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Dysisa
Sweden2376 Posts
On January 30 2016 00:49 hariooo wrote: Fly carried Col to the second-worst possible placing at TI5... He's literally had zero real success with a non-Miracle team. Getting 9-12th with that squad is somehow not considered a success? Get real, lmao. Results other than first can be considered a success, it's all relative to who achieves them. | ||
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Super_Style
296 Posts
On January 30 2016 00:53 Zinbiel wrote: Not necessarily related to this game but from what I have seen from following pro-dota during the last 8 years and having played it on a decent level as well for the last 4 my assessment is that miracle is the most gifted player mechanically I have ever seen. Is he the best player period? Hard to say, too much going on at that level for me to judge his game sense, movements and teamwork compared to other top players but if Fata and Matumba says he is the best, I would not be hard to convince. That is the point, he doesnt have to be the absolute best in every single aspect of the game to be the best in the world. Just better then the next best. Im pretty sure Messi is a shit goalkeeper. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On January 30 2016 00:50 Super_Style wrote: So everything Messi does is just because his team provided space and support, he is just as good as every other "flashy" player in the world? Ever stopped to wonder that maybe just maybe, Miracle is the one that makes OG shine and not the other way around. Game 1 vs eg he won pretty much alone, that does happen, even in dota. Miracle is running their playmaking cores, while noTail is running their more stable cores. The way OG is drafting (or screwing up their drafts) is creating a lot of room for Miracle to make plays. Which he is. It's a lot like how EG ran with Sumail & Fear at TI5. So Miracle is having a great tournament. Let's see how it plays out as the meta progresses. | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
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Racket
3023 Posts
On January 30 2016 00:50 Super_Style wrote: So everything Messi does is just because his team provided space and support, he is just as good as every other "flashy" player in the world? Ever stopped to wonder that maybe just maybe, Miracle is the one that makes OG shine and not the other way around. Game 1 vs eg he won pretty much alone, that does happen, even in dota. Did you see Messi playing in his national team? He actually plays quite differently because he is given a different role and the weight he must pull is way heavier, the players around him and the quality of those is on a different level. The discussion going around in Argentina is that Messi is worse than Maradona because he can't carry his team (a better team in some people's eyes) in the world cup like Maradona did, truth or lie, that is what is going around. On the other hand, what I have seen Messi do with his feet, only a few other matched it and not so many times as he does it. Miracle for comparison's sake does what I see players do for the last four or five years at least. | ||
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Super_Style
296 Posts
On January 30 2016 00:55 Orome wrote: You're taking something reasonable (Miracle's probably THE standout player since TI) and going unreasonable places with it. OG wouldn't fall to pieces without Miracle, though they would definitely be weakened (how much none of us can say, let's stop pretending). Miracle couldn't carry any 4 players to relevancy. And GOAT candidates in Dota 2 are people like Puppey or Xiao8, who's won a TI and gotten top 3 3 times playing 3 different positions. Not a guy whose career accomplishments are winning 2 tournaments that aren't TI. Did you just compare people who played this game for 10 years to a guy whos been playing it for 6 months? And no one here is talking about whos the best in the history of dota, we are talking whos best right now. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On January 30 2016 01:00 Super_Style wrote: Did you just compare people who played this game for 10 years to a guy whos been playing it for 6 months? And no one here is talking about whos the best in the history of dota, we are talking whos best right now. So that can change tomorrow? Nice discussion we have going on... | ||
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molecu
347 Posts
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
On January 30 2016 00:32 Valhalla44 wrote: Fly is smth like ppd. Not great mechanical player but his game knowledge is quite great and his shows that in drafting. Fly carried coL to that good ti5 result. i think that flys technical skill is often overlooked because he tends to play the passive pos 5 support heroes. on col it was him dragging the whole team to victories on heroes like tusk or lina and he really showed that he can make the difference. but otherwise i agree, fly is one of the top tier captains and had decent results with both fnatic and col. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On January 30 2016 01:00 Super_Style wrote: Did you just compare people who played this game for 10 years to a guy whos been playing it for 6 months? And no one here is talking about whos the best in the history of dota, we are talking whos best right now. Actually the guy I quoted did that. And the guy I quoted DID talk about who is the best in the history of dota. Not everyone's replying to you. | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
On January 30 2016 00:49 hariooo wrote: They were 9-12 out of 16 teams. They were 3rd in group stages. Way above the expectations.Fly carried Col to the second-worst possible placing at TI5... He's literally had zero real success with a non-Miracle team. Zero success? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Fly and that is just in Dota. Thanks for showing you are ignorant, and your willingness to do so. | ||
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Super_Style
296 Posts
On January 30 2016 01:02 Racket wrote: So that can change tomorrow? Nice discussion we have going on... Of course its subject to change, maybe tomorrow Miracle breaks his arm and quits dota.(ok im going overboard on this one) But ye esport careers are short and best team and best players in the world change frequently. Im not saying tomorrow but its possible for shanghai meta changes that doesnt fit miracle and og loses in group stages due to his poor performance. All im saying is that right now, in this moment, in this patch, he is the best player. I mean even pro players agree on this, you should hear matumbaman stream and how fata faps to everything Miracle does. | ||
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molecu
347 Posts
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
On January 30 2016 01:00 Super_Style wrote: Miracle has played longer than 6 months.Did you just compare people who played this game for 10 years to a guy whos been playing it for 6 months? And no one here is talking about whos the best in the history of dota, we are talking whos best right now. He started playing on Balkan Bears 1 year ago, with W33, and they didn't do anything at tier 3 tournaments. I hope it answers yours, and others questions. | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
On January 30 2016 01:11 molecu wrote: Repeating one guys ignorance is not very smart.Well to be honest I have low opinions on Fly, Moon and Notail so I massively overrate how Miracle is carrying OG and massively underrate the rest of OG. Like the other guy said, Fly and Moon had never had success outside of Miracle team. Also I never said Miracle could carry any 4 players, what I meant was teams with tier 1 mids like Liquid, Alliance, or EG. So swap in Miracle for them and they have very high chance of winning the major. And just how good Miracle is playing I'm tempted to nominate Miracle GOAT candidacy if OG wins the Major. Fly has been to 3 TIs. Obviously Miracle is good, but it is the team that puts him in this spot. When he falters the team lifts him. He nearly cost OG game 2 twice, and it was their defence, that held so Miracle could backdoor, which was done on Flys command, and yet people talk about Miracle as if it is all on him. | ||
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Kamisamanachi
4665 Posts
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
On January 30 2016 01:11 molecu wrote: Well to be honest I have low opinions on Fly, Moon and Notail so I massively overrate how Miracle is carrying OG and massively underrate the rest of OG. Like the other guy said, Fly and Moon had never had success outside of Miracle team. Also I never said Miracle could carry any 4 players, what I meant was teams with tier 1 mids like Liquid, Alliance, or EG. So swap in Miracle for them and they have very high chance of winning the major. And just how good Miracle is playing I'm tempted to nominate Miracle GOAT candidacy if OG wins the Major. I've never liked the old fnatic squad much or any of their players specifically, but to say that Fly 'never had success' before is fucking dumb, lol. Just because you don't win a TI doesn't mean you're not successful. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On January 30 2016 00:53 haxhax wrote: Col, a team with four players that had never even attended a Dota LAN before getting 9-12th at TI. Anyway, haters gonna downplay. It's on the level of Bulba going apeshit over getting 8th place. You have players way better than Fly getting shit on after every poor performance but because Fly is likable, him doing well the last few months for the first time in his career means revisionist history of his entire career of how he was always great. On January 30 2016 01:06 Dracolich70 wrote: They were 9-12 out of 16 teams. They were 3rd in group stages. Way above the expectations. Zero success? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Fly and that is just in Dota. Thanks for showing you are ignorant, and your willingness to do so. Group stage is irrelevant. They finished one placing better than last place. I mean I guess that's not bad but... lol. And you can link his wiki all you like but all I see are failures at major tournaments and consistent tier 3 performance at TI's. Of course he's doing well now but can people take it in context without acting like he's doing something amazing? Before Frankfurt he was like a top 50 player at best | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2016 01:53 hariooo wrote: It's on the level of Bulba going apeshit over getting 8th place. You have players way better than Fly getting shit on after every poor performance but because Fly is likable, him doing well the last few months for the first time in his career means revisionist history of his entire career of how he was always great. I think the revisionist history part of things is dumb. Personally, I found Fly to be a wholly unimpressive player during his time on Fnatic and he never really stood out to me in any way. That said, I think you do have to acknowledge his tremendous growth as a player during the period since Fnatic's disbanding and him joining OG. Fly played visibly better over the course of his stay on coL and by the time he was on OG, you could definitely say that on an individual level, he was a far better DotA 2 player than he was when he was on Fnatic. | ||
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