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Discussing the show and past episodes is fine. Do not put things that have happened in the TV series in spoilers. However, don't spoil things from the books that may happen in future episodes. Put book spoilers in spoiler tags with a CLEAR WARNING that it is from the book.
p4NDemik
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States13896 Posts
October 22 2012 11:27 GMT
#4481
There are relatively few Lori scenes thus far this season. Last season was full of gut-twisting, vomit-inducing, horribly written, horribly acted Lori scenes. Again this has been mostly due to the increased favoring of action/zombie killing as opposed to mind-numbing, poorly-written dialogue.

On the mustachioed dude, I completely agree, they could have strung that out for another couple episodes but they did it right and got rid of him immediately. Good choice.
Moderator
Dosey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4505 Posts
October 22 2012 11:28 GMT
#4482
How can the logical expectation be that Hershel dies? The bite was amputated before the bite infection set in and they kept the wound clean. Sure, it would have made more sense if they cauterized it and used antibiotics like the comics, but they didn't for whatever reason. That doesn't make it any less logical that an amputation would be successful in preventing the bite infection from spreading. You also seem to be operating under the assumption that a zombie bite is just some normal infection. It isn't and it's been established in the comic that it has an almost supernatural effect in causing death quickly and amputation is the only surefire way to prevent a turning. This HAD to be established in the show, I seriously don't understand what YOU don't understand about that?
p4NDemik
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States13896 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-22 11:49:55
October 22 2012 11:39 GMT
#4483
They don't establish that the bite is "supernatural" in the comic. They all thought that originally but once non-bitten people re-animate they all realize that was naive and wrong. They established this same thing at the end of last season. Everyone knows that there is nothing crazy about the bite itself that kills you outside of serious infection. If you have proper tools you can save them. The only thing supernatural is the way the virus kicks in after someone dies. The infections that cause the death are nothing mankind hasn't seen before.

I think the problem here stems from the lack of explaining whatever Carl brings back from the infirmary. I don't recall at any point in the episode them even showing the characters administering antibiotics. Maybe I missed it or maybe its just they had the proper drugs and assumed the viewer would assume that. In retrospect I think that was their reasoning for Hershel living its just a bit of a stretch for the viewer to make the jump from a large bag of assorted stuff from the infirmary to proper antibiotics that are actually necessary to save Hershel.
Moderator
Dosey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4505 Posts
October 22 2012 11:57 GMT
#4484
On October 22 2012 20:39 p4NDemik wrote:
They don't establish that the bite is "supernatural" in the comic. They all thought that originally but once non-bitten people re-animate they all realize that was naive and wrong. They established this same thing at the end of last season. Everyone knows that there is nothing crazy about the bite itself that kills you outside of serious infection. If you have proper tools you can save them. The only thing supernatural is the way the virus kicks in after someone dies. The infections that cause the death are nothing mankind hasn't seen before.

I think the problem here stems from the lack of explaining whatever Carl brings back from the infirmary. I don't recall at any point in the episode them even showing the characters administering antibiotics. Maybe I missed it or maybe its just they had the proper drugs and assumed the viewer would assume that.

What? Then how the fuck did the virus spread in the first place? If it's treatable then the hospitals should have been able to treat it properly, and the outbreak surely would have been prevented! That is a very naive assumption from you and completely baseless. No infection from a simple bite can kill a strong, fit human being within hours/days. I don't even think a Komodo Dragon bite is THAT deadly, and they have some of the nastiest bacteria in their mouth, coupled with even venom glands.
p4NDemik
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States13896 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-22 12:30:53
October 22 2012 12:15 GMT
#4485
Calm down.

How did the virus spread: we don't know, hasn't been explained yet as far as I have read in the comics and certainly not in the show. Probably airborne, maybe water contamination, possibly other ways. Bottom line - no one knows.

Whether the initial infection is treatable logically doesn't matter. Why? Because regardless of the cause of death if the brain is still in tact with no trauma they come back as the living dead. Even if the doctors are able to keep those who are bitten alive the number of people around the world that die naturally and came back would lead to massive numbers of infections, more than hospitals were prepare to handle. Something like 150,000 people die every day on this planet. That would have been 150,000 more new zombies every day, just from natural deaths. On top of that the huge number of infections and bites would start to compound the problem rapidly. The problem for the CDC, doctors, and scientists worldwide would not logically be treating the people who have been bitten. The problem was always figuring out how the actual zombie-turning virus or whatever you want to call it operates and stopping the re-animation process. If they couldn't stop the dead from coming back to life then being able to save those who were bitten didn't matter.

The comic doesn't lay this all out for you but it explicitly says that nothing about the bite itself is "supernatural."
Moderator
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13536 Posts
October 22 2012 12:23 GMT
#4486
Great episode. Rick's such a boss now.

Who give mouth-to-mouth to a potential zombie though -__-;;
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
necmon
Profile Joined September 2010
194 Posts
October 22 2012 12:30 GMT
#4487
On October 22 2012 20:57 Dosey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2012 20:39 p4NDemik wrote:
They don't establish that the bite is "supernatural" in the comic. They all thought that originally but once non-bitten people re-animate they all realize that was naive and wrong. They established this same thing at the end of last season. Everyone knows that there is nothing crazy about the bite itself that kills you outside of serious infection. If you have proper tools you can save them. The only thing supernatural is the way the virus kicks in after someone dies. The infections that cause the death are nothing mankind hasn't seen before.

I think the problem here stems from the lack of explaining whatever Carl brings back from the infirmary. I don't recall at any point in the episode them even showing the characters administering antibiotics. Maybe I missed it or maybe its just they had the proper drugs and assumed the viewer would assume that.

What? Then how the fuck did the virus spread in the first place? If it's treatable then the hospitals should have been able to treat it properly, and the outbreak surely would have been prevented! That is a very naive assumption from you and completely baseless. No infection from a simple bite can kill a strong, fit human being within hours/days. I don't even think a Komodo Dragon bite is THAT deadly, and they have some of the nastiest bacteria in their mouth, coupled with even venom glands.


Sorry, you are wrong.The virus would still spread due to its self-sustaining nature. As I will show you with the use of scientific literature ( ;-) ):
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2702.2011.03920.x/pdf
http://mysite.science.uottawa.ca/rsmith43/Zombies.pdf

I.e., as soon as the Zombie disease reaches critical mass (which it will, because nobody just decapitates people that die, you know), it is probably self-sustaining, because these freaking things just don't die by themselves...


Dosey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4505 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-22 12:32:42
October 22 2012 12:31 GMT
#4488
On October 22 2012 21:15 p4NDemik wrote:
Calm down.

How did the virus spread: we don't know, hasn't been explained yet as far as I have read in the comics and certainly not in the show. Probably airborne, maybe water contamination, possibly other ways. Bottom line - no one knows.

Whether the initial infection is treatable logically doesn't matter. Why? Because regardless of the cause of death if the brain is still in tact with no trauma they come back as the living dead. Even if the doctors are able to keep those who are bitten alive the number of people around the world that die naturally and came back would lead to massive numbers of infections, more than hospitals were prepare to handle. Something like 150,000 people die every day on this planet. That would have been 150,000 more new zombies every day, just from natural deaths. On top of that the huge number of infections and bites would start to compound the problem rapidly. The problem for the CDC, doctors, and scientists worldwide would not logically be treating the people who have been bitten. The problem was always figuring out how the actual zombie-turning virus or whatever you want to call it operates and stopping the re-animation process. If they couldn't stop the dead from coming back to life then being able to save those who were bitten didn't matter.

The comic doesn't lay this all out for you but it explicitly says that nothing about the bite itself is "supernatural."


You are focusing too much on the word supernatural. I said that for lack of a better term as I am unaware of any virus that can kill someone within mere days of infecting the victim with a 100% kill rate. Bites KILL and it isn't just some bull shit infection either. No virus in the history of man is that deadly that fast. Symptoms from a bite manifest almost instantly, this doesn't even happen with rabies. Rabies takes ~3-4 days to show symptoms and then takes a further 2 weeks to kill the victim. By the 3-4 day mark with a zombie bite in the TWD universe, you are fucking dead and eating the girl next door.
p4NDemik
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States13896 Posts
October 22 2012 12:51 GMT
#4489
Dude, infections that we know of right now in real life aren't bull shit either. At all. Once sepsis sets in people can die really freaking fast. Within days. Modern medicine has done amazing things to curb just how bad infections can get, but in the absence of it or if our medical infrastructure was completely overrun people would die that fast and it wouldn't be a freak occurrence at all.

You say everyone who is bitten dies within 3 or 4 days. That's a poor assumption to make about anyone who is bitten in TWD universe based on a few characters who got bitten on the show and got no proper medical care aside from a few bandages and well wishes.
Moderator
Dosey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4505 Posts
October 22 2012 13:05 GMT
#4490
On October 22 2012 21:51 p4NDemik wrote:
Dude, infections that we know of right now in real life aren't bull shit either. At all. Once sepsis sets in people can die really freaking fast. Within days. Modern medicine has done amazing things to curb just how bad infections can get, but in the absence of it or if our medical infrastructure was completely overrun people would die that fast and it wouldn't be a freak occurrence at all.

You say everyone who is bitten dies within 3 or 4 days. That's a poor assumption to make about anyone who is bitten in TWD universe based on a few characters who got bitten on the show and got no proper medical care aside from a few bandages and well wishes.

At this point I firmly believe that you dislike me and are intentionally being irrational to bait an offensive response. Bite = Death is established in this universe. I really don't understand how you can get more clear cut than that. In all the years that this comic has been published, if a bite was treatable then Kirkman would have shown it possible instead of revisiting the same type of Villain for the 2nd time now. As for your constant squabble about infections and sepsis, those still take a while to set in. You aren't going to instantly have an infection if a dog bites you. It has to remain unclean for a few days, then it becomes infected, after infection it still has to remain unclean before finally spreading into your blood stream and causing death. All of that wholly decides on the infected individual and doesn't always spell death for them and is easily treated with antibiotics. Don't you think if a bite was treatable by antibiotics, then we'd see more than one bite survivor (who is actually only alive due to amputation)? Don't you think Hershel would have had antibiotics and prevented the death of his (many) sons who were bitten?
zbedlam
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia549 Posts
October 22 2012 13:18 GMT
#4491
Is that really annoying lady with the short hair that keeps trying to mother Daryl in this season? Also does Lori still have a lot of screen time?

These two characters really killed this show for me in season 2.
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
October 22 2012 13:33 GMT
#4492
what kind of bullshit is this? if everybody already infected and only reanimated when they die then why would ppl turn undead while alive when they merely were bitten? Getting bit in the fucking leg will not kill a normal human being. Then there must be something in the undead's saliva that reacts with the virus already in the host? but if that's the case wouldn't all the host's own saliva turn react with the virus? or would it be that the virus only exist in the blood stream, and the human immune system produces something that try to counter the virus but also puts something in the saliva as a by-product. and if a live host ever lick his own wound he would turn to undead. So what in the fuck? somebody explain.
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
p4NDemik
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States13896 Posts
October 22 2012 13:54 GMT
#4493
We need a fucking doctor in this thread.
Moderator
p4NDemik
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States13896 Posts
October 22 2012 13:58 GMT
#4494
Either that or I need to re-read the comics and responses by Kirkman to the letters, which I'm basing much of my analysis off of.
Moderator
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
October 22 2012 14:03 GMT
#4495
On October 22 2012 22:18 zbedlam wrote:
Is that really annoying lady with the short hair that keeps trying to mother Daryl in this season? Also does Lori still have a lot of screen time?

These two characters really killed this show for me in season 2.


Trying to mother Daryl? Lol, she is not trying to mother Daryl at all. More like get him to put his arrow in the target.
Life?
blug
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia623 Posts
October 22 2012 14:04 GMT
#4496
On October 22 2012 22:33 rei wrote:
what kind of bullshit is this? if everybody already infected and only reanimated when they die then why would ppl turn undead while alive when they merely were bitten? Getting bit in the fucking leg will not kill a normal human being. Then there must be something in the undead's saliva that reacts with the virus already in the host? but if that's the case wouldn't all the host's own saliva turn react with the virus? or would it be that the virus only exist in the blood stream, and the human immune system produces something that try to counter the virus but also puts something in the saliva as a by-product. and if a live host ever lick his own wound he would turn to undead. So what in the fuck? somebody explain.


That's what I don't really understand, I personally think the whole "We are all infected" thing doesn't make all that much sense. You could argue that the Zombies saliva paired with the wound just causes the infection to go out of control and just fucks up with your immune system. However, if you already are infected, does that mean if you cut your leg accidentally does that mean you will turn since you are already infected?

Perhaps the infection within the Zombies is a mutated strain of the virus and if that gets paired with a regular persons blood stream they get fucked over.
Derp
blug
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia623 Posts
October 22 2012 14:06 GMT
#4497
On October 22 2012 22:58 p4NDemik wrote:
Either that or I need to re-read the comics and responses by Kirkman to the letters, which I'm basing much of my analysis off of.


It could be possible that it just skipped his mind.
Derp
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
October 22 2012 14:07 GMT
#4498
On October 22 2012 22:33 rei wrote:
what kind of bullshit is this? if everybody already infected and only reanimated when they die then why would ppl turn undead while alive when they merely were bitten? Getting bit in the fucking leg will not kill a normal human being. Then there must be something in the undead's saliva that reacts with the virus already in the host? but if that's the case wouldn't all the host's own saliva turn react with the virus? or would it be that the virus only exist in the blood stream, and the human immune system produces something that try to counter the virus but also puts something in the saliva as a by-product. and if a live host ever lick his own wound he would turn to undead. So what in the fuck? somebody explain.




ALSO TO EASE PEOPLE.


The bite isn't what kills you, it's the infections that the zombies carry. Remember they're rotting corpses. They have all kinds of diseases that they carry, such as the flu, pneumonia, cancer, aids and all other kinds of diseases. The bite just helps transfer the diseases that will kill you and once you die, the zombie virus is what takes control afterwards. It explains it in the comics and the thing is, they didn't know they can stop the disease from spreading if they amputate. Now they just found out that is possible to save people by taking their limbs off because it stops the diseases from spreading and killing them. This has been talked about in this thread every season.
Life?
p4NDemik
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States13896 Posts
October 22 2012 14:08 GMT
#4499
On October 22 2012 22:05 Dosey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2012 21:51 p4NDemik wrote:
Dude, infections that we know of right now in real life aren't bull shit either. At all. Once sepsis sets in people can die really freaking fast. Within days. Modern medicine has done amazing things to curb just how bad infections can get, but in the absence of it or if our medical infrastructure was completely overrun people would die that fast and it wouldn't be a freak occurrence at all.

You say everyone who is bitten dies within 3 or 4 days. That's a poor assumption to make about anyone who is bitten in TWD universe based on a few characters who got bitten on the show and got no proper medical care aside from a few bandages and well wishes.

At this point I firmly believe that you dislike me and are intentionally being irrational to bait an offensive response. Bite = Death is established in this universe. I really don't understand how you can get more clear cut than that. In all the years that this comic has been published, if a bite was treatable then Kirkman would have shown it possible instead of revisiting the same type of Villain for the 2nd time now. As for your constant squabble about infections and sepsis, those still take a while to set in. You aren't going to instantly have an infection if a dog bites you. It has to remain unclean for a few days, then it becomes infected, after infection it still has to remain unclean before finally spreading into your blood stream and causing death. All of that wholly decides on the infected individual and doesn't always spell death for them and is easily treated with antibiotics. Don't you think if a bite was treatable by antibiotics, then we'd see more than one bite survivor (who is actually only alive due to amputation)? Don't you think Hershel would have had antibiotics and prevented the death of his (many) sons who were bitten?

This is categorically false. From the second an open wound makes contact with just about anything there is risk of infection. It takes time for the infection to manifest itself in things that we notice, like inflammation, puss, etc. the time between initial contact and these signs, like I said, can very from a couple hours to a couple days. Your logic about seeing a bite survivor isn't based in the world of the comic either. The chances of seeing other survivors period at this point in time have declined dramatically. In one of the earliest comics Kirkman answered a question saying the ratio of zombies to survivors is approximately 5000 to 1. So on top of that the chances of meeting someone who was bit and survived are slim, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. Hershel was a veterinarian turned farmer, not a proper doctor, so no he probably didn't have the necessary stuff.
Moderator
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
October 22 2012 14:09 GMT
#4500
On October 22 2012 23:04 blug wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2012 22:33 rei wrote:
what kind of bullshit is this? if everybody already infected and only reanimated when they die then why would ppl turn undead while alive when they merely were bitten? Getting bit in the fucking leg will not kill a normal human being. Then there must be something in the undead's saliva that reacts with the virus already in the host? but if that's the case wouldn't all the host's own saliva turn react with the virus? or would it be that the virus only exist in the blood stream, and the human immune system produces something that try to counter the virus but also puts something in the saliva as a by-product. and if a live host ever lick his own wound he would turn to undead. So what in the fuck? somebody explain.


That's what I don't really understand, I personally think the whole "We are all infected" thing doesn't make all that much sense. You could argue that the Zombies saliva paired with the wound just causes the infection to go out of control and just fucks up with your immune system. However, if you already are infected, does that mean if you cut your leg accidentally does that mean you will turn since you are already infected?

Perhaps the infection within the Zombies is a mutated strain of the virus and if that gets paired with a regular persons blood stream they get fucked over.



You cannot turn into a zombie unless you die. You need to die in order to come back as a zombie. Read my post above.
Life?
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