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Discussing the show and past episodes is fine. Do not put things that have happened in the TV series in spoilers. However, don't spoil things from the books that may happen in future episodes. Put book spoilers in spoiler tags with a CLEAR WARNING that it is from the book. |
On February 12 2013 07:32 Kazeyonoma wrote:
for real though, glenn and rick's breakdowns are part of their humanity being displayed, how can people complain about this drama, it's a big time part of TWD, and people claiming it's just circular or that there aren't enough zombies is just.. ugh you don't get TWD at all.
it's somewhat troubling that tonal inconsistencies or poor storytelling can be brushed under the rug with "but it shows they're human to act strangely or do things for no reason!" who's having trouble believing two of the best characters in the show are human, exactly...
- what is the purpose, within the narrative, of glenn lashing out at rick? to indicate that their relationship is stressed? it's not, in any realistic sense; glenn isn't leaving the group any time soon. even if it's worth illustrating, why did glenn need to look stupid by not only dressing down rick while maggie was around but using a deeply flawed argument consisting of "why didn't you just shoot the governor, or go back and shoot him?!" when rick just saved his ass? how does this do anything but make glenn less palatable as a character? I don't need to know glenn is a multifaceted individual via his being a douche - pretty out of character, even then - I've been watching him for three seasons, he's been through plenty of stuff. at least daryl had a reason to be pissed at rick, glenn is just projecting his frustrations and it isn't attractive.
- rick's "phone" was more subtle than ghost lori. his scene with judith was so much more subtle than ghost lori. an anvil dropping from the ceiling with a note duct-taped to it reading "RICK IS PSYCHOLOGICALLY UNSTABLE" would be more subtle than ghost lori, also no one thinks she's really a ghost it's a joke. ghost lori exists to generate fake tension in a storyline where we already know rick will be psychologically able to defend against the governor at the end of the season, i.e. fake, phony tension.
- people say they want zombies because the character drama, especially in seasons 1 and 2, failed to grip them. it's a consistent problem with the show that when people start talking, viewers stop watching, and please let me assure you, it is not because I fail to understand the plot or the character motivations. it is quite frankly shocking that this show has had 3 seasons to sketch out basic characters and that I still couldn't coherently tell you what half the cast's characterization is supposed to be. so many cast members are still under that net definition of "human surviving apocalypse, sometimes scared, sometimes in danger" and it is not my failure of comprehension but a failure of the writers to get away from the setting and into the unique, neglected attributes of their characters.
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Well there was the phonecall; but I agree, there needed to be some indication during the episode that he wasnt of sound mind
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I think the people of Woodbury over-reacted in terms of them hovering around and wanting to leave. Although it may of been fucked up with the events that transpired I still wonder why they would think going out into the Zombie world would be any safer? I guess it could be in reference to Andrea and the Governor having the argument earlier in the season about how the Zombies shouldn't be treated lightly and that teaching people not to be afraid of them is a bad idea.
I liked the Rick Rage at the end, I just think the only problem was there was no rage leading into it. Rick basically acts normal throughout the whole episode and then get angry for little reason.
The Glen rage wasn't all bad... imo it was done better than Ricks.
I'm not sure what to think of Merle and his brother going off on their own. I guess it adds a new branch to the series in which we will have 3 in total now (The jail, woodbury, and the 2 Brothers). I think adding anymore at this point would be a bit to much.
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On February 12 2013 08:38 p4NDemik wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:32 Kazeyonoma wrote:
TDAWG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
for real though, glenn and rick's breakdowns are part of their humanity being displayed, how can people complain about this drama, it's a big time part of TWD, and people claiming it's just circular or that there aren't enough zombies is just.. ugh you don't get TWD at all. I don't think anyone has any problem with Rick and Glen cracking under the stress, it's just that the execution in depicting this development is more suited to a day-time soap opera. The hallucination was too much in my opinion, too overt and felt forced into the last scene. We know Rick is dealing with heavy stuff and is already a little off his rocker but springing that in the last minutes of screen-time was a big "WTF" and not in the good way, because there was no focus on Rick's inner turmoil throughout the episode until that point. Visual hallucinations can be used to great effect if done correctly. Boardwalk Empire had some great sequences in the past season where this kind of thing happens. The pacing and execution of the episode allowed me to understand the character and relate to why he was disturbed. Zombie-hallucination Lori and Rick's outrageous reaction to her did not accomplish anything for me by comparison. I find it unpleasant when that kind of batshit insane moment is sprung on me without some build up occuring throughout the episode. It's jarring as a viewer and doesn't allow for me to relate to Rick. If there had been an auditory hallucination or two in this episode leading up to it, that scene may have been quite effective for me. Or slip in the hallucination for a split second a few times earlier in the episode and have Rick sort of shake it off before the breakdown. As is, it was just poor storytelling imo.
In the context of him just losing his wife (and then "receiving" a phone call from her), having a baby, having gone without sleep for a few days, coupled with months of intense stress.. Well it's not exactly out of the blue. And psychosis onset isn't necessarily gradual, it can be quite sudden.
I like this turn, it'll be interesting to see how the group will cope without Darryl or a collected Rick.
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On February 12 2013 10:01 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 08:38 p4NDemik wrote:On February 12 2013 07:32 Kazeyonoma wrote:
TDAWG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
for real though, glenn and rick's breakdowns are part of their humanity being displayed, how can people complain about this drama, it's a big time part of TWD, and people claiming it's just circular or that there aren't enough zombies is just.. ugh you don't get TWD at all. I don't think anyone has any problem with Rick and Glen cracking under the stress, it's just that the execution in depicting this development is more suited to a day-time soap opera. The hallucination was too much in my opinion, too overt and felt forced into the last scene. We know Rick is dealing with heavy stuff and is already a little off his rocker but springing that in the last minutes of screen-time was a big "WTF" and not in the good way, because there was no focus on Rick's inner turmoil throughout the episode until that point. Visual hallucinations can be used to great effect if done correctly. Boardwalk Empire had some great sequences in the past season where this kind of thing happens. The pacing and execution of the episode allowed me to understand the character and relate to why he was disturbed. Zombie-hallucination Lori and Rick's outrageous reaction to her did not accomplish anything for me by comparison. I find it unpleasant when that kind of batshit insane moment is sprung on me without some build up occuring throughout the episode. It's jarring as a viewer and doesn't allow for me to relate to Rick. If there had been an auditory hallucination or two in this episode leading up to it, that scene may have been quite effective for me. Or slip in the hallucination for a split second a few times earlier in the episode and have Rick sort of shake it off before the breakdown. As is, it was just poor storytelling imo. In the context of him just losing his wife (and then "receiving" a phone call from her), having a baby, having gone without sleep for a few days, coupled with months of intense stress.. Well it's not exactly out of the blue. And psychosis onset isn't necessarily gradual, it can be quite sudden. I like this turn, it'll be interesting to see how the group will cope without Darryl or a collected Rick.
uh, this isn't some sort of organic narrative that's evolving on its own and the TWD crew is just documenting it. his point, and mine, is that a choice was clearly made on the part of the show to end the episode with rick going bonkers and waving his gun around at ghost lori. it's unearned, has almost no foreshadowing (seriously, this is the main character of this show and he just suffered a psychotic break...is he going to be in a prison straitjacket next episode?), legitimately hurts the credibility of the character, and worst of all will all be undone by the end of the season anyway because rick can't fistfight the governor in a straitjacket. it is the worst sort of empty cliffhanger, it reeks of desperation to RAMP IT UP in a somnolent episode, and is deeply, deeply uninteresting.
I'm noting this tendency to refer to "the group" as a thing that people should be concerned with. if the group is made up of boring ciphers, from where should my concern originate? all I know is daryl won't be gone from that group long, glenn won't be sullen long, and rick won't be crazy long because the writers absolutely cannot afford to spend time using beth and carl and carol (carol is on a good streak, though) to articulate drama.
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On February 12 2013 10:14 TheExile19 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 10:01 hifriend wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 p4NDemik wrote:On February 12 2013 07:32 Kazeyonoma wrote:
TDAWG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
for real though, glenn and rick's breakdowns are part of their humanity being displayed, how can people complain about this drama, it's a big time part of TWD, and people claiming it's just circular or that there aren't enough zombies is just.. ugh you don't get TWD at all. I don't think anyone has any problem with Rick and Glen cracking under the stress, it's just that the execution in depicting this development is more suited to a day-time soap opera. The hallucination was too much in my opinion, too overt and felt forced into the last scene. We know Rick is dealing with heavy stuff and is already a little off his rocker but springing that in the last minutes of screen-time was a big "WTF" and not in the good way, because there was no focus on Rick's inner turmoil throughout the episode until that point. Visual hallucinations can be used to great effect if done correctly. Boardwalk Empire had some great sequences in the past season where this kind of thing happens. The pacing and execution of the episode allowed me to understand the character and relate to why he was disturbed. Zombie-hallucination Lori and Rick's outrageous reaction to her did not accomplish anything for me by comparison. I find it unpleasant when that kind of batshit insane moment is sprung on me without some build up occuring throughout the episode. It's jarring as a viewer and doesn't allow for me to relate to Rick. If there had been an auditory hallucination or two in this episode leading up to it, that scene may have been quite effective for me. Or slip in the hallucination for a split second a few times earlier in the episode and have Rick sort of shake it off before the breakdown. As is, it was just poor storytelling imo. In the context of him just losing his wife (and then "receiving" a phone call from her), having a baby, having gone without sleep for a few days, coupled with months of intense stress.. Well it's not exactly out of the blue. And psychosis onset isn't necessarily gradual, it can be quite sudden. I like this turn, it'll be interesting to see how the group will cope without Darryl or a collected Rick. uh, this isn't some sort of organic narrative that's evolving on its own and the TWD crew is just documenting it. his point, and mine, is that a choice was clearly made on the part of the show to end the episode with rick going bonkers and waving his gun around at ghost lori. it's unearned, has almost no foreshadowing (seriously, this is the main character of this show and he just suffered a psychotic break...is he going to be in a prison straitjacket next episode?), legitimately hurts the credibility of the character, and worst of all will all be undone by the end of the season anyway because rick can't fistfight the governor in a straitjacket. it is the worst sort of empty cliffhanger, it reeks of desperation to RAMP IT UP in a somnolent episode, and is deeply, deeply uninteresting. I'm noting this tendency to refer to "the group" as a thing that people should be concerned with. if the group is made up of boring ciphers, from where should my concern originate? all I know is daryl won't be gone from that group long, glenn won't be sullen long, and rick won't be crazy long because the writers absolutely cannot afford to spend time using beth and carl and carol (carol is on a good streak, though) to articulate drama.
*sigh*.....
The reason why the writers did that bit with Rick at the end of the episode was to show the group that he's going through a TON of shit and that he's mentally unfit. It's what leads to Rick stepping down as leader of group. This was hinted at in the commercial previews when Carl tells his dad to "stop being the leader." + Show Spoiler +Also similar to what happens in the comics. Rick steps down from leadership due to instability and fighting w/ Tyrese.
The group needs a reason to see that Rick isn't fit to lead, so that's what the writers did. His spout of rage wasn't a "desperate" or "empty" cliffhanger. It's a pretty damn important part of the story.
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Hyrule19145 Posts
On February 12 2013 09:49 lonelyPotato wrote:
I think the people of Woodbury over-reacted in terms of them hovering around and wanting to leave. Although it may of been fucked up with the events that transpired I still wonder why they would think going out into the Zombie world would be any safer? I guess it could be in reference to Andrea and the Governor having the argument earlier in the season about how the Zombies shouldn't be treated lightly and that teaching people not to be afraid of them is a bad idea.
I liked the Rick Rage at the end, I just think the only problem was there was no rage leading into it. Rick basically acts normal throughout the whole episode and then get angry for little reason.
The Glen rage wasn't all bad... imo it was done better than Ricks.
I'm not sure what to think of Merle and his brother going off on their own. I guess it adds a new branch to the series in which we will have 3 in total now (The jail, woodbury, and the 2 Brothers). I think adding anymore at this point would be a bit to much.
Zombies don't orchestrate coordinated attacks on the town with various types of grenades and heavy weaponry.
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On February 12 2013 10:14 TheExile19 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 10:01 hifriend wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 p4NDemik wrote:On February 12 2013 07:32 Kazeyonoma wrote:
TDAWG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
for real though, glenn and rick's breakdowns are part of their humanity being displayed, how can people complain about this drama, it's a big time part of TWD, and people claiming it's just circular or that there aren't enough zombies is just.. ugh you don't get TWD at all. I don't think anyone has any problem with Rick and Glen cracking under the stress, it's just that the execution in depicting this development is more suited to a day-time soap opera. The hallucination was too much in my opinion, too overt and felt forced into the last scene. We know Rick is dealing with heavy stuff and is already a little off his rocker but springing that in the last minutes of screen-time was a big "WTF" and not in the good way, because there was no focus on Rick's inner turmoil throughout the episode until that point. Visual hallucinations can be used to great effect if done correctly. Boardwalk Empire had some great sequences in the past season where this kind of thing happens. The pacing and execution of the episode allowed me to understand the character and relate to why he was disturbed. Zombie-hallucination Lori and Rick's outrageous reaction to her did not accomplish anything for me by comparison. I find it unpleasant when that kind of batshit insane moment is sprung on me without some build up occuring throughout the episode. It's jarring as a viewer and doesn't allow for me to relate to Rick. If there had been an auditory hallucination or two in this episode leading up to it, that scene may have been quite effective for me. Or slip in the hallucination for a split second a few times earlier in the episode and have Rick sort of shake it off before the breakdown. As is, it was just poor storytelling imo. In the context of him just losing his wife (and then "receiving" a phone call from her), having a baby, having gone without sleep for a few days, coupled with months of intense stress.. Well it's not exactly out of the blue. And psychosis onset isn't necessarily gradual, it can be quite sudden. I like this turn, it'll be interesting to see how the group will cope without Darryl or a collected Rick. uh, this isn't some sort of organic narrative that's evolving on its own and the TWD crew is just documenting it. his point, and mine, is that a choice was clearly made on the part of the show to end the episode with rick going bonkers and waving his gun around at ghost lori. it's unearned, has almost no foreshadowing (seriously, this is the main character of this show and he just suffered a psychotic break...is he going to be in a prison straitjacket next episode?), legitimately hurts the credibility of the character, and worst of all will all be undone by the end of the season anyway because rick can't fistfight the governor in a straitjacket. it is the worst sort of empty cliffhanger, it reeks of desperation to RAMP IT UP in a somnolent episode, and is deeply, deeply uninteresting. I'm noting this tendency to refer to "the group" as a thing that people should be concerned with. if the group is made up of boring ciphers, from where should my concern originate? all I know is daryl won't be gone from that group long, glenn won't be sullen long, and rick won't be crazy long because the writers absolutely cannot afford to spend time using beth and carl and carol (carol is on a good streak, though) to articulate drama.
I think the hallucination was okay. It's decently realistic, much moreso than the behavior of the fools in Woodbury, and it contributes a lot more to the character development than Glenn's seemingly aimless breakdown. I don't really understand your point about empty cliffhangers; not everybody has read the comic books, so I don't see why it's so obvious to the uninformed that Rick will be facing off against the Governor for the season finale. And even if it is, why is that so different from any other show where the main character gets into some sort of life-threatening trouble? You know he's going to be okay, but you still want to see how he faces his adversity.
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On February 12 2013 10:49 PaqMan wrote:*sigh*..... The reason why the writers did that bit with Rick at the end of the episode was to show the group that he's going through a TON of shit and that he's mentally unfit. It's what leads to Rick stepping down as leader of group. This was hinted at in the commercial previews when Carl tells his dad to "stop being the leader." + Show Spoiler +Also similar to what happens in the comics. Rick steps down from leadership due to instability and fighting w/ Tyrese. The group needs a reason to see that Rick isn't fit to lead, so that's what the writers did. His spout of rage wasn't a "desperate" or "empty" cliffhanger. It's a pretty damn important part of the story.
hinted at in commercial previews? are you serious?
nothing in the world outside of reading the comics (which I have not done, nor would I ever) would have brought me to the conclusion that rick steps down from anything, certainly not the actions within these past couple episodes, mostly because rick has been getting along for episode after episode without any of this debilitating insanity (vs. him having episodes, but still getting on with his role as leader) being foreshadowed or developed at all. don't sigh at me for not reading the comics, your entire argument hinges on:
1) people having 100% predetermined knowledge of a plotline most of us don't know the conclusion to
2) commercial breaks...man, when I think good show, I think of a show that saves its plotwork for commercial breaks...certainly isn't in evidence within the narrative.
On February 12 2013 10:58 Cel.erity wrote:
I think the hallucination was okay. It's decently realistic, much moreso than the behavior of the fools in Woodbury, and it contributes a lot more to the character development than Glenn's seemingly aimless breakdown. I don't really understand your point about empty cliffhangers; not everybody has read the comic books, so I don't see why it's so obvious to the uninformed that Rick will be facing off against the Governor for the season finale. And even if it is, why is that so different from any other show where the main character gets into some sort of life-threatening trouble? You know he's going to be okay, but you still want to see how he faces his adversity.
welllllll, I haven't read the comics and it seemed dreadfully obvious that rick wasn't going anywhere because no other character is suited to take his leadership role, or the role of the primary protagonist, at the point the show is at. no other character has any kind of impetus behind them to take the lead, if tyreese ends up doing it like I just had spoiled for me then how in the world would I have been able to tell previously? tyreese is an absolute outsider at this point. without that knowledge, it just looks like the one character with any sort of confidence is losing his mind in awful, cliched fashion, and if it's really a long-con setup to reduce his viability as leader for a permanent sort of swap, here we are again with the absolute lack of foreshadowing because he just led a raid into woodbury with no problems! but then he's sad and conflicted at the drop of a hat!
I guess I don't want to see how rick does, even with this knowledge, because examining this show in a critical light just blows holes in it and because once rick forgives himself, it'll be back to business as usual with underwritten characters. I've all but talked myself out of watching next week because I cannot reconcile all these problems with the fact that as the show goes on all the cool things about the setting are slowly being diluted in favor of bloated, awfully written and plotted drama wherein lies all the problems that plague the show.
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i doubt that's the last we see of merle and daryl, my guess is when the governer assaults the prison to try and take over the brothers are gonna swoop in and save the day.
Also i don't understand why some people are mad at daryl for leaving, merle is blood and you don't leave blood behind.
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You don't need to read the comics to see that Rick isn't fit for being a leader anymore. You should be able to realize this unless you're just completely oblivious to what's been happening. My point stands, Rick hallucinating and losing his grip wasn't an empty or desperate move by the writers.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
I think the hallucination scene at the end would've had a greater effect if we couldn't see what Rick was seeing.
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On February 12 2013 11:53 PaqMan wrote:
You don't need to read the comics to see that Rick isn't fit for being a leader anymore. You should be able to realize this unless you're just completely oblivious to what's been happening. My point stands, Rick hallucinating and losing his grip wasn't an empty or desperate move by the writers.
no, I'm not oblivious, I'm just immune to rick's PTSD/guilt complex being used as a narrative bludgeoning tool because he already had this exact same arc immediately following lori's death and culminating with the phone call. now we're turning it into a serial arc because the writers need something to do while we bridge the gap from governor being ambushed and turned into a cyclops to governor attacking the prison or acting on rick's group somehow. it has already been done, it came out of nowhere in this episode, this instance in particular turns rick into a pitiful figure, and it's lazy and stupid precisely because it will last until the plot needs him to reverse it again, just like it did before. setting grounds for plot developments by tearing up the story you have, to insert this supposedly tense plotline as an adrenaline shot for a lame episode, is one of the better examples of poor writing in what is basically a universally acclaimed series that I've ever seen, and I simply cannot get over it.
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On February 12 2013 11:53 PaqMan wrote:
You don't need to read the comics to see that Rick isn't fit for being a leader anymore. You should be able to realize this unless you're just completely oblivious to what's been happening. My point stands, Rick hallucinating and losing his grip wasn't an empty or desperate move by the writers.
tbh there were many parts in twd that seemed like a plot development only to be dismissed without any climax, dramatic elements being irrelevant to the story, shit happening then coming full circle as if nothing happened or the story can continue as if it didnt happen. i can't pick out every instance, especially not watching it for months but its the feeling/remembrance i've had since i started watching this.
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United States13896 Posts
On February 12 2013 10:01 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 08:38 p4NDemik wrote:On February 12 2013 07:32 Kazeyonoma wrote:
TDAWG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
for real though, glenn and rick's breakdowns are part of their humanity being displayed, how can people complain about this drama, it's a big time part of TWD, and people claiming it's just circular or that there aren't enough zombies is just.. ugh you don't get TWD at all. I don't think anyone has any problem with Rick and Glen cracking under the stress, it's just that the execution in depicting this development is more suited to a day-time soap opera. The hallucination was too much in my opinion, too overt and felt forced into the last scene. We know Rick is dealing with heavy stuff and is already a little off his rocker but springing that in the last minutes of screen-time was a big "WTF" and not in the good way, because there was no focus on Rick's inner turmoil throughout the episode until that point. Visual hallucinations can be used to great effect if done correctly. Boardwalk Empire had some great sequences in the past season where this kind of thing happens. The pacing and execution of the episode allowed me to understand the character and relate to why he was disturbed. Zombie-hallucination Lori and Rick's outrageous reaction to her did not accomplish anything for me by comparison. I find it unpleasant when that kind of batshit insane moment is sprung on me without some build up occuring throughout the episode. It's jarring as a viewer and doesn't allow for me to relate to Rick. If there had been an auditory hallucination or two in this episode leading up to it, that scene may have been quite effective for me. Or slip in the hallucination for a split second a few times earlier in the episode and have Rick sort of shake it off before the breakdown. As is, it was just poor storytelling imo. In the context of him just losing his wife (and then "receiving" a phone call from her), having a baby, having gone without sleep for a few days, coupled with months of intense stress.. Well it's not exactly out of the blue. And psychosis onset isn't necessarily gradual, it can be quite sudden. I like this turn, it'll be interesting to see how the group will cope without Darryl or a collected Rick.
Maybe I'd feel differently if I had re-watched this season up until this point prior to the episode. But after coming back from a two month hiatus, and showing no hint of further hallucinations all episode, this felt very much like an out of the blue soap opera twist moment rather than a genuine depiction of psychosis. I'm not say that given the context of this season this is too much of a jump for the writers. It's not. As far as having a consistent narrative and feeling immersed in the world of The Walking Dead, the mid-season finale/premier, two month hiatus thing did not play in their favor imo.
When they did the mid-season finale in Season 2 I didn't care because there was a clear conclusion. They shot the zombie Sophia and that arc ended. This time around the arc was more compelling and I was more invested in where the story was going. On top of that, the break came at a cliffhanger moment where there was complete chaos among most of the cast. There was no logical closure. It was very jarring to be dropped back into this world as someone who didn't have the time to re-watch every episode. Season 2 was pretty unaffected by the break, where as I felt the break was a rather large detriment to my viewing experience.
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Him and Lori weren't on good terms when season 3 started. She tried to fix things but he was still being a dick to her. Suddenly she dies before he can fix things between them. Not only that, but he feels like her death was his fault.
Throw all that guilt and shit on top of him and I think it's pretty reasonable for him to start losing mental stability.
If you saw the raid on Woodbury before the midseason break, you'd have seen Rick hallucinating when he thought he killed Shane again (turned out to be some random guy). This, the berserk mode he went in when he found out Lori died, and the phone calls all clearly show that Rick wasn't totally right in the head to begin with. This all leads up to his tantrum at the end of yesterday's show.
Basically, if you've been keeping up with season 3 you should have a pretty good understanding of why things are happening. He's been wrong in the head since the second he found out his wife died.
On February 12 2013 12:12 p4NDemik wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 10:01 hifriend wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 p4NDemik wrote:On February 12 2013 07:32 Kazeyonoma wrote:
TDAWG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
for real though, glenn and rick's breakdowns are part of their humanity being displayed, how can people complain about this drama, it's a big time part of TWD, and people claiming it's just circular or that there aren't enough zombies is just.. ugh you don't get TWD at all. I don't think anyone has any problem with Rick and Glen cracking under the stress, it's just that the execution in depicting this development is more suited to a day-time soap opera. The hallucination was too much in my opinion, too overt and felt forced into the last scene. We know Rick is dealing with heavy stuff and is already a little off his rocker but springing that in the last minutes of screen-time was a big "WTF" and not in the good way, because there was no focus on Rick's inner turmoil throughout the episode until that point. Visual hallucinations can be used to great effect if done correctly. Boardwalk Empire had some great sequences in the past season where this kind of thing happens. The pacing and execution of the episode allowed me to understand the character and relate to why he was disturbed. Zombie-hallucination Lori and Rick's outrageous reaction to her did not accomplish anything for me by comparison. I find it unpleasant when that kind of batshit insane moment is sprung on me without some build up occuring throughout the episode. It's jarring as a viewer and doesn't allow for me to relate to Rick. If there had been an auditory hallucination or two in this episode leading up to it, that scene may have been quite effective for me. Or slip in the hallucination for a split second a few times earlier in the episode and have Rick sort of shake it off before the breakdown. As is, it was just poor storytelling imo. In the context of him just losing his wife (and then "receiving" a phone call from her), having a baby, having gone without sleep for a few days, coupled with months of intense stress.. Well it's not exactly out of the blue. And psychosis onset isn't necessarily gradual, it can be quite sudden. I like this turn, it'll be interesting to see how the group will cope without Darryl or a collected Rick. Maybe I'd feel differently if I had re-watched this season up until this point prior to the episode. But after coming back from a two month hiatus, and showing no hint of further hallucinations all episode, this felt very much like an out of the blue soap opera twist moment rather than a genuine depiction of psychosis. I'm not say that given the context of this season this is too much of a jump for the writers. It's not. As far as having a consistent narrative and feeling immersed in the world of The Walking Dead, the mid-season finale/premier, two month hiatus thing did not play in their favor imo. When they did the mid-season finale in Season 2 I didn't care because there was a clear conclusion. They shot the zombie Sophia and that arc ended. This time around the arc was more compelling and I was more invested in where the story was going. On top of that, the break came at a cliffhanger moment where there was complete chaos among most of the cast. There was no logical closure. It was very jarring to be dropped back into this world as someone who didn't have the time to re-watch every episode. Season 2 was pretty unaffected by the break, where as I felt the break was a rather large detriment to my viewing experience.
That makes more sense. I watched the whole marathon they showed on Sunday that lead up to the midseason break so it was easier for me to understand. They didn't choose a good time for the Season 3 break.
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On February 12 2013 12:18 PaqMan wrote:
Him and Lori weren't on good terms when season 3 started. She tried to fix things but he was still being a dick to her. Suddenly she dies before he can fix things between them. Not only that, but he feels like her death was his fault.
Throw all that guilt and shit on top of him and I think it's pretty reasonable for him to start losing mental stability.
If you saw the raid on Woodbury before the midseason break, you'd have seen Rick hallucinating when he thought he killed Shane again (turned out to be some random guy). This, the berserk mode he went in when he found out Lori died, and the phone calls all clearly show that Rick wasn't totally right in the head to begin with. This all leads up to his tantrum at the end of yesterday's show.
Basically, if you've been keeping up with season 3 you should have a pretty good understanding of why things are happening. There is no arc or whatever, he's been wrong in the head since the second he found out his wife died.
I'm going to isolate my position on this into two separate points.
1) I'm willing to accept that this is internally consistent writing, but it's sure as fuck not tonally or thematically consistent, mostly due to the episodic construction. this show has been perfectly willing to set rick's problems aside to have the requisite action with the governor, and little snippets of isolated incidents every other episode isn't enough to foreshadow this batshit craziness that got sprung on us in this last episode. like I said before, there's a huge difference between small lapses in mental coherency and oh my god he's talking to a dead person in the middle of everyone with no regard for his image or credibility. it's a huge jump, it has crushed my ability to just sit and accept all of this, and there's been so many moments of resolution or otherwise implied ability to persevere (the phone convo, the chat with carl, the fact that he can, I don't know, lead complex and harrowing raids into enemy settlements) that it comes off as a joke to me when we're back here with this toothless arc again. also, it is absolutely a character arc.
2) everything about 1 is exacerbated by this goddamn midseason break forcing me to relearn all this info. worst. award-grubbing. idea. ever.
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Exile, I dig your passion.
Ghost Lori actually worked for me. It was chilling, and shows the escalation of the stress and loss that Rick is under. I'm glad that the phone call thread is continuing on. And I'm liking Tyrese and his group so far.
Glen's brooding and outbursts were annoying but I think they worked given that he believes that the Governor raped Maggie. The easily-persuaded unruly Woodbury mob was only surpassed in facepalmability by Andrea's speech.
Frankly, thread, I expected more rage at the possibility that Daryl is leaving the show or at least being sidelined in a major way. + Show Spoiler [comic talk] +Writing Daryl off the show to make room for Tyrese as Rick's right hand man would be a huge mistake IMO. I hope they're not going that route.
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Pretty tame episode, hopefully the rest will continue in the fashion the season went before the break. The opening scene was cringe worthy tho, terrible acting.
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I really dislike the way things are going, I've said it before and I'll say it again, their decision to cut key minor characters from the comic has seriously hurt the development of major characters.
It's like they don't understand the concept of using a minor character to bolster / develop major ones.
Although they don't seem to understand any concepts of character development to be frank. Maybe its because its a TV audience so they feel the need to pander? I don't know why, its not like Breaking Bad is doing poorly and that whole show is about character development.
Ricks little episode just smacked of rushing, they made the first two seasons too slow, Glens outburst was just dumb. If he was exhausted, which would've explained it Rick should have put him back in his place and restrained him, and whats with him and Maggie? Maggie got off light, he's the one who was nearly beaten to death. Wanting to go back, thats just suicidal, Glen has more sense than that, he's supposed to be the most level headed character.
Although faaaaaaar worse than Rick / Glen was Andreas appalling speech to Woodbury, it's not like the people weren't being total idiots. Those sentries with the guns should've smacked a few of them around to restore order, you can justify that quite easily when there is potential to wreck the whole town because of uncontrolled panic.
But no Andrea makes the worlds worst written speech 'when they write the history books about this, they will mention Woodbury!'... really? Cliche hollywood pre-charge battle speech had me rolling my eyes so hard I nearly passed out.
She is a great character in the comics, loyal, reliable and smart. In this she's just a judgemental child trying to impose pre-outbreak morals on a struggling society.. when it suits her. She seemed to have no problem with the whole shoot out being Rick & co, more hurt about the Governor being a bit cold with her.
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EPT
