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On January 29 2016 02:01 haxhax wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 01:41 Super_Style wrote:
RTZ has been sacked heavily this tournament, he played more jungle and offline then he did safelane free farm.
Also Notail isnt being sacked, he just falls behind on his own(unless meepo or tiny), OG is playing like a 4 man premade with 1 random dude doing random stuff alone and isnt part of any team movement.
And it feels like in this version of secret that EE struggles to perform when w33 requires heavy farm and attention, he doesnt really feel all too useful. And their best games have been 4 protect one with EE ember getting farm in all 3 lanes and jungle. I dont see EE performing amazingly if he isnt the most farmed hero in the game. However most of secret wins came from 2 farming sidelanes and mid space creator, so sacking w33 as a carry for misery LD. He deliberately leaves the easy farm for Miracle when he's not playing the primary carry. And he usually isn't. Unless he's playing - you guessed it - meepo or tiny. You think n0tail can't farm? He got the 6th highest gpm recorded in 2015, only beat by players on low rated teams playing other low rated teams. He plays carries with a lot of fighting capacity early on. Gyro and PL are prime examples. We've also seen him play Brew a fair bit, a hero on which he stops farming creeps on almost entirely after getting blink dagger, leaving the remaining farm to moon. It's not an accident that he farms less in these games. Also getting sacked means getting fired. It's sac'ed or sacced. As in sacrificed.
So because he had a single amazing game were he set a record gpm that means that hes the best carry in the world and he never ever tilts ? Because thats what you 2 make him out to be. And we are not talking about brew games, we are talking carry games, when its 30-20 for OG and hes 0-7-2 gyro with same net worth as crit.
Honestly there is no other way to solve this then to ask a simple question, do you 2 believe notail is a better safe lane carry then EE?
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This conversation took a funny turn.
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How many games has EE started offlane and sacked himself to get a good start for Misery...? Is this even debatable? You can't gaslight an entire thread of posters that's not how it works.
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On January 29 2016 02:14 Super_Style wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 02:01 haxhax wrote:On January 29 2016 01:41 Super_Style wrote:
RTZ has been sacked heavily this tournament, he played more jungle and offline then he did safelane free farm.
Also Notail isnt being sacked, he just falls behind on his own(unless meepo or tiny), OG is playing like a 4 man premade with 1 random dude doing random stuff alone and isnt part of any team movement.
And it feels like in this version of secret that EE struggles to perform when w33 requires heavy farm and attention, he doesnt really feel all too useful. And their best games have been 4 protect one with EE ember getting farm in all 3 lanes and jungle. I dont see EE performing amazingly if he isnt the most farmed hero in the game. However most of secret wins came from 2 farming sidelanes and mid space creator, so sacking w33 as a carry for misery LD. He deliberately leaves the easy farm for Miracle when he's not playing the primary carry. And he usually isn't. Unless he's playing - you guessed it - meepo or tiny. You think n0tail can't farm? He got the 6th highest gpm recorded in 2015, only beat by players on low rated teams playing other low rated teams. He plays carries with a lot of fighting capacity early on. Gyro and PL are prime examples. We've also seen him play Brew a fair bit, a hero on which he stops farming creeps on almost entirely after getting blink dagger, leaving the remaining farm to moon. It's not an accident that he farms less in these games. Also getting sacked means getting fired. It's sac'ed or sacced. As in sacrificed. So because he had a single amazing game were he set a record gpm that means that hes the best carry in the world and he never ever tilts ? Because thats what you 2 make him out to be.
Nobody is saying that you royal twit. And OG is no doubt better off with n0tail than they would be with EE.
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On January 29 2016 02:18 haxhax wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 02:14 Super_Style wrote:On January 29 2016 02:01 haxhax wrote:On January 29 2016 01:41 Super_Style wrote:
RTZ has been sacked heavily this tournament, he played more jungle and offline then he did safelane free farm.
Also Notail isnt being sacked, he just falls behind on his own(unless meepo or tiny), OG is playing like a 4 man premade with 1 random dude doing random stuff alone and isnt part of any team movement.
And it feels like in this version of secret that EE struggles to perform when w33 requires heavy farm and attention, he doesnt really feel all too useful. And their best games have been 4 protect one with EE ember getting farm in all 3 lanes and jungle. I dont see EE performing amazingly if he isnt the most farmed hero in the game. However most of secret wins came from 2 farming sidelanes and mid space creator, so sacking w33 as a carry for misery LD. He deliberately leaves the easy farm for Miracle when he's not playing the primary carry. And he usually isn't. Unless he's playing - you guessed it - meepo or tiny. You think n0tail can't farm? He got the 6th highest gpm recorded in 2015, only beat by players on low rated teams playing other low rated teams. He plays carries with a lot of fighting capacity early on. Gyro and PL are prime examples. We've also seen him play Brew a fair bit, a hero on which he stops farming creeps on almost entirely after getting blink dagger, leaving the remaining farm to moon. It's not an accident that he farms less in these games. Also getting sacked means getting fired. It's sac'ed or sacced. As in sacrificed. So because he had a single amazing game were he set a record gpm that means that hes the best carry in the world and he never ever tilts ? Because thats what you 2 make him out to be. Nobody is saying that you royal twit.
Actually the other OG flair guy did, you just came into discussion later. I can quote it if you want.
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But you're responding to me. But sure, I'll entertain you. Go on ahead and find the comment where somebody is saying that n0tail is the best carry in the world.
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I think the most valuable thing about n0tail is that he is sort of able to play anything, this allows the team to be built around Miracle and they can pull off certain heroes that give them heavy draft advantages every once in a while. Sometimes he has very questionable games but who cares really if the team wins. Also one of their key drafting edges is due to Wisp+Tiny which no doubt comes quite a bit from n0tail's understanding of how to play it.
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On January 29 2016 02:22 haxhax wrote:
But you're responding to me. But sure, I'll entertain you. Go on ahead and find the comment where somebody is saying that n0tail is the best carry in the world.
"Btw i expanded my point before you never responded to that with actually something related to it either to rebuke and state why or agree instead responded with that flame.". Is it not true Misery and EE tilts? That is pretty relevant to how they respond to being focused. N0tail doesn't tilt, due to that, nor the team. It goes hand in hand with my argument.
I wasnt responding to you personally, if you read carefully you'd notice i said "you 2", as in you and the other guy, not just you.
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So the comment doesn't exist then. Alrighty.
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On January 29 2016 02:25 spudde123 wrote:
I think the most valuable thing about n0tail is that he is sort of able to play anything, this allows the team to be built around Miracle and they can pull off certain heroes that give them heavy draft advantages every once in a while. Sometimes he has very questionable games but who cares really if the team wins.Also one of their key drafting edges is due to Wisp+Tiny which no doubt comes quite a bit from n0tail's understanding of how to play it.
Yeah though he's not really impressive as a carry in a traditional sense he does contribute in some other way(probably more ingame than anything).
Though if the team is better with him or another proven more effective carry is another question. It could probably end up like maybe vs shiki difference from cdec or the sing vs fata difference of old c9 with aui
well he should understand tiny-wisp he literally been to both sides of the coin and he's an impressive wisp player probably the best from the west as far as i've seen
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On January 29 2016 02:25 spudde123 wrote:
I think the most valuable thing about n0tail is that he is sort of able to play anything, this allows the team to be built around Miracle and they can pull off certain heroes that give them heavy draft advantages every once in a while. Sometimes he has very questionable games but who cares really if the team wins
But that is the whole point of this, imagine if OG as good as they are had someone who didnt have very questionable games often... Just imagine how good they would be.
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Due to the stupidly good early game supports like ES, disruptor, Lion, oracle in play this patch. The safelane and mid are going to be heavily pressured from the very beginning, This will make it hard for a traditional dual core team with two greedy players.
One significant sign of the early game pressure is that there are less jungle stacks in this tournament. The supports are just too busy moving around instead of stacking. Both EG and Secret seemed struggling in trying to protect their carries while their Chinese counterpart just picked more aggressive support, because Chinese carries are more used to being sacked early game,
Meanwhile, the offlane #3 position is having a better day due to the camp change, we have seen numbers of games that the #3 getting better farm than the mid or safelane. So maybe a farmed #1#3 and a less-consuming tempo-based #2 is the better answer, which means Alliance.
Players like FATA/S4/notail should be given more credits this patch, the ability of consuming less team resources but still being effective as a carry is extremely valuable.
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On January 29 2016 02:14 Super_Style wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 02:01 haxhax wrote:On January 29 2016 01:41 Super_Style wrote:
RTZ has been sacked heavily this tournament, he played more jungle and offline then he did safelane free farm.
Also Notail isnt being sacked, he just falls behind on his own(unless meepo or tiny), OG is playing like a 4 man premade with 1 random dude doing random stuff alone and isnt part of any team movement.
And it feels like in this version of secret that EE struggles to perform when w33 requires heavy farm and attention, he doesnt really feel all too useful. And their best games have been 4 protect one with EE ember getting farm in all 3 lanes and jungle. I dont see EE performing amazingly if he isnt the most farmed hero in the game. However most of secret wins came from 2 farming sidelanes and mid space creator, so sacking w33 as a carry for misery LD. He deliberately leaves the easy farm for Miracle when he's not playing the primary carry. And he usually isn't. Unless he's playing - you guessed it - meepo or tiny. You think n0tail can't farm? He got the 6th highest gpm recorded in 2015, only beat by players on low rated teams playing other low rated teams. He plays carries with a lot of fighting capacity early on. Gyro and PL are prime examples. We've also seen him play Brew a fair bit, a hero on which he stops farming creeps on almost entirely after getting blink dagger, leaving the remaining farm to moon. It's not an accident that he farms less in these games. Also getting sacked means getting fired. It's sac'ed or sacced. As in sacrificed. So because he had a single amazing game were he set a record gpm that means that hes the best carry in the world and he never ever tilts ? Because thats what you 2 make him out to be. And we are not talking about brew games, we are talking carry games, when its 30-20 for OG and hes 0-7-2 gyro with same net worth as crit. Honestly there is no other way to solve this then to ask a simple question, do you 2 believe notail is a better safe lane carry then EE? N0tail fits the style of OG, which is why they are successful at 70+% winrate.
He gets flak from people that don't understand strategy or the depth of dota. In essence people that are clueless, and only understand flashy players like Miracle, and fail to understand that much of Miracle's easy integration into top dota, is much due to N0tails teamspirit and space creation.
How well did Balkan Bears do featuring both W33 and Miracle? Non factor.
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On January 29 2016 02:31 Super_Style wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 02:25 spudde123 wrote:
I think the most valuable thing about n0tail is that he is sort of able to play anything, this allows the team to be built around Miracle and they can pull off certain heroes that give them heavy draft advantages every once in a while. Sometimes he has very questionable games but who cares really if the team wins But that is the whole point of this, imagine if OG as good as they are had someone who didnt have very questionable games often... Just imagine how good they would be.
I think you just don't get it, you think N0tail is underfarmed because he sucks or something. Even though N0tail is playing the position 1, most times his role is to create space for miracle and moon. He is a fake 1, used to draw attention to himself and let the team build around Miracle.
N0tail fits OG perfectly because of his big hero pool and willing to sacrifice himself for a more even gold spread. It's called strategy and even though you may think it sucks it seems to work for OG.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Guys, i missed the fun.
how did Azarkon react to EG losing to EHOME of all teams?
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On January 29 2016 03:01 lolfail9001 wrote:
Guys, i missed the fun.
how did Azarkon react to EG losing to EHOME of all teams? I think he is used to EG going to lower bracket.
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On January 29 2016 02:31 Super_Style wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 02:25 spudde123 wrote:
I think the most valuable thing about n0tail is that he is sort of able to play anything, this allows the team to be built around Miracle and they can pull off certain heroes that give them heavy draft advantages every once in a while. Sometimes he has very questionable games but who cares really if the team wins But that is the whole point of this, imagine if OG as good as they are had someone who didnt have very questionable games often... Just imagine how good they would be.
It's always hard to say change how bringing in a new player would change the team. Noone can know from the outside how a team works exactly. A lot of people were raving for example about VG when Hao replaced Black, but instead their results got a bit worse overall unless I'm mistaken. c9 thought they were upgrading when they got Misery & n0tail, but instead the new team just didn't work as well as the old one.
In n0tail's case for example at least I have the impression that he is fairly active in providing ideas in terms of how to play the game, how to draft, etc. Some things you can analyze from gameplay (though as we see in this thread with very different interpretations), some things are impossible to know without being with the team.
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On January 29 2016 03:01 lolfail9001 wrote:
Guys, i missed the fun.
how did Azarkon react to EG losing to EHOME of all teams?
not too interesting
nobody got triggered .. we gotta wait for more of his reaction for later
On January 29 2016 03:12 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 02:31 Super_Style wrote:On January 29 2016 02:25 spudde123 wrote:
I think the most valuable thing about n0tail is that he is sort of able to play anything, this allows the team to be built around Miracle and they can pull off certain heroes that give them heavy draft advantages every once in a while. Sometimes he has very questionable games but who cares really if the team wins But that is the whole point of this, imagine if OG as good as they are had someone who didnt have very questionable games often... Just imagine how good they would be. It's always hard to say change how bringing in a new player would change the team. Noone can know from the outside how a team works exactly. A lot of people were raving for example about VG when Hao replaced Black, but instead their results got a bit worse overall unless I'm mistaken. c9 thought they were upgrading when they got Misery & n0tail, but instead the new team just didn't work as well as the old one. In n0tail's case for example at least I have the impression that he is fairly active in providing ideas in terms of how to play the game, how to draft, etc. Some things you can analyze from gameplay (though as we see in this thread with very different interpretations), some things are impossible to know without being with the team.
Yeah some changes might actually ruin shit that worked out. You would be lucky if the change just meant like what happened when sing got swapped by fata which the team got generally better.
I honestly thought that Hao is the better carry than Black for VG (well i still do think so i mean generally Hao is better overall than black ) turns out while VG had shit times with black but they didn't peak too much like they did with black.
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On January 29 2016 02:03 goody153 wrote:Are you serious ? You literally did not address any actual discussion about the "sacked 1 position" that i addressed. You You avoided talking about sacked lanes for 1 position at all, you talked about "tilting" which the claim you made isn't even true. You didn't talk about the topic a all you just switched topic You trying to talk about EE doing something in C9(and still failing to counter my point of being willing to sacrifice for the greater good), when I talk about W33 and EE, where you both confirm this to be true, and that either one is being ganked unwillingly, and not part of the greater good, as opposed to OG, which was my argument, and I have even quoted you admitting.
You are trying to argue and while losing your points, you try to create another point not made(and still fail), and act like I am you, and have the audacity to claim I leaving my main argument made. Then you try to make another point that what OG does is not unique, and I should talk about other teams, rather than OG, while my argument still rings true. And finally you proceed to claim I say that EE sucks, when I did no such thing.
How is EE and Misery tilting not true? C9 were infamous for being tilters, being very emotional players.
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Goody may not be expressing himself the best but come on dude. You may have a point in OG supports using their time better in deciding who to protect and when and where to be than EG or Secret currently (if that was part of your point), but the way you worded things originally is just bullshit, as proven by how Secret has done things in a lot of games after they were formed.
Also pretty sure when Goody talks about the "EE sucking" comment it is about you saying "EE tilts" out of nowhere when it apparently had no relevance to the discussion.
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EPT
