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On February 21 2018 01:30 Xurr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2018 01:25 spudde123 wrote:
Fnatic hasn't yet shown to be a major threat for the top placings. I don't think they've become worse with Uni or anything, it's just that there is quite a gap from where they were to beating TL or Secret in a bo3. In the NaVi game they had a few blunders but importantly they were constantly keeping the lanes out and never got caught out in a terrible position where NaVi could take rosh or threaten buildings.
With Kinguin beating Newbee, one of Fnatic and Kinguin is guaranteed to make it to the playoffs and get top6. Still need to beat one of the top teams to get to the points though That is the point though, i can't really give them credit for constantly pushing the waves if they play with Viper, Rhasta and most importantly Tinker, how is that an accomplishment?
Unless you plan on discrediting Liquid or others who also played alot of splitpush, a win is a win. Should we start discrediting every lycan/AM/sylabear game that liquid or secret?
You play on the strengths of your drafts unless you are one of those who only believe that fighting is the only way to play dota and ignore things like mapreading/taking advantage of hero strenngths LOL
I do think Fnatic is playing suboptimal to what is required to excel though. With that kind of performance i doubt they'll get top 8 even
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On February 21 2018 01:49 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2018 01:30 Xurr wrote:On February 21 2018 01:25 spudde123 wrote:
Fnatic hasn't yet shown to be a major threat for the top placings. I don't think they've become worse with Uni or anything, it's just that there is quite a gap from where they were to beating TL or Secret in a bo3. In the NaVi game they had a few blunders but importantly they were constantly keeping the lanes out and never got caught out in a terrible position where NaVi could take rosh or threaten buildings.
With Kinguin beating Newbee, one of Fnatic and Kinguin is guaranteed to make it to the playoffs and get top6. Still need to beat one of the top teams to get to the points though That is the point though, i can't really give them credit for constantly pushing the waves if they play with Viper, Rhasta and most importantly Tinker, how is that an accomplishment? Unless you plan on discrediting Liquid or others who also played alot of splitpush, a win is a win. Should we start discrediting every lycan/AM/sylabear game that liquid or secret? You play on the strengths of your drafts unless you are one of those who only believe that fighting is the only way to play dota and ignore things like mapreading/taking advantage of hero strenngths LOL I do think Fnatic is playing suboptimal to what is required to excel though. With that kind of performance i doubt they'll get top 8 even
Well they only need to beat Kinguin in the next game to get guaranteed top6 given what the format is. But placings behind top4 are relatively meaningless
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On February 21 2018 01:49 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2018 01:30 Xurr wrote:On February 21 2018 01:25 spudde123 wrote:
Fnatic hasn't yet shown to be a major threat for the top placings. I don't think they've become worse with Uni or anything, it's just that there is quite a gap from where they were to beating TL or Secret in a bo3. In the NaVi game they had a few blunders but importantly they were constantly keeping the lanes out and never got caught out in a terrible position where NaVi could take rosh or threaten buildings.
With Kinguin beating Newbee, one of Fnatic and Kinguin is guaranteed to make it to the playoffs and get top6. Still need to beat one of the top teams to get to the points though That is the point though, i can't really give them credit for constantly pushing the waves if they play with Viper, Rhasta and most importantly Tinker, how is that an accomplishment? Unless you plan on discrediting Liquid or others who also played alot of splitpush, a win is a win. Should we start discrediting every lycan/AM/sylabear game that liquid or secret? You play on the strengths of your drafts unless you are one of those who only believe that fighting is the only way to play dota and ignore things like mapreading/taking advantage of hero strenngths LOL I do think Fnatic is playing suboptimal to what is required to excel though.
My first point was that Fnatic was not impressive, nothing else. Main reason for that is that EE is just bad and should not be on a team that wants to be t1 or even t2.
At no point did I say anything against split pushing in general.
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Me an Kuro both use same mouse with the pink setting because we know. I'm basically a pro now.
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It's really hard to tell though. Fnatic weren't even close to losing that game honestly. Split push playstyles always look worse against weaker teams because you can only win the game through small little advantages over time instead of dominating the enemy.
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On February 21 2018 01:53 Xurr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2018 01:49 goody153 wrote:On February 21 2018 01:30 Xurr wrote:On February 21 2018 01:25 spudde123 wrote:
Fnatic hasn't yet shown to be a major threat for the top placings. I don't think they've become worse with Uni or anything, it's just that there is quite a gap from where they were to beating TL or Secret in a bo3. In the NaVi game they had a few blunders but importantly they were constantly keeping the lanes out and never got caught out in a terrible position where NaVi could take rosh or threaten buildings.
With Kinguin beating Newbee, one of Fnatic and Kinguin is guaranteed to make it to the playoffs and get top6. Still need to beat one of the top teams to get to the points though That is the point though, i can't really give them credit for constantly pushing the waves if they play with Viper, Rhasta and most importantly Tinker, how is that an accomplishment? Unless you plan on discrediting Liquid or others who also played alot of splitpush, a win is a win. Should we start discrediting every lycan/AM/sylabear game that liquid or secret? You play on the strengths of your drafts unless you are one of those who only believe that fighting is the only way to play dota and ignore things like mapreading/taking advantage of hero strenngths LOL I do think Fnatic is playing suboptimal to what is required to excel though. My first point was that Fnatic was not impressive, nothing else. Main reason for that is that EE is just bad and should not be on a team that wants to be t1 or even t2. At no point did I say anything against split pushing in general.
Yah Fnatic is not impressive in terms of the best of the best that i completely agree. Your reason though ROFL
That's just stupid considering he has done well in the past a couple of times and has actually managed to place top 3 in every team in tournament despite having any kind of player(sometimes just players who never accomplished anything note-worthy) in his team. Also did you forget he introduced tons of strategies that is used in competitive dota nowadays. Evidence doesn't really suggest his bad compared to alot of players who only have managed success under a well-known captain(which includes 4 on your favorite team lol) and nothing else on their own time.
Without EE fnatic is seriously just another high mmr stack. Have you not followed pro-dota in a long time ? If you did you'd know the insane amount of teams have been formed in EU/NA/Sea that are completely irrelevant that had the players you know who are playing with the best teams nowadays(secret/liquid) they had countless completely irrelevant teams formed.
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On February 21 2018 01:53 Xurr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2018 01:49 goody153 wrote:On February 21 2018 01:30 Xurr wrote:On February 21 2018 01:25 spudde123 wrote:
Fnatic hasn't yet shown to be a major threat for the top placings. I don't think they've become worse with Uni or anything, it's just that there is quite a gap from where they were to beating TL or Secret in a bo3. In the NaVi game they had a few blunders but importantly they were constantly keeping the lanes out and never got caught out in a terrible position where NaVi could take rosh or threaten buildings.
With Kinguin beating Newbee, one of Fnatic and Kinguin is guaranteed to make it to the playoffs and get top6. Still need to beat one of the top teams to get to the points though That is the point though, i can't really give them credit for constantly pushing the waves if they play with Viper, Rhasta and most importantly Tinker, how is that an accomplishment? Unless you plan on discrediting Liquid or others who also played alot of splitpush, a win is a win. Should we start discrediting every lycan/AM/sylabear game that liquid or secret? You play on the strengths of your drafts unless you are one of those who only believe that fighting is the only way to play dota and ignore things like mapreading/taking advantage of hero strenngths LOL I do think Fnatic is playing suboptimal to what is required to excel though. My first point was that Fnatic was not impressive, nothing else. Main reason for that is that EE is just bad and should not be on a team that wants to be t1 or even t2. At no point did I say anything against split pushing in general.
No matter how you dislike EE, he is part of the reason why Fnatic is actually relevant. If you followed him through the years, all his teams had a certain flavor on how to play around the map. It is very obvious he is the one imparting all the macro knowledge to his teammates.
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On February 21 2018 01:56 babysimba wrote:
It's really hard to tell though. Fnatic weren't even close to losing that game honestly. Split push playstyles always look worse against weaker teams because you can only win the game through small little advantages over time instead of dominating the enemy.
This. I think Blitz went completely overboard on the Na'Vi mid push where they had no bkbs, no ults, and had to back after natural respawns happened almost dying in the progress. This was the first time Na'Vi was on the side of Fnatics map in a while.
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I think the main "mistake" Fnatic did was that top push where NaVi wrapped on them. As far as I recall song was down and EE was sitting on 5k gold so I don't think Fnatic needed to be there. But other than that I don't know how they were supposed to look that impressive because their lineup wasn't designed to dominate the enemy through fighting but instead they largely wanted to dodge until they got damage from Tinker.
On February 21 2018 01:56 babysimba wrote:
It's really hard to tell though. Fnatic weren't even close to losing that game honestly. Split push playstyles always look worse against weaker teams because you can only win the game through small little advantages over time instead of dominating the enemy.
I think this style thing is partly why certain people always think coL looks impressive and is going to do well on LAN. When coL wins online quals, they often look very dominant because they pick heroes that have good laning and then group up and push fast. Their games are often over really early and look "dominant". But then they can look equally underwhelming when they pick a similar style against a better team and get stopped
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On February 21 2018 01:59 babysimba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2018 01:53 Xurr wrote:On February 21 2018 01:49 goody153 wrote:On February 21 2018 01:30 Xurr wrote:On February 21 2018 01:25 spudde123 wrote:
Fnatic hasn't yet shown to be a major threat for the top placings. I don't think they've become worse with Uni or anything, it's just that there is quite a gap from where they were to beating TL or Secret in a bo3. In the NaVi game they had a few blunders but importantly they were constantly keeping the lanes out and never got caught out in a terrible position where NaVi could take rosh or threaten buildings.
With Kinguin beating Newbee, one of Fnatic and Kinguin is guaranteed to make it to the playoffs and get top6. Still need to beat one of the top teams to get to the points though That is the point though, i can't really give them credit for constantly pushing the waves if they play with Viper, Rhasta and most importantly Tinker, how is that an accomplishment? Unless you plan on discrediting Liquid or others who also played alot of splitpush, a win is a win. Should we start discrediting every lycan/AM/sylabear game that liquid or secret? You play on the strengths of your drafts unless you are one of those who only believe that fighting is the only way to play dota and ignore things like mapreading/taking advantage of hero strenngths LOL I do think Fnatic is playing suboptimal to what is required to excel though. My first point was that Fnatic was not impressive, nothing else. Main reason for that is that EE is just bad and should not be on a team that wants to be t1 or even t2. At no point did I say anything against split pushing in general. No matter how you dislike EE, he is part of the reason why Fnatic is actually relevant. If you followed him through the years, all his teams had a certain flavor on how to play around the map. It is very obvious he is the one imparting all the macro knowledge to his teammates.
Yes he would be able to do that as a coach just as well though. His play is just not good enough anymore. Everything I'm reading is about how good he was 2+ years back. At some point your past accomplishments mean nothing if you are just a shadow of your former self in game. Why do you think did he move to Sea? Might be because he couldnt find any decent team NA or EU anymore and believed he would have an easier time getting through qualifiers?
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at least this liquid vs vg doesn't look too one sided
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
Liquid looks like they have second pos 3 heroe and a pos 4 instead of having a pos 4 and a pos 5 this game. MC's Tiny looks like it's a 4 and not 3 here, tho. Guess that balances it out.
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Well say what you will about EE. He doesn’t seem nearly as lost as Navi have been this month.
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On February 21 2018 02:16 cecek wrote:
Liquid looks like they have second pos 3 heroe and a pos 4 instead of having a pos 4 and a pos 5 this game.
Might be problematic, Tiny not really a hero that does much without farm.
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On February 21 2018 02:11 Xurr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2018 01:59 babysimba wrote:On February 21 2018 01:53 Xurr wrote:On February 21 2018 01:49 goody153 wrote:On February 21 2018 01:30 Xurr wrote:On February 21 2018 01:25 spudde123 wrote:
Fnatic hasn't yet shown to be a major threat for the top placings. I don't think they've become worse with Uni or anything, it's just that there is quite a gap from where they were to beating TL or Secret in a bo3. In the NaVi game they had a few blunders but importantly they were constantly keeping the lanes out and never got caught out in a terrible position where NaVi could take rosh or threaten buildings.
With Kinguin beating Newbee, one of Fnatic and Kinguin is guaranteed to make it to the playoffs and get top6. Still need to beat one of the top teams to get to the points though That is the point though, i can't really give them credit for constantly pushing the waves if they play with Viper, Rhasta and most importantly Tinker, how is that an accomplishment? Unless you plan on discrediting Liquid or others who also played alot of splitpush, a win is a win. Should we start discrediting every lycan/AM/sylabear game that liquid or secret? You play on the strengths of your drafts unless you are one of those who only believe that fighting is the only way to play dota and ignore things like mapreading/taking advantage of hero strenngths LOL I do think Fnatic is playing suboptimal to what is required to excel though. My first point was that Fnatic was not impressive, nothing else. Main reason for that is that EE is just bad and should not be on a team that wants to be t1 or even t2. At no point did I say anything against split pushing in general. No matter how you dislike EE, he is part of the reason why Fnatic is actually relevant. If you followed him through the years, all his teams had a certain flavor on how to play around the map. It is very obvious he is the one imparting all the macro knowledge to his teammates. Yes he would be able to do that as a coach just as well though. His play is just not good enough anymore. Everything I'm reading is about how good he was 2+ years back. At some point your past accomplishments mean nothing if you are just a shadow of your former self in game. Why do you think did he move to Sea? Might be because he couldnt find any decent team NA or EU anymore and believed he would have an easier time getting through qualifiers?
Your arguments kinda feel like a moot point to be honest. It's just badly thought out under heavy bias
At some point your past accomplishments mean nothing if you are just a shadow of your former self in game.
How many times have i heard this kind of statement before when it came to misery, fear and rotk where they just looked horrendous (pre-ti4 VG/pre-ppd eg/pre-DC/secret misery) then they accomplished shit suddenly. Even faith and burning had that before but they still managed to accomplish something. EE's team still placed 2nd in a decent tournament this year and this is the EE that you call "bad". Can't really count out previously notable players out
Eh he still accomplished more than majority of the "teams that had no space for him" this year. And if you think it's about "getting an easier qualification that he moved SEA" then you absolutely know nothing about competitive environment and i'm disgusted how you even think somebody who competes so hard would settle for a mediocrity mindset.
In fact i think you've never have a glimpse on sports on anything or relatively competitive yourself if you think people would actually settle for mediocrity(hur hur i'm a midtier player i will not try harder) ROFL
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3 Chinese games - 3 Naga Sirens. They sure love their singing and it works. This hero that is 2nd on my hate list is actually quite popular this tourney.
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oh, just realized it's a bo3 from now on. This will be such a good series tbh.
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On February 21 2018 02:25 BlazingGlory wrote:
3 Chinese games - 3 Naga Sirens. They sure love their singing and it works. This hero that is 2nd on my hate list is actually quite popular this tourney.
Naga has always been on alot of people's hate list. Regardless if it's played core or support
Can't blame you people though since the pros just make the hero look so effective but please no more nerf on the hero. Carry naga isn't even viable anymore
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On February 21 2018 02:11 Xurr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2018 01:59 babysimba wrote:On February 21 2018 01:53 Xurr wrote:On February 21 2018 01:49 goody153 wrote:On February 21 2018 01:30 Xurr wrote:On February 21 2018 01:25 spudde123 wrote:
Fnatic hasn't yet shown to be a major threat for the top placings. I don't think they've become worse with Uni or anything, it's just that there is quite a gap from where they were to beating TL or Secret in a bo3. In the NaVi game they had a few blunders but importantly they were constantly keeping the lanes out and never got caught out in a terrible position where NaVi could take rosh or threaten buildings.
With Kinguin beating Newbee, one of Fnatic and Kinguin is guaranteed to make it to the playoffs and get top6. Still need to beat one of the top teams to get to the points though That is the point though, i can't really give them credit for constantly pushing the waves if they play with Viper, Rhasta and most importantly Tinker, how is that an accomplishment? Unless you plan on discrediting Liquid or others who also played alot of splitpush, a win is a win. Should we start discrediting every lycan/AM/sylabear game that liquid or secret? You play on the strengths of your drafts unless you are one of those who only believe that fighting is the only way to play dota and ignore things like mapreading/taking advantage of hero strenngths LOL I do think Fnatic is playing suboptimal to what is required to excel though. My first point was that Fnatic was not impressive, nothing else. Main reason for that is that EE is just bad and should not be on a team that wants to be t1 or even t2. At no point did I say anything against split pushing in general. No matter how you dislike EE, he is part of the reason why Fnatic is actually relevant. If you followed him through the years, all his teams had a certain flavor on how to play around the map. It is very obvious he is the one imparting all the macro knowledge to his teammates. Yes he would be able to do that as a coach just as well though. His play is just not good enough anymore. Everything I'm reading is about how good he was 2+ years back. At some point your past accomplishments mean nothing if you are just a shadow of your former self in game. Why do you think did he move to Sea? Might be because he couldnt find any decent team NA or EU anymore and believed he would have an easier time getting through qualifiers?
Except he is still not that bad at all. His plays still shows he has a high understanding of the game. Macro understanding as a carry is even more important when you have a flashy mid who is too busy to think about the overall game state.
You need to have a core player in the game itself who understands the game well to judge timings of lineups. You can't have a coach doing that. A support player can't be doing that either because he can't judge accurately as a non-core.
You are also contradicting yourself because time has proven NA has become trash and EU has no more good players outside those established teams.
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EPT
