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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On February 15 2012 10:34 d3_crescentia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 19:22 moopie wrote:
Nobody really knows what Varys' endgame is at this point.
He says he is working for the realm, while actually seeking chaos to allow for a Targaryen invasion. Unlike Littlefinger though he's not driven by gold and power. If his goals were as simple as wanting the Targaryens in power (for whatever reason), why did he work to undermine Aerys and fuel his paranoia? To make Rhaegar take drastic action and step up... but Rhaegar might've been too good of a guy to take it without some prodding.
Had he not worked to make Aerys more crazy though, its possible that the Rebellion could have been averted, which would have meant Rhaegar succeeding him anyway.
I mean, we don't know exactly how much of an influence Varys had on Aerys, but if he had given him wise council instead of working to undermine him, maybe Aerys wouldn't have locked up and killed Brandon/Rickard & friends and a peaceful resolution could have potentially been reached.
Also, even if that theory is incorrect, surely Varys could have found a way to kill off Aerys (like the Tears of Lys) so that Rhaegar could take over peacefully without needing to throw the realm into chaos. I think there's more to Varys' plans than simply wanting the Targs back in power for the good of the realm. I mean, neither Dany nor Aegon have any idea on how to rule the realm. Dany can't even keep Meereen peaceful and made a mess in Slaver's Bay. Its naive to think that in their current state they would be able to unite the realm.
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On February 15 2012 10:11 whatwhatanut wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 09:36 Sub40APM wrote:On February 07 2012 05:23 Z-BosoN wrote:
I didn't understand exactly what Lord Varys plans...
first of all, I understand he left kingslanding because he helped tyrion.. but why did he help him?
And wth does he want? Why does he want to send tyrion to daenarys and why did he kill ser Kevan? Well, it looks like he was pretty disgusted with the Lanister stealth takeover of the crown under the Barantheons and then the overt takeover once the books start. And he thinks that for some reason Targarians will be better rulers, maybe because unlike all the other houses the Tagarians dont have a power base per se and so would have to balance the interest of all the other houses? Anyway, considering the madness of the last Targarian king it seems a strange position. That is a very interesting idea. Did the tagaryins not have a powerhold in Westoros? I would imagine that the area around king's landing would have been their hold like a washington d.c. but a whole territory.
Yea but whoever is king and a leader of the great house has 2 sub-kingdoms to rule over whereas Tagaryians had only 1 and were much more dependent on their vassals. For example -- Lanisters generally fight poorly in the 5 King War or whatever but are still able to buy their way to victory. Now compare that to Rob's rebellion where the Tagarians lost one battle against Rob and were on the backfoot, depending on the loyalist houses.
So I think Varyis is thinking something like this: Any great house that also has its own domain will become cocky and try to dominate. And the Tagarians are already dependent on trying to get the other houses to accept their polices AND the tagarian children are also scarred by the memory of what happens when you mis-rule -- you get overthrown and your family slaughtered so theoretically the next generation of Tagarians should (a) treat their vassals better than their grandfather and (b) will never be able to unilaterally rule the way the Laniesters looked like they might have been able to had Tyrion become ruler instead of Cercei.
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On February 15 2012 10:46 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:34 d3_crescentia wrote:On February 09 2012 19:22 moopie wrote:
Nobody really knows what Varys' endgame is at this point.
He says he is working for the realm, while actually seeking chaos to allow for a Targaryen invasion. Unlike Littlefinger though he's not driven by gold and power. If his goals were as simple as wanting the Targaryens in power (for whatever reason), why did he work to undermine Aerys and fuel his paranoia? To make Rhaegar take drastic action and step up... but Rhaegar might've been too good of a guy to take it without some prodding. Had he not worked to make Aerys more crazy though, its possible that the Rebellion could have been averted, which would have meant Rhaegar succeeding him anyway. I mean, we don't know exactly how much of an influence Varys had on Aerys, but if he had given him wise council instead of working to undermine him, maybe Aerys wouldn't have locked up and killed Brandon/Rickard & friends and a peaceful resolution could have potentially been reached.
Ya but I think the whole point of these books is how manipulators are good at manipulating their subjects but the outcome of the manipulations actually doesnt work out as planned initially. Thus Cercei falls, Vyras sort of falls. It seems kind of implied that Littlefinger will fall too because the lords of Arye are already tired of his low born manipulation.
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On February 15 2012 09:35 whatwhatanut wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 09:28 Aldehyde wrote:On February 15 2012 09:12 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:03 Aldehyde wrote:
So many things going on! Makes me mental... My favourite character seems to have been killed off (Jon). I almost threw the book into my monitor when that happened.
Bran's story is cool and the possibilities for what his role will be in the great scheme of things are awesome. I sure hope Arya is not just going to be a Faceless Man, seems too small somehow.
Dany is finally going to become awesome with her dragons.
Overall, lots of shit going on and I don't want to wait for the next book. I am going to go build a time machine now. Lots of discussion is that Jon didn't actually die and there is pretty significant backing to the theory. A vast majority of the major character deaths have been very vivid in the dying. Also there is just too many connections with Jon in the story. However, Martin could do the mega-double troll and just have him plain dead. I just don't think (and hope) that is what is going to happen. Well, I guess there are possibilities of him being ressurected by Melissandre or just going into Ghost. If any of those, I am hoping for the first one. What are the theories for Jon and the backing thereof (other than what you've already said)? Pretty sure it is all centered around Melisandre and the warg stuff just a lot of discussion about it from others that have read it and the boards for the series. Backing seems to be the foreshadowing, one of Martin's favorite devices. My firend just got to the red wedding and there is a scene a few chapters before where Robb starts thinking about his mortality and naming Jon heir. Very intriguing. I am definitely thinking about a second read.
Yea that letter Rob wrote seemed to be a pretty huge event that hasnt been mentioned at all since then. It was the last thing he did and probably named Jon his successor. Hes tied to so many storylines right now that I can't believe hed actually be dead. But I wouldnt put anything past GRM. So much shit going on I dont see how he can wrap it all up in 2 more books.
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On February 15 2012 10:54 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 09:35 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:28 Aldehyde wrote:On February 15 2012 09:12 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:03 Aldehyde wrote:
So many things going on! Makes me mental... My favourite character seems to have been killed off (Jon). I almost threw the book into my monitor when that happened.
Bran's story is cool and the possibilities for what his role will be in the great scheme of things are awesome. I sure hope Arya is not just going to be a Faceless Man, seems too small somehow.
Dany is finally going to become awesome with her dragons.
Overall, lots of shit going on and I don't want to wait for the next book. I am going to go build a time machine now. Lots of discussion is that Jon didn't actually die and there is pretty significant backing to the theory. A vast majority of the major character deaths have been very vivid in the dying. Also there is just too many connections with Jon in the story. However, Martin could do the mega-double troll and just have him plain dead. I just don't think (and hope) that is what is going to happen. Well, I guess there are possibilities of him being ressurected by Melissandre or just going into Ghost. If any of those, I am hoping for the first one. What are the theories for Jon and the backing thereof (other than what you've already said)? Pretty sure it is all centered around Melisandre and the warg stuff just a lot of discussion about it from others that have read it and the boards for the series. Backing seems to be the foreshadowing, one of Martin's favorite devices. My firend just got to the red wedding and there is a scene a few chapters before where Robb starts thinking about his mortality and naming Jon heir. Very intriguing. I am definitely thinking about a second read. Yea that letter Rob wrote seemed to be a pretty huge event that hasnt been mentioned at all since then. It was the last thing he did and probably named Jon his successor. Hes tied to so many storylines right now that I can't believe hed actually be dead. But I wouldnt put anything past GRM. So much shit going on I dont see how he can wrap it all up in 2 more books.
well, the ultimate troll to all his readers would be for the Others to actually destroy humanity.
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On February 15 2012 10:53 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:46 moopie wrote:On February 15 2012 10:34 d3_crescentia wrote:On February 09 2012 19:22 moopie wrote:
Nobody really knows what Varys' endgame is at this point.
He says he is working for the realm, while actually seeking chaos to allow for a Targaryen invasion. Unlike Littlefinger though he's not driven by gold and power. If his goals were as simple as wanting the Targaryens in power (for whatever reason), why did he work to undermine Aerys and fuel his paranoia? To make Rhaegar take drastic action and step up... but Rhaegar might've been too good of a guy to take it without some prodding. Had he not worked to make Aerys more crazy though, its possible that the Rebellion could have been averted, which would have meant Rhaegar succeeding him anyway. I mean, we don't know exactly how much of an influence Varys had on Aerys, but if he had given him wise council instead of working to undermine him, maybe Aerys wouldn't have locked up and killed Brandon/Rickard & friends and a peaceful resolution could have potentially been reached. Ya but I think the whole point of these books is how manipulators are good at manipulating their subjects but the outcome of the manipulations actually doesnt work out as planned initially. Thus Cercei falls, Vyras sort of falls. It seems kind of implied that Littlefinger will fall too because the lords of Arye are already tired of his low born manipulation.
I edited my above post with more thoughts and I do agree with you to a point, but I still think Varys and Illyrio are both very cunning and resourceful and both could have come to the conclusion that if the goal is simply getting Rhaegar in the iron throne, killing Aerys off is a much simpler approach. At least Illyrio is easier to understand, because he is driven by power and money like Littlefinger, so he has something to gain from conflicts. Varys is an enigma though.
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On February 15 2012 10:57 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:54 antelope591 wrote:On February 15 2012 09:35 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:28 Aldehyde wrote:On February 15 2012 09:12 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:03 Aldehyde wrote:
So many things going on! Makes me mental... My favourite character seems to have been killed off (Jon). I almost threw the book into my monitor when that happened.
Bran's story is cool and the possibilities for what his role will be in the great scheme of things are awesome. I sure hope Arya is not just going to be a Faceless Man, seems too small somehow.
Dany is finally going to become awesome with her dragons.
Overall, lots of shit going on and I don't want to wait for the next book. I am going to go build a time machine now. Lots of discussion is that Jon didn't actually die and there is pretty significant backing to the theory. A vast majority of the major character deaths have been very vivid in the dying. Also there is just too many connections with Jon in the story. However, Martin could do the mega-double troll and just have him plain dead. I just don't think (and hope) that is what is going to happen. Well, I guess there are possibilities of him being ressurected by Melissandre or just going into Ghost. If any of those, I am hoping for the first one. What are the theories for Jon and the backing thereof (other than what you've already said)? Pretty sure it is all centered around Melisandre and the warg stuff just a lot of discussion about it from others that have read it and the boards for the series. Backing seems to be the foreshadowing, one of Martin's favorite devices. My firend just got to the red wedding and there is a scene a few chapters before where Robb starts thinking about his mortality and naming Jon heir. Very intriguing. I am definitely thinking about a second read. Yea that letter Rob wrote seemed to be a pretty huge event that hasnt been mentioned at all since then. It was the last thing he did and probably named Jon his successor. Hes tied to so many storylines right now that I can't believe hed actually be dead. But I wouldnt put anything past GRM. So much shit going on I dont see how he can wrap it all up in 2 more books. well, the ultimate troll to all his readers would be for the Others to actually destroy humanity.
Heh considering no one can reasonably guess where the story's gonna go from book to book I wouldnt count that out as a possible ending.
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On February 15 2012 10:51 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:11 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:36 Sub40APM wrote:On February 07 2012 05:23 Z-BosoN wrote:
I didn't understand exactly What Lord Varys plans...
First of all, I understand he left kingslanding because he helped tyrion.. but why did he heLp him?
And wth does he WanT? Why does he WanT to send tyrion to daenarys and why did he Kill ser Kevan? Well, it looks like he was pretty disgusted with the Lanister stealth takeover of the crown under the Barantheons and then the overt takeover once the books Start. And he thinks that for some ReasoN Targarians will be better rulers, maybe because unlike all the other houses the Tagarians dont have a Power base per se and so would have to balance the interest of all the other houses? Anyway, considering the madness of the last Targarian King it seems a Strange position. That is a very interesting idea. Did the tagaryins not have a powerhold in Westoros? I would Imagine that the area around King'S landing would have been their hold like a washington d.c. but a whole territory. Yea but whoever is King and a LeadeR of the great house has 2 sub-kingdoms to rule over whereas Tagaryians had Only 1 and were much more dependent on their vassals. For example -- Lanisters generally FighT poorly in the 5 King War or whatever but are still able to buy their Way to Victory. Now compare that to Rob'S rebellion where the Tagarians Lost ONE battle against Rob and were on the backfoot, depending on the loyalist houses. So I think Varyis is thinking something like this: Any great house that also has its own domain will become cocky and try to dominate. And the Tagarians are already dependent on trying to get the other houses to accept their polices AND the tagarian children are also scarred by the Memory of What happens when you mis-rule -- you get overthrown and your family slaughtered so theoretically the next generation of Tagarians should (a) treat their vassals better than their grandfather and (b) will Never be able to unilaterally rule the Way the Laniesters looked like they might have been able to had Tyrion become ruler instead of Cercei.
Are you purposely misspelling all the names? After reading all 5 books wouldn't seeing the names misspelled stick out pretty hard? It sure does for me and my OCD can't deal with it >=|
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On February 15 2012 10:46 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:34 d3_crescentia wrote:On February 09 2012 19:22 moopie wrote:
Nobody really knows what Varys' endgame is at this point.
He says he is working for the realm, while actually seeking chaos to allow for a Targaryen invasion. Unlike Littlefinger though he's not driven by gold and power. If his goals were as simple as wanting the Targaryens in power (for whatever reason), why did he work to undermine Aerys and fuel his paranoia? To make Rhaegar take drastic action and step up... but Rhaegar might've been too good of a guy to take it without some prodding. Also, even if that theory is incorrect, surely Varys could have found a way to kill off Aerys (like the Tears of Lys) so that Rhaegar could take over peacefully, without needing to throw the realm into chaos. I think there's more to Varys' plans than simply wanting the Targs back in power for the good of the realm. I mean, neither Dany nor Aegon have any idea on how to rule the realm. Dany can't even keep Meereen peaceful and made a mess in Slaver's Bay.
Well, yea I am not sure why he didnt just kill Aerys. But as to the second part re Dany or Aegon, well it is pretty clear that Varys would be the real ruler, who would rule for the good of the realm while the children grow up watching him rule type of deal.
I could imagine Varys wanting every noble lord being like Lord Stark, and unlike the Lanisters (grand ambition for power) or Barantheon (decadent or violent) and so making a civil war would draw out all those who are hungry for power and destroy them while the Targarians serve as the ultimate backup that no real long term damage to the real would occur.
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On February 15 2012 11:00 scudst0rm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:51 Sub40APM wrote:On February 15 2012 10:11 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:36 Sub40APM wrote:On February 07 2012 05:23 Z-BosoN wrote:
I didn't understand exactly What Lord Varys plans...
First of all, I understand he left kingslanding because he helped tyrion.. but why did he heLp him?
And wth does he WanT? Why does he WanT to send tyrion to daenarys and why did he Kill ser Kevan? Well, it looks like he was pretty disgusted with the Lanister stealth takeover of the crown under the Barantheons and then the overt takeover once the books Start. And he thinks that for some ReasoN Targarians will be better rulers, maybe because unlike all the other houses the Tagarians dont have a Power base per se and so would have to balance the interest of all the other houses? Anyway, considering the madness of the last Targarian King it seems a Strange position. That is a very interesting idea. Did the tagaryins not have a powerhold in Westoros? I would Imagine that the area around King'S landing would have been their hold like a washington d.c. but a whole territory. Yea but whoever is King and a LeadeR of the great house has 2 sub-kingdoms to rule over whereas Tagaryians had Only 1 and were much more dependent on their vassals. For example -- Lanisters generally FighT poorly in the 5 King War or whatever but are still able to buy their Way to Victory. Now compare that to Rob'S rebellion where the Tagarians Lost ONE battle against Rob and were on the backfoot, depending on the loyalist houses. So I think Varyis is thinking something like this: Any great house that also has its own domain will become cocky and try to dominate. And the Tagarians are already dependent on trying to get the other houses to accept their polices AND the tagarian children are also scarred by the Memory of What happens when you mis-rule -- you get overthrown and your family slaughtered so theoretically the next generation of Tagarians should (a) treat their vassals better than their grandfather and (b) will Never be able to unilaterally rule the Way the Laniesters looked like they might have been able to had Tyrion become ruler instead of Cercei. Are you purposely misspelling all the names? After reading all 5 books wouldn't seeing the names misspelled stick out pretty hard? It sure does for me and my OCD can't deal with it >=|
sorry. typing on little screen and no autocorrect.
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On February 15 2012 10:59 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:57 Sub40APM wrote:On February 15 2012 10:54 antelope591 wrote:On February 15 2012 09:35 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:28 Aldehyde wrote:On February 15 2012 09:12 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:03 Aldehyde wrote:
So many things going on! Makes me mental... My favourite character seems to have been killed off (Jon). I almost threw the book into my monitor when that happened.
Bran's story is cool and the possibilities for what his role will be in the great scheme of things are awesome. I sure hope Arya is not just going to be a Faceless Man, seems too small somehow.
Dany is finally going to become awesome with her dragons.
Overall, lots of shit going on and I don't want to wait for the next book. I am going to go build a time machine now. Lots of discussion is that Jon didn't actually die and there is pretty significant backing to the theory. A vast majority of the major character deaths have been very vivid in the dying. Also there is just too many connections with Jon in the story. However, Martin could do the mega-double troll and just have him plain dead. I just don't think (and hope) that is what is going to happen. Well, I guess there are possibilities of him being ressurected by Melissandre or just going into Ghost. If any of those, I am hoping for the first one. What are the theories for Jon and the backing thereof (other than what you've already said)? Pretty sure it is all centered around Melisandre and the warg stuff just a lot of discussion about it from others that have read it and the boards for the series. Backing seems to be the foreshadowing, one of Martin's favorite devices. My firend just got to the red wedding and there is a scene a few chapters before where Robb starts thinking about his mortality and naming Jon heir. Very intriguing. I am definitely thinking about a second read. Yea that letter Rob wrote seemed to be a pretty huge event that hasnt been mentioned at all since then. It was the last thing he did and probably named Jon his successor. Hes tied to so many storylines right now that I can't believe hed actually be dead. But I wouldnt put anything past GRM. So much shit going on I dont see how he can wrap it all up in 2 more books. well, the ultimate troll to all his readers would be for the Others to actually destroy humanity. Heh considering no one can reasonably guess where the story's gonna go from book to book I wouldnt count that out as a possible ending.
Here's my ultimate troll ending. Victarion tries blowing Euron's horn to tame the dragons. Doesn't work and they just get pissed off by the noise and kill everyone. Then it turns out that was actually somehow the horn or Joramun and the wall comes crumbing down and Westeros is overrun by the others army wights.
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On February 15 2012 11:05 scudst0rm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:59 antelope591 wrote:On February 15 2012 10:57 Sub40APM wrote:On February 15 2012 10:54 antelope591 wrote:On February 15 2012 09:35 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:28 Aldehyde wrote:On February 15 2012 09:12 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:03 Aldehyde wrote:
So many things going on! Makes me mental... My favourite character seems to have been killed off (Jon). I almost threw the book into my monitor when that happened.
Bran's story is cool and the possibilities for what his role will be in the great scheme of things are awesome. I sure hope Arya is not just going to be a Faceless Man, seems too small somehow.
Dany is finally going to become awesome with her dragons.
Overall, lots of shit going on and I don't want to wait for the next book. I am going to go build a time machine now. Lots of discussion is that Jon didn't actually die and there is pretty significant backing to the theory. A vast majority of the major character deaths have been very vivid in the dying. Also there is just too many connections with Jon in the story. However, Martin could do the mega-double troll and just have him plain dead. I just don't think (and hope) that is what is going to happen. Well, I guess there are possibilities of him being ressurected by Melissandre or just going into Ghost. If any of those, I am hoping for the first one. What are the theories for Jon and the backing thereof (other than what you've already said)? Pretty sure it is all centered around Melisandre and the warg stuff just a lot of discussion about it from others that have read it and the boards for the series. Backing seems to be the foreshadowing, one of Martin's favorite devices. My firend just got to the red wedding and there is a scene a few chapters before where Robb starts thinking about his mortality and naming Jon heir. Very intriguing. I am definitely thinking about a second read. Yea that letter Rob wrote seemed to be a pretty huge event that hasnt been mentioned at all since then. It was the last thing he did and probably named Jon his successor. Hes tied to so many storylines right now that I can't believe hed actually be dead. But I wouldnt put anything past GRM. So much shit going on I dont see how he can wrap it all up in 2 more books. well, the ultimate troll to all his readers would be for the Others to actually destroy humanity. Heh considering no one can reasonably guess where the story's gonna go from book to book I wouldnt count that out as a possible ending. Here's my ultimate troll ending. Victarion tries blowing Euron's horn to tame the dragons. Doesn't work and they just get pissed off by the noise and kill everyone. Then it turns out that was actually somehow the horn or Joramun and the wall comes crumbing down and Westeros is overrun by the others army wights.
Hmm. That's trolly in the sense that it's just super anti climatic and everyones like
Everyone
wtf -.-
A really troll ending would involve all the worst possible things happening, imo. Arya killing Jon for an 'assignement.' Starks all getting bloodily wiped out for good, with reputation completely tarnished and going down in history as scum. Wolves turned into coats. Walder Frey being ultimately victorious. Tyrion dying in some dirty pit and being completely forgotten. You know, that kind of stuff.
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On February 15 2012 10:41 disciple wrote:
I hate how predictable Martin is killing off the best warriors. First the Drogo dying undefeated afterwards the viper of dorne dying cause of being too cocky. Oh well, he was one of my favorite characters, lived and died like a pimp.
Yeah, not to mention Jaime losing his sword arm. I do, however, like how Jaime's evolved through the books. He went from being slighly interesting to one of my favourite characters.
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11589 Posts
I hope Daenaerys marries Victarion and they start destroying the world. Fire and Blood and Iron.
But aside from my fanboyish dreams for this series, I am honestly shocked at the idea of Jon dying. He is a linchpin to the story moving forward in a meaningful way for the North. I'm also seriously curious about what the Others actually are once you take away the propaganda from the red priestess and the bogey-man stories from Old Nan.
I have to say, the storylines aside from the ones I've already mentioned seem insignificant when compared. Most of them, aside from maybe Jon Connington and Jaime, are also insanely boring. I wish some real plot progression would happen instead of this feigned stuff with Cersei losing power, Kevin setting the realm right, and then it all crumbling apart in the epilogue.
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Jon had a dream the morning he let Tormund and wildling army through the wall, and in the dream he wielded a red sword. Melissandre also saw his face in the fire when she wanted to see Azore Ahai. So it is safe to say that Jon is not going to really die. If he was revealed as that hero and then died then we could have doubts.
As far as Varys and Ilyrio go, popular theory is that Aegon is not a real Targaryan but Blackfyre and a son of Ilyrio and his Blackfyre wife (the one that died of sickness).
So they are actually trying to put a Blackfyre on the throne and not targaryans. Varys first manipulated to remove Targaryans and then manipulated to have Aegon now claim the throne.
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On February 15 2012 11:05 scudst0rm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:59 antelope591 wrote:On February 15 2012 10:57 Sub40APM wrote:On February 15 2012 10:54 antelope591 wrote:On February 15 2012 09:35 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:28 Aldehyde wrote:On February 15 2012 09:12 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:03 Aldehyde wrote:
So many things going on! Makes me mental... My favourite character seems to have been killed off (Jon). I almost threw the book into my monitor when that happened.
Bran's story is cool and the possibilities for what his role will be in the great scheme of things are awesome. I sure hope Arya is not just going to be a Faceless Man, seems too small somehow.
Dany is finally going to become awesome with her dragons.
Overall, lots of shit going on and I don't want to wait for the next book. I am going to go build a time machine now. Lots of discussion is that Jon didn't actually die and there is pretty significant backing to the theory. A vast majority of the major character deaths have been very vivid in the dying. Also there is just too many connections with Jon in the story. However, Martin could do the mega-double troll and just have him plain dead. I just don't think (and hope) that is what is going to happen. Well, I guess there are possibilities of him being ressurected by Melissandre or just going into Ghost. If any of those, I am hoping for the first one. What are the theories for Jon and the backing thereof (other than what you've already said)? Pretty sure it is all centered around Melisandre and the warg stuff just a lot of discussion about it from others that have read it and the boards for the series. Backing seems to be the foreshadowing, one of Martin's favorite devices. My firend just got to the red wedding and there is a scene a few chapters before where Robb starts thinking about his mortality and naming Jon heir. Very intriguing. I am definitely thinking about a second read. Yea that letter Rob wrote seemed to be a pretty huge event that hasnt been mentioned at all since then. It was the last thing he did and probably named Jon his successor. Hes tied to so many storylines right now that I can't believe hed actually be dead. But I wouldnt put anything past GRM. So much shit going on I dont see how he can wrap it all up in 2 more books. well, the ultimate troll to all his readers would be for the Others to actually destroy humanity. Heh considering no one can reasonably guess where the story's gonna go from book to book I wouldnt count that out as a possible ending. Here's my ultimate troll ending. Victarion tries blowing Euron's horn to tame the dragons. Doesn't work and they just get pissed off by the noise and kill everyone. Then it turns out that was actually somehow the horn or Joramun and the wall comes crumbing down and Westeros is overrun by the others army wights.
Haha I wouldn't be surprised if that actually happens. I think the Horn of Joruman part will anyway, we never really find out what happened to the real one. It would also be pretty lame if the Wall stayed up and humanity united and held the Others off at the wall or something. Id be so disappointed. Also I think one reason GRRM is putting Jon into Ghost is so he'll survive the fall of the Wall and be able to do something, what it is I have no idea, Im thinking Bran will help him out with that.
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On February 16 2012 02:25 Flik wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 11:05 scudst0rm wrote:On February 15 2012 10:59 antelope591 wrote:On February 15 2012 10:57 Sub40APM wrote:On February 15 2012 10:54 antelope591 wrote:On February 15 2012 09:35 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:28 Aldehyde wrote:On February 15 2012 09:12 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:03 Aldehyde wrote:
So many things going on! Makes me mental... My favourite character seems to have been killed off (Jon). I almost threw the book into my monitor when that happened.
Bran's story is cool and the possibilities for what his role will be in the great scheme of things are awesome. I sure hope Arya is not just going to be a Faceless Man, seems too small somehow.
Dany is finally going to become awesome with her dragons.
Overall, lots of shit going on and I don't want to wait for the next book. I am going to go build a time machine now. Lots of discussion is that Jon didn't actually die and there is pretty significant backing to the theory. A vast majority of the major character deaths have been very vivid in the dying. Also there is just too many connections with Jon in the story. However, Martin could do the mega-double troll and just have him plain dead. I just don't think (and hope) that is what is going to happen. Well, I guess there are possibilities of him being ressurected by Melissandre or just going into Ghost. If any of those, I am hoping for the first one. What are the theories for Jon and the backing thereof (other than what you've already said)? Pretty sure it is all centered around Melisandre and the warg stuff just a lot of discussion about it from others that have read it and the boards for the series. Backing seems to be the foreshadowing, one of Martin's favorite devices. My firend just got to the red wedding and there is a scene a few chapters before where Robb starts thinking about his mortality and naming Jon heir. Very intriguing. I am definitely thinking about a second read. Yea that letter Rob wrote seemed to be a pretty huge event that hasnt been mentioned at all since then. It was the last thing he did and probably named Jon his successor. Hes tied to so many storylines right now that I can't believe hed actually be dead. But I wouldnt put anything past GRM. So much shit going on I dont see how he can wrap it all up in 2 more books. well, the ultimate troll to all his readers would be for the Others to actually destroy humanity. Heh considering no one can reasonably guess where the story's gonna go from book to book I wouldnt count that out as a possible ending. Here's my ultimate troll ending. Victarion tries blowing Euron's horn to tame the dragons. Doesn't work and they just get pissed off by the noise and kill everyone. Then it turns out that was actually somehow the horn or Joramun and the wall comes crumbing down and Westeros is overrun by the others army wights. Haha I wouldn't be surprised if that actually happens. I think the Horn of Joruman part will anyway, we never really find out what happened to the real one. It would also be pretty lame if the Wall stayed up and humanity united and held the Others off at the wall or something. Id be so disappointed. Also I think one reason GRRM is putting Jon into Ghost is so he'll survive the fall of the Wall and be able to do something, what it is I have no idea, Im thinking Bran will help him out with that.
Didnt they blow the horn at the kingsmoot? i think they did and the guy who blew it died with burned lungs.
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On February 15 2012 10:53 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:46 moopie wrote:On February 15 2012 10:34 d3_crescentia wrote:On February 09 2012 19:22 moopie wrote:
Nobody really knows what Varys' endgame is at this point.
He says he is working for the realm, while actually seeking chaos to allow for a Targaryen invasion. Unlike Littlefinger though he's not driven by gold and power. If his goals were as simple as wanting the Targaryens in power (for whatever reason), why did he work to undermine Aerys and fuel his paranoia? To make Rhaegar take drastic action and step up... but Rhaegar might've been too good of a guy to take it without some prodding. Had he not worked to make Aerys more crazy though, its possible that the Rebellion could have been averted, which would have meant Rhaegar succeeding him anyway. I mean, we don't know exactly how much of an influence Varys had on Aerys, but if he had given him wise council instead of working to undermine him, maybe Aerys wouldn't have locked up and killed Brandon/Rickard & friends and a peaceful resolution could have potentially been reached. Ya but I think the whole point of these books is how manipulators are good at manipulating their subjects but the outcome of the manipulations actually doesnt work out as planned initially. Thus Cercei falls, Vyras sort of falls. It seems kind of implied that Littlefinger will fall too because the lords of Arye are already tired of his low born manipulation.
I'm sure I'm not the only one with this theory, but here's my thought on all the plotting in the books.
Any point when characters reveal the full extent of their plans for the future, they never work out. There's possibly 1 or 2 exceptions in some of the earlier books, but that's about it. Considering the amount of plotting going on, I think those few things hardly count considering that the huge majority go FUBAR as soon as a character voices their plan.
So the book's audience represents the prying ears of the various spy networks and factions. If the audience knows about something, then you can be sure that someone in the book also knows about it. It's only when characters are vague about their plans, or manage to keep them hidden even from the reader that they are ultimately successful.
The recent books have really cemented this theory for me, things go so poorly for so many. Tyrion planning to use the Red Viper to escape his punishment, Rob attending the Red Wedding, everything that happened to The Frog Prince (god I'm terrible with names). Even with Danerys, the things that went well like securing the Unsullied seemed almost spontaneous, while "stay here and be queen" didn't really turn out so well. Also with Littlefinger/Sansa, we knew nothing about how she was going to get out of King's Landing or who was behind it, and it went flawlessly.
Every time a character spends pages talking about plans I get real worried for them. When they're just out doing stuff they're generally ok, but once they sit down and start plotting in front of the audience, I know they're screwed.
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On February 16 2012 06:43 Replice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 02:25 Flik wrote:On February 15 2012 11:05 scudst0rm wrote:On February 15 2012 10:59 antelope591 wrote:On February 15 2012 10:57 Sub40APM wrote:On February 15 2012 10:54 antelope591 wrote:On February 15 2012 09:35 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:28 Aldehyde wrote:On February 15 2012 09:12 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:03 Aldehyde wrote:
So many things going on! Makes me mental... My favourite character seems to have been killed off (Jon). I almost threw the book into my monitor when that happened.
Bran's story is cool and the possibilities for what his role will be in the great scheme of things are awesome. I sure hope Arya is not just going to be a Faceless Man, seems too small somehow.
Dany is finally going to become awesome with her dragons.
Overall, lots of shit going on and I don't want to wait for the next book. I am going to go build a time machine now. Lots of discussion is that Jon didn't actually die and there is pretty significant backing to the theory. A vast majority of the major character deaths have been very vivid in the dying. Also there is just too many connections with Jon in the story. However, Martin could do the mega-double troll and just have him plain dead. I just don't think (and hope) that is what is going to happen. Well, I guess there are possibilities of him being ressurected by Melissandre or just going into Ghost. If any of those, I am hoping for the first one. What are the theories for Jon and the backing thereof (other than what you've already said)? Pretty sure it is all centered around Melisandre and the warg stuff just a lot of discussion about it from others that have read it and the boards for the series. Backing seems to be the foreshadowing, one of Martin's favorite devices. My firend just got to the red wedding and there is a scene a few chapters before where Robb starts thinking about his mortality and naming Jon heir. Very intriguing. I am definitely thinking about a second read. Yea that letter Rob wrote seemed to be a pretty huge event that hasnt been mentioned at all since then. It was the last thing he did and probably named Jon his successor. Hes tied to so many storylines right now that I can't believe hed actually be dead. But I wouldnt put anything past GRM. So much shit going on I dont see how he can wrap it all up in 2 more books. well, the ultimate troll to all his readers would be for the Others to actually destroy humanity. Heh considering no one can reasonably guess where the story's gonna go from book to book I wouldnt count that out as a possible ending. Here's my ultimate troll ending. Victarion tries blowing Euron's horn to tame the dragons. Doesn't work and they just get pissed off by the noise and kill everyone. Then it turns out that was actually somehow the horn or Joramun and the wall comes crumbing down and Westeros is overrun by the others army wights. Haha I wouldn't be surprised if that actually happens. I think the Horn of Joruman part will anyway, we never really find out what happened to the real one. It would also be pretty lame if the Wall stayed up and humanity united and held the Others off at the wall or something. Id be so disappointed. Also I think one reason GRRM is putting Jon into Ghost is so he'll survive the fall of the Wall and be able to do something, what it is I have no idea, Im thinking Bran will help him out with that. Didnt they blow the horn at the kingsmoot? i think they did and the guy who blew it died with burned lungs.
well so much for that theory
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On February 16 2012 06:43 Replice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 02:25 Flik wrote:On February 15 2012 11:05 scudst0rm wrote:On February 15 2012 10:59 antelope591 wrote:On February 15 2012 10:57 Sub40APM wrote:On February 15 2012 10:54 antelope591 wrote:On February 15 2012 09:35 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:28 Aldehyde wrote:On February 15 2012 09:12 whatwhatanut wrote:On February 15 2012 09:03 Aldehyde wrote:
So many things going on! Makes me mental... My favourite character seems to have been killed off (Jon). I almost threw the book into my monitor when that happened.
Bran's story is cool and the possibilities for what his role will be in the great scheme of things are awesome. I sure hope Arya is not just going to be a Faceless Man, seems too small somehow.
Dany is finally going to become awesome with her dragons.
Overall, lots of shit going on and I don't want to wait for the next book. I am going to go build a time machine now. Lots of discussion is that Jon didn't actually die and there is pretty significant backing to the theory. A vast majority of the major character deaths have been very vivid in the dying. Also there is just too many connections with Jon in the story. However, Martin could do the mega-double troll and just have him plain dead. I just don't think (and hope) that is what is going to happen. Well, I guess there are possibilities of him being ressurected by Melissandre or just going into Ghost. If any of those, I am hoping for the first one. What are the theories for Jon and the backing thereof (other than what you've already said)? Pretty sure it is all centered around Melisandre and the warg stuff just a lot of discussion about it from others that have read it and the boards for the series. Backing seems to be the foreshadowing, one of Martin's favorite devices. My firend just got to the red wedding and there is a scene a few chapters before where Robb starts thinking about his mortality and naming Jon heir. Very intriguing. I am definitely thinking about a second read. Yea that letter Rob wrote seemed to be a pretty huge event that hasnt been mentioned at all since then. It was the last thing he did and probably named Jon his successor. Hes tied to so many storylines right now that I can't believe hed actually be dead. But I wouldnt put anything past GRM. So much shit going on I dont see how he can wrap it all up in 2 more books. well, the ultimate troll to all his readers would be for the Others to actually destroy humanity. Heh considering no one can reasonably guess where the story's gonna go from book to book I wouldnt count that out as a possible ending. Here's my ultimate troll ending. Victarion tries blowing Euron's horn to tame the dragons. Doesn't work and they just get pissed off by the noise and kill everyone. Then it turns out that was actually somehow the horn or Joramun and the wall comes crumbing down and Westeros is overrun by the others army wights. Haha I wouldn't be surprised if that actually happens. I think the Horn of Joruman part will anyway, we never really find out what happened to the real one. It would also be pretty lame if the Wall stayed up and humanity united and held the Others off at the wall or something. Id be so disappointed. Also I think one reason GRRM is putting Jon into Ghost is so he'll survive the fall of the Wall and be able to do something, what it is I have no idea, Im thinking Bran will help him out with that. Didnt they blow the horn at the kingsmoot? i think they did and the guy who blew it died with burned lungs.
Well, we can speculate, although a bit far stretched.
Horn of Joruman and Euron's horn are both... horns.
The wall is made of ice, Euron's horn burns. (somehow melts ice?)
If Horn of Joruman and Euron's horn are of the same thing, you might need to use it closer to the wall for it to take affect.
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EPT
