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On June 05 2014 10:45 Dead9 wrote:
haunt cd is pretty long and spec never really wants to fight w/o it anyway
the biggest weakness of refresh is if the opposing team just avoids teamfights altogether
If that is a problem, then it is a generic problem for spectre, and not isolated to refresher route. The weakness of this build is that you cannot be in the front line as spectre. But this shouldn't even be a problem because if you are going refresher, your team should be built around it. There should be other front line heroes capable of getting towers.
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Did i say anything about haunt having a short cd? You cant play heroes purely around their ultimate, thats not how the game works.
if you honestly think refresher is a good item on spec keep builiding it. dont blame anyone when your teammates report you for throwing.
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On June 05 2014 10:56 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Did i say anything about haunt having a short cd? You cant play heroes purely around their ultimate, thats not how the game works.
if you honestly think refresher is a good item on spec keep builiding it. dont blame anyone when your teammates report you for throwing.
Would a team fight with Black Hole on CD?
Would a team fight with Ravage on CD?
Then why should a team fight when Haunt is on CD?
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On June 05 2014 11:04 NexUmbra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 10:56 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Did i say anything about haunt having a short cd? You cant play heroes purely around their ultimate, thats not how the game works.
if you honestly think refresher is a good item on spec keep builiding it. dont blame anyone when your teammates report you for throwing. Would a team fight with Black Hole on CD? Would a team fight with Ravage on CD? Then why should a team fight when Haunt is on CD?
Those heroes are not cores... and enemys always push when those big spells are on cd.... Im done here, clearly our understanding of the game is not on the same level.
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On June 05 2014 10:56 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Did i say anything about haunt having a short cd? You cant play heroes purely around their ultimate, thats not how the game works.
if you honestly think refresher is a good item on spec keep builiding it. dont blame anyone when your teammates report you for throwing.
What exactly do you propose doing with spectre when haunt is on CD? At least tide/enigma/mag can do some things outside of their ulti, but you still do not take fights when its on CD.
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Sometimes you are forced to take fights when you don't want to.
A normal spectre can still tank and click things even without haunt, especially when she has 2-3 major items. A refresher spec does literally nothing with 12k gold if her stuff is down.
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and obviously that's a weakness of refresh, but you're seriously underestimating the damage output of the item
naked radi + refresher spec does like 1k+ post-mitigation damage to their entire team on double ulti without even haunting in
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I'm not underestimating it at all, I'm sure it wins teamfights.
The problem is that it sinks all of your team's networth into a hero that cannot engage in two successive teamfights.
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if you win a teamfight you pretty much dictate the pace of the game for at least the next minute or two
you don't even need to fight twice in a row, it's not like you need to force rax immediately on spec
you don't beat radi refresh spec by teamfighting, you beat it by avoiding teamfights altogether
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On June 05 2014 10:49 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 09:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd. Its not like haunt has such a short CD, that you can use haunt often. Fights with spectre are taken when haunt is off CD, which every 120s. An additional 40s in this context isn't the worst thing. If haunt was spammable, it may make more sense to buff your individual haunt output instead. Anyway there's nothing much a spectre can do outside of haunt. You're just farming.
This is wrong, spectre is a very relevant fighter midgame if built with this in mind Phase boots, drum, vit booster, diffusal (optional orb of venom before you finish it). You're mistakening progames who draft her with 4 protects 1 in mind and pubs where you often have to come online way faster and are far from having a guaranteed freefarm lane.
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Specter is relevant with only phase/bracer/pms/stick if you maxed dagger first
Honestly I had doubts about radiance/refresher but i lost only a single game when i got it
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On June 05 2014 17:10 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 10:49 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 09:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd. Its not like haunt has such a short CD, that you can use haunt often. Fights with spectre are taken when haunt is off CD, which every 120s. An additional 40s in this context isn't the worst thing. If haunt was spammable, it may make more sense to buff your individual haunt output instead. Anyway there's nothing much a spectre can do outside of haunt. You're just farming. This is wrong, spectre is a very relevant fighter midgame if built with this in mind Phase boots, drum, vit booster, diffusal (optional orb of venom before you finish it). You're mistakening progames who draft her with 4 protects 1 in mind and pubs where you often have to come online way faster and are far from having a guaranteed freefarm lane.
So you want to be moving around and ganking with spectre? Maybe you could be farming a little more aggressively, but you shouldn't be getting easy solo kills with spectre with your suggested build.
The point is that regardless of which build you go for, spectre is likely to return to farming until her haunt is off CD.
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On June 05 2014 18:23 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 17:10 nojok wrote:On June 05 2014 10:49 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 09:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd. Its not like haunt has such a short CD, that you can use haunt often. Fights with spectre are taken when haunt is off CD, which every 120s. An additional 40s in this context isn't the worst thing. If haunt was spammable, it may make more sense to buff your individual haunt output instead. Anyway there's nothing much a spectre can do outside of haunt. You're just farming. This is wrong, spectre is a very relevant fighter midgame if built with this in mind Phase boots, drum, vit booster, diffusal (optional orb of venom before you finish it). You're mistakening progames who draft her with 4 protects 1 in mind and pubs where you often have to come online way faster and are far from having a guaranteed freefarm lane. So you want to be moving around and ganking with spectre? Maybe you could be farming a little more aggressively, but you shouldn't be getting easy solo kills with spectre with your suggested build. The point is that regardless of which build you go for, spectre is likely to return to farming until her haunt is off CD.
So let's compare drum + vitbooster on spectre and 3K gold no item. I hope you get the point now...
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On June 05 2014 19:03 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 18:23 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 17:10 nojok wrote:On June 05 2014 10:49 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 09:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd. Its not like haunt has such a short CD, that you can use haunt often. Fights with spectre are taken when haunt is off CD, which every 120s. An additional 40s in this context isn't the worst thing. If haunt was spammable, it may make more sense to buff your individual haunt output instead. Anyway there's nothing much a spectre can do outside of haunt. You're just farming. This is wrong, spectre is a very relevant fighter midgame if built with this in mind Phase boots, drum, vit booster, diffusal (optional orb of venom before you finish it). You're mistakening progames who draft her with 4 protects 1 in mind and pubs where you often have to come online way faster and are far from having a guaranteed freefarm lane. So you want to be moving around and ganking with spectre? Maybe you could be farming a little more aggressively, but you shouldn't be getting easy solo kills with spectre with your suggested build. The point is that regardless of which build you go for, spectre is likely to return to farming until her haunt is off CD. So let's compare drum + vitbooster on spectre and 3K gold no item. I hope you get the point now...
OK so what do you propose a drum vit diffusal spec to be doing when haunt is on CD?
I'm not attacking your build in anyway. Aside from that i think its a way overkill in HP before diffusal, it is a valid route to opt for.
The suggestion is an early refresher. Preferably it would come after radiance, but after diffusal is fine albeit inferior. Many are against it because it is totally against cookie cutter spectre play, and I can understand it. Many are used to playing spectre as a tanky carry, but this suggestion is a glass cannon one.
The train of thought is simple. We all know how much free damage an itemless spectre can deal in haunt due to desolate. Getting tank items would not boost the damage, but getting radiance or diffusal will by quite a bit. Refresher means that you can use haunt twice in a fight, which means twice of this free damage. Your team just needs to finish the rest of the job. Although stat items right after radiance would boost your haunt output too, its nowhere near what a double haunt can do to the entire enemy team.
After which you continue buffing your haunt output with eblades, butterfly or manta. Basically just ability items. But you hardly even come to this stage anyway, because very few heroes can handle a relatively early double haunt. You pretty much win every teamfights with just 3 clicks from anywhere in the map.
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On June 05 2014 20:52 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 19:03 nojok wrote:On June 05 2014 18:23 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 17:10 nojok wrote:On June 05 2014 10:49 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 09:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd. Its not like haunt has such a short CD, that you can use haunt often. Fights with spectre are taken when haunt is off CD, which every 120s. An additional 40s in this context isn't the worst thing. If haunt was spammable, it may make more sense to buff your individual haunt output instead. Anyway there's nothing much a spectre can do outside of haunt. You're just farming. This is wrong, spectre is a very relevant fighter midgame if built with this in mind Phase boots, drum, vit booster, diffusal (optional orb of venom before you finish it). You're mistakening progames who draft her with 4 protects 1 in mind and pubs where you often have to come online way faster and are far from having a guaranteed freefarm lane. So you want to be moving around and ganking with spectre? Maybe you could be farming a little more aggressively, but you shouldn't be getting easy solo kills with spectre with your suggested build. The point is that regardless of which build you go for, spectre is likely to return to farming until her haunt is off CD. So let's compare drum + vitbooster on spectre and 3K gold no item. I hope you get the point now... OK so what do you propose a drum vit diffusal spec to be doing when haunt is on CD? I'm not attacking your build in anyway. Aside from that i think its a way overkill in HP before diffusal, it is a valid route to opt for. The suggestion is an early refresher. Preferably it would come after radiance, but after diffusal is fine albeit inferior. Many are against it because it is totally against cookie cutter spectre play, and I can understand it. Many are used to playing spectre as a tanky carry, but this suggestion is a glass cannon one. The train of thought is simple. We all know how much free damage an itemless spectre can deal in haunt due to desolate. Getting tank items would not boost the damage, but getting radiance or diffusal will by quite a bit. Refresher means that you can use haunt twice in a fight, which means twice of this free damage. Your team just needs to finish the rest of the job. Although stat items right after radiance would boost your haunt output too, its nowhere near what a double haunt can do to the entire enemy team. After which you continue buffing your haunt output with eblades, butterfly or manta. Basically just ability items. But you hardly even come to this stage anyway, because very few heroes can handle a relatively early double haunt. You pretty much win every teamfights with just 3 clicks from anywhere in the map.
The goal is to be a frontliner and take objectives, it's a defensive/snowball build. I agree your build is good, I disagree it's an autowin build in pubs unless you last pick spectre and your teams plays has a good 4 protects 1. Many heroes can get rid of illusions pretty fast if they can allow to put their spells on CD. You take for granteed to get radiance + refresher at a decent time while not even using a good radiance timing if you go oblivion staff + perseverance. It has huge weaknesses. At level 16 without any HP buffer it's 1K HP illusions who takes 100% bonus damage, even dispersion will not do that much to extend their live.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 05 2014 21:23 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 20:52 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 19:03 nojok wrote:On June 05 2014 18:23 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 17:10 nojok wrote:On June 05 2014 10:49 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 09:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd. Its not like haunt has such a short CD, that you can use haunt often. Fights with spectre are taken when haunt is off CD, which every 120s. An additional 40s in this context isn't the worst thing. If haunt was spammable, it may make more sense to buff your individual haunt output instead. Anyway there's nothing much a spectre can do outside of haunt. You're just farming. This is wrong, spectre is a very relevant fighter midgame if built with this in mind Phase boots, drum, vit booster, diffusal (optional orb of venom before you finish it). You're mistakening progames who draft her with 4 protects 1 in mind and pubs where you often have to come online way faster and are far from having a guaranteed freefarm lane. So you want to be moving around and ganking with spectre? Maybe you could be farming a little more aggressively, but you shouldn't be getting easy solo kills with spectre with your suggested build. The point is that regardless of which build you go for, spectre is likely to return to farming until her haunt is off CD. So let's compare drum + vitbooster on spectre and 3K gold no item. I hope you get the point now... OK so what do you propose a drum vit diffusal spec to be doing when haunt is on CD? I'm not attacking your build in anyway. Aside from that i think its a way overkill in HP before diffusal, it is a valid route to opt for. The suggestion is an early refresher. Preferably it would come after radiance, but after diffusal is fine albeit inferior. Many are against it because it is totally against cookie cutter spectre play, and I can understand it. Many are used to playing spectre as a tanky carry, but this suggestion is a glass cannon one. The train of thought is simple. We all know how much free damage an itemless spectre can deal in haunt due to desolate. Getting tank items would not boost the damage, but getting radiance or diffusal will by quite a bit. Refresher means that you can use haunt twice in a fight, which means twice of this free damage. Your team just needs to finish the rest of the job. Although stat items right after radiance would boost your haunt output too, its nowhere near what a double haunt can do to the entire enemy team. After which you continue buffing your haunt output with eblades, butterfly or manta. Basically just ability items. But you hardly even come to this stage anyway, because very few heroes can handle a relatively early double haunt. You pretty much win every teamfights with just 3 clicks from anywhere in the map. The goal is to be a frontliner and take objectives, it's a defensive/snowball build. I agree your build is good, I disagree it's an autowin build in pubs unless you last pick spectre and your teams plays has a good 4 protects 1. Many heroes can get rid of illusions pretty fast if they can allow to put their spells on CD. You take for granteed to get radiance + refresher at a decent time while not even using a good radiance timing if you go oblivion staff + perseverance. It has huge weaknesses. At level 16 without any HP buffer it's 1K HP illusions who takes 100% bonus damage, even dispersion will not do that much to extend their live.
Radiance-Refresher (that order exactly, radiance is higher impact on spec than about any other item) timing is pre-30 minutes in 90% of games and pre-35 in hard ones. Also, at lvl16 without any HP buffer those are illusions that are scattered across the whole enemy line-up, on whom you cannot afford to waste nukes on since they die in 7 seconds anyways and they are still tanky enough to eat some of the strongest lvl16 AoE nukes. So in the end, enemy either is forced to waste ~500 post-reduction worth of damage on illusion that would die 3 seconds later and do it again on 2nd haunt (and if enemy is dropping stuff on illusions, who is dealing with other 4?). So essentially, if you do get rad-rfo in respectable time, it is auto-win build most of the time. Getting there, however, is hard.
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I wouldn't say its an auto win build considering that you require a good radiance timing. After which, its pretty darn strong to go for refresher next, because of the sheer damage output that very few heroes can endure at that stage.
Of course given the glass cannon nature of the build, you need heroes to do the front line duties as well as taking towers. Your job is just to farm and win teamfights with just 3 clicks.
Again this goes against intuition, which is why its hard to be accepted by players too used to standard style.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
900 gold short. Goddammit, rfo so expensive when you have like 0.00003 GPM.
EDIT: Either way, to keep this more on topic, while Rad-RFO is probably best possible build, what about stuff like manta-skadi (generally for messing around with midgame stuff in point booster and yasha into 2/6 luxuries as 1st 2 items) into casual manfighting stuff like basher, bfly and satanic?
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On June 06 2014 00:16 DucK- wrote:
I wouldn't say its an auto win build considering that you require a good radiance timing. After which, its pretty darn strong to go for refresher next, because of the sheer damage output that very few heroes can endure at that stage.
Of course given the glass cannon nature of the build, you need heroes to do the front line duties as well as taking towers. Your job is just to farm and win teamfights with just 3 clicks.
Again this goes against intuition, which is why its hard to be accepted by players too used to standard style.
The problem I have with it is that I will hardly ever be able to farm a Radiance, never mind another 5k gold item directly afterwards, without buying some sort of survivability. Otherwise, if I get ganked, I die really easily.
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EPT
