|
Lalalaland34490 Posts
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/f/fa/Faceless_Void_Large.png) Faceless Void
Darkterror the Faceless Void is a visitor from Claszureme, a realm outside of time. It remains a mystery why this being from another dimension believes the struggle for the Nemesis Stones is worth entering our physical plane, but apparently an upset in the balance of power in this world has repercussions in adjacent dimensions. Time means nothing to Darkterror, except as a way to thwart his foes and aid his allies. His long-view of the cosmos has given him a remote, disconnected quality, although in battle he is quite capable of making it personal.
For abilities, stats, and other information, visit this hero's Liquipedia page here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Faceless_Void
|
Agha rush only if you have allies with spammable spells to combo with. For example, AA + invoker. Basically you play as a setup early on, and rely on your allies to deal date. There's no need to be concerned on getting DPS so early with the build. You transition into it.
If there's no good ally spells, then you should just build him with DPS from the start. I like MoM Mjolnir Bkb. Don't need crit early. Focus on attack speed rather than damage early on.
|
Really wouldn't recommended aghs rush myself to be honest. Ever. I would never consider building aghs before I'm 5-slotted and looking to replace boots with BoT to free up my TP slot for a 6th item. Even with allies to combo with. In theory a 4-man ranged team with a aghs-rushing Void would be amazing. In practice you're never going to get it so perfect. And there are just too many items that are more important to a carry Void.
From my own experience there are basically three ways to open the game Void. I'm just going to copy+paste my post from the In-Game Standard Guide Project thread:
- Supercarry if I can get total freefarm and space. Midas into Battlefury into farming absolutely everything. Classic 6-slot lategame position 1.
- Early fights. Which is MoM if my team is yelling about fighting RIGHT NOW. Its probably the single item that gives you the most killing power the fastest as Void. But leaves you incredibly vulnerable. I'm not a fan but needs must sometimes.
- Somewhere in the middle. If I think its likely to go late-ish and I can get some sort of farm I tend to look for Maelstrom. This provides some early power so you can get involved if needed but also provides a little extra farming ability. And builds into Mjollnir which is a useful lategame item for Void anyway. Probably the safest route.
|
Ixmike playing offlane void was ahead of the curve, with the extra buffs the hero has gotten more pros than just universe will be stealing it soon. The hero just has a ton of survivability in the offlane and only needs level 6 to start team fighting. I honestly think the hero is better as a 3 than as a 1.
|
As someone constantly on the lookout for unconventional offlane heroes, I love the idea of using offlane void. However, doesn't Void have next to nothing to catch up in farm if constantly zoned out by supports? It's not like he has any skill to trade hits with enemy supports. He isn't exactly an efficient jungle farmer without any items, and I can see a decently built enemy team exploiting his lack of farm by turning his chronosphere against him in the lategame.
|
Offlane Void is quite bad actually despite Universe's few games with him. It's more of a pick that punishes the safelane's inability to deal with him. Later on, you need to have successful Chronos, otherwise you are just an oversized creep.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 09 2014 21:42 DucK- wrote:
Agha rush only if you have allies with spammable spells to combo with. For example, AA + invoker. Basically you play as a setup early on, and rely on your allies to deal date. There's no need to be concerned on getting DPS so early with the build. You transition into it.
If there's no good ally spells, then you should just build him with DPS from the start. I like MoM Mjolnir Bkb. Don't need crit early. Focus on attack speed rather than damage early on.
Even if your team has spammable spells, you should always build for DPS with the exception of global spells. Buying Midas -> Aghs with standard wombo-combo partners is largely redundant as the benefit only shines when you are already snowballing from the early game.
On June 09 2014 22:31 Jaaaaasper wrote:
Ixmike playing offlane void was ahead of the curve, with the extra buffs the hero has gotten more pros than just universe will be stealing it soon. The hero just has a ton of survivability in the offlane and only needs level 6 to start team fighting. I honestly think the hero is better as a 3 than as a 1.
He's an extremely underwhelming offlaner if he can't get the space to farm with MoM. You can't rely on him as a Mek/Pipe carrier either as he still adheres to the same philosophy as his safelane position.
On June 09 2014 22:11 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +- Supercarry if I can get total freefarm and space. Midas into Battlefury into farming absolutely everything. Classic 6-slot lategame position 1.
- Early fights. Which is MoM if my team is yelling about fighting RIGHT NOW. Its probably the single item that gives you the most killing power the fastest as Void. But leaves you incredibly vulnerable. I'm not a fan but needs must sometimes.
- Somewhere in the middle. If I think its likely to go late-ish and I can get some sort of farm I tend to look for Maelstrom. This provides some early power so you can get involved if needed but also provides a little extra farming ability. And builds into Mjollnir which is a useful lategame item for Void anyway. Probably the safest route.
Midas -> Battlefury is a pretty outdated build at this point. Battlefury -> MoM is both safer and better at farming.
On June 09 2014 22:55 xAdra wrote:
As someone constantly on the lookout for unconventional offlane heroes, I love the idea of using offlane void. However, doesn't Void have next to nothing to catch up in farm if constantly zoned out by supports? It's not like he has any skill to trade hits with enemy supports. He isn't exactly an efficient jungle farmer without any items, and I can see a decently built enemy team exploiting his lack of farm by turning his chronosphere against him in the lategame.
Offlane Void is a midgame-oriented pick. You get cheap, cost-efficient DPS items and attempt to snowball off kills once the laning stage ends. Since all your regular item timings will either be delayed or nonexistent, you can't attempt to be the lategame carry unless it goes 60+ minutes. As Duck mentioned you pick him to punish a weak trilane that can't chain-stun targets or overwhelm them with Chilling Touch/Howl in the early game.
|
^Battlefury at all is a quite outdated build lol. If anything Midas -> MoM/Maelstrom (or both) into BKB is probably the most modern build.
|
I wonder what would be required to let void jump around on-cd for farming purposes (like AM but void's costs more mana with higher cd).
I'm fairly certain that bfury + treads toggle wouldn't be enough, maybe with vlads or aquila on top of ur bfury?
E: actually I think bfury + treads toggle might be enough but 13s cd blink is much much worse than 5s cd blink.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 10 2014 02:39 Pokebunny wrote:
^Battlefury at all is a quite outdated build lol. If anything Midas -> MoM/Maelstrom (or both) into BKB is probably the most modern build.
I'm starting to think that Midas itself is overrated on the hero, and can be skipped in many situations.
On June 10 2014 02:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
I wonder what would be required to let void jump around on-cd for farming purposes (like AM but void's costs more mana with higher cd).
I'm fairly certain that bfury + treads toggle wouldn't be enough, maybe with vlads or aquila on top of ur bfury?
E: actually I think bfury + treads toggle might be enough but 13s cd blink is much much worse than 5s cd blink.
At level 13 BF + Aquila + INT Treads let you use Walk every 20 seconds without diminishing your pool. That's not AM-like speed but it's quite good.
|
midas is good on all freefarming carries, it is good on void because he actually benefits from levels. people even get midas on weaver and that hero benefits much less from lvls.
|
On June 10 2014 02:54 CosmicSpiral wrote:
At level 11 Battlefury + INT toggle + Aquila should allow you to use Time Walk roughly every 18 seconds.
Erm, what do you mean by "INT toggle"?
Because u get much more regen from ur aquila if you leave boots on agi except when actually casting jump.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 10 2014 03:04 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2014 02:54 CosmicSpiral wrote:
At level 11 Battlefury + INT toggle + Aquila should allow you to use Time Walk roughly every 18 seconds. Erm, what do you mean by "INT toggle"? Because u get much more regen from ur aquila if you leave boots on agi except when actually casting jump.
Sorry, I assumed you would have INT because you wanted the highest possible mana regen (which would be 4.42 compared to 3.63).
|
Int-based regen (which includes all % modifiers) scales evenly with the mana pool from int. As such, there's no value to having int treads on at any point other than when casting spells (unless u get dmg from int).
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 10 2014 03:27 Sn0_Man wrote:
Int-based regen (which includes all % modifiers) scales evenly with the mana pool from int. As such, there's no value to having int treads on at any point other than when casting spells (unless u get dmg from int).
In that case, BF + Aquila is more than enough.
|
I think it's pretty theoretical anyway since that build/playstyle sux for void imo.
|
United States15275 Posts
It's certainly not the dominant option anymore but it will still work against the same stuff it used to work against. Not to mention BF doesn't limit your draft as much as something like Aghs.
|
On June 10 2014 02:39 Pokebunny wrote:
^Battlefury at all is a quite outdated build lol. If anything Midas -> MoM/Maelstrom (or both) into BKB is probably the most modern build.
Its pretty outdated but its wonderfully greedy if you can pull it off.
Only problem is you basically can't do anything until you have at least built something like an MoM extra after getting it.
|
battlefury on melees agis is still the best reliable farm item. no reason not to get it in pubs unless the game is hard.
|
well you can farm Treads -> MoM -> Aghs in about 20 minutes without a bfury, and then start team fighting every 60 seconds, so I think that's a good reason to skip bfury. Hopefully by 20 minutes your teammates are ready for 5 manning as well, and you can snowball your team off of the low CD chronosphere.
|
On June 11 2014 07:40 sabreace wrote:
well you can farm Treads -> MoM -> Aghs in about 20 minutes without a bfury, and then start team fighting every 60 seconds, so I think that's a good reason to skip bfury. Hopefully by 20 minutes your teammates are ready for 5 manning as well, and you can snowball your team off of the low CD chronosphere.
and kill no one in the duration of chronos. i was building aghs on void before it become so popular/less effective, the way you do it is you get a damage and as item then go aghs unless you can rely on your team to kill things during chronosphere.
dont know how many idiot voids who rush aghs lost because they cant even kill a support in the duration.
|
With MoM I had no trouble killing supports the likes of rubick, AA, disruptor. Going Agh's after MoM would be susceptible to failed Chrono's if the enemy team had long range stuns to counter or beefy picks.
|
Aghs is really the only item that solves most of void's issues. I've tried void several times in a row and aghs turned out working great. With the addition of as much mana as you want, easy buildup, and still good damage compared to an actual damage item like daedalus (with MoM and treads you get about 3 hits in with the extra second on chrono) it also allows you to snowball extremely well. The 20 second cooldown difference feels like a lot. It seems like MoM > Aghs is the correct build if you want a good early game and to snowball and win the game that way, but farming-wise I hate battlefury. Just get maelstrom and midas if you want to farm. Either way aghanims is a good 6 slotted item so you probably want this eventually.
|
can someone please confirm that there is no value to keeping treads on int (in order to regen mp faster)? i thought they gives like +0.5 mana regen so shouldn't that work? last time i played mom void i would stay on int the whole time for regen in order to use the mom more.....
|
On June 11 2014 09:50 FFGenerations wrote:
can someone please confirm that there is no value to keeping treads on int (in order to regen mp faster)? i thought they gives like +0.5 mana regen so shouldn't that work? last time i played mom void i would stay on int the whole time for regen in order to use the mom more.....
?
It's called Tread Swapping for a reason. Swapping to int is fine if you want the mana pool or the regen. Keeping it on int is just a waste of Treads.
|
On June 11 2014 09:50 FFGenerations wrote:
can someone please confirm that there is no value to keeping treads on int (in order to regen mp faster)? i thought they gives like +0.5 mana regen so shouldn't that work? last time i played mom void i would stay on int the whole time for regen in order to use the mom more.....
the thing is when you use mana and have treads you switch to int because it basically gives you "free mana" so when you switch back to strength or w/e you will have more mana than you would have if you just used a spell without int threads,because you use less of your original mana pool
|
http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/Hitpoints_and_Manapoints
your base mana regen is ~.308% your mana pool, regardless of total mana pool
int treads do not make you regen mana any faster. they do, however, let you cast more spells because you have a higher base mana pool
example: you have 22 int
int treads: 30 total int; 390 total mp; 1.2 mp regen. 325 seconds to full mana
agi treads: 22 total int; 286 total mp; .88 mp regen. 325 seconds to full mana
if you have no mana and bottle on agi treads and swap to int treads, you go from 70/286 mp -> 95.5/390 mp. so you get a bonus 25.5 mp if you cast on int treads
if you have full mana and cast a 75 mana spell on int treads then swap to agi treads, you go from 315/390 mp -> 231/286 instead of 286/286 -> 211/286 mp. so you effectively spend 20 less mp than if you cast on agi treads
|
United States15275 Posts
Aghs on Void is not for 5 man pushes. It's for executing global ganks (so your team can play extremely greedy) or serving in a 2 position when your mid is the main carry. In the case of constant team fighting, Aghs will mostly reflect the state of your team past the point of purchase. If you're snowballing you will snowball harder; if you're losing, you will continue to lose.
|
Never saw a reason to pretend to be AM with fv. He has good killing potential. All he needs is attack speed which MoM gives.
Also always leave backtrack last. You just need 1 point in it. Time lock should be maxed first, usually after 2-3 points in time walk. You really need time lock as it is your key damage source.
|
am is nothing like faceless besides they can both somewhat blink. faceless can fight just fine early even without teammates where as am just herps around and burns all your mana at best.
as for his solo kill potential with just treads/mom, i guess you guys are just ultra pro at chronosphere and catch everyone and their mothers to get solo kill or your playing against awful kids who has no idea what faceless does.
|
United States15275 Posts
Enemy teams generally don't 5 man before an early Mask. It's also quite handy for jungling to let your supports rotate into the lane.
|
On June 11 2014 12:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Enemy teams generally don't 5 man before an early Mask.
you dont 5 man vs void anyways. all im saying competent players watch hero lvls and when void is 6 they generally play defensive if they see a void thats not going farming build.
i've played all kinds of carries in front page pubs back when i had time. best thing to do is just rice, come online at 25-30mins and win the game. of course you take the occasion free kills/help countergank but you should build as greedily as the game allows. going mom before a damage item is just awful.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 11 2014 12:20 HighTimeDotA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 12:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Enemy teams generally don't 5 man before an early Mask. you dont 5 man vs void anyways. all im saying competent players watch hero lvls and when void is 6 they generally play defensive if they see a void thats not going farming build. i've played all kinds of carries in front page pubs back when i had time. best thing to do is just rice, come online at 25-30mins and win the game. of course you take the occasion free kills/help countergank but you should build as greedily as the game allows. going mom before a damage item is just awful.
You can run a 5 man push lineup easily against him. He's only strong against that style if his supports have great AoE damage (and most of his good supports are level-dependent anyway), so there are powerful timings to hit.
That would be a perfectly acceptable strategy if Void scaled like most carries.
|
void doesnt scale. ok im done posting here. hopeless.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 10 2014 03:00 HighTimeDotA wrote:
midas is good on all freefarming carries, it is good on void because he actually benefits from levels.
On June 11 2014 12:48 HighTimeDotA wrote:
void doesnt scale.
Come on bro. This is lazy trolling even by internet standards.
|
Time lock in chrono is your damage early on. With attack speed from MoM, you should be able to proc it a few times. That's 140 bonus damage for each hit. Its enough to kill most heroes that are alone.
If you don't max time lock asap, then you rely too much on items for damage. Which means you you need to rice till you're fat to kill. Since you guys like to reference pro players, watch burning's fv game vs cis. I recall that he did not max lock first, and that's why he just couldn't till early on. Zero damage.
About scaling. I think he was making a sarcastic reply to your post about void not scaling like most carries. I think he took it literally as void not scaling, as oppose to a relative context.
|
I'm personally a big fan of PMS treads mael MoM. Once you have just the first 3 you can ult and kill most supports and squish carries, and the buildup is quite nice. The mael give you a farm steroid while not being 4300 for a bf, and builds into mjoll which is quite nice. Once you have the MoM you can solo kill anything but a straight tank, which with bf with the same farm you would only have pms/treads/bf and you cant solo kill most heroes.
Void is still super reliant upon getting farm early, and is a little more prone to harass due to no RoH to give regen, but you come online SO much faster as a threat
|
It's quite likely that you should go MoM before maelstrom in that build. The morbid mask allows him to jungle when his lane is pushed out and provides general regen which is helpful, and then the recipe gold is 100 IAS for 1000 gold while farming and/or in chrono which is incredibly good.
Yes maelstrom is by itself a better farming item, but you can't handle harass or really jungle very well with just treads PMS Mael, which is enough gold that you can't get it before you should be doing more than just static farming if possible.
|
Aghs on Void for me is "I can ulti 1 guy for a solo kill without hesitation"
Usually the build for me is 4-0-4 (no backtrack), I prefer it this way.
PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs(or Mjollnir)/Mjollnir(or Aghs)
If enemies have high armour heroes and you need more damage get an MKB, I like having magic dmg from MKB/Bash/Mjollnir
Actually this hero can go a shitload of different item builds. In WC3 I used to go Fury/Butterfly/Heart ?!
Manta builds seem to work too.
|
necrobook is not a bad item on void if you go aghs , since your creeps can move and attack in chronosphere and its a decent team item if youre not the 1 position
|
There's always gonna be a better way to spend 5.2K gold on void.
|
Also Void will never ever get to kills Morphs or Spectres on his own.
Morph is a very strong counter to Void, as he can also Eblade him or his own ally in a chrono.
|
Uh not really so much advice as a FV player, but I've been playing Dark Seer a lot and have a helpful (though pretty obvious) advice. If you go MoM + Mjollnir vs a Dark Seer there's seemingly a high chance you're going to screw your team over with a Chronosphere, at least if my games are any indication. Vac-wall into chronosphere with high attack speed mjollnir means constantly exploding illusions. So uh be really careful when you chrono vs a Dark Seer and make sure to actually hit the Dark Seer with it or don't do it on top of his wall.
Now that FV with mom mjollnir is pretty popular I've seen it multiple times in the past day or so alone. Some fight breaks out, Void Chronos, vac-wall, and the mjollnir procs just ruin FV's day. Well the problem applies in general with MoM + Mjollnir builds vs FV, but chrono makes it extra worse.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 11 2014 13:18 DucK- wrote:
About scaling. I think he was making a sarcastic reply to your post about void not scaling like most carries. I think he took it literally as void not scaling, as oppose to a relative context.
I meant Void's midgame (from level 8 to 13) is incredibly weak and even worse than his early game in relation to other carries.
On June 14 2014 05:18 ChunderBoy wrote:
Aghs on Void for me is "I can ulti 1 guy for a solo kill without hesitation"
Usually the build for me is 4-0-4 (no backtrack), I prefer it this way.
PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs(or Mjollnir)/Mjollnir(or Aghs)
If enemies have high armour heroes and you need more damage get an MKB, I like having magic dmg from MKB/Bash/Mjollnir
Actually this hero can go a shitload of different item builds. In WC3 I used to go Fury/Butterfly/Heart ?!
Manta builds seem to work too.
Max Time Walk is unnecessary in the early part of the game.
That's a very late Aghs. You would be better off upgrading straight to Mjollnir or spending it on BKB.
On June 14 2014 05:35 ChunderBoy wrote:
Also Void will never ever get to kills Morphs or Spectres on his own.
Morph is a very strong counter to Void, as he can also Eblade him or his own ally in a chrono.
Morph is not a true counter, he's just annoying to deal with. Players aren't initially used to STR Morph or immediately Replicating out after a shotgun kill. E-Blade usage is okay if it's a random draft with no significant magic damage. Bane or Silencer are much worse from my experience.
|
On June 11 2014 12:53 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2014 03:00 HighTimeDotA wrote:
midas is good on all freefarming carries, it is good on void because he actually benefits from levels. Come on bro. This is lazy trolling even by internet standards.
this is him misinterpreting "void dosen't scale like most carries" as "void doesnt scale" which makes him think of you as stupid
i think
|
On June 14 2014 12:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2014 13:18 DucK- wrote:
About scaling. I think he was making a sarcastic reply to your post about void not scaling like most carries. I think he took it literally as void not scaling, as oppose to a relative context. I meant Void's midgame (from level 8 to 13) is incredibly weak and even worse than his early game in relation to other carries. Show nested quote +On June 14 2014 05:18 ChunderBoy wrote:
Aghs on Void for me is "I can ulti 1 guy for a solo kill without hesitation"
Usually the build for me is 4-0-4 (no backtrack), I prefer it this way.
PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs(or Mjollnir)/Mjollnir(or Aghs)
If enemies have high armour heroes and you need more damage get an MKB, I like having magic dmg from MKB/Bash/Mjollnir
Actually this hero can go a shitload of different item builds. In WC3 I used to go Fury/Butterfly/Heart ?!
Manta builds seem to work too. Max Time Walk is unnecessary in the early part of the game. That's a very late Aghs. You would be better off upgrading straight to Mjollnir or spending it on BKB. Show nested quote +On June 14 2014 05:35 ChunderBoy wrote:
Also Void will never ever get to kills Morphs or Spectres on his own.
Morph is a very strong counter to Void, as he can also Eblade him or his own ally in a chrono. Morph is not a true counter, he's just annoying to deal with. Players aren't initially used to STR Morph or immediately Replicating out after a shotgun kill. E-Blade usage is okay if it's a random draft with no significant magic damage. Bane or Silencer are much worse from my experience.
with this single post you just tried to counter argue the two most experienced players who actually posts on this forum to try to help new kids get better.
a. void is not a weak hero especially in the mid game, he has great initation and burst with minimal items
b. read the time walk tool tip before you decide it is unnecessary to max. more range more slow = more surprise into chrono into rofl you are dead.
c. there is no point to rush an early aghs in most games unless you like poping it whenever you want to kill supports. or have teammates that syngerizes well with chronosphere like a witch doctor.
d. eblade disables void from doing any damage for the duration unless he has a bkb and can be used to save teammates who are being focused by void.
in conclusion, you dont complete understand the hero and what he is capable of which is weird because hes your portrait.
|
On June 14 2014 12:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Max Time Walk is unnecessary in the early part of the game.
That's a very late Aghs. You would be better off upgrading straight to Mjollnir or spending it on BKB.
That's like a 24min Aghs?! Even then how is a late Aghs ever a bad thing?
Morph is not a true counter, he's just annoying to deal with. Players aren't initially used to STR Morph or immediately Replicating out after a shotgun kill. E-Blade usage is okay if it's a random draft with no significant magic damage. Bane or Silencer are much worse from my experience.
Wtf I didn't understand anything you said.
|
On June 14 2014 12:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Morph is not a true counter, he's just annoying to deal with. Players aren't initially used to STR Morph or immediately Replicating out after a shotgun kill. E-Blade usage is okay if it's a random draft with no significant magic damage. Bane or Silencer are much worse from my experience.
so you're counting on the other team to be bad...?
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 14 2014 13:31 HighTimeDotA wrote:
with this single post you just tried to counter argue the two most experienced players who actually posts on this forum to try to help new kids get better.
Yeah, Duck repeatedly proclaiming the sheer crappiness of Medusa is really educational. He's one of the most articulate and intelligent posters here but he's not in schoolteacher mode 24/7.
On June 14 2014 13:31 HighTimeDotA wrote:a. void is not a weak hero especially in the mid game, he has great initation and burst with minimal items
His initiation is fine but leads to no immediate damage afterwards.
His "burst damage" is laughable if we make a serious comparison to other heroes with true nukes. Level 4 Time Lock adds an average of 35 damage per hit in Chronosphere, 17.5 outside of it (all before factoring in magic resistance). Almost every other right-click steroid does more damage in more situations with less investment; no other hero has to spend 40-50% of his mana pool just to set up the possibility of getting extra damage from a pseudo-RNG spell. And that before we start talking about real burst damage combinations like Arrow -> Starfall.
Now if you want to argue that Void gets that burst damage from MoM, I'm sorry to say that's not true. He'll get more procs just by virtue of getting more hits but the DPS increase is quite weak unless we compare it to non-damage item combos like Midas/Treads. Getting kills with MoM alone in the midgame involves a fair bit of luck in getting more Time Lock procs than average. For that reason it's usually better to get a damage item -> MoM except when there's a reason to start jungling early.
On June 14 2014 13:31 HighTimeDotA wrote:b. read the time walk tool tip before you decide it is unnecessary to max. more range more slow = more surprise into chrono into rofl you are dead.
There's no reason to max TIme Walk and ignore Backtrack if you're the primary carry. If you're doing standard Walk -> Chrono all you need is the range, the slow is irrelevant and the CD is too long to reuse before the fight is decided. 1 point in Backtrack gives you more value than Level 3 -> Level 4 Time Walk ever will.
On June 14 2014 13:31 HighTimeDotA wrote:c. there is no point to rush an early aghs in most games unless you like poping it whenever you want to kill supports. or have teammates that syngerizes well with chronosphere like a witch doctor.
The only reason you get Aghs in 6.81 is to create a timing window between level 2 and level 3 Chronosphere. Since the 6.80 CD reduction, late-game damage item -> Aghs is no longer an effective build.
On June 14 2014 13:31 HighTimeDotA wrote:d. eblade disables void from doing any damage for the duration unless he has a bkb and can be used to save teammates who are being focused by void.
Even if Morph never went E-Blade you would still get BKB after your first major damage item. That's part of the matchup. Unless you buy bulk like Aghs, Morph can still burst you down when Backtrack isn't going your way.
The real reason Morph gives Void trouble is because STR Morph works through Chronosphere. You have no reliable method of killing him before escape Wave Form/Replicate unless you have help.
Using Ethereal Blade against a proper Void team is suicide. The target will get blown up by all the magic damage.
On June 15 2014 02:16 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2014 12:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Max Time Walk is unnecessary in the early part of the game.
That's a very late Aghs. You would be better off upgrading straight to Mjollnir or spending it on BKB. That's like a 24min Aghs?! Even then how is a late Aghs ever a bad thing? Show nested quote +Morph is not a true counter, he's just annoying to deal with. Players aren't initially used to STR Morph or immediately Replicating out after a shotgun kill. E-Blade usage is okay if it's a random draft with no significant magic damage. Bane or Silencer are much worse from my experience. Wtf I didn't understand anything you said.
The standard timing for Aghs now is 16-20 minutes. You either get MoM or Midas beforehand, the former for damage and the latter to hit level 11 as soon as possible. Aghs now is level-dependent and you don't want to get it if you know it's arriving after level 2 Chrono. I don't see how you can afford PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before that point.
Morph doesn't counter Void i.e. he doesn't change the way you play against him in an actual match. The big difference compared to other heroes is that Void cannot reliably kill Morph in a 1v1 scenario inside of Chronosphere. But if you relied Void to do that in the first place, it would be a major concern.
Bane and Silencer can be considered counters because they either remove options or ignore standard item pickups. Silencer is especially bad in my opinion since he can ruin initiation, wombo combos, and retreats without actually man-fighting Void or channeling my spells. Also he's one of the few supports that forces Void to prioritize him over carries as a Chrono target.
On June 15 2014 03:53 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2014 12:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Morph is not a true counter, he's just annoying to deal with. Players aren't initially used to STR Morph or immediately Replicating out after a shotgun kill. E-Blade usage is okay if it's a random draft with no significant magic damage. Bane or Silencer are much worse from my experience. so you're counting on the other team to be bad...?
I'm relying on there being actual teams instead of some bizarre hypothetical 1v1 manfight.
|
im not gonna quote here cuz it would make the post way to big
a. nobody walk talking about duck- everyone knows he advocates some weird builds here in strats on a lot of heroes.
b. void has very high basedamage and with pms treads at lvl 6 a chronosphere target is almost guaranteed to die (unless you are bad an you go for heroes you cant kill) and apparently mom active which gives 100% more as gives no burst, i dont know what to say to that
c. if you are a very confident player and the game situation allows it always go the most greedy build which is 4/0/4 which allows better solo killing.
d. you go bkb after a big item in your case it would be aghs and you will have 0 solo killing potential vs all enemy cores due to the sever lack of damage (you yourself repeated say how awful void dps is yet you want to rosh aghs into bkb cool) and you do realize you can eblade important supports like lion and save him during chronosphere duration if they get caught. and by your logic nobody should ever eblade their teammates because apparently magic damage just happens.
e. im gonna go drink a cup of tea and let beesa finish the rest.
edit: beesa gave up, you win, his build sucks such slow awful zero impact afk farmer.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 15 2014 02:16 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2014 12:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Max Time Walk is unnecessary in the early part of the game.
That's a very late Aghs. You would be better off upgrading straight to Mjollnir or spending it on BKB. That's like a 24min Aghs?! Even then how is a late Aghs ever a bad thing? Show nested quote +Morph is not a true counter, he's just annoying to deal with. Players aren't initially used to STR Morph or immediately Replicating out after a shotgun kill. E-Blade usage is okay if it's a random draft with no significant magic damage. Bane or Silencer are much worse from my experience. Wtf I didn't understand anything you said.
Just 1 plain question: is there really much profit in aghs when you hit lvl16? I see why it's decent/good before that but after?
|
On June 15 2014 05:23 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2014 02:16 ChunderBoy wrote:On June 14 2014 12:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Max Time Walk is unnecessary in the early part of the game.
That's a very late Aghs. You would be better off upgrading straight to Mjollnir or spending it on BKB. That's like a 24min Aghs?! Even then how is a late Aghs ever a bad thing? Morph is not a true counter, he's just annoying to deal with. Players aren't initially used to STR Morph or immediately Replicating out after a shotgun kill. E-Blade usage is okay if it's a random draft with no significant magic damage. Bane or Silencer are much worse from my experience. Wtf I didn't understand anything you said. Just 1 plain question: is there really much profit in aghs when you hit lvl16? I see why it's decent/good before that but after?
20s is still a decent amount of time and it does increase the duration by 1s. allows the ult to be more freely use for pickoffs and the extra 1s helps in big fights.
|
Is it ever worth putting extra points in backtrack early?
I've had situations where a few points let me 1v1 a windrunner or whatever so the supports could go do something else. Should I be able to freefarm those lanes without backtrack anyway?
|
On June 15 2014 04:37 CosmicSpiral wrote:
The standard timing for Aghs now is 16-20 minutes. You either get MoM or Midas beforehand, the former for damage and the latter to hit level 11 as soon as possible. Aghs now is level-dependent and you don't want to get it if you know it's arriving after level 2 Chrono. I don't see how you can afford PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before that point.
He's good, that's how he does it
|
I don't see cosmic arguing against me anywhere O.O
And you don't need to max time walk asap. You can leave it at 2-3 if you want. The only rule is to max time lock asap.
And I also don't see a good reason for a late agha post level 16.
|
On June 15 2014 16:09 Teton wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2014 04:37 CosmicSpiral wrote:
The standard timing for Aghs now is 16-20 minutes. You either get MoM or Midas beforehand, the former for damage and the latter to hit level 11 as soon as possible. Aghs now is level-dependent and you don't want to get it if you know it's arriving after level 2 Chrono. I don't see how you can afford PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before that point.
He's good, that's how he does it
|
Lost so many mmr against this lad, makes me sick.
|
On June 15 2014 10:18 Belisarius wrote:
Is it ever worth putting extra points in backtrack early?
I've had situations where a few points let me 1v1 a windrunner or whatever so the supports could go do something else. Should I be able to freefarm those lanes without backtrack anyway?
If the lane is hard(pubs please) or got harrassed like mad, I put early points into Backtrack. In easy lane 1 point walk is enough in most cases.
|
Lalalaland34490 Posts
I would never ever ever leave Time Walk at level 1, even if you're in an easy lane. Having at least level 2 (I prefer 3 minimum) Time Walk is so much more important than one or two earlier points in Backtrack in every way.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 15 2014 10:18 Belisarius wrote:
Is it ever worth putting extra points in backtrack early?
I've had situations where a few points let me 1v1 a windrunner or whatever so the supports could go do something else. Should I be able to freefarm those lanes without backtrack anyway?
I think unless you have complete free farm, it's always worthwhile to put 1 point in Backtrack in the early game. But you shouldn't have more than 1 unless you are facing an aggressive trilane. It's better to max out Time Lock by level 7.
On June 15 2014 05:23 lolfail9001 wrote:
Just 1 plain question: is there really much profit in aghs when you hit lvl16? I see why it's decent/good before that but after?
Before 6.79 it was underrated. You could do builds like Mjollnir -> Aghs and argue the 40 second CD reduction was enough to justify the pickup. You still had all the usual problems (late BKB, so-so damage compared to other builds) but it scaled relatively well and buybacks were as ubiquitous as grass.
Now it's sub-optimal past level 16. You'd get more value if you used the Point Booster for a Skadi.
On June 15 2014 16:09 Teton wrote:
He's good, that's how he does it
Rhetorical question. It's impossible to do. Fast Midas -> Treads -> Aghs with near-optimal farm completes at level 10.
|
On June 16 2014 08:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:Rhetorical question. It's impossible to do. Fast Midas -> Treads -> Aghs with near-optimal farm completes at level 10.
How is getting PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before 24minutes impossible?
That's 550+225+1400+1900+2700+4200 = 10975 gold
that's 450~ gpm, if you're half decent at the game you should be able to farm that
|
On June 16 2014 16:49 Teton wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 08:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 15 2014 16:09 Teton wrote:
He's good, that's how he does it Rhetorical question. It's impossible to do. Fast Midas -> Treads -> Aghs with near-optimal farm completes at level 10. How is getting PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before 24minutes impossible? That's 550+225+1400+1900+2700+4200 = 10975 gold that's 450~ gpm, if you're half decent at the game you should be able to farm that
I think it corresponds to a higher effective GPM. This is because your GPM tends to accelerate as the game goes on.
|
I think void is a hero thar benefits alot from AS because of his bash end because due his power is when chrono is online the bash deal double damage, so i play him like full AS build: midas+pt+mom+mjolnir then go crit+cleave+devine^^, no i'm joking..
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 16 2014 16:49 Teton wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 08:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 15 2014 16:09 Teton wrote:
He's good, that's how he does it Rhetorical question. It's impossible to do. Fast Midas -> Treads -> Aghs with near-optimal farm completes at level 10. How is getting PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before 24 minutes impossible? That's 550+225+1400+1900+2700+4200 = 10975 gold that's 450~ gpm, if you're half decent at the game you should be able to farm that
Getting PMS/QB/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before level 11 is impossible. The effectiveness of Aghs is dependent on how often you can use it between level 2 and level 3 Chrono, so that's very important.
|
On June 16 2014 19:27 tauon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 16:49 Teton wrote:On June 16 2014 08:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 15 2014 16:09 Teton wrote:
He's good, that's how he does it Rhetorical question. It's impossible to do. Fast Midas -> Treads -> Aghs with near-optimal farm completes at level 10. How is getting PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before 24minutes impossible? That's 550+225+1400+1900+2700+4200 = 10975 gold that's 450~ gpm, if you're half decent at the game you should be able to farm that I think it corresponds to a higher effective GPM. This is because your GPM tends to accelerate as the game goes on.
Yeah this, sort of. If you have a typically safe lane farm as void and aren't getting hero kills or neutral kills your maximum possible early game GPM is like 450-475. So unless you last hit 100%, in the latter part of that 24 minutes you'd have to make up for missed gold most likely. I don't think it's impossible, but you'd need favorable conditions.
|
On June 16 2014 22:55 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 16:49 Teton wrote:On June 16 2014 08:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 15 2014 16:09 Teton wrote:
He's good, that's how he does it Rhetorical question. It's impossible to do. Fast Midas -> Treads -> Aghs with near-optimal farm completes at level 10. How is getting PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before 24 minutes impossible? That's 550+225+1400+1900+2700+4200 = 10975 gold that's 450~ gpm, if you're half decent at the game you should be able to farm that Getting PMS/QB/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before level 11 is impossible. The effectiveness of Aghs is dependent on how often you can use it between level 2 and level 3 Chrono, so that's very important.
I understand what you're trying to say, the Aghs effect is more noticable before level 16, sure.
But if you go Midas -> Treads -> Aghs you don't have a single damage item, you're relying pretty heavily on getting those bashes in the chrono to deal some damage. So is it that great that you have chrono more often (and 1 second longer)?
You mention somewhere that "late-game damage item -> Aghs is no longer an effective build" and I disagree with this. I would always at least get my maelstrom before considering Aghs.
|
On June 16 2014 23:35 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 22:55 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 16 2014 16:49 Teton wrote:On June 16 2014 08:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 15 2014 16:09 Teton wrote:
He's good, that's how he does it Rhetorical question. It's impossible to do. Fast Midas -> Treads -> Aghs with near-optimal farm completes at level 10. How is getting PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before 24 minutes impossible? That's 550+225+1400+1900+2700+4200 = 10975 gold that's 450~ gpm, if you're half decent at the game you should be able to farm that Getting PMS/QB/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before level 11 is impossible. The effectiveness of Aghs is dependent on how often you can use it between level 2 and level 3 Chrono, so that's very important. I understand what you're trying to say, the Aghs effect is more noticable before level 16, sure. But if you go Midas -> Treads -> Aghs you don't have a single damage item, you're relying pretty heavily on getting those bashes in the chrono to deal some damage. So is it that great that you have chrono more often (and 1 second longer)? You mention somewhere that "late-game damage item -> Aghs is no longer an effective build" and I disagree with this. I would always at least get my maelstrom before considering Aghs.
If you go Agha rush, your primary damage during the early chrono should come from your allies. Else there is little reason for a spammable chrono.
|
On June 17 2014 00:05 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 23:35 Laurens wrote:On June 16 2014 22:55 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 16 2014 16:49 Teton wrote:On June 16 2014 08:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 15 2014 16:09 Teton wrote:
He's good, that's how he does it Rhetorical question. It's impossible to do. Fast Midas -> Treads -> Aghs with near-optimal farm completes at level 10. How is getting PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before 24 minutes impossible? That's 550+225+1400+1900+2700+4200 = 10975 gold that's 450~ gpm, if you're half decent at the game you should be able to farm that Getting PMS/QB/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before level 11 is impossible. The effectiveness of Aghs is dependent on how often you can use it between level 2 and level 3 Chrono, so that's very important. I understand what you're trying to say, the Aghs effect is more noticable before level 16, sure. But if you go Midas -> Treads -> Aghs you don't have a single damage item, you're relying pretty heavily on getting those bashes in the chrono to deal some damage. So is it that great that you have chrono more often (and 1 second longer)? You mention somewhere that "late-game damage item -> Aghs is no longer an effective build" and I disagree with this. I would always at least get my maelstrom before considering Aghs. If you go Agha rush, your primary damage during the early chrono should come from your allies. Else there is little reason for a spammable chrono.
I'd say a fast agh's is something that would be more useful if you played void like universe, either as a sacked lane, or as an offlaner (not mutually exclusive), and then you have something like a gyro or something else that works really well with chrono. Aghs on a 1 or 2 core void seems like a waste of money.
|
On June 17 2014 00:15 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 00:05 DucK- wrote:On June 16 2014 23:35 Laurens wrote:On June 16 2014 22:55 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 16 2014 16:49 Teton wrote:On June 16 2014 08:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 15 2014 16:09 Teton wrote:
He's good, that's how he does it Rhetorical question. It's impossible to do. Fast Midas -> Treads -> Aghs with near-optimal farm completes at level 10. How is getting PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before 24 minutes impossible? That's 550+225+1400+1900+2700+4200 = 10975 gold that's 450~ gpm, if you're half decent at the game you should be able to farm that Getting PMS/QB/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before level 11 is impossible. The effectiveness of Aghs is dependent on how often you can use it between level 2 and level 3 Chrono, so that's very important. I understand what you're trying to say, the Aghs effect is more noticable before level 16, sure. But if you go Midas -> Treads -> Aghs you don't have a single damage item, you're relying pretty heavily on getting those bashes in the chrono to deal some damage. So is it that great that you have chrono more often (and 1 second longer)? You mention somewhere that "late-game damage item -> Aghs is no longer an effective build" and I disagree with this. I would always at least get my maelstrom before considering Aghs. If you go Agha rush, your primary damage during the early chrono should come from your allies. Else there is little reason for a spammable chrono. I'd say a fast agh's is something that would be more useful if you played void like universe, either as a sacked lane, or as an offlaner (not mutually exclusive), and then you have something like a gyro or something else that works really well with chrono. Aghs on a 1 or 2 core void seems like a waste of money.
Not if you get an early Agha to constantly set up kills for you and your supports. You get map control, gold, exp and everything. There's no need to rush your DPS in such lineups.
|
SoCal8910 Posts
On June 17 2014 03:35 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 00:15 barbsq wrote:On June 17 2014 00:05 DucK- wrote:On June 16 2014 23:35 Laurens wrote:On June 16 2014 22:55 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 16 2014 16:49 Teton wrote:On June 16 2014 08:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 15 2014 16:09 Teton wrote:
He's good, that's how he does it Rhetorical question. It's impossible to do. Fast Midas -> Treads -> Aghs with near-optimal farm completes at level 10. How is getting PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before 24 minutes impossible? That's 550+225+1400+1900+2700+4200 = 10975 gold that's 450~ gpm, if you're half decent at the game you should be able to farm that Getting PMS/QB/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before level 11 is impossible. The effectiveness of Aghs is dependent on how often you can use it between level 2 and level 3 Chrono, so that's very important. I understand what you're trying to say, the Aghs effect is more noticable before level 16, sure. But if you go Midas -> Treads -> Aghs you don't have a single damage item, you're relying pretty heavily on getting those bashes in the chrono to deal some damage. So is it that great that you have chrono more often (and 1 second longer)? You mention somewhere that "late-game damage item -> Aghs is no longer an effective build" and I disagree with this. I would always at least get my maelstrom before considering Aghs. If you go Agha rush, your primary damage during the early chrono should come from your allies. Else there is little reason for a spammable chrono. I'd say a fast agh's is something that would be more useful if you played void like universe, either as a sacked lane, or as an offlaner (not mutually exclusive), and then you have something like a gyro or something else that works really well with chrono. Aghs on a 1 or 2 core void seems like a waste of money. Not if you get an early Agha to constantly set up kills for you and your supports. You get map control, gold, exp and everything. There's no need to rush your DPS in such lineups.
i think you two are saying similar things, differently.
a spammable chrono definitely allows the other heroes on your team to have an easier time picking off the kills you leave for them inside the chrono. however, if you are going to be a 1 position void, it doesn't give you the dmg you need, especially as the game goes on and/or when chrono is down.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 17 2014 04:32 BluemoonSC wrote:
a spammable chrono definitely allows the other heroes on your team to have an easier time picking off the kills you leave for them inside the chrono. however, if you are going to be a 1 position void, it doesn't give you the dmg you need, especially as the game goes on and/or when chrono is down.
1 position Void with Aghs rush has been run successfully; in fact, it is the default build among pros at the moment. But there are only so many drafts that can use Aghs in a way that makes it worthwhile.
|
On June 17 2014 04:32 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 03:35 DucK- wrote:On June 17 2014 00:15 barbsq wrote:On June 17 2014 00:05 DucK- wrote:On June 16 2014 23:35 Laurens wrote:On June 16 2014 22:55 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 16 2014 16:49 Teton wrote:On June 16 2014 08:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 15 2014 16:09 Teton wrote:
He's good, that's how he does it Rhetorical question. It's impossible to do. Fast Midas -> Treads -> Aghs with near-optimal farm completes at level 10. How is getting PMS/Quelling/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before 24 minutes impossible? That's 550+225+1400+1900+2700+4200 = 10975 gold that's 450~ gpm, if you're half decent at the game you should be able to farm that Getting PMS/QB/Treads/MoM/Maelstrom/Aghs before level 11 is impossible. The effectiveness of Aghs is dependent on how often you can use it between level 2 and level 3 Chrono, so that's very important. I understand what you're trying to say, the Aghs effect is more noticable before level 16, sure. But if you go Midas -> Treads -> Aghs you don't have a single damage item, you're relying pretty heavily on getting those bashes in the chrono to deal some damage. So is it that great that you have chrono more often (and 1 second longer)? You mention somewhere that "late-game damage item -> Aghs is no longer an effective build" and I disagree with this. I would always at least get my maelstrom before considering Aghs. If you go Agha rush, your primary damage during the early chrono should come from your allies. Else there is little reason for a spammable chrono. I'd say a fast agh's is something that would be more useful if you played void like universe, either as a sacked lane, or as an offlaner (not mutually exclusive), and then you have something like a gyro or something else that works really well with chrono. Aghs on a 1 or 2 core void seems like a waste of money. Not if you get an early Agha to constantly set up kills for you and your supports. You get map control, gold, exp and everything. There's no need to rush your DPS in such lineups. i think you two are saying similar things, differently. a spammable chrono definitely allows the other heroes on your team to have an easier time picking off the kills you leave for them inside the chrono. however, if you are going to be a 1 position void, it doesn't give you the dmg you need, especially as the game goes on and/or when chrono is down.
Must the 1 position void always mean that he has to have DPS all the time? It simply means that he gets most of the farm. In this case, he spends it on at item that allows him to freely use chrono to set up for his allies. The team will then snowball from there, and he proceeds to go DPS. At the start, you wouldn't need to deal the bulk of the damage at all.
|
I don't know if an early aghs is particularly useful if your team doesn't have especially good co-ordination.
|
On June 17 2014 09:04 Fencar wrote:
I don't know if an early aghs is particularly useful if your team doesn't have especially good co-ordination.
What's the point of discussing strategy if we're not assuming top tier execution?
|
United States15275 Posts
The low damage you get from an Aghs build does not only apply to team fights. It affects every other aspect of Void's game as well. Jungling, solo ganking, creep clearing...he can't do any of these effectively with Aghs.
|
On June 17 2014 09:38 CosmicSpiral wrote:
The low damage you get from an Aghs build does not only apply to team fights. It affects every other aspect of his game as well.
If you buy midas, mom, qb, battlefury you'll farm really fast if you're left on your own because that's what you usually do when you're playing against Void: just leave him alone :D
Agh provides good survivability & utility for a reasonable price and even comes with really good slot-efficiency.
|
On June 17 2014 09:38 CosmicSpiral wrote:
The low damage you get from an Aghs build does not only apply to team fights. It affects every other aspect of Void's game as well. Jungling, solo ganking, creep clearing...he can't do any of these effectively with Aghs.
That's why you don't get it as a first item but after a mix of Midas/maelstrom/mom
|
On June 17 2014 09:37 Trustworthy-Tony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 09:04 Fencar wrote:
I don't know if an early aghs is particularly useful if your team doesn't have especially good co-ordination. What's the point of discussing strategy if we're not assuming top tier execution?
because even the top 1% of dota 2 players are not smart enough to have good co-ordination.
|
there's also always the good old treads mjollnir butterfly BKB yolo-rapier which makes for a scary timing
|
United States15275 Posts
This mid Void trend in China is amusing. Has the "mid as core" phenomenon reached its inevitably ugly apotheosis?
On June 17 2014 09:46 Trustworthy-Tony wrote:
If you buy midas, mom, qb, battlefury you'll farm really fast if you're left on your own because that's what you usually do when you're playing against Void: just leave him alone :D
Agh provides good survivability & utility for a reasonable price and even comes with really good slot-efficiency.
Aghs provides little utility. If you want to go for survivability alone, a Reaver would be more cost-effective. Aghs is a very good snowball item though and it encourages aggression while making it easier to survive a failed initiation.
On June 17 2014 09:56 DrPandaPhD wrote:
That's why you don't get it as a first item but after a mix of Midas/maelstrom/mom
You only get Aghs first if you ran up against an aggro trilane and lost.
|
Well if you think about it, void has mobility to rune control, his abilities really need levels, is strong with only levels, and makes good use of runes and bottle. So it makes sense to play him as a mid, if only he wasn't so weak 1v1.
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On June 17 2014 09:37 Trustworthy-Tony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 09:04 Fencar wrote:
I don't know if an early aghs is particularly useful if your team doesn't have especially good co-ordination. What's the point of discussing strategy if we're not assuming top tier execution?
Because we're being realistic here? It doesn't hurt to present options that are viable for the less skilled. We're not talking about balance here.
|
On June 17 2014 17:20 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 09:37 Trustworthy-Tony wrote:On June 17 2014 09:04 Fencar wrote:
I don't know if an early aghs is particularly useful if your team doesn't have especially good co-ordination. What's the point of discussing strategy if we're not assuming top tier execution? Because we're being realistic here? It doesn't hurt to present options that are viable for the less skilled. We're not talking about balance here.
I believe lesser skilled should just skip the midas and the battlefury (although i see them alot), it takes descent lasthitting and positional experience to go for a midas or battlefury on time. For voidscrubs best feels PT+mom+crystalis, because its cheap and online early. Crystalis grants +50 damage on average and scales well into the late game by granting more and more damageoutput. Choosing crystalis after mom grants void pickoff potential in the earlygame.
Maelstrom is nice but more team/farmoriented, which i need less in my scrubpubs.
|
On June 17 2014 13:33 NeoRussia wrote:
Well if you think about it, void has mobility to rune control, his abilities really need levels, is strong with only levels, and makes good use of runes and bottle. So it makes sense to play him as a mid, if only he wasn't so weak 1v1.
Can't control runes if you don't have abilites to clear creeps fast
|
On June 17 2014 19:06 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 17:20 ahswtini wrote:On June 17 2014 09:37 Trustworthy-Tony wrote:On June 17 2014 09:04 Fencar wrote:
I don't know if an early aghs is particularly useful if your team doesn't have especially good co-ordination. What's the point of discussing strategy if we're not assuming top tier execution? Because we're being realistic here? It doesn't hurt to present options that are viable for the less skilled. We're not talking about balance here. I believe lesser skilled should just skip the midas and the battlefury (although i see them alot), it takes descent lasthitting and positional experience to go for a midas or battlefury on time. For voidscrubs best feels PT+mom+crystalis, because its cheap and online early. Crystalis grants +50 damage on average and scales well into the late game by granting more and more damageoutput. Choosing crystalis after mom grants void pickoff potential in the earlygame. Maelstrom is nice but more team/farmoriented, which i need less in my scrubpubs.
I would go mael because attack speed is more important than damage on void. Helps in farming too
|
treads>MoM>mael seems like a reasonable cover-all build. The DPS is pretty similar to crystalis when you factor in the aspd with his bash+lightning.
Also, midas>treads>MoM>mael seems kind of overkill. I feel like the mael is the more obvious one to drop if I get midas, but I'm not certain.
|
midas>treads>mom>mjolnir>butterfly with a bkb when I feel I need it is my standard void build, no such thing as overkill for attack speed
|
why would u ever build battelfury on him. its just so terrible unless you are against shit tier players that goes out of position, the manacost,cooldown of his timewalk is terrible compared to antimage, he cant flashfarm woods like an am, and later on when he has damage he will clear the wood first camp before the leap is off cooldown even 50%.
maelstrom however is great becuse first it can bounce outside of ulti, second it can bounce and hit players inside that are worst and spread out in the fv ultimate wich should be the best case of scenario against good players unless you have a vaccume or somthing.
and maelstrom provides attackspeed wich increases his damage substantially.
PT>Maelstrom is like the get go to go on void, after that it all depends what they have, if he needs a bkb or if he needs aghanim to play a more setup kinda of guy for the team with nukes.
one of fv best luxury items are butterfly and mkb. and ofcourse deadalus Becuse he wants and needs procc on hit items alongside with high attackspeed. and evasion from butterfly stacks with backtrack
However when and how and if is the bigger question here it all depends on what you have on your team and what you are up against.
So saying anything else than PT and treads are just bad imo, you might aswell trick the poor player into buy a rod of atos :D
Reason why often mjollnir is not worth upgrading until later is becuse of the lack of as it provides for you, however the static charge you can apply to a tank could be worth it depends as said on what team8s and opponents you have!
FV worst enemy is when other team got alot of stuns and burst spells, Sandking,earthshaker and lich,exort invoker, they are also his best team8s 
|
Don't think battlefury is 'awful' on Void. More situational, a bit similar to PA. Definitely not core, but can be good in some games.
Aghs is not so much to set up kills for your teammates. But rather than you can solochrono and solokill people a lot more without risking the enemy team going down a lane and push towers. The CD reduction on aghs is really what's nice about it.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 17 2014 21:01 Belisarius wrote:
Also, midas>treads>MoM>mael seems kind of overkill. I feel like the mael is the more obvious one to drop if I get midas, but I'm not certain.
Maelstrom provides slightly more DPS than MoM. MoM is better for chasing single targets once the fight scatters. You can switch out one for the other depending on the game.
On June 17 2014 22:13 KOFgokuon wrote:
midas>treads>mom>mjolnir>butterfly with a bkb when I feel I need it is my standard void build, no such thing as overkill for attack speed
200-250 IAS is the sweet spot when it comes to item builds. Anything past 300 (you'll naturally get +86.60 by level 25) is a waste compared to the benefits of Heart/Satanic/Skadi.
|
There is no such thing as diminishing returns in Dota
|
On June 18 2014 03:23 Noya wrote:
There is no such thing as diminishing returns in Dota
Cough armor Cough
|
On June 18 2014 03:26 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 03:23 Noya wrote:
There is no such thing as diminishing returns in Dota Cough armor Cough
Armor doesn't really feature diminishing returns. Like DMG/Attackspeed, Armor/Raw HP are most effective when complemented by the other, not on their own.
Attackspeed has a hard cap at 400% IAS though which includes your agi etc.
|
Common misconception, Armor doesn't suffer diminishing returns, it's just that at some point it's more efficient to buy HP instead of Armor to increase your survivability.
|
I might be wrong in my understanding of diminishing returns but each point of extra armor gives you less damage reduction per point, which is what diminishing returns is right?
|
On June 18 2014 03:33 solidbebe wrote:
I might be wrong in my understanding of diminishing returns but each point of extra armor gives you less damage reduction per point, which is what diminishing returns is right?
If you increase your damage reduction from 98 to 99% you are taking half the damage (if something hits you for 200 with 98% it woulda hit you for 100 with 99% reduction, doubling your EHP)
|
On June 18 2014 03:35 Noya wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 03:33 solidbebe wrote:
I might be wrong in my understanding of diminishing returns but each point of extra armor gives you less damage reduction per point, which is what diminishing returns is right? If you increase your damage reduction from 98 to 99% you are taking half the damage (if something hits you for 200 with 98% it woulda hit you for 100 with 99% reduction, doubling your EHP)
Ahh I hadn't thought of it that way, fair enough.
|
Each point of armor adds a flat value (.06*HP) to the amount of physical damage required to kill you. No diminishing returns.
Your % reduction doesn't go up by a flat amount but your actual Expected HP does.
|
I like going midas, treads, maelstrom, agha into whatever. Agha components (point booster + ogre club) provide a nice HP boost midgame. It feels very forgiving to play and provide a good midgame presence, it delays damage items a lot but if it goes late you're usually in a good spot with void.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 18 2014 03:23 Noya wrote:
There is no such thing as diminishing returns in Dota
You're right. Every +100 IAS adds + 0.59 attack per second no matter when you get it.
|
On June 18 2014 03:42 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 03:23 Noya wrote:
There is no such thing as diminishing returns in Dota You're right. Every +100 IAS adds + 0.59 attack per second no matter when you get it.
1/BAT
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 18 2014 05:07 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 03:42 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 18 2014 03:23 Noya wrote:
There is no such thing as diminishing returns in Dota You're right. Every +100 IAS adds + 0.59 attack per second no matter when you get it. 1/BAT
Same thing.
|
On June 18 2014 03:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
Each point of armor adds a flat value (.06*HP) to the amount of physical damage required to kill you. No diminishing returns.
Your % reduction doesn't go up by a flat amount but your actual Expected HP does.
There's sort of a fake "diminishing return" in armor is that the more armor you have the more efficient it is to get HP instead of additional armor. Realistically I don't think it would ever influence your item choice.
|
As I mentioned, this is exactly the same with IAS/Damage where the faster you attack the better pure damage is, and vice versa.
|
On June 18 2014 03:42 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 03:23 Noya wrote:
There is no such thing as diminishing returns in Dota You're right. Every +100 IAS adds + 0.59 attack per second no matter when you get it.
Isn't there a 400 IAS max?
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 18 2014 05:40 Jaeger wrote:
Isn't there a 400 IAS max?
Yes.
|
Nvm, Why would I help such small minded people
|
On June 18 2014 03:23 Noya wrote:
There is no such thing as diminishing returns in Dota
Kraken shell + stout shield
|
Stacking butterflys will also get a diminising increase of evasion
dodge chance: 1*(0,65)^x where x is your number of butterflys
|
United States15275 Posts
Newbee has recently run mid Faceless Void twice and won both times. It's kind of clever in a weird way. He fulfills the 6.78 and 6.81 ideas of what the mid role should do at the expense of lane control, but mid isn't about lane control anymore so he gets away with it.
P.S. Mu went RoA + INT treads to keep up mana regen in the midgame. Called that shit weeks ago.
|
On June 18 2014 22:46 Irratonalys wrote:
Stacking butterflys will also get a diminising increase of evasion
dodge chance: 1*(0,65)^x where x is your number of butterflys
I think you meant 1 - (0.65 ^ x).
But anyway, Evasion scales exponentially. 1/(1- Evasion)
1x Butterfly gives 35% evasion, which translates to ~53% extra EHP
2x Butterfly gives ~58% evasion, ~138% EHP increase.
The second Butterfly doesn't suffer any diminish in efficiency (in fact it's even better)
|
On June 18 2014 18:05 Mr. Thief wrote:I really liked most things CosmicSpiral said, as well as others. I've played 200 games with Void, my favorite hero. I play Void much different than most others do, so flame or not, I'll give my advice/tips in hopes that it may help someone. (And yes, I registered out of pure love for Void and wanting to share what I love) *Overly-long explanation of how I play early game\laning phase* -remember, to play void like I play him, this is the key stage that will allow you to be a killer from level 6 onward, not just late game. **------** + Show Spoiler +Go safelane with a decent ranged support that can harass and warding for gank protection. None of this offlane business for me. Now, if the other team has mostly ranged Heroes or harass potential, I start with [ Tango, Tango, Salve, Quelling Blade] Your main objective is to not die, while farming as much gold as possible. For this stage, gold > exp. Start with one tango if they have less harass potential. 8 tangos is enough for you to be able to get maximum CS while taking harass. And do not use your salve unless it's a do or die situation. Now, always take your blink at level 1. It can get you that last hit on a fleeing enemy, but mainly this is your key to survival, your escape. Don't even get close to an enemy without having 90 mana for blink. If you are close to death, blink away and pop salve for full escape + heal. This is why you do not use the salve for anything else, it's voids get-out-of-death free card. So, to the point; I play void with risk. I get lane kills at level 6 nearly 100% of the time, it's just exploiting the enemies mistake as soon as they make it. Here's my guide to doing just that: - From level 1, rush 900gp for morbid mask from side shop.
- For skills, time lock first. At lvl 6 your skill set should be 1-1-3-1.
- Farm 1,000gp for MoM recipe. (Of course I'm flamed for rushing MoM)
- Let me explain why I do this. The #1 reason is because if your decent at last hitting, you will complete MoM right before you hit lvl 6. Second, if need be, you can now jungle even with low hp, you will gain more than you lose. Just be sure you have wards and vision, MoM makes you an easy target. Also though, if in trouble, blink away and pop MoM and you will get away almost every time.
So, how do you get your early kill's? Exploit mistakes. While close to your tower, an enemy will get just a bit too close, it will happen. Be ready, chrono the enemy but not your tower. With your time lock, MoM, Tower, and support, well it's a fast kill or double kill. Your main goal is still to not die and continue making gold, but while most voids will be farming safe with a Midas, you can play very offensive if you play smart. If you conserve your mana, you will always have two very reliable escapes. Blink + MoM, and if things get bad, just pop your chrono and get the hell out. No harm done in wasting it to survive at early levels. So in between farming/jungle, it's easy to secure low level ganks with void and MoM. And you can always blink out if you aren't sure. Just remember to always use your towers to your advantage, at low levels it will double your damage output. Yes that was long, but it's the key to how I play him. Now for some general tips and building **------** + Show Spoiler +I win almost every game I play with void these days, because I've perfected my play style over years. So while some will argue with me, take my advice however you want. - Attack speed > DPS almost always.
-rushing battle fury is such a waste, you won't be 1v5ing the enemy at this level,
and you can farm better without it. If you it's get BF, get it late game.
- After your early MoM, get Power Treads next.
- I keep them on str for much needed HP, switch to agi in chrono for better damage and
lifesteal.
- While ganking/farming, rush Maelstrom next.
- Gives you even more attack speed, flash farming, aoe damage in chrono.
- Your attack speed, with MoM is decent for now. Rush a Crystalys for huge burst
damage while in or out of chrono.
- Crits, Maelstrom, and MoM all stack in a way, if you've used your escapes to avoid death
and farmed/ganked decently, then while in a chrono, it's close to 22 minutes in and you
can destroy any hero/s in your chrono.
- Now it will vary a bit. You can get a BKB if you need it, I only get BKB every 1 out of 15 games on average. Because with timing and positioning, and learning how to chrono, most of the time there will be nobody to disable you.
- Next for me, Hyperstone. Major attack speed, then grab your Mjollnir
recipe.
- Many choices really. Second hyperstone in to AC, Daedalus, BKB, MKB, Butterfly.
• Alas, I've wasted enough of your time. One more tip that most people either don't think about, or just can't pull off because it truely does take skill. A wasted chrono isn't good. -** If you have melee friend/s around you, and your looking to gank.. Chrono your target righting the very edge of your chrono. He will still be chrono'd, but all melee friends can attack them without getting frozen. Hard to master, but the praise is nice when done, ha. I can make a small gif so you can see better, let me know. So, I will edit this most likely, when I'm not at work and have time. This is my play style, which works wonders for me, but will also get ridiculed I am sure. If you'd like any help with void, message me, I don't mind helping out. Or just respond here, I'm always looking for feedback and ways to improve.
I start with [Tango, Tango, Salve, Quelling Blade]
If you're blindly getting these, you're going to have trouble against people that will punish your no level 1 stout shield.
Now, always take your blink at level 1
Some lanes like 1v1ing BH or other melee heroes will favour getting timelock or backtrack at level 1.
From level 1, rush 900gp for morbid mask from side shop
Are you telling me that I should get morbid mask before Boots/Treads/PMS? Sounds awful.
get Power Treads next.- I keep them on str for much needed HP, switch to agi in chrono for better damage and
lifesteal.
Switch to agi while farming, switch to int while timewalking/MoMing/chronoing.
Sounds like 2k-3k bracket to me.
|
On June 19 2014 00:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Newbee has recently run mid Faceless Void twice and won both times. It's kind of clever in a weird way. He fulfills the 6.78 and 6.81 ideas of what the mid role should do at the expense of lane control, but mid isn't about lane control anymore so he gets away with it.
P.S. Mu went RoA + INT treads to keep up mana regen in the midgame. Called that shit weeks ago.
EE did this a bunch in pubs in combo with tree a long time ago (a year or more). farming mids is getting popular in both competitive and mm as people stray away from the 4 protect 1 style that just goes badly in recent patch since its better to be greedy now.
in pubs unless you got supports to cover you, you cant secure farm vs ranged heroes unlike pa so its not recommended. its just fine vs melees though. but something like a qop would just completely destroy you in lane.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 19 2014 06:44 HighTimeDotA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 00:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Newbee has recently run mid Faceless Void twice and won both times. It's kind of clever in a weird way. He fulfills the 6.78 and 6.81 ideas of what the mid role should do at the expense of lane control, but mid isn't about lane control anymore so he gets away with it.
P.S. Mu went RoA + INT treads to keep up mana regen in the midgame. Called that shit weeks ago. EE did this a bunch in pubs in combo with tree a long time ago (a year or more). farming mids is getting popular in both competitive and mm as people stray away from the 4 protect 1 style that just goes badly in recent patch since its better to be greedy now. in pubs unless you got supports to cover you, you cant secure farm vs ranged heroes unlike pa so its not recommended. its just fine vs melees though. but something like a qop would just completely destroy you in lane.
Mu went solo against a Viper and went even in CS.
|
On June 19 2014 08:29 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 06:44 HighTimeDotA wrote:On June 19 2014 00:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Newbee has recently run mid Faceless Void twice and won both times. It's kind of clever in a weird way. He fulfills the 6.78 and 6.81 ideas of what the mid role should do at the expense of lane control, but mid isn't about lane control anymore so he gets away with it.
P.S. Mu went RoA + INT treads to keep up mana regen in the midgame. Called that shit weeks ago. EE did this a bunch in pubs in combo with tree a long time ago (a year or more). farming mids is getting popular in both competitive and mm as people stray away from the 4 protect 1 style that just goes badly in recent patch since its better to be greedy now. in pubs unless you got supports to cover you, you cant secure farm vs ranged heroes unlike pa so its not recommended. its just fine vs melees though. but something like a qop would just completely destroy you in lane. Mu went solo against a Viper and went even in CS.
mu mustve been hella better than the viper. pretty hard to lane vs viper with a melee hero, nethertoxin hella strong at last hitting/killing you.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 19 2014 08:35 HighTimeDotA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 08:29 CosmicSpiral wrote:On June 19 2014 06:44 HighTimeDotA wrote:On June 19 2014 00:25 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Newbee has recently run mid Faceless Void twice and won both times. It's kind of clever in a weird way. He fulfills the 6.78 and 6.81 ideas of what the mid role should do at the expense of lane control, but mid isn't about lane control anymore so he gets away with it.
P.S. Mu went RoA + INT treads to keep up mana regen in the midgame. Called that shit weeks ago. EE did this a bunch in pubs in combo with tree a long time ago (a year or more). farming mids is getting popular in both competitive and mm as people stray away from the 4 protect 1 style that just goes badly in recent patch since its better to be greedy now. in pubs unless you got supports to cover you, you cant secure farm vs ranged heroes unlike pa so its not recommended. its just fine vs melees though. but something like a qop would just completely destroy you in lane. Mu went solo against a Viper and went even in CS. mu mustve been hella better than the viper. pretty hard to lane vs viper with a melee hero, nethertoxin hella strong at last hitting/killing you.
Lin didn't play badly at all. Mu went PMS + 2 shared tangoes + a 2-2-1 skill build and never overextended.
|
I thought the counter to midvoid was wierd with morphling+bkb first item and spectre hardcarry without midas+batrider/sjaman/dunno, how greedy can they get
|
I'm surprised that this thread is still alive lol
|
Treads > Maelstrom > Mom seems standard. What about if you mix midas into this, do i drop malestrom or mom? or does the order shift around?
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 22 2014 05:45 deadmau wrote:
Treads > Maelstrom > Mom seems standard. What about if you mix midas into this, do i drop malestrom or mom? or does the order shift around?
You can drop either. I slightly prefer keeping Maelstrom as the delay hurts the window where Time Lock does significant damage.
|
What delay might you be referring to? And how does it hurt Time Lock's window of effectiveness?
|
On June 22 2014 05:45 deadmau wrote:
Treads > Maelstrom > Mom seems standard. What about if you mix midas into this, do i drop malestrom or mom? or does the order shift around?
One of the main reasons to get MoM, is that it allows you 90% of the time to solo kill an offlaner, and you want to abuse that timing to build momentum. Its also decent in early fights provided the other team isn't overly effective at punishing non-4 man chronos, but you can definitely skip it when grabbing midas into maelstrom (typically BKB afterwards). MoM is also a great farming item (especially when combined with maelstrom).
Just make the decision on when you want to time your BKB, but I would say never drop the maelstrom but sometimes drop the MoM (MoM first is better IMO if you are going to get it). Frankly, if you have midas and maelstrom, you already have pretty good AS.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 22 2014 08:20 deadmau wrote:
What delay might you be referring to? And how does it hurt Time Lock's window of effectiveness?
When you buy Midas you delay your first damage item.
Time Lock is only a decent damage steroid up until the midgame; past that, item builds focus on the stun aspect. When you get MoM, you want to acquire momentum by securing kills as soon as possible.
Made a tier list for drafting. Chose to do it similar to a fighting game tier list but expanded the categorizes to S-F instead of S-D. It's meant for my guide so I'd appreciate all input and criticism.
S
+ Show Spoiler +Sand King
Magnus
Elder Titan
Razor
Puck
Jakiro
Dark Seer
Ancient Apparition
Batrider
Invoker
A
+ Show Spoiler +Kunkka
Timbersaw
Mirana
Outworld Devourer
Ember Spirit
Lich
Lion
Witch Doctor
Zeus
Queen of Pain
Nature’s Prophet
Enigma
Enchantress
Leshrac
Disruptor
Visage
Legion Commander
Skywrath Mage
Shadow Shaman
B
+ Show Spoiler +Death Prophet
Beastmaster
Earthshaker
Doom
Naga Siren (support)
Nyx Assassin
Gyrocopter
Troll Warlord
Bane
Lina
Silencer
Ogre Magi
Rubick
Pugna
C
+ Show Spoiler +Morphling
Wraith King
Tidehunter
Clockwerk
Omniknight
Night Stalker
Alchemist
Brewmaster
Io
Undying
Dragon Knight
Centaur Warrunner
Abaddon
Dazzle
Treant Protector
Venomancer
Vengeful Spirit
Clinkz
Templar Assassin
Crystal Maiden
Storm Spirit
Windranger
Warlock
Tinker
Shadow Demon
D
+ Show Spoiler +Sven
Tiny
Lycanthrope
Bristleback
Tusk
Drow Ranger
Shadow Fiend
Viper
Sniper
Weaver
Bounty Hunter
Chen
Keeper of the Light
E
+ Show Spoiler +Axe
Slardar
Huskar
Bloodseeker
Juggernaut
Broodmother
Luna
Meepo
Slark
Lone Druid
Naga Siren (carry)
F
+ Show Spoiler +Pudge
Lifestealer
Spirit Breaker
Chaos Knight
Anti-Mage
Phantom Lancer
Phantom Assassin
Riki
Spectre
Ursa
Medusa
Necrophos
Unknown (not enough experience/abstract familiarity to make an attempt):
+ Show Spoiler +Earth Spirit
Terrorblade
Phoenix
|
Your tier list is debatable, since you certainly like many heroes which I dislike, and vice versa. But a tier list isn't that goes, because naturally 1 dimensional heroes like drow will always be deemed inferior to a versatile hero like naga, despite actually excelling very well in her specific role.
Nonetheless, I think that discussion should be brought elsewhere.
Also, fv doesn't need damage items early on. Attack speed is all you need to kill.
[Edit] oh you mean like tier list of heroes to combo with void......
|
Phoenix is possibly S-tier.
Chrono enemy team and that's either a guarantee for Phoenix to land its Spirits and Sunray, or a basically guaranteed Supernova. You can even Chrono on top of the egg and it'll still go off. I've only played the combo once but the synergy is pretty intuitive.
|
Yeah, phoenix with chrono is totally borked. Phoenix with most things is borked, but egg+chrono is a whole extra level of stupid.
|
Judging by a bunch of recent games he seems to be getting back into the meta, and honestly I dont see why he wouldnt stay. Chrono is just such a ridiculously good spell. Every game seems to be like "yea the other team needs to pull this stunt off to counter Chrono or they will just lose every team fight". He might even turn into first ban/pick material.
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Can Phoenix still dive through chrono?
|
No, that was fixed.
I don't want to try to nitpick the entire tier-list up there since we'd be here all day, but I'd like to know why you put Legion Commander in S-tier but Troll Warlord is only in B-tier? I'm assuming the focus for both is their attack speed steroid. I can get Ogre Magi and Io being lower since they're supports that are weak laners which hurts Void, but what's so much better about Press the Attack than Battle Trance?
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 24 2014 00:04 GentleDrill wrote:
I don't want to try to nitpick the entire tier-list up there since we'd be here all day, but I'd like to know why you put Legion Commander in S-tier but Troll Warlord is only in B-tier? I'm assuming the focus for both is their attack speed steroid. I can get Ogre Magi and Io being lower since they're supports that are weak laners which hurts Void, but what's so much better about Press the Attack than Battle Trance?
Nitpick away. I feel that my justifications for every hero hold up under scrutiny.
Press the Attack removes debuffs and disables while healing. With half the CD of Battle Trance, it is far more useful for fights outside of Chrono. However I don't value attack speed that highly. You should be building him to have decent IAS at some point before the midgame. AS buffs only take priority if you are using a non-damage build.
Additionally she has an AoE nuke that scales with enemy numbers and a mute that instantly takes out a target for 6 seconds. The latter is the most underrated aspect of constructing a good Void team. Reliable lockdown outside Chrono is as high a priority as damage inside it; Batrider is S-tier for that reason alone. Doom would be higher than B if he could reliably control an enemy's movement after using his ultimate.
|
The issue with LC is that Chrono messes with duel a ton and while yes you'd love to duel that one disruptive hero that you couldn't catch in the chrono, more often the thing is you want your team focussing the caught heroes in chrono whereas with an LC you quite often need the team to focus the duel'd hero.
It causes too much tension to be perfect imo. Contrasted to a doom which can take out that one hero that you couldn't chrono while still contributing to the damage in chrono and focusing the most important target.
|
By the way void is a pretty crappy carry in the sense that outside chrono, he just doesn't do much as compared to other carries. Essentially what defines him is really what you can do with your chronos. What makes him a good carry is that he can take down any hero with a good chrono regardless of their farm. You mess up the chrono, you end up pretty underwhelming unless there's a massive farm difference.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 24 2014 02:32 Sn0_Man wrote:
The issue with LC is that Chrono messes with duel a ton and while yes you'd love to duel that one disruptive hero that you couldn't catch in the chrono, more often the thing is you want your team focusing the caught heroes in chrono whereas with an LC you quite often need the team to focus the duel'd hero.
It causes too much tension to be perfect imo. Contrasted to a doom which can take out that one hero that you couldn't chrono while still contributing to the damage in chrono and focusing the most important target.
If you need your entire team to focus on targets inside Chrono, it's a bad draft.
The only meaningful damage Doom can contribute is LVL Death. Having him stand around to tickle people with Scorched Earth is a waste of the hero's strength.
On June 24 2014 02:40 DucK- wrote:
By the way void is a pretty crappy carry in the sense that outside chrono, he just doesn't do much as compared to other carries. Essentially what defines him is really what you can do with your chronos. What makes him a good carry is that he can take down any hero with a good chrono regardless of their farm. You mess up the chrono, you end up pretty underwhelming unless there's a massive farm difference.
Thank you for proving my point. If you build a Void team purely around wombo combos, the margin of error is so small that you will win or lose the fight purely on how many heroes you catch in Chrono. Prioritizing the right targets over the number of targets is more realistic and important.
|
Ur really annoying to attempt to have discussions with cosmic.
Also bump up skywrath he's at LEAST A-tier. His ult is free kill in chrono and his magic amp helps bash dmg (which is doubled in chrono as well) or else disrupts the hero you didn't catch in chrono.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 24 2014 04:20 Sn0_Man wrote:
Ur really annoying to attempt to have discussions with cosmic.
*shrug*
The idea of focusing down heroes in Chrono is antithetical to what makes it a strong setup for wombo combos. The lockdown is so long you can just throw out spells and immediately switch attention to other targets. The only heroes that don't/can't are those with channeling spells or specific individual combos like Chaos Meteor -> Deafening Blast.
Doom is superior to Duel as an ultimate but Legion offers a lot more to Void with her other spells, and a successful Chrono can easily help her snowball with won Duels (many of the good ultimates do incremental damage so she can immediately mop up the stragglers). It's not like she is going to initiate team fights with Duel either, that's suicide. Practically she also gives him more damage in Chrono with Press the Attack + Overwhelming Odds.
On June 24 2014 04:20 Sn0_Man wrote:Also bump up skywrath he's at LEAST A-tier. His ult is free kill in chrono and his magic amp helps bash dmg (which is doubled in chrono as well) or else disrupts the hero you didn't catch in chrono.
I don't value sheer damage as highly as how many different situations it can be applied. SM is a damage engine that offers little else besides a silence that he wants to incorporate into a spell combo. Mystic Flare being split between heroes hurts his value quite a bit in my eyes, especially since you want multiple enemies close together for other spells. Sun Strike has the same issue but Invoker gives you a lot more. Overall SM is too one-dimensional to put higher than B-tier. Hell I would've put Witch Doctor there too if Death Ward didn't go through BKB.
A maxed out Ancient Seal only adds 15.75 damage per hit before factoring in magic resistance.
|
Honestly, I don't feel there's much point discussing the tier list. He's just going to tell you you're wrong in every case and this will continue to be the "everyone posting futilely at cosmic while he never changes his opinion" thread.
|
SoCal8910 Posts
On June 24 2014 04:20 Sn0_Man wrote:
The issue with LC is that Chrono messes with duel a ton and while yes you'd love to duel that one disruptive hero that you couldn't catch in the chrono, more often the thing is you want your team focussing the caught heroes in chrono whereas with an LC you quite often need the team to focus the duel'd hero.
It causes too much tension to be perfect imo. Contrasted to a doom which can take out that one hero that you couldn't chrono while still contributing to the damage in chrono and focusing the most important target
...
Ur really annoying to attempt to have discussions with cosmic.
Also bump up skywrath he's at LEAST A-tier. His ult is free kill in chrono and his magic amp helps bash dmg (which is doubled in chrono as well) or else disrupts the hero you didn't catch in chrono.
On June 24 2014 07:35 Belisarius wrote:
Honestly, I don't feel there's much point discussing the tier list. He's just going to tell you you're wrong in every case and this will continue to be the "everyone posting futilely at cosmic while he never changes his opinion" thread.
i've seen him post elsewhere on the strategy forums and it seems like he's very stubborn, despite being "open to nitpicking."
your criticism of LC's synergy with void is 100% fair. when she disables, you want everyone focusing down the dueled target to ensure that she gets bonus dmg and snowballs. while it could be argued that using duel as simply a disable is okay..why wouldn't you want to give her more bonus dmg on top of that disable? not to mention if she loses the duel bc everyone was focusing in chrono.
cosmic, no one is sayingh that she is BAD when combo'd with void..just that she shouldn't be "S-tier."
|
As a spinoff from this whole LC/Void thing - here's a question: How does it work out if you try to duel someone who is standing at the edge of the Chrono? Does it work? Can you get a free kill off it?
I don't think I've ever seen it happen so I'm curious.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 24 2014 19:47 -Celestial- wrote:
As a spinoff from this whole LC/Void thing - here's a question: How does it work out if you try to duel someone who is standing at the edge of the Chrono? Does it work? Can you get a free kill off it?
I don't think I've ever seen it happen so I'm curious.
Probably same as dueling someone who is fiend's gripped. And you are more likely to get a kill if you are getting hit due to MoC (and sometimes blademail) anyways.
|
more often that not, you just want to catch that one hero in a chrono. Going wombocombo is bad
|
SoCal8910 Posts
On June 24 2014 22:57 Erasme wrote:
more often that not, you just want to catch that one hero in a chrono. Going wombocombo is bad
dunno, i feel like dropping a macropyre or disruptor ulti inside chrono is pretty solid lol
|
On June 25 2014 00:12 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 22:57 Erasme wrote:
more often that not, you just want to catch that one hero in a chrono. Going wombocombo is bad dunno, i feel like dropping a macropyre or disruptor ulti inside chrono is pretty solid lol
deathward + chronosphere = wubwubwubwubwub
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 25 2014 01:05 HighTimeDotA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 00:12 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 24 2014 22:57 Erasme wrote:
more often that not, you just want to catch that one hero in a chrono. Going wombocombo is bad dunno, i feel like dropping a macropyre or disruptor ulti inside chrono is pretty solid lol deathward + chronosphere = wubwubwubwubwub
Add midnight pulse with follow-up black-hole?
|
On June 25 2014 00:12 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 22:57 Erasme wrote:
more often that not, you just want to catch that one hero in a chrono. Going wombocombo is bad dunno, i feel like dropping a macropyre or disruptor ulti inside chrono is pretty solid lol
I think Erasme's point wasn't that "its bad because its ineffective". Its that "relying on a wombocombo with Chronosphere to win you games is bad because its unreliable".
I'd tend to agree with that viewpoint for a variety of reasons. If you're relying on your combo being the big killer in teamfights then you can't fight without that combo up. It means you have to keep your combo heroes together if there's likely to be a fight anywhere. It also means you have to rely on your enemy screwing up for you to be able to combo enough of them properly to win the fight. For pubs its better to build carries in such a way that you're not relying on a huge coordinated combo with other players on the team; because you typically can't rely on them.
Combos can be awesome but unless you're stacking and Skyping with people to do it then you're going to run into problems if its the way you're relying on teamfighting until Void can get strong enough to just kill everything himself.
|
United States15275 Posts
Sorry Sno_Man, I was wrong about LC. Where do you think she should go?
Shadow Shaman moved from B -> A (mistake, don’t know why he was there)
Skywrath Mage moved from B -> A (undervalued Ancient Seal amp, it’s ridiculous)
Pugna moved from D to B (underrated damage output + Nether Ward control)
Naga Siren (support) moved from C to B (underrated Song setup, Ensnare CC)
Phoenix moved from N/A to S (tentative)
Legion Commander moved from S -> A (overrated Overwhelming Odds radius and downplayed issues with Duel + Chrono interaction, may be moved lower)
Alchemist moved from B -> C (overrated the damage of Spray + Concoction combo)
Dazzle moved from B -> C (overrated the utility of Shallow Grave)
Morphling moved from B -> C (underestimated farming issues unless Void is offlane)
Treant Protector moved from B -> C (put too much value on Overgrowth)
Dragon Knight moved from B to C (typical item builds do less damage than initially thought)
Move Up? – Death Prophet, Kunkka, Tinker, Brewmaster, Crystal Maiden, Warlock
Move Down? – Visage, Bane, Outworld Devourer, Nyx Assassin
Should Sven/Windranger/Meepo/Venge be separated according to role like Naga?
|
Sunder certainly does, no idea about reflection.
I don't think an entire tier list of allies is nearly as important as a game plan and decent overall composition
DP and Kunkka are the nuts. Brew is very meh imo. CM sounds amazing but you basically need a blink on her in order to reliably get more than 1-2s of her ult off on chrono'd units. Warlock is probably decent for bonds + upheaval but I don't think he's nuts.
Sven doesn't play well with void as support or carry unless ur void is offlane but even then he doesn't offer anything uniquely good unless u chrono guys on the edge which simply isn't reliable. Tiny's huge chopping range and propensity to have a wisp to take him anywhere you want to chrono somebody may deserve mention.
Dunno what tier visage is but he's the real deal don't drop him. Bane handles not 1 but 2 heroes that you couldn't chrono, I think he's legit as well even if his "blow them up in chrono" applications are limited. OD is nothing special with void, nyx is also underwhelming.
Meepo always sucks, WR's always legit, etc. No need to split them out imo.
|
United States15275 Posts
On June 25 2014 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote:
Sunder certainly does, no idea about reflection.
I assume Reflection follows the same rules as other illusions: moves if casted on Void, doesn't move if casted on anyone else. TB should still be bad though. Farm-heavy, Meta CD is too long to sync up with Chrono, and can't cast Reflection on allies.
On June 25 2014 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote:I don't think an entire tier list of allies is nearly as important as a game plan and decent overall composition
I made the tier list out of dissatisfaction with other guides. Most of them emphasize damage in Chrono as the primary goal in choosing supports/mids, yet you almost never see that at the competitive level. When Newbee ran mid Void last week they almost always picked Enchantress/Lion as supports; last summer, you would never see EG pick Void without Dark Seer; SEA teams love running Prophet as the offlaner. These heroes don't have massive AoE combos but clearly they're being valued for something else. So I try to account for adding utility to Void outside Chrono, CC outside Chrono, strength in the laning phase, farm distribution, how they deal with the standard hero counters, how they scale throughout the game, if they make good Chronos/spell combos easier to land and more punishing when it happens, etc. The list itself is not that meaningful.
Yeah, if you only run the "best of the best" the overall team will be pretty garbage.
On June 25 2014 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote:
DP and Kunkka are the nuts. Brew is very meh imo. CM sounds amazing but you basically need a blink on her in order to reliably get more than 1-2s of her ult off on chrono'd units. Warlock is probably decent for bonds + upheaval but I don't think he's nuts.
Ghost Ship is the best. I'm surprised Chinese teams haven't tried the combination more often.
I feel like DP and Doom have the same issue. Both are heroes who can build incredibly tanky and want to run around the battlefield causing chaos. If you land a really good Chrono, Doom uses his ulti on someone else and has nothing else to do. If you land a bad Chrono Doom uses his ulti on someone else and chases after the rest of the team. DP has it way better with Exorcism but it still has to be a really good Chrono to make her stay still.
Brew-Void doesn't work well together but pro teams keep running it. I think they're treating it like the old QoP picks: get levels and go nuts to indirectly protect the carry.
Freezing Field damage is fickle, especially when opponents are standing still. I'm wondering if the ice explosions are distributed in a truly random way or if they're somehow manipulable. Otherwise her contribution is too unreliable IMO.
Immolation from the Golems works in Chrono and they stack.
On June 25 2014 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote:Sven doesn't play well with void as support or carry unless ur void is offlane but even then he doesn't offer anything uniquely good unless u chrono guys on the edge which simply isn't reliable. Tiny's huge chopping range and propensity to have a wisp to take him anywhere you want to chrono somebody may deserve mention.
I think both support and carry Sven are terrible in terms of synergy, but are both equally bad? Or is one worse enough to warrant a separate category? Support Sven would still have Warcry and Hammer except he wouldn't demand much farm compared to his counterpart.
On June 25 2014 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote:Dunno what tier visage is but he's the real deal don't drop him. Bane handles not 1 but 2 heroes that you couldn't chrono, I think he's legit as well even if his "blow them up in chrono" applications are limited. OD is nothing special with void, nyx is also underwhelming.
Meepo always sucks, WR's always legit, etc. No need to split them out imo.
I put Visage as A. He used to be S when Familiars moved inside Chrono. Soul Assumption feels like a double-edged sword though. If your team can get off the big combos he cleans up; if they're interrupted, Visage is largely useless outside of Familiar damage at the edge.
Not even OD ultimate? Essence Shift is also one of the few things that makes Refresher on Void a consistent pickup.
Okay
|
Holy crap CosmicSpiral, I don't know how you think about FV on that scale where you can divy up all the heroes in to tiers like that. But I suppose if you really love and understand the hero it's possible, I have heroes I play up a bit too, but you're something else...
And it's hard to disagree or agree with your tier sometimes, it's just a bit much too think about xD
|
On June 25 2014 01:09 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 00:12 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 24 2014 22:57 Erasme wrote:
more often that not, you just want to catch that one hero in a chrono. Going wombocombo is bad dunno, i feel like dropping a macropyre or disruptor ulti inside chrono is pretty solid lol I think Erasme's point wasn't that "its bad because its ineffective". Its that "relying on a wombocombo with Chronosphere to win you games is bad because its unreliable". I'd tend to agree with that viewpoint for a variety of reasons. If you're relying on your combo being the big killer in teamfights then you can't fight without that combo up. It means you have to keep your combo heroes together if there's likely to be a fight anywhere. It also means you have to rely on your enemy screwing up for you to be able to combo enough of them properly to win the fight. For pubs its better to build carries in such a way that you're not relying on a huge coordinated combo with other players on the team; because you typically can't rely on them. Combos can be awesome but unless you're stacking and Skyping with people to do it then you're going to run into problems if its the way you're relying on teamfighting until Void can get strong enough to just kill everything himself.
Pretty mch yeah.
I hate relying on combo because it needs to be perfect to actually works. You need to be the one initiating, you need to land all your spells perfectly and you need to not be interrupted by anything.
And I believe top tier teams agree with me, which is why you see void picked as a mid or as an offlane. He will be picked to kill the #1 priority in teamfight or he's used to gank with low cd spells like sunstrike or aa blast
|
I think he is the most imbalanced hero at the moment for me. I cant remember a game I win against him
|
On July 01 2014 05:28 Laserist wrote:
I think he is the most imbalanced hero at the moment for me. I cant remember a game I win against him
I used to counter him with TA, no so effective anymore with the recent buffs.
|
Anti-mage is pretty dam strong against void, probably my #1 pick against him. Easilly outfarm the void, jump him with abyssal before he can chrono or eblade and blow him up.
|
On July 01 2014 18:36 NeoRussia wrote:
Anti-mage is pretty dam strong against void, probably my #1 pick against him. Easilly outfarm the void, jump him with abyssal before he can chrono or eblade and blow him up.
Most of the time I see that matchup its the opposite. Void needs MoM or maybe MoM + another 2-2.5k item and the AM is food. With assistance he needs less. AMs never seem to reach Abyssal state unless his team carries him through the early/midgame by doing well 4v5.
Void is one of the very few heroes an AM needs to be very careful of running into. 1v1 he can either beat or flee from just about anything else.
|
On July 01 2014 18:36 NeoRussia wrote:
Anti-mage is pretty dam strong against void, probably my #1 pick against him. Easilly outfarm the void, jump him with abyssal before he can chrono or eblade and blow him up.
Void come online waaay earlier because of chrono and support from team. AM escalate the farm after BF but void will have a field day all game long with 4 min midas + IAS+ dps items while AM tries to farm jungle etc.. There is a small time window where AM can do something ahead of void but eventually void's overall teamfight/tanking presence and dps potential will let him handle AM pretty easily. It depends on who initiates better but void has a clear advantage on that either.
4v5 prevails early to mid game and free farm void will handle late game by himself.
|
if you have similar skilled supports/mids/off on both teams am would easily outcarry void.
but am needs about 15-20mins farm to roflstomp everyone and cant really fight effectively before that if his team is feeding. void can help and turn fights better than am early on and is a safer bet in solo q.
|
I go ... starting tems ... helm of iron will ... boots (treads) ... armlet ... lifesteal ... maelstrom ... daedalus ... butterfly...85% win rate
|
On July 02 2014 02:08 HighTimeDotA wrote:
if you have similar skilled supports/mids/off on both teams am would easily outcarry void.
but am needs about 15-20mins farm to roflstomp everyone and cant really fight effectively before that if his team is feeding. void can help and turn fights better than am early on and is a safer bet in solo q.
that is a too general statement. what does "outcarry" even mean in your case? fv is an initiator and disabler while am is more of a splitpusher and skirmisher. it really comes down to if team fv can find a strong initiaton or if team am outpushes and outskirmishes team fv. void can enable winning situations in a much more straightforward way than am which is why he is a safer bet in soloq (by a significant margin apparently). am's damage being higher and utility being lower makes him more team reliant. does "easily outcarry" include the massive teamfight utility void brings to the table and the fact that am cannot reliably duel an equally farmed void because a timelock chain at the wrong moment would turn the fight for void in favor?
|
AM is easily one of the weakest carries....they only reason he's ever picked is he comes online faster and can end the game before 45 mins. Past that a 6-slotted AM gets eaten alive by a 6-slotted Tiny, Morphling, Void etc.
|
On July 02 2014 05:14 ref4 wrote:
AM is easily one of the weakest carries....they only reason he's ever picked is he comes online faster and can end the game before 45 mins. Past that a 6-slotted AM gets eaten alive by a 6-slotted Tiny, Morphling, Void etc.
Morphling pretty much gets shit on by AM in every aspect of realistic play, however.
|
outcarry means you have more game impact than the enemy carry.
am has weak early game but due to the fact he has a low BAT, fast ms, and blink he will farm faster and become out of control much sooner than any other carry. the problem in pubs is that people dont understand how to play with an am as teammate.
|
On July 02 2014 05:39 HighTimeDotA wrote:
outcarry means you have more game impact than the enemy carry.
am has weak early game but due to the fact he has a low BAT, fast ms, and blink he will farm faster and become out of control much sooner than any other carry. the problem in pubs is that people dont understand how to play with an am as teammate.
Well, pros doesnt exactly seem to agree with that either if you look at AM vs Void representation....
While its probably even worse for AMs in pubs, you make it sound like "if people just know how to play AM is super good and counters Void", which is hardly the case.
|
On July 02 2014 16:45 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 05:39 HighTimeDotA wrote:
outcarry means you have more game impact than the enemy carry.
am has weak early game but due to the fact he has a low BAT, fast ms, and blink he will farm faster and become out of control much sooner than any other carry. the problem in pubs is that people dont understand how to play with an am as teammate. Well, pros doesnt exactly seem to agree with that either if you look at AM vs Void representation.... While its probably even worse for AMs in pubs, you make it sound like "if people just know how to play AM is super good and counters Void", which is hardly the case.
thing is, am have to wait until he blink in, before void throw his ult, but also it depends on the other picks on your team and opponent.
if good other team8s void can hold his ult.
|
Am is bad in the sense that void will be able to kill you down if you get caught in chrono. But if they have no answer to your split push shenanigans into massive outfarm, or if void fails with ulti, then that's your opening.
|
On July 02 2014 16:45 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 05:39 HighTimeDotA wrote:
outcarry means you have more game impact than the enemy carry.
am has weak early game but due to the fact he has a low BAT, fast ms, and blink he will farm faster and become out of control much sooner than any other carry. the problem in pubs is that people dont understand how to play with an am as teammate. Well, pros doesnt exactly seem to agree with that either if you look at AM vs Void representation.... While its probably even worse for AMs in pubs, you make it sound like "if people just know how to play AM is super good and counters Void", which is hardly the case.
i never said am counters void. i said am can effectively outcarry most heroes if he and his team plays around the fact that he is an am. he has such poor winrate in pubs in comparison to other carries because people either dont know when to pick him, how to play him, or how to play around him.
btw am has higher winrate than void in the "pro scene".
|
United States15275 Posts
When the Chinese counterpicked AM with Void, they focused on item scaling when both carries went Battlefury. Their rationale was that as long as Void stayed close in overall gold, he could itemize more efficiently even with less farm. AM needed to spend considerable gold to even imitate the effects of Void's passives (BFly -> Backtrack, Abyssal -> Time Lock stun) while Void could choose to stack effects (Bfly + Backtrack) or cancel out AM's advantages (BKB against Mana Burn and Mana Void, Chrono to deal with evasion + illusions, blah blah blah). Of course AM split-pushing still worked as teams didn't build global strategies around Chrono back then; it still works now unless you have Invoker/AA/Prophet or taken down the T1s early.
Nothing's really changed on that front.
|
I freaking loved playing void offlane, its really fun and hard to counter once you have a good team going
|
United States15275 Posts
After watching WD Pro Series today, I found myself wondering why players do not opt for an Orb of Venom after they go MoM first. While Oov is usually a waste on this hero during the laning phase, it emphasizes Mask's secondary function as a chasing tool. Berserk lets Void be more than a walking melee creep after Time Walk -> Chrono, but it doesn't guarantee the right sequence of Time Lock procs to kill a fleeing opponent. Depending on a host of factors (base enemy MS, starting distance, Phase Boots) the amount of possible hits varies. And if you got a proc to kill someone in Chrono, it means you have to start all over again.
Poison Attack just makes this aspect of the game easier to accomplish. The damage aspect in negligible but the slow may be worthwhile for post-Chrono scrambles. Getting a ~42% MS advantage for 7.5-8 seconds is quite strong considering it's the same timespan where TW would be on cooldown. Even if Berserk runs out in the process of whacking away on someone, you'll still have a good shot at completing the kill. Certainly Void would not have to worry about giving up slots that could be reserved for something else. TP/Boots/PMS/MoM leaves unreserved space for 7-10 minutes (depending on whether Maelstrom, BKB, or Aghs is the next purchase). Additionally the orb doesn't interfere with MoM's lifesteal and interacts normally with Lightning. You can conceivably keep it until you complete a Mjollnir, then dump it for Ogre Club as you start BKB.
|
I hate how popular this hero is at the moment, chronos are such a hit or miss thing where you either dodge the thing completely or end up in it and die guaranteed. Its not interesting to watch and very frustrating to play against (uncoordinated pubplays). Icefraug remove from gaem pliz
|
That's kind of how it is in pubs, but if you're co-ordinated enough, you can swing chronospheres in your favor via cool positioning skills like Venge's swap, Rubick lift, Deafening Blast, and save people in chrono by simply disabling the Void. Euls and Halberd are great items for this. There's also some spells which stay active through chrono like DP and Sand King ults.
|
On July 14 2014 04:42 Fencar wrote:
That's kind of how it is in pubs, but if you're co-ordinated enough, you can swing chronospheres in your favor via cool positioning skills like Venge's swap, Rubick lift, Deafening Blast, and save people in chrono by simply disabling the Void. Euls and Halberd are great items for this. There's also some spells which stay active through chrono like DP and Sand King ults.
If you're good you can also activate many abilities like refraction or items like euls or blademail to waste the chrono. I find this is impossible to rely on in pubs though because even if you're fast enough the rest of your team won't be, or faceless's team will catch up, and at my starter level many games are decided by which team has the faceless since it's so hard to be bad at this hero.
|
There' always the good chrono that will win team fights ----> win games.
Then there are the EE and ClassicJimmy chronos that lose you the game
|
The absolute worst thing you can do as void is hang onto your ult to try and catch the entire enemy team in it. With Agh's, that shit has like a 7 second cooldown, if you can catch somebody, fucking catch them.
|
When do you get mkb as void if your enemy team has a riki (smoke cloud) or PA?
Do you get it after mask and before crystalys or after mask and after crystalys?
|
United States15275 Posts
Depending on the amount of followup stuns, it may be unnecessary to purchase MKB. Chronosphere will negate evasion and invisibility, including the latter provided by Shadow Dance.
|
On July 15 2014 12:49 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Depending on the amount of followup stuns, it may be unnecessary to purchase MKB. Chronosphere will negate evasion and invisibility, including the latter provided by Shadow Dance.
Shit, I was feeding a bit and had packet loss (up to double digits) which prevented me from activating mask 2 times in a row. I guess more damage would have prevented the need for true strike in the first place. Thanks.
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On July 15 2014 12:49 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Depending on the amount of followup stuns, it may be unnecessary to purchase MKB. Chronosphere will negate evasion and invisibility, including the latter provided by Shadow Dance.
Oh you can see a shadow dancing slark in chrono? :o
|
On July 15 2014 18:43 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 12:49 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Depending on the amount of followup stuns, it may be unnecessary to purchase MKB. Chronosphere will negate evasion and invisibility, including the latter provided by Shadow Dance. Oh you can see a shadow dancing slark in chrono? :o
You sure as shit can. Darkterror don't give a fuck.
I can't really think of many situations I would consider getting an MKB on Void. I mean that's 5400 gold we're talking about, that's no chump change. You could get a Refresher with that kind of spare cash. I guess if you're going against a team that consists of PA, Tinker, Troll, Riki, and KotL? Yeah, maybe get an MKB.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 15 2014 23:27 HollowLord wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 18:43 ahswtini wrote:On July 15 2014 12:49 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Depending on the amount of followup stuns, it may be unnecessary to purchase MKB. Chronosphere will negate evasion and invisibility, including the latter provided by Shadow Dance. Oh you can see a shadow dancing slark in chrono? :o You sure as shit can. Darkterror don't give a fuck. I can't really think of many situations I would consider getting an MKB on Void. I mean that's 5400 gold we're talking about, that's no chump change. You could get a Refresher with that kind of spare cash. I guess if you're going against a team that consists of PA, Tinker, Troll, Riki, and KotL? Yeah, maybe get an MKB.
And against such team, you are of higher profit just getting bkb and chronoing (and killing) PA/tinker.
|
On July 16 2014 03:23 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 23:27 HollowLord wrote:On July 15 2014 18:43 ahswtini wrote:On July 15 2014 12:49 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Depending on the amount of followup stuns, it may be unnecessary to purchase MKB. Chronosphere will negate evasion and invisibility, including the latter provided by Shadow Dance. Oh you can see a shadow dancing slark in chrono? :o You sure as shit can. Darkterror don't give a fuck. I can't really think of many situations I would consider getting an MKB on Void. I mean that's 5400 gold we're talking about, that's no chump change. You could get a Refresher with that kind of spare cash. I guess if you're going against a team that consists of PA, Tinker, Troll, Riki, and KotL? Yeah, maybe get an MKB. And against such team, you are of higher profit just getting bkb and chronoing (and killing) PA/tinker.
Pretty much, yeah.
|
fuck this hero, im sick of seeing him in every game...
well jokes aside he really is so annoying to play against.
i lose 90% of my games against this hero. how do you counter him, when u play pub with 4 people u dont know??
|
pick a hero that can initiate and jump on him and bait bad spheres. or play something like morph and carry your team.
|
most of the time when i pick a hard carry, my team feeds. so i kind of gave that up already.
also i played void right now and the enemy raped me. ok my team had no synergy with chrono and the enemy team had strong picks. but still wtf. sometimes dota makes me so sad...
|
On July 25 2014 02:22 hunter_x wrote:fuck this hero, im sick of seeing him in every game... well jokes aside he really is so annoying to play against. i lose 90% of my games against this hero. how do you counter him, when u play pub with 4 people u dont know??
there are some heroes that work well.
earthshaker can stun him from a mile away till he gets bkb
vengeful spirit!!
shadow demon defensive disruption kind of ruins his day,
tide hunter is meaty, lanes pretty well against him, and ravage wrecks chrono...
any eth-blade heroes (tinker/morph) do a pretty good job if you are ahead on farm.
good rubick players can have a field day with chronosphere
euls carriers like death prophet are good, too
But really its mostly a playstyle thing. You have to be very aware of positioning, and depend on your supports to make plays to save you in chrono at key times. Your team has to take advantage of times when chrono is down.
|
The worst thing I see void players do is stacking damage items on him. I see builds like midas bf into Daedalus. Wise way to be a shitty carry. Void needs attack speed first more than straight up damage.
|
I just can't believe people max out backtrack second before timewalk...
http://dotabuff.com/heroes/faceless-void/builds
timewalk scales so well and its range upgrades are really crucial from level 8-12. This makes a chrono more effective
and yet in pubs, people max out a luck dependent passive and fight with a level 1 timewalk which can potentially lead to bad chronos... IMO, max timelock and timewalk first with maybe 1 point in backtrack until level 12.
|
On August 04 2014 12:30 Discarder wrote:I just can't believe people max out backtrack second before timewalk... http://dotabuff.com/heroes/faceless-void/buildstimewalk scales so well and its range upgrades are really crucial from level 8-12. This makes a chrono more effective and yet in pubs, people max out a luck dependent passive and fight with a level 1 timewalk which can potentially lead to bad chronos... IMO, max timelock and timewalk first with maybe 1 point in backtrack until level 12.
i don't think its that black and white with void tbh. time walk has 900 range at lv 2, lv 3 puts him just short of a blink dagger range.
i think the most common void build is maxing bash, 2-3 pts timewalk, rest in backtrack.
backtrack offers a lot of ehp especially if you are going treads-aghanims route. 25% extra life when you are building for midgame team fight is a lot, especially because backtrack has extra value soaking up high damage nukes/bursts.
so anyway i think both builds are legit but its situational
|
Faceless Void is an amazing hero in pubs for a lot of reasons, but I've been playing a lot of him lately and I came to conclude that the reason he can be so powerful in pubs is particularly because of one main reason: There is absolutely no hero in the game who can punish poor positioning more than Faceless Void. Assuming you don't get completely obliterated in lane, once you have Mask of Madness you can 1v1 a solid 80-90% of heroes with chrono (number pulled out of my ass).
Offlane Windrunner steps a little bit too far past the tower? Dead. Enemy support alone in the jungle? Dead. Late-game, enemy carry is farming just a liiiiiittle bit past the tower? Dead.
Pub players have terrible positioning, and absolutely no hero in the game can completely abuse your enemy's poor positioning more than Void.
|
On August 05 2014 23:44 HollowLord wrote:
Faceless Void is an amazing hero in pubs for a lot of reasons, but I've been playing a lot of him lately and I came to conclude that the reason he can be so powerful in pubs is particularly because of one main reason: There is absolutely no hero in the game who can punish poor positioning more than Faceless Void. Assuming you don't get completely obliterated in lane, once you have Mask of Madness you can 1v1 a solid 80-90% of heroes with chrono (number pulled out of my ass).
Offlane Windrunner steps a little bit too far past the tower? Dead. Enemy support alone in the jungle? Dead. Late-game, enemy carry is farming just a liiiiiittle bit past the tower? Dead.
Pub players have terrible positioning, and absolutely no hero in the game can completely abuse your enemy's poor positioning more than Void.
Maybe Storm Spirit?
|
On July 25 2014 02:22 hunter_x wrote:fuck this hero, im sick of seeing him in every game... well jokes aside he really is so annoying to play against. i lose 90% of my games against this hero. how do you counter him, when u play pub with 4 people u dont know??
If you're trying to counter Void with hero picks, the best way to do it is to pick heroes he can't burst down in Chrono. You can do this either for going with meaty tanky guys like Centaur or Bristleback or you can do it with heroes that have the innate ability to survive like Abaddon or Leoric. The less people Void can burst down, the less food he has, the less he can snowball.
|
On August 05 2014 23:46 GaribaldiSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 23:44 HollowLord wrote:
Faceless Void is an amazing hero in pubs for a lot of reasons, but I've been playing a lot of him lately and I came to conclude that the reason he can be so powerful in pubs is particularly because of one main reason: There is absolutely no hero in the game who can punish poor positioning more than Faceless Void. Assuming you don't get completely obliterated in lane, once you have Mask of Madness you can 1v1 a solid 80-90% of heroes with chrono (number pulled out of my ass).
Offlane Windrunner steps a little bit too far past the tower? Dead. Enemy support alone in the jungle? Dead. Late-game, enemy carry is farming just a liiiiiittle bit past the tower? Dead.
Pub players have terrible positioning, and absolutely no hero in the game can completely abuse your enemy's poor positioning more than Void. Maybe Storm Spirit?
Except Storm Spirit actually does take some time to kill an enemy, all things considered. There is a chance for reaction. You zip in, pop the orchid, you jump around a bunch, you drop all the remnants. By the time you're done killing the guy you've gotta run your fat ass away with a mana pool that's possibly dangerously low. But with Void? Dead in 5 seconds, every time, you have MoM and Time walk, you leave without any issue.
|
Storm also doesn't scale like void. They are pretty different.
I think void is in a pretty good spot balance wise, he is just too flexible right now. Is like to see a nerf to time walk mana cost and/or range scaling to try to force him out of the offlane. It's kind of dumb that he can be run in any position.
That and maybe make chrono not reveal invis, just to give it a slight weakness without destroying the hero.
Let's not forget 6 months ago when he was rare as can be
|
United States15275 Posts
Offlane Void is very overrated right now. I don't know why people are complaining about a fad that's a feast or famine strategy.
|
On August 06 2014 11:51 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Offlane Void is very overrated right now. I don't know why people are complaining about a fad that's a feast or famine strategy.
Yep always said so. Teams do not realise that when eg picked offlane void for universe, its usually a late pick against lineups that cannot punish him or that he would have a good game. Then suddenly everyone thinks void is a good offlane and first picks him. Prioritising void is one of the reasons why many teams fucked up in ti4.
|
(im not talking about ti4 here but in pub captains mode or ap)
i think the advantage is you can draft him early and flex him wherever you want. if they changed his skillset so he wasnt as great at escaping lv 1 ganks, you couldnt draft him and move him to mid or offlane 3-4 picks later, or if you did, he'd at least be more vulnerable
he's just very flexible. its not the offlane function itself that is wrong
|
On July 25 2014 02:22 hunter_x wrote:fuck this hero, im sick of seeing him in every game... well jokes aside he really is so annoying to play against. i lose 90% of my games against this hero. how do you counter him, when u play pub with 4 people u dont know??
Well I lost majority of games against him and finally begin to understand(I think).
What I do is to face against him. I pick a good harasser/escaper hero like weaver and try to drag him back in lane. I don't trust pubs to know how to play against him even stack friends.
I believe the right approach is to have some disables against him and initiate on him first. It is very hard to gain advantage after got initiated on.
Or stay further back with a disable mechanism(either item or a long range skill) and force him to buy a bkb. But this will promise lesser success.
If your team is constantly out positioned, you'll lose no matter what, anyways.
|
I was playing Void the other day and one hero I had a lot of difficulty catching was a Blink Sniper. His range is such that he can already sit well out of range of a Chrono yet can still attack my allies. He also has a quick enough cast animation that he can blink out when I timewalk in (even from fog, its fast enough if he is expecting it). I'm not saying Sniper is the Void counter but he is very annoying to play against if Chrono is your team's only form of initiation as a smart Sniper can always anticipate it coming.
|
On August 06 2014 18:35 wuhan_clan wrote:
I was playing Void the other day and one hero I had a lot of difficulty catching was a Blink Sniper. His range is such that he can already sit well out of range of a Chrono yet can still attack my allies. He also has a quick enough cast animation that he can blink out when I timewalk in (even from fog, its fast enough if he is expecting it). I'm not saying Sniper is the Void counter but he is very annoying to play against if Chrono is your team's only form of initiation as a smart Sniper can always anticipate it coming.
get blink urself
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 06 2014 19:25 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 18:35 wuhan_clan wrote:
I was playing Void the other day and one hero I had a lot of difficulty catching was a Blink Sniper. His range is such that he can already sit well out of range of a Chrono yet can still attack my allies. He also has a quick enough cast animation that he can blink out when I timewalk in (even from fog, its fast enough if he is expecting it). I'm not saying Sniper is the Void counter but he is very annoying to play against if Chrono is your team's only form of initiation as a smart Sniper can always anticipate it coming. get blink urself
Won't this sniper be theoretically be able to blink out, assuming instant reaction? Key word is theoretical, since i have little clue on how game works server-side wise, so impact of pings is rather unknown.
|
United States15275 Posts
On August 06 2014 15:12 ahw wrote:
(im not talking about ti4 here but in pub captains mode or ap)
i think the advantage is you can draft him early and flex him wherever you want. if they changed his skillset so he wasnt as great at escaping lv 1 ganks, you couldnt draft him and move him to mid or offlane 3-4 picks later, or if you did, he'd at least be more vulnerable
he's just very flexible. its not the offlane function itself that is wrong
Why shouldn't he be great at escaping level 1 ganks? The lowered mana cost of TW is one of the only reasons people pick him these days. Back when TW cost 120 mana he was a liability in the safelane. If you could force him to use it before level 3, he became useless.
|
On August 07 2014 00:47 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 19:25 ChunderBoy wrote:On August 06 2014 18:35 wuhan_clan wrote:
I was playing Void the other day and one hero I had a lot of difficulty catching was a Blink Sniper. His range is such that he can already sit well out of range of a Chrono yet can still attack my allies. He also has a quick enough cast animation that he can blink out when I timewalk in (even from fog, its fast enough if he is expecting it). I'm not saying Sniper is the Void counter but he is very annoying to play against if Chrono is your team's only form of initiation as a smart Sniper can always anticipate it coming. get blink urself Won't this sniper be theoretically be able to blink out, assuming instant reaction? Key word is theoretical, since i have little clue on how game works server-side wise, so impact of pings is rather unknown.
You still have to turn in the direction you want to blink in. It would be very hard to react to.
|
On August 07 2014 00:55 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 15:12 ahw wrote:
(im not talking about ti4 here but in pub captains mode or ap)
i think the advantage is you can draft him early and flex him wherever you want. if they changed his skillset so he wasnt as great at escaping lv 1 ganks, you couldnt draft him and move him to mid or offlane 3-4 picks later, or if you did, he'd at least be more vulnerable
he's just very flexible. its not the offlane function itself that is wrong Why shouldn't he be great at escaping level 1 ganks? The lowered mana cost of TW is one of the only reasons people pick him these days. Back when TW cost 120 mana he was a liability in the safelane. If you could force him to use it before level 3, he became useless.
because they buffed chrono and bash in chrono to compensate for a laning weakness. i dont know i think a hero with his toolkit SHOULD be a liability in the safe lane tbh
|
For what it's worth if you wanted to nerf void offlane specifically you could probably do so by nerfing or changing agh's scepter on FV. What you often see a lot out of offlane voids is a agh's 1st/2nd item (usually midas->aghs) that allows them to go and setup a constant stream of team ganks with aghs even though FV has poor damage output at that point. Yeah offlane void can go a more traditional build, but the reduced farm means they're not going to have the same kill potential inside of chrono early on which damages the viability of the strat. Sceptre on offlane FV makes him flexible in game because he can still carry/snowball, but even if he doesn't he has a great 6s disable on a 60s CD. The fact that at level 6-15 aghs reduces the CD to 60s means that a FV with just midas/aghs can roam and gank with teammates to make up for not farming well in the offlane.
Pubwise I don't think FVs have the same luxury because they can't count on allies the same way. The key there is to just try and punish FVs when their chrono is down or buy mobility items, position defensively, and move in to help allies after they get chronoed.
|
Yeah I mean Logo has a point it's not really an offlane thing. Void is not really that good of an offlaner, he can be completely shut down in the offlane by many heroes, but it's his ability to still be an early force with little farm due to Aghs Chrono. If they made Aghs simply reduce Chrono CD by 20s at each level I think would be fair.
|
what is the standard item progression on void? obvious opening is treads -> MoM -> maelstrom. what is the best dps increase after that between mjollnir, crit, deso, etc?
|
On August 19 2014 06:00 joolz wrote:
what is the standard item progression on void? obvious opening is treads -> MoM -> maelstrom. what is the best dps increase after that between mjollnir, crit, deso, etc?
Most people get Daedalus next.
That said it's not that simple. Sometimes Bane's enfeeble will ruin your day if you get too much aspd.
And dps does not correlate perfectly with average number of hits to kill a target which is a more important stat.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/848c1Nv.png)
Deso gives you the most but only if you turn off your lifesteal from mask and only against targets that haven't built some armor already and aren't getting them from auras or buffs.
Manta gives you the 2nd most theoretical dps but your illusions have to survive the entire time they're hitting and I'm ignoring all cast times and stuff.
Daedalus is high but offers no utility and has a randomness to it (bad). Crystalys has a great build path.
MKB gives you true strike and a stacking bash but has a terrible build path.
Mjolnir has some great effects but has a random chance, deals AoE magic damage (bkb, veil of discord, etc...), and has a great effect and decent build path. It also makes you weaker to damage reduction since you invest so much into attack speed and attacking too much might affect your chasing potential (I don't know) or might also give you more bashes. It also can cancel a lifesteal proc which is a big deal if you were gonna heal for like 200*.15=30 HP or with satanic, like 1.75*X HP.
Butterfly is obviously amazing against the ever popular 1 protects 4 pub comp.
All damage calculated in chrono.
http://devilesk.com/dota2/apps/hero-calculator?id=pm23gQeiHXzGLb5d
I'm wrong on the illusion damage. I thought illusions got aspd buffs from mask but they don't. Things make sense again. Manta damage sucks.
|
United States15275 Posts
On August 19 2014 06:00 joolz wrote:
what is the standard item progression on void? obvious opening is treads -> MoM -> maelstrom. what is the best dps increase after that between mjollnir, crit, deso, etc?
Maelstrom/MoM is the most common item build these days but it's not mandatory. Midas is a great pickup if you get 5-6 minutes of free farm. Battlefury is considered antiquated but still works for certain 4 protect 1 strategies. Diffusal/Manta works well against select mana-dependent cores. Midas/Aghs and MoM/Aghs remain viable but are rapidly becoming niche.
In my opinion, you should opt for Mjollnir in most games. The Mjollnir/MoM combination guarantees Time Lock stun, if not the damage, will always be relevant. Static Charge is fairly useful on Void or on a tanky offlaner. If the enemy has too much burst damage or BKB-piercing disables to use Berserk safely, you can dump MoM for something that grants more durability like Satanic. Crit after Maelstrom works if Void is snowballing and is unlikely to die in fights. I don't recommend it as a typical followup since Void does not need to focus on right-click DPS in all games.
There are, of course, other extensions like Manta and BKB which fulfill more utility functions. Sometimes you want BKB just to survive a midgame-oriented onslaught.
|
thanks both of you for the nice info. i really do love maelstrom first after treads+MOM but i'll have to consider some of this other stuff.
i guess something not shown in the spreadsheet is the farm boosting. maelstrom is a decent bump in farm speed (mainly in lane, not jungle) compared to the other stuff. 2 procs in lane and the wave is pretty much cleared.
manta is a really interesting idea. i dont think i've ever seen it on void. typically manta is both defensive and offensive on most carries but given void's reliance on chrono it seems almost purely offensive.
random side question: if puck fires orb and then phase shifts, then void chronos right where puck phase shifted, can puck teleport to the orb outside the chrono?
|
manta is legit if they have silence and you wanna skip bkb. the yasha is actually nice because he makes good use of the movespeed while in lane/jungle
|
Chonosphere is allegedly bugged right now so that enemies stay disabled for half a second after it ends. Can anyone confirm?
|
|
|
so with faceless void's nerf in 6.82, is he still played the same, item and skill wise?
im starting to learn void now since i have noticed a big drop-off of him being picked in my ranked solo queue games.
i usually go brown boots > pms > treads > MoM > maelstrom
i am thinking of going treads > pms > aquila for early game. not sure if aquila's helpful for void. i am also considering midas instead of aquila
|
On October 02 2014 18:27 CodeskyE wrote:
so with faceless void's nerf in 6.82, is he still played the same, item and skill wise?
im starting to learn void now since i have noticed a big drop-off of him being picked in my ranked solo queue games.
i usually go brown boots > pms > treads > MoM > maelstrom
i am thinking of going treads > pms > aquila for early game. not sure if aquila's helpful for void. i am also considering midas instead of aquila
I don't think the aquila is necessary, you really only need enough mana to escape at any given time and accumulate enough to TW>Chrono when you want to go for a kill. He doesn't really use a lot of mana, and the armor isn't that helpful. I'd rather get the Morbid Mask instead for that gold.
Midas is situational, as it is with any hero. If you're getting free farm (so can get it early, sub 6-7 minutes) and plan to use chrono to get a kill in your lane rather than move around the map early, go for it, otherwise I think you'd be better off to rush your Treads/MoM as fast as possible so you can start getting kills, especially if you're going for solo kills on a particular hero.
PMS is only useful in the offlane or in the safe lane when you are being contested. Don't get it all the time. Stout Shield is usually a safe pick up in all but the easiest lanes, but you don't always need to upgrade it.
He's played pretty much the same as before, IMO.
|
United States15275 Posts
On October 02 2014 18:27 CodeskyE wrote:
so with faceless void's nerf in 6.82, is he still played the same, item and skill wise?
im starting to learn void now since i have noticed a big drop-off of him being picked in my ranked solo queue games.
i usually go brown boots > pms > treads > MoM > maelstrom
i am thinking of going treads > pms > aquila for early game. not sure if aquila's helpful for void. i am also considering midas instead of aquila
He is still played the same way, but that is no longer the optimal way in the carry role. Passives still working in Chronosphere strain his item progression quite a bit, especially since he depended on evasion removal to skip MKB in the lategame. I would argue that if you go a MoM build in 6.82, you must dump it at some point before getting 6-slotted. The changes may not seem big but they were large nerfs to offlane Void specifically.
Boots -> PMS -> PTs -> MoM -> Maelstrom is fine. Skip the PMS if the lane is going well.
Aquila is an optional pickup if you want to maintain mana sustain while farming. It will give you just enough mana regen to constantly use Berserk off CD, and it's a cheap way to stack EHP in conjunction with Backtrack. But since it's primarily a laning item, you will usually skip it with good farm and rush for Morbid Mask with bad farm.
Midas isn't really a "substitute" for Aquila: it cost twice as much. You should only get Midas if you have free farm at the beginning and plan to extend the game late. Otherwise MoM will get you more farming gold and way better ganking potential.
|
I like the PMS (if needed0 --> Treads --> MoM --> Maelstrom progression. It feels really natural but my question has more to do with the post-core items. Mjoll should probably follow Maelstrom or should I go crit next? Any guidance on the follow-ons or is that simply game dependent?
|
United States15275 Posts
It is game-dependent. Your three common followups are Mjollnir, BKB, and Crystalys.
Maelstrom -> Mjollnir if you have enough outside damage to kill targets inside Chrono during team fights.
BKB if your right-click damage is necessary to kill targets inside Chrono during team fights.
Crystalys if you are snowballing and want to continue pressuring the map after enemy BKBs are purchased.
As an offlaner, you will usually not snowball hard enough to afford Crit at a reasonable time. If you are snowballing, then you will usually want Mjollnir or BKB first.
|
Excellent, thank you. Follow-up question: is Butterfly a good option after the crit/bkb path?
|
United States15275 Posts
In my opinion, Butterfly is one of the best lategame items on him: an ideal 6-slotted Void will always have Mjollnir and BFly. However, it is not the best 4th item all the time. You would prefer to finish your Mjollnir or Daedalus first in most cases. Depending on the situation, you might want to rush RFO/MKB/Manta after those too.
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
I tend to get baby crit after maelstrom, and then assess if i want to finish mjollnir or big crit first
|
On October 06 2014 07:40 ahswtini wrote:
I tend to get baby crit after maelstrom, and then assess if i want to finish mjollnir or big crit first
If I may, what drives that decision process for you?
|
On October 06 2014 07:40 CosmicSpiral wrote:
In my opinion, Butterfly is one of the best lategame items on him: an ideal 6-slotted Void will always have Mjollnir and BFly. However, it is not the best 4th item all the time. You would prefer to finish your Mjollnir or Daedalus first in most cases. Depending on the situation, you might want to rush RFO/MKB/Manta after those too.
Thanks for the advice. I noticed no Aghs though...
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 06 2014 08:06 BoZiffer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 07:40 ahswtini wrote:
I tend to get baby crit after maelstrom, and then assess if i want to finish mjollnir or big crit first If I may, what drives that decision process for you?
The maelstrom is good for farming, and the crystalys lets you keep up in damage.
|
Query: Why should one get a maelstrom after madness? I thought orbs don't stack...
|
"Chain Lightning is a Unique Attack Modifier that does not stack with other Unique Attack Modifiers when Chain Lightning occurs."
So you dont get lifesteal on the Chain Lightning attack, but you do get lifesteal on all the other attacks.
|
On October 11 2014 21:35 Sr18 wrote:
"Chain Lightning is a Unique Attack Modifier that does not stack with other Unique Attack Modifiers when Chain Lightning occurs."
So you dont get lifesteal on the Chain Lightning attack, but you do get lifesteal on all the other attacks.
Oh ok so that's why. Definitely picking it up next game :D
|
So brain sap seems to ignore spiked carapace.
Because dota? Or is there a consistent interaction I should be aware of for other spells?
|
United States15275 Posts
On October 12 2014 09:49 Belisarius wrote:
So brain sap seems to ignore spiked carapace.
Because dota? Or is there a consistent interaction I should be aware of for other spells?
Huh?
|
On October 12 2014 09:49 Belisarius wrote:
So brain sap seems to ignore spiked carapace.
Because dota? Or is there a consistent interaction I should be aware of for other spells?
not the proper thread but i think its because it's hp removal
|
On October 12 2014 10:19 icystorage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2014 09:49 Belisarius wrote:
So brain sap seems to ignore spiked carapace.
Because dota? Or is there a consistent interaction I should be aware of for other spells? not the proper thread but i think its because it's hp removal
hp removal doesn't exist anymroe
also brain sap never was hp removal afaik, just pure dmg
Anyways i'm going to need an explanation on what "ignoring Spike Carapace" means. AFAIK it works fine.
also wrong thred oops
|
Yeah definitely thought this was SQSA.
I'll have to test but I'm 90% sure I got killed by brain sap with it up. I don't think he damaged me beforehand. I'll check and try the proper thread.
EDIT: Alright I'm wrong, he auto'd me in the fight and I didn't notice. Carry on.
|
|
|
Do pubbers even offlane him that much?
He still seems to be safelane most the time, which I find is intersting. Even in 4/5k theres a lot of safelaners.
|
Feels too focused around chronosphere to me.
|
SoCal8910 Posts
On January 21 2015 06:26 ZieInverse wrote:
Do pubbers even offlane him that much?
He still seems to be safelane most the time, which I find is intersting. Even in 4/5k theres a lot of safelaners.
with the gold/xp changes, hes probably best in the offlane with a carry that benefits from chrono.
i personally have only seen safelane void.
|
United States15275 Posts
On January 21 2015 07:57 makmeatt wrote:
Feels too focused around chronosphere to me.
As opposed to before? The hero's design is based on his ulti, this has always been the case.
|
I cheated on clockwerk and crystalmaiden to play around with void but the manachanges hurt, even when i had a RoA. Ofcourse izuk but still, maybe aghs septer became viable again (solves all manaissues).
|
I don't see how anyone would have mana issues with the standard treads Aquila mom mael. I mean you can't blink around like am and farm but that's not how he works anyway.
As long as you have Aquila and treads and maybe a stick I don't see mana problems
|
SoCal8910 Posts
i think the mana issues surround refresher double ultimate
|
United States47024 Posts
On January 25 2015 06:00 BluemoonSC wrote:
i think the mana issues surround refresher double ultimate
This.
The mana cost change only affects higher ulti ranks. If you had mana issues at 11, then you would have had them at 7-10 as well, because the ult going up by 25 mana is far outweighed by your Int gain over those levels. But you shouldn't have mana issues at 7-10 anyway.
|
a stupid question but does pseudo bash still exist?
|
On January 25 2015 09:52 clickrush wrote:
a stupid question but does pseudo bash still exist?
Depends entirely on what you're trying to ask about, because "pseudo bash" isn't a thing.
Mini-Bash? Yes, MKB is still around. Sniper's Headshot isn't a mini-bash anymore, but this isn't the Sniper thread, so...
Pseudo-Random Distribution? Yes, Time Lock still uses it.
If you're talking about anything else, you're going to have to clarify.
|
I think he is talking about fake bashes from illusions. If I remember correctly, in WC3 Dota (possibly only in a past version), illusions could prox a fake bash that would do something like apply a debuff and show a stun indicator without actually stunning or dealing bonus damage. However, if a fake bash procced during the stun from a real bash, it would extend the stun as if it were real.
I may have this a bit wrong, but it almost certainly doesn't occur on Dota 2. If that's not what he's referring to then I have no idea.
|
United States47024 Posts
Illusions in DotA 2 simply lose the bash ability. They don't fake bash.
|
On January 25 2015 10:48 GentleDrill wrote:
I think he is talking about fake bashes from illusions. If I remember correctly, in WC3 Dota (possibly only in a past version), illusions could prox a fake bash that would do something like apply a debuff and show a stun indicator without actually stunning or dealing bonus damage. However, if a fake bash procced during the stun from a real bash, it would extend the stun as if it were real.
I may have this a bit wrong, but it almost certainly doesn't occur on Dota 2. If that's not what he's referring to then I have no idea.
doesn't this go both ways i remember? real bash extended by fake basshes, but convsselly the fake bash is also extended by the real bash w/o doing anything
|
United States47024 Posts
Correct. However, since most illusion sources you can use produce 2 illusions, getting a fake bash first was more likely.
|
so when pseudo bash doesnt exist anymore then i wonder why manta isnt used on void. i assume with diffusal manta agh he has enough mana to refresh chrono? 12s chrono sounds pretty good to me. prolly need a silencer for that to protect void from cc during at least the first chrono.
edit: this is assuming 1pos void. I think the more standard offlane void needs mom->mael to catch up with farm.
|
On January 26 2015 06:19 clickrush wrote:
so when pseudo bash doesnt exist anymore then i wonder why manta isnt used on void. i assume with diffusal manta agh he has enough mana to refresh chrono? 12s chrono sounds pretty good to me. prolly need a silencer for that to protect void from cc during at least the first chrono.
edit: this is assuming 1pos void. I think the more standard offlane void needs mom->mael to catch up with farm.
Because Manta adds almost no damage, and the attack speed/utility from it is bad compared to MoM and Maelstrom which are half the cost each (and still cheaper when you buy both).
And Diffusal/Manta/Aghs/Refresher for a 1pos...so basically no damage, and you're running your safe lane farmer purely as a Chrono setup?
|
United States47024 Posts
In general, you don't really get items that make for strong illusions. Your early damage items primarily carry stats that aren't illusion-usable, and you don't get a primary defensive HP source until you're replacing MoM with Satanic super-lategame, your illusions are just made of paper, especially since they don't get Backtrack.
It's kinda OK super lategame if you have something like Satanic+Crit+BKB+BFly and then have a Manta to high ground with, but even then, it's situational compared to a lot of other items (i.e. you have to really want Manta to siege and remove debuffs).
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
go 8th slot manta after necro3 on courier for those ultralate game sieges
|
On January 26 2015 07:48 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2015 06:19 clickrush wrote:
so when pseudo bash doesnt exist anymore then i wonder why manta isnt used on void. i assume with diffusal manta agh he has enough mana to refresh chrono? 12s chrono sounds pretty good to me. prolly need a silencer for that to protect void from cc during at least the first chrono.
edit: this is assuming 1pos void. I think the more standard offlane void needs mom->mael to catch up with farm. Because Manta adds almost no damage, and the attack speed/utility from it is bad compared to MoM and Maelstrom which are half the cost each (and still cheaper when you buy both). And Diffusal/Manta/Aghs/Refresher for a 1pos...so basically no damage, and you're running your safe lane farmer purely as a Chrono setup?
I've seen pros do it with success against 4 protects medusa line ups, outside of this rare case... Manta is also seen if they have too much stuff piercing BKB and the remaining stuff can be dispelled (ember + SM combo for exemple).
|
SoCal8910 Posts
im not really sure ive seen faceless and medusa in the same game let alone a manta void :/
|
On January 26 2015 20:32 ahswtini wrote:go 8th slot manta after necro3 on courier for those ultralate game sieges
If you allready have refresher you get double necro!
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On January 26 2015 07:48 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2015 06:19 clickrush wrote:
so when pseudo bash doesnt exist anymore then i wonder why manta isnt used on void. i assume with diffusal manta agh he has enough mana to refresh chrono? 12s chrono sounds pretty good to me. prolly need a silencer for that to protect void from cc during at least the first chrono.
edit: this is assuming 1pos void. I think the more standard offlane void needs mom->mael to catch up with farm. Because Manta adds almost no damage, and the attack speed/utility from it is bad compared to MoM and Maelstrom which are half the cost each (and still cheaper when you buy both). And Diffusal/Manta/Aghs/Refresher for a 1pos...so basically no damage, and you're running your safe lane farmer purely as a Chrono setup?
Actually, i once did the math, turns out if you get stats items + manta + diffusal manta does give you respectable dps in chrono, if they don't get insta popped. As a bonus: you can counter eblade with diffusal IIRC. The problem with the build is that it is kinda awkward to transition out of mom-mael when you can just transition into mom-mjol-bkb instead.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On January 26 2015 21:17 BluemoonSC wrote:
im not really sure ive seen faceless and medusa in the same game let alone a manta void :/
Actually, there was an ig game with ferrari on void with manta-diffusal against wraith king.
|
SoCal8910 Posts
I feel like that's the only time you'd ever want that combo on void or vs a medusa, but my point stands *I* never saw the game
is there a vod?
|
Can anyone explain why you would get a battlefury over a Mjolnir on this hero? I see some pros doing it when its not against like a meepo or something where the cleave would be good. From what I can tell the regen isn't enough to sustain leaping between camps (when I tested it) and the damage from mjolnir proc, plus more bashes should outweigh the crappy 60 damage, and the farming speed should be quite comparable. I don't see how its superior to MJ at all.
|
On April 11 2015 16:08 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Can anyone explain why you would get a battlefury over a Mjolnir on this hero? I see some pros doing it when its not against like a meepo or something where the cleave would be good. From what I can tell the regen isn't enough to sustain leaping between camps (when I tested it) and the damage from mjolnir proc, plus more bashes should outweigh the crappy 60 damage, and the farming speed should be quite comparable. I don't see how its superior to MJ at all.
Why do people think AOE is good vs Meepo? How does it help you at all to hurt multiple Meepos? You only need to kill one of them.
As for bfury void-- the advantage it has over mael/mjolnir is cleave crits if you chrono people when your targets are caught adjacent to each other. Additionally if you can safely farm a big damage item like bfury instead of being forced to buy cheap attack speed items, it makes you that much stronger once you do inevitably build attack speed. Thanks to time lock attack speed is good on him, but it's still best when he has a constant source of damage. Furthermore it still does farm faster than mael/mjolnir, especially against larger creep waves or stacks. Most importantly it actually lets him farm ancient stacks, which mjolnir does not, which accelerates him farm more than anything else in the game.
|
Single target focus is great against Meepo up until the point where he's tanky enough that he can survive through disables and then just run away the low-health Meepo. Then you've just got 4 other Meepos beating on you while you stupidly walk after the one with low health. If they're all low he can't do that.
Of course, I'm speaking in general terms here. I don't know exactly how the curve of Void's damage vs Meepo's tankiness works out and whether it means you can really expect to never be able to kill a Meepo within Chrono duration or not. Also there's bashes which might make it so he can never walk away a focused Meepo.
|
I was throwing that example out there. I have a friend who hates playing meepo against PA's who build battlefury, Which I imagine would extend to other heroes who can reasonably carry BF, such as void and AM.
With FV your huge damage comes from proccing timelock early on, MJ/MoM allow you to proc tons of timelock and lightning charges to do immense damage. Then when you build MKB/Daed after it synergyzes with your huge attack speed. I suppose you could get a butterfly later instead of one of those to work with BF, but I think the early game damage from MoM is larger than BF. It isn't a cheap AS item either, its the penultimate IAS item apart from a MoM and has a really nice buildup. I think you are approaching FV wrong. You should build IAS --> damage early since the Timelock Procs and MJ procs early on can be enormous damage, while later on you need the raw damage from MKB/Daed to level out with your super high attack speed. If you went something like MoM/BF/MKB/Daed then your attack speed would be pretty low comparatively. Swapping out the daed or MKB for a Butterfly is probably logical there I guess.
The farming speed is not THAT much slower than battlefury in my experience. Although I've only dabbled in BF a few times. You definitely can't farm stacks of ancients with a MJ, but in my pubs no one is ever stacking ancients for me, so if that's the primary reason then its a shitty reason imo.
|
United States15275 Posts
On April 11 2015 19:08 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I was throwing that example out there. I have a friend who hates playing meepo against PA's who build battlefury, Which I imagine would extend to other heroes who can reasonably carry BF, such as void and AM.
Crit scaling on PA is the reason why that works.
|
United States47024 Posts
BF farms significantly faster than Mjoll mostly because of Ancients. Mjoll makes relatively shitty contribution to doing Ancients, while BF can let you clear Ancients stacked to pretty much any amount.
On April 11 2015 19:08 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
The farming speed is not THAT much slower than battlefury in my experience. Although I've only dabbled in BF a few times. You definitely can't farm stacks of ancients with a MJ, but in my pubs no one is ever stacking ancients for me, so if that's the primary reason then its a shitty reason imo.
You don't need someone stacking for you to make Ancients worth it.
Like, people worry too much about large ancient stacks, when farming patterns that hit Ancients at like :52 after clearing lanes are worth it just for single stacks. A single stack of ancients gives like the same gold and XP as 4 jungle camps, and you clear it in a fraction of the time.
BF has the problem of course that you pretty much need to finish 2 more major items after that to be relevant, whereas Mjollnir can solo-kill with a MoM or teamfight with a BKB.
|
Thanks Yango! That clears that up for me quite a bit.
|
it doesn't support spamming time walk but being able to use 2.5x more than normal is not bad too
also bfury doesn't stop you from buying mom. i think skipping mom is a mistake in most games (at least in pubs) because it takes your solo kill potential from around 600~800 hp to around 1000~1200 hp (more if they don't have a disable or blink)
|
MoM is precisely what makes Bfury viable and in many cases superior to Mjolnir on FV.
Mjolnir
- Doesn't give you regen for laning/timewalk in jungle
- Doesn't give you cleave for Ancients/illu heroes
- Doesn't scale as well with lifesteal as bfury does
- Doesn't deal that much damage against BKB cores
- Doesn't deal with (semi)-mega creeps as fast
The main thing it offers as Yango pointed out is that it lets you come online earlier.
|
Aye people shouldn't look down on Battlefury at all, but I think it's more relevant in the average game when MoM Mjol builds are capable of easy solo-kills (like Yango stated) and doesn't exactly fall off as the game progresses if you can catch people without BKB up in Chrono because of the multiple magic damage sources procing.
Mjol and Timelock are both sorta underrated in the sense of magic damage rarely being mitigated (outside of immunity and the 25% on majority of heroes) compared to physical because of armour. Even if they have immunity up you still get your lovely DPS of right-click damage and IAS in general with all your equipment. The potential to do around 320+ damage post-mitigration in a single hit if both proc with physical damage (included 100 un-mitigrated to the sum for fun) is legit. That's a potential single hit in a Chrono and this will improve as the game goes on if you get more damage items or Aghs/Freshers for longer time in the dome.
On the same subject, any sources of cleave damage have those lovely similar armour ignoring properties to do sick damage in an AOE with the right items (crits are fun). It's just that MoM and Mjol is easier to achieve and be versatile from an earlier point even if MoM will promise some early game activity for battlefury.
Picking/randoming Void for Mom Mjol Aghs Fresher builds is p. good at dealing with stupid heroes like Slark in this disgusting patch. Aquila pretty good pick-up for flat mana regeneration and 18 damage.
|
On April 12 2015 18:34 Corr wrote:
MoM is precisely what makes Bfury viable and in many cases superior to Mjolnir on FV.
Mjolnir
- Doesn't give you regen for laning/timewalk in jungle
- Doesn't give you cleave for Ancients/illu heroes
- Doesn't scale as well with lifesteal as bfury does
- Doesn't deal that much damage against BKB cores
- Doesn't deal with (semi)-mega creeps as fast
The main thing it offers as Yango pointed out is that it lets you come online earlier.
I think the goal is by the time they have BKB, you have actual right click items like daed/MKB. The MJ/MoM give you huge damage from your timelock and lightning procs.Then you use that to kill anyone in the game and transition into the actual damage items afterwards. At which point the IAS from MJ should be better than the 65 damage from bfury.
to efficiently jungle I don't find you need to jump that frequently, and yeah Bfury would allow you to jump more, but you can just tread toggle with basi/aquila and you should be able to reasonably support it. As for lifesteal, yeah, you cant lifesteal the lightning procs but it doesn't really matter that much.
I guess if by come online, you mean get 6 slotted that can be true. But if you mean become ready to kick peoples heads in, then I think the MJ lets you do that faster.
As the above poster said. I think it guarantees kills early that Bfury wouldn't If you have like a skywrath or an invoker to guarantee kills then the bfury would probably be better long term.
|
Sometimes you can afford to go bf if your job early on is just to land chrono for your ally to combo. In that sense, you don't really need to be able to maximise your solo kill potential with mom yet, or be team fight ready.
|
So not *too* long ago void was super good, but he hasn't been good for a while, right? Is he still pretty unviable in the current meta?
|
He can still be good as a setter thats for sure.
But as a carry? I doubt with the meta aiming for aggression
void puts your team in a situation where they would have to fight 4v5
|
On August 31 2015 19:55 wxyLkz wrote:
He can still be good as a setter thats for sure.
But as a carry? I doubt with the meta aiming for aggression
void puts your team in a situation where they would have to fight 4v5
Disagreed. He is still one of the carries with a strong and wide power curve. He can do stuff starting from level 6-7 to ultra late game. I don't know why he is not picked at all, he is still strong despite the ulti CD nerf. IF AM is a viable option today, void can do better in teamfights even much earlier.
|
On September 01 2015 17:53 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 19:55 wxyLkz wrote:
He can still be good as a setter thats for sure.
But as a carry? I doubt with the meta aiming for aggression
void puts your team in a situation where they would have to fight 4v5 Disagreed. He is still one of the carries with a strong and wide power curve. He can do stuff starting from level 6-7 to ultra late game. I don't know why he is not picked at all, he is still strong despite the ulti CD nerf. IF AM is a viable option today, void can do better in teamfights even much earlier.
AM hits his timings way faster, which is very important in a meta that is all about ending early. Not to mention AM doesn't have any long CDs to fight around.
|
You need agha for this patch really and that's exactly the problem, he doesn't have the farming or fighting capability to afford that one slot in early-mid game dedicated for agha especially because you need treads+mom before everything else.
|
On September 01 2015 20:18 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 17:53 Laserist wrote:On August 31 2015 19:55 wxyLkz wrote:
He can still be good as a setter thats for sure.
But as a carry? I doubt with the meta aiming for aggression
void puts your team in a situation where they would have to fight 4v5 Disagreed. He is still one of the carries with a strong and wide power curve. He can do stuff starting from level 6-7 to ultra late game. I don't know why he is not picked at all, he is still strong despite the ulti CD nerf. IF AM is a viable option today, void can do better in teamfights even much earlier. AM hits his timings way faster, which is very important in a meta that is all about ending early. Not to mention AM doesn't have any long CDs to fight around.
pretty sure AM is only relevant with the amount of storm / lesh this patch. Void hits his timing way earlier, his chrono is basically a free kill or a good team fight. AM will have 0 contribution in teamfight except manavoid, and has to out farm by a huge margin to have any impact. Void can always land a sick chrono any time of the game, timewalk gives a slow for chase, and with MoM + bash you have solo kill potentials.
|
United States15275 Posts
On September 01 2015 17:53 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 19:55 wxyLkz wrote:
He can still be good as a setter thats for sure.
But as a carry? I doubt with the meta aiming for aggression
void puts your team in a situation where they would have to fight 4v5 Disagreed. He is still one of the carries with a strong and wide power curve. He can do stuff starting from level 6-7 to ultra late game. I don't know why he is not picked at all, he is still strong despite the ulti CD nerf. IF AM is a viable option today, void can do better in teamfights even much earlier.
Various nerfs to his skillset and items, plus the shift in midlane responsibilites. Void was a great safelane carry when the midlane was essentially a stalemate, which allowed him to farm Treads + MoM at a reasonable time. Solar Crest and Glimmer Cape screw him over. The necessity of MKB due to SC + Chrono nerfs made his already strained item progression untenable. Throw in some of the best defensive supports en vogue like WW, ES, etc. and he's boned.
Now MoM is fairly weak due to all the burst damage and BKB-piercing ultimates, BF is out of the question, and Midas + Aghs is trash (and always was). Currently his only stable item build is Aquila + PMS -> Maelstrom, which makes the hero predictable.
On September 01 2015 21:20 BurningSera wrote:
You need agha for this patch really and that's exactly the problem, he doesn't have the farming or fighting capability to afford that one slot in early-mid game dedicated for agha especially because you need treads+mom before everything else.
If he could afford Aghs, he would still be bottom-tier since Aghs-first builds imply a host of other things he has no access to.
|
On September 02 2015 04:36 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Now MoM is fairly weak due to all the burst damage and BKB-piercing ultimates, BF is out of the question, and Midas + Aghs is trash (and always was). Currently his only stable item build is Aquila + PMS -> Maelstrom, which makes the hero predictable.
The predictability point is moot. I mean, saying that AM is going to go treads --> Bfury as predictable... doesn't make him weak or anything. (PMS + Aquila + Mael ~~ 500 + 1k + 3k ~= 4.5k Battlefury.)
I think the two main problems are (echoing others), is that MoM is mandatory but gets to destroyed by everything, and the long cool down of his ult. An Aghs on void just isn't the same as an aghs on qop
Also, I think to a certain extent is the fact that silver edge makes void a piece of crap.
|
United States15275 Posts
On September 02 2015 13:05 Koromon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2015 04:36 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Now MoM is fairly weak due to all the burst damage and BKB-piercing ultimates, BF is out of the question, and Midas + Aghs is trash (and always was). Currently his only stable item build is Aquila + PMS -> Maelstrom, which makes the hero predictable. The predictability point is moot. I mean, saying that AM is going to go treads --> Bfury as predictable... doesn't make him weak or anything. (PMS + Aquila + Mael ~~ 500 + 1k + 3k ~= 4.5k Battlefury.) I think the two main problems are (echoing others), is that MoM is mandatory but gets to destroyed by everything, and the long cool down of his ult. An Aghs on void just isn't the same as an aghs on qop Also, I think to a certain extent is the fact that silver edge makes void a piece of crap.
Antimage is a timebomb that forces the enemy team to respond (both in the draft and the first 15-20 minutes of the game), and that dynamic has existed since he was introduced to Dota 2. The way people think about Void now is a relic of 6.80-6.81 and how team fighting worked back then. MoM->Maelstrom was never mandatory, it was just the best possible build for that era.
Silver Edge crushes him, but it's not common enough to make a huge impact. Glimmer Cape and Solar Crest are much worse as supports can easily afford them, and Void doesn't have a way to address either. Chronosphere is very underwhelming now after all the nerfs.
|
iirc glimmer won't work in chrono?
|
the invi does not but the added magic resistance will make void real sad
|
On September 01 2015 17:53 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2015 19:55 wxyLkz wrote:
He can still be good as a setter thats for sure.
But as a carry? I doubt with the meta aiming for aggression
void puts your team in a situation where they would have to fight 4v5 Disagreed. He is still one of the carries with a strong and wide power curve. He can do stuff starting from level 6-7 to ultra late game. I don't know why he is not picked at all, he is still strong despite the ulti CD nerf. IF AM is a viable option today, void can do better in teamfights even much earlier.
Yeah I do agree with that
the hero has a great potential
but the meta now is that carry should be fighting around 20-30mins.
which means void has not yet reach its full potential
but as a setter he does excel
|
and to add
AM's late game is other heroes mid game
so that means AM can fight earlier and join team fights than other carries
|
On September 01 2015 21:35 evanthebouncy! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 20:18 superstartran wrote:On September 01 2015 17:53 Laserist wrote:On August 31 2015 19:55 wxyLkz wrote:
He can still be good as a setter thats for sure.
But as a carry? I doubt with the meta aiming for aggression
void puts your team in a situation where they would have to fight 4v5 Disagreed. He is still one of the carries with a strong and wide power curve. He can do stuff starting from level 6-7 to ultra late game. I don't know why he is not picked at all, he is still strong despite the ulti CD nerf. IF AM is a viable option today, void can do better in teamfights even much earlier. AM hits his timings way faster, which is very important in a meta that is all about ending early. Not to mention AM doesn't have any long CDs to fight around. pretty sure AM is only relevant with the amount of storm / lesh this patch. Void hits his timing way earlier, his chrono is basically a free kill or a good team fight. AM will have 0 contribution in teamfight except manavoid, and has to out farm by a huge margin to have any impact. Void can always land a sick chrono any time of the game, timewalk gives a slow for chase, and with MoM + bash you have solo kill potentials.
That's not even remotely true. AM is viable because of his ability to hit his item timings far faster than any other HC in the game, so at 'midgame' he's already got 3/4 items when other carries have 2 at best. Void will have BKB/One Dmg item at best, and in order for him to be relevant in team fights he needs to have Aghs which gimps his damage big time for quite sometime on the power curve. AM the second he gets bfury ramps up big time on the power curve, and just gets better and better until ultra late which almost all games never go to.
|
On September 03 2015 12:31 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 21:35 evanthebouncy! wrote:On September 01 2015 20:18 superstartran wrote:On September 01 2015 17:53 Laserist wrote:On August 31 2015 19:55 wxyLkz wrote:
He can still be good as a setter thats for sure.
But as a carry? I doubt with the meta aiming for aggression
void puts your team in a situation where they would have to fight 4v5 Disagreed. He is still one of the carries with a strong and wide power curve. He can do stuff starting from level 6-7 to ultra late game. I don't know why he is not picked at all, he is still strong despite the ulti CD nerf. IF AM is a viable option today, void can do better in teamfights even much earlier. AM hits his timings way faster, which is very important in a meta that is all about ending early. Not to mention AM doesn't have any long CDs to fight around. pretty sure AM is only relevant with the amount of storm / lesh this patch. Void hits his timing way earlier, his chrono is basically a free kill or a good team fight. AM will have 0 contribution in teamfight except manavoid, and has to out farm by a huge margin to have any impact. Void can always land a sick chrono any time of the game, timewalk gives a slow for chase, and with MoM + bash you have solo kill potentials. That's not even remotely true. AM is viable because of his ability to hit his item timings far faster than any other HC in the game, so at 'midgame' he's already got 3/4 items when other carries have 2 at best. Void will have BKB/One Dmg item at best, and in order for him to be relevant in team fights he needs to have Aghs which gimps his damage big time for quite sometime on the power curve. AM the second he gets bfury ramps up big time on the power curve, and just gets better and better until ultra late which almost all games never go to.
it does happen,
when?
C9 vs SFZ the 3hr. game
where EE's AM looked like a retard for trying to push and melting instantly
note* EE's AM is already 8slotted
point is that yes AM gets fat earlier so his full potential is reached faster
but void can beat him if the team can withstand AM's late game(which is others mid game)
void is one of those carry who has a limitless power given what items you have.
the reason why he is balance is because he relies so much with his chrono and bash.
his bash needs ATKSPD which is gain from items
chrono's downside is long cooldown
I can say maybe void is the most powerful carry but thats if he reaches his full potential
which is 6slots? and maybe thats gonna take maybe less than an hour?
|
I think you are heavily underestimating how much AM's ability to fight a leshrac/storm has to do with his viability. AM is incredibly resilient to their kits and doesn't need a BKB, while void does. Having to get that reasonably fast bkb is the difference between him being viable against lesh/storm and him not being viable. Lina also melts him 75% of the time since he doesn't get an HP item pretty much ever.
I think void is still great in pubs, but in pro games I can see how his timings can be exploited while an AM's can't be.
|
On September 03 2015 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I think you are heavily underestimating how much AM's ability to fight a leshrac/storm has to do with his viability. AM is incredibly resilient to their kits and doesn't need a BKB, while void does. Having to get that reasonably fast bkb is the difference between him being viable against lesh/storm and him not being viable. Lina also melts him 75% of the time since he doesn't get an HP item pretty much ever.
I think void is still great in pubs, but in pro games I can see how his timings can be exploited while an AM's can't be.
but don't underestimate the power of BACKTRACK even laguna blade can be back tracked.
but you're certainly correct AM is a fast farmer hence he is effective earlier than void
but get a Void and AM build them with their 6items + their skills who do you think wins?
so it's safe to say
AM fast farming carry
Void ultra late carry or you can play him as a setter like a 3position hero
|
United States15275 Posts
Sigh, this feels like the discussion about "OD is a lane dominator" all over again. Your arguments are based on the hero's reputation, not how he actually functions in-game.
If we were talking about Dota 2 before the creep nerfs, the shift in popular midlane heroes, the multiple nerfs to Chrono, the removal of AS slow from Time Walk, the introduction of Solar Crest/Glimmer Cape/Silver Edge, the nerfs to BKB and the introduction of multiple pure damage ultimates, and the rework to assist gold, then he could be a very strong lategame carry. And that discussion would have to occur during 6.80 - 6.81, when he could get away with ridiculous item builds thanks to the available supporting cast.
Right now Void is a redundant hero. Everything he can do can be replicated by other heroes with less investment. At least AM's snowball capacity is unparalleled by anyone else, so he has a definite purpose.
|
On September 03 2015 17:11 wxyLkz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I think you are heavily underestimating how much AM's ability to fight a leshrac/storm has to do with his viability. AM is incredibly resilient to their kits and doesn't need a BKB, while void does. Having to get that reasonably fast bkb is the difference between him being viable against lesh/storm and him not being viable. Lina also melts him 75% of the time since he doesn't get an HP item pretty much ever.
I think void is still great in pubs, but in pro games I can see how his timings can be exploited while an AM's can't be. but don't underestimate the power of BACKTRACK even laguna blade can be back tracked. but you're certainly correct AM is a fast farmer hence he is effective earlier than void but get a Void and AM build them with their 6items + their skills who do you think wins? so it's safe to say AM fast farming carry Void ultra late carry or you can play him as a setter like a 3position hero
It's like you didn't read anything I said.
|
On September 04 2015 00:32 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Sigh, this feels like the discussion about "OD is a lane dominator" all over again. Your arguments are based on the hero's reputation, not how he actually functions in-game.
If we were talking about Dota 2 before the creep nerfs, the shift in popular midlane heroes, the multiple nerfs to Chrono, the removal of AS slow from Time Walk, the introduction of Solar Crest/Glimmer Cape/Silver Edge, the nerfs to BKB and the introduction of multiple pure damage ultimates, and the rework to assist gold, then he could be a very strong lategame carry. And that discussion would have to occur during 6.80 - 6.81, when he could get away with ridiculous item builds thanks to the available supporting cast.
Right now Void is a redundant hero. Everything he can do can be replicated by other heroes with less investment. At least AM's snowball capacity is unparalleled by anyone else, so he has a definite purpose.
I don't think void really cares about Solar Crest. Daedalas was a newb trap in about 90% of games anyway. MKB was almost universally the better choice. The pure damage is definitely a bigger issue for someone who sits at such a low HP pool. Some fights you pray for backtrack and it works out, other times not so much.
|
United States15275 Posts
On September 04 2015 01:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 00:32 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Sigh, this feels like the discussion about "OD is a lane dominator" all over again. Your arguments are based on the hero's reputation, not how he actually functions in-game.
If we were talking about Dota 2 before the creep nerfs, the shift in popular midlane heroes, the multiple nerfs to Chrono, the removal of AS slow from Time Walk, the introduction of Solar Crest/Glimmer Cape/Silver Edge, the nerfs to BKB and the introduction of multiple pure damage ultimates, and the rework to assist gold, then he could be a very strong lategame carry. And that discussion would have to occur during 6.80 - 6.81, when he could get away with ridiculous item builds thanks to the available supporting cast.
Right now Void is a redundant hero. Everything he can do can be replicated by other heroes with less investment. At least AM's snowball capacity is unparalleled by anyone else, so he has a definite purpose. I don't think void really cares about Solar Crest. Daedalas was a newb trap in about 90% of games anyway. MKB was almost universally the better choice. The pure damage is definitely a bigger issue for someone who sits at such a low HP pool. Some fights you pray for backtrack and it works out, other times not so much.
Chronosphere doesn't disable evasion anymore, so Solar Crest hampers his ability to do damage. The armor wrecks him too. He doesn't just depend on Time Lock to kill opponents.
MKB used to be redundant back when True Strike was unnecessary and BKB protected him against most blind effects. Daedalus was only a lure for players who rushed it after Mask of Madness. It's the reason why you used to pick Void against AM; BF Void farmed slower than BF AM but the former could itemize more efficiently thanks to his skillset. These days Void is in the bizarre position of being item-dependent and item-starved. He needs items to do anything worthwhile, but the old 6.81 item builds now create more needs that he can't compensate for.
|
SoCal8910 Posts
void's biggest issue right now is that without his ultimate, he's pretty much a walking liability. and if you can force him to ulti to escape, you're even more in business. and if he has to use bkb BEFORE using his ultimate, then forget about it.
currently the meta heroes are heroes that can be successful in a fight whenever one should break out and void can't hang outside of chrono and bkb.
|
Everything piercing BKB and not being able to repurchase 10 sec BKB hurt Void a lot, too.
|
SoCal8910 Posts
definitely. again, it boils down to the hero being dependent on cooldowns to excel at what he does
|
On September 04 2015 01:54 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 01:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On September 04 2015 00:32 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Sigh, this feels like the discussion about "OD is a lane dominator" all over again. Your arguments are based on the hero's reputation, not how he actually functions in-game.
If we were talking about Dota 2 before the creep nerfs, the shift in popular midlane heroes, the multiple nerfs to Chrono, the removal of AS slow from Time Walk, the introduction of Solar Crest/Glimmer Cape/Silver Edge, the nerfs to BKB and the introduction of multiple pure damage ultimates, and the rework to assist gold, then he could be a very strong lategame carry. And that discussion would have to occur during 6.80 - 6.81, when he could get away with ridiculous item builds thanks to the available supporting cast.
Right now Void is a redundant hero. Everything he can do can be replicated by other heroes with less investment. At least AM's snowball capacity is unparalleled by anyone else, so he has a definite purpose. I don't think void really cares about Solar Crest. Daedalas was a newb trap in about 90% of games anyway. MKB was almost universally the better choice. The pure damage is definitely a bigger issue for someone who sits at such a low HP pool. Some fights you pray for backtrack and it works out, other times not so much. Chronosphere doesn't disable evasion anymore, so Solar Crest hampers his ability to do damage. The armor wrecks him too. He doesn't just depend on Time Lock to kill opponents. MKB used to be redundant back when True Strike was unnecessary and BKB protected him against most blind effects. Daedalus was only a lure for players who rushed it after Mask of Madness. It's the reason why you used to pick Void against AM; BF Void farmed slower than BF AM but the former could itemize more efficiently thanks to his skillset. These days Void is in the bizarre position of being item-dependent and item-starved. He needs items to do anything worthwhile, but the old 6.81 item builds now create more needs that he can't compensate for.
Well the evasion change was made quite a while ago, 1.5 years at this point? I wasn't even considering that. Even then MKB wasn't bad because the damage is quite comparable to daedalas and the MKB lets you fight evasion outside your chrono in the past. Now it's just 100% better.
But this entire patch is the story of daedalas being a complete waste of money compared to MKB with all the cheap sources of evasion and no counters.
|
On September 04 2015 01:37 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 17:11 wxyLkz wrote:On September 03 2015 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I think you are heavily underestimating how much AM's ability to fight a leshrac/storm has to do with his viability. AM is incredibly resilient to their kits and doesn't need a BKB, while void does. Having to get that reasonably fast bkb is the difference between him being viable against lesh/storm and him not being viable. Lina also melts him 75% of the time since he doesn't get an HP item pretty much ever.
I think void is still great in pubs, but in pro games I can see how his timings can be exploited while an AM's can't be. but don't underestimate the power of BACKTRACK even laguna blade can be back tracked. but you're certainly correct AM is a fast farmer hence he is effective earlier than void but get a Void and AM build them with their 6items + their skills who do you think wins? so it's safe to say AM fast farming carry Void ultra late carry or you can play him as a setter like a 3position hero It's like you didn't read anything I said.
what makes you say that, when I actually agreed to some things you said, and just added some of my opinion
|
On September 04 2015 15:20 wxyLkz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 01:37 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On September 03 2015 17:11 wxyLkz wrote:On September 03 2015 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I think you are heavily underestimating how much AM's ability to fight a leshrac/storm has to do with his viability. AM is incredibly resilient to their kits and doesn't need a BKB, while void does. Having to get that reasonably fast bkb is the difference between him being viable against lesh/storm and him not being viable. Lina also melts him 75% of the time since he doesn't get an HP item pretty much ever.
I think void is still great in pubs, but in pro games I can see how his timings can be exploited while an AM's can't be. but don't underestimate the power of BACKTRACK even laguna blade can be back tracked. but you're certainly correct AM is a fast farmer hence he is effective earlier than void but get a Void and AM build them with their 6items + their skills who do you think wins? so it's safe to say AM fast farming carry Void ultra late carry or you can play him as a setter like a 3position hero It's like you didn't read anything I said. what makes you say that, when I actually agreed to some things you said, and just added some of my opinion
Who wins 6 item vs 6 item is completely irrelevant to the conversation. If you read my initiate comment I said how lina melts void 75% of the time because of backtrack, IE: laguna misses 25% of the time. Lina's euls forces you to get a bkb or your ult is wasted.
The reason AM is good currently is because his kit is superior for dealing with high magic damage int heroes like leshrac and storm. They give him huge ults while not doing enough damage to kill him when he gets his core items.
Void is better for counter initiating becuase the ability to hit a good chrono is almost impossible unless the enemy team is incompetent and you have perfect vision. Counter initiation is much better because people group more. I don't think you ideally want a situation where your void is jumping in first.
|
but if you read the title of the thread this is for void?
that's why we are discussing pros and cons for void
and comparison with is accepted
I know AM is better against void in many ways
what I'm pointing that you can't understand is that
VOID's mid game is AM's late game hence AM is ahead always
since AM is ahead he is better that time against void
but when they both get 6items they're even with farm so no one is ahead
and when that time comes VOID is better than most carries
about void jumping 1st yes you can,
given atleast you catch 3 important heroes and you have bkb
as a setter 3 heroes caught in chrono I think thats enough
as long as you're nukers and glass cannons don't get caught as well
if chrono used as counter initiation theres a strong chance that the enemy is already in
if you chrono you might include your team.
|
idk AM and void are pretty different heroes. You pick them for different reasons, and it just so happens that a fair number of AM's pros are relevant right now while void is buried in cons.
Current meta features which really hurt Void:
1. solar crest/glimmer/wyvern et al.
2. frequent, scrappy fights
3. early pushes
4. massive magic damage
5. every second spell piercing BKB
2 and 3 mean he has to fight without chrono half the time, while 1,4 and 5 make it very difficult for him to do his thing even when chrono is up. He can't farm particularly well under pressure, can't rely on his initiation/teamfight with so much damage and disruption around, and even has issues when he's big because he's forced to spend a lot of slots counter-countering support stuff. He's just not in a good place.
AM, on the other hand, is better than most at switching targets to deal with solar etc. He's fine with magic damage, and his ult is really good against all the big magic dps heroes. He also splitpushes much more safely than void, meaning he's pretty good at getting big in the face of push cheese. And even with all that going for him, his results have been pretty mixed, so I'm still not sure why he's become the poster boy for comparison.
|
United States15275 Posts
On September 04 2015 12:51 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well the evasion change was made quite a while ago, 1.5 years at this point? I wasn't even considering that. Even then MKB wasn't bad because the damage is quite comparable to daedalas and the MKB lets you fight evasion outside your chrono in the past. Now it's just 100% better.
But this entire patch is the story of daedalas being a complete waste of money compared to MKB with all the cheap sources of evasion and no counters.
Less than a year ago.
MKB damage is never comparable to Daedalus as long as Daedalus is a luxury item. The crit scaling will beat bash every single time.
The need for MKB blows because this hero already had enough problems itemizing when Chronosphere was good. His skillset was made for one purpose, so he needed to account for everything else he lacked; his disjointed skillset makes it almost impossible to design effective hybrid builds or choose items that serve multiple functions. Now he can't even kill enemies reliably in Chrono. He's a waste of a pick/ban slot at this point.
|
On September 04 2015 23:32 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 12:51 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well the evasion change was made quite a while ago, 1.5 years at this point? I wasn't even considering that. Even then MKB wasn't bad because the damage is quite comparable to daedalas and the MKB lets you fight evasion outside your chrono in the past. Now it's just 100% better.
But this entire patch is the story of daedalas being a complete waste of money compared to MKB with all the cheap sources of evasion and no counters. Less than a year ago. MKB damage is never comparable to Daedalus as long as Daedalus is a luxury item. The crit scaling will beat bash every single time. The need for MKB blows because this hero already had enough problems itemizing when Chronosphere was good. His skillset was made for one purpose, so he needed to account for everything else he lacked; his disjointed skillset makes it almost impossible to design effective hybrid builds or choose items that serve multiple functions. Now he can't even kill enemies reliably in Chrono. He's a waste of a pick/ban slot at this point.
I should clarify. In a 6 slot scenario and your 6th item being crit or MKB, then crit is significantly better. However as a first major damage item, IE: After MoM/mjollnir or just after MoM, the damage between the two are quite similar.
|
United States2186 Posts
Daedalus is such a garbo item right now unless you're massively far ahead. Item always was pretty meh in most situations but now its just terrible 90% of the time with solar crest so ubiquitous and bfly still quite good.
Main problem really is that void gets pressured way too easily and its way too difficult to get the needed rhythm where he can freefarm and control the map by getting solo kills from fog with chrono and making the entire enemy team afraid whenever he's off the map.
|
Given his new changes and how it looks like Le Ice Lizard wants Void in the offlane, and I also prefer the offlane, how would we go about building him? The loss of backtrack makes him decidedly less tanky so butterfly is mandatory now I would presume?
|
What makes you think icefrog wants him to be an offlaner?
If he wants to do anything without chrono up you'd preferably want decent levels in time walk, but you also still want high levels of time lock. I actually really like the new timewalk, but 2 seconds is kind of short compared to most ccs in the game.
On the other hand, time dilation feels incredibly underwhelming in early levels. I can't think of any situation where you'd max it before time walk or time lock though.
|
United States47024 Posts
Because Void's 6-item lategame is massively worse than it used to be when that was basically the only reason to pick Void as a carry at all.
Instead, he's pushed with better consistent survivability early-midgame and better non-Chrono fight contribution without being insanely farmed.
|
Other than his survivability what does he offer without Chrono?
You can conditionally absorb damage with time walk if they focus you, or you get a good time dilation off which would have been like 'landing' a time walk pre6.86.
I assume the whole idea is a) try to get team to focus you, b) after they use spells on you, turn around and Q, c) time dilation and try to get your team to follow up
That entirely revolves around you surviving the skills they use on you though
I guess he would want to build tanky early then? Maybe treads, drum?
|
you got it backwards.
You would blink in chrono first, and get a potential pick off
Or if no chrono just run in and try to hit shit
You would then use time dilation, maybe even while inside the chrono
Enemy would try to then burst you because you're out of position, but they cannot chain combos or stuns, you time-walk away the damage
I believe the new build would be focused on increasing health and fighting potential. Blink/Armlet/Treads/Wand is my take. You would use toggle along with time walk to reset damage. Then build BKB
wait they can still chain combo and stun you.
this hero makes no sense then.
|
The problem with that is you don't have a reliable initiation if you want to use timewalk to offset damage.
Looking at the cooldown:
Timewalk:
24/18/12/6
Time Dilation:
34/28/22/16
Basically they are both kind of blow.
If you use timewalk to initiate you might just be dead.
Iono still seems kind of a shit hiro to use
|
^ not sure what you want to say with the cds. I think both cds are pretty strong, considering that time dilation has 9 sec duration and timewalk easily beats doppelganger in terms of cd and backtracks 2 seconds every 6.
Tbh I think timewalk is really good now, because it leaves the opponent in the situation to either try to burst and end up loosing a lot of damage, or to ignore a hero with that kind of initiation power.
I think the main problem is that he deals no damage and lacks flash farm. He definitely needs a force or blink dagger and lots of damage from other sources.
I think something like void+phoenix might become a thing, with either of the two as offlaner and the other one as support.
|
I'm thinking void might be super dangerous against trilane/dual lane supports that don't have long stun durations. Walk up to them -> timewalk and time dilation right after enemies use spells on you -> hit supports til they die.
|
the problem with CD is how can he be relevant early game? Most play maker hero have a useful combo at level 6 so they can leave the offlane and do something useful.
Say you lane a void, you hit lvl 6, what does your skill set look like? His skillset looks a lot like ember, where it's really good on high level but really shit on low level. So ideally you would max out 1 skill first and leave the other at 1 point. For ember the choice is simple. Flameguard is fucking OP at lower level so you max that first.
But what do you even max first as a void?
Max timewalk first, in early game you have no hp they'll burst you down, plus you deal no damage
Max time dilation first, okay you have a 20 second cd on timewalk, good luck running up to ppl and (maybe) silence them, also you deal no damage
Max stun first, before your time-walk has 700 range lvl1, AND it slows, now you have a super short range timewalk and need to cast the time dilation for a possbility of slow. Pray to rnjesus? Now you're super squish and without timewalk to offset.
It just seems like he's a squish hero that can't do anything beside a huge cd chrono, which he can't really initiate because of a 550 range leap. He wants other ppl to hit him yet he has no hp, he deals no damage and need to run at people to maybe slow them if they cast a spell.
Compare that to void before patch. You can just offlane, buy pms or vanguard even, max out back-track and hurp durp in the lane for no cost. lvl1 time walk wonder point for chrono ganks and farm out some jungles with mask of madness into a semi=legit carry anyways.
Maybe someone would figure out how to use him. But it just seems he's very awkward hero, he wants people to dump spells on him yet he's no bristleback.
edit: maybe mid or safelane. I don't know. I think he'll be super fun to play still with armlet etc but doesn't seem very viable. I don't really know how strong 10% movement speed slow actually is.
|
United States15275 Posts
What a damn weird hero he's become.
I feel he's a bad choice as an offlaner. He needs too many items to do what others can do with 1-2. Not to mention he lacks the combination potential that's a staple of even the greedier offlaners.
On December 18 2015 05:37 Blackfeather wrote:
I think the main problem is that he deals no damage and lacks flash farm. He definitely needs a force or blink dagger and lots of damage from other sources.
He does plenty of damage at level 7 if you inflate his AS with MoM. But Time Lock damage hits a wall after a certain point and his AGI gain is mediocre. Not to mention supports can afford defensive items in this patch, so you can't stick on MoM if you want to kill them going into the lategame.
If you go Blink Dagger you might as well farm Aghs. You won't be doing any relevant damage in a team fight.
On December 18 2015 06:01 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Compare that to void before patch. You can just offlane, buy pms or vanguard even, max out back-track and hurp durp in the lane for no cost. lvl1 time walk wonder point for chrono ganks and farm out some jungles with mask of madness into a semi=legit carry anyways.
Maybe someone would figure out how to use him. But it just seems he's very awkward hero.
Well, pre-patch Void wouldn't work now for a number of reasons anyway.
On December 18 2015 06:01 evanthebouncy! wrote:
edit: maybe mid or safelane. I don't know. I think he'll be super fun to play still with armlet etc but doesn't seem very viable. I don't really know how strong 10% movement speed slow actually is.
It's shit. Better with Oov, but still bad.
|
United States47024 Posts
TBH the biggest problem with offlane is that he's actually a WORSE ganker from offlane for pressuring mid than he was before because Time Walk's range is shit now and Time Dilation does nothing if the enemy has no spells on CD.
On December 18 2015 06:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:
It's shit. Better with Oov, but still bad.
It's 10% per spell CD locked. Which means it's only going to kick in strong later when you can get like 30%+ slows for locking people out of a full rotation.
|
United States15275 Posts
On December 18 2015 06:19 TheYango wrote:TBH the biggest problem with offlane is that he's actually a WORSE ganker from offlane for pressuring mid than he was before because Time Walk's range is shit now and Time Dilation does nothing if the enemy has no spells on CD. Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 06:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:
It's shit. Better with Oov, but still bad. It's 10% per spell CD locked. Which means it's only going to kick in strong later when you can get like 30%+ slows for locking people out of a full rotation.
Don't think he even qualifies as a ganker anymore rofl.
The cumulative effect is fine if you can time it correctly without dying. Since it's both MS and AS slow, I imagine you'd want to stack the debuff with another one while having enough survivability to force a retreat. Skadi might work (orb + stats) if one can find a decent enough farming build.
There's also the problem of mana pool. If this new version wants to be relevant in a fight, he needs to expend a lot more mana than he did before.
|
It's weird because I can think of a lot of uses for FV's general kit & time dilation, but with the reduced jump range I can't think of how those situations would actually work out.
Like Time Dilation would be great to lock down blinking targets... except you have no way to chase them when they blink without going like blink + force (lol) and it only helps delay the 2nd blink. And for Ember & Storm their fake blinks don't have cool downs to exploit anyways.
It almost seems like instead of being a slow you'd want time dilation to give Faceless Void increase AS/MS so he would be a good counter initiator. But even then that only partially works because BKB would block the time dilation.
Still maybe the hero would have some use against QoP by being able to rewind/dodge the ult damage then lock her out of escaping without having to devout the ulty.
|
Waga played him with RoA, Diffusal, manta on stream today. Looked interesting but he had a nice early start with a super solid support.
|
United States15275 Posts
Diffusal/Manta is an old build.
|
On December 18 2015 10:32 BoZiffer wrote:
Waga played him with RoA, Diffusal, manta on stream today. Looked interesting but he had a nice early start with a super solid support.
safelane?
i mean this guy is like... if u run him as carry he doesn't do enough damage (glimmer cape owns him) and if you run him offlane he has crap gank.
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
doesnt chrono reveal stealth??
|
biggest sad feeling about new void is the crappy timewalk range...feels so off, the thought of even having to buy a blink feels more terrible
|
Time walk seems crappy, but if they lack lock down that is longer than 2 seconds, void can shrug off almost any damage. I've seen a couple pro streamers just dance a fight taking almost no damage and being able lane forever with minor health and mana regen.
I want to try some tanky builds for early team fighting. I think he is to item hungry to be a carry sadly, and I don't know where this new Time Dilation fits in.
|
United States15275 Posts
On December 18 2015 20:47 ahswtini wrote:
doesnt chrono reveal stealth??
Yes, but the magic resistance makes Time Lock useless.
On December 19 2015 00:35 Plansix wrote:
Time walk seems crappy, but if they lack lock down that is longer than 2 seconds, void can shrug off almost any damage. I've seen a couple pro streamers just dance a fight taking almost no damage and being able lane forever with minor health and mana regen.
I want to try some tanky builds for early team fighting. I think he is to item hungry to be a carry sadly, and I don't know where this new Time Dilation fits in.
I've had decent success with Mjolnir -> Skadi/Manta. For him to be useful as a carry, I think non-BKB item builds are necessary.
Hero would be decent if they returned his MS/AS slow. No idea why Icefrog thought it was so important to remove those traits.
|
On December 19 2015 04:59 CosmicSpiral wrote:Yes, but the magic resistance makes Time Lock useless. Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 00:35 Plansix wrote:
Time walk seems crappy, but if they lack lock down that is longer than 2 seconds, void can shrug off almost any damage. I've seen a couple pro streamers just dance a fight taking almost no damage and being able lane forever with minor health and mana regen.
I want to try some tanky builds for early team fighting. I think he is to item hungry to be a carry sadly, and I don't know where this new Time Dilation fits in. I've had decent success with Mjolnir -> Skadi/Manta. For him to be useful as a carry, I think non-BKB item builds are necessary. Hero would be decent if they returned his MS/AS slow. No idea why Icefrog thought it was so important to remove those traits.
I'd rather have the full range on time walk back rather than the MS/AS slow
|
This is such a weird hero now.
As a 1pos he needs to itemise damage, mobility and bulk. I feel like the intention was to create a fighting core by adding some AoE CC, but compared to gyro etc. chrono's cd is just way too long and his combat buildup doesn't seem smooth.
I've had a bit of success rushing midas from safelane with proper support - levels seem really important for him - or just going Treads/RoA/mael etc. Every game the lane has been contested at all, I've been useless. I feel like I need at least 2k more than the other carry to compete. idk.
MoM seems especially awkward. More than ever he wants that powerspike to be able to kill things in chrono, but living through lockdown to timewalk it off is almost impossible with mask on.
As an offlaner he's okay, and timewalk does make him very hard to kill, but it doesn't work against sustained harass and he's quite easy to zone. Even if he gets a free 6 he still only contributes once every 2 minutes, and hits like a wet noodle unless his lane was so easy he could max timelock first.
Blink rush seems okay out of offlane and MoM is more forgivable since if I get blown up after chrono I'm at least not the main carry... but mostly I've just ended up wishing I'd picked magnus or something.
If I were to describe him in a single word, that word would be "awkward".
|
i haven't played him in a while but I'm thinking armlet / diffusal is the way to go
honestly neither of those items are very good on him either. why? armlet and timewalk don't really synergize any better than with other heroes, and oracle totally messes him up if he tries. diffusal is not necessarily a cheap item for such a squishy hero, and diffusal manta on this hero is a little awkward for all this networth tied up at 20-30m.
is the hero scary at any point in time? not necessarily since it hasn't built up a reputation yet.
previously his timing of mask of madness and level 6/7 roam to mid, safelane, or even just to kill off the safe/offlane was barely strong enough (sometimes not).
I mean battlefury farming? not good, you would have won with nearly any other bfury carry in the same position if not more easily so. ie, a greedy phantom assassin could fill in the same farming role and do more with less.
although he would farm relatively closer to AM's pace just due to timewalk.
midas? perhaps. but you are still getting kited since your output is so low without major damage dealing items.
maybe a fast desolator would fix that, I don't know.
in some situations a void just shreks a combination and forces the team out into a disarranged mess, much like a highground darkseer, tidehunter, or earthshaker does.
I would think he's just as good as PL (minus the burn, slow in some instances, and illusions) in situations where a skullbasher-> abyssal is required.
I'm pretty sure you can swap out of his ulti, but not use forcestaff.
I remember doing some testing on void to see the highest output a 6-slotted void could have. basically, the only thing he had going for him was the timelock proc and of course the high CD chronosphere.
it's around 2 attacks per second, but realistically more like 5 or 6 attacks total during a regular game per midgame chrono. if I were hashing out void games, I'd keep that in mind and itemize for what deals the most midgame without sacrificing farm and movement. I think the build should end at 4/5 slots realistically unless you are the main core on the team.
I think with the backtrack change, he is much more squishy for a manfight when cds are down. 6 seconds is an eternity, MoM is too risky but can work in specific situations with timewalk up, lifesteal for a small HP pool is not efficient.
so honestly I think the strength might be midgame around lv 11/12 with 2 or 3 timewalks, one time dilation, and a level 1 ulti with max timelock.
either way, I look forward to universe trying it out, because this is his jam.
|
|
|
United States15275 Posts
On December 25 2015 05:46 Coolsnow7 wrote:
I think IF has in mind people playing him like Slardar. All the claims that he's been nerfed assume that he's meant to be played exactly as he was before. It took a very long time before people realized that while Slardar is a mediocre safelane farmer, he's a great offlaner.
Well, Slardar is a good offlaner in this meta. Void isn't by virtue of several different things. I'm not sure the Frosty Toad wanted that as the outcome.
Also, Slardar only became a good offlane once the offlane became significantly easier to contend. I know several people here and on other forums have issues with that.
|
Void worked as an offlaner in earlier patches due to the meta. So it may still work but require different skill build and/or items.
Chrono cooldown as the biggest reason he fell off iirc as fight became more and more common, it also made alot of the heroes combo used fell off. Some are coming back into the meta ie Invoker
Is he good enough to fill that role with current items and skills, not sure but siding towards no more than yes
|
I think that Void and Slardar aren't that comparable. Imo Slardars skills have much more synergy compared to FV. Crush and Bash are both physical dmg so they fit perfect to his ult and enable him to buy initiation items like blink and force staff cause he isn't lacking dmg early on. Void on the other hand isn't dealing that much dmg early on (his bash deals significantly less dmg compared to Slardar; 70 to 120) and he is much more item dependent. Chrono is a great ulti in theory but you need the right heros to support that and he has to get an initiation item due to the new timewalk range. Time dilation is also good in theory but also not reliable enough i think couse you have to wait until the enemy heroes blew their spells. The damage avoidance on Timewalk is nice, but as already pointed out, not against stun heavy lineups and so again not very reliable in some cases.
Dunno what icefrog intentions are but i don't understand this hero at all :D
|
On December 26 2015 02:09 MXVI wrote:
I think that Void and Slardar aren't that comparable. Imo Slardars skills have much more synergy compared to FV. Crush and Bash are both physical dmg so they fit perfect to his ult and enable him to buy initiation items like blink and force staff cause he isn't lacking dmg early on. Void on the other hand isn't dealing that much dmg early on (his bash deals significantly less dmg compared to Slardar; 70 to 120) and he is much more item dependent. Chrono is a great ulti in theory but you need the right heros to support that and he has to get an initiation item due to the new timewalk range. Time dilation is also good in theory but also not reliable enough i think couse you have to wait until the enemy heroes blew their spells. The damage avoidance on Timewalk is nice, but as already pointed out, not against stun heavy lineups and so again not very reliable in some cases.
Dunno what icefrog intentions are but i don't understand this hero at all :D
I think the synergy thing is mostly important on a pos 1 slardar, not on a 3. Imo slardar's great strength comes from the fact that he gifts his cores a stronger deso orb and is really disruptive with his low cd aoe stun. Slardar is way worse at dealing damage than f.e. tusk or centaur at least until he has 2-3 damage items (so pretty much never on a position 3 slardar).
Vici just played an interesting lineup around his chrono in the dota 2 radiant & dire cup vs LGD. Their lineup used chrono as a blocking zone after pudge or venge hooked or swapped someone out.
|
Chrono just needs very very specific heroes with it. You needs your lich, WD, pheonix or something similar to combo with it. Or at the very least some kind of ranged nuker like Zeus with it. If you play offlane void with some random AM safelane and rubick/bh supports or something, what exactly are those 3 heroes gonna do to the enemies you lock in chrono? And probably 80% of all heroes or something will have trouble using Chrono to their advantage. This makes him very hard to play iin offlane in pubs because people will pick whatever. From the offlane you wont be dealing the damage yourself, but if your team mates dont synergize with you, no one will be dealing any damage.
|
United States15275 Posts
On December 26 2015 13:32 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 02:09 MXVI wrote:
I think that Void and Slardar aren't that comparable. Imo Slardars skills have much more synergy compared to FV. Crush and Bash are both physical dmg so they fit perfect to his ult and enable him to buy initiation items like blink and force staff cause he isn't lacking dmg early on. Void on the other hand isn't dealing that much dmg early on (his bash deals significantly less dmg compared to Slardar; 70 to 120) and he is much more item dependent. Chrono is a great ulti in theory but you need the right heros to support that and he has to get an initiation item due to the new timewalk range. Time dilation is also good in theory but also not reliable enough i think couse you have to wait until the enemy heroes blew their spells. The damage avoidance on Timewalk is nice, but as already pointed out, not against stun heavy lineups and so again not very reliable in some cases.
Dunno what icefrog intentions are but i don't understand this hero at all :D
I think the synergy thing is mostly important on a pos 1 slardar, not on a 3. Imo slardar's great strength comes from the fact that he gifts his cores a stronger deso orb and is really disruptive with his low cd aoe stun. Slardar is way worse at dealing damage than f.e. tusk or centaur at least until he has 2-3 damage items (so pretty much never on a position 3 slardar). Vici just played an interesting lineup around his chrono in the dota 2 radiant & dire cup vs LGD. Their lineup used chrono as a blocking zone after pudge or venge hooked or swapped someone out.
Nah. One of the unheralded strengths of offlane Slardar is he can kill the majority of supports with his spells alone. Crush -> Amplify -> Bash will take off 60-75% of a support's health, and he can get the rest by running him down with Sprint. Once he gets Blink he can force most supports to avoid farming the lanes.
Vici Gaming has won both games with offlane Void , but I'm not convinced icex3 has had any meaningful impact in those games.
|
So there has been no discussion of this hero since 6.86c was released and I think the buffs are significant:
Time Walk cast range increased from 550 to 625
Faceless Void strength gain increased from 1.6 to 1.8
Time Dilation duration increased from 5.5/7/8.5/10 to 6/8/10/12
Time Dilation cooldown increased from 34/28/22/16 to 36/30/24/18
This makes Time Dilation scale considerably better and Time Walk actually covers an acceptable distance. The Str growth barely helps, but doesn't hurt. Does all this push Void firmly into an offlaner? Or is he a still a carry? What items and skill build are people using? I am honestly just curious because I haven't played Dota 2 in almost two weeks and I'm curious what developments have been made surrounding his build/playstyle.
|
i have super questionable theorycrafts on this guy
but i think if you go offlane with an appropriate team comp 440 might be the build, meaning you're 100% bait and utility with 0% damage... in this case you'd probably build tranqs blink aghs or something
if you go safelane or you're an offlane who needs to do damage in chrono, i think the skill build is still something like 414 (situational max q or e first)... and here comes the super questionable tuna theorycraft... i think the item build is something like pms aquila treads mom (yasha) necro3 diffusal manta refresher...
|
All the cool kids are doing with void is aqulia --> vanguard --> radiance ---> manta with him.
|
United States15275 Posts
I don't know Spirit. That build doesn't seem to know what it wants. The Diffusal/Manta is too late to hit a pre-BKB timing, and the Necro 3 is too delayed to work within a push strategy.
I find Vanguard/Radiance/Manta such a gimmicky build. It's in that weird spot where it works so well in pubs because it's specifically designed to exploit that environment. It's not a great build for the hero in the sense that it addresses all his skills.
|
winter has been doing the blink aghs build in the SEA major qual
could be good but your whole usefulness really depends on a good chrono and your team's ability to take advantage of it
I have mixed feeling about it, but on pubs it looks pretty weak
|
Max Q, W then E.
I played around with this hero and I think Kreb is right where he's only good with a specific line-up. I think his Time Walk is great, wish the range was a bit more and Time Dilation is incredible.
But his ultimate is pretty awkward now that you can't solokill, I am actually unsure how to use it now if my team aren't ranged heroes or I don't place better positioned Ults.
|
United States47024 Posts
On January 14 2016 17:33 Torte de Lini wrote:
But his ultimate is pretty awkward now that you can't solokill, I am actually unsure how to use it now if my team aren't ranged heroes or I don't place better positioned Ults.
That was still true when offlane Void was popular around TI4 anyway (before the various nerfs). The value in offlane Void has always been his ulti, and the hero wasn't that good in the hands of an inexperienced player (notice even in that era the teams like EG that had a proficient Void player valued the hero FAR more highly than teams who didn't). Even when he was one of the meta picks for offlane, he had the potential to be insanely useless if the player wasn't particularly good at using Chrono.
There was never an expectation that you would solo kill with his ulti, and even if you could solo kill a support with it, removing the threat of a Chrono teamfight was worth less than the gain from a support solo kill a lot of the time.
|
ive played him in party and on a smurf with his new changes.
idk he still feels strong as a carry but cant rly know for sure unless i spam him in 7k
went treads/aquila/hotd
farm a lot and use hotd correctly
get sny
diassemble into manta
get silver edge
skadi/butterfly/mkb w.e u need
finish satanic
moonshard?
also portrait click timewalks if ure manfighting an enemy and want to heal
so u timewalk in ur place instead of using turn rate or jumping small distances which can waste time
1-1-4 into 4-1-4 build
time dilation wrecks heroes like weaver way too hard
just use it as soon as u see him out of shuchuki and its over for him
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
ive been trying the above build, definitely miss the high dmg output with traditional mjollnir daedalus build but i guess these changes forced him away from the glass cannon build. i personally found it harder to play from behind as epic chronos are harder to land, and even if u get them, u lack dmg against a more farmed enemy team.
|
On January 14 2016 19:24 ChunderBoy wrote:
also portrait click timewalks if ure manfighting an enemy and want to heal
so u timewalk in ur place instead of using turn rate or jumping small distances which can waste time
Is this strategy better than time walking across them to take advantage of Faceless Void's faster turn rate?
|
On January 15 2016 00:35 Buckyman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 19:24 ChunderBoy wrote:
also portrait click timewalks if ure manfighting an enemy and want to heal
so u timewalk in ur place instead of using turn rate or jumping small distances which can waste time
Is this strategy better than time walking across them to take advantage of Faceless Void's faster turn rate?
depends on whether ur priority is to kill them or to survive rly close fights
|
On January 14 2016 19:17 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 17:33 Torte de Lini wrote:
But his ultimate is pretty awkward now that you can't solokill, I am actually unsure how to use it now if my team aren't ranged heroes or I don't place better positioned Ults. That was still true when offlane Void was popular around TI4 anyway (before the various nerfs). The value in offlane Void has always been his ulti, and the hero wasn't that good in the hands of an inexperienced player (notice even in that era the teams like EG that had a proficient Void player valued the hero FAR more highly than teams who didn't). Even when he was one of the meta picks for offlane, he had the potential to be insanely useless if the player wasn't particularly good at using Chrono. There was never an expectation that you would solo kill with his ulti, and even if you could solo kill a support with it, removing the threat of a Chrono teamfight was worth less than the gain from a support solo kill a lot of the time.
I don't know about that. Mask of Madness even with offlane farming speed back during TI4 was enough to turn Void into a monster with 4 levels of Time Lock, even outside of Chrono.
With Chrono and solo-kill potential if the enemy only left one hero in their safelane suddenly their T1 is actually in danger. Right now that's not the case at all.
On January 14 2016 19:24 ChunderBoy wrote:
ive played him in party and on a smurf with his new changes.
idk he still feels strong as a carry but cant rly know for sure unless i spam him in 7k
went treads/aquila/hotd
farm a lot and use hotd correctly
get sny
diassemble into manta
get silver edge
skadi/butterfly/mkb w.e u need
finish satanic
moonshard?
also portrait click timewalks if ure manfighting an enemy and want to heal
so u timewalk in ur place instead of using turn rate or jumping small distances which can waste time
1-1-4 into 4-1-4 build
time dilation wrecks heroes like weaver way too hard
just use it as soon as u see him out of shuchuki and its over for him
Why max E before Q? Is the 5 second cooldown with 50 mana cost not way more valuable to spam and get more heals? Please explain.
|
timewalk max might be good on offlane but seems terrible for safe lane carry
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On January 15 2016 05:17 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 19:17 TheYango wrote:On January 14 2016 17:33 Torte de Lini wrote:
But his ultimate is pretty awkward now that you can't solokill, I am actually unsure how to use it now if my team aren't ranged heroes or I don't place better positioned Ults. That was still true when offlane Void was popular around TI4 anyway (before the various nerfs). The value in offlane Void has always been his ulti, and the hero wasn't that good in the hands of an inexperienced player (notice even in that era the teams like EG that had a proficient Void player valued the hero FAR more highly than teams who didn't). Even when he was one of the meta picks for offlane, he had the potential to be insanely useless if the player wasn't particularly good at using Chrono. There was never an expectation that you would solo kill with his ulti, and even if you could solo kill a support with it, removing the threat of a Chrono teamfight was worth less than the gain from a support solo kill a lot of the time. I don't know about that. Mask of Madness even with offlane farming speed back during TI4 was enough to turn Void into a monster with 4 levels of Time Lock, even outside of Chrono. With Chrono and solo-kill potential if the enemy only left one hero in their safelane suddenly their T1 is actually in danger. Right now that's not the case at all. Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 19:24 ChunderBoy wrote:
ive played him in party and on a smurf with his new changes.
idk he still feels strong as a carry but cant rly know for sure unless i spam him in 7k
went treads/aquila/hotd
farm a lot and use hotd correctly
get sny
diassemble into manta
get silver edge
skadi/butterfly/mkb w.e u need
finish satanic
moonshard?
also portrait click timewalks if ure manfighting an enemy and want to heal
so u timewalk in ur place instead of using turn rate or jumping small distances which can waste time
1-1-4 into 4-1-4 build
time dilation wrecks heroes like weaver way too hard
just use it as soon as u see him out of shuchuki and its over for him Why max E before Q? Is the 5 second cooldown with 50 mana cost not way more valuable to spam and get more heals? Please explain.
pretty sure its safelane build where u have more kill potential
|
On January 15 2016 06:36 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 05:17 hariooo wrote:On January 14 2016 19:17 TheYango wrote:On January 14 2016 17:33 Torte de Lini wrote:
But his ultimate is pretty awkward now that you can't solokill, I am actually unsure how to use it now if my team aren't ranged heroes or I don't place better positioned Ults. That was still true when offlane Void was popular around TI4 anyway (before the various nerfs). The value in offlane Void has always been his ulti, and the hero wasn't that good in the hands of an inexperienced player (notice even in that era the teams like EG that had a proficient Void player valued the hero FAR more highly than teams who didn't). Even when he was one of the meta picks for offlane, he had the potential to be insanely useless if the player wasn't particularly good at using Chrono. There was never an expectation that you would solo kill with his ulti, and even if you could solo kill a support with it, removing the threat of a Chrono teamfight was worth less than the gain from a support solo kill a lot of the time. I don't know about that. Mask of Madness even with offlane farming speed back during TI4 was enough to turn Void into a monster with 4 levels of Time Lock, even outside of Chrono. With Chrono and solo-kill potential if the enemy only left one hero in their safelane suddenly their T1 is actually in danger. Right now that's not the case at all. On January 14 2016 19:24 ChunderBoy wrote:
ive played him in party and on a smurf with his new changes.
idk he still feels strong as a carry but cant rly know for sure unless i spam him in 7k
went treads/aquila/hotd
farm a lot and use hotd correctly
get sny
diassemble into manta
get silver edge
skadi/butterfly/mkb w.e u need
finish satanic
moonshard?
also portrait click timewalks if ure manfighting an enemy and want to heal
so u timewalk in ur place instead of using turn rate or jumping small distances which can waste time
1-1-4 into 4-1-4 build
time dilation wrecks heroes like weaver way too hard
just use it as soon as u see him out of shuchuki and its over for him Why max E before Q? Is the 5 second cooldown with 50 mana cost not way more valuable to spam and get more heals? Please explain. pretty sure its safelane build where u have more kill potential
Of course of course. Beesa, playing the carry.
|
So I picked this hero the other day against an Invoker (70% slow? icefrog plz). My position 1 play is awful (don't get much practice at farming) but my team's cores on other lanes balled super hard and I can at least hit chonos so we won. I think I followed Torte's guide with regard to core items (which IIRC was vlads->yasha->aghs) then got manta and moon shard.
idk... the build felt like it wasn't prioritising attack speed enough, considering Time Lock. Is Maelstrom/Mjolnir bad on this hero now for some reason?
(disclaimer: I don't know a damn thing about carry itemisation)
|
Torte's guide doesn't really kick in as a carry until Manta. I'm still trying to figure out whether that means I should get it before aghs if I'm position 1.
|
United States15275 Posts
On January 15 2016 10:56 Aquanim wrote:
Is Maelstrom/Mjolnir bad on this hero now for some reason?
No. They work fine. The issue is MoM/Maelstrom is no longer in vague for a variety of reasons and in general, the hero has moved towards midgame builds focused on tanking/chasing. The safelane is still in chaos since no one knows what his peaks are.
|
On January 15 2016 10:56 Aquanim wrote:
So I picked this hero the other day against an Invoker (70% slow? icefrog plz). My position 1 play is awful (don't get much practice at farming) but my team's cores on other lanes balled super hard and I can at least hit chonos so we won. I think I followed Torte's guide with regard to core items (which IIRC was vlads->yasha->aghs) then got manta and moon shard.
idk... the build felt like it wasn't prioritising attack speed enough, considering Time Lock. Is Maelstrom/Mjolnir bad on this hero now for some reason?
(disclaimer: I don't know a damn thing about carry itemisation)
shadowblade.
both good initiation chrono and atk speed.
it's the best item atm i think.
|
United States15275 Posts
Considering you only get killing potential once every 4-6 uses of Shadow Walk, Shadow Blade is fairly inefficient in terms of return value.
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
implying void needs chrono to kill??
|
shadowblade is good coz it can be made after disassembling sange and yasha into silver edge
|
SoCal8910 Posts
On January 15 2016 11:02 Buckyman wrote:
Torte's guide doesn't really kick in as a carry until Manta. I'm still trying to figure out whether that means I should get it before aghs if I'm position 1.
Torte's build is half geared towards offlane and half geared towards the safe lane. he needs to pick a position, or stop being so stubborn on making a 2nd guide or 2nd tab/column for offlane VS safe lane purchase.
if you are safelaning, im sure there are circumstances that agha could be ok, but you'll find more value in other items that allow you to get kills in/out of chrono which brings me to...
On January 15 2016 18:28 ahswtini wrote:
implying void needs chrono to kill??
I think this is the most important thing to consider with the void changes. you can actually kill outside of chronosphere now and considering all of the nerfs it received, this is a good thing.
as for lothar, that's actually really REALLY smart. it allows you to save your time walk for heavy dmg and allows you to get into range of someone so you can hold your chrono for their attempted escape. and if you wait until they use an important cd (like a QOP's blink) while you're stalking them, they are as good as dead. leave it to beesa to change my mind about safe laning the hero :D
|
For the vanguard -> radiance build, has anyone tried just building naked vit booster (maybe pms?) -> radiance? I feel like the majority of the value from vanguard on void right now is mainly from the bonus hp, and not completing the item allows for things like a much faster octarine down the line.
|
SoCal8910 Posts
On January 16 2016 05:25 GtC wrote:
For the vanguard -> radiance build, has anyone tried just building naked vit booster (maybe pms?) -> radiance? I feel like the majority of the value from vanguard on void right now is mainly from the bonus hp, and not completing the item allows for things like a much faster octarine down the line.
I haven't seen this build on void. Have a replay?
|
|
|
SoCal8910 Posts
this is a unique build lol
i think based on the fact that he had an omniknight, he opted for a physical dmg mitigation build and raw hp to make up for void's poor str gain. plus with time walk, invoker's combo is much less potent. you won't see this kind of a build very frequently.
but i think naked vit booster into radiance defeats the purpose of the dmg mitigation. ~17min, he stands and manfights a troll warlord before backing out when TP's are inc. your ability to fight outside of chrono and safely farm are hampered without the block i think
|
On January 16 2016 03:41 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 11:02 Buckyman wrote:
Torte's guide doesn't really kick in as a carry until Manta. I'm still trying to figure out whether that means I should get it before aghs if I'm position 1. Torte's build is half geared towards offlane and half geared towards the safe lane. he needs to pick a position, or stop being so stubborn on making a 2nd guide or 2nd tab/column for offlane VS safe lane purchase. if you are safelaning, im sure there are circumstances that agha could be ok, but you'll find more value in other items that allow you to get kills in/out of chrono which brings me to... Show nested quote +On January 15 2016 18:28 ahswtini wrote:
implying void needs chrono to kill?? I think this is the most important thing to consider with the void changes. you can actually kill outside of chronosphere now and considering all of the nerfs it received, this is a good thing. as for lothar, that's actually really REALLY smart. it allows you to save your time walk for heavy dmg and allows you to get into range of someone so you can hold your chrono for their attempted escape. and if you wait until they use an important cd (like a QOP's blink) while you're stalking them, they are as good as dead. leave it to beesa to change my mind about safe laning the hero :D
I haven't figured how to build him to be honest.
|
On January 16 2016 07:34 BluemoonSC wrote:
this is a unique build lol
i think based on the fact that he had an omniknight, he opted for a physical dmg mitigation build and raw hp to make up for void's poor str gain. plus with time walk, invoker's combo is much less potent. you won't see this kind of a build very frequently.
but i think naked vit booster into radiance defeats the purpose of the dmg mitigation. ~17min, he stands and manfights a troll warlord before backing out when TP's are inc. your ability to fight outside of chrono and safely farm are hampered without the block i think
I feel like a pms does almost the same thing without spending so much gold on a deadend item though...
The only thing you lack when skip over completing the vanguard is the regen, which really isn't such a big deal imo.
|
On January 16 2016 08:23 GtC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 07:34 BluemoonSC wrote:
this is a unique build lol
i think based on the fact that he had an omniknight, he opted for a physical dmg mitigation build and raw hp to make up for void's poor str gain. plus with time walk, invoker's combo is much less potent. you won't see this kind of a build very frequently.
but i think naked vit booster into radiance defeats the purpose of the dmg mitigation. ~17min, he stands and manfights a troll warlord before backing out when TP's are inc. your ability to fight outside of chrono and safely farm are hampered without the block i think I feel like a pms does almost the same thing without spending so much gold on a deadend item though... The only thing you lack when skip over completing the vanguard is the regen, which really isn't such a big deal imo.
im inclined to believe that pms+hotd is generally way better than vanguard.
hotd with creep usage wins lanes (if rushed) and accelerates farm so much and makes walking around the map pretty ez
buying a pms and helm of iron will in lane is unlimited sustain tbh
it just kinda comes down to whether ure gonna survive that extra nuke (coz of hp bonus) while stunned or not. which i dont think matters too much
|
There's no point to Shadow Blade unless there's a specific person you want to build a Silver's Edge against, blink is always going to be better otherwise. Cheaper and generally better initation.
|
SoCal8910 Posts
On January 16 2016 09:00 Birdie wrote:
There's no point to Shadow Blade unless there's a specific person you want to build a Silver's Edge against, blink is always going to be better otherwise. Cheaper and generally better initation.
it takes up a slot and doesnt provide you with any tank nor attack speed. if you're playing 1 pos, i disagree. if you're playing offlane, then i agree with you.
On January 16 2016 08:30 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 08:23 GtC wrote:On January 16 2016 07:34 BluemoonSC wrote:
this is a unique build lol
i think based on the fact that he had an omniknight, he opted for a physical dmg mitigation build and raw hp to make up for void's poor str gain. plus with time walk, invoker's combo is much less potent. you won't see this kind of a build very frequently.
but i think naked vit booster into radiance defeats the purpose of the dmg mitigation. ~17min, he stands and manfights a troll warlord before backing out when TP's are inc. your ability to fight outside of chrono and safely farm are hampered without the block i think I feel like a pms does almost the same thing without spending so much gold on a deadend item though... The only thing you lack when skip over completing the vanguard is the regen, which really isn't such a big deal imo. im inclined to believe that pms+hotd is generally way better than vanguard. hotd with creep usage wins lanes (if rushed) and accelerates farm so much and makes walking around the map pretty ez buying a pms and helm of iron will in lane is unlimited sustain tbh it just kinda comes down to whether ure gonna survive that extra nuke (coz of hp bonus) while stunned or not. which i dont think matters too much
did you check the replay or their lineup? i would agree with you but given their lineup, its the only reason i think waga did it (other than being experimental)
|
On January 16 2016 09:03 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 09:00 Birdie wrote:
There's no point to Shadow Blade unless there's a specific person you want to build a Silver's Edge against, blink is always going to be better otherwise. Cheaper and generally better initation. it takes up a slot and doesnt provide you with any tank nor attack speed. if you're playing 1 pos, i disagree. if you're playing offlane, then i agree with you.
Based on that reasoning, no carry should ever get a blink, yet plenty do. Also I'm pretty sure pos1 void is awful right now
|
On January 16 2016 09:18 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2016 09:03 BluemoonSC wrote:On January 16 2016 09:00 Birdie wrote:
There's no point to Shadow Blade unless there's a specific person you want to build a Silver's Edge against, blink is always going to be better otherwise. Cheaper and generally better initation. it takes up a slot and doesnt provide you with any tank nor attack speed. if you're playing 1 pos, i disagree. if you're playing offlane, then i agree with you. Based on that reasoning, no carry should ever get a blink, yet plenty do. Also I'm pretty sure pos1 void is awful right now
Dunno, Beesa's reasoning is totally viable for void imo. SB is usually worse on initiators because in teamfights when you want to initiate a sentry in place slaughters you, but jump out of sb into chrono is slightly slower but better in terms of range than blink dagger and equally safe. I think the 1k for the stats and pickoff potential are totally worth it.
|
shadowblade is the king of low mmr and pub so I'd go for it haha.
I mean we know timewalk alone is not enough for initiation. so we need initiation.
so basicaslly blink/sb/forcestaff
i think shadowblade is a great compromise of initiation and atk speed, both are good on void. The way a "value item" work is not that it serve 1 purpose but that it serves multiple purpose. for the same reason PL buys diffusal, and invoker buys orchid. it's just such a good match.
|
1pos void isn't awful, it just needs to be ahead.
He's awkward because he immediately wants to itemise bulk, damage and mobility, but if he ever finds a 1-1.5 item lead he gets out of control in a way that few other carries can thanks to timewalk immortality, and that's pretty worthwhile.
I still think he's a better offlaner, but 1pos works very well if the game goes as planned. Shadowblade seems a pretty good way to create that lead.
|
Time walk makes time lapse jealous
|
if only there where some items that gave health and offense that where cost effective.
now im talking about straight stats no toggle etc, there is no str and dmg besides sange, also its needed for some of the STR heroes that could work as carries later or if implemented, the hard hitting in this game is to focused on the agility department if anything is needed that is what need to be worked on by dota2 team in the future if anything espeically when pitlord is the last of the orgins of dota2 and if they want to implement some sort of carry that needs it later on.
What im talking about is STR as stats and damage. its the same with attackspeed str and attackspeed there is no good items for this and a big gap here.
|
whats wrong with toggling
armlet void the legend yo
|
Universe is playing Faceless Void again so must be good now.
|
no universe is good void is just void xD
|
How bout playing him like a pseudo anti-mage?
Edit: Like max time walk so u get like am blink and then farm bf, go manta, then diffusals :3
|
On January 27 2016 11:41 Checkm8 wrote:
How bout playing him like a pseudo anti-mage?
Edit: Like max time walk so u get like am blink and then farm bf, go manta, then diffusals :3
Cause Am gets big mana void damage. That build won't give you damage, manta as a standard item is bad on void. Doesn't synergize at all. Maybe to remove silence/entangles depending on game, but that build sounds so awful. 
|
SoCal8910 Posts
honestly, battlefury gives you a decent amount of damage, but that's not the problem with getting one. the real issue is that it gives you no attack speed. manta is not horrible because of the fact that it can remove silence (and it addresses move speed + attack speed), but you'll likely want a bkb because people will be trying to disable you.
anyway, I'd be slightly interested in seeing this build. i've always thought that you needed to build safe lane void in a way that allows you to be in and out of a fight quickly and take advantage of chrono ON cooldown, so attack speed was king.
you could instead go MoM/mael and farm speadily for roughly the same cost because you can QB the trees in the jungle and you won't need to blink bc you have the increased move speed AND you can still get good dmg out of your chrono. but you don't get the regen..and that's not the end of the world I think. so I'm not convinced and would have to see the build in action.
|
I've had a good amount of success in lower level pubs with pre-7:00 midas, into manta, urn, lvl 2 diffusal
I play him a lot like slark: you chrono, blow someone up, use diffusal slow to finish up if necessary, and leave, then come back after an urn charge with full hp and start brawling, since his q lets him fight toe to toe with almost everyone. You should have about 2000 hp after you get your diffusal because of all the levels that midas gives you
I like the midgame urn because it basically gives you slark regen, and it gives you a little bit of damage, health, and mana regen.
|
Tried pseudo am build and I really missed the attack speed given by MoM builds...like, u feel so sad because u can actually kill people alone with chrono up and MoM, but u can't do it with bfury...sure, every hit hurts, and it cleaves, but u can't really kill people during the chrono duration...
I think I'll try midas MoM sb next...
|
On January 29 2016 00:53 Checkm8 wrote:
Tried pseudo am build and I really missed the attack speed given by MoM builds...like, u feel so sad because u can actually kill people alone with chrono up and MoM, but u can't do it with bfury...sure, every hit hurts, and it cleaves, but u can't really kill people during the chrono duration...
I think I'll try midas MoM sb next...
Back when void carry was meta (pre MoM nerf) ppl would go mom -> bfury, not straight bfury rush.
|
11589 Posts
So as a resident Void picker who used to love playing him safelane carry, I've been quite disheartened with his apparent relegation to the offlane. Buying blink-vlads every game is not what I feel is at the heart of this hero, yet many players saw it as the only viable option in games for quite some time. However, as many of you have been attempting to iterate on builds in this thread, I thought I would open a discussion on the newest fad in safelane Void brought to you by the newly minted 8000 MMR player, Wagamama.
+ Show Spoiler [The Build] +
+ Show Spoiler [The Reasoning] +
Essentially, the build is broken down simply. Early game, you buy aquila, treads, quelling, and vanguard in some order. In the videos, Waga says to start stout/ring/tango/salve but as with any starting build it's adaptable to what you want to do. Once you have most of these items, your lane pressure goes way up because you're insanely tanky and it's difficult for any non-burst hero to kill you without at least one other hero's assistance and chain stuns. You are fairly static in general in pushing the lane, but your sustainability is quite high so you generally farm the next part of the build fairly quickly.
The next part of this build is somewhat odd, and may only be a product of the item itself being slightly overpowered, but Waga recommends that you buy Radiance. It makes sense, given the miss chance and the increase in farm rate. The only downside to this item that Waga touches on is that you still don't really have an amazing ability to solo-kill heros in Chrono, but with an appropriate line-up this isn't an issue as the build is a teamfight build primarily. The playstyle with this build can be highly aggressive, gated only by the cooldown on Timewalk and your personal ability as a player to outplay with it combined with Time Dilation.
At this point, the only thing that really kills you is chain stuns/silences and high burst damage. You theoretically could buy BKB at this stage but that item offers very little other than the obviously strong active, but then you'd be limited by its uptime which only becomes worse as the game goes on. Unless you absolutely cannot avoid their (counter)engage (like a blink tide for example), you probably shouldn't buy it. Instead, Waga recommends buying Manta Style which removes your problem with silence and lets you outplay certain stuns, and gives you beneficial stats to boot. It also opens up the radiance/manta shenanigans with wave pushing that further accelerates your farm.
Next, Waga says he generally buys Octarine, but this is the point where I have to question if there aren't better alternatives. Certainly, the Octarine allows you to continue to increase in tankiness and gives you yet more Time Walks, Dilations, and Manta illusions to play around with in any given scenario, but there are other needs to consider at this stage in the game that you might have to address. Often, it becomes necessary that you are able to solo kill heros in Chronosphere in the lategame, and there are many damage items all with their own situational uses that allow you to do this. There are arguments for Moon Shard, Butterfly, Mjollnir, Assault Cuirass, MKB, and even Daedalus in different scenarios. In this way, Void acts like the more classic carry he was known to be, a role he still has to fulfill if picked in the safelane on occasion.
Waga mentions that OD still makes your life miserable, and with his current prevalence in pubs it is best that you not first pick this hero lest you be made very sad. I would also add that Beastmaster is another meta-relevant hero to consider attempting to avoid, as Roar is a chain-stun enabling sort of spell that Void cannot avoid, making solo farming less safe throughout the game and teamfights much more dangerous, even with the tankiness of the build. Generally, anything that removes Void's ability to abuse the short cooldown on Timewalk significantly hampers this hero.
All that said, this build is strong at pretty much all stages of the game. Void's current laning is quite good and once you have a maxed Timewalk and your Vanguard, there really isn't a lull in the strength of the build unless your team falls behind and it becomes difficult to farm Radiance quickly. Thankfully, Void's Chronosphere is a tool that allows you to simply remove a single scary hero with some reliability in most line-ups so there is always the chance to turn a lost lane into a fed spree later in the game.
I'd like some discussion on the merits of this build, in particular if perhaps it only appears to be effective because the holy trinity of Radiance/Manta/Octarine is just an overtuned combination, and if there are any alternatives to some of the core items such as Manta being replaced by SnY and Octarine being replaced by any sort of item that is generally accepted to be good on the hero.
|
On April 08 2016 22:02 yamato77 wrote:So as a resident Void picker who used to love playing him safelane carry, I've been quite disheartened with his apparent relegation to the offlane. Buying blink-vlads every game is not what I feel is at the heart of this hero, yet many players saw it as the only viable option in games for quite some time. However, as many of you have been attempting to iterate on builds in this thread, I thought I would open a discussion on the newest fad in safelane Void brought to you by the newly minted 8000 MMR player, Wagamama. + Show Spoiler [The Build] +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2GLVcZfT3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OXVevx4EUU Essentially, the build is broken down simply. Early game, you buy aquila, treads, quelling, and vanguard in some order. In the videos, Waga says to start stout/ring/tango/salve but as with any starting build it's adaptable to what you want to do. Once you have most of these items, your lane pressure goes way up because you're insanely tanky and it's difficult for any non-burst hero to kill you without at least one other hero's assistance and chain stuns. You are fairly static in general in pushing the lane, but your sustainability is quite high so you generally farm the next part of the build fairly quickly. The next part of this build is somewhat odd, and may only be a product of the item itself being slightly overpowered, but Waga recommends that you buy Radiance. It makes sense, given the miss chance and the increase in farm rate. The only downside to this item that Waga touches on is that you still don't really have an amazing ability to solo-kill heros in Chrono, but with an appropriate line-up this isn't an issue as the build is a teamfight build primarily. The playstyle with this build can be highly aggressive, gated only by the cooldown on Timewalk and your personal ability as a player to outplay with it combined with Time Dilation. At this point, the only thing that really kills you is chain stuns/silences and high burst damage. You theoretically could buy BKB at this stage but that item offers very little other than the obviously strong active, but then you'd be limited by its uptime which only becomes worse as the game goes on. Unless you absolutely cannot avoid their (counter)engage (like a blink tide for example), you probably shouldn't buy it. Instead, Waga recommends buying Manta Style which removes your problem with silence and lets you outplay certain stuns, and gives you beneficial stats to boot. It also opens up the radiance/manta shenanigans with wave pushing that further accelerates your farm. Next, Waga says he generally buys Octarine, but this is the point where I have to question if there aren't better alternatives. Certainly, the Octarine allows you to continue to increase in tankiness and gives you yet more Time Walks, Dilations, and Manta illusions to play around with in any given scenario, but there are other needs to consider at this stage in the game that you might have to address. Often, it becomes necessary that you are able to solo kill heros in Chronosphere in the lategame, and there are many damage items all with their own situational uses that allow you to do this. There are arguments for Moon Shard, Butterfly, Mjollnir, Assault Cuirass, MKB, and even Daedalus in different scenarios. In this way, Void acts like the more classic carry he was known to be, a role he still has to fulfill if picked in the safelane on occasion. Waga mentions that OD still makes your life miserable, and with his current prevalence in pubs it is best that you not first pick this hero lest you be made very sad. I would also add that Beastmaster is another meta-relevant hero to consider attempting to avoid, as Roar is a chain-stun enabling sort of spell that Void cannot avoid, making solo farming less safe throughout the game and teamfights much more dangerous, even with the tankiness of the build. Generally, anything that removes Void's ability to abuse the short cooldown on Timewalk significantly hampers this hero. All that said, this build is strong at pretty much all stages of the game. Void's current laning is quite good and once you have a maxed Timewalk and your Vanguard, there really isn't a lull in the strength of the build unless your team falls behind and it becomes difficult to farm Radiance quickly. Thankfully, Void's Chronosphere is a tool that allows you to simply remove a single scary hero with some reliability in most line-ups so there is always the chance to turn a lost lane into a fed spree later in the game. I'd like some discussion on the merits of this build, in particular if perhaps it only appears to be effective because the holy trinity of Radiance/Manta/Octarine is just an overtuned combination, and if there are any alternatives to some of the core items such as Manta being replaced by SnY and Octarine being replaced by any sort of item that is generally accepted to be good on the hero.
waga and other void pickers stopped buying octarine and manta every game
the important thing is radiance not manta not octarine
u can do the same from the offlane if enemy cant zone u properly
id rather be an offlane void with a radiance than a safelane one
its just generally better for the team
|
11589 Posts
On April 08 2016 22:15 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 22:02 yamato77 wrote:So as a resident Void picker who used to love playing him safelane carry, I've been quite disheartened with his apparent relegation to the offlane. Buying blink-vlads every game is not what I feel is at the heart of this hero, yet many players saw it as the only viable option in games for quite some time. However, as many of you have been attempting to iterate on builds in this thread, I thought I would open a discussion on the newest fad in safelane Void brought to you by the newly minted 8000 MMR player, Wagamama. + Show Spoiler [The Build] +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2GLVcZfT3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OXVevx4EUU Essentially, the build is broken down simply. Early game, you buy aquila, treads, quelling, and vanguard in some order. In the videos, Waga says to start stout/ring/tango/salve but as with any starting build it's adaptable to what you want to do. Once you have most of these items, your lane pressure goes way up because you're insanely tanky and it's difficult for any non-burst hero to kill you without at least one other hero's assistance and chain stuns. You are fairly static in general in pushing the lane, but your sustainability is quite high so you generally farm the next part of the build fairly quickly. The next part of this build is somewhat odd, and may only be a product of the item itself being slightly overpowered, but Waga recommends that you buy Radiance. It makes sense, given the miss chance and the increase in farm rate. The only downside to this item that Waga touches on is that you still don't really have an amazing ability to solo-kill heros in Chrono, but with an appropriate line-up this isn't an issue as the build is a teamfight build primarily. The playstyle with this build can be highly aggressive, gated only by the cooldown on Timewalk and your personal ability as a player to outplay with it combined with Time Dilation. At this point, the only thing that really kills you is chain stuns/silences and high burst damage. You theoretically could buy BKB at this stage but that item offers very little other than the obviously strong active, but then you'd be limited by its uptime which only becomes worse as the game goes on. Unless you absolutely cannot avoid their (counter)engage (like a blink tide for example), you probably shouldn't buy it. Instead, Waga recommends buying Manta Style which removes your problem with silence and lets you outplay certain stuns, and gives you beneficial stats to boot. It also opens up the radiance/manta shenanigans with wave pushing that further accelerates your farm. Next, Waga says he generally buys Octarine, but this is the point where I have to question if there aren't better alternatives. Certainly, the Octarine allows you to continue to increase in tankiness and gives you yet more Time Walks, Dilations, and Manta illusions to play around with in any given scenario, but there are other needs to consider at this stage in the game that you might have to address. Often, it becomes necessary that you are able to solo kill heros in Chronosphere in the lategame, and there are many damage items all with their own situational uses that allow you to do this. There are arguments for Moon Shard, Butterfly, Mjollnir, Assault Cuirass, MKB, and even Daedalus in different scenarios. In this way, Void acts like the more classic carry he was known to be, a role he still has to fulfill if picked in the safelane on occasion. Waga mentions that OD still makes your life miserable, and with his current prevalence in pubs it is best that you not first pick this hero lest you be made very sad. I would also add that Beastmaster is another meta-relevant hero to consider attempting to avoid, as Roar is a chain-stun enabling sort of spell that Void cannot avoid, making solo farming less safe throughout the game and teamfights much more dangerous, even with the tankiness of the build. Generally, anything that removes Void's ability to abuse the short cooldown on Timewalk significantly hampers this hero. All that said, this build is strong at pretty much all stages of the game. Void's current laning is quite good and once you have a maxed Timewalk and your Vanguard, there really isn't a lull in the strength of the build unless your team falls behind and it becomes difficult to farm Radiance quickly. Thankfully, Void's Chronosphere is a tool that allows you to simply remove a single scary hero with some reliability in most line-ups so there is always the chance to turn a lost lane into a fed spree later in the game. I'd like some discussion on the merits of this build, in particular if perhaps it only appears to be effective because the holy trinity of Radiance/Manta/Octarine is just an overtuned combination, and if there are any alternatives to some of the core items such as Manta being replaced by SnY and Octarine being replaced by any sort of item that is generally accepted to be good on the hero. waga and other void pickers stopped buying octarine and manta every game the important thing is radiance not manta not octarine u can do the same from the offlane if enemy cant zone u properly id rather be an offlane void with a radiance than a safelane one its just generally better for the team
I see where that would be better, because having a Vanguard-Radiance Void as your safelaner feels pretty weird in terms of the kind of damage you usually get out of the safelane these days, and the playstyle seems to fit an offlaner better. Still, banking on the reliability of offlane farm seems risky. As strong as Void is with a few levels, he's pretty limited in the first two or three and susceptible to being zoned. I suppose you can buy Talon at that point and just get your levels/farm that way until you are strong enough to lane, but it's definitely not great if you're trying to get Radiance at a decent timing.
I'm definitely more interested in playing him safelane though, personally. I did Vanguard-Radiance but at that point I felt like I just needed more damage. That's why I was questioning the idea Waga is trying to sell in the video (that he posted today) of buying Manta/Octarine. It makes sense that the build has moved away from that, and it also makes sense that he didn't talk about it, either!
|
On April 08 2016 22:30 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 22:15 ChunderBoy wrote:On April 08 2016 22:02 yamato77 wrote:So as a resident Void picker who used to love playing him safelane carry, I've been quite disheartened with his apparent relegation to the offlane. Buying blink-vlads every game is not what I feel is at the heart of this hero, yet many players saw it as the only viable option in games for quite some time. However, as many of you have been attempting to iterate on builds in this thread, I thought I would open a discussion on the newest fad in safelane Void brought to you by the newly minted 8000 MMR player, Wagamama. + Show Spoiler [The Build] +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2GLVcZfT3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OXVevx4EUU Essentially, the build is broken down simply. Early game, you buy aquila, treads, quelling, and vanguard in some order. In the videos, Waga says to start stout/ring/tango/salve but as with any starting build it's adaptable to what you want to do. Once you have most of these items, your lane pressure goes way up because you're insanely tanky and it's difficult for any non-burst hero to kill you without at least one other hero's assistance and chain stuns. You are fairly static in general in pushing the lane, but your sustainability is quite high so you generally farm the next part of the build fairly quickly. The next part of this build is somewhat odd, and may only be a product of the item itself being slightly overpowered, but Waga recommends that you buy Radiance. It makes sense, given the miss chance and the increase in farm rate. The only downside to this item that Waga touches on is that you still don't really have an amazing ability to solo-kill heros in Chrono, but with an appropriate line-up this isn't an issue as the build is a teamfight build primarily. The playstyle with this build can be highly aggressive, gated only by the cooldown on Timewalk and your personal ability as a player to outplay with it combined with Time Dilation. At this point, the only thing that really kills you is chain stuns/silences and high burst damage. You theoretically could buy BKB at this stage but that item offers very little other than the obviously strong active, but then you'd be limited by its uptime which only becomes worse as the game goes on. Unless you absolutely cannot avoid their (counter)engage (like a blink tide for example), you probably shouldn't buy it. Instead, Waga recommends buying Manta Style which removes your problem with silence and lets you outplay certain stuns, and gives you beneficial stats to boot. It also opens up the radiance/manta shenanigans with wave pushing that further accelerates your farm. Next, Waga says he generally buys Octarine, but this is the point where I have to question if there aren't better alternatives. Certainly, the Octarine allows you to continue to increase in tankiness and gives you yet more Time Walks, Dilations, and Manta illusions to play around with in any given scenario, but there are other needs to consider at this stage in the game that you might have to address. Often, it becomes necessary that you are able to solo kill heros in Chronosphere in the lategame, and there are many damage items all with their own situational uses that allow you to do this. There are arguments for Moon Shard, Butterfly, Mjollnir, Assault Cuirass, MKB, and even Daedalus in different scenarios. In this way, Void acts like the more classic carry he was known to be, a role he still has to fulfill if picked in the safelane on occasion. Waga mentions that OD still makes your life miserable, and with his current prevalence in pubs it is best that you not first pick this hero lest you be made very sad. I would also add that Beastmaster is another meta-relevant hero to consider attempting to avoid, as Roar is a chain-stun enabling sort of spell that Void cannot avoid, making solo farming less safe throughout the game and teamfights much more dangerous, even with the tankiness of the build. Generally, anything that removes Void's ability to abuse the short cooldown on Timewalk significantly hampers this hero. All that said, this build is strong at pretty much all stages of the game. Void's current laning is quite good and once you have a maxed Timewalk and your Vanguard, there really isn't a lull in the strength of the build unless your team falls behind and it becomes difficult to farm Radiance quickly. Thankfully, Void's Chronosphere is a tool that allows you to simply remove a single scary hero with some reliability in most line-ups so there is always the chance to turn a lost lane into a fed spree later in the game. I'd like some discussion on the merits of this build, in particular if perhaps it only appears to be effective because the holy trinity of Radiance/Manta/Octarine is just an overtuned combination, and if there are any alternatives to some of the core items such as Manta being replaced by SnY and Octarine being replaced by any sort of item that is generally accepted to be good on the hero. waga and other void pickers stopped buying octarine and manta every game the important thing is radiance not manta not octarine u can do the same from the offlane if enemy cant zone u properly id rather be an offlane void with a radiance than a safelane one its just generally better for the team I see where that would be better, because having a Vanguard-Radiance Void as your safelaner feels pretty weird in terms of the kind of damage you usually get out of the safelane these days, and the playstyle seems to fit an offlaner better. Still, banking on the reliability of offlane farm seems risky. As strong as Void is with a few levels, he's pretty limited in the first two or three and susceptible to being zoned. I suppose you can buy Talon at that point and just get your levels/farm that way until you are strong enough to lane, but it's definitely not great if you're trying to get Radiance at a decent timing. I'm definitely more interested in playing him safelane though, personally. I did Vanguard-Radiance but at that point I felt like I just needed more damage. That's why I was questioning the idea Waga is trying to sell in the video (that he posted today) of buying Manta/Octarine. It makes sense that the build has moved away from that, and it also makes sense that he didn't talk about it, either!
ive played 6 offlane and 1 safelane void games (at high7k) this patch i think i went radiance in 4 of them and utility in 3 of them won all
void is just a broken hero regardless of build
also radiance doesnt need to have a decent timing any radiance is good idk where this misconception of if u dont finish radiance early then its bad comes from.... maybe thats true like 10 patches ago when burn dmg was only 35 and it had no miss aura and dmg was 60 instead of 65
|
11589 Posts
On April 08 2016 22:31 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 22:30 yamato77 wrote:On April 08 2016 22:15 ChunderBoy wrote:On April 08 2016 22:02 yamato77 wrote:So as a resident Void picker who used to love playing him safelane carry, I've been quite disheartened with his apparent relegation to the offlane. Buying blink-vlads every game is not what I feel is at the heart of this hero, yet many players saw it as the only viable option in games for quite some time. However, as many of you have been attempting to iterate on builds in this thread, I thought I would open a discussion on the newest fad in safelane Void brought to you by the newly minted 8000 MMR player, Wagamama. + Show Spoiler [The Build] +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2GLVcZfT3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OXVevx4EUU Essentially, the build is broken down simply. Early game, you buy aquila, treads, quelling, and vanguard in some order. In the videos, Waga says to start stout/ring/tango/salve but as with any starting build it's adaptable to what you want to do. Once you have most of these items, your lane pressure goes way up because you're insanely tanky and it's difficult for any non-burst hero to kill you without at least one other hero's assistance and chain stuns. You are fairly static in general in pushing the lane, but your sustainability is quite high so you generally farm the next part of the build fairly quickly. The next part of this build is somewhat odd, and may only be a product of the item itself being slightly overpowered, but Waga recommends that you buy Radiance. It makes sense, given the miss chance and the increase in farm rate. The only downside to this item that Waga touches on is that you still don't really have an amazing ability to solo-kill heros in Chrono, but with an appropriate line-up this isn't an issue as the build is a teamfight build primarily. The playstyle with this build can be highly aggressive, gated only by the cooldown on Timewalk and your personal ability as a player to outplay with it combined with Time Dilation. At this point, the only thing that really kills you is chain stuns/silences and high burst damage. You theoretically could buy BKB at this stage but that item offers very little other than the obviously strong active, but then you'd be limited by its uptime which only becomes worse as the game goes on. Unless you absolutely cannot avoid their (counter)engage (like a blink tide for example), you probably shouldn't buy it. Instead, Waga recommends buying Manta Style which removes your problem with silence and lets you outplay certain stuns, and gives you beneficial stats to boot. It also opens up the radiance/manta shenanigans with wave pushing that further accelerates your farm. Next, Waga says he generally buys Octarine, but this is the point where I have to question if there aren't better alternatives. Certainly, the Octarine allows you to continue to increase in tankiness and gives you yet more Time Walks, Dilations, and Manta illusions to play around with in any given scenario, but there are other needs to consider at this stage in the game that you might have to address. Often, it becomes necessary that you are able to solo kill heros in Chronosphere in the lategame, and there are many damage items all with their own situational uses that allow you to do this. There are arguments for Moon Shard, Butterfly, Mjollnir, Assault Cuirass, MKB, and even Daedalus in different scenarios. In this way, Void acts like the more classic carry he was known to be, a role he still has to fulfill if picked in the safelane on occasion. Waga mentions that OD still makes your life miserable, and with his current prevalence in pubs it is best that you not first pick this hero lest you be made very sad. I would also add that Beastmaster is another meta-relevant hero to consider attempting to avoid, as Roar is a chain-stun enabling sort of spell that Void cannot avoid, making solo farming less safe throughout the game and teamfights much more dangerous, even with the tankiness of the build. Generally, anything that removes Void's ability to abuse the short cooldown on Timewalk significantly hampers this hero. All that said, this build is strong at pretty much all stages of the game. Void's current laning is quite good and once you have a maxed Timewalk and your Vanguard, there really isn't a lull in the strength of the build unless your team falls behind and it becomes difficult to farm Radiance quickly. Thankfully, Void's Chronosphere is a tool that allows you to simply remove a single scary hero with some reliability in most line-ups so there is always the chance to turn a lost lane into a fed spree later in the game. I'd like some discussion on the merits of this build, in particular if perhaps it only appears to be effective because the holy trinity of Radiance/Manta/Octarine is just an overtuned combination, and if there are any alternatives to some of the core items such as Manta being replaced by SnY and Octarine being replaced by any sort of item that is generally accepted to be good on the hero. waga and other void pickers stopped buying octarine and manta every game the important thing is radiance not manta not octarine u can do the same from the offlane if enemy cant zone u properly id rather be an offlane void with a radiance than a safelane one its just generally better for the team I see where that would be better, because having a Vanguard-Radiance Void as your safelaner feels pretty weird in terms of the kind of damage you usually get out of the safelane these days, and the playstyle seems to fit an offlaner better. Still, banking on the reliability of offlane farm seems risky. As strong as Void is with a few levels, he's pretty limited in the first two or three and susceptible to being zoned. I suppose you can buy Talon at that point and just get your levels/farm that way until you are strong enough to lane, but it's definitely not great if you're trying to get Radiance at a decent timing. I'm definitely more interested in playing him safelane though, personally. I did Vanguard-Radiance but at that point I felt like I just needed more damage. That's why I was questioning the idea Waga is trying to sell in the video (that he posted today) of buying Manta/Octarine. It makes sense that the build has moved away from that, and it also makes sense that he didn't talk about it, either! ive played 6 offlane and 1 safelane void games (at high7k) this patch i think i went radiance in 4 of them and utility in 3 of them won all void is just a broken hero regardless of build also radiance doesnt need to have a decent timing any radiance is good idk where this misconception of if u dont finish radiance early then its bad comes from.... maybe thats true like 10 patches ago when burn dmg was only 35 and it had no miss aura and dmg was 60 instead of 65
I simply meant that Radiance is better the earlier you get it. I don't think it's bad if you get it at like 25 minutes or so but I also think that it's more impactful if you are able to buy it before then.
I definitely think Void is a bit broken and that's part of the reason I wanted to look more at the build. If he gets nerfed it will be more important to know what items are actually good if I want to play him, rather than what items are only good because he's busted and/or they are busted.
|
On April 08 2016 22:31 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 22:30 yamato77 wrote:On April 08 2016 22:15 ChunderBoy wrote:On April 08 2016 22:02 yamato77 wrote:So as a resident Void picker who used to love playing him safelane carry, I've been quite disheartened with his apparent relegation to the offlane. Buying blink-vlads every game is not what I feel is at the heart of this hero, yet many players saw it as the only viable option in games for quite some time. However, as many of you have been attempting to iterate on builds in this thread, I thought I would open a discussion on the newest fad in safelane Void brought to you by the newly minted 8000 MMR player, Wagamama. + Show Spoiler [The Build] +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2GLVcZfT3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OXVevx4EUU Essentially, the build is broken down simply. Early game, you buy aquila, treads, quelling, and vanguard in some order. In the videos, Waga says to start stout/ring/tango/salve but as with any starting build it's adaptable to what you want to do. Once you have most of these items, your lane pressure goes way up because you're insanely tanky and it's difficult for any non-burst hero to kill you without at least one other hero's assistance and chain stuns. You are fairly static in general in pushing the lane, but your sustainability is quite high so you generally farm the next part of the build fairly quickly. The next part of this build is somewhat odd, and may only be a product of the item itself being slightly overpowered, but Waga recommends that you buy Radiance. It makes sense, given the miss chance and the increase in farm rate. The only downside to this item that Waga touches on is that you still don't really have an amazing ability to solo-kill heros in Chrono, but with an appropriate line-up this isn't an issue as the build is a teamfight build primarily. The playstyle with this build can be highly aggressive, gated only by the cooldown on Timewalk and your personal ability as a player to outplay with it combined with Time Dilation. At this point, the only thing that really kills you is chain stuns/silences and high burst damage. You theoretically could buy BKB at this stage but that item offers very little other than the obviously strong active, but then you'd be limited by its uptime which only becomes worse as the game goes on. Unless you absolutely cannot avoid their (counter)engage (like a blink tide for example), you probably shouldn't buy it. Instead, Waga recommends buying Manta Style which removes your problem with silence and lets you outplay certain stuns, and gives you beneficial stats to boot. It also opens up the radiance/manta shenanigans with wave pushing that further accelerates your farm. Next, Waga says he generally buys Octarine, but this is the point where I have to question if there aren't better alternatives. Certainly, the Octarine allows you to continue to increase in tankiness and gives you yet more Time Walks, Dilations, and Manta illusions to play around with in any given scenario, but there are other needs to consider at this stage in the game that you might have to address. Often, it becomes necessary that you are able to solo kill heros in Chronosphere in the lategame, and there are many damage items all with their own situational uses that allow you to do this. There are arguments for Moon Shard, Butterfly, Mjollnir, Assault Cuirass, MKB, and even Daedalus in different scenarios. In this way, Void acts like the more classic carry he was known to be, a role he still has to fulfill if picked in the safelane on occasion. Waga mentions that OD still makes your life miserable, and with his current prevalence in pubs it is best that you not first pick this hero lest you be made very sad. I would also add that Beastmaster is another meta-relevant hero to consider attempting to avoid, as Roar is a chain-stun enabling sort of spell that Void cannot avoid, making solo farming less safe throughout the game and teamfights much more dangerous, even with the tankiness of the build. Generally, anything that removes Void's ability to abuse the short cooldown on Timewalk significantly hampers this hero. All that said, this build is strong at pretty much all stages of the game. Void's current laning is quite good and once you have a maxed Timewalk and your Vanguard, there really isn't a lull in the strength of the build unless your team falls behind and it becomes difficult to farm Radiance quickly. Thankfully, Void's Chronosphere is a tool that allows you to simply remove a single scary hero with some reliability in most line-ups so there is always the chance to turn a lost lane into a fed spree later in the game. I'd like some discussion on the merits of this build, in particular if perhaps it only appears to be effective because the holy trinity of Radiance/Manta/Octarine is just an overtuned combination, and if there are any alternatives to some of the core items such as Manta being replaced by SnY and Octarine being replaced by any sort of item that is generally accepted to be good on the hero. waga and other void pickers stopped buying octarine and manta every game the important thing is radiance not manta not octarine u can do the same from the offlane if enemy cant zone u properly id rather be an offlane void with a radiance than a safelane one its just generally better for the team I see where that would be better, because having a Vanguard-Radiance Void as your safelaner feels pretty weird in terms of the kind of damage you usually get out of the safelane these days, and the playstyle seems to fit an offlaner better. Still, banking on the reliability of offlane farm seems risky. As strong as Void is with a few levels, he's pretty limited in the first two or three and susceptible to being zoned. I suppose you can buy Talon at that point and just get your levels/farm that way until you are strong enough to lane, but it's definitely not great if you're trying to get Radiance at a decent timing. I'm definitely more interested in playing him safelane though, personally. I did Vanguard-Radiance but at that point I felt like I just needed more damage. That's why I was questioning the idea Waga is trying to sell in the video (that he posted today) of buying Manta/Octarine. It makes sense that the build has moved away from that, and it also makes sense that he didn't talk about it, either! ive played 6 offlane and 1 safelane void games (at high7k) this patch i think i went radiance in 4 of them and utility in 3 of them won all void is just a broken hero regardless of build also radiance doesnt need to have a decent timing any radiance is good idk where this misconception of if u dont finish radiance early then its bad comes from.... maybe thats true like 10 patches ago when burn dmg was only 35 and it had no miss aura and dmg was 60 instead of 65
Just curious, did you still build vanguard? Like, I get it, but it just feel so awkward.
|
On April 09 2016 00:10 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 22:31 ChunderBoy wrote:On April 08 2016 22:30 yamato77 wrote:On April 08 2016 22:15 ChunderBoy wrote:On April 08 2016 22:02 yamato77 wrote:So as a resident Void picker who used to love playing him safelane carry, I've been quite disheartened with his apparent relegation to the offlane. Buying blink-vlads every game is not what I feel is at the heart of this hero, yet many players saw it as the only viable option in games for quite some time. However, as many of you have been attempting to iterate on builds in this thread, I thought I would open a discussion on the newest fad in safelane Void brought to you by the newly minted 8000 MMR player, Wagamama. + Show Spoiler [The Build] +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2GLVcZfT3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OXVevx4EUU Essentially, the build is broken down simply. Early game, you buy aquila, treads, quelling, and vanguard in some order. In the videos, Waga says to start stout/ring/tango/salve but as with any starting build it's adaptable to what you want to do. Once you have most of these items, your lane pressure goes way up because you're insanely tanky and it's difficult for any non-burst hero to kill you without at least one other hero's assistance and chain stuns. You are fairly static in general in pushing the lane, but your sustainability is quite high so you generally farm the next part of the build fairly quickly. The next part of this build is somewhat odd, and may only be a product of the item itself being slightly overpowered, but Waga recommends that you buy Radiance. It makes sense, given the miss chance and the increase in farm rate. The only downside to this item that Waga touches on is that you still don't really have an amazing ability to solo-kill heros in Chrono, but with an appropriate line-up this isn't an issue as the build is a teamfight build primarily. The playstyle with this build can be highly aggressive, gated only by the cooldown on Timewalk and your personal ability as a player to outplay with it combined with Time Dilation. At this point, the only thing that really kills you is chain stuns/silences and high burst damage. You theoretically could buy BKB at this stage but that item offers very little other than the obviously strong active, but then you'd be limited by its uptime which only becomes worse as the game goes on. Unless you absolutely cannot avoid their (counter)engage (like a blink tide for example), you probably shouldn't buy it. Instead, Waga recommends buying Manta Style which removes your problem with silence and lets you outplay certain stuns, and gives you beneficial stats to boot. It also opens up the radiance/manta shenanigans with wave pushing that further accelerates your farm. Next, Waga says he generally buys Octarine, but this is the point where I have to question if there aren't better alternatives. Certainly, the Octarine allows you to continue to increase in tankiness and gives you yet more Time Walks, Dilations, and Manta illusions to play around with in any given scenario, but there are other needs to consider at this stage in the game that you might have to address. Often, it becomes necessary that you are able to solo kill heros in Chronosphere in the lategame, and there are many damage items all with their own situational uses that allow you to do this. There are arguments for Moon Shard, Butterfly, Mjollnir, Assault Cuirass, MKB, and even Daedalus in different scenarios. In this way, Void acts like the more classic carry he was known to be, a role he still has to fulfill if picked in the safelane on occasion. Waga mentions that OD still makes your life miserable, and with his current prevalence in pubs it is best that you not first pick this hero lest you be made very sad. I would also add that Beastmaster is another meta-relevant hero to consider attempting to avoid, as Roar is a chain-stun enabling sort of spell that Void cannot avoid, making solo farming less safe throughout the game and teamfights much more dangerous, even with the tankiness of the build. Generally, anything that removes Void's ability to abuse the short cooldown on Timewalk significantly hampers this hero. All that said, this build is strong at pretty much all stages of the game. Void's current laning is quite good and once you have a maxed Timewalk and your Vanguard, there really isn't a lull in the strength of the build unless your team falls behind and it becomes difficult to farm Radiance quickly. Thankfully, Void's Chronosphere is a tool that allows you to simply remove a single scary hero with some reliability in most line-ups so there is always the chance to turn a lost lane into a fed spree later in the game. I'd like some discussion on the merits of this build, in particular if perhaps it only appears to be effective because the holy trinity of Radiance/Manta/Octarine is just an overtuned combination, and if there are any alternatives to some of the core items such as Manta being replaced by SnY and Octarine being replaced by any sort of item that is generally accepted to be good on the hero. waga and other void pickers stopped buying octarine and manta every game the important thing is radiance not manta not octarine u can do the same from the offlane if enemy cant zone u properly id rather be an offlane void with a radiance than a safelane one its just generally better for the team I see where that would be better, because having a Vanguard-Radiance Void as your safelaner feels pretty weird in terms of the kind of damage you usually get out of the safelane these days, and the playstyle seems to fit an offlaner better. Still, banking on the reliability of offlane farm seems risky. As strong as Void is with a few levels, he's pretty limited in the first two or three and susceptible to being zoned. I suppose you can buy Talon at that point and just get your levels/farm that way until you are strong enough to lane, but it's definitely not great if you're trying to get Radiance at a decent timing. I'm definitely more interested in playing him safelane though, personally. I did Vanguard-Radiance but at that point I felt like I just needed more damage. That's why I was questioning the idea Waga is trying to sell in the video (that he posted today) of buying Manta/Octarine. It makes sense that the build has moved away from that, and it also makes sense that he didn't talk about it, either! ive played 6 offlane and 1 safelane void games (at high7k) this patch i think i went radiance in 4 of them and utility in 3 of them won all void is just a broken hero regardless of build also radiance doesnt need to have a decent timing any radiance is good idk where this misconception of if u dont finish radiance early then its bad comes from.... maybe thats true like 10 patches ago when burn dmg was only 35 and it had no miss aura and dmg was 60 instead of 65 Just curious, did you still build vanguard? Like, I get it, but it just feel so awkward.
i get vlads or vanguard
|
SoCal8910 Posts
ive been leaning towards utility void with vlads, agha, blink (not necessarily in that order) and then whatever else the team needs.
I have not played him carry yet this patch IIRC
as an offlaner, he is disgusting at bullying passive 1v2 lanes. you can really do a number on some lineups.
|
Had a couple fun games and a couple bad ones. Gotta remember that he really doesn't do great phys damage lategame anymore, MoM can still be good, Vang/Vlad/Agha/Radi are much better on him than Echo, Daed, Desi
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
ofc u dont do dmg on him with vanguard vlads aghs and radiance
|
United States15275 Posts
The Time Lock rework lowered his DPS cap by ~3.75 per hit. Which is...meaningless.
|
what do u think about echo sabre on this hero
|
I think it's a bit outclassed by linkens tbh. It's not terribad, but it just feels less impactful and void doesn't need the harder mana fix.
|
Echo sabre is best on heros that need some extra burst for their combo or have extremly high attack damage:
Tiny->ava/toss
Slark->pounce/dark
Sven->blink/stun/double attack
Lifestealer->infest damage
Void has zero burst and average right click damage. The damage comes most of the time from your team mates. So attacking twice doesn't make that big of a differents.
But it has nice stats and you can get a bash of the extra attack. So its not a bad item on him, but i think there a better items for void.
|
I would only consider it over raw attack speed (e.g. Yasha) if I need the extra strength to avoid dying to magical burst during a chainstun.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
