Westeros.Yeah, if I were GRRM I would retcon the size of Westeros. Europe is plenty large enough for everything that happens there. Having vast distances may sound pretty awesome, but we are talking about a kingdom roughly 5 times the size of the Roman empire at its largest... and the Roman empire had plenty plenty plenty of problems quashing rebellions. How do you do that when distances are a factor 5 larger, but your tech is roughly the same? E: actually, distances are only a factor sqrt(5) larger (assuming roughly the same shape, and both roughly circular), but even so, it's a serious issue. Greatjon Umber said it best - "It was the dragons we bowed to, and the dragons are all dead!" | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On May 21 2016 17:09 Biff The Understudy wrote: Sure. But look, the first book starts with the king and the Lannister traveling to Winterfell and back, and Cercei is in a huuuuge carriage, right? You don't go at more than 5-6 km an hour with a huge carriage on medieval roads. And you don't travel more than 8 hours a day with horses. That gives you 40 km a day, probably more like 25 since roads are never straight, you need to stop from time to time etc. If the distance between Winterfell and King's Landing is 2500 km, the journey takes 100 days. That's over 3 months and half traveling all the time. And 3 months back. The King left his kingdom for 8 months to go spend a couple of nights in Winterfell? As someone said I think it took them a month, but that makes perfect sense for Robert's character. Most other kings and people would have communicated by Raven or sent a messenger, but for Robert that's a chance to spend a month wandering around drinking & eating without actually doing anything important. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13990 Posts
On May 21 2016 23:38 l3loodraven wrote: You forget that the Seven Kingdoms were originally unified by Aegon the Conqueror and his dragons. There is a clear causal relationship between the decline of the dragons and the ever-weakening Targaryan hold over Westeros. Greatjon Umber said it best - "It was the dragons we bowed to, and the dragons are all dead!" Technically it wasnt even that. Dorne remained free for years before the peace was forged through marriage. | ||
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l3loodraven
2753 Posts
On May 21 2016 23:56 Cricketer12 wrote: The point being that Acrofales is right, no "traditional" empire could have been as successful as the Targaryans were, given the geographic and cultural vastness of Westeros. Technically it wasnt even that. Dorne remained free for years before the peace was forged through marriage. The Seven Kingdoms were independent for thousands of years before Aegon showed up, and they were bound for conflict in the name of independence once the dragons were gone. | ||
KwarK
United States43545 Posts
On May 21 2016 23:54 Logo wrote: As someone said I think it took them a month, but that makes perfect sense for Robert's character. Most other kings and people would have communicated by Raven or sent a messenger, but for Robert that's a chance to spend a month wandering around drinking & eating without actually doing anything important. If we take the example of Medieval England, the court moved with the king and it was normal for the king to tour the country. There is absolutely no reason for the king to have to stay in the capital, the idea that the country wouldn't run if the king wasn't present is silly. Hell, the Roman Empire was run out of Ravenna (rather than Rome) for years. Kings and their courts went on tours often and for a message like "the kingdom is falling apart and I need you to come serve as hand to save it" I can't say I'm surprised that Robert went in person. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7966 Posts
On May 21 2016 23:54 Logo wrote: As someone said I think it took them a month, but that makes perfect sense for Robert's character. Most other kings and people would have communicated by Raven or sent a messenger, but for Robert that's a chance to spend a month wandering around drinking & eating without actually doing anything important. That's my point. If the journey takes a month, King's Landing and Winterfell are certainly not further than 800 km. I simply think there is an inconsistency: either the distances are too big or the time communication and travel takes is too short. I think Martin just miscalculated or completely over estimated how quick you can travel in a medieval setting. My solution is to think of Westeros as way smaller than Martin describes it. I read a "serious" (based really quite closely on historical material) medieval novel once, happening in France and England just before the 100 year war. I remember that everything was wayyyyyy slower than in ASoIaF even though it happened basically between Paris and London. Like, the Queen of England visiting her father in France would take like a year and she would do it once. In the dark age, places 5000 km away basically didn't exist for you. By the way, Martin makes everything too big. That's a nerd's classic mistake. The wall is too high (archers are firing from the bottom of the wall and hitting the top which makes 0 sense), the world is wayyyyyyyy too big, Cercei huge carriage in first book would never travel that far on medieval roads, etc etc.. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On May 21 2016 23:07 Laurens wrote: In the show, the journey takes a month. Cersei says this upon arrival when Robert wants to visit the crypts. Whether this is realistic or not, I don't give a damn Ya that's the show retconning the book, but it certainly didn't take them a month in the book. As I said earlier the book showed Tyrion and Jon taking almost a month just to go from Winterfell to theCastle Black. There are other references to how long it takes to get an army out of the north. I don't recall the time though or how fast an army realistically marches compared to a luxury coach. BTW in terms of an Empire that size the Mongol Empire was about continent sized and managed to stay together about 100 years before splinterng apart, but that was quite an exception. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7966 Posts
On May 22 2016 09:08 Wuster wrote: Ya that's the show retconning the book, but it certainly didn't take them a month in the book. As I said earlier the book showed Tyrion and Jon taking almost a month just to go from Winterfell to theCastle Black. There are other references to how long it takes to get an army out of the north. I don't recall the time though or how fast an army realistically marches compared to a luxury coach. BTW in terms of an Empire that size the Mongol Empire was about continent sized and managed to stay together about 100 years before splinterng apart, but that was quite an exception. Well the mongol empire is not a good reference point because it was extremely extremely decentralized, and basically all based on a dynamic of conquests. Not much to do with a solid and stable european like feudal kingdom. | ||
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DickMcFanny
Ireland1076 Posts
I will put it in spoilers because technically it hasn't aired yet: + Show Spoiler + Hodor's backstory is a great example of something that could only work in the setting of the show. I don't think it's going to be the same in the books. The fact that the Children created the whites makes sense, but was total surprise for me. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12387 Posts
On May 23 2016 03:46 DickMcFanny wrote: Holy SHIT that episode was a mindfuck. I will put it in spoilers because technically it hasn't aired yet: + Show Spoiler + Hodor's backstory is a great example of something that could only work in the setting of the show. I don't think it's going to be the same in the books. The fact that the Children created the whites makes sense, but was total surprise for me. + Show Spoiler + YES I fucking knew it. There's a possible foreshadowing in the prologue of A Game of Thrones (possibly later too but it's the one time I noticed it.) There are three adjectives that are associated with the Others: “The watchers stood patient, faceless, silent.” Those adjectives hold weight in the world of Asoiaf, and two of the three are easily connected with the Stranger. Silent for the silent sisters, and faceless for the faceless men who worship the same God (or at least who can easily be argued to worship the same God). Patient stood out, as it's a little less clear, but I had an inkling that it could refer to the Children, as honestly, who could be argued to be more patient than them? It also suggests that the theories in which the Starks were fighting on the side of Ice and the Others during the Age of Heroes were actually correct. I'm quite happy with all of this. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Man great episode. Loved the Sansa/Littlefinger. I enjoyed Bran's storyline (something I could never get into after Theon gets captured). Summer  , that is the saddest death for me. I hate when those wolfs die . The hodor thing was interesting, I remember reading that theory awhile ago and seems to be right.I want next sunday damnit! | ||
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SwARmZzz
Canada193 Posts
Yeah I remember GRRM saying something like in war, there isn't really a good side or a bad side. Just a matter of perspective of where one stands. Same thing with this war between the men south of the wall vs. the zombies/children of the forest up north. Didn't the first men invade westeros when the children of the forest were already there? Men were also the first people to break that pact when that wall went up. The show just portrays this war from one perspective... It is completely understandable why the children of the forest reacted this way. I just don't understand what kind of discord happened between the night's king and the children of the forest... Did the king just get too strong? | ||
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Sent.
Poland9275 Posts
I hate the time altering stuff in general because it always leads to many hard questions that often have to remain unanswered. Why did the old tree-guy bring Bran to Winterfell ? Did he knew what will happen to Hodor? If he did then does it mean it's possible to see the future? Why did Bran's consciousness split in two? I mean he was controlling Hodor and watching Wylis turn into Hodor simultaneously. I'm worried they only teased us with the ToJ mystery and it won't be revealed in this season. That would be a sick move from the writers. | ||
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haitike
Spain2723 Posts
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zatic
Zurich15361 Posts
1. The wall being too high. He simply had no reference to how freaking high the wall would be. There is the story when they were touring cliffs in Ireland I believe, and someone told him hey, those cliffs are 200 feet high. And he thought, oh. I must have made the Wall too tall with 700ft ... 2. The ages of all the young characters. His initial plan was to have a 5-10 year gap in the story after a trilogy I believe, so he wrote all the children to be early twenties when the action would pick up. But he never got the gap to work which gave us 15yos being in charge all around. 3. The distances. Westeros being the size of LA makes zero sense. Think of the population! Even the Reach would be completely deserted emptiness with maybe 3,4 mio people spread over the size of half of Europe. Most of the country would be completely empty. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
The drastic climate difference between the North and Dorne could've been solved by different elevation. Utah and Colorado are right next to Arizona. There's a huge difference between the rockies and the desert. Add the weird weather patterns in Martin's world and voila. | ||
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
so the only wolves left in the show are Nymeria and Ghost now. Seems like D&D just killing them to keep show costs down. Really felt they undermined Summer's sacrifice a lot by focusing on Hodor at the end. I don't really see why they couldn't have just killed Summer off in another scene next episode or something. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 23 2016 05:49 SwARmZzz wrote: + Show Spoiler + Yeah I remember GRRM saying something like in war, there isn't really a good side or a bad side. Just a matter of perspective of where one stands. Same thing with this war between the men south of the wall vs. the zombies/children of the forest up north. Didn't the first men invade westeros when the children of the forest were already there? Men were also the first people to break that pact when that wall went up. The show just portrays this war from one perspective... It is completely understandable why the children of the forest reacted this way. I just don't understand what kind of discord happened between the night's king and the children of the forest... Did the king just get too strong? + Show Spoiler + Someone interpretted it as being an reference to nuclear weapons/nuclear winter. The CotF were backed into a corner and exhausted every option so turned to their 'nuclear option', creating the Others. But the Others also backfired on the CotF and forced them to make the pact with the first men to survive. That is, nuclear weapons harm you as much as you harm yoru enemies. Given GRRMs stance on war this makes some sense. | ||
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DickMcFanny
Ireland1076 Posts
On May 23 2016 07:00 zatic wrote: There is three "errors" in the physical world of ASOIAF as far as I know to which GRRM has admitted. 1. The wall being too high. He simply had no reference to how freaking high the wall would be. There is the story when they were touring cliffs in Ireland I believe, and someone told him hey, those cliffs are 200 feet high. And he thought, oh. I must have made the Wall too tall with 700ft ... 2. The ages of all the young characters. His initial plan was to have a 5-10 year gap in the story after a trilogy I believe, so he wrote all the children to be early twenties when the action would pick up. But he never got the gap to work which gave us 15yos being in charge all around. 3. The distances. Westeros being the size of LA makes zero sense. Think of the population! Even the Reach would be completely deserted emptiness with maybe 3,4 mio people spread over the size of half of Europe. Most of the country would be completely empty. Not sure 3. would be such a big problem, you can't compare today's population density with historic, rural societies. The densest in all of Europe in the 1700s was London, and even back then it had less than ten per cent of the population it has now. 3.4 million people spread across half of Europe isn't too bad. | ||
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