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Teton
France1656 Posts
On June 16 2014 08:02 CosmicSpiral wrote: Rhetorical question. It's impossible to do. Fast Midas -> Treads -> Aghs with near-optimal farm completes at level 10. How is getting PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before 24minutes impossible? That's 550+225+1400+1900+2700+4200 = 10975 gold that's 450~ gpm, if you're half decent at the game you should be able to farm that | ||
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tauon
Australia1278 Posts
On June 16 2014 16:49 Teton wrote: How is getting PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before 24minutes impossible? That's 550+225+1400+1900+2700+4200 = 10975 gold that's 450~ gpm, if you're half decent at the game you should be able to farm that I think it corresponds to a higher effective GPM. This is because your GPM tends to accelerate as the game goes on. | ||
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[APGT]Tex
22 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On June 16 2014 16:49 Teton wrote: How is getting PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before 24 minutes impossible? That's 550+225+1400+1900+2700+4200 = 10975 gold that's 450~ gpm, if you're half decent at the game you should be able to farm that Getting PMS/QB/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before level 11 is impossible. The effectiveness of Aghs is dependent on how often you can use it between level 2 and level 3 Chrono, so that's very important. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On June 16 2014 19:27 tauon wrote: I think it corresponds to a higher effective GPM. This is because your GPM tends to accelerate as the game goes on. Yeah this, sort of. If you have a typically safe lane farm as void and aren't getting hero kills or neutral kills your maximum possible early game GPM is like 450-475. So unless you last hit 100%, in the latter part of that 24 minutes you'd have to make up for missed gold most likely. I don't think it's impossible, but you'd need favorable conditions. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4541 Posts
On June 16 2014 22:55 CosmicSpiral wrote: Getting PMS/QB/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before level 11 is impossible. The effectiveness of Aghs is dependent on how often you can use it between level 2 and level 3 Chrono, so that's very important. I understand what you're trying to say, the Aghs effect is more noticable before level 16, sure. But if you go Midas -> Treads -> Aghs you don't have a single damage item, you're relying pretty heavily on getting those bashes in the chrono to deal some damage. So is it that great that you have chrono more often (and 1 second longer)? You mention somewhere that "late-game damage item -> Aghs is no longer an effective build" and I disagree with this. I would always at least get my maelstrom before considering Aghs. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On June 16 2014 23:35 Laurens wrote: I understand what you're trying to say, the Aghs effect is more noticable before level 16, sure. But if you go Midas -> Treads -> Aghs you don't have a single damage item, you're relying pretty heavily on getting those bashes in the chrono to deal some damage. So is it that great that you have chrono more often (and 1 second longer)? You mention somewhere that "late-game damage item -> Aghs is no longer an effective build" and I disagree with this. I would always at least get my maelstrom before considering Aghs. If you go Agha rush, your primary damage during the early chrono should come from your allies. Else there is little reason for a spammable chrono. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On June 17 2014 00:05 DucK- wrote: If you go Agha rush, your primary damage during the early chrono should come from your allies. Else there is little reason for a spammable chrono. I'd say a fast agh's is something that would be more useful if you played void like universe, either as a sacked lane, or as an offlaner (not mutually exclusive), and then you have something like a gyro or something else that works really well with chrono. Aghs on a 1 or 2 core void seems like a waste of money. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On June 17 2014 00:15 barbsq wrote: I'd say a fast agh's is something that would be more useful if you played void like universe, either as a sacked lane, or as an offlaner (not mutually exclusive), and then you have something like a gyro or something else that works really well with chrono. Aghs on a 1 or 2 core void seems like a waste of money. Not if you get an early Agha to constantly set up kills for you and your supports. You get map control, gold, exp and everything. There's no need to rush your DPS in such lineups. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On June 17 2014 03:35 DucK- wrote: Not if you get an early Agha to constantly set up kills for you and your supports. You get map control, gold, exp and everything. There's no need to rush your DPS in such lineups. i think you two are saying similar things, differently. a spammable chrono definitely allows the other heroes on your team to have an easier time picking off the kills you leave for them inside the chrono. however, if you are going to be a 1 position void, it doesn't give you the dmg you need, especially as the game goes on and/or when chrono is down. | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On June 17 2014 04:32 BluemoonSC wrote: a spammable chrono definitely allows the other heroes on your team to have an easier time picking off the kills you leave for them inside the chrono. however, if you are going to be a 1 position void, it doesn't give you the dmg you need, especially as the game goes on and/or when chrono is down. 1 position Void with Aghs rush has been run successfully; in fact, it is the default build among pros at the moment. But there are only so many drafts that can use Aghs in a way that makes it worthwhile. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On June 17 2014 04:32 BluemoonSC wrote: i think you two are saying similar things, differently. a spammable chrono definitely allows the other heroes on your team to have an easier time picking off the kills you leave for them inside the chrono. however, if you are going to be a 1 position void, it doesn't give you the dmg you need, especially as the game goes on and/or when chrono is down. Must the 1 position void always mean that he has to have DPS all the time? It simply means that he gets most of the farm. In this case, he spends it on at item that allows him to freely use chrono to set up for his allies. The team will then snowball from there, and he proceeds to go DPS. At the start, you wouldn't need to deal the bulk of the damage at all. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
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Trustworthy-Tony
Tanzania187 Posts
On June 17 2014 09:04 Fencar wrote: I don't know if an early aghs is particularly useful if your team doesn't have especially good co-ordination. What's the point of discussing strategy if we're not assuming top tier execution? | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
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Trustworthy-Tony
Tanzania187 Posts
On June 17 2014 09:38 CosmicSpiral wrote: The low damage you get from an Aghs build does not only apply to team fights. It affects every other aspect of his game as well. If you buy midas, mom, qb, battlefury you'll farm really fast if you're left on your own because that's what you usually do when you're playing against Void: just leave him alone :D Agh provides good survivability & utility for a reasonable price and even comes with really good slot-efficiency. | ||
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DrPandaPhD
5188 Posts
On June 17 2014 09:38 CosmicSpiral wrote: The low damage you get from an Aghs build does not only apply to team fights. It affects every other aspect of Void's game as well. Jungling, solo ganking, creep clearing...he can't do any of these effectively with Aghs. That's why you don't get it as a first item but after a mix of Midas/maelstrom/mom | ||
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NeoRussia
Canada381 Posts
On June 17 2014 09:37 Trustworthy-Tony wrote: What's the point of discussing strategy if we're not assuming top tier execution? because even the top 1% of dota 2 players are not smart enough to have good co-ordination. | ||
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Trustworthy-Tony
Tanzania187 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On June 17 2014 09:46 Trustworthy-Tony wrote: If you buy midas, mom, qb, battlefury you'll farm really fast if you're left on your own because that's what you usually do when you're playing against Void: just leave him alone :D Agh provides good survivability & utility for a reasonable price and even comes with really good slot-efficiency. Aghs provides little utility. If you want to go for survivability alone, a Reaver would be more cost-effective. Aghs is a very good snowball item though and it encourages aggression while making it easier to survive a failed initiation. On June 17 2014 09:56 DrPandaPhD wrote: That's why you don't get it as a first item but after a mix of Midas/maelstrom/mom You only get Aghs first if you ran up against an aggro trilane and lost. | ||
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