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Lalalaland34491 Posts
Just as higher states of energy seek a lower level, the Spectre known as Mercurial is a being of intense and violent energy who finds herself irresistibly drawn to scenes of strife as they unfold in the physical world. While her normal spectral state transcends sensory limitations, each time she takes on a physical manifestation, she is stricken by a loss of self—though not of purpose. In the clash of combat, her identity shatters and reconfigures, and she begins to regain awareness. She grasps that she is Mercurial the Spectre—and that all of her Haunts are but shadows of the one true Spectre. Focus comes in the struggle for survival; her true mind reasserts itself; until in the final moments of victory or defeat, she transcends matter and is restored once more to her eternal form.
For abilities, stats, and other information, visit this hero's Liquipedia page here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Spectre
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as i already posted in the GD thread:
yango can you enlighten me about spectre skill builds? whats the reason to not max dagger by lvl 7 and if someone does that will the dagger be maxed later on or will it stay at lvl 1?
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if you don't max dagger by 7 ill find you and will hurt your feelings
theres almost no reason to not go 4-2-0-1 at lvl 7
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On May 12 2014 19:42 Erasme wrote:
if you don't max dagger by 7 ill find you and will hurt your feelings
theres almost no reason to not go 4-2-0-1 at lvl 7
i totally agree. the only reason that i can think of is the scaling of spectral dagger
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Well you have to remember that it gives you a speed buff and a slow to your target and it's your only nuke early on
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yeah max ur dagger first pretty much always
if you have a ton of disables on your team and your opponents don't have a lot of disables desolate does more damage and you can go 2401 -> 4412. but it's usually safer to max dagger first anyway
4111 is pretty legit too if you're getting hit a lot
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Dagger = more desolate hits on fleeing enemies
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I usually start out with 1/1/1 for the value points. Depending on the situation, I often times find myself ending up with a drums 1/4/4 build if our team is pressured early on.
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So phase and not max dagger or treads oov and max dagger? Or max dagger regardless? Every time I play this hero I'm not sure which to do.
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United States47024 Posts
Usually you should be going Phase regardless, Treads are only acceptable for a really passive game tempo as lategame Treads are somewhat better.
Dagger ranks 2-4 give a lot of value per-point. People point to the low rank 4 damage on the skill, but the per-rank gain is quite good. 50 damage and improved MS/slow per rank on a long-range skill with decent AoE is very acceptable per-rank gain. It's the first rank that has low damage because 50 damage on rank 1 is rather unimpressive, as is 5% slow/speed. The first rank is the WEAKEST rank.
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So in a pub game is it ever worth it to try and make it to Radiance? Every time I've tried it's been like 10 minutes late, or I just end up going drums + diffusal instead.
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If you do actually get there in a decent time radiance spectre absolutely wrecks pubs from my expierence.
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On May 15 2014 04:24 Fencar wrote:
So in a pub game is it ever worth it to try and make it to Radiance? Every time I've tried it's been like 10 minutes late, or I just end up going drums + diffusal instead.
Im not a pro. Far from it. I'll got 4200 solo rating, but Spectre is my most played and my favorite hero by far. I have played him 247 times wiith 61% win rate (my second most hero have 114 games played) and I always try to get a radiance if possible. I do get it somewhat late from time to time. But when I do get it and the game aint going to hell alredy I can normaly catch up on the farm pretty well, since when rad is up you start getting really easy and fast farm. But if you know you wont be able to farm a rad because of your lane being shit I normally get a vanguard (if I get harassed alot in the lane) - diffu - manta. It happends from time to time that I get drums or blade mail. Depends on the game of course : )
Hope it helps a little atleast. 
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On May 12 2014 19:42 Erasme wrote:
if you don't max dagger by 7 ill find you and will hurt your feelings
theres almost no reason to not go 4-2-0-1 at lvl 7
Just as there is almost no reason to not go 1-4-1-1 or 2-4-0-1 at lvl7 and max dagger next. Maxed desolate actually raises chance to get accidental kill steal from haunt, that is the only real reason to use haunt in early game.
On May 12 2014 21:40 Demand2k wrote:
I usually start out with 1/1/1 for the value points. Depending on the situation, I often times find myself ending up with a drums 1/4/4 build if our team is pressured early on.
IIRC points in dispersion past lvl1 are less effective survivability wise than point of stats until much later on. There is literally 0 reason to get lvl2 dispersion before lvl12.
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On May 15 2014 07:56 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 19:42 Erasme wrote:
if you don't max dagger by 7 ill find you and will hurt your feelings
theres almost no reason to not go 4-2-0-1 at lvl 7 Just as there is almost no reason to not go 1-4-1-1 or 2-4-0-1 at lvl7 and max dagger next. Maxed desolate actually raises chance to get accidental kill steal from haunt, that is the only real reason to use haunt in early game. Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 21:40 Demand2k wrote:
I usually start out with 1/1/1 for the value points. Depending on the situation, I often times find myself ending up with a drums 1/4/4 build if our team is pressured early on. IIRC points in dispersion past lvl1 are less effective survivability wise than point of stats until much later on. There is literally 0 reason to get lvl2 dispersion before lvl12.
Pretty much this.
In pubs it doesn't matter what skill build you are going because of pubs and poor coordination of your mates, but if you are playing higher level DotA with your friends, captains mode etc, it is much better to max Desolate first.
You are hero with very low mana pool, you won't be "nuking" enemy heroes with your first, and 200 magic damage on level 4 spell is terrible anyway. You will hardly chase some hero alone, and if you do, your level 2 dagger with Phaseboots will be more than enough to catch him, while with level 3-4 Desolate you will literally need 3-4 hits to kill him.
Maxing Desolate first also means that you can kill something with ulti and support of your mates without having to teleport to that enemy, you can just keep farming on your safe lane, or when your mates gank someone on your lane with stuns/slows, you won't even need to waste mana on Dagger.
I've also played Spectre a lot, and I must say that I've tried many builds. Depending on the situation, I've found 3-3-0-1 or 2-4-0-1 the most useful so far if you weren't ganked/harassed a ton early game, picking 1 point in Dispersion instead of Dagger makes sense if you have a bit tough early game, but I've never needed maxed Dagger, it is just a waste of points that early in the game because you won't be using it much with how little mana Spectre has.
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Max desolate first. Extra points of dispersion should never be put before level 12. Stats can even be gotten over extra levels of it.
Boots RoH -> radiance -> RFO -> eblade/manta/diffusal/butterfly/bot etc. Skadi is situational. Heart is not needed.
Once you get past the barrier or mentality of spectre being a tank aoe frontline hero, will you be able to appreciate the power of glass cannon double haunt.
Its the same thing as sof ember. The build is against the usual intuition, but its the superior build.
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On May 15 2014 04:24 Fencar wrote:
So in a pub game is it ever worth it to try and make it to Radiance? Every time I've tried it's been like 10 minutes late, or I just end up going drums + diffusal instead.
It depends on your team really. If they understand that you are going to be split pushing and don't force stupid 4 vs 5 team fights all the time and die you should be ok.
But usually (well at my low level) people just want to team fight non-stop from the 15 minute mark so in situations like that its best to get fighting items like phase, drums. Otherwise the enemy carry will get fatter than you ever could by getting fed kills and your team will just constantly flame at you for not joining fights.
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Many nooby questions from me:
Do your illusions still get desolate if your main hero is away from allies but your illusions are fighting next to allies?
Typically I would think to avoid maxing desolate first because I assume it would be rare for spectre to be hitting heroes without allies nearby removing the buff, during the early-game/laning-phase anyway. Perhaps I am overestimating the desolate range.
Also DucK how would you use the eblade on this hero? Are you expecting dagger + radiance + eblade damage to drop a support by the time you have it farmed?
edit: I do not understand how desolate work
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Eblade is mostly because it provides the most damage for illusions of any item on spectre. The active is largely secondary.
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On May 15 2014 16:41 kastoob wrote:
Many nooby questions from me:
Do your illusions still get desolate if your main hero is away from allies but your illusions are fighting next to allies?
Typically I would think to avoid maxing desolate first because I assume it would be rare for spectre to be hitting heroes without allies nearby removing the buff, during the early-game/laning-phase anyway. Perhaps I am overestimating the desolate range.
Also DucK how would you use the eblade on this hero? Are you expecting dagger + radiance + eblade damage to drop a support by the time you have it farmed?
Eblade is not used to shotgun. It is used to buff and maximise the damage that your haunt deals. So it is not like morphling where you instantly remove 1 hero. Well actually, the build sort of does it, but on the entire team the moment you press haunt refresh haunt.
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With Refresher and Radiance, don't you maximize damage if you went Haunt + Refresh then wait for illusions to poof then Haunt again?
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On May 15 2014 07:56 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 19:42 Erasme wrote:
if you don't max dagger by 7 ill find you and will hurt your feelings
theres almost no reason to not go 4-2-0-1 at lvl 7 Just as there is almost no reason to not go 1-4-1-1 or 2-4-0-1 at lvl7 and max dagger next. Maxed desolate actually raises chance to get accidental kill steal from haunt, that is the only real reason to use haunt in early game. Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 21:40 Demand2k wrote:
I usually start out with 1/1/1 for the value points. Depending on the situation, I often times find myself ending up with a drums 1/4/4 build if our team is pressured early on. IIRC points in dispersion past lvl1 are less effective survivability wise than point of stats until much later on. There is literally 0 reason to get lvl2 dispersion before lvl12.
Better laning presence, better teamfight presence
and you might want to use haunt early to rejoin a fight with phase/pms
but what do i know you're certainly right
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seriously max dagger most of the time
it's a 12s aoe slow that gives vision
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On May 15 2014 19:07 Caladbolg wrote:
With Refresher and Radiance, don't you maximize damage if you went Haunt + Refresh then wait for illusions to poof then Haunt again?
Yeah, you do. It is still insane how good it is though. Not to mention you want to use it when they have used their mobility skills and commited to teamfight. Suddenly, there are bunch of heroes that are left without escape against illusions. After first haunt, they are either away from creeps enough for 2nd haunt's desolate procs to wreck them, or most of creep wave just died into desolate procs. And yes, desolate radius is actually rather small, so they have to expose themselves to stuff like WL's rocks/RP/Vacuum-Wall-Whatever to not get wrecked by it. Or to press bkbs, but radiance-refresher in the build is usually gotten much before all 5 heroes can afford bkbs.
On May 15 2014 19:32 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 07:56 lolfail9001 wrote:On May 12 2014 19:42 Erasme wrote:
if you don't max dagger by 7 ill find you and will hurt your feelings
theres almost no reason to not go 4-2-0-1 at lvl 7 Just as there is almost no reason to not go 1-4-1-1 or 2-4-0-1 at lvl7 and max dagger next. Maxed desolate actually raises chance to get accidental kill steal from haunt, that is the only real reason to use haunt in early game. On May 12 2014 21:40 Demand2k wrote:
I usually start out with 1/1/1 for the value points. Depending on the situation, I often times find myself ending up with a drums 1/4/4 build if our team is pressured early on. IIRC points in dispersion past lvl1 are less effective survivability wise than point of stats until much later on. There is literally 0 reason to get lvl2 dispersion before lvl12. Better laning presence, better teamfight presence and you might want to use haunt early to rejoin a fight with phase/pms but what do i know you're certainly right
I suppose i should max time walk on void too. It has better laning presence , teamfight presence and stuff too /sarcasm! Also, the only time when you actually reality in as free-farming spec is when you can get a kill, since otherwise it ain't worth it most of the time. Guess what? Max desolate+stuff like OoV and lvl2 dagger secures kills better than mediocre nuke/decent slow with complete phase and mediocre damage in general. Plus, let's be honest here. You delay maxed dagger by 1600 xp, while rising chances of actually getting that 1600 xp faster via illusions accidentally securing a kill (and it is not exactly hard to do it when you remove ~80 hp per hit with each of your illusion chasing lone target).
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Hey, I was wondering your guys thoughts on getting a naked RoH on spec, for sustainability and letting her get extra cs in the jungle. It seems like games that i get a RoH in, i usually end up getting a faster radiance because I never really have to go back to the base. But, I am also a 3500 mmr baddie and usually don't get a support to babysit me. And if you don't get a RoH on her what, if anything do you do for a little passive regen.
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well refresher is built from RoH so you end up getting it anyways so yes you should be getting RoH almost all the time
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ferry a bit of regen
naked roh delays radi by a lot for no real benefit
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On May 15 2014 07:56 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 19:42 Erasme wrote:
if you don't max dagger by 7 ill find you and will hurt your feelings
theres almost no reason to not go 4-2-0-1 at lvl 7 IIRC points in dispersion past lvl1 are less effective survivability wise than point of stats until much later on. There is literally 0 reason to get lvl2 dispersion before lvl12.
If you have no HP/+Str items at all, Disperson max roughly breaks even with rank 1 Disperson+stats at level 7 (it's like .03% of a difference) if you ignore the slight +armor from stats (which is harder for me to model since it becomes 3 variables). If you're having a hard time I think the higher ranks of Dispersion is more damage (it goes from 11.111% of your max HP to ~28%) than the +agi, and whether it's more survivability depends on the game (how much physical damage do they have vs. other types).
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 02 2014 18:44 Dead9 wrote:
ferry a bit of regen
naked roh delays radi by a lot for no real benefit
Future 2nd item refresher? It's not like it is some dead-end item like vanguard or drum.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 02 2014 19:31 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 07:56 lolfail9001 wrote:On May 12 2014 19:42 Erasme wrote:
if you don't max dagger by 7 ill find you and will hurt your feelings
theres almost no reason to not go 4-2-0-1 at lvl 7 IIRC points in dispersion past lvl1 are less effective survivability wise than point of stats until much later on. There is literally 0 reason to get lvl2 dispersion before lvl12. If you have no HP/+Str items at all, Disperson max roughly breaks even with rank 1 Disperson+stats at level 7 (it's like .03% of a difference) if you ignore the slight +armor from stats (which is harder for me to model since it becomes 3 variables). If you're having a hard time I think the higher ranks of Dispersion is more damage (it goes from 11.111% of your max HP to ~28%) than the +agi, and whether it's more survivability depends on the game (how much physical damage do they have vs. other types).
So, essentially question of what you value more, 78 mana and 6 agility or some more survivability when you ARE in battle. Since if bother going for radiance-refresher, i have no real benefit in realitying in to absorb damage, i would rather possible extra hit by illusion... or lower chance for them to get cleared by nukes.
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even if youre going second item refresher you shouldnt get naked roh, it delays radi by like 2 or 3 minutes
drums and vanguard actually help you in ganks/teamfights where you reality in, and spec isnt really starved for slots until way later in the game anyway
edit: also higher ranks of dispersion provide more relative benefit than lower ones except the first level
ie lv 3-> lv 4 is better than lv 1 -> lv 2
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 03 2014 03:29 Dead9 wrote:
even if youre going second item refresher you shouldnt get naked roh, it delays radi by like 2 or 3 minutes
drums and vanguard actually help you in ganks/teamfights where you reality in, and spec isnt really starved for slots until way later in the game anyway
edit: also higher ranks of dispersion provide more relative benefit than lower ones except the first level
ie lv 3-> lv 4 is better than lv 1 -> lv 2
1. I am not saying roh is a must, if you can afford to not get it, don't (also, it still saves up courier time, that can be useful for whatever mid may need), yet if you find yourself needing that regen, by all means, bother considering it.
2. Uhem? 2nd rank provides ~40% more bonus EHP over rank 1 (bonus is the keyword here), while 4th rank only 25% over 3rd.
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1. you can just buy a roh anyway but its pretty much always more efficient to just ferry regen
2. no it doesnt
1.1111, 1.1628, 1.2195, 1.2821
level 1, 2, 3, 4 dispersion
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 03 2014 06:16 Dead9 wrote:
1. you can just buy a roh anyway but its pretty much always more efficient to just ferry regen
2. no it doesnt
1.1111, 1.1628, 1.2195, 1.2821
level 1, 2, 3, 4 dispersion
I said about bonus being keyword.
Bonus of 11%, 16%, 22% and 28%.
So relative, 2nd point gives 50% more than first, while 4th ~25% more than 3rd. That's on bonus.
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i mean i guess thats true but that doesnt really make sense when were talking about whether its good to level dispersion
by 'relative benefit' i meant in terms of raw ehp
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 03 2014 06:28 Dead9 wrote:
i mean i guess thats true but that doesnt really make sense when were talking about whether its good to level dispersion
by 'relative benefit' i meant in terms of raw ehp
Well, either way difference is not THAT much so it all comes down to whether or not you will bother with manfighting people with main spectre.
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Finally had the chance to test out the radiance > refresher build and spectre is my favourite carry after this beside morphling
http://dotabuff.com/matches/697113399
17 min relic 19 min radiance
qb / pms > brown boots > radiance > refresher > yasha > diffusal 2 etc
the item build does not really matter past refresher because it feels like you just automatically win the game at that point if you're not terribly behind.
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It seems like if your team is having any trouble during the early game, you're going to be terribly behind by the time you have radiance, never mind refresher. That's how my games usually go as Spectre, anyway.
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if you cant last hit please please please dont play this hero...
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On June 03 2014 15:31 BlindKill wrote:
if you cant last hit please please please dont play this hero...
If you can't last hit, what's the point in playing any hero?
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On June 03 2014 15:32 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 15:31 BlindKill wrote:
if you cant last hit please please please dont play this hero... If you can't last hit, what's the point in playing any hero?
cuz dota addicting
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I play a lot of spectre games and i find it very strong expecially vs a solo off laner. Usually i start with 1/1/1 then put a second point on dagger and max desolate. I make this cause the mana cost of dagger become expensive so fast. In general i hate radiance spectre, infact i found better build (phase boots first) vanguard+diffusal lv 1+ s&y then transitions into manta and heaven hellbard and diffusal lv 2. Then end with butterfly and replace vanguard with tarrasque. So you can go in the fountain and kill all.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On June 03 2014 15:32 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 15:31 BlindKill wrote:
if you cant last hit please please please dont play this hero... If you can't last hit, what's the point in playing any hero?
Because you gotta start somewhere.
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Heh, learn to last hit on LS then. I usually play it by my lane, it's not uncommon for me to be 3-3-0-1, or 2-4-0-1. I'd say I find 4-2-0-1 to be much less common for me but it depends on whether or not I think I'm going to need to haunt into fights. I need to try out the drums build, but it just feels much inferior to the vanguard. If I get a vanguard its to fight early, or if I am having a difficult lane and have the RoH I will get it. It really helps if you need to spend a good amount of time killing jungle creeps in difficult games. Obviously in a perfect world with perfect CS you should probably skip it in favor of radiance --> casual vit booster --> manta, but I don't find myself in games where that scenario comes up a lot.
How do you guys feel about the midas though? Do you feel at 2k you might as well just save for the quicker relic, or what? It seems a bit safer to me, plus it almost guarantees a 16-18 minute radiance, or a 21 minute vanguard/radiance which is nice.
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No vanguard no drums get urn
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Why urn over vanguard or drums?
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On June 04 2014 06:53 Fencar wrote:
Why urn over vanguard or drums?
Lower cost, some amount of survivability, the ability to always be in fights which means lots of charges which means you can farm 24/7, get to a fight instantly, and then go back to farming without worrying about a fountain trip (similar to a VG but 1/2 the price).
I'm not saying its ideal but there are reasons to consider it.
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United States47024 Posts
Essentially, it supplants RoH for regen. It costs the same, gives strength and mana regeneration, and has somewhat more utility than steady HP regeneration (since you can use it as a nuke or burst healing).
The main caveat or Urn is that you have to be able to find a fight/gank to get those initial 2 charges. Once you do that, you TP back to lane with 2 free salves in hand, and follow the tempo of your ults to get more when you run out. It's really a matter of finding a scenario to pick up the initial 2 charges.
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You should pick this hero when you see an enemy Furion/greedy jungler pick, which telegraphs a solo offlaner in most pubs.
Also very good versus Tinker.
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On June 03 2014 15:08 NeoRussia wrote:Finally had the chance to test out the radiance > refresher build and spectre is my favourite carry after this beside morphling http://dotabuff.com/matches/69711339917 min relic 19 min radiance qb / pms > brown boots > radiance > refresher > yasha > diffusal 2 etc the item build does not really matter past refresher because it feels like you just automatically win the game at that point if you're not terribly behind.
How did silencer get rank 3 ult at level 15?
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On June 04 2014 09:56 B1nary wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 15:08 NeoRussia wrote:Finally had the chance to test out the radiance > refresher build and spectre is my favourite carry after this beside morphling http://dotabuff.com/matches/69711339917 min relic 19 min radiance qb / pms > brown boots > radiance > refresher > yasha > diffusal 2 etc the item build does not really matter past refresher because it feels like you just automatically win the game at that point if you're not terribly behind. How did silencer get rank 3 ult at level 15?
he got 2 levels in a teamfight so the 15th skill leveled up was ult and then leveled stats, it's a display bug.
you can hold all your skill points until level 6 and "get ult at lvl 1" if you want
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On June 04 2014 06:53 Fencar wrote:
Why urn over vanguard or drums?
It is way cheaper than either van or drums. Because you should be interacting early, you should get charges fairly easily. Charges increase your killing potential, and gives you a source of HP regen. Defensively, it gives you some HP.
Speaking of silencer. I once had a multi kill when I double haunt and my teammate double global. Was quite funny.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 04 2014 10:28 DucK- wrote:It is way cheaper than either van or drums. Because you should be interacting early, you should get charges fairly easily. Charges increase your killing potential, and gives you a source of HP regen. Defensively, it gives you some HP. Speaking of silencer. I once had a multi kill when I double haunt and my teammate double global. Was quite funny.
Honestly, the most awkward thing about Urn on Spectre doesn't even have anything to do with how the item is on her--but rather how you getting one makes it awkward for someone ELSE on your team to get one. You often start fights away from your team, so in situations like sieges where your team might use up charges pre-fight to top-up, you might not be there to provide them those urn charges pre-fight when another urn carrier would.
This is in many ways only a big consideration for arranged play though.
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Me and my friends yesterday tried the infamous Spectre, Zeus, AA.. the other 2 were np and tree, because we wanted an all global team. Started not that well, ended with 5 fights won without even engaging.
Fun shit
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On June 04 2014 15:59 FrozenProbe wrote:
Me and my friends yesterday tried the infamous Spectre, Zeus, AA.. the other 2 were np and tree, because we wanted an all global team. Started not that well, ended with 5 fights won without even engaging.
Fun shit
Should've swapped Tree with Mirana. Fun times. It's not even that bad a draft (though you don't have a reliable stun).
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I feel you don't need drums or vanguard just a casual vit booster which will eventually become a heart.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 05 2014 01:47 Jaeger wrote:
I feel you don't need drums or vanguard just a casual vit booster which will eventually become a heart.
Vanguard is bought because you usually are going to need regen unless your supports baby you for an incredibly long time (which is, on the whole damaging for their tempo). Since you are getting the Vit, start with Stout, and want Regen, Vanguard just happens to be a natural extension of that. It makes you fundamentally self-sustaining in lane so that your supports can actually go do things elsewhere on the map and not worry that some offlane hero is going to deny you farm while they're gone.
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Is that really worth it over just ferrying a couple of salves as needed?
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the damage block is pretty substantial early-midgame, especially if you have to hit up the jungle at all
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You're telling me that you should buy a vanguard as a farming item?
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thats not what i said at all lol
you're not getting heart for a while anyway, and the upgrade from stout block to vanguard block is pretty significant
its basically a bonus ~15-20 hp per autoattack
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The thing about not getting a VG/Drums on spectre is that if you don't you have to farm 5150 gold for your first item, without any regen item, without any tank item, without a good escape (dagger is very mediocre for escape), and without any high-impact spells to use in lieu of items (yes you can haunt in but you won't do anythign). You are like a more vulnerable, slower anti-mage. At least AM can blink for safety, has mana burn to harass an opposing solo, and builds ring of health for lane sustain. Plus AM becomes completely self-sufficient at 4350 gold even if the contribution still isn't there till later, he can split push and stuff at least.
Pure vit booster helps all those things a lot less than you'd think, unfortunately.
(yes my gold figures ignore treads/pms/whatever. relax)
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I am embarrassed to say that I've been reading the tooltip for desolate wrong all this while. Gahhhhhhhh....
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im a big fan of qb stout tangos. If you are getting harassed beyond the minimum get roh, tons of harass get pms AND roh. Most people after the roh will assume you are going vanguard and not gank you as heavily. THEN you go for radiance, most of the time they wont realize you are going radiance until you have your relic, and by then its pretty much too late because you can then jungle ect. After the radiance finish your boots.
THEN YOU GO REFRESHER! Refresher is amazing on spectre, double haunt with desolate will do 700 * .75 = 525dmg radiance dmg after resist, along with your desolate attacks its easily 800+ dmg globally, which will get all their supports and glass cannons very low in hp or dead. ALL FROM COMPLETE SAFETY. This isn't even counting double dagger which if you pick a single target is another 300 dmg to a key support/carry. Once you have the radiance and refresher, unless you are already down several sets of rax, or against a team of tons of tanky heroes (and you shouldn't go spec against that kinda lineup) you will win.
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starting with qb on any safelane hero is pretty bad, you should start with items you cant buy at the side shop aka regen. getting vanguard on spec is pretty bad unless you need the regen in a 1v1 matchup vs say a darkseer. Can spec even afford to haunt refresh haunt? desolate doesn't proc if you are near ally units and without more hp items illusion simply die.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 05 2014 01:57 Jaeger wrote:
Is that really worth it over just ferrying a couple of salves as needed?
Considering you're buying the other two components anyway and the cost-effectiveness of the Vanguard combine, is it really worth being obstinate about not buying Vanguard when buying salves barely saves you any gold, ties up the courier repeatedly, lowers your pre-Radiance combat effectiveness by a lot (Vanguard's early combat effectiveness is FAR higher than casual Vit Booster), forces you to play more conservatively in lane because you're not buying an HP regen item so you can't deliberately trade off your regen/damage block, etc?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 05 2014 06:10 HighTimeDotA wrote:
starting with qb on any safelane hero is pretty bad, you should start with items you cant buy at the side shop aka regen. getting vanguard on spec is pretty bad unless you need the regen in a 1v1 matchup vs say a darkseer. Can spec even afford to haunt refresh haunt? desolate doesn't proc if you are near ally units and without more hp items illusion simply die.
You haunt refresh haunt from fountain and at 3rd item: diffusal you already have enough mana pool to do it without returning to base since you are at full mana like always. Also, spectre's illusions with rad-refresher are still tankier than pl's illusions with heart so you kinda underrate their tankiness. And forcing enemy to commit heavy AoE nukes on ILLUSIONS with 6-7 second lifetime is a won teamfight anyways unless you do not have other 4 players on your team.
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I've never seen a spec build a refresher in anything but a stomp. awful item.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 05 2014 06:41 HighTimeDotA wrote:
I've never seen a spec build a refresher in anything but a stomp. awful item.
What exactly is awful? Considering that 80% of spectre's damage comes from haunt and desolate procs (on haunties), going all-in on haunt actually sounds better than investing into stuff like heart.
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something like a butterfly or manta would be miles better.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 05 2014 07:38 HighTimeDotA wrote:
something like a butterfly or manta would be miles better.
For what exactly? Funnily enough, double haunt only does double the damage on singular haunt if enemies are afk. Usually 2nd one does more damage than 1st since on 2nd most of desolate procs happen. Extensions are simple and actually include both bfly and manta.
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manta and refresh are really the only items to go after radi
diffusal and heart are usually pretty awful straight after radi, sometimes they're okay tho
manta does way more single target damage compared to refresh and lets you farm faster and safer
refresh's not bad but it has awful buildup and forces you to rely on teamfights. it also kicks in later than manta
by the time you get radi refresher you should have enough mana to ulti refresh ulti. it actually lines up with lv16 pretty well
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Radiance into refresher really? Rushing 5K+ gold items with awful build ups is not the way to go with any hero. It's just your mates who won the game 4o5 if you had success with this build.
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On June 05 2014 08:39 nojok wrote:
Radiance into refresher really? Rushing 5K+ gold items with awful build ups is not the way to go with any hero. It's just your mates who won the game 4o5 if you had success with this build.
Not really. Think of it from the angle that your main contribution is to deal massive damage with haunt. Using double haunt will pretty much reduce the entire enemy team to low health, unless they have counters like centaur or naga. So you're building spec as a glass cannon concentrating on maximizing your double haunt output. Its not really 4o5 if you are a significant damage dealer. You just need the 4 to clean things up, or survive their initiation.
The reason why many cannot accept thus build is that they are stuck in the mindset that spectre must be built as a tank carry to abuse dispersion. So they opt for items like heart or skadi to survive more. I won't say that its a terrible or wrong way to build her. I'd say that refresher spec is a legitimate alternative build to draft around. A very strong one.
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Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd.
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haunt cd is pretty long and spec never really wants to fight w/o it anyway
the biggest weakness of refresh is if the opposing team just avoids teamfights altogether
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or if they just kill all your towers while u build refresh
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On June 05 2014 09:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd.
Its not like haunt has such a short CD, that you can use haunt often. Fights with spectre are taken when haunt is off CD, which every 120s. An additional 40s in this context isn't the worst thing.
If haunt was spammable, it may make more sense to buff your individual haunt output instead.
Anyway there's nothing much a spectre can do outside of haunt. You're just farming.
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On June 05 2014 10:45 Dead9 wrote:
haunt cd is pretty long and spec never really wants to fight w/o it anyway
the biggest weakness of refresh is if the opposing team just avoids teamfights altogether
If that is a problem, then it is a generic problem for spectre, and not isolated to refresher route. The weakness of this build is that you cannot be in the front line as spectre. But this shouldn't even be a problem because if you are going refresher, your team should be built around it. There should be other front line heroes capable of getting towers.
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Did i say anything about haunt having a short cd? You cant play heroes purely around their ultimate, thats not how the game works.
if you honestly think refresher is a good item on spec keep builiding it. dont blame anyone when your teammates report you for throwing.
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On June 05 2014 10:56 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Did i say anything about haunt having a short cd? You cant play heroes purely around their ultimate, thats not how the game works.
if you honestly think refresher is a good item on spec keep builiding it. dont blame anyone when your teammates report you for throwing.
Would a team fight with Black Hole on CD?
Would a team fight with Ravage on CD?
Then why should a team fight when Haunt is on CD?
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On June 05 2014 11:04 NexUmbra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 10:56 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Did i say anything about haunt having a short cd? You cant play heroes purely around their ultimate, thats not how the game works.
if you honestly think refresher is a good item on spec keep builiding it. dont blame anyone when your teammates report you for throwing. Would a team fight with Black Hole on CD? Would a team fight with Ravage on CD? Then why should a team fight when Haunt is on CD?
Those heroes are not cores... and enemys always push when those big spells are on cd.... Im done here, clearly our understanding of the game is not on the same level.
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On June 05 2014 10:56 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Did i say anything about haunt having a short cd? You cant play heroes purely around their ultimate, thats not how the game works.
if you honestly think refresher is a good item on spec keep builiding it. dont blame anyone when your teammates report you for throwing.
What exactly do you propose doing with spectre when haunt is on CD? At least tide/enigma/mag can do some things outside of their ulti, but you still do not take fights when its on CD.
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Sometimes you are forced to take fights when you don't want to.
A normal spectre can still tank and click things even without haunt, especially when she has 2-3 major items. A refresher spec does literally nothing with 12k gold if her stuff is down.
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and obviously that's a weakness of refresh, but you're seriously underestimating the damage output of the item
naked radi + refresher spec does like 1k+ post-mitigation damage to their entire team on double ulti without even haunting in
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I'm not underestimating it at all, I'm sure it wins teamfights.
The problem is that it sinks all of your team's networth into a hero that cannot engage in two successive teamfights.
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if you win a teamfight you pretty much dictate the pace of the game for at least the next minute or two
you don't even need to fight twice in a row, it's not like you need to force rax immediately on spec
you don't beat radi refresh spec by teamfighting, you beat it by avoiding teamfights altogether
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On June 05 2014 10:49 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 09:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd. Its not like haunt has such a short CD, that you can use haunt often. Fights with spectre are taken when haunt is off CD, which every 120s. An additional 40s in this context isn't the worst thing. If haunt was spammable, it may make more sense to buff your individual haunt output instead. Anyway there's nothing much a spectre can do outside of haunt. You're just farming.
This is wrong, spectre is a very relevant fighter midgame if built with this in mind Phase boots, drum, vit booster, diffusal (optional orb of venom before you finish it). You're mistakening progames who draft her with 4 protects 1 in mind and pubs where you often have to come online way faster and are far from having a guaranteed freefarm lane.
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Specter is relevant with only phase/bracer/pms/stick if you maxed dagger first
Honestly I had doubts about radiance/refresher but i lost only a single game when i got it
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On June 05 2014 17:10 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 10:49 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 09:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd. Its not like haunt has such a short CD, that you can use haunt often. Fights with spectre are taken when haunt is off CD, which every 120s. An additional 40s in this context isn't the worst thing. If haunt was spammable, it may make more sense to buff your individual haunt output instead. Anyway there's nothing much a spectre can do outside of haunt. You're just farming. This is wrong, spectre is a very relevant fighter midgame if built with this in mind Phase boots, drum, vit booster, diffusal (optional orb of venom before you finish it). You're mistakening progames who draft her with 4 protects 1 in mind and pubs where you often have to come online way faster and are far from having a guaranteed freefarm lane.
So you want to be moving around and ganking with spectre? Maybe you could be farming a little more aggressively, but you shouldn't be getting easy solo kills with spectre with your suggested build.
The point is that regardless of which build you go for, spectre is likely to return to farming until her haunt is off CD.
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On June 05 2014 18:23 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 17:10 nojok wrote:On June 05 2014 10:49 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 09:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd. Its not like haunt has such a short CD, that you can use haunt often. Fights with spectre are taken when haunt is off CD, which every 120s. An additional 40s in this context isn't the worst thing. If haunt was spammable, it may make more sense to buff your individual haunt output instead. Anyway there's nothing much a spectre can do outside of haunt. You're just farming. This is wrong, spectre is a very relevant fighter midgame if built with this in mind Phase boots, drum, vit booster, diffusal (optional orb of venom before you finish it). You're mistakening progames who draft her with 4 protects 1 in mind and pubs where you often have to come online way faster and are far from having a guaranteed freefarm lane. So you want to be moving around and ganking with spectre? Maybe you could be farming a little more aggressively, but you shouldn't be getting easy solo kills with spectre with your suggested build. The point is that regardless of which build you go for, spectre is likely to return to farming until her haunt is off CD.
So let's compare drum + vitbooster on spectre and 3K gold no item. I hope you get the point now...
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On June 05 2014 19:03 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 18:23 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 17:10 nojok wrote:On June 05 2014 10:49 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 09:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd. Its not like haunt has such a short CD, that you can use haunt often. Fights with spectre are taken when haunt is off CD, which every 120s. An additional 40s in this context isn't the worst thing. If haunt was spammable, it may make more sense to buff your individual haunt output instead. Anyway there's nothing much a spectre can do outside of haunt. You're just farming. This is wrong, spectre is a very relevant fighter midgame if built with this in mind Phase boots, drum, vit booster, diffusal (optional orb of venom before you finish it). You're mistakening progames who draft her with 4 protects 1 in mind and pubs where you often have to come online way faster and are far from having a guaranteed freefarm lane. So you want to be moving around and ganking with spectre? Maybe you could be farming a little more aggressively, but you shouldn't be getting easy solo kills with spectre with your suggested build. The point is that regardless of which build you go for, spectre is likely to return to farming until her haunt is off CD. So let's compare drum + vitbooster on spectre and 3K gold no item. I hope you get the point now...
OK so what do you propose a drum vit diffusal spec to be doing when haunt is on CD?
I'm not attacking your build in anyway. Aside from that i think its a way overkill in HP before diffusal, it is a valid route to opt for.
The suggestion is an early refresher. Preferably it would come after radiance, but after diffusal is fine albeit inferior. Many are against it because it is totally against cookie cutter spectre play, and I can understand it. Many are used to playing spectre as a tanky carry, but this suggestion is a glass cannon one.
The train of thought is simple. We all know how much free damage an itemless spectre can deal in haunt due to desolate. Getting tank items would not boost the damage, but getting radiance or diffusal will by quite a bit. Refresher means that you can use haunt twice in a fight, which means twice of this free damage. Your team just needs to finish the rest of the job. Although stat items right after radiance would boost your haunt output too, its nowhere near what a double haunt can do to the entire enemy team.
After which you continue buffing your haunt output with eblades, butterfly or manta. Basically just ability items. But you hardly even come to this stage anyway, because very few heroes can handle a relatively early double haunt. You pretty much win every teamfights with just 3 clicks from anywhere in the map.
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On June 05 2014 20:52 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 19:03 nojok wrote:On June 05 2014 18:23 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 17:10 nojok wrote:On June 05 2014 10:49 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 09:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd. Its not like haunt has such a short CD, that you can use haunt often. Fights with spectre are taken when haunt is off CD, which every 120s. An additional 40s in this context isn't the worst thing. If haunt was spammable, it may make more sense to buff your individual haunt output instead. Anyway there's nothing much a spectre can do outside of haunt. You're just farming. This is wrong, spectre is a very relevant fighter midgame if built with this in mind Phase boots, drum, vit booster, diffusal (optional orb of venom before you finish it). You're mistakening progames who draft her with 4 protects 1 in mind and pubs where you often have to come online way faster and are far from having a guaranteed freefarm lane. So you want to be moving around and ganking with spectre? Maybe you could be farming a little more aggressively, but you shouldn't be getting easy solo kills with spectre with your suggested build. The point is that regardless of which build you go for, spectre is likely to return to farming until her haunt is off CD. So let's compare drum + vitbooster on spectre and 3K gold no item. I hope you get the point now... OK so what do you propose a drum vit diffusal spec to be doing when haunt is on CD? I'm not attacking your build in anyway. Aside from that i think its a way overkill in HP before diffusal, it is a valid route to opt for. The suggestion is an early refresher. Preferably it would come after radiance, but after diffusal is fine albeit inferior. Many are against it because it is totally against cookie cutter spectre play, and I can understand it. Many are used to playing spectre as a tanky carry, but this suggestion is a glass cannon one. The train of thought is simple. We all know how much free damage an itemless spectre can deal in haunt due to desolate. Getting tank items would not boost the damage, but getting radiance or diffusal will by quite a bit. Refresher means that you can use haunt twice in a fight, which means twice of this free damage. Your team just needs to finish the rest of the job. Although stat items right after radiance would boost your haunt output too, its nowhere near what a double haunt can do to the entire enemy team. After which you continue buffing your haunt output with eblades, butterfly or manta. Basically just ability items. But you hardly even come to this stage anyway, because very few heroes can handle a relatively early double haunt. You pretty much win every teamfights with just 3 clicks from anywhere in the map.
The goal is to be a frontliner and take objectives, it's a defensive/snowball build. I agree your build is good, I disagree it's an autowin build in pubs unless you last pick spectre and your teams plays has a good 4 protects 1. Many heroes can get rid of illusions pretty fast if they can allow to put their spells on CD. You take for granteed to get radiance + refresher at a decent time while not even using a good radiance timing if you go oblivion staff + perseverance. It has huge weaknesses. At level 16 without any HP buffer it's 1K HP illusions who takes 100% bonus damage, even dispersion will not do that much to extend their live.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 05 2014 21:23 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 20:52 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 19:03 nojok wrote:On June 05 2014 18:23 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 17:10 nojok wrote:On June 05 2014 10:49 DucK- wrote:On June 05 2014 09:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Aight let me burst a bubble here. You realize refresher has a huge ass cd and its basically a worthless item when its on cd. Its not like haunt has such a short CD, that you can use haunt often. Fights with spectre are taken when haunt is off CD, which every 120s. An additional 40s in this context isn't the worst thing. If haunt was spammable, it may make more sense to buff your individual haunt output instead. Anyway there's nothing much a spectre can do outside of haunt. You're just farming. This is wrong, spectre is a very relevant fighter midgame if built with this in mind Phase boots, drum, vit booster, diffusal (optional orb of venom before you finish it). You're mistakening progames who draft her with 4 protects 1 in mind and pubs where you often have to come online way faster and are far from having a guaranteed freefarm lane. So you want to be moving around and ganking with spectre? Maybe you could be farming a little more aggressively, but you shouldn't be getting easy solo kills with spectre with your suggested build. The point is that regardless of which build you go for, spectre is likely to return to farming until her haunt is off CD. So let's compare drum + vitbooster on spectre and 3K gold no item. I hope you get the point now... OK so what do you propose a drum vit diffusal spec to be doing when haunt is on CD? I'm not attacking your build in anyway. Aside from that i think its a way overkill in HP before diffusal, it is a valid route to opt for. The suggestion is an early refresher. Preferably it would come after radiance, but after diffusal is fine albeit inferior. Many are against it because it is totally against cookie cutter spectre play, and I can understand it. Many are used to playing spectre as a tanky carry, but this suggestion is a glass cannon one. The train of thought is simple. We all know how much free damage an itemless spectre can deal in haunt due to desolate. Getting tank items would not boost the damage, but getting radiance or diffusal will by quite a bit. Refresher means that you can use haunt twice in a fight, which means twice of this free damage. Your team just needs to finish the rest of the job. Although stat items right after radiance would boost your haunt output too, its nowhere near what a double haunt can do to the entire enemy team. After which you continue buffing your haunt output with eblades, butterfly or manta. Basically just ability items. But you hardly even come to this stage anyway, because very few heroes can handle a relatively early double haunt. You pretty much win every teamfights with just 3 clicks from anywhere in the map. The goal is to be a frontliner and take objectives, it's a defensive/snowball build. I agree your build is good, I disagree it's an autowin build in pubs unless you last pick spectre and your teams plays has a good 4 protects 1. Many heroes can get rid of illusions pretty fast if they can allow to put their spells on CD. You take for granteed to get radiance + refresher at a decent time while not even using a good radiance timing if you go oblivion staff + perseverance. It has huge weaknesses. At level 16 without any HP buffer it's 1K HP illusions who takes 100% bonus damage, even dispersion will not do that much to extend their live.
Radiance-Refresher (that order exactly, radiance is higher impact on spec than about any other item) timing is pre-30 minutes in 90% of games and pre-35 in hard ones. Also, at lvl16 without any HP buffer those are illusions that are scattered across the whole enemy line-up, on whom you cannot afford to waste nukes on since they die in 7 seconds anyways and they are still tanky enough to eat some of the strongest lvl16 AoE nukes. So in the end, enemy either is forced to waste ~500 post-reduction worth of damage on illusion that would die 3 seconds later and do it again on 2nd haunt (and if enemy is dropping stuff on illusions, who is dealing with other 4?). So essentially, if you do get rad-rfo in respectable time, it is auto-win build most of the time. Getting there, however, is hard.
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I wouldn't say its an auto win build considering that you require a good radiance timing. After which, its pretty darn strong to go for refresher next, because of the sheer damage output that very few heroes can endure at that stage.
Of course given the glass cannon nature of the build, you need heroes to do the front line duties as well as taking towers. Your job is just to farm and win teamfights with just 3 clicks.
Again this goes against intuition, which is why its hard to be accepted by players too used to standard style.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
900 gold short. Goddammit, rfo so expensive when you have like 0.00003 GPM.
EDIT: Either way, to keep this more on topic, while Rad-RFO is probably best possible build, what about stuff like manta-skadi (generally for messing around with midgame stuff in point booster and yasha into 2/6 luxuries as 1st 2 items) into casual manfighting stuff like basher, bfly and satanic?
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On June 06 2014 00:16 DucK- wrote:
I wouldn't say its an auto win build considering that you require a good radiance timing. After which, its pretty darn strong to go for refresher next, because of the sheer damage output that very few heroes can endure at that stage.
Of course given the glass cannon nature of the build, you need heroes to do the front line duties as well as taking towers. Your job is just to farm and win teamfights with just 3 clicks.
Again this goes against intuition, which is why its hard to be accepted by players too used to standard style.
The problem I have with it is that I will hardly ever be able to farm a Radiance, never mind another 5k gold item directly afterwards, without buying some sort of survivability. Otherwise, if I get ganked, I die really easily.
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For those advocating going the phase drums build, quite frankly if you want to have a big impact early in teamfights as a carry, spectre should not be picked. Pretty much every other carry besides medusa and void will do better in that scenario. I only pick spectre against certain lineups (not super tanky, wont be agro trilane, not a push heavy lineup). I personally insure that it's very hard to gank me by having a safelane ward up at all times, because anything more than 1-2 deaths and you are boned. You need to be able to keep your lane frozen, that is incredibly key, many teams will push down your t3, it's imperative that you freeze the lane close to your t2 to make ganking you more unattractive.
If you get a decent radiance (sub 20mins), the road to refresher is very very easy. Just with Radiance and boots you contribute a fair amount of dmg to a teamfight at that point with haunt/dagger/desolate and burn, and you farm very very quickly once radiance is up with the roh giving you sustain.
Try the build please, I too was skeptical until I gave it a try
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I just tried the Rad-refresher build. I have only went refresher orb once on Spectre, but that was when the game alredy was over.
I got my rad before 20 min, I died 3 times, but I got 4 kills and some assists. Was alooooot of fighting early in the game, so was hard to find a place to farm at without having 3-4 ppl that wants your head. I After rad was up farminig the refresher orb was a piece of cake (radiance farming <3). It was a really close game tho, and I think it was decent against the heroes I faced (CM, Sky, Furion, Panda and Weaver). Will try this build again, thats for sure.
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Hey I wanted some peoples opinions. When you are farming really well and you have something like brown boots PMS --> Radiance do you go back for t2 boots like phase/treads? It feels strange. You farm so quickly at that point, I'd rather get a yasha to boost the power of my haunt. Then once I have the yasha, I figure I might as well complete the manta.
Basically, what do you guys think about upgraded boots under no pressure?
http://dotabuff.com/matches/749530176
http://dotabuff.com/matches/733893261
If you want an idea of the games. Basically once you have radiance farm, I feel many other items give you a better gain then upgrading the boots. I think if anything, maybe the treads, but I don't think illusions get the +30IAS (correct me if I'm wrong) so it seems kind of pointless.
EDIT: Tested it, illusions do not get the IAS from treads.
As an aside, on the topic of the RFO discussion, I think a lot of you think spectre is just a haunt. One of the reasons heart is amazing is because dispersion completely destroys teams, while the radiance forces them to deal with you. If the other team has zero strength heroes then it is probably more viable, but in that case they would probably be nuke heavy and heart survivability and dispersion might be just as viable.
It's definitely a fun build though.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 30 2014 13:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Hey I wanted some peoples opinions. When you are farming really well and you have something like brown boots PMS --> Radiance do you go back for t2 boots like phase/treads? It feels strange. You farm so quickly at that point, I'd rather get a yasha to boost the power of my haunt. Then once I have the yasha, I figure I might as well complete the manta. Basically, what do you guys think about upgraded boots under no pressure? http://dotabuff.com/matches/749530176http://dotabuff.com/matches/733893261If you want an idea of the games. Basically once you have radiance farm, I feel many other items give you a better gain then upgrading the boots. I think if anything, maybe the treads, but I don't think illusions get the +30IAS (correct me if I'm wrong) so it seems kind of pointless. EDIT: Tested it, illusions do not get the IAS from treads. As an aside, on the topic of the RFO discussion, I think a lot of you think spectre is just a haunt. One of the reasons heart is amazing is because dispersion completely destroys teams, while the radiance forces them to deal with you. If the other team has zero strength heroes then it is probably more viable, but in that case they would probably be nuke heavy and heart survivability and dispersion might be just as viable. It's definitely a fun build though.
Dispersion does not destroy teams, radiance does, in fact, do the math, on 3k HP spectre dispersion (assuming spectre dies) does approximately 1k HP worth of damage to everyone in melee-300 range that linearly decreases to 0 at 1k range (so approximately 500 damage at ~600 range). Not much, considering that main carry dies. Now, radiance burn for 14 seconds from double haunt does 525 damage, and i did not even include desolate procs that will happen at the very least in 2nd haunt since most of mobility spells were already used and people are more likely to run away and split up than not. So, from damage point of view, radiance-refresher=radiance-heart, difference is that in 2nd case you need to die to do same damage.
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dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: vlads, armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir?
Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason.
Armlet? Meh.
Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange.
Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect.
Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality.
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Radiance refresher is not a fun build. Its a serious alternative build that goes against the intuitive/'standard' way of playing spectre. Its a win-every-teamfight build that of course has its weakness, which is that you need other heroes to be doing the tower hitting etc. Hence this build is not made for every game...
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I kindve feel Radiance is a bit gimmicky. Is their any other use for it other than Haunt for teamfights? I play Spectre more typical carry with Heart Butterfly and I always squash their team as long as I don't die too much in lane (which is quite hard since Dagger is a great getaway tool)
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On June 30 2014 15:21 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote:
I kindve feel Radiance is a bit gimmicky. Is their any other use other than Haunt for teamfights? I play Spectre more typical carry with Heart Butterfly and I always squash their team as long as I don't die too much in lane (which is quite hard)
Nothing else beats radiance in terms of effectiveness etc. You should always aim for it, and settle for inferior items only if its a hard game.
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I've always thought of it as an item you would only get if you have no tide/sk/etc since its only really useful for burn damage from haunt. I honestly avoid getting it like the plague since its build up is forever, it flops late game, and without haunt it does nothing. I honestly feel I do more damage with Diffusal/Heart/Butterfly in team fights as I can 3v5 their team at any point rather than wait for haunt. Is their some pro strat I am not getting?
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United States2186 Posts
On June 30 2014 15:31 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote:
I've always thought of it as an item you would only get if you have no tide/sk/etc since its only really useful for burn damage from haunt. I honestly avoid getting it like the plague since its build up is forever, it flops late game, and without haunt it does nothing. I honestly feel I do more damage with Diffusal/Heart/Butterfly in team fights as I can 3v5 their team at any point rather than wait for haunt. Is their some pro strat I am not getting?
If you look at how fights play out, Radiance does more damage than any other item except a rapier. If enemy supports get behind at all, you will accidentally kill them quite often with a Radiance. Spectre is also one of the worst carry heroes at farming without a radiance, possibly even worse than Chaos Knight. A reasonable Radiance timing can get you 9-10 cs/min by 30-40 min, while you'd be happy with 5 cs/min going Diffusal first. Thus Radiance Spectre is THE lategame item because it gets you the farm to get 6 slotted - plus the damage is still very relevant until 60+ min games with farmed supports. The only time you ever don't get a radiance is if your t3s are under siege and you don't have a relic, because Diffusal will rarely let you comeback the way radiance can. If you go Diffusal on Spectre that's basically saying he was the wrong hero for the game.
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Played Spectre quite a bit and was testing a lot of builds.
To be honest, I didn't like Refresher as second item at all, you just aren't doing enough damage with illusions if you aren't way too much ahead. What works for me so far is to go for Phaseboots, Radiance into Manta/Diffusal or both, and then get Refresher as third/forth item.
My build was changing a lot depending on the game and how much I was harassed and how good my farm was. Last Spectre game I'd played, I had terrible laneing stage, and was ganked a lot, while my team started to die a lot. I went for Vanguard(which I usually disagree with but it is quite situational and here it was very good), Blademail and started to gank with mates. The recover from early game happened when I was farming jungle with just Vanguard, Phase and Magic stick, while my courier was flying to me to give me Blademail. Lina, Ogre and Enigma ganked me, Lina used Eul on me to set up stun and in that moment courier gave me Blademail. When I fell to the ground, I activated it, Ogre and Lina killed themself, I escaped literally with 50 HP and my mates arrived and killed Enigma.
After that I went for Diffusal and Manta and then Refresher(which was like 5th item in this case even though first 2 weren't really big items) and ended up with 20-4 in the end in the game that we were losing.
My conclusion:
-Radiance really is the most important item on Spectre.
-If you didn't get Radiance around minute 25-30 at worst possible scenario, I am not sure you should get it at all.
-If you can't farm Radiance, going for early game ganking builds is worth it, Phase/Treads with Drums/Vang/Blademail(or any combination of these three) are good options. If you aren't going Radiance because of bad early game, you should watch for ganks with these items to make a comeback if possible since your farm will be quite slow without Radiance.
-From my experience in most cases leveling up Desolate first and then Dagger is a lot better than vice versa. Dagger costs a lot of mana, you won't be able to spam it nor farm with it as it deals poor damage anyway. With maxed Desolate your Haunt illusions deal a lot of damage in the early game and can kill someone without a need to reality to them, as moving out of the lane to get one kill in most cases isn't worth it all.
-Refresher is amazing, but as I said, not as second item. If you have solid early game you can get Ring of Health just for the regen, go straight into Radiance and then Manta/Diffusal/Skadi whatever you think is needed for the game and then you can get Refresher as third/forth item.
I disagree with guys saying "if you want to play early game ganking Spectre, you should pick another hero" or something along those lines. It is more like that I am forced to play Spectre like that if I had bad early game, because I have higher chances to win if I get a lot smaller, tanky items and go for ganks then if I try to farm my Radiance and get it around 35-40 minute.
Happened quite a lot in my games and going for Radiance when heavy behind was never a good choice.
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On June 30 2014 13:40 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 13:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Hey I wanted some peoples opinions. When you are farming really well and you have something like brown boots PMS --> Radiance do you go back for t2 boots like phase/treads? It feels strange. You farm so quickly at that point, I'd rather get a yasha to boost the power of my haunt. Then once I have the yasha, I figure I might as well complete the manta. Basically, what do you guys think about upgraded boots under no pressure? http://dotabuff.com/matches/749530176http://dotabuff.com/matches/733893261If you want an idea of the games. Basically once you have radiance farm, I feel many other items give you a better gain then upgrading the boots. I think if anything, maybe the treads, but I don't think illusions get the +30IAS (correct me if I'm wrong) so it seems kind of pointless. EDIT: Tested it, illusions do not get the IAS from treads. As an aside, on the topic of the RFO discussion, I think a lot of you think spectre is just a haunt. One of the reasons heart is amazing is because dispersion completely destroys teams, while the radiance forces them to deal with you. If the other team has zero strength heroes then it is probably more viable, but in that case they would probably be nuke heavy and heart survivability and dispersion might be just as viable. It's definitely a fun build though. Dispersion does not destroy teams, radiance does, in fact, do the math, on 3k HP spectre dispersion (assuming spectre dies) does approximately 1k HP worth of damage to everyone in melee-300 range that linearly decreases to 0 at 1k range (so approximately 500 damage at ~600 range). Not much, considering that main carry dies. Now, radiance burn for 14 seconds from double haunt does 525 damage, and i did not even include desolate procs that will happen at the very least in 2nd haunt since most of mobility spells were already used and people are more likely to run away and split up than not. So, from damage point of view, radiance-refresher=radiance-heart, difference is that in 2nd case you need to die to do same damage.
I did the math, and if we are being honest with ourselves there is many more variables than raw math. I tried inferring it quickly because I had to go to sleep, but 2k damage that you take and dispersion back, is 2k damage your team doesn't take which allows them to be more effectiveness.
Like I said, I think against certain lineups it could probably good, and it is probably overwhelmingly a good 7th item choice. IE: You item max and keep it in the stash.
I think SNY over manta might be viable in it because it will allow you to get more desolate procs. iirc it turns you into max movespeed haunts, while yasha gets you to like 497 or something. So if you are aiming max haunt damage, SNY might be your HP item of choice to give you some tankyness.
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On June 30 2014 19:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Played Spectre quite a bit and was testing a lot of builds.
To be honest, I didn't like Refresher as second item at all, you just aren't doing enough damage with illusions if you aren't way too much ahead. What works for me so far is to go for Phaseboots, Radiance into Manta/Diffusal or both, and then get Refresher as third/forth item.
My build was changing a lot depending on the game and how much I was harassed and how good my farm was. Last Spectre game I'd played, I had terrible laneing stage, and was ganked a lot, while my team started to die a lot. I went for Vanguard(which I usually disagree with but it is quite situational and here it was very good), Blademail and started to gank with mates. The recover from early game happened when I was farming jungle with just Vanguard, Phase and Magic stick, while my courier was flying to me to give me Blademail. Lina, Ogre and Enigma ganked me, Lina used Eul on me to set up stun and in that moment courier gave me Blademail. When I fell to the ground, I activated it, Ogre and Lina killed themself, I escaped literally with 50 HP and my mates arrived and killed Enigma.
After that I went for Diffusal and Manta and then Refresher(which was like 5th item in this case even though first 2 weren't really big items) and ended up with 20-4 in the end in the game that we were losing.
My conclusion:
-Radiance really is the most important item on Spectre.
-If you didn't get Radiance around minute 25-30 at worst possible scenario, I am not sure you should get it at all.
-If you can't farm Radiance, going for early game ganking builds is worth it, Phase/Treads with Drums/Vang/Blademail(or any combination of these three) are good options. If you aren't going Radiance because of bad early game, you should watch for ganks with these items to make a comeback if possible since your farm will be quite slow without Radiance.
-From my experience in most cases leveling up Desolate first and then Dagger is a lot better than vice versa. Dagger costs a lot of mana, you won't be able to spam it nor farm with it as it deals poor damage anyway. With maxed Desolate your Haunt illusions deal a lot of damage in the early game and can kill someone without a need to reality to them, as moving out of the lane to get one kill in most cases isn't worth it all.
-Refresher is amazing, but as I said, not as second item. If you have solid early game you can get Ring of Health just for the regen, go straight into Radiance and then Manta/Diffusal/Skadi whatever you think is needed for the game and then you can get Refresher as third/forth item.
I disagree with guys saying "if you want to play early game ganking Spectre, you should pick another hero" or something along those lines. It is more like that I am forced to play Spectre like that if I had bad early game, because I have higher chances to win if I get a lot smaller, tanky items and go for ganks then if I try to farm my Radiance and get it around 35-40 minute.
Happened quite a lot in my games and going for Radiance when heavy behind was never a good choice.
I think the refresher build is only meant as a straight rush after a fast radiance. Otherwise it's effectiveness diminishes rapidly. IE: a 16-19 minute radiance --> refresher. You can't get a 30 minute radiance then get the refresher because I think it would be too weak then.
As a side note, I think Radiance --> yasha --> refresher is probably the most optimal item path because of the huge bonus you get from any sort of speed boost. I also think treads is probably your boot of choice, particularly if you go the SNY route.
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spectre is only legit to pick and have on your team if you have following. great teamfight/gank/stun/cc presence on your team,other aoe combos with your ult, oldschool aa spec with another global burst dmg, zeus or is powerful, however it all depends on other teams picks, if they go agro tri, you can expect lost game.
spectre is one of the worst carries in the game and she is not even the best carry by far even.
only good part with her is her dagger slows, thru bkb.and her ultimate presence.
You should always bring the fight to spectre if you are against spec, same as io(if possible)
her farming speed is very bad also.
i have always felt that her dispersion been lackluster ability even how praised it is by some players. i would like that she got an activate aoe nuke. that works like echoslams, motivating others to not stand close to eachother for her passive to work better.
but of course not as strong as echo but work around that way.
anyway she has her games where she is great, but she is like that hero you feel somone could have done the same job but better anyway.
Thats why she aint picked, you can smell straight away if a game is lost if a pro team picks spec, other teams picks, and their picks.
for instance alliance when they picked her last TI i knew game was lost right during all picks and bans.
if there is one hero i would suggest anyone to stay away from if they wanna learn a specific hero that is so lackluster in so many ways and easily countered, and limiting your team by a lot. spectre is one of them.
about refresher radiance build, it is really legit, but keep in mind those heroes she is great with this build is also the heroes that a great trilaners against her, cm,veno,lion,lina,lesh and such.
So if you get that fast they are doing somthing wrong or failed miserbly, and you will notice that you cant go this build vs these and forced to skip that radiance. very fast and get a fast diff instead.
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On June 30 2014 21:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 19:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Played Spectre quite a bit and was testing a lot of builds.
To be honest, I didn't like Refresher as second item at all, you just aren't doing enough damage with illusions if you aren't way too much ahead. What works for me so far is to go for Phaseboots, Radiance into Manta/Diffusal or both, and then get Refresher as third/forth item.
My build was changing a lot depending on the game and how much I was harassed and how good my farm was. Last Spectre game I'd played, I had terrible laneing stage, and was ganked a lot, while my team started to die a lot. I went for Vanguard(which I usually disagree with but it is quite situational and here it was very good), Blademail and started to gank with mates. The recover from early game happened when I was farming jungle with just Vanguard, Phase and Magic stick, while my courier was flying to me to give me Blademail. Lina, Ogre and Enigma ganked me, Lina used Eul on me to set up stun and in that moment courier gave me Blademail. When I fell to the ground, I activated it, Ogre and Lina killed themself, I escaped literally with 50 HP and my mates arrived and killed Enigma.
After that I went for Diffusal and Manta and then Refresher(which was like 5th item in this case even though first 2 weren't really big items) and ended up with 20-4 in the end in the game that we were losing.
My conclusion:
-Radiance really is the most important item on Spectre.
-If you didn't get Radiance around minute 25-30 at worst possible scenario, I am not sure you should get it at all.
-If you can't farm Radiance, going for early game ganking builds is worth it, Phase/Treads with Drums/Vang/Blademail(or any combination of these three) are good options. If you aren't going Radiance because of bad early game, you should watch for ganks with these items to make a comeback if possible since your farm will be quite slow without Radiance.
-From my experience in most cases leveling up Desolate first and then Dagger is a lot better than vice versa. Dagger costs a lot of mana, you won't be able to spam it nor farm with it as it deals poor damage anyway. With maxed Desolate your Haunt illusions deal a lot of damage in the early game and can kill someone without a need to reality to them, as moving out of the lane to get one kill in most cases isn't worth it all.
-Refresher is amazing, but as I said, not as second item. If you have solid early game you can get Ring of Health just for the regen, go straight into Radiance and then Manta/Diffusal/Skadi whatever you think is needed for the game and then you can get Refresher as third/forth item.
I disagree with guys saying "if you want to play early game ganking Spectre, you should pick another hero" or something along those lines. It is more like that I am forced to play Spectre like that if I had bad early game, because I have higher chances to win if I get a lot smaller, tanky items and go for ganks then if I try to farm my Radiance and get it around 35-40 minute.
Happened quite a lot in my games and going for Radiance when heavy behind was never a good choice. I think the refresher build is only meant as a straight rush after a fast radiance. Otherwise it's effectiveness diminishes rapidly. IE: a 16-19 minute radiance --> refresher. You can't get a 30 minute radiance then get the refresher because I think it would be too weak then. As a side note, I think Radiance --> yasha --> refresher is probably the most optimal item path because of the huge bonus you get from any sort of speed boost. I also think treads is probably your boot of choice, particularly if you go the SNY route.
I disagree that Refresher is losing effectiveness later in the game, I think that it is just stronger and stronger if the game goes on because of your other items, of course up to the point when you are 6 slotted and when it can't get better than that. But when you have like, Radiance, Manta, Diffusal, Refresher and Etheral Blade/Butterfly(or both), your Illusions are hitting like a truck.
I agree about Radiance -> Yasha -> Refresher, you don't really have to finish whole Manta or S&Y. About fast Radiance into Refresher, it could work but you barely have 700 mana without other items if you just get like Boots, Radiance, Refresher and Magic stick at that point, it could be troublesome if you aren't in base. From my experience, if you go for Radiance and then straight into Refresher, and enemy team with Meka for example decide to push as 5, your Radiance + Refresher isn't doing much and you can't fight them head on because of your poor survivability. And if you've completely crushed them and they barely can afford boots, then it doesn't really matter what items you are going to make after Radiance. :D
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On June 30 2014 21:45 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 21:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 30 2014 19:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Played Spectre quite a bit and was testing a lot of builds.
To be honest, I didn't like Refresher as second item at all, you just aren't doing enough damage with illusions if you aren't way too much ahead. What works for me so far is to go for Phaseboots, Radiance into Manta/Diffusal or both, and then get Refresher as third/forth item.
My build was changing a lot depending on the game and how much I was harassed and how good my farm was. Last Spectre game I'd played, I had terrible laneing stage, and was ganked a lot, while my team started to die a lot. I went for Vanguard(which I usually disagree with but it is quite situational and here it was very good), Blademail and started to gank with mates. The recover from early game happened when I was farming jungle with just Vanguard, Phase and Magic stick, while my courier was flying to me to give me Blademail. Lina, Ogre and Enigma ganked me, Lina used Eul on me to set up stun and in that moment courier gave me Blademail. When I fell to the ground, I activated it, Ogre and Lina killed themself, I escaped literally with 50 HP and my mates arrived and killed Enigma.
After that I went for Diffusal and Manta and then Refresher(which was like 5th item in this case even though first 2 weren't really big items) and ended up with 20-4 in the end in the game that we were losing.
My conclusion:
-Radiance really is the most important item on Spectre.
-If you didn't get Radiance around minute 25-30 at worst possible scenario, I am not sure you should get it at all.
-If you can't farm Radiance, going for early game ganking builds is worth it, Phase/Treads with Drums/Vang/Blademail(or any combination of these three) are good options. If you aren't going Radiance because of bad early game, you should watch for ganks with these items to make a comeback if possible since your farm will be quite slow without Radiance.
-From my experience in most cases leveling up Desolate first and then Dagger is a lot better than vice versa. Dagger costs a lot of mana, you won't be able to spam it nor farm with it as it deals poor damage anyway. With maxed Desolate your Haunt illusions deal a lot of damage in the early game and can kill someone without a need to reality to them, as moving out of the lane to get one kill in most cases isn't worth it all.
-Refresher is amazing, but as I said, not as second item. If you have solid early game you can get Ring of Health just for the regen, go straight into Radiance and then Manta/Diffusal/Skadi whatever you think is needed for the game and then you can get Refresher as third/forth item.
I disagree with guys saying "if you want to play early game ganking Spectre, you should pick another hero" or something along those lines. It is more like that I am forced to play Spectre like that if I had bad early game, because I have higher chances to win if I get a lot smaller, tanky items and go for ganks then if I try to farm my Radiance and get it around 35-40 minute.
Happened quite a lot in my games and going for Radiance when heavy behind was never a good choice. I think the refresher build is only meant as a straight rush after a fast radiance. Otherwise it's effectiveness diminishes rapidly. IE: a 16-19 minute radiance --> refresher. You can't get a 30 minute radiance then get the refresher because I think it would be too weak then. As a side note, I think Radiance --> yasha --> refresher is probably the most optimal item path because of the huge bonus you get from any sort of speed boost. I also think treads is probably your boot of choice, particularly if you go the SNY route. I disagree that Refresher is losing effectiveness later in the game, I think that it is just stronger and stronger if the game goes on because of your other items, of course up to the point when you are 6 slotted and when it can't get better than that. But when you have like, Radiance, Manta, Diffusal, Refresher and Etheral Blade/Butterfly(or both), your Illusions are hitting like a truck. I agree about Radiance -> Yasha -> Refresher, you don't really have to finish whole Manta or S&Y. About fast Radiance into Refresher, it could work but you barely have 700 mana without other items if you just get like Boots, Radiance, Refresher and Magic stick at that point, it could be troublesome if you aren't in base. From my experience, if you go for Radiance and then straight into Refresher, and enemy team with Meka for example decide to push as 5, your Radiance + Refresher isn't doing much and you can't fight them head on because of your poor survivability. And if you've completely crushed them and they barely can afford boots, then it doesn't really matter what items you are going to make after Radiance. :D
I should of clarified. I meant that having radiance refresher at 25ish is much better than having radiance refresher at 35-40 as two items. If you are fighting to the point where your radiance is so late, I don't think you can afford to go the radiance when the manta gives you much more utility in a fight with a much shorter CD. The item scales well with your items but I was referring to if you get a late radiance, that other items are probably better for you and your team than a refresher.
But yeah, I think it will probably require your first couple of uses be from the fountain, maybe haunt and TP home, then refresh, then haunt out again. I think the timing needs to be good for the refresher because it should guarantee your first use of it results in a near team wipe, which should allow you to snowball really hard into your next item like finishing the SNY, or grabbing your diffusal for the next fight.
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On June 30 2014 21:18 FuzioNda1337 wrote:
spectre is only legit to pick and have on your team if you have following. great teamfight/gank/stun/cc presence on your team,other aoe combos with your ult, oldschool aa spec with another global burst dmg, zeus or is powerful, however it all depends on other teams picks, if they go agro tri, you can expect lost game.
spectre is one of the worst carries in the game and she is not even the best carry by far even.
only good part with her is her dagger slows, thru bkb.and her ultimate presence.
You should always bring the fight to spectre if you are against spec, same as io(if possible)
her farming speed is very bad also.
i have always felt that her dispersion been lackluster ability even how praised it is by some players. i would like that she got an activate aoe nuke. that works like echoslams, motivating others to not stand close to eachother for her passive to work better.
but of course not as strong as echo but work around that way.
anyway she has her games where she is great, but she is like that hero you feel somone could have done the same job but better anyway.
Thats why she aint picked, you can smell straight away if a game is lost if a pro team picks spec, other teams picks, and their picks.
for instance alliance when they picked her last TI i knew game was lost right during all picks and bans.
if there is one hero i would suggest anyone to stay away from if they wanna learn a specific hero that is so lackluster in so many ways and easily countered, and limiting your team by a lot. spectre is one of them.
about refresher radiance build, it is really legit, but keep in mind those heroes she is great with this build is also the heroes that a great trilaners against her, cm,veno,lion,lina,lesh and such.
So if you get that fast they are doing somthing wrong or failed miserbly, and you will notice that you cant go this build vs these and forced to skip that radiance. very fast and get a fast diff instead.
I think you are underestimating her utility early on. You can literally team fight from anywhere on the map. Her farming is slow until you get radiance, but once she has it shes farms at a pretty reasonable pace. Your haunt also means you don't have to sit around waiting for a fight and can actively farm until the fight starts, then be their instantly just by hitting R.
I personally like her because I think she plays to many of my strengths as a carry, and my weaknesses are mitigated. I can help in a team fight every 120 seconds just by hitting a button, and can easy nab some skills or haunt in and toss out a dagger depending on how the fight is going. This means I can farm super greedy and not move with my team. I tend to not move with my team enough so haunt tends to help mitigate my weakness by making that irrelevant. While my strengths of safely farming and split pushing are able to be used a bit more aggressively.
Either way though, once she's level 6 she can help get pick offs and help in team fights every 120s, and her damage during the first 15 minutes with just desolate is quite fierce, particularly if you have someone like a clockwerk who can just hold someone in place while you hammer away at them.
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On June 30 2014 22:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 21:45 Ramiz1989 wrote:On June 30 2014 21:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 30 2014 19:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Played Spectre quite a bit and was testing a lot of builds.
To be honest, I didn't like Refresher as second item at all, you just aren't doing enough damage with illusions if you aren't way too much ahead. What works for me so far is to go for Phaseboots, Radiance into Manta/Diffusal or both, and then get Refresher as third/forth item.
My build was changing a lot depending on the game and how much I was harassed and how good my farm was. Last Spectre game I'd played, I had terrible laneing stage, and was ganked a lot, while my team started to die a lot. I went for Vanguard(which I usually disagree with but it is quite situational and here it was very good), Blademail and started to gank with mates. The recover from early game happened when I was farming jungle with just Vanguard, Phase and Magic stick, while my courier was flying to me to give me Blademail. Lina, Ogre and Enigma ganked me, Lina used Eul on me to set up stun and in that moment courier gave me Blademail. When I fell to the ground, I activated it, Ogre and Lina killed themself, I escaped literally with 50 HP and my mates arrived and killed Enigma.
After that I went for Diffusal and Manta and then Refresher(which was like 5th item in this case even though first 2 weren't really big items) and ended up with 20-4 in the end in the game that we were losing.
My conclusion:
-Radiance really is the most important item on Spectre.
-If you didn't get Radiance around minute 25-30 at worst possible scenario, I am not sure you should get it at all.
-If you can't farm Radiance, going for early game ganking builds is worth it, Phase/Treads with Drums/Vang/Blademail(or any combination of these three) are good options. If you aren't going Radiance because of bad early game, you should watch for ganks with these items to make a comeback if possible since your farm will be quite slow without Radiance.
-From my experience in most cases leveling up Desolate first and then Dagger is a lot better than vice versa. Dagger costs a lot of mana, you won't be able to spam it nor farm with it as it deals poor damage anyway. With maxed Desolate your Haunt illusions deal a lot of damage in the early game and can kill someone without a need to reality to them, as moving out of the lane to get one kill in most cases isn't worth it all.
-Refresher is amazing, but as I said, not as second item. If you have solid early game you can get Ring of Health just for the regen, go straight into Radiance and then Manta/Diffusal/Skadi whatever you think is needed for the game and then you can get Refresher as third/forth item.
I disagree with guys saying "if you want to play early game ganking Spectre, you should pick another hero" or something along those lines. It is more like that I am forced to play Spectre like that if I had bad early game, because I have higher chances to win if I get a lot smaller, tanky items and go for ganks then if I try to farm my Radiance and get it around 35-40 minute.
Happened quite a lot in my games and going for Radiance when heavy behind was never a good choice. I think the refresher build is only meant as a straight rush after a fast radiance. Otherwise it's effectiveness diminishes rapidly. IE: a 16-19 minute radiance --> refresher. You can't get a 30 minute radiance then get the refresher because I think it would be too weak then. As a side note, I think Radiance --> yasha --> refresher is probably the most optimal item path because of the huge bonus you get from any sort of speed boost. I also think treads is probably your boot of choice, particularly if you go the SNY route. I disagree that Refresher is losing effectiveness later in the game, I think that it is just stronger and stronger if the game goes on because of your other items, of course up to the point when you are 6 slotted and when it can't get better than that. But when you have like, Radiance, Manta, Diffusal, Refresher and Etheral Blade/Butterfly(or both), your Illusions are hitting like a truck. I agree about Radiance -> Yasha -> Refresher, you don't really have to finish whole Manta or S&Y. About fast Radiance into Refresher, it could work but you barely have 700 mana without other items if you just get like Boots, Radiance, Refresher and Magic stick at that point, it could be troublesome if you aren't in base. From my experience, if you go for Radiance and then straight into Refresher, and enemy team with Meka for example decide to push as 5, your Radiance + Refresher isn't doing much and you can't fight them head on because of your poor survivability. And if you've completely crushed them and they barely can afford boots, then it doesn't really matter what items you are going to make after Radiance. :D I should of clarified. I meant that having radiance refresher at 25ish is much better than having radiance refresher at 35-40 as two items. If you are fighting to the point where your radiance is so late, I don't think you can afford to go the radiance when the manta gives you much more utility in a fight with a much shorter CD. The item scales well with your items but I was referring to if you get a late radiance, that other items are probably better for you and your team than a refresher. But yeah, I think it will probably require your first couple of uses be from the fountain, maybe haunt and TP home, then refresh, then haunt out again. I think the timing needs to be good for the refresher because it should guarantee your first use of it results in a near team wipe, which should allow you to snowball really hard into your next item like finishing the SNY, or grabbing your diffusal for the next fight.
I understand you now, and I completely agree.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 30 2014 22:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 21:45 Ramiz1989 wrote:On June 30 2014 21:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 30 2014 19:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Played Spectre quite a bit and was testing a lot of builds.
To be honest, I didn't like Refresher as second item at all, you just aren't doing enough damage with illusions if you aren't way too much ahead. What works for me so far is to go for Phaseboots, Radiance into Manta/Diffusal or both, and then get Refresher as third/forth item.
My build was changing a lot depending on the game and how much I was harassed and how good my farm was. Last Spectre game I'd played, I had terrible laneing stage, and was ganked a lot, while my team started to die a lot. I went for Vanguard(which I usually disagree with but it is quite situational and here it was very good), Blademail and started to gank with mates. The recover from early game happened when I was farming jungle with just Vanguard, Phase and Magic stick, while my courier was flying to me to give me Blademail. Lina, Ogre and Enigma ganked me, Lina used Eul on me to set up stun and in that moment courier gave me Blademail. When I fell to the ground, I activated it, Ogre and Lina killed themself, I escaped literally with 50 HP and my mates arrived and killed Enigma.
After that I went for Diffusal and Manta and then Refresher(which was like 5th item in this case even though first 2 weren't really big items) and ended up with 20-4 in the end in the game that we were losing.
My conclusion:
-Radiance really is the most important item on Spectre.
-If you didn't get Radiance around minute 25-30 at worst possible scenario, I am not sure you should get it at all.
-If you can't farm Radiance, going for early game ganking builds is worth it, Phase/Treads with Drums/Vang/Blademail(or any combination of these three) are good options. If you aren't going Radiance because of bad early game, you should watch for ganks with these items to make a comeback if possible since your farm will be quite slow without Radiance.
-From my experience in most cases leveling up Desolate first and then Dagger is a lot better than vice versa. Dagger costs a lot of mana, you won't be able to spam it nor farm with it as it deals poor damage anyway. With maxed Desolate your Haunt illusions deal a lot of damage in the early game and can kill someone without a need to reality to them, as moving out of the lane to get one kill in most cases isn't worth it all.
-Refresher is amazing, but as I said, not as second item. If you have solid early game you can get Ring of Health just for the regen, go straight into Radiance and then Manta/Diffusal/Skadi whatever you think is needed for the game and then you can get Refresher as third/forth item.
I disagree with guys saying "if you want to play early game ganking Spectre, you should pick another hero" or something along those lines. It is more like that I am forced to play Spectre like that if I had bad early game, because I have higher chances to win if I get a lot smaller, tanky items and go for ganks then if I try to farm my Radiance and get it around 35-40 minute.
Happened quite a lot in my games and going for Radiance when heavy behind was never a good choice. I think the refresher build is only meant as a straight rush after a fast radiance. Otherwise it's effectiveness diminishes rapidly. IE: a 16-19 minute radiance --> refresher. You can't get a 30 minute radiance then get the refresher because I think it would be too weak then. As a side note, I think Radiance --> yasha --> refresher is probably the most optimal item path because of the huge bonus you get from any sort of speed boost. I also think treads is probably your boot of choice, particularly if you go the SNY route. I disagree that Refresher is losing effectiveness later in the game, I think that it is just stronger and stronger if the game goes on because of your other items, of course up to the point when you are 6 slotted and when it can't get better than that. But when you have like, Radiance, Manta, Diffusal, Refresher and Etheral Blade/Butterfly(or both), your Illusions are hitting like a truck. I agree about Radiance -> Yasha -> Refresher, you don't really have to finish whole Manta or S&Y. About fast Radiance into Refresher, it could work but you barely have 700 mana without other items if you just get like Boots, Radiance, Refresher and Magic stick at that point, it could be troublesome if you aren't in base. From my experience, if you go for Radiance and then straight into Refresher, and enemy team with Meka for example decide to push as 5, your Radiance + Refresher isn't doing much and you can't fight them head on because of your poor survivability. And if you've completely crushed them and they barely can afford boots, then it doesn't really matter what items you are going to make after Radiance. :D I should of clarified. I meant that having radiance refresher at 25ish is much better than having radiance refresher at 35-40 as two items. If you are fighting to the point where your radiance is so late, I don't think you can afford to go the radiance when the manta gives you much more utility in a fight with a much shorter CD. The item scales well with your items but I was referring to if you get a late radiance, that other items are probably better for you and your team than a refresher. But yeah, I think it will probably require your first couple of uses be from the fountain, maybe haunt and TP home, then refresh, then haunt out again. I think the timing needs to be good for the refresher because it should guarantee your first use of it results in a near team wipe, which should allow you to snowball really hard into your next item like finishing the SNY, or grabbing your diffusal for the next fight.
Well, having 430 gpm is obviously much better than having 314 gpm if you are primary farmer, it does not really say much. And yes, usually first use of earlier rfo-radiance does result into near-team wipe unless somehow countered, be it stampede or song.
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On June 30 2014 17:12 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 15:31 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote:
I've always thought of it as an item you would only get if you have no tide/sk/etc since its only really useful for burn damage from haunt. I honestly avoid getting it like the plague since its build up is forever, it flops late game, and without haunt it does nothing. I honestly feel I do more damage with Diffusal/Heart/Butterfly in team fights as I can 3v5 their team at any point rather than wait for haunt. Is their some pro strat I am not getting? If you look at how fights play out, Radiance does more damage than any other item except a rapier. If enemy supports get behind at all, you will accidentally kill them quite often with a Radiance. Spectre is also one of the worst carry heroes at farming without a radiance, possibly even worse than Chaos Knight. A reasonable Radiance timing can get you 9-10 cs/min by 30-40 min, while you'd be happy with 5 cs/min going Diffusal first. Thus Radiance Spectre is THE lategame item because it gets you the farm to get 6 slotted - plus the damage is still very relevant until 60+ min games with farmed supports. The only time you ever don't get a radiance is if your t3s are under siege and you don't have a relic, because Diffusal will rarely let you comeback the way radiance can. If you go Diffusal on Spectre that's basically saying he was the wrong hero for the game.
Ohhhhhhh. Now I get it. I always play Spectre as survive in lane, maybe get a few kills. Get Diffusal drums. Than pick off lone heros in lane using haunt or poofing into teamfight and snowballing from hero kills. Is it necessary to get rad after diffusal drums or at that point should I go heart into butterfly?
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On June 30 2014 23:46 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 22:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 30 2014 21:45 Ramiz1989 wrote:On June 30 2014 21:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 30 2014 19:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Played Spectre quite a bit and was testing a lot of builds.
To be honest, I didn't like Refresher as second item at all, you just aren't doing enough damage with illusions if you aren't way too much ahead. What works for me so far is to go for Phaseboots, Radiance into Manta/Diffusal or both, and then get Refresher as third/forth item.
My build was changing a lot depending on the game and how much I was harassed and how good my farm was. Last Spectre game I'd played, I had terrible laneing stage, and was ganked a lot, while my team started to die a lot. I went for Vanguard(which I usually disagree with but it is quite situational and here it was very good), Blademail and started to gank with mates. The recover from early game happened when I was farming jungle with just Vanguard, Phase and Magic stick, while my courier was flying to me to give me Blademail. Lina, Ogre and Enigma ganked me, Lina used Eul on me to set up stun and in that moment courier gave me Blademail. When I fell to the ground, I activated it, Ogre and Lina killed themself, I escaped literally with 50 HP and my mates arrived and killed Enigma.
After that I went for Diffusal and Manta and then Refresher(which was like 5th item in this case even though first 2 weren't really big items) and ended up with 20-4 in the end in the game that we were losing.
My conclusion:
-Radiance really is the most important item on Spectre.
-If you didn't get Radiance around minute 25-30 at worst possible scenario, I am not sure you should get it at all.
-If you can't farm Radiance, going for early game ganking builds is worth it, Phase/Treads with Drums/Vang/Blademail(or any combination of these three) are good options. If you aren't going Radiance because of bad early game, you should watch for ganks with these items to make a comeback if possible since your farm will be quite slow without Radiance.
-From my experience in most cases leveling up Desolate first and then Dagger is a lot better than vice versa. Dagger costs a lot of mana, you won't be able to spam it nor farm with it as it deals poor damage anyway. With maxed Desolate your Haunt illusions deal a lot of damage in the early game and can kill someone without a need to reality to them, as moving out of the lane to get one kill in most cases isn't worth it all.
-Refresher is amazing, but as I said, not as second item. If you have solid early game you can get Ring of Health just for the regen, go straight into Radiance and then Manta/Diffusal/Skadi whatever you think is needed for the game and then you can get Refresher as third/forth item.
I disagree with guys saying "if you want to play early game ganking Spectre, you should pick another hero" or something along those lines. It is more like that I am forced to play Spectre like that if I had bad early game, because I have higher chances to win if I get a lot smaller, tanky items and go for ganks then if I try to farm my Radiance and get it around 35-40 minute.
Happened quite a lot in my games and going for Radiance when heavy behind was never a good choice. I think the refresher build is only meant as a straight rush after a fast radiance. Otherwise it's effectiveness diminishes rapidly. IE: a 16-19 minute radiance --> refresher. You can't get a 30 minute radiance then get the refresher because I think it would be too weak then. As a side note, I think Radiance --> yasha --> refresher is probably the most optimal item path because of the huge bonus you get from any sort of speed boost. I also think treads is probably your boot of choice, particularly if you go the SNY route. I disagree that Refresher is losing effectiveness later in the game, I think that it is just stronger and stronger if the game goes on because of your other items, of course up to the point when you are 6 slotted and when it can't get better than that. But when you have like, Radiance, Manta, Diffusal, Refresher and Etheral Blade/Butterfly(or both), your Illusions are hitting like a truck. I agree about Radiance -> Yasha -> Refresher, you don't really have to finish whole Manta or S&Y. About fast Radiance into Refresher, it could work but you barely have 700 mana without other items if you just get like Boots, Radiance, Refresher and Magic stick at that point, it could be troublesome if you aren't in base. From my experience, if you go for Radiance and then straight into Refresher, and enemy team with Meka for example decide to push as 5, your Radiance + Refresher isn't doing much and you can't fight them head on because of your poor survivability. And if you've completely crushed them and they barely can afford boots, then it doesn't really matter what items you are going to make after Radiance. :D I should of clarified. I meant that having radiance refresher at 25ish is much better than having radiance refresher at 35-40 as two items. If you are fighting to the point where your radiance is so late, I don't think you can afford to go the radiance when the manta gives you much more utility in a fight with a much shorter CD. The item scales well with your items but I was referring to if you get a late radiance, that other items are probably better for you and your team than a refresher. But yeah, I think it will probably require your first couple of uses be from the fountain, maybe haunt and TP home, then refresh, then haunt out again. I think the timing needs to be good for the refresher because it should guarantee your first use of it results in a near team wipe, which should allow you to snowball really hard into your next item like finishing the SNY, or grabbing your diffusal for the next fight. Well, having 430 gpm is obviously much better than having 314 gpm if you are primary farmer, it does not really say much. And yes, usually first use of earlier rfo-radiance does result into near-team wipe unless somehow countered, be it stampede or song.
I feel like you missed the point. I just meant to illustrate that in a tenser game where your timings are later on the radiance, it becomes more efficient to skip the refresher in favor of other items. Obviously a higher GPM is always better than a lower GPM, my point was simply that for Radiance-RFO to be viable as a RUSH, you need to have it quickly so you can dominate the next two team fights and rapidly accelerate your next item progression.
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Weird question, but is positioning ever relevant for Desolate procs, or is that mostly negligible?
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On July 01 2014 02:20 DazzleEnthusiast wrote:
Weird question, but is positioning ever relevant for Desolate procs, or is that mostly negligible?
As spectre or playing against, more against, hugging creeps ftw :D
not a very big detail, for spec well depends on game to game who to focus down, but yes it does matter same as its not just about popping spec ult its when to pop it also.
Things like this you cant answer right on papper all depends how game is going what items and heroes you/other team has.
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On June 30 2014 23:01 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 21:18 FuzioNda1337 wrote:
spectre is only legit to pick and have on your team if you have following. great teamfight/gank/stun/cc presence on your team,other aoe combos with your ult, oldschool aa spec with another global burst dmg, zeus or is powerful, however it all depends on other teams picks, if they go agro tri, you can expect lost game.
spectre is one of the worst carries in the game and she is not even the best carry by far even.
only good part with her is her dagger slows, thru bkb.and her ultimate presence.
You should always bring the fight to spectre if you are against spec, same as io(if possible)
her farming speed is very bad also.
i have always felt that her dispersion been lackluster ability even how praised it is by some players. i would like that she got an activate aoe nuke. that works like echoslams, motivating others to not stand close to eachother for her passive to work better.
but of course not as strong as echo but work around that way.
anyway she has her games where she is great, but she is like that hero you feel somone could have done the same job but better anyway.
Thats why she aint picked, you can smell straight away if a game is lost if a pro team picks spec, other teams picks, and their picks.
for instance alliance when they picked her last TI i knew game was lost right during all picks and bans.
if there is one hero i would suggest anyone to stay away from if they wanna learn a specific hero that is so lackluster in so many ways and easily countered, and limiting your team by a lot. spectre is one of them.
about refresher radiance build, it is really legit, but keep in mind those heroes she is great with this build is also the heroes that a great trilaners against her, cm,veno,lion,lina,lesh and such.
So if you get that fast they are doing somthing wrong or failed miserbly, and you will notice that you cant go this build vs these and forced to skip that radiance. very fast and get a fast diff instead. I think you are underestimating her utility early on. You can literally team fight from anywhere on the map. Her farming is slow until you get radiance, but once she has it shes farms at a pretty reasonable pace. Your haunt also means you don't have to sit around waiting for a fight and can actively farm until the fight starts, then be their instantly just by hitting R. I personally like her because I think she plays to many of my strengths as a carry, and my weaknesses are mitigated. I can help in a team fight every 120 seconds just by hitting a button, and can easy nab some skills or haunt in and toss out a dagger depending on how the fight is going. This means I can farm super greedy and not move with my team. I tend to not move with my team enough so haunt tends to help mitigate my weakness by making that irrelevant. While my strengths of safely farming and split pushing are able to be used a bit more aggressively. Either way though, once she's level 6 she can help get pick offs and help in team fights every 120s, and her damage during the first 15 minutes with just desolate is quite fierce, particularly if you have someone like a clockwerk who can just hold someone in place while you hammer away at them.
you dont seem to understand, you must have a far stronger tri, for her to work.
if they have a stronger they will CRUSH literlarry you lane, you absence in the lane is close to a stronger creep.
you dont have any great cc or great ability to deal much damage, your dagger deals bad damage, expensive, and slow is very very bad earlygame(i am not talking about being able to run over tree:s now)
So how are you going to farm?
and yes she is strong with her ult being able to join fights, thats why i said thats why you pick her, but still you need to be winning the fights or trade well, if you dont(your team8s doing all the work for you) then it will end really bad for you.
im not talking about pub games where ppl running around like clueless chickens unaware how to draft and play.
in pub all heroes works, but agianst good players they could just aswell picked void.
A good team will have stronger and bring the fight to you, you wont have much breathing space at all, while their safelaner having a blast.
This is the major problem teams have to understand, best way to deal with spec and make her useless, be in her lane, dont try to push to early until she can start farm ok.
She is best to be picked as safelaner as radiant not dire, due to the pull possbilities as agro tri makes it even worse.
She has her stenghts but those are so few, i would say ursa is alot more viable in many more games than spec, but i am not saying she is useless she has her pocket strats. if they go greedy lineup, but often greedy lineup also means they get more farm and is tankier aswell, simple put.
if you go spec you need good earlygame and lane heroes.
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Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
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Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again.
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On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better.
On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again.
It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents.
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On July 01 2014 02:56 FuzioNda1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 23:01 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 30 2014 21:18 FuzioNda1337 wrote:
spectre is only legit to pick and have on your team if you have following. great teamfight/gank/stun/cc presence on your team,other aoe combos with your ult, oldschool aa spec with another global burst dmg, zeus or is powerful, however it all depends on other teams picks, if they go agro tri, you can expect lost game.
spectre is one of the worst carries in the game and she is not even the best carry by far even.
only good part with her is her dagger slows, thru bkb.and her ultimate presence.
You should always bring the fight to spectre if you are against spec, same as io(if possible)
her farming speed is very bad also.
i have always felt that her dispersion been lackluster ability even how praised it is by some players. i would like that she got an activate aoe nuke. that works like echoslams, motivating others to not stand close to eachother for her passive to work better.
but of course not as strong as echo but work around that way.
anyway she has her games where she is great, but she is like that hero you feel somone could have done the same job but better anyway.
Thats why she aint picked, you can smell straight away if a game is lost if a pro team picks spec, other teams picks, and their picks.
for instance alliance when they picked her last TI i knew game was lost right during all picks and bans.
if there is one hero i would suggest anyone to stay away from if they wanna learn a specific hero that is so lackluster in so many ways and easily countered, and limiting your team by a lot. spectre is one of them.
about refresher radiance build, it is really legit, but keep in mind those heroes she is great with this build is also the heroes that a great trilaners against her, cm,veno,lion,lina,lesh and such.
So if you get that fast they are doing somthing wrong or failed miserbly, and you will notice that you cant go this build vs these and forced to skip that radiance. very fast and get a fast diff instead. I think you are underestimating her utility early on. You can literally team fight from anywhere on the map. Her farming is slow until you get radiance, but once she has it shes farms at a pretty reasonable pace. Your haunt also means you don't have to sit around waiting for a fight and can actively farm until the fight starts, then be their instantly just by hitting R. I personally like her because I think she plays to many of my strengths as a carry, and my weaknesses are mitigated. I can help in a team fight every 120 seconds just by hitting a button, and can easy nab some skills or haunt in and toss out a dagger depending on how the fight is going. This means I can farm super greedy and not move with my team. I tend to not move with my team enough so haunt tends to help mitigate my weakness by making that irrelevant. While my strengths of safely farming and split pushing are able to be used a bit more aggressively. Either way though, once she's level 6 she can help get pick offs and help in team fights every 120s, and her damage during the first 15 minutes with just desolate is quite fierce, particularly if you have someone like a clockwerk who can just hold someone in place while you hammer away at them. you dont seem to understand, you must have a far stronger tri, for her to work. if they have a stronger they will CRUSH literlarry you lane, you absence in the lane is close to a stronger creep. you dont have any great cc or great ability to deal much damage, your dagger deals bad damage, expensive, and slow is very very bad earlygame(i am not talking about being able to run over tree:s now) So how are you going to farm? and yes she is strong with her ult being able to join fights, thats why i said thats why you pick her, but still you need to be winning the fights or trade well, if you dont(your team8s doing all the work for you) then it will end really bad for you. im not talking about pub games where ppl running around like clueless chickens unaware how to draft and play. in pub all heroes works, but agianst good players they could just aswell picked void. A good team will have stronger and bring the fight to you, you wont have much breathing space at all, while their safelaner having a blast. This is the major problem teams have to understand, best way to deal with spec and make her useless, be in her lane, dont try to push to early until she can start farm ok. She is best to be picked as safelaner as radiant not dire, due to the pull possbilities as agro tri makes it even worse. She has her stenghts but those are so few, i would say ursa is alot more viable in many more games than spec, but i am not saying she is useless she has her pocket strats. if they go greedy lineup, but often greedy lineup also means they get more farm and is tankier aswell, simple put. if you go spec you need good earlygame and lane heroes.
You just responded to like one point. Yes, facing an aggro tri with her would suck. She's on par with void and AM in that respect. Besides that her farming is decent enough, and her contribution at level 7/8 is quite good. But yeah, if you are against an aggro with like a gyro or mirana or something you are going to have a really shitty time, but that could be said of pretty much any hard carry, with the possible exception of a PL if he has a KOTL to spam away with.
Plus like you said, a tri can fail if you also run two dominating supports like a lich/visage to discourage their trilane.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents.
Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent.
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On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent.
Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate.
There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher.
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That guy likes refresher on every hero lol
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On July 01 2014 06:01 Sn0_Man wrote:
That guy likes refresher on every hero lol
Refresher is legit and core on every hero; only question is whether to get it 3rd item 4th 5th 6th or 7th :D
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On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher.
You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre.
On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality.
You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item.
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On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality.
He is biased towards some items like Skadi and Refresher, he loves them too much, but he usually makes valid points and good arguments from what I've seen. What he said here is just strange though...
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While he's wrong a lot of times or right for the wrong reasons, if you can have radiance/refresher, you shouldnt be able to lose the game if you don't do any mistakes. Ofc if your team headbutts in and feed them 50kills then ur screwed no matter what but lets hope this doesnt happen
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 01 2014 08:09 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. He is biased towards some items like Skadi and Refresher, he loves them too much, but he usually makes valid points and good arguments from what I've seen. What he said here is just strange though...
Well, my point is that if enemy for some reason has relatively tanky and sustainable 5man (think necro 5 mans, that's if Necro was not camped at his lane for few minutes straight in beginning) and your other lanes did not have a great start, you, as spec, is in generally screwed a tad bit, since radiance burn is good, but so is pipe, mek and necro's death pulse spam/whatever other heals against this. And heart won't even help much either, since heart only is good when you can force people not to ignore you. Obviously, heart will do much more on frontline than refresher, but against proper 5 mans/tanky 3 cores spectre won't do much either way IMO and that's where you sort of have to rely more on proper initiation from teammates and if enemy team is running away, they are not hitting you, so heart does not help either. So, i just conclude that rad-rfo is probably best thing you can do when spectre is good carry pick.
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On July 01 2014 08:11 Erasme wrote:
While he's wrong a lot of times or right for the wrong reasons, if you can have radiance/refresher, you shouldnt be able to lose the game if you don't do any mistakes. Ofc if your team headbutts in and feed them 50kills then ur screwed no matter what but lets hope this doesnt happen
Not doing any mistakes is pretty much impossible since we aren't perfect beings and there are always mistakes. But anyway, I understand your point, you wanted to say that if you get Radiance and Refresher at reasonable time(around 25 minutes is really good) and have decent teammates you shouldn't lose, which I still disagree with because DotA is far more complex than that.
Sometimes enemy just have heroes that counter yours and it doesn't matter how many mistakes you are making, as long as they are not making some huge mistakes they should win. Having 3-4 very tanky heroes, together with Meka, Pipe and maybe even one more heal and your double ulti with Radiance won't be doing anything.
But let's not get that deep into the game, what I want to say is that Radiance and Refresher is great combo on Spectre(even though I still don't like to get Refresher immediately after Radiance but that is just me), but it is not instant win and people shouldn't be surprised if in some games they get it in quite decent time and still don't do much with it.
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im just at 4.2 solo so i aint good, but i play spectre pretty differently.
spectre is the only carry in the game that can split push and instantly join team fights regardless of positioning. so if you build midgame items they will have to commit 2~ heroes or their core to stop your split push because otherwise your going to crush them with max desolate. for this reason alone i find phase/drums/yasha to be more practical in solo queue than naked radiance.
if i was playing 5 man with 2 talented and dedicated supports then i'd be on board with rad-refresher. but in a generally unorganized solo q team, i think its a recipe for a 20 min radiance.
if my team lineup is team-fight oriented, i find i can hit phase/drum/yasha/diffusal by around 20 mins, which i find infinetely more useful than a radiance/treads or whatever. depending how broke their supports are / if they have any blink carriers, i usually get radiance or manta, and then whatever end game items
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On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item.
Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it.
Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded.
If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 01 2014 13:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item. Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it. Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded. If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown.
Let's start with clarifying first important thing: if you go radiance-refresher, there is 0 need in tankyness items, so you would not get a heart either in this case, in fact skadi is not needed here, but can be useful if enemy has insane aoe burst like mass poof.
Next, heart vs skadi is a choice between best orb on your actual hero except for satanic, eaglehorn's worth of agility, no ever worrying about mana problems, as in spamming dagger as neccessary, and actual use against bkbs and 335 HP + regen.
Next: satanic is absolutely irrelevant to splash damage, the fact that you connect them tells alot. Thing is: even on melee carries with poor own dps, as long as you got few real dps items and have ability to deliver hits satanic >> heart for survivability. You would get satanic as for example 6th slot after manta or bkb,bfly,abyssal, bkb or skadi and bots. Or 13th if you went rad-refresher-diffusal-manta-eblades path.
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On July 01 2014 21:22 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 13:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item. Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it. Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded. If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown. Let's start with clarifying first important thing: if you go radiance-refresher, there is 0 need in tankyness items, so you would not get a heart either in this case, in fact skadi is not needed here, but can be useful if enemy has insane aoe burst like mass poof. Next, heart vs skadi is a choice between best orb on your actual hero except for satanic, eaglehorn's worth of agility, no ever worrying about mana problems, as in spamming dagger as neccessary, and actual use against bkbs and 335 HP + regen. Next: satanic is absolutely irrelevant to splash damage, the fact that you connect them tells alot. Thing is: even on melee carries with poor own dps, as long as you got few real dps items and have ability to deliver hits satanic >> heart for survivability. You would get satanic as for example 6th slot after manta or bkb,bfly,abyssal, bkb or skadi and bots. Or 13th if you went rad-refresher-diffusal-manta-eblades path.
I am pretty sure that Diffusal is best orb most of the time on your hero just because it is the only orb that works with Illusions and later in the game when you have ton of agi and attack speed from it, enemy Strength heroes are losing quite a bit of Mana when you use your ulti, not even mentioning if you have refresher.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 01 2014 23:27 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 21:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 13:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item. Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it. Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded. If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown. Let's start with clarifying first important thing: if you go radiance-refresher, there is 0 need in tankyness items, so you would not get a heart either in this case, in fact skadi is not needed here, but can be useful if enemy has insane aoe burst like mass poof. Next, heart vs skadi is a choice between best orb on your actual hero except for satanic, eaglehorn's worth of agility, no ever worrying about mana problems, as in spamming dagger as neccessary, and actual use against bkbs and 335 HP + regen. Next: satanic is absolutely irrelevant to splash damage, the fact that you connect them tells alot. Thing is: even on melee carries with poor own dps, as long as you got few real dps items and have ability to deliver hits satanic >> heart for survivability. You would get satanic as for example 6th slot after manta or bkb,bfly,abyssal, bkb or skadi and bots. Or 13th if you went rad-refresher-diffusal-manta-eblades path. I am pretty sure that Diffusal is best orb most of the time on your hero just because it is the only orb that works with Illusions and later in the game when you have ton of agi and attack speed from it, enemy Strength heroes are losing quite a bit of Mana when you use your ulti, not even mentioning if you have refresher.
Except that you can easily keep feedback on illusions with skadi on main hero.
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On July 01 2014 23:36 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 23:27 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 21:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 13:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item. Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it. Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded. If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown. Let's start with clarifying first important thing: if you go radiance-refresher, there is 0 need in tankyness items, so you would not get a heart either in this case, in fact skadi is not needed here, but can be useful if enemy has insane aoe burst like mass poof. Next, heart vs skadi is a choice between best orb on your actual hero except for satanic, eaglehorn's worth of agility, no ever worrying about mana problems, as in spamming dagger as neccessary, and actual use against bkbs and 335 HP + regen. Next: satanic is absolutely irrelevant to splash damage, the fact that you connect them tells alot. Thing is: even on melee carries with poor own dps, as long as you got few real dps items and have ability to deliver hits satanic >> heart for survivability. You would get satanic as for example 6th slot after manta or bkb,bfly,abyssal, bkb or skadi and bots. Or 13th if you went rad-refresher-diffusal-manta-eblades path. I am pretty sure that Diffusal is best orb most of the time on your hero just because it is the only orb that works with Illusions and later in the game when you have ton of agi and attack speed from it, enemy Strength heroes are losing quite a bit of Mana when you use your ulti, not even mentioning if you have refresher. Except that you can easily keep feedback on illusions with skadi on main hero.
Well I've never tested that in DotA 2 so how does that work? Does Skadi always overrides Diffusal or does it depend on the position in your inventory like in DotA 1?
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On July 01 2014 21:22 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 13:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item. Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it. Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded. If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown. Let's start with clarifying first important thing: if you go radiance-refresher, there is 0 need in tankyness items, so you would not get a heart either in this case, in fact skadi is not needed here, but can be useful if enemy has insane aoe burst like mass poof. Next, heart vs skadi is a choice between best orb on your actual hero except for satanic, eaglehorn's worth of agility, no ever worrying about mana problems, as in spamming dagger as neccessary, and actual use against bkbs and 335 HP + regen. Next: satanic is absolutely irrelevant to splash damage, the fact that you connect them tells alot. Thing is: even on melee carries with poor own dps, as long as you got few real dps items and have ability to deliver hits satanic >> heart for survivability. You would get satanic as for example 6th slot after manta or bkb,bfly,abyssal, bkb or skadi and bots. Or 13th if you went rad-refresher-diffusal-manta-eblades path.
...Skadi is not the best orb on your hero and Spectre doesn't have mana problems late game, particularly once you have manta and diffusal. You are talking like 1k mana with a spell that cost 160. Your dagger goes through BKB, meaning you are slowing enemy by 18 and increasing your speed by 18, creating a differential of 36%. About the same as skadi. Also if they don't have a BKB, you can use a diffusal blade charge and shit all over them. So Skadi is nowhere near as good as the diffusal on your hero. You suggested getting both, why would you get two orb effects only so your illusions get one? It's a waste of an item slot that can be better spent.
As for satanic, you're wrong. It usually works really well in conjuction with BKB carries, because you get low, BKB and satanic then fully regen through uninterrupted lifesteal. You don't want to get a BKB on spectre, so when you pop your satanic you could either get kited because you are melee or stun locked, because you have no bkb. It's dumb.
But seriously, what the fuck do you have against the heart? You are suggesting every possible alternative tanky item selection apart from the quintessential tanky item in dota 2, which is core on her for a very good reason.
But sorry, I was wrong about the splash damage and satanic.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 02 2014 05:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 21:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 13:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item. Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it. Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded. If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown. Let's start with clarifying first important thing: if you go radiance-refresher, there is 0 need in tankyness items, so you would not get a heart either in this case, in fact skadi is not needed here, but can be useful if enemy has insane aoe burst like mass poof. Next, heart vs skadi is a choice between best orb on your actual hero except for satanic, eaglehorn's worth of agility, no ever worrying about mana problems, as in spamming dagger as neccessary, and actual use against bkbs and 335 HP + regen. Next: satanic is absolutely irrelevant to splash damage, the fact that you connect them tells alot. Thing is: even on melee carries with poor own dps, as long as you got few real dps items and have ability to deliver hits satanic >> heart for survivability. You would get satanic as for example 6th slot after manta or bkb,bfly,abyssal, bkb or skadi and bots. Or 13th if you went rad-refresher-diffusal-manta-eblades path. ...Skadi is not the best orb on your hero and Spectre doesn't have mana problems late game, particularly once you have manta and diffusal. You are talking like 1k mana with a spell that cost 160. Your dagger goes through BKB, meaning you are slowing enemy by 18 and increasing your speed by 18, creating a differential of 36%. About the same as skadi. Also if they don't have a BKB, you can use a diffusal blade charge and shit all over them. So Skadi is nowhere near as good as the diffusal on your hero. You suggested getting both, why would you get two orb effects only so your illusions get one? It's a waste of an item slot that can be better spent. As for satanic, you're wrong. It usually works really well in conjuction with BKB carries, because you get low, BKB and satanic then fully regen through uninterrupted lifesteal. You don't want to get a BKB on spectre, so when you pop your satanic you could either get kited because you are melee or stun locked, because you have no bkb. It's dumb. But seriously, what the fuck do you have against the heart? You are suggesting every possible alternative tanky item selection apart from the quintessential tanky item in dota 2, which is core on her for a very good reason. But sorry, I was wrong about the splash damage and satanic.
1k mana with spell that costs 160 and has less than 20 second cd. Active usage of such can easily cut through mana. I won't even mention active usage of manta for farming. Next, once again, illusions only get feedback, but feedback outside of being usable on illusions is meh on most of heroes, even at lvl2 (albeit it does make diffusal a good dps item). Next, slows works best when there is more that a single one and dagger+skadi is a movement swing of up to 317 MS against a swing of 177 on average MS with both spec and target having BoTs (spec has yasha on top, so remove 39/40 MS on desire from both). Next one, if we follow your logic, skadi is a waste of item slot on OD, Meepo and Silencer too (hint, they are not, even though Silencer would not need it by any mean, ODs generally gets shivas for the matter, and Meepo has option of eblade and heart, even though 2 skadis are better stat-wise than heart+eblade, albeit more expensive).
Rule of thumb: there is no carry that should not buy BKB if this carry is actually going to manfight people. Just look at this Navi vs PR game with Xboct delaying his Bkb until it was too late, instead getting bs like vanguard, blademail and stuff.
Heart is not core on anyone, let's start with this. On agi carries i particularly dislike it, since unless you have a way to actually use HP regen, this is rather overpriced 1k of HP, that does not even improve combat efficiency significantly over investing additional Orb of Venom worth of money to get a Skadi, that happens to be even cost-efficient on the matter, even though mana sometimes goes to waste. Well, i happen to not need HP regen of heart in most of my games (and afterbattle regen is usually solved by urn/mek/logical disengage after taking an objective), so that's just me.
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1k mana is 5 daggers and 1 manta, not even taking into consideration mana regeneration. It would take you 80 seconds if you are casting dagger on CD to actually expend 5 of those. I was talking about feedback/purge effect on enemies. It's a 100% slow, and when you pop manta desolate/diffusal hits will rip that person a new asshole.
I don't play OD, but you can't stack the orbs. Skadi could be alright I guess, but that means you have to orb walk. It makes sense on meepo because the gains are amazing on him, and the slow stacks with your geostrike. I don't know why you would get it on silencer. I guess it's never a BAD item, it's just not a great item.
I don't think geting hard CC'd on spectre matters nearly as much as other heroes. Your damage is largely coming from radiance, haunt, and dispersion. CCing you and blowing you up takes time and results in a lot of damage being taken by all parties involved. I'm sure there is situations, but I just don't think there are many where you would feel the need to get a bkb except maybe as a last item in very niche situations, such as against a necrolyte.
But I guess I'm done with this. You just hate heart for no real reason. It's core on plenty of heroes like centaur and AM.
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United States47024 Posts
It's not really core on either of those 2 heroes. Centaur Heart only comes into play if you're insanely fed, and AM Heart vs. BKB is very much game dependent.
BKB Spectre is fine, though it's kind of situational. It's more suitable for a game where you're playing the hero as a damage-dealing core, as opposed to how she's traditionally picked as a frontline core, who only really needs to do enough damage to be a threat, while a backline secondary core like Invoker or high-damage supports like Lina or AA bring the real killing power.
lolfail9001 you're really underselling Heart here, but it's understandable given that your understanding of the hero is as a backline core that uses Refresher+Radi+Diffu as a high-damage source. As a frontline core, Heart has value in that it gives Spec the most rounded possible combat ability at 2 items with Heart+Radi.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
I just don't understand why you would treat a hero with an ability like Dispersion as a backline core.
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because he doesn't respect the damage that dispersion does.
and yeah sorry, I had to write that quick and just shouted the first two heroes that came to mind. But for centaur you get like blink/pipe then either a shivas or the heart situation depending. In a 35 minute game I think it's a pretty reasonable progression for a core. As an aside, I don't play centaur at all though. I could be underselling what other items he might need. But yeah, heart or BKB on AM, but one of them is without a doubt core. Spectre/PL would probably count too, and I guess naga carry assuming you don't need the linkens.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
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On average per game, it does barely less than your right clicks. I don't get how that proves your point. It's still significant damage and in a single fight with a heart you are talking probably 300-600 damage to each hero depending on their distance if they target you. I imagine in the pro stats you listed, there is less targeting of a spectre with a heart.
But that's it my last bit on this. We are running in circles because you like going against the grain without a great reason, and I'm not going to waste my time convincing you otherwise.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
On average per game, it does barely less than your right clicks. I don't get how that proves your point. It's still significant damage and in a single fight with a heart you are talking probably 300-600 damage to each hero depending on their distance if they target you. I imagine in the pro stats you listed, there is less targeting of a spectre with a heart.
But that's it my last bit on this. We are running in circles because you like going against the grain without a great reason, and I'm not going to waste my time convincing you otherwise.
Well, to each their own. I'll just note that this thing about spectre being sort of ignorable is the greatest reason for my dislike to heart, it does not add anything except making you harder to kill while not giving a reason to target spectre on it's own, and radiance does not always do the job.
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dispersion shouldn't be underrated.
Dispersion is pure damage, which is amazing. Lv 4 Dispersion gives her about 30% more ehp, so a 2500 life spectre is going to dish out around 500+ pure damage if she is focused to 0 or close to. Combined with radiance burn, and disregarding right clicks, thats easily upwards of 1k aoe damage with the illusions doing whatever they do.
Spec is actually really mobile as well with dagger (and probably some supports who like keeping spectre alive), so its not out of the ordinary to soak 2k damage, dagger out, and regen with heart to come back and clean up. not to mention someone on your team probably has a mek or healing skill to add to the mix.
But seriously, in any situation, pure damage is ridiculously good. if the game calls for it, heart is a great item on spectre, even just for the fact that it basically gives her 30% more on top of what heart already gives.
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a lot of this hero is about being good at realitying.
early game: gank another lane with ulti, reality back to ur own lane!
late game: i have done 5 realities for a rampage.
etc...
i think rad/refresher is the way to go unless enemy have like am+weaver or 2 rly strong cores than dont want to teamfight and split push all day.
ive tried skadi/satanic found it lackluster
hearts ok but get it only if u actually need it
manta/diffusal/basher are the items that allow u to fight other carries
vanguard is ok
i prefer treads over phase, but i get phase in games i think it wud be better
again, just get good at realitying, u dont want to pay 135 for tp scroll back to safelane at lvl 6.
also i almost nvr get a value point in dispersion. fuck that.
4-4-0 usually, if i think i need extra help in lane i get stats over dispersion...
sometimes i max dagger first other times i max desolate... depends on how the i feel the game will flow
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On July 03 2014 04:54 ChunderBoy wrote:
a lot of this hero is about being good at realitying.
early game: gank another lane with ulti, reality back to ur own lane!
late game: i have done 5 realities for a rampage.
etc...
i think rad/refresher is the way to go unless enemy have like am+weaver or 2 rly strong cores than dont want to teamfight and split push all day.
ive tried skadi/satanic found it lackluster
hearts ok but get it only if u actually need it
manta/diffusal/basher are the items that allow u to fight other carries
vanguard is ok
i prefer treads over phase, but i get phase in games i think it wud be better
again, just get good at realitying, u dont want to pay 135 for tp scroll back to safelane at lvl 6.
also i almost nvr get a value point in dispersion. fuck that.
4-4-0 usually, if i think i need extra help in lane i get stats over dispersion...
sometimes i max dagger first other times i max desolate... depends on how the i feel the game will flow
On that note I think I'm going to see my way out for a bit....
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 03 2014 04:54 ChunderBoy wrote:
a lot of this hero is about being good at realitying.
early game: gank another lane with ulti, reality back to ur own lane!
Welp, i am actually not certain how you can possibly do that unless you haunt when the gank target is almost dead already.
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On July 03 2014 06:05 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 04:54 ChunderBoy wrote:
a lot of this hero is about being good at realitying.
early game: gank another lane with ulti, reality back to ur own lane!
Welp, i am actually not certain how you can possibly do that unless you haunt when the gank target is almost dead already.
good ganks dont last more than 5 seconds.
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I've been following this discussion a bit and I'm wondering: so all in all, what are the tradeoffs between heart and skadi?
It appears that skadi would be really good because you get almost the same amount of hp as heart, your illusions get stats too, and you get a slow too right? The extra armor also helps tankiness. The only tradeoffs would be the lack of sustain by regening out of battle which you'd get with heart, and you'd also lose the diffusal orb unless you like drop the skadi, then pick up the diffusal then pick up the skadi(?)
But a LOT of people say that heart is generally superior or otherwise extremely good. Is the sustain that much more important/the bonus amount of hp on you and the illusions? What makes heart so much better--does the extra damage dispersed make up for everything else?
Also apparently diffusal isn't that great an item on him?
It's definitely situational right, so I was just wondering about builds/situationals/pros and cons etc.I love spectre so I def wanna learn more about how to play him well ^^
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a lot of the time you'll finish fights with low HP, and having heart lets you kill towers instead of forcing you to go back to heal
300+ extra hp isn't exactly negligible either
spectre doesn't usually have issues chasing with dagger (and diffusal) anyway
diffusal is pretty good on spec, it's just mediocre compared to other items (primarily radi manta heart refresh)
obviously there's a pretty big price difference but it doesn't change teamfights nearly as much as one of the bigger items
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On July 03 2014 05:43 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 04:54 ChunderBoy wrote:
a lot of this hero is about being good at realitying.
early game: gank another lane with ulti, reality back to ur own lane!
late game: i have done 5 realities for a rampage.
etc...
i think rad/refresher is the way to go unless enemy have like am+weaver or 2 rly strong cores than dont want to teamfight and split push all day.
ive tried skadi/satanic found it lackluster
hearts ok but get it only if u actually need it
manta/diffusal/basher are the items that allow u to fight other carries
vanguard is ok
i prefer treads over phase, but i get phase in games i think it wud be better
again, just get good at realitying, u dont want to pay 135 for tp scroll back to safelane at lvl 6.
also i almost nvr get a value point in dispersion. fuck that.
4-4-0 usually, if i think i need extra help in lane i get stats over dispersion...
sometimes i max dagger first other times i max desolate... depends on how the i feel the game will flow On that note I think I'm going to see my way out for a bit....
That's what I do too, but 1 point dispersion at 10. Stats all the way later.
The only merit of heart over skadi is the regen. And because spectre is not a life steal hero, most players favour heart just for it. Skadi is always better, but the lack of regen turns people off.
Satanic is almost like a late late situational item that there's no point in discussing it.
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hearts pretty good in slow sieges
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was a non-believer until i tried rad-refresher in 2 games..
rad-refresher absolutely wrecks enemy supports esp if they are paper supports that require good positioning in teamfights to survive such as rubick/CM, double haunt is going to destroy you no matter how good your positioning is. The downside is that your team HAS to clean up after your double haunt or you are just going to become a walking creep with radiance.
heart is needed when you know double haunt can't kill the opponent team outright like if they have a lot of cores on their team, either tri core or quad core heroes(in pubs at least) and you have burst damage coming out from your team while you just soak up damage and just burn everyone to death with radiance/dispersion. Also if you survive a gank long enough you would be back to full HP again. Although i've read somewhere that Skadi actually gives more EHP than heart at about 1.6k hp-ish and above but im not sure if its true or not.
Speaking of items what do you guys think about urn on spectre? Giving strength, mana regen + a heal/DoT nuke seems to be really good as an early game fighting item if your team needs to fight early and u can soak up alot of charges that you don't even need to go back fountain to heal.
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On July 03 2014 15:38 Invictus wrote:
was a non-believer until i tried rad-refresher in 2 games..
rad-refresher absolutely wrecks enemy supports esp if they are paper supports that require good positioning in teamfights to survive such as rubick/CM, double haunt is going to destroy you no matter how good your positioning is. The downside is that your team HAS to clean up after your double haunt or you are just going to become a walking creep with radiance.
heart is needed when you know double haunt can't kill the opponent team outright like if they have a lot of cores on their team, either tri core or quad core heroes(in pubs at least) and you have burst damage coming out from your team while you just soak up damage and just burn everyone to death with radiance/dispersion. Also if you survive a gank long enough you would be back to full HP again. Although i've read somewhere that Skadi actually gives more EHP than heart at about 1.6k hp-ish and above but im not sure if its true or not.
Speaking of items what do you guys think about urn on spectre? Giving strength, mana regen + a heal/DoT nuke seems to be really good as an early game fighting item if your team needs to fight early and u can soak up alot of charges that you don't even need to go back fountain to heal.
Burning has done Urn Spectre before so it's not unheard of
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On July 03 2014 09:22 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 05:43 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 03 2014 04:54 ChunderBoy wrote:
a lot of this hero is about being good at realitying.
early game: gank another lane with ulti, reality back to ur own lane!
late game: i have done 5 realities for a rampage.
etc...
i think rad/refresher is the way to go unless enemy have like am+weaver or 2 rly strong cores than dont want to teamfight and split push all day.
ive tried skadi/satanic found it lackluster
hearts ok but get it only if u actually need it
manta/diffusal/basher are the items that allow u to fight other carries
vanguard is ok
i prefer treads over phase, but i get phase in games i think it wud be better
again, just get good at realitying, u dont want to pay 135 for tp scroll back to safelane at lvl 6.
also i almost nvr get a value point in dispersion. fuck that.
4-4-0 usually, if i think i need extra help in lane i get stats over dispersion...
sometimes i max dagger first other times i max desolate... depends on how the i feel the game will flow On that note I think I'm going to see my way out for a bit.... That's what I do too, but 1 point dispersion at 10. Stats all the way later. The only merit of heart over skadi is the regen. And because spectre is not a life steal hero, most players favour heart just for it. Skadi is always better, but the lack of regen turns people off. Satanic is almost like a late late situational item that there's no point in discussing it.
Once you reach ~1000HP, dispersion is going to make you more survivable than stats (+bonus damage) so I don't understand your logic. You really don't need the mana because none of his spells are spammable.
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On July 03 2014 16:33 tauon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 09:22 DucK- wrote:On July 03 2014 05:43 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 03 2014 04:54 ChunderBoy wrote:
a lot of this hero is about being good at realitying.
early game: gank another lane with ulti, reality back to ur own lane!
late game: i have done 5 realities for a rampage.
etc...
i think rad/refresher is the way to go unless enemy have like am+weaver or 2 rly strong cores than dont want to teamfight and split push all day.
ive tried skadi/satanic found it lackluster
hearts ok but get it only if u actually need it
manta/diffusal/basher are the items that allow u to fight other carries
vanguard is ok
i prefer treads over phase, but i get phase in games i think it wud be better
again, just get good at realitying, u dont want to pay 135 for tp scroll back to safelane at lvl 6.
also i almost nvr get a value point in dispersion. fuck that.
4-4-0 usually, if i think i need extra help in lane i get stats over dispersion...
sometimes i max dagger first other times i max desolate... depends on how the i feel the game will flow On that note I think I'm going to see my way out for a bit.... That's what I do too, but 1 point dispersion at 10. Stats all the way later. The only merit of heart over skadi is the regen. And because spectre is not a life steal hero, most players favour heart just for it. Skadi is always better, but the lack of regen turns people off. Satanic is almost like a late late situational item that there's no point in discussing it. Once you reach ~1000HP, dispersion is going to make you more survivable than stats (+bonus damage) so I don't understand your logic. You really don't need the mana because none of his spells are spammable.
Umm in case you have not been following, I strongly advocate radiance rfo build. But yea if in going for the cookie cutter route, definitely go dispersion over stats.
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On July 03 2014 15:38 Invictus wrote:
was a non-believer until i tried rad-refresher in 2 games..
rad-refresher absolutely wrecks enemy supports esp if they are paper supports that require good positioning in teamfights to survive such as rubick/CM, double haunt is going to destroy you no matter how good your positioning is. The downside is that your team HAS to clean up after your double haunt or you are just going to become a walking creep with radiance.
heart is needed when you know double haunt can't kill the opponent team outright like if they have a lot of cores on their team, either tri core or quad core heroes(in pubs at least) and you have burst damage coming out from your team while you just soak up damage and just burn everyone to death with radiance/dispersion. Also if you survive a gank long enough you would be back to full HP again. Although i've read somewhere that Skadi actually gives more EHP than heart at about 1.6k hp-ish and above but im not sure if its true or not.
Speaking of items what do you guys think about urn on spectre? Giving strength, mana regen + a heal/DoT nuke seems to be really good as an early game fighting item if your team needs to fight early and u can soak up alot of charges that you don't even need to go back fountain to heal.
I either go roh or urn -> radiance depend on how I think the game will be going.
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United States47024 Posts
If you're going Rad->RF you definitely need the mana from Stats.
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On July 04 2014 01:13 TheYango wrote:
If you're going Rad->RF you definitely need the mana from Stats.
u rly dont int treads helps a bit. and u have 7 seconds to mana regen with refresher
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What's up with all these luxury concerns about what you're gonna build after Radiance. If you're playing real games, you should be worrying about laning and getting your Radiance in the first place! :D
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 04 2014 01:38 Trustworthy-Tony wrote:
What's up with all these luxury concerns about what you're gonna build after Radiance. If you're playing real games, you should be worrying about laning and getting your Radiance in the first place! :D
That's concern out of land: how to lane melee carry with no lane presence. Simple: don't pick spectre until it is too late to counter the pick. Supports help too.
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Is there a specific time you look for where you are no longer willing to go radiance? Like if you havent gotten your Relic by 20-25min? Or do you still just suck it up and go deep?
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On July 04 2014 02:04 12ozSkilletDota wrote:
Is there a specific time you look for where you are no longer willing to go radiance? Like if you havent gotten your Relic by 20-25min? Or do you still just suck it up and go deep?
in one game i was so shutdown that i had phase+bracer+pms for the longest time. i even sold the bracer to get my 40min radiance. i had 6 items at 55minutes... go figure
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On July 04 2014 02:04 12ozSkilletDota wrote:
Is there a specific time you look for where you are no longer willing to go radiance? Like if you havent gotten your Relic by 20-25min? Or do you still just suck it up and go deep?
If they have no blink initiators, and are like a 5 core, then maybe at around 30-35 give up on it. But honestly, you probably lost if that's the case. The radiance is great and accelerates your farm quite a lot, it's fight presence is incredible and it stops blink initiators. But if you are ever close to the relic, don't give up on it. If it's like 35 minutes in and you have 1k gold, just start on the diffusal I guess, but honestly at that point you probably lost already and your best bet to get back in is the radiance. I've been getting shitstomped games, get my 30 minute radiance and all of a sudden we are winning teamfights 8k/10k down.
also I guess if you are having a real issue with kiting, since diffusal let's you lock people down. Even so, it's still radiance first then just an earlier diffusal before manta/heart.
On July 04 2014 02:08 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 02:04 12ozSkilletDota wrote:
Is there a specific time you look for where you are no longer willing to go radiance? Like if you havent gotten your Relic by 20-25min? Or do you still just suck it up and go deep? in one game i was so shutdown that i had phase+bracer+pms for the longest time. i even sold the bracer to get my 40min radiance. i had 6 items at 55minutes... go figure
That's like 1200GPM over 15 minutes lol. 4 items at 5k a piece is about 20k over 15 minutes.
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On July 04 2014 02:08 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 02:04 12ozSkilletDota wrote:
Is there a specific time you look for where you are no longer willing to go radiance? Like if you havent gotten your Relic by 20-25min? Or do you still just suck it up and go deep? in one game i was so shutdown that i had phase+bracer+pms for the longest time. i even sold the bracer to get my 40min radiance. i had 6 items at 55minutes... go figure
Jesus, I really hope people don't take posts like this seriously...
On July 04 2014 02:04 12ozSkilletDota wrote:
Is there a specific time you look for where you are no longer willing to go radiance? Like if you havent gotten your Relic by 20-25min? Or do you still just suck it up and go deep?
if you can't get Radiance by minute 30, I advise you not to go for it, but try with some smaller items and try to snowball with ganks and kills. If you are shut down that hard, chances are high that you won't be able to do anything with Radiance at 30-35 minutes, and they won't just sit in their base and let you to come back with farm. When they push, and you just have Boots and Radiance in your inventory, you will be pretty much useless outside of your ultimate.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 04 2014 03:11 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 02:08 ChunderBoy wrote:On July 04 2014 02:04 12ozSkilletDota wrote:
Is there a specific time you look for where you are no longer willing to go radiance? Like if you havent gotten your Relic by 20-25min? Or do you still just suck it up and go deep? in one game i was so shutdown that i had phase+bracer+pms for the longest time. i even sold the bracer to get my 40min radiance. i had 6 items at 55minutes... go figure Jesus, I really hope people don't take posts like this seriously...
I doubt anyone can really take a claim on spectre reaching 1300+ gpm after 40 minute phase-half of bracer-pms-radiance seriously. That's it, if those 6 items were phase-radiance+4 luxuries and not phase-radiance-tp-tp-tp-tp /s
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it is so damn unfair to read beesa's post....because you need his farming skill to pull off the stuffs he said lol
Radiance+heart is the best combo for spec, regardless what timing it is in the game, well obviously if you played a solo farming game and keep feeding to try to save for that 3800 then you lose the game regardless what you do anyway (because you are simply not a good enough carry player, not because of X build on X carry hero).
Regarding refresher....I still think that if you 'needed' that item to win the game then you win the game regardless with whatever big item at that price tag, unless the opponents have something like 3 supportive heroes line up all with hexes so 2x haunt+radi would be ideal since you cant really go near them (but again if thats the case you might as well get a 2nd bkb/heart/bfly).
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On July 04 2014 03:16 BurningSera wrote:
it is so damn unfair to read beesa's post....because you need his farming skill to pull off the stuffs he said lol
Radiance+heart is the best combo for spec, regardless what timing it is in the game, well obviously if you played a solo farming game and keep feeding to try to save for that 3800 then you lose the game regardless what you do anyway (because you are simply not a good enough carry player, not because of X build on X carry hero).
Regarding refresher....I still think that if you 'needed' that item to win the game then you win the game regardless with whatever big item at that price tag, unless the opponents have something like 3 supportive heroes line up all with hexes so 2x haunt+radi would be ideal since you cant really go near them (but again if thats the case you might as well get a 2nd bkb/heart/bfly).
For all of his timings, just add a solid 2-4 minutes. Its probably reflective of the skill level you play in relative to his anyways.
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Holy shit, tried radirefresh, 31 kills...
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Im having more succes without radiancefirst then with one atm, it feels hard to farm a radiance without losing to much that early and its boring. Ofcourse i suck, but it feels the pubgames have shifted to even earlier fighting then they used to and that means that i have even less time to farm a radiance on skinny cores. So im doing this easier chasing+statsbuild, it gives spectre full chasing/killing potential on earlier levels and he can stay pretty relevant.
skills : 1110 --> 4111 --> 4412 --> 4443 (i bought maxing dagger first from erasme' post here).
basic items : PT + Drums + Diff blade + dust (after i finished DB the invisibility becomes a factor, also slows) + S&Y
extended items : Halberd+Manta combo (my fav) or something with a HoT+Butterfly+Refresher, all a bit gamedependant.
Just plain slow+speed+stats with some extra mid/lategame utility doesnt feel that bad at all and a halberd can be a lifesaver, a bit wierd but in the trench this build seems to be OP until proven otherwise, haha!
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Radiance is almost always better to get if you have the free farm, but given how hard it is to get free farm on a Spectre and how volatile lanes can be in pubs, the drums > DB is definitely more stable. I wouldn't go S&Y though, Spectre already has chase built into his kit with Spectral Dagger. Not worth delaying your Manta. Halberd is really more of a support or semi-carry item than a carry item. Would rather build a Heart. More health = more dispersion damage. If you still want evasion after that get Butterfly.
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Never ever saw a reason in maxing dagger over desolate, and I hardly get dispersion before 10.
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Well. Did you see ti4 final? Had you drafted a spectre, and maxed desolate first, you wouldve lost in 10min instead of 15.
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On July 25 2014 18:16 Erasme wrote:
Well. Did you see ti4 final? Had you drafted a spectre, and maxed desolate first, you wouldve lost in 10min instead of 15.
What game are you talking about.
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I didn't play in TI4 finals, I didn't draft spectre but I max desolate first.
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Seems good reasoning skyro. I just like S&Y after the diffusal because its an easy to farm item (<1k gold) and a S&Y strenghens that "chasing-cheetah" early/midgame fighting playstyle. The halberd is certainly wierd i agree, but when you allready own a S&Y the active+25% evasion for only 1800 gold feels nice in most games. The active has granted me secure kills on fed enemies that i normally could not manfight 1v1. I get alot of games where an enemy hero is ballin out of control and most other enemies are shit. If i can halberd that hero every fight i won the game singlehandedly just by building a halberd. The S&Y into halberd is ofcourse situational and better applicable in AP games then in CM/CD. As in CM/CD games you will mostly be granted a trilane/freefarm to secure yourself that easy early radiance. I assume gamemodes impact the effectivity of builds alot, the "chasing cheetah" is my AP build
The reason why i max dagger over desolate Duck, is because i believe that at lvl 7 its more impactfull (read:more certainty to kill). Our whole chasing party benefits from the slow the dagger provides, with dagger i can secure kills for our team because its a good slow and with maxed desolate i can mostly leech a kill from someone elses slow. I like to be less dependant on teamm8's to enhance the effectivity of using my ultimate. Maxing dagger gives me more influence that the ultimates from lvl7 and onward are not wasted when i have standard PT-movementspeed.
E: I think that if i would go phaseboots first i could opt to max desolate at lvl 7, as the boots provide an early speeddifferential between myself and the target. Lets say the enemy lineup has a jungler that i want to catch, then i could opt for a maxed desolate+phaseboots early game,as the desolate+pboots give more solokill- but less teamfightpotential around lvl7.
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The thing about Halberd is the active is completely nullified by BKB, and you don't really need the passive. It's kind of like Orchid in a sense, you get it more as a snowball semi-carry for a mid-game timing to snowball harder before BKBs come out. It's not really meant to be a hard carry item. Manta gives you a self dispel and some pseudo single-target burst damage, both things that Spectre sorely needs. Manta also speeds up his farm quite a bit if you got Radiance first. It's not worth delaying such an important item.
Phase vs. Treads I think that's a personal choice. There's merits to both I feel.
Personally I go 4-1-1 too though. Your lv1 haunt is going to be so weak regardless so I feel it's better to increase your chances of at least getting 1 kill and a max spectral dagger does that.
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On July 26 2014 01:49 Skyro wrote:
The thing about Halberd is the active is completely nullified by BKB, and you don't really need the passive. It's kind of like Orchid in a sense, you get it more as a snowball semi-carry for a mid-game timing to snowball harder before BKBs come out. It's not really meant to be a hard carry item. Manta gives you a self dispel and some pseudo single-target burst damage, both things that Spectre sorely needs. Manta also speeds up his farm quite a bit if you got Radiance first. It's not worth delaying such an important item.
Phase vs. Treads I think that's a personal choice. There's merits to both I feel.
Personally I go 4-1-1 too though. Your lv1 haunt is going to be so weak regardless so I feel it's better to increase your chances of at least getting 1 kill and a max spectral dagger does that.
I've actually started to do 4-3-0-1 build at level 7, and it gives a huge amount of kill potential, I don't really feel the value point in dispersion is THAT valuable. The teamfight impact you have with 1 level of dispersion in early teamfights is almost non existant imho. If you need to come to teamfights that early i feel you didn't pick the right hero for the draft/teampicks.
I also think that radiance rushing is very hard in pubs unless you get a really good duo support. Often supports have no clue how to properly force the offlaner(s) out of the lane. I really like the Phase boots into Drums into Diffusal build because when you hit level 9 and go 4-4-0-1 and you haunt into a small skirmish, you often end up killing all of them with max dagger and desolate.
Maybe it's because i'm only 3800 MMR, but in this range, radiance is very hard to farm up quickly, so building smaller fight items makes you snowball and more impactfull early on. If i really get free farm, and the supports know what they are doing, i go radiance, but still i don't feel like your farming increases that much more with it over a diffusal blade.
I hav to try the radiance refresher build one day, and maybe it's 2 really strong, but different paths to take, either go radiance refresher, or go drums diffusal manta heart. Ofcourse i didn't take into account the niche blademail builds, but i personally think it's too situational to play that as a standard build in AP.
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On July 26 2014 09:39 TechSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 01:49 Skyro wrote:
The thing about Halberd is the active is completely nullified by BKB, and you don't really need the passive. It's kind of like Orchid in a sense, you get it more as a snowball semi-carry for a mid-game timing to snowball harder before BKBs come out. It's not really meant to be a hard carry item. Manta gives you a self dispel and some pseudo single-target burst damage, both things that Spectre sorely needs. Manta also speeds up his farm quite a bit if you got Radiance first. It's not worth delaying such an important item.
Phase vs. Treads I think that's a personal choice. There's merits to both I feel.
Personally I go 4-1-1 too though. Your lv1 haunt is going to be so weak regardless so I feel it's better to increase your chances of at least getting 1 kill and a max spectral dagger does that. I've actually started to do 4-3-0-1 build at level 7, and it gives a huge amount of kill potential, I don't really feel the value point in dispersion is THAT valuable. The teamfight impact you have with 1 level of dispersion in early teamfights is almost non existant imho. If you need to come to teamfights that early i feel you didn't pick the right hero for the draft/teampicks. I also think that radiance rushing is very hard in pubs unless you get a really good duo support. Often supports have no clue how to properly force the offlaner(s) out of the lane. I really like the Phase boots into Drums into Diffusal build because when you hit level 9 and go 4-4-0-1 and you haunt into a small skirmish, you often end up killing all of them with max dagger and desolate. Maybe it's because i'm only 3800 MMR, but in this range, radiance is very hard to farm up quickly, so building smaller fight items makes you snowball and more impactfull early on. If i really get free farm, and the supports know what they are doing, i go radiance, but still i don't feel like your farming increases that much more with it over a diffusal blade. I hav to try the radiance refresher build one day, and maybe it's 2 really strong, but different paths to take, either go radiance refresher, or go drums diffusal manta heart. Ofcourse i didn't take into account the niche blademail builds, but i personally think it's too situational to play that as a standard build in AP.
You don't pick one level in dispersion because of its damage, it is minimal, but because of damage absorbtion. On level one it reduces damage on you by 10%, while every other level gives you 4% more. That is the reason it is called the value-point and even without team fights, you are taking less damage while being harassed or when ganked.
I can't remember how many times I've survived with dagger going through the trees but leaving with like 10-30 HP and I would be dead without that one point in dispersion. Of course you shouldn't pick it every game, but a lot of the time enemy team will try really hard to shut down Spectre and in the end you will do better with it.
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If i opt for a vangaurd build, i would not skill dispersion early. If i try for a non vangaurd build (like i do with the cheetah) the valuepoint saves me 250g for a stout shield at lvl1, which is alot of gold.
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That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
If you skill dispersion at level 1 you have zero contribution to level 1 fights, including attempted kills on the offlaner. The dagger slow is nontrivial when one or two extra autoattacks can make a kill. Dispersion also gives a lot less damage mitigation in lane than a stout shield, so I'm not sure why you consider them an either-or.
Personally I think the value point in dispersion is always going to be worth it unless it's a game where there is absolutely 0 chance of spec dying. 10% EHP is no joke. Even then I think it's still helpful for farming. Boots->radiance spec can lose quite a lot of HP in the jungle.
Even with vanguard, the point of going vanguard is to contribute to early fights by being a surprisingly large frontliner. Dispersion makes a large contribution to spectre's bulk, especially with vanguard, so I don't see why you would choose to spend money on tank but skip her tank skill.
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I thought that stout and dispersion stack in a wierd way. If the stout shield blocks damage, the dispersion effect is alot less. If my assumption is true, it would mean that a skillpoint in dispersion at early levels will have more value in a stoutless itembuild as it blocks & reflects more incomming damage.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 26 2014 19:35 govie wrote:
I thought that stout and dispersion stack in a wierd way. If the stout shield blocks damage, the dispersion effect is alot less. If my assumption is true, it would mean that a skillpoint in dispersion at early levels will have more value in a stoutless itembuild as it blocks & reflects more incomming damage.
Rule of thumb: relative effects do not matter early in the game, it's absolute ones where it's at (like nukes, fixed damage mitigation of stout/living armor). Granted, i myself stopped getting dispersion early, since it actually helps to fight more having higher level in desolate and dagger.
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Block damage reduction occurs first, then dispersion reflect is calculated. Dispersion early on is really for the damage mitigation aspect, and 10% EHP is still 10% EHP, regardless if you have a block item or not. Or to think of it another way, while each "trigger" of dispersion is less if you blocked some damage, you take more hits/triggers and it still ends up being 10% EHP.
I absolutely despise vanguard on Spectre though. 11/10 times I would go Drums instead for early fighting potential.
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On July 27 2014 02:57 Skyro wrote:
Block damage reduction occurs first, then dispersion reflect is calculated. Dispersion early on is really for the damage mitigation aspect, and 10% EHP is still 10% EHP, regardless if you have a block item or not. Or to think of it another way, while each "trigger" of dispersion is less if you blocked some damage, you take more hits/triggers and it still ends up being 10% EHP.
I absolutely despise vanguard on Spectre though. 11/10 times I would go Drums instead for early fighting potential.
i feel that getting no HP regen items on spectre makes him go to base more often then i care about. A vangaurd doesn't even delay your first big item by much, because it increases your jungling speed alot, and you can be in more small skirmishes because you will always be above 80% hp, and you aare really tanky so ganking you is suddenly so much harder. When i go boots into drums i end up going to base when i went through jungle twice.
It's not always save to farm on lane due to how easy you are to gank, so unless you have a team that fights 4v5 constantly and lets you farm lanes all the time, you need regen to sustain jungling as well.
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United States47024 Posts
The effectiveness of Vanguard vs. Drums as an early fighting item is dependent on lineups. Vanguard is more effective as a fighting item when your teammates are largely backliners who have damage but lack straight-up fighting ability. Drums are more effective when your teammates have more disables and are more self-sufficient, but lack burst damage, requiring you to be able to clean up and chase.
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It sort of seems counter-intuitive to me to pick Spectre if you know you're going to get ganked or have to jungle a lot, but I assume you mean yolo queue where you have incompetent teammates or the enemy team tries to counter pick your spectre with some ganking heroes or something.
But assuming you do have to jungle a lot why wouldn't you just go Vlads? Better build up, jungles faster than Vanguard, and scales better into the late game. Spectre is really a team fighter (which is why I like drums) so team items can be quite nice on him.
And if you need early defense for ganks you can go PMS + casual Vit booster, which can later turn into your heart. I'm just not a fan of Vanguard unless you need to do early tower pushes to tank tower damage (e.g. your team is trying to effectively end the game before the late game ever comes). I've never considered it a jungling/farming item.
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On July 27 2014 04:55 TechSc2 wrote:
When i go boots into drums i end up going to base when i went through jungle twice.
It's not always save to farm on lane due to how easy you are to gank, so unless you have a team that fights 4v5 constantly and lets you farm lanes all the time, you need regen to sustain jungling as well.
I dont know about other builds/mmr tiers, but with an early fighting build i try to cycle a spectre from lvl7 and onwards : Ultimate --> fight --> farm/fight back to the fountain trading hp/mana for gold along the way --> buy stuff, mana/heal up and ultimate again.
It feels pretty save to trade hp/mana for gold because i just killed some hero's on that part of the map and i'm slowly farming back to the fountain. A 120 second cycle with an early fighting build doesnt need mana/hp regen or lifesteal, it just needs a mana/hppool that big enough to execute the 120second cycle.
I dont know if higher skilled players also try to cycle spectre, but for a scrub like me it works pretty well and i dont need lifesteal/mana/hp regen items.
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10 % damage reduction is 1/0.9 increase in EHP aka 11.111111111111111111111111111... %
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Or just get an urn.
The reason I don't get dispersion till 10 is that I prefer maximising my offensive potential. Its not like I'm getting killed or ganked at random places that I need more ehp. If they want to kill me, they have to dive the tower for it. If they can do so, the extra ehp probably wouldn't matter anyway.
Of course I'm not that rigid over not getting dispersion before 10. Its just for most cases, its a nono for me.
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In games where you feel like you aren't going to get a quick enough Radiance (it's going past 20 mins) or your team is losing early and you need to get yourself online quicker what items do you like to pick up?
I've experimented with ditching Radiance and going for Drums + Diffusal + Manta which seems to be reasonable damage. My issue with this is that without Radiance you have no flash farming ability at all and I kind of feel like I need something especially if I have to take the jungle earlier.
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I don't really see drums/diffu as the kind of thing you pick up when your radiance timing has failed. They're things you get earlier when you know you shouldn't even try for radiance, in order to contribute to specific things your team is doing.
If you try for rad, fail, and then go back for drums when you're already behind, you end up with a timing-based aggressive stats item when the enemy cores have one-and-a-half majors and generally lose. Drums is a pretty crappy catchup item in most cases.
Really, spectre with radiance and spectre without might as well be totally different heroes. I feel like you're generally better off deciding to play battle spec from the get-go, or just gritting your teeth as radiance spec and grinding out the 35 minute relic.
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On July 30 2014 21:49 Belisarius wrote:
I don't really see drums/diffu as the kind of thing you pick up when your radiance timing has failed. They're things you get earlier when you know you shouldn't even try for radiance, in order to contribute to specific things your team is doing.
If you try for rad, fail, and then go back for drums when you're already behind, you end up with a timing-based aggressive stats item when the enemy cores have one-and-a-half majors and generally lose. Drums is a pretty crappy catchup item in most cases.
Really, spectre with radiance and spectre without might as well be totally different heroes. I feel like you're generally better off deciding to play battle spec from the get-go, or just gritting your teeth as radiance spec and grinding out the 35 minute relic.
Diffusal is fine though. But late drums is crap on any hero. That's why I hate when pub roaming/offlane mirana buys it all the time.
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On July 30 2014 21:49 Belisarius wrote:
Really, spectre with radiance and spectre without might as well be totally different heroes. I feel like you're generally better off deciding to play battle spec from the get-go, or just gritting your teeth as radiance spec and grinding out the 35 minute relic.
I agree with this.
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On July 30 2014 22:38 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 21:49 Belisarius wrote:
I don't really see drums/diffu as the kind of thing you pick up when your radiance timing has failed. They're things you get earlier when you know you shouldn't even try for radiance, in order to contribute to specific things your team is doing.
If you try for rad, fail, and then go back for drums when you're already behind, you end up with a timing-based aggressive stats item when the enemy cores have one-and-a-half majors and generally lose. Drums is a pretty crappy catchup item in most cases.
Really, spectre with radiance and spectre without might as well be totally different heroes. I feel like you're generally better off deciding to play battle spec from the get-go, or just gritting your teeth as radiance spec and grinding out the 35 minute relic. Diffusal is fine though. But late drums is crap on any hero. That's why I hate when pub roaming/offlane mirana buys it all the time.
That's true, but if you're bailing on a relic you're usually looking at pretty much a naked diffusal while behind, and at that point you just explode if you try to man up with it. Sure, you do get a bit more damage on your ult, but I can't see too many situations where that's going to reverse a game when the real spec can barely fight.
Ironically, I feel Spectre's only real recovery item is radiance itself.
On July 30 2014 21:31 Cerberus2589 wrote:
I've experimented with ditching Radiance and going for Drums + Diffusal + Manta which seems to be reasonable damage. My issue with this is that without Radiance you have no flash farming ability at all and I kind of feel like I need something especially if I have to take the jungle earlier.
On this again, personally I quite like (drums/vanguard) -> diffu for #GameIsHard games, but the point is to recognise the situation early and leverage the minor item while it's still useful.
If you turn the early fights with drums you can farm the jungle okayish once diffu and diffu->yasha is up, but you have to recognise that you're just doing that in your spare time. By buying those items, you have elected to become a combat carry, and you need to supplement your farm with objectives and kills because - as you say - you can't really flashfarm.
Battle spec is really quite dependent on her team. You need to encourage them to keep forcing fights and trusting you to Haunt in from the jungle, and that can be a bit hard to get across.
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On July 30 2014 22:38 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 21:49 Belisarius wrote:
I don't really see drums/diffu as the kind of thing you pick up when your radiance timing has failed. They're things you get earlier when you know you shouldn't even try for radiance, in order to contribute to specific things your team is doing.
If you try for rad, fail, and then go back for drums when you're already behind, you end up with a timing-based aggressive stats item when the enemy cores have one-and-a-half majors and generally lose. Drums is a pretty crappy catchup item in most cases.
Really, spectre with radiance and spectre without might as well be totally different heroes. I feel like you're generally better off deciding to play battle spec from the get-go, or just gritting your teeth as radiance spec and grinding out the 35 minute relic. Diffusal is fine though. But late drums is crap on any hero. That's why I hate when pub roaming/offlane mirana buys it all the time.
I don't see why that makes sense. The drums upgrade almost exclusively offers scaling stats, which are useful at any point in the game. The active is useful in most situations except if you are farming neutrals or something.
I think people are generally too nazi about buying certain items before certain timings. I don't agree with that. Dota is a too dynamic game and your income is gonna be very variable regardless what you play.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 31 2014 19:30 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 22:38 DucK- wrote:On July 30 2014 21:49 Belisarius wrote:
I don't really see drums/diffu as the kind of thing you pick up when your radiance timing has failed. They're things you get earlier when you know you shouldn't even try for radiance, in order to contribute to specific things your team is doing.
If you try for rad, fail, and then go back for drums when you're already behind, you end up with a timing-based aggressive stats item when the enemy cores have one-and-a-half majors and generally lose. Drums is a pretty crappy catchup item in most cases.
Really, spectre with radiance and spectre without might as well be totally different heroes. I feel like you're generally better off deciding to play battle spec from the get-go, or just gritting your teeth as radiance spec and grinding out the 35 minute relic. Diffusal is fine though. But late drums is crap on any hero. That's why I hate when pub roaming/offlane mirana buys it all the time. I don't see why that makes sense. The drums upgrade almost exclusively offers scaling stats, which are useful at any point in the game. The active is useful in most situations except if you are farming neutrals or something. I think people are generally too nazi about buying certain items before certain timings. I don't agree with that. Dota is a too dynamic game and your income is gonna be very variable regardless what you play.
Drum is win more item, not an item you should fall back on. Especially in case of spec, when radiance is both the come back mechanic and the win more one.
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Mediocre items have less impact the later you get them. I believe a too late drums is almost just as questionable as a 12 minute midas first item. Drums offer advantages at certain timings, thats why i buy the item. If i wanted stats, i would try nulls+bracer or something similar. We havent seen loda buying bracers. nulls, drums or other cheap statoriented items after +30 minutes now have we.
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On July 31 2014 20:15 govie wrote:
Mediocre items have less impact the later you get them. I believe a too late drums is almost just as questionable as a 12 minute midas first item. Drums offer advantages at certain timings, thats why i buy the item. If i wanted stats, i would try nulls+bracer or something similar. We havent seen loda buying bracers. nulls, drums or other cheap statoriented items after +30 minutes now have we.
thats simply not true. small / medium items have weaker slot efficiency but aside from that they have better stats for the gold you are spending on them. also the stats on drum (the active and the aura) are scaling stats so they actually gain efficiency the farer you get into the game. also the active movement speed boost is almost allways useful may it be early game roaming midgame skirmishes or full on lategame clashes you will profit from it.
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Stat efficiency is only one part of the picture, though. Larger items do have less stats for gold, but obviously offer actives or secondary effects that can be far more valuable than simple stats.
On some heroes in some situations, yes, a late drums might let you win a critical base defense and crawl back into the game. Because of how valuable the radiance effect is for spectre, and how slowly she farms without it, those situations are very specific in her case. It does no good to barely hold your highground if you have no way to quickly convert that fleeting mapcontrol into a recovery.
Also, it's worth pointing out that the drums % scales no better than any other +aspd or +spd, and swiftness aura on its own is equivalent to something like 1/3 of a gloves of haste.
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That's fine although I try to avoid Vanguard if I can which often means it's probably too late for me to go Vanguard if I've had a rough time. The reason being is just that I find it falls off very quickly and there items you need could be built into other things (Heart and Refresher). All of that and considering the cost which delay other things means I quite often skip it, but I can at least see how in some situations it can be useful if you need to join fights a lot earlier.
I agree about Diffusal I think it's a very good item for Spectre. The only thing I'm kind of confused about is whether to go Manta or Diffusal first
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At a later point in the game, I rather have items that actually do something that may turn games. Stuff like blademail/halberd/diffusal. You are so behind that that little extra stats wouldn't matter, but items with active may.
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On July 31 2014 22:17 Cerberus2589 wrote:
That's fine although I try to avoid Vanguard if I can which often means it's probably too late for me to go Vanguard if I've had a rough time. The reason being is just that I find it falls off very quickly and there items you need could be built into other things (Heart and Refresher). All of that and considering the cost which delay other things means I quite often skip it, but I can at least see how in some situations it can be useful if you need to join fights a lot earlier.
I agree about Diffusal I think it's a very good item for Spectre. The only thing I'm kind of confused about is whether to go Manta or Diffusal first
i think if you look at the lanes and know you are probably gonna get wrecked, it might just be a good idea to go for ti from the start; the extra survivability of vanguard as well as help in combat might mean you get radiance at the same timing but with a bonus vanguard instead
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On July 31 2014 22:29 CeriseCherries wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 22:17 Cerberus2589 wrote:
That's fine although I try to avoid Vanguard if I can which often means it's probably too late for me to go Vanguard if I've had a rough time. The reason being is just that I find it falls off very quickly and there items you need could be built into other things (Heart and Refresher). All of that and considering the cost which delay other things means I quite often skip it, but I can at least see how in some situations it can be useful if you need to join fights a lot earlier.
I agree about Diffusal I think it's a very good item for Spectre. The only thing I'm kind of confused about is whether to go Manta or Diffusal first i think if you look at the lanes and know you are probably gonna get wrecked, it might just be a good idea to go for ti from the start; the extra survivability of vanguard as well as help in combat might mean you get radiance at the same timing but with a bonus vanguard instead
Yeah I guess Vanguard will help you to fight a lot earlier. To be honest Vanguard Spectre I've been confused about for a while and haven't really decided on it. Pro players seem to love this item on Spectre and get it every game even in pub games whereas 5k+ pub players think you're a retard if you buy this item
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I feel that if you've drafted spectre for a game and you cannot get a welltimed radiance, you either drafted badly or got massively outplayed. Either would likely have you lose regardless, but the salient point is that if you don't feel 100% certain your spectre will be secured room for a proper radiance timing, a different hero would've been better in the draft.
If you're blindly picking spectre every game when the hero is fairly niche, or at the very least has some glaring weaknesses to take advantage off, then that's up to you. However the hero simply has limitations and I feel strongly that spectre just does not fit into every draft.
If you feel forced to go drums/vanguard into diffusal, a different hero would've been much better.
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I don't really like that mindset, sure you should be aiming for that Radiance but even if you can't just ROFLfarm with treads into Radiance you can still get other items and come back to the Radiance whenever because of its nature of anything from anti-blink, etc. Haunt is an extremely good spell for initiation and other utility so she isn't always dead weight compared to a horrible AM.
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On August 01 2014 03:54 Divine-Sneaker wrote:
I feel that if you've drafted spectre for a game and you cannot get a welltimed radiance, you either drafted badly or got massively outplayed. Either would likely have you lose regardless, but the salient point is that if you don't feel 100% certain your spectre will be secured room for a proper radiance timing, a different hero would've been better in the draft.
If you're blindly picking spectre every game when the hero is fairly niche, or at the very least has some glaring weaknesses to take advantage off, then that's up to you. However the hero simply has limitations and I feel strongly that spectre just does not fit into every draft.
If you feel forced to go drums/vanguard into diffusal, a different hero would've been much better.
I agree wtih Suprise on this one, i feel like your mindset is really bad in regards to spectre. Her ability to farm anywhere, and still being able to participate in a huge amoun of ganks and/or pushes is what makes her great, and spectre is actually one of the few carries that can turn games on her own because of the farming potential without missing fights/ganks.
I have turned games where i ditched the radiance idea at like minute 18 because i was far behind, picked up a vangaurd, and started to rotate jungle. The most important part what people forget is, that if you go for a haunt gank, you are free to farm that lane for at least a full minute, which should net you around 600 extra gold on top of the kill/assist gold. so around 800-1000 gold for a gank is extremely good.
Spectre is such an elusive hero and, once you have 1 survivability item, a really hard hero to catch offgaurd and gank effectively.
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I still don't get the whole Vanguard jungling logic. I've always looked at it as a pushing item due to its ability to tank tower damage and how poorly it scales late game. To me it is a win now item, when your team is steamrolling and you already have the Stout Shield and RoH and you just need to tank up and go end the game. I don't see it as a come from behind jungling item.
If you need regen in lane and/or need to jungle you can save the RoH for Refresher or Linken's, or get a casual Morbid Mask which you can turn into whatever depending on the situation. If you need to cheap HP just buy a casual vit or point booster (depending if you want to go Heart of Skadi).
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The point about abandoning radiance is that while you are saving for radiance your ganks are inherently weaker since you are just going to have 2000 gold in your inventory rather than drums or something like that. If you are going to sacrifice the early game then you may as well just go ahead and get the radiance so you are more effective for the rest of the game.
If you are going to buy drums etc... then you should commit early so that you can make the most of it.
Of course there are probably some rare scenarios where abandoning radiance is the right thing to do, but if you are doing it often then you are probably doing something wrong.
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The thing about Vanguard Spectre is that people are not that used to playing against it. They often don't know just how much they have to commit to bringing her down/don't have enough CC/nuke, paired with phase boots and dagger you can survive a lot of midgame skirmishes or make the enemy overextend when they attempt to gank you.
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Vanguard would have to be a situational pickup nowadays. It might be a good build in some games, but at the same time it's probably good for the other team if they forced you to build it.
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before i stopped playing dota (which is like 5 years ago) vanguard radi was core on spectre. she wasn't played that much back then though because icefrog just recently nerfed dispersion (it did full damage to everyone before that). I don't see it that often now. It seems ppl forgot about the item being so good to being able to fight during midgame with a carry. I see how you would want to rush radi if you can though.
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On August 02 2014 02:45 Corr wrote:
The thing about Vanguard Spectre is that people are not that used to playing against it. They often don't know just how much they have to commit to bringing her down/don't have enough CC/nuke, paired with phase boots and dagger you can survive a lot of midgame skirmishes or make the enemy overextend when they attempt to gank you.
Its also super nice to be able to farm the jungle when shit is getting real in the lanes with vanguard. Though, I like the idea of casual RoH into a later refresher.
I like that a lot.
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Yeah I always tend to get the RoH because it seems enough to recover from any bad shit in lane especially with Treads too. The spirit of Clan_Iraqi builds live on in me when I can manage it.
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Yeah that's what I've been trying to say, I just don't think the benefits of a Vanguard is worth delaying your big items unless your team is steamrolling and the game will end regardless. You can closely mirror Vanguard's effects with PMS + RoH + Vit Booster even if you did need the early tankiness.
Oh and by the way, Spectre + Silencer is a wicked global combo. Global Silence makes teams scatter like rats and synergizes with Desolate like you wouldn't believe. Combine that with Diffusal on Spectre and Aghs on Silencer and even if they do live they are completely dry on mana. And if it gets REALLY late you can grab RFO on both Spectre and Silencer and it's like a global instant win button. All you need is a good initiator and you can pretty much 3v5.
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On August 02 2014 15:44 Skyro wrote:
Yeah that's what I've been trying to say, I just don't think the benefits of a Vanguard is worth delaying your big items unless your team is steamrolling and the game will end regardless. You can closely mirror Vanguard's effects with PMS + RoH + Vit Booster even if you did need the early tankiness.
Oh and by the way, Spectre + Silencer is a wicked global combo. Global Silence makes teams scatter like rats and synergizes with Desolate like you wouldn't believe. Combine that with Diffusal on Spectre and Aghs on Silencer and even if they do live they are completely dry on mana. And if it gets REALLY late you can grab RFO on both Spectre and Silencer and it's like a global instant win button. All you need is a good initiator and you can pretty much 3v5.
Did it before :D Think it was a double or triple kill. Me and my pal Silencer just decided to press 3 buttons.
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i used rfo the first time on her
it feels like you dont just get double the effect but more. the first ult scratches them but the second brings alot of them to citical health. you can almost do sth else while your team cleans up. first i thought it would be just "a bit more aoe". its not. its really really strong.
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i've been recently playing this hero alot, so just to ask if anyone knows there any good players that i can watch so i can learn from them? I realise that i can't contribute as much if i tried to go radiance first, so i want to see how much i differ from other spectre players..
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On September 07 2014 15:40 Invictus wrote:
i've been recently playing this hero alot, so just to ask if anyone knows there any good players that i can watch so i can learn from them? I realise that i can't contribute as much if i tried to go radiance first, so i want to see how much i differ from other spectre players..
Nothing much to learn spectre from replays. You need to know that desolate is a very powerful spell, you should never get rank 2 dispersion until level 12. The skill build matters a lot because spectre is shitty enough early on, and how you skill her heavily affects your impact in the early game.
Skill build aside, its just basic farming and carry skills. You can also have a sense on how much HP items you should be getting. I like urn a lot, but many games I go straight radiance because I know I can afford to.
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Never ever get rank 2 dispersion before level 12! Thats soo important. If your team has lots of stun-slow go desolate first. If your team lacks control go dagger first. Also passing dispersion completely until level 9 is fine. Its just personal preference.
Also there is nothing wrong going PT/Phase>drum>Radiance. Drum costs roughly 2k. (which you should farm in 4 minutes.) Doing something different then pressing R is priceless. Especially in pub games your team most likely requires your assistance in teamfights and drum makes it doable.
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I don't understand why phaseboot instead of powertread for spec.
Her first skill already gives 0 collision and extra MS so PB barely adds anything.
Spec DPS output relies heavily on desolate. PT optimizes desolate output while PB doesn't.
PT versatility might be at best for spectre. PT agi when casting haunt, PT str when tanking, and PT int when she needs to cast dagger or haunt.
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slow hero and mediocre damage
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On September 08 2014 21:47 Snakesneaks wrote:
I don't understand why phaseboot instead of powertread for spec.
Her first skill already gives 0 collision and extra MS so PB barely adds anything.
Spec DPS output relies heavily on desolate. PT optimizes desolate output while PB doesn't.
PT versatility might be at best for spectre. PT agi when casting haunt, PT str when tanking, and PT int when she needs to cast dagger or haunt.
i almost always go treads, they are the perfect boots for her.
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Phase boots give way more killing potential early game and are keys to first haunts, they don't "barely add anything", they synergise with dagger more than they overlap, kinda like windrunner wants phase.
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imo
oov+treads > oov+phase
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The logic for Phase is that it is better in chasing scenarios, which will be the majority of scenarios in regards to Spectre as he's glass early on and is only going to Haunt in to try to secure sure kills. Similar logic as to why some max Spectral Dagger first over Desolate.
If your team has ample lockdown then Treads + max Desolate will provide superior DPS.
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On September 09 2014 08:45 Skyro wrote:
The logic for Phase is that it is better in chasing scenarios, which will be the majority of scenarios in regards to Spectre as he's glass early on and is only going to Haunt in to try to secure sure kills. Similar logic as to why some max Spectral Dagger first over Desolate.
If your team has ample lockdown then Treads + max Desolate will provide superior DPS.
phase also helps spectres weak laning a lot more than treads does early, especially if ur bad like me
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I tend not to upgrade my boots at all unless I really need to be very active. I go for a radiance rush, only delaying it by urn/upgraded boots/oov if I deem it necessary.
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United States47024 Posts
Phase is worth it if it's specifically going to get you a kill (and a lot of times it does).
For pure long-term usefulness, Treads are going to be better than Phase, but it's not that uncommon that a kill opportunity will show up that Phase will help you get.
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On September 09 2014 10:45 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 08:45 Skyro wrote:
The logic for Phase is that it is better in chasing scenarios, which will be the majority of scenarios in regards to Spectre as he's glass early on and is only going to Haunt in to try to secure sure kills. Similar logic as to why some max Spectral Dagger first over Desolate.
If your team has ample lockdown then Treads + max Desolate will provide superior DPS. phase also helps spectres weak laning a lot more than treads does early, especially if ur bad like me
Consider this, a lot of people are bad at farming. Treads helps you farm quicker.
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I think the +24 damage works as a crutch to lasthit for a lot of people not at the top of the foodchain. Considering how many people can't even lasthit with 100 damage, I think they'll have a lot of trouble doing so with less than 50. Treads hardly helps in this regard whereas Phase puts you more or less on par with the average amount of damage for the time you'll usually buy them.
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Spectre needs rework on shroud and desolate. Skill parity quite poor compared to many other heroes. She's probably going to be tweaked as soon as Icefrog thinks Drow is good for the time being.
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On September 09 2014 19:36 Divine-Sneaker wrote:
I think the +24 damage works as a crutch to lasthit for a lot of people not at the top of the foodchain. Considering how many people can't even lasthit with 100 damage, I think they'll have a lot of trouble doing so with less than 50. Treads hardly helps in this regard whereas Phase puts you more or less on par with the average amount of damage for the time you'll usually buy them.
Chances are you're going to be supported vs a solo match up so you likely aren't really going to be starving for the last hits outside of 1v1s. I don't really see the need in more damage in that sense. Get a QB from sideshop after Poorman's or something.
Also treads accelerates your farming speed for jungling and getting off faster desolate damage in general.
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I don't believe you should be getting Treads for Spectre just to 'farm faster'. You're never going to jungle heavily (or at all) until your Radiance (of which AS isn't that important). Considering that pre Radiance you should be spending your time in lane, I think you're better of still controlling the equilibrium, of which attack speed doesn't matter at all.
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imo": Early unique attack modifier like manaburn or maimslow = PT's else phaseboots
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I like playing spectre to tank up a little at the start although its not optimal at all but people at my level underestimate spectre's survival capabilities early. I get urn pt vanguard and have close to 1.3k hp at levels 10 and above and it takes alot of work for the enemy team to take you down.
Granted I go for diffusal/yasha into manta diffusal next so pt helps me out much more, but if you are going radiance phase would probably be the better choice since just post radiance most of your teamfight contribution comes from radiance burn instead of actively hitting stuff.
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On September 09 2014 20:35 Surprise.820 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 19:36 Divine-Sneaker wrote:
I think the +24 damage works as a crutch to lasthit for a lot of people not at the top of the foodchain. Considering how many people can't even lasthit with 100 damage, I think they'll have a lot of trouble doing so with less than 50. Treads hardly helps in this regard whereas Phase puts you more or less on par with the average amount of damage for the time you'll usually buy them. Chances are you're going to be supported vs a solo match up so you likely aren't really going to be starving for the last hits outside of 1v1s. I don't really see the need in more damage in that sense. Get a QB from sideshop after Poorman's or something. Also treads accelerates your farming speed for jungling and getting off faster desolate damage in general.
I didn't say I agree with getting phase the majority of the time. I said bad pubbies can't lasthit for shit, and they might gain more from the bonus damage in terms of ability to not fuck up their lasthitting. For pubs who can't lasthit with 50 damage, it doesn't even matter if the opposing offlane is entirely zoned out, they just need more damage and phase might be a compelling choice.
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On September 11 2014 03:40 Divine-Sneaker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 20:35 Surprise.820 wrote:On September 09 2014 19:36 Divine-Sneaker wrote:
I think the +24 damage works as a crutch to lasthit for a lot of people not at the top of the foodchain. Considering how many people can't even lasthit with 100 damage, I think they'll have a lot of trouble doing so with less than 50. Treads hardly helps in this regard whereas Phase puts you more or less on par with the average amount of damage for the time you'll usually buy them. Chances are you're going to be supported vs a solo match up so you likely aren't really going to be starving for the last hits outside of 1v1s. I don't really see the need in more damage in that sense. Get a QB from sideshop after Poorman's or something. Also treads accelerates your farming speed for jungling and getting off faster desolate damage in general. I didn't say I agree with getting phase the majority of the time. I said bad pubbies can't lasthit for shit, and they might gain more from the bonus damage in terms of ability to not fuck up their lasthitting. For pubs who can't lasthit with 50 damage, it doesn't even matter if the opposing offlane is entirely zoned out, they just need more damage and phase might be a compelling choice.
Or they could just get better.
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I'd rather get a quelling blade if I needed more damage to last hit
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They definitely should get better. I'm just trying to give a reason why baddies might justify it.
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Anyone else feel like Spectre feels very strong(in pubs atleast) this patch?
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Considering she went from 53% winrate to 64%, I'd say that's a fairly agreeable statement.
On the topic of treads. I get them if I'm under pressure, or in conjunction with a midas. If they have people who nuke really hard, or if I'm going to be jungling a bit more than I'd like the treads tend to be quite a bit better. If I get a midas on spectre (the rare times I do) then stacking the IAS just feels right 
Oh and if its past 12 minutes and you are completing boots, just get the treads unless you feel kiting will be an issue. Phase are better if you get them earlier.
I will usually open with quelling blade on her for the last hitting, and generally go into PMS and ferry over more regen on the courier if I think the lane calls for it. I think her last hitting can be pretty easy after you play a few games with her. Her agi gain is pretty decent too so it naturally goes up fairly well. I've done relic rushes with just brown boots/PMS and found the last hitting more than adequate. The first few levels can be quite the struggle though, particularly if you are new on the hero.
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GK build still feels the best to me
however refresher nerf is annoying
salve tango shield 2xbranch (gk goes tango shield quelling) - pms, RoH, brown boots - either radiance/diffusal first (radiance better diffusal if u have a difficult game) - refresher.
as for skill points its fairly open to whatever you think is better, he almost never maxes dispersion, I always go 1-4-11 and then take stats and ult.
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Why are people still buying RoH when Urn is soooooooo good on Spectre?
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cuz it builds into refresher later?
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Yeah I used to do that too but you end up with a naked roh for a very long time. The early game impact from an urn far outweighs getting your rfo (that's if you even choose to get it at all that particular game) 437 gold faster.
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So, I played 4 games on spectre yesterday, went pms urn treads early in every game and thought it was amazing, BUT my farm is not good enough so that with these early game items Im at like a 22min relic. At this point my teammates (either pubs or friends) universally flame me and say "dude dont buy radiance its too late, get something useful". So I just buy a diffusal and focus on fighting, but this makes it VERY hard to farm for the rest of the game. Should I just ignore them and be ok with 25-26 min radiance? Obviously I could lasthit better, but in all these games I had at most 1 death and participated in 2 or 3 kills min by 15 mins. Seems to be very relevant early participation power for such a good lategame carry but I really want to build the radiance. I did win all these games easily btw.
Edit: If its relevant I am only like 3500 mmr, and I am aware that improved lasthitting will help this problem but in the meantime?
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On September 29 2014 11:14 Atreides wrote:
So, I played 4 games on spectre yesterday, went pms urn treads early in every game and thought it was amazing, BUT my farm is not good enough so that with these early game items Im at like a 22min relic. At this point my teammates (either pubs or friends) universally flame me and say "dude dont buy radiance its too late, get something useful". So I just buy a diffusal and focus on fighting, but this makes it VERY hard to farm for the rest of the game. Should I just ignore them and be ok with 25-26 min radiance? Obviously I could lasthit better, but in all these games I had at most 1 death and participated in 2 or 3 kills min by 15 mins. Seems to be very relevant early participation power for such a good lategame carry but I really want to build the radiance. I did win all these games easily btw.
Edit: If its relevant I am only like 3500 mmr, and I am aware that improved lasthitting will help this problem but in the meantime?
Ignore them. That timing is good enough. There are very very very few situations where I'd say to skip the Radiance. It's just too good in so many ways. Spectre is terrible at farming before the radiance, and having 22 minute radiance/treads/urn/pms is a respectable timing. Ignore your pubs. I've had plenty of games where I get 25-35 minute radiance and then win the game from that point. The road to Radiance can be terrible sometimes, but the harder it is to get it the more likely you are to need it to get back in the game. The DPS from it is insane and diffusal doesn't even compare. It disables blink initiators if you time your haunt right, but probably most important it lets your farm explode.
Here's a game I played not too long ago
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/901859290
It's on a friends account, my actual mmr is around 4300-4600, and spec is probably my best carry. In that game I get destroyed early game, I think I get my radiance at about 26 minutes and have probably around 100 creeps? In the next 13 minutes, using radiance/manta farming and getting some good fights my networth goes up about 14k. Which is over 1k gold a minute for the last 13 minutes. Without the radiance that wasn't happening.
Yes, it was a game that should of been an easy win because me and the centaur were smurfing. I was never really too worried at any point during that game, however the game itself is just meant to show how the effect the radiance had on my farming over the next 13 minutes after I got it. I could of just went for the diffusal and tried brawling more, but with a diffusal in that game instead of my radiance I guarantee you my item progression would probably be significantly slower..
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On September 29 2014 08:56 Skyro wrote:
Why are people still buying RoH when Urn is soooooooo good on Spectre? Sometimes it's a good Vanguard game, while in some other times it's a good Bracer(Drums optional)+Urn game.
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Why bracer I just make pms urn treads pretty much every game? Doesnt really feel like I need more. Usually I have to ship myself regen at one point, but other than that stay on map, participate in kills with haunt. Only 3500 mmr, but the rarely early deaths I've had dont seem like bracer would have saved me. As opposed to something like Naga where I always make drums early pretty much cuz you seem worthless without the stats. I'm definitely open to adjusting playstyle though.
How often/important is oov?
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I have massive problems with radiance because if the entire enemy team comes online before I come online, it's possible for them to basically 5v5 and absolutely wreck my team both before and after I get radiance since I'm just so squishy both before and after, as compared with drums diffusal into manta heart. I think this is partly due to the lack of an escape mechanism on Spectre, as opposed to Weaver (gotta go fast), Antimage, and other hard farming carries, which at least have a bigger chance of escaping a smoke gank than Spectre. That, plus in pubs, it's very possible to get a hard lane ex 2v2 lich/axe vs spectre/rubick (one of the worst case scenarios, but you get the idea), in which case I'd rather get a diffusal and come online earlier though weaker.
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Its never a good vanguard or drums game. Just get a freaking urn. Even before the patch this is what you should be getting if you want HP.
RoH is mainly for refresher build. But generally urn is just better because of how active spectre can participate in fights.
Either way, you go for radiance next.
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United States2186 Posts
Diffusal Spectre is one of the biggest noob traps.
If you're behind and you get a diffusal blade you're still behind and still weak. Diffusal spectre only does anything if the extra damage from it + haunt is pushes past the equilibrium and forces them to flee; unless they take really bad fights you are really going to overwhelm them if you are already losing so badly you feel forced to get a diffusal. Even Manta rush would do more to salvage those fights since you'll do a lot more dps and farm kinda faster.You're also really weak after 30 mins because you can't farm and do way less damage; you basically lose the godlike lategame carry aspect if you go diffusal and can't snowball off kills. And you know, you suffered through the worst early game there is for that lategame reward, so if you don't get it why are you playing the hero?
Diffusal is only going to be better if they are trying to do something overaggressive like prematurely highground you and you have saved up a bit over 3k, and they dive a t2 bit too far and don't expect you to do any damage. If you can win that fight then it pays for itself, but if the game pace slows down or your team feeds stupidly and you give up too much, and you can't connect on any kills, you are irrevocably screwed. In short its much riskier to go for diffusal than saving on radi, cause radi is the ultimate comeback item and always good but diffusal needs very specific circumstances to be better.
I've had a game where their offensive trilane got a few initial kills so I sent away my supports and sat 1v3 while we lost elsewhere on the map too; had maybe 8 creeps at 10 mins and 40 at 20 mins, but as soon as Radi got online at 30-33 mins~ the game swung completely. That's probably worse case scenario, and the radi was still better.
Vanguard is only good in games where they have high burst and massive but inexpensive pick off threat: i,e, centaur/exort invoker, offlane void+aa, storm, or mid LC+clock/bounty, etc. In those situations if they can't explode you instantly, their strength is lost and you can reach your radiance safely. Burning often went for casual vit booster pre-relic in these kind of situations if he was facing a lot of burst threat and Burning Spectre never dies, so there's good precedent.
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I play a fair amount of spectre, and you get the RoH in a game where you are dealing with a fair amount of lane harassment and you are going a radiance RFO build, which is generally incredibly good against any lineup that doesn't have a ton of healing and tanks.
P.S. if you think zeus is an annoying bastard with the bs 40% buff you should see spectre with radiance... its just unfair since you can zip in after the ult and finish off the stragglers, and the 40% applies to dispersion damage AND you get healed from the creeps dying to radiance + dispersion... its just beyond strong
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I'm never gonna go urn on this hero its prolly better on a support/mid anyway. I prefer my RoH that I can turn to RFO later or Vanguard if needed.
I also never go phase boots, I prefer my treads
Noone shud ever go drums on this hero
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On October 01 2014 08:16 Varth wrote:
I play a fair amount of spectre, and you get the RoH in a game where you are dealing with a fair amount of lane harassment and you are going a radiance RFO build, which is generally incredibly good against any lineup that doesn't have a ton of healing and tanks.
P.S. if you think zeus is an annoying bastard with the bs 40% buff you should see spectre with radiance... its just unfair since you can zip in after the ult and finish off the stragglers, and the 40% applies to dispersion damage AND you get healed from the creeps dying to radiance + dispersion... its just beyond strong
Does it actually buff the illusion damage? i thought about that, but since it was your illusions with the haunt I didn't think they would get the bonus damage.
I also never understood drums on Spectre. I get the idea, it just seems... bad.
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On September 30 2014 16:30 Fencar wrote:
I have massive problems with radiance because if the entire enemy team comes online before I come online, it's possible for them to basically 5v5 and absolutely wreck my team both before and after I get radiance since I'm just so squishy both before and after, as compared with drums diffusal into manta heart. I think this is partly due to the lack of an escape mechanism on Spectre, as opposed to Weaver (gotta go fast), Antimage, and other hard farming carries, which at least have a bigger chance of escaping a smoke gank than Spectre. That, plus in pubs, it's very possible to get a hard lane ex 2v2 lich/axe vs spectre/rubick (one of the worst case scenarios, but you get the idea), in which case I'd rather get a diffusal and come online earlier though weaker.
I think you are better off getting manta instead of diffusal if that is the case because you will have more potential single target DPS (desolate + illusion) along with the stats and movement speed. Only benefit of diffusal is that your haunt will do more damage from mana burn but I suppose it depends on how badly you need the purge early which should generally never be the case. Either way, radiance is always better than any of those situation. True you are squishy but with radiance, you have a great farming item and your farming speed just sky rocket along with your team fight potential when haunt. If you are getting radiance at good time, you shouldn't have those problem at all. Very common for spectre to get radiance and the game turn 180 because of how much of a game changing item radiance can be especially on spectre.
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To be honest I have a huge "fetish" for Diffusal blade and I always used to build it first and just start killing and dominating the game. Worked very well; and it actually still works very well still (if anything the cheaper item prices make it even better).
But, and its a big but, in this patch you're virtually guaranteed to get gold for a Radiance if you want one. So there seems to be fairly little reason to not get it first, since you can always get diffusal as a second item and kill half the other team every haunt for a while.
Lets give an example here...last night I was playing a game on Spectre. I was solo in lane with a roaming supporting Riki helping out sometimes; and I was against Spirit Breaker and Mirana. Sounds like a recipe for absolute disaster, right? And sure, I died a couple times but got a couple kills early game to make up for it. And I STILL had the sacred relic at 22-23 minutes and the radiance three or four minutes later.
Much as I love diffusal...this patch its quite hard to justify not getting the relic into radiance on Spectre because its really not that hard to build now; and you're not facing such a huge disadvantage for losing towers anymore. Hence you don't really have to be online quite as fast.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 01 2014 15:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 08:16 Varth wrote:
I play a fair amount of spectre, and you get the RoH in a game where you are dealing with a fair amount of lane harassment and you are going a radiance RFO build, which is generally incredibly good against any lineup that doesn't have a ton of healing and tanks.
P.S. if you think zeus is an annoying bastard with the bs 40% buff you should see spectre with radiance... its just unfair since you can zip in after the ult and finish off the stragglers, and the 40% applies to dispersion damage AND you get healed from the creeps dying to radiance + dispersion... its just beyond strong Does it actually buff the illusion damage? i thought about that, but since it was your illusions with the haunt I didn't think they would get the bonus damage. I also never understood drums on Spectre. I get the idea, it just seems... bad.
yes all spectre illusions benefit from desolate bonus damage
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Like many people have mentioned, radiance is just so damn good on this hero. I've had games where my team has been struggling, losing all towers before i get my radiance, not winning a single teamfight. But once the radiance comes online, as longas it's before like 25minutes, normally the game just does a complete 180 in our favor.
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I think a radiance is good in CM where you can draft around the spectre radiance, where everyone works towards the same goal. But in AP pubs radiance seem alot worse and I dont agree with the arguments about late naked radiances winning games. It feels a bit like people tend to glorify the naked radiance choice that got them in trouble in the first place.
Alot of players that opt for a naked radiance will be passive. Because of that your team dies alot more. It's like the battle for AP helms deep, but everyone knows gandalf will break his promise anyway and show up 1 day too late. Its really hard to farm a naked radiance without all 5 teammembers commiting to the radiance spectre. Its the same for a jungler going midas who shows up 40 minutes in, 6 slotted and asks where the fight is at. I think that most games that are won with a late naked radiance come back, would have also be won with an easier first major item.
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On October 01 2014 22:55 govie wrote:
I think a radiance is good in CM where you can draft around the spectre radiance, where everyone works towards the same goal. But in AP pubs radiance seem alot worse and I dont agree with the arguments about late naked radiances winning games. It feels a bit like people tend to glorify the naked radiance choice that got them in trouble in the first place.
Alot of players that opt for a naked radiance will be passive. Because of that your team dies alot more. It's like the battle for AP helms deep, but everyone knows gandalf will break his promise anyway and show up 1 day too late. Its really hard to farm a naked radiance without all 5 teammembers commiting to the radiance spectre. Its the same for a jungler going midas who shows up 40 minutes in, 6 slotted and asks where the fight is at. I think that most games that are won with a late naked radiance come back, would have also be won with an easier first major item.
Maxed desolate haunt hurts.
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On October 02 2014 02:07 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 22:55 govie wrote:
I think a radiance is good in CM where you can draft around the spectre radiance, where everyone works towards the same goal. But in AP pubs radiance seem alot worse and I dont agree with the arguments about late naked radiances winning games. It feels a bit like people tend to glorify the naked radiance choice that got them in trouble in the first place.
Alot of players that opt for a naked radiance will be passive. Because of that your team dies alot more. It's like the battle for AP helms deep, but everyone knows gandalf will break his promise anyway and show up 1 day too late. Its really hard to farm a naked radiance without all 5 teammembers commiting to the radiance spectre. Its the same for a jungler going midas who shows up 40 minutes in, 6 slotted and asks where the fight is at. I think that most games that are won with a late naked radiance come back, would have also be won with an easier first major item.
Maxed desolate haunt hurts.
Ofcourse but I think thats besides the scope of my post, there are games were a naked radiance gets punished or other items would have been better, with or without desolate.
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Another hero would've been better for those games.
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On October 01 2014 22:55 govie wrote:
I think a radiance is good in CM where you can draft around the spectre radiance, where everyone works towards the same goal. But in AP pubs radiance seem alot worse and I dont agree with the arguments about late naked radiances winning games. It feels a bit like people tend to glorify the naked radiance choice that got them in trouble in the first place.
Alot of players that opt for a naked radiance will be passive. Because of that your team dies alot more. It's like the battle for AP helms deep, but everyone knows gandalf will break his promise anyway and show up 1 day too late. Its really hard to farm a naked radiance without all 5 teammembers commiting to the radiance spectre. Its the same for a jungler going midas who shows up 40 minutes in, 6 slotted and asks where the fight is at. I think that most games that are won with a late naked radiance come back, would have also be won with an easier first major item.
It's like you're asking what to do after you first pick Spectre in pub AP and the opposing team goes aggro tri-lane. The answer is don't first pick Spectre. Pick Spectre when the conditions are right, just like with any hero.
And I don't think the general message in the thread is to rush a naked Radiance either, it's more or less that you should always get a Radiance eventually, with the exception being your team is stomping so hard the game will end early. Early item progression for Spectre is really:
1) If needed, cheap laning items (i.e. PMS)
2) If needed, cheap regen item so you are topped off for Haunt and vs. ganks (i.e. Urn, RoH)
3) If needed, cheap items to help secure kills with Haunt (Phase Boots, Urn)
4) If needed, cheap survivability for ganks, etc. (i.e. naked Vit Booster, Urn)
5) Radiance
The reason Urn is so good is because it gives 2), 3), and 4) above, and it's really easy to get charges with Haunt, and it is dirt cheap so you can get that Radiance faster.
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You generally want to rush a radiance. Sometimes you are forced to buy HP items. So you get urn. Sometimes you need to add a vit booster on top of it. Sometimes you can go BT with plain boots. Other times you may choose to upgrade it. Basically you want your radiance as early as possible, but feel free to delay if its necessary.
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On October 01 2014 18:46 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 15:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On October 01 2014 08:16 Varth wrote:
I play a fair amount of spectre, and you get the RoH in a game where you are dealing with a fair amount of lane harassment and you are going a radiance RFO build, which is generally incredibly good against any lineup that doesn't have a ton of healing and tanks.
P.S. if you think zeus is an annoying bastard with the bs 40% buff you should see spectre with radiance... its just unfair since you can zip in after the ult and finish off the stragglers, and the 40% applies to dispersion damage AND you get healed from the creeps dying to radiance + dispersion... its just beyond strong Does it actually buff the illusion damage? i thought about that, but since it was your illusions with the haunt I didn't think they would get the bonus damage. I also never understood drums on Spectre. I get the idea, it just seems... bad. yes all spectre illusions benefit from desolate bonus damage
I meant the bloodseeker bloodrite thing. I know it works with zeus and prophet, but if you use it on Spectre and she haunts, to her haunts get the bonus 40% for their desolate/radiance burn? That's what I was curios about. I didn't think illusions would get the bloodrite bonus.
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On October 02 2014 04:37 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 18:46 ahswtini wrote:On October 01 2014 15:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On October 01 2014 08:16 Varth wrote:
I play a fair amount of spectre, and you get the RoH in a game where you are dealing with a fair amount of lane harassment and you are going a radiance RFO build, which is generally incredibly good against any lineup that doesn't have a ton of healing and tanks.
P.S. if you think zeus is an annoying bastard with the bs 40% buff you should see spectre with radiance... its just unfair since you can zip in after the ult and finish off the stragglers, and the 40% applies to dispersion damage AND you get healed from the creeps dying to radiance + dispersion... its just beyond strong Does it actually buff the illusion damage? i thought about that, but since it was your illusions with the haunt I didn't think they would get the bonus damage. I also never understood drums on Spectre. I get the idea, it just seems... bad. yes all spectre illusions benefit from desolate bonus damage I meant the bloodseeker bloodrite thing. I know it works with zeus and prophet, but if you use it on Spectre and she haunts, to her haunts get the bonus 40% for their desolate/radiance burn? That's what I was curios about. I didn't think illusions would get the bloodrite bonus.
Not tested it but since Bloodrite works on base damage and all abilities then I'm thinking it should work on the desolate damage itself, hence boosting the desolate damage transferred to illusions.
Just a guess and I can't check myself right now (in work).
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
Why is bf a bad item on Spectre?
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On January 04 2015 09:29 Seeker wrote:
Why is bf a bad item on Spectre?
you can't take advantage of the faster farm speed it offers like you can with antimage. it doesn't add to your survivablity. it doesn't synergise in any way with your ultimate.
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its mostly that radis so much better
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SoCal8910 Posts
ok, so i just realized this hero has the best kda out of all my heroes and a great winrate @ 80%+
however, i dont know when to adjust my skill build.
if im in a difficult lane, i usually get PMS so if i get the chance to last hit, i dont take too much harassment..is it ever worth maxing dispersion in this scenario? i understand that i wont do as much to solo targets, but in these kinds of games, i am rarely 1v1'ing someone...its usually a clusterfuck in an effort to slow me down. so was my decision correct to do so?
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On January 06 2015 03:04 BluemoonSC wrote:
ok, so i just realized this hero has the best kda out of all my heroes and a great winrate @ 80%+
however, i dont know when to adjust my skill build.
if im in a difficult lane, i usually get PMS so if i get the chance to last hit, i dont take too much harassment..is it ever worth maxing dispersion in this scenario? i understand that i wont do as much to solo targets, but in these kinds of games, i am rarely 1v1'ing someone...its usually a clusterfuck in an effort to slow me down. so was my decision correct to do so?
Dispersion scales terribly; if you can't survive in a lane with a PMS and 1 lvl of dispersion, you should just leave the lane to jungle or call in supports to help secure it. Extra levels give only a 4% increase in damage reduction, and not having levels in Desolate really weakens your ability to get pickoffs with early haunts. I really don't think it's an option but others are probably more experienced than me.
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It scales terribly, it's definitely worth the value point if you are taking any sort of harass but after that it's definitely not worth it. If you are taking a lot of harass but NOT A TON OF BURST get a roh after the PMS and brown boots. That will enable you to stay in lane, you can jungle ok, and later on you turn it into a RFO.
Early points in desolate is insanely important, its the key to you hitting lvl 6 and being able to get some kills and assists while still being decent during the laning stage
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sometimes you have to swallow your pride and build a vanguard
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SoCal8910 Posts
hmmm ok, that makes sense. i'll have to try the casual roh. how does that go w/ your midgame items?
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You generally have pms/qb/boots/radiance/tp/roh. If you are getting great farm and the other team is relatively squishy I just go straight RFO after radiance. I've not lost a game yet where I had a sub 28 minute RFO out of the 8 games I've gone for it.
Generally the items you want after the radiance are either heart, rfo, or yasha into one of those 2. Heart is the safer build because the buildup is fantastic since the vit booster is cheap and increased your hp by 25% or so which is very significant, where as the RFO buildup is pretty terrible beyond the roh until it's completed.
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manta is fairly good after radiance
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SoCal8910 Posts
i like a casual yasha. would yasha -> heart be acceptable?
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if u already have yasha just finish manta
mantas one of the highest dps items for spec
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On January 06 2015 05:55 BluemoonSC wrote:
hmmm ok, that makes sense. i'll have to try the casual roh. how does that go w/ your midgame items?
Casual RoH is really good, a lot of people say Urn is good too and I agree, but that depends on more factors - your style of play and the actual game itself, you need to actively seek ganks or assists to get urn charges to heal, that in itself is pretty risky and could potentially lose you a lot of farming time or worse, death and gold loss.
Getting Quelling blade -> Magic stick -> Phase boots -> RoH (in no particular order, if I can get away with it, I go QB into RoH) lets you to stay in lane and farm the jungle. Just as long as you're not far too under-leveled, its all the "mid-game" items you need till Radiance, I would say Radiance is probably your mid-game item. After Radiance as others have mentioned, you can build on your RoH for RO, I normally get a manta first.
An alternate Spec build is the urn, vanguard, blade mail, diffusal / manta build. Its makes for a pretty fun mid-game with a lot ganking potential instead of farming for radiance.
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On January 06 2015 10:43 ncsix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2015 05:55 BluemoonSC wrote:
hmmm ok, that makes sense. i'll have to try the casual roh. how does that go w/ your midgame items? Casual RoH is really good, a lot of people say Urn is good too and I agree, but that depends on more factors - your style of play and the actual game itself, you need to actively seek ganks or assists to get urn charges to heal, that in itself is pretty risky and could potentially lose you a lot of farming time or worse, death and gold loss. Getting Quelling blade -> Magic stick -> Phase boots -> RoH (in no particular order, if I can get away with it, I go QB into RoH) lets you to stay in lane and farm the jungle. Just as long as you're not far too under-leveled, its all the "mid-game" items you need till Radiance, I would say Radiance is probably your mid-game item. After Radiance as others have mentioned, you can build on your RoH for RO, I normally get a manta first. An alternate Spec build is the urn, vanguard, blade mail, diffusal / manta build. Its makes for a pretty fun mid-game with a lot ganking potential instead of farming for radiance.
Urn cancels blinkdagger, op item.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On January 06 2015 10:07 Dead9 wrote:
if u already have yasha just finish manta
mantas one of the highest dps items for spec
Mantas one of the highest dps items for spec IF and only IF you are picking off an isolated target that is not even near neutrals or lane creeps... won't talk other heroes.
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u can pick what hero u go on with ulti...
also desolate works next to neutrals
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On January 07 2015 06:08 Dead9 wrote:
u can pick what hero u go on with ulti...
also desolate works next to neutrals
1. You wasted haunt for pick-offs? Those pick-offs better be really worth it, understand?
2. It's tricky, sometimes (if neutrals are in aggro mode), it does not.
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Pretty pretty pretty sure the GK build with Radiance RFO into Agi items is the best build right now. Still he does that Eblade stacking shit whereas I'm also pretty sure Skadi->Bfly is a bit more reliable. The concept is right though. Double Haunt simply wins fights so if your team can force them it's very easy to come out on top.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On January 07 2015 06:27 hariooo wrote:
Pretty pretty pretty sure the GK build with Radiance RFO into Agi items is the best build right now. Still he does that Eblade stacking shit whereas I'm also pretty sure Skadi->Bfly is a bit more reliable. The concept is right though. Double Haunt simply wins fights so if your team can force them it's very easy to come out on top.
It is, despite ice frog nerfing it like 3 times already. Also, did not his eblade stacking came like after 5 slots completed (diffsusal 2-manta-bots-rfo-rad)?
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On January 07 2015 06:19 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2015 06:08 Dead9 wrote:
u can pick what hero u go on with ulti...
also desolate works next to neutrals 1. You wasted haunt for pick-offs? Those pick-offs better be really worth it, understand? 2. It's tricky, sometimes (if neutrals are in aggro mode), it does not.
so do u not plan to haunt for kills? unless ur ulting an underleveled maiden or smth its usually worth it
desolate used to be bugged iirc but it was fixed a while ago, or at least i havent noticed any problems in a long time
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On January 07 2015 07:15 Dead9 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2015 06:19 lolfail9001 wrote:On January 07 2015 06:08 Dead9 wrote:
u can pick what hero u go on with ulti...
also desolate works next to neutrals 1. You wasted haunt for pick-offs? Those pick-offs better be really worth it, understand? 2. It's tricky, sometimes (if neutrals are in aggro mode), it does not. so do u not plan to haunt for kills? unless ur ulting an underleveled maiden or smth its usually worth it desolate used to be bugged iirc but it was fixed a while ago, or at least i havent noticed any problems in a long time
I haunt primarily for something i can profit with. In early game it's pickoffs if lane is pushed into my side and offlaner is not under his tower so i can reality rift back after ksing (or not, if it looks to be a more than a single kill gold), later on it's teamfights that look to be profitable. Though i won't lie, i may sometimes waste haunt for scouting purposes (jk, due to my own stupidity, obviously).
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If I play in the trench and people don't know what a trilane is what should I do with spectre; I have a friend who will play support, but I only see a gank from mid every 3 games or so, I don't think I've ever seen a rotation from the offlane. What support would be best for 2v2 safelane spectre? Lich or silencer I'm thinking, is that the best? Also is 2v1 mid spectre good, and what support is good for that? And how should we play it?
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Don't play spectre is the real answer in those situations.
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Poland186 Posts
I don't think thats the real answer, it's just an excuse to not play the hero. I think the main problem when picking supports is that people believe you NEED a ranged one, but actually some of the best defensive/counteragressive heroes are melee (Abbadon, Omniknight). Ranged sups are really frail and will mostly feed if your carry can't stop your opponents with any spell.
If you are really sure you are gonna be 2v2 and it's a trench, have your buddy pick Undying. 2 hero decays are really strong, and if they ever go for you he can drop tombstone and get a double kill if they commit.
Also you HAVE TO start stout-tango-salve, upgrade to PMS as soon as possible and get a stick. These 2 items are ownage in action-packed lanes and you should always get them before boots. You can get an OoV if you are starting to come ahead.
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Well to be honest, most dual lanes vs dual lanes situations with a spectre will be rough. If you think you will have a hard time playing under alot of pressure with spectre, maybe you should consider picking another hero. Anyway, with that said, I think robaq is mostly right. The main priority with spectre is just not feeding their offlane, and get whatever farm you can (unless you have a trilane, life in lane will always be pretty hard for spectre). So picking something that can keep her alive makes alot of sense. Spectre is really good at playing the catch-up game though so that kinda compensates for her really poor laning abilities.
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im in the low MMR trench and am 4-0 with Spec in the last month. i get quell unless its good tri vs solo. so in 2v2 it helps alot for lane and the neutral camp(s). buy it at side shop, cause as said above always start with sheild, tango, salve, when having a duel lane. also go dagger and dispersion as theres no reason to get desolate cause they wont be alone (i think you arent suppose to get this anyway). skip ult at 6 cause you ll be behind and not that useful. use dagger for LH as often as possible.
disclaimer: remember im under 3k
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Dont let spectre die + get kills at lvl 6 and onwards. I think lich and silencer are good picks too, but silencer is a bit greedy depending on what you are facing, still i like silencer in pubs just because his ultimate is a global and he gets free int. If you face axe pick bane, problem solved.
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1 point in dispersion is fine. Desolate is spectre strongest early and midgame tool. 2/2/1 or 3/1/1 at level 5 should be your build, depending on the situation
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Never ever max dispersion before the other 2 spells.
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I'm certainly not a spectre player, but I don't think laning should be your priority when thinking about who to pick with spectre because spectre is going to lose to pretty much any agressive lane, no matter what your support is. IMO, you should instead think about picking your other 4 heroes so that they can make space for spectre to farm and give her opportunities to haunt in for kills.
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Its that damn "Guide by XBOCT" that has maxing Dispersion.
And jeez, I reread that comment, and boy it is bad.
* Haunt at 6 is mandatory. The reason Spectre is even picked nowaday is because of her ability to get assist gold globally.
* Using Dagger to farm early game is a terrible idea. Pushing out the lane while free farming = wasting time as creeps die to tower. Spectre can't jungle, so its not like you're farming neutrals or something in the meantime.
* Using dagger for farming means that you don't have any mana to escape.
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On February 05 2015 06:55 mooo wrote:
im in the low MMR trench and am 4-0 with Spec in the last month. i get quell unless its good tri vs solo. so in 2v2 it helps alot for lane and the neutral camp(s). buy it at side shop, cause as said above always start with sheild, tango, salve, when having a duel lane. also go dagger and dispersion as theres no reason to get desolate cause they wont be alone (i think you arent suppose to get this anyway). skip ult at 6 cause you ll be behind and not that useful. use dagger for LH as often as possible.
disclaimer: remember im under 3k
Almost everything you said was wrong. The only thing I agree with is a stout/tango/salve is probably the best opening most of the time. Sometimes I open with a quelling/stout/tango and ferry over more regen if needed based off what lane I see. It's fine to do this as long as you get the regen early and don't offset your mids bottle timing by too much.
Jungling with spectre is terrible before your radiance, so always choose lane whenever possible even if it means you have to walk a bit. When you are scared make sure to stay safely away from enemy initiation range if you aren't sure its safe, that means stay near the tree line and only walk up for your last hit if you don't have wards and/or don't know where the enemies with kill potential are.
As some other people said, in a difficult lane you get 1 level of dispersion if you really think you need it. Avoid it whenever possible because having dagger and desolate are what let you get kills. Desolate makes your haunts hit really hard, dagger might be a bit more useful in lane. Even against a dual lane I guarantee you will have times where you can get desolate procs, particularly when you are going for kills when the enemy splits up, or after you kill one the other is trying to flee. At level 11 you should be 4-4-1-2 100% of games. Leveling dispersion ruins your mid game potential to get kills further gimping your team during your weakest phase before your radiance is complete.
Your mana is very important. When you haunt you want to be able to use a dagger to secure a kill. You can't just dagger creeps to get creeps because you have precious few mana and need to conserve it to keep yourself alive by daggering into the trees, or to secure kills in your lane, or securing haunt kills. I've dabled with some urn/aquila build to allow more spamming but I don't think it was really justified slowing your radiance by 2k gold.. One of the items is enough to increase your farm, damage, or survivability enough if you deem that necessary.
Never, ever, ever skip your ult, particularly if you are behind. Spectre's catchup mechanism is her haunt and teamfight contribution, so you want to have as much dagger and desolate to maximize that when you are behind, and you need to get haunt so that you can use those ability with your team, who ideally should be 4 manning when your ult is off cooldown in order to capitalize on the edge haunt gives early on.
Hope that helps a bit.
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On February 02 2015 07:12 Jct0064 wrote:
If I play in the trench and people don't know what a trilane is what should I do with spectre; I have a friend who will play support, but I only see a gank from mid every 3 games or so, I don't think I've ever seen a rotation from the offlane. What support would be best for 2v2 safelane spectre? Lich or silencer I'm thinking, is that the best? Also is 2v1 mid spectre good, and what support is good for that? And how should we play it?
those are alright supports, but honestly any decently aggression lane and you aren't going to be able to CS at all. What I do in those situation is absorb exp and get kills with haunt. This is better if your supports just leave lane so you get more exp. Alternatively, you can have your support pull on CD and you can creep under tower which is a good alternative. Use your haunt to recover, and eventually the other offlaners will leave you and you can use that time to free farm. Most important thing is to not die/feed and make sure you are aware of haunt opportunities.
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Lich + Spectre dual mid is/was a fairly common combo. Spectre solo mid can also be an option against a weak mid like Pudge
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I'm pretty sure pudge could just rot and run at you through the lane, then hook you. I've ran it mid, the exp is nice and you get okay CS depending on the lane. Nice part is not needing to leave lane to gank, so you get that advantage over your opponent.
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Well, he could do that with other melee mid as well, so its not like Spectre is the only one with that problem. Fast boot + bottle and back off when he moves aggressively toward you usually deal with it most of the time.
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On February 06 2015 08:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I'm pretty sure pudge could just rot and run at you through the lane, then hook you. I've ran it mid, the exp is nice and you get okay CS depending on the lane. Nice part is not needing to leave lane to gank, so you get that advantage over your opponent.
how about you man up since you got your creeps and hit him back ? I'm fairly certain pudge dies first
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Spectre is comparably weaker in lane compared to pretty much any mid. TA hits like a truck, DK has strong nuke/stuns and comparable strength to a pudge.
It's pointless to argue really, as I said you can mid but that lane in particular wouldn't benefit you too much. You could man up, but you will most likely lose unless you have something like 3 levels of desolate at 5, where it might be close, but by then hook is hitting for 270 pure when you have an hp pool of maybe 700.
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noone is asking you to tank the hook... you just fight in your creeps and win
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SoCal8910 Posts
desolate is a strong spell.
I wouldn't recommend mid spectre very often, but vs a melee mid, I see no reason she can't stand toe to toe.
except vs brew master, fuck that lane.
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On February 06 2015 11:57 Erasme wrote:
noone is asking you to tank the hook... you just fight in your creeps and win
Exactly. Problem though is that even if you won against Pudge, when he gets his levels you are still afraid of him.
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On February 06 2015 23:54 BluemoonSC wrote:
desolate is a strong spell.
I wouldn't recommend mid spectre very often, but vs a melee mid, I see no reason she can't stand toe to toe.
except vs brew master, fuck that lane.
Uh, she can't stand toe to toe against many melee heroes. Her base damage sucks for last hitting, she doesn't have harassment tool, nor reliable escape and isn't tanky enough.
We don't have many melee heroes played currently on mid, but some of them that comes to mind are:
-Brewmaster
-Ember Spirit
-Axe
-Troll(kind of)
-Slark
-Bristleback
-Tidehunter
-Beastmaster
-Magnus
-Dragon Knight and the list goes on.
I am aware that we are not seeing all of these heroes often on mid(some are pretty rare) but all of them will just force Spectre out of lane since level 2-3. All of them have better nukes and/or sustain on the lane than Spectre and she will get harassed, outleveled and outfarmed.
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TA, PA, Lycan are also run mid, though I don't think Spectre would fare better against any of them either.
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On February 07 2015 06:33 Logo wrote:
TA, PA, Lycan are also run mid, though I don't think Spectre would fare better against any of them either.
Indeed, although TA isn't really a melee hero, especially not with Psi blades lol.
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The original comment on mid spec was about a spec-lich dual mid, which is better than just solo spec.
Even so, considering that even with a support 100% devoted to her lane, spec still has no kill potential, no rune control and pretty average lasthitting, I can't see too many reasons you would want to do that.
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SoCal8910 Posts
if you have a lich spectre dual lane like it was brought up, you give the bottle to your lich, who in turn grabs the rune.
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Thanks for the advice everybody! I think that I was a little too worried about the timing of the rad, but it sounds like everyone isn't all that worried about getting it super fast since spectre comes back so easily. I have noticed that I can control the game easily once I get the rad, so the comeback is strong.
I think that picking up the first haunt kills is my main weakness. I need to use that be a threat earlier, even before the rad. I have had a pretty good time with the hero so I wasn't really worried about a quick fix, I was just wondering if I was winning because the other team was really bad and not because I was doing anything good, I think I'm 8/9 so far.
What I have been doing is rushing the rad and then manta to control lane pressure and teamfights. I don't know when it is better to use haunt to gank instead of a full teamfight (besides pre-rad). It seems too strong of an ult to use on one or two people. My build is a little weird too, I take skadi and satanic instead of heart diffusal. The morbid mask gives me early regen, and I like the combo better since I teamfight and pressure lanes instead of ganking. I probably need to not suck at ganking, but the lane pressure and teamfight has worked pretty well so far. Feedback is welcome though.
I try to slowly crush them, one fight+tower at a time. If I don't make stupid mistakes then I think I could end by 45 usually assuming the enemy is decent. But my last game I made some bad mistakes and it went late.
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/97351668/matches?date=&faction=&hero=spectre&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=
I guess from the lack of interest in duel mid that it doesn't work against competent players haha. But I am in the trench so I might try it.
*bonus story from the trench: the other day I played a game with three solo lanes. Techies and a jungler makes the lanes hard. I had a good time, but the other lanes got pretty hurt. A veno managed to carry. It makes me sad; he was just feeding me souls (SF) with his plague wards and then he started rotating constantly and the other lanes got destroyed.
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Skadi is ok, Heart isn't mandatory(just most of the pros get it for some reason even though in certain situations other items are a lot better) but it is still good. Diffusal is arguable, I almost always get it because it adds quite a bit of damage to your ultimate and your auto-attacks(even though mana break is nerfed now to 25, agi is buffed to 35), and purge is always good. In these kind of games that are long enough, you can always use purge for something, not just slow on enemy hero but for dispelling stuff like Orchid/Hex etc.
I don't really agree with Satanic. Beauty of Spectre is that she is dealing a lot of damage even when she is kited and focused because of dispersion and haunt. You are not an auto-attack carry, your carry potential doesn't come from your attack damage so Satanic feels like wasted 5k+ gold. It is also so easy to kite melee carries or to CC them when they pop up Satanic, but it can be good if they have a lot of heroes that want to man up and fight with you. And outside of fights when you are pushing or farming, Heart gives you enough sustain is doing more work in teamfights than Satanic if you aren't really able to hit much(I mean even if you are, Spectre's base damage and attack speed are shit compared to other agi heroes). So in your place I would choose between Skadi and Heart and I think that there is no reason to get both.
I still prefer Refresher build though, just try it in one game where they won't just group up and push or don't have AoE heal team, and when you manage to make quick Radiance(~18 minutes).
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 08 2015 11:45 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Skadi is ok, Heart isn't mandatory(just most of the pros get it for some reason even though in certain situations other items are a lot better) but it is still good. Diffusal is arguable, I almost always get it because it adds quite a bit of damage to your ultimate and your auto-attacks(even though mana break is nerfed now to 25, agi is buffed to 35), and purge is always good. In these kind of games that are long enough, you can always use purge for something, not just slow on enemy hero but for dispelling stuff like Orchid/Hex etc.
I don't really agree with Satanic. Beauty of Spectre is that she is dealing a lot of damage even when she is kited and focused because of dispersion and haunt. You are not an auto-attack carry, your carry potential doesn't come from your attack damage so Satanic feels like wasted 5k+ gold. It is also so easy to kite melee carries or to CC them when they pop up Satanic, but it can be good if they have a lot of heroes that want to man up and fight with you. And outside of fights when you are pushing or farming, Heart gives you enough sustain is doing more work in teamfights than Satanic if you aren't really able to hit much(I mean even if you are, Spectre's base damage and attack speed are shit compared to other agi heroes). So in your place I would choose between Skadi and Heart and I think that there is no reason to get both.
I still prefer Refresher build though, just try it in one game where they won't just group up and push or don't have AoE heal team, and when you manage to make quick Radiance(~18 minutes).
Thing with Satanic is that spectre actually has instant gapcloser and with abyssal you have no problems locking someone down, do 2 hits and get more HP in total than you would get from heart.
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United States47024 Posts
Satanic's pretty much always stronger for pure man-fighting stats on any hero, but Heart fundamentally changes how the enemy team has to deal with you because of the ways you can abuse Heart regen against heroes who can't keep up with it.
For example, Heart entirely changes how you commit resources to dealing with split-pushing heroes because you can't just send one hero to deal with them if they can trade you down to low HP, back up, and wait for Heart regen. You either have to commit to ganking them, or move your entire team to handle them because of the ability to abuse their regen advantage between waves, or to start a fight when they've regen-ed to full with Heart while the hero sent to stop them hasn't had time to heal yet.
If you're purely looking for a fighting item, Satanic is better, but on heroes that can make use of the abuse cases for Heart regen, it gets enough out of them to be well worth it (and Spectre is definitely such a hero with a global ultimate that can force a fight to happen more or less when she wants). If you only view Heart regen passively as pre-fight/post-fight regen then it seems underwhelming, but the item allows you to actively create situations where the regen is bothersome for the enemy team to play around.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 08 2015 18:11 TheYango wrote:
Satanic's pretty much always stronger for pure man-fighting stats on any hero, but Heart fundamentally changes how the enemy team has to deal with you because of the ways you can abuse Heart regen against heroes who can't keep up with it.
For example, Heart entirely changes how you commit resources to dealing with split-pushing heroes because you can't just send one hero to deal with them if they can trade you down to low HP, back up, and wait for Heart regen. You either have to commit to ganking them, or move your entire team to handle them because of the ability to abuse their regen advantage between waves, or to start a fight when they've regen-ed to full with Heart while the hero sent to stop them hasn't had time to heal yet.
If you're purely looking for a fighting item, Satanic is better, but on heroes that can make use of the abuse cases for Heart regen, it gets enough out of them to be well worth it (and Spectre is definitely such a hero with a global ultimate that can force a fight to happen more or less when she wants). If you only view Heart regen passively as pre-fight/post-fight regen then it seems underwhelming, but the item allows you to actively create situations where the regen is bothersome for the enemy team to play around.
I mean, the problem with heart on spectre is that if you commit to fight, you ain't really getting out of it for extended periods of time for heart regen to kick in, haunt only lasts so long. And if you don't commit, then heart regen is wasted. But i suppose heart could be good for re-engaging if spectre is with the team and manages to get away from first fight, regen some and re-engage with haunt. I honestly have problems imagining the cases when heart regen starts kicking in actively outside of rare cases when you manage to juke around until heart kicks in and this way turn situation around. Spectre is probably the only hero who can juke with such ease tho due to dagger.
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Spectre isn't really a manfighting hero though, you use Haunt to pick the fights you can win and both Dispersion and Desolate are both blocked by BKB. Satanic seems like a fairly situational buy.
I agree with lolfail I don't really see many situations where Spectre will be able to disengage, regen w/ Heart and re-engage into a team fight. He doesn't have a Blink like AM. Any of out of combat regen you need like vs. failed ganks on you is taken care of by Urn which I am a big fan of.
Personally I like Skadi + RFO on a 6 slot Spectre. The slow makes burning down fleeing targets much faster and the extra mana pool lets you get off your full double Haunt-Dagger-Manta combo. Pick off all the squishy supports with Haunt and then isolate and burn down the carry with your team.
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On February 09 2015 05:09 Skyro wrote:
Spectre isn't really a manfighting hero though, you use Haunt to pick the fights you can win and both Dispersion and Desolate are both blocked by BKB. Satanic seems like a fairly situational buy.
I agree with lolfail I don't really see many situations where Spectre will be able to disengage, regen w/ Heart and re-engage into a team fight. He doesn't have a Blink like AM. Any of out of combat regen you need like vs. failed ganks on you is taken care of by Urn which I am a big fan of.
Personally I like Skadi + RFO on a 6 slot Spectre. The slow makes burning down fleeing targets much faster and the extra mana pool lets you get off your full double Haunt-Dagger-Manta combo. Pick off all the squishy supports with Haunt and then isolate and burn down the carry with your team.
Dispersion and desolate are both pure dmg and not blocked by BKB? but RFO seems like a must when 6slotted.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
pure damage and spell immunity are separate things. which is why spell tooltips now list both damage type and whether or not it penetrates spell immunity
some spells do pure damage through bkb (doom, midnight pulse etc...)
some spells do pure damage but not through bkb (desolate, dispersion, laser etc...)
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On February 11 2015 01:44 mooo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 05:09 Skyro wrote:
Spectre isn't really a manfighting hero though, you use Haunt to pick the fights you can win and both Dispersion and Desolate are both blocked by BKB. Satanic seems like a fairly situational buy.
I agree with lolfail I don't really see many situations where Spectre will be able to disengage, regen w/ Heart and re-engage into a team fight. He doesn't have a Blink like AM. Any of out of combat regen you need like vs. failed ganks on you is taken care of by Urn which I am a big fan of.
Personally I like Skadi + RFO on a 6 slot Spectre. The slow makes burning down fleeing targets much faster and the extra mana pool lets you get off your full double Haunt-Dagger-Manta combo. Pick off all the squishy supports with Haunt and then isolate and burn down the carry with your team. Dispersion and desolate are both pure dmg and not blocked by BKB? but RFO seems like a must when 6slotted.
Both are blocked by BKB. She is a very weak hero against BKB.
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Rad Manta Diff bfly/heart best item build , it almost always works
NO ARGUEMENT
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Does octarine Core lifesteal works on spectre passiv ?
It works with radiance...
Radiance + octarine core spectre could be very hard to kill + lower CD on ulti + tankiness + the comeback of the 17% miss chance on radiance...
Thoughts ?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Actually now that i think about it, 6.84 buff is really nice: now you can conviniently reality in early on, killsteal for yourself and reality back to farming. I won't even mention the hilariousity of spamming reality during haunt and jumping all over the map.
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On April 28 2015 23:37 lolfail9001 wrote:
Actually now that i think about it, 6.84 buff is really nice: now you can conviniently reality in early on, killsteal for yourself and reality back to farming. I won't even mention the hilariousity of spamming reality during haunt and jumping all over the map.
Yeah, it is really good buff because most of the time it wasn't worth to jump and take a kill if you couldn't reality back to your lane. Now it is great.
Radiance buff is also really nice as you are applying miss chance to the whole enemy team.
I was also wondering how Octarian Core interacts with Radiance, Dispersion and Blade Mail and if those 4 combined would make you unkillable. I would like to test it.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On April 28 2015 21:00 Yarbleck wrote:
Does octarine Core lifesteal works on spectre passiv ?
It works with radiance...
Radiance + octarine core spectre could be very hard to kill + lower CD on ulti + tankiness + the comeback of the 17% miss chance on radiance...
Thoughts ?
I was just thinking about this. I'm at work and there was a reddit thread with a pretty exhaustive list
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Yeah Octariane seems really good on Rad spect. Factoring in magic resist if you hit all 5 of the enemy team with radiance you will be stealing 50hp per second. That would seem to make it a slightly better Heart replacement as while it wont give as much raw HP spell lifesteal in fights would be ridiculious and Radiance evasion would make it that much harder to kill you.
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so i've been going poor mans shield, phase, urn, into radiance. What do you all recommend going from there. I've been trying a few different things. Straight skadi after, heart after, manta, after? What would you recommend?
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On June 10 2015 09:40 the bear jew wrote:
so i've been going poor mans shield, phase, urn, into radiance. What do you all recommend going from there. I've been trying a few different things. Straight skadi after, heart after, manta, after? What would you recommend?
Depends on the enemy lineup but if they don't have too much healing and aren't that tanky, I usually go for Yasha into Refresher, then finishing Manta and Diffusal. After that Skadi is probably the best choice since it doesn't give you just tankyness like Heart does. Abyssal is great in certain situations where you have to man-fight heroes that are generally better than you at that.
So in the late game I end up with something like this: Boots of Travel, Radiance, Skadi, Manta, Diffusal, Refresher. If the game goes for quite some time I buy Etheral Blade, sometimes even two to switch with Manta and Refresher when using ulti to maximize the damage that illusions are doing.
Now, if they have some strong healing/pushing/tanky lineup where your double ulti isn't nearly as strong, I focus on some items that can make difference earlier in the game. Casual Vitality/Point Booster, Blade Mail, going for Diffusal etc. You still get all of this after Radiance as I think that Spectre is one of the heroes that really needs Radiance to shine, but I had successful builds without Radiance when I just went for massive ganking or when I couldn't really farm quite well.
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im sure octarine for spectre is not good coz it doesnt work with dispersion
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On June 10 2015 16:39 ChunderBoy wrote:
im sure octarine for spectre is not good coz it doesnt work with dispersion
Yeah, I've tried it with Blademail + Dispersion and it didn't work. Having Haunt on 90 second cooldown and Spectral Dagger on 12 second cooldown is very nice but far from needed. I really like OC on many heroes but Spectre will do a ton better with Skadi/Heart.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
So u need to burn all five enemy heroes to heal a (gasp) whole 50hp/s
I doubt when five enemy heroes are beating on you, that's gonna make a difference
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So question, why does Spectre have such a high pub dota winrate this patch? You'd think with the plenitude of early aggression and spell casters it would be bad but instead she's top 4 I think last I checked dotabuff. Even when you break it down by brackets, she is still 55% winrate very high.
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coz no matter what happens early-mid she usually wins late
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On June 11 2015 10:11 ChunderBoy wrote:
coz no matter what happens early-mid she usually wins late
I was under the assumption she lost late when enemy agi carries got satantic and could man fight her. Or is that just ultra late?
Also, hello Beesa, I know who you are now.
I guess the better question is, If early/mid game doesn't matter as much in pubs since people suck at ending games, what makes Spectre so much better then other later game carries? Especially better win rate then other carries that can farm so much better then her.
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Spectre's early game is actually not too bad from a selfish point of view. She's one of the few carries than can reliably kill steal in any team fight w/o compensating farm time, that in itself is huge, she also works really well with a big 4 man(undying + co) fighting lineup with spec just off the map farming somewhere.
I do have a question though.
What's the deal with phase boot? I usually build tread/urn/ into radiance, I just can't seem to understand why phaseboot can help you in any way beside chasing a bit better. Desolate is massive damage that scales with attack speed, dispersion is a great EHP booster that scales with stats, spectral dagger already give u phase, it just seem tread is superior in every aspect.
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On June 11 2015 11:09 the bear jew wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 10:11 ChunderBoy wrote:
coz no matter what happens early-mid she usually wins late I was under the assumption she lost late when enemy agi carries got satantic and could man fight her. Or is that just ultra late? Also, hello Beesa, I know who you are now. I guess the better question is, If early/mid game doesn't matter as much in pubs since people suck at ending games, what makes Spectre so much better then other later game carries? Especially better win rate then other carries that can farm so much better then her.
she contributes even if under-farmed and applies pressure to the whole team
most hard carries are a threat only if super-farmed, and that's the difference
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On June 11 2015 09:53 the bear jew wrote:
So question, why does Spectre have such a high pub dota winrate this patch? You'd think with the plenitude of early aggression and spell casters it would be bad but instead she's top 4 I think last I checked dotabuff. Even when you break it down by brackets, she is still 55% winrate very high.
I'm pretty sure it has to do with the radiance 17% evasion buff.
And the reason she is such a good late game carry is her ulti. Late game you pretty much just press R and the enemy supports are running around trying not to die to your haunt illusions. Also disables enemy teams blink daggers making it hard for those big initiations that can wombo combo your team.
And i have no idea why people use phase instead of treads. I think the rational is the one or two extra attacks you can get off with phase in the early levels exceeds the extra attack speed of treads.
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spectre has been high winrate pub hero for a long time, since before radiance evasion change
source: im a dotabuff expert
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Opinion on the MoM+Yasha build?
With a bit of awareness and ability to disappear from the map to farm with MoM you can reliably get PT+MoM+Yasha+Radiance in under 28 mins.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 11 2015 21:33 Terrorbladder wrote:
Opinion on the MoM+Yasha build?
With a bit of awareness and ability to disappear from the map to farm with MoM you can reliably get PT+MoM+Yasha+Radiance in under 28 mins.
Would not just MoM suffice? IIRC you can reliably get under 25 minute pt-MoM-Radiance even with a death or two.
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On June 11 2015 12:15 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Spectre's early game is actually not too bad from a selfish point of view. She's one of the few carries than can reliably kill steal in any team fight w/o compensating farm time, that in itself is huge, she also works really well with a big 4 man(undying + co) fighting lineup with spec just off the map farming somewhere.
I do have a question though.
What's the deal with phase boot? I usually build tread/urn/ into radiance, I just can't seem to understand why phaseboot can help you in any way beside chasing a bit better. Desolate is massive damage that scales with attack speed, dispersion is a great EHP booster that scales with stats, spectral dagger already give u phase, it just seem tread is superior in every aspect.
You usually hit more often with phase than with treads on melee heroes. Phase active is not just "a bit better", it's a lot better early game when maxed desolate alone does tons of damage. If your team/the ennemy team allows you to reliably rightclick stuff, treads is indeed better. It's also better for farming.
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On June 11 2015 12:15 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Spectre's early game is actually not too bad from a selfish point of view. She's one of the few carries than can reliably kill steal in any team fight w/o compensating farm time, that in itself is huge, she also works really well with a big 4 man(undying + co) fighting lineup with spec just off the map farming somewhere.
I do have a question though.
What's the deal with phase boot? I usually build tread/urn/ into radiance, I just can't seem to understand why phaseboot can help you in any way beside chasing a bit better. Desolate is massive damage that scales with attack speed, dispersion is a great EHP booster that scales with stats, spectral dagger already give u phase, it just seem tread is superior in every aspect.
im a treads buyer myself
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On June 11 2015 23:32 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 12:15 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Spectre's early game is actually not too bad from a selfish point of view. She's one of the few carries than can reliably kill steal in any team fight w/o compensating farm time, that in itself is huge, she also works really well with a big 4 man(undying + co) fighting lineup with spec just off the map farming somewhere.
I do have a question though.
What's the deal with phase boot? I usually build tread/urn/ into radiance, I just can't seem to understand why phaseboot can help you in any way beside chasing a bit better. Desolate is massive damage that scales with attack speed, dispersion is a great EHP booster that scales with stats, spectral dagger already give u phase, it just seem tread is superior in every aspect. You usually hit more often with phase than with treads on melee heroes. Phase active is not just "a bit better", it's a lot better early game when maxed desolate alone does tons of damage. If your team/the ennemy team allows you to reliably rightclick stuff, treads is indeed better. It's also better for farming.
Yeah, pretty much this. Tried both options quite a bit and I still go for Phase most of the time, I just feel more comfortable with it. Spectre is quite immobile outside of Spectral Dagger which you can't spam at the start anyway, and Phase helps you a lot. I don't know how many times I just can't chase hero at all with Treads and he escapes with low HP because I really have to commit if I want to kill him while with Phase I would get a few hits more and I usually get the kill with it or Urn.
Earlier in the game Phase provides more hits and more damage than Treads(unless your target stands still). Treads is definitely better for farming and if you need a bit more HP earlier in the game, while Phase provides better mobility for chasing and escaping, and to be honest I am more of a chasing Spectre player. I go for the Urn most of the time and look to fight with ulti and dagger as much as possible.
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I think the extra life / mana early game makes up for the phase ability. if you survive once with treads hp or get a kill with the bonus mana then it makes the justification pretty easy. You can make the argument about chasing but ideally you don't want to be chasing early game, you want to be farming and take easy kills with haunt. You have a team to make people slow / stunned.
especially for more greedy builds like pms->urn->radiance, treads gives you a bit more survivability/utility
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I like brown boots urn/roh radiance. Phase only if I feel is necessary.
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I thnk i know how duck plays his heroes now. the key notion is, what the fuck is a core item? go late game item asap #yoloswag.
duck's take on heros:
spectre: what's a tread/phase?
ember: what's a drum / phase? (actually, what's a flame guard? never heard of it i lvl it last)
tusk: what's a tread?
druid: what's a vlad?
xD
+ Show Spoiler + don't take it too serious I think you raise some good points I'm just seeing a trend here lol
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On June 12 2015 00:48 DucK- wrote:
I like brown boots urn/roh radiance. Phase only if I feel is necessary.
I don't know, I feel like I'm a tougher creep when playing Spectre with just brown boots.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 12 2015 01:16 evanthebouncy! wrote:+ Show Spoiler + don't take it too serious I think you raise some good points I'm just seeing a trend here lol
Trend is simple: get straight to core items with stuff only needed to get to this core item, rest is waste of gold.
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I think spectre is my new favorite hero. I just have a big problem when deciding what items to go in the laning phase. I feel like I want a poor man's shield, a quelling blade, an orb of venom, urn/ring of aquila. How do I decide what to get and what to skip?
Also, do people still go vanguard? When would it be a good idea?
Radiance seems to be the most popular first big item, but I often have problems choosing the item after it. The options seem to be manta/diffusal/heart/maybe skadi.
¨
Winning a game where you had a really rough early game is the best. I had a game where I had 10 cs after 10 minutes, in a 1v2 lane. Then we won the game anyway because they never managed to finish the game and I got very farmed later.
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On June 11 2015 22:38 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 21:33 Terrorbladder wrote:
Opinion on the MoM+Yasha build?
With a bit of awareness and ability to disappear from the map to farm with MoM you can reliably get PT+MoM+Yasha+Radiance in under 28 mins. Would not just MoM suffice? IIRC you can reliably get under 25 minute pt-MoM-Radiance even with a death or two. It might delay my Radiance but it is a very good transitional item, the +6 agi item is cost efficient, Yasha improves farming/chasing/running and DPS on both main hero+illusion.
Treads is superior to Phase once you get used to tread switching regularly, many people think that Phase is superior for farming with the +24 damage but imo Treads win. AGI treads = 8 bonus damage with 38 bonus AS >>> 24 bonus damage with 0 bonus AS.
Even in games where I get next to no farm in the laning phase I can still pull 6+ cs/min at the end just because how fast and efficient Treads+MoM are at clearing camps.
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On June 12 2015 02:52 Rawr wrote:
I think spectre is my new favorite hero. I just have a big problem when deciding what items to go in the laning phase. I feel like I want a poor man's shield, a quelling blade, an orb of venom, urn/ring of aquila. How do I decide what to get and what to skip?
Also, do people still go vanguard? When would it be a good idea?
Radiance seems to be the most popular first big item, but I often have problems choosing the item after it. The options seem to be manta/diffusal/heart/maybe skadi.
¨
Winning a game where you had a really rough early game is the best. I had a game where I had 10 cs after 10 minutes, in a 1v2 lane. Then we won the game anyway because they never managed to finish the game and I got very farmed later.
I used to go stout, tango, health potion, some branches. My higher mmr friend recommended going ring of protection, quelling blade, tango, branch into brown boots, aquilla, treads.
The later one actually is much easier to last hit with, just might need to ferry more regen out or start with health if you feel like lane will be tough.
I don't go vanguard, never did, sometimes I get a casual vit booster before going radiance and turn it into heart after.
And for after radiance, I have the same problem, it really depends on what you need. I feel like if you need damage, manta is really good with desolate, and gives all around good stuff. Diffusal after radiance I feel is unecessary. I think it's either manta/heart/skadi after radiance. Heart is best if you want to be the frontline, tank tower, and then regen out after. If you go radiance/heart/skadi, you hit hard and have so much health you are not unkillable but nobody wants to try.
Butterfly after you get health is really good too.
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SoCal8910 Posts
if you're having a bad game sometimes you gotta suck it up and get a vanguard. instead of the casual vit booster have you ever tried RoH and urn?
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On June 12 2015 03:12 the bear jew wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2015 02:52 Rawr wrote:
I think spectre is my new favorite hero. I just have a big problem when deciding what items to go in the laning phase. I feel like I want a poor man's shield, a quelling blade, an orb of venom, urn/ring of aquila. How do I decide what to get and what to skip?
Also, do people still go vanguard? When would it be a good idea?
Radiance seems to be the most popular first big item, but I often have problems choosing the item after it. The options seem to be manta/diffusal/heart/maybe skadi.
¨
Winning a game where you had a really rough early game is the best. I had a game where I had 10 cs after 10 minutes, in a 1v2 lane. Then we won the game anyway because they never managed to finish the game and I got very farmed later. I used to go stout, tango, health potion, some branches. My higher mmr friend recommended going ring of protection, quelling blade, tango, branch into brown boots, aquilla, treads. The later one actually is much easier to last hit with, just might need to ferry more regen out or start with health if you feel like lane will be tough. I don't go vanguard, never did, sometimes I get a casual vit booster before going radiance and turn it into heart after. And for after radiance, I have the same problem, it really depends on what you need. I feel like if you need damage, manta is really good with desolate, and gives all around good stuff. Diffusal after radiance I feel is unecessary. I think it's either manta/heart/skadi after radiance. Heart is best if you want to be the frontline, tank tower, and then regen out after. If you go radiance/heart/skadi, you hit hard and have so much health you are not unkillable but nobody wants to try. Butterfly after you get health is really good too.
I used to start with stout, salve, and one set of tangos. Now I prefer starting with ring of protection and buying stout and quelling at the side shop. That way I don't need the courier in the first few minutes and I can complete pms + ring of basilius at the side shop.
I think I build skadi more than I should, I just love the item. Building skadi and heart together feels like you don't have that much damage, although you do survive 1v5 almost. I think either heart or skadi + a damage item would be better.
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On June 12 2015 04:34 Rawr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2015 03:12 the bear jew wrote:On June 12 2015 02:52 Rawr wrote:
I think spectre is my new favorite hero. I just have a big problem when deciding what items to go in the laning phase. I feel like I want a poor man's shield, a quelling blade, an orb of venom, urn/ring of aquila. How do I decide what to get and what to skip?
Also, do people still go vanguard? When would it be a good idea?
Radiance seems to be the most popular first big item, but I often have problems choosing the item after it. The options seem to be manta/diffusal/heart/maybe skadi.
¨
Winning a game where you had a really rough early game is the best. I had a game where I had 10 cs after 10 minutes, in a 1v2 lane. Then we won the game anyway because they never managed to finish the game and I got very farmed later. I used to go stout, tango, health potion, some branches. My higher mmr friend recommended going ring of protection, quelling blade, tango, branch into brown boots, aquilla, treads. The later one actually is much easier to last hit with, just might need to ferry more regen out or start with health if you feel like lane will be tough. I don't go vanguard, never did, sometimes I get a casual vit booster before going radiance and turn it into heart after. And for after radiance, I have the same problem, it really depends on what you need. I feel like if you need damage, manta is really good with desolate, and gives all around good stuff. Diffusal after radiance I feel is unecessary. I think it's either manta/heart/skadi after radiance. Heart is best if you want to be the frontline, tank tower, and then regen out after. If you go radiance/heart/skadi, you hit hard and have so much health you are not unkillable but nobody wants to try. Butterfly after you get health is really good too. I used to start with stout, salve, and one set of tangos. Now I prefer starting with ring of protection and buying stout and quelling at the side shop. That way I don't need the courier in the first few minutes and I can complete pms + ring of basilius at the side shop. I think I build skadi more than I should, I just love the item. Building skadi and heart together feels like you don't have that much damage, although you do survive 1v5 almost. I think either heart or skadi + a damage item would be better.
Radiance/heart/skadi, boom damage.
But it depends, that build is great if you just need to be that frontline tank with some damage upfront, and a lot of damage overtime/when they try to kill you.
And for your vanguard question earlier, maybe if you aren't going radiance and you are going heavy gank spectre, getting early vanguard can be good. And then go into diffusal/manta and onward.
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Why do you even need RoB on Spec? Just leave Dagger and Haunt at level 1, put points into Desolate+Dispersion and Stats?
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On June 12 2015 05:00 Terrorbladder wrote:
Why do you even need RoB on Spec? Just leave Dagger and Haunt at level 1, put points into Desolate+Dispersion and Stats?
Leveling up dagger is good, move speed and chase is good. Aquilla gives good stats, can always use it to push and pressure tower if you get an unoccupied lane.
I can see leaving haunt level 1 for a while and get stats instead.
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Meh, I still see no merit in leveling Dagger past 1 early when each level makes it cost 10 additional mana, and Spectre is one of the hero with bad early health and damage. 1/4/4/1 is the way I usually go, until level 15 when I begin to level Haunt normally again.
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SoCal8910 Posts
20% slow for 7 seconds is pretty good
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On June 12 2015 05:38 Terrorbladder wrote:
Meh, I still see no merit in leveling Dagger past 1 early when each level makes it cost 10 additional mana, and Spectre is one of the hero with bad early health and damage. 1/4/4/1 is the way I usually go, until level 15 when I begin to level Haunt normally again.
Yepe this is what I do as well. The growth on dagger Seems so bad and the mana cost so high.
I just haunt to kill steal with dagger and urn until radiance. I guess if your team needs a frontman you should vanguard, but usually for just laning and farming lvl up dispersion first helps a ton.
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On June 12 2015 07:20 evanthebouncy! wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2015 05:38 Terrorbladder wrote:
Meh, I still see no merit in leveling Dagger past 1 early when each level makes it cost 10 additional mana, and Spectre is one of the hero with bad early health and damage. 1/4/4/1 is the way I usually go, until level 15 when I begin to level Haunt normally again. Yepe this is what I do as well. The growth on dagger Seems so bad and the mana cost so high. I just haunt to kill steal with dagger and urn until radiance. I guess if your team needs a frontman you should vanguard, but usually for just laning and farming lvl up dispersion first helps a ton.
Uh you really shouldn't level up Dispersion in the early game, even stats are better. Dispersion scales awfully and 1 level is enough in the early game. I usually leave it at level 1 up to the level 14-15, where I start to level it up again as I usually have more than 1200 HP then.
Having level 1 Dagger is like having no Dagger at all(except for escaping, going through the trees and cliffs), you can barely see the difference. If you want just to farm and use ulti for some damage/assist that is fine, but if you need to get a few kills you won't get it without Dagger being at least level 2-3, unless you have heavy disabler heroes on your side.
It is even more confusing that you were asking "why would anyone go for Treads instead of Phase" and then you tell me that you don't go for more than 1 point in Dagger. How are you killing anything at all? If you jump with a Haunt on a hero with 20% HP, and that hero has stun and/or slow, you won't be able to kill him with level 1 Dagger.
Dagger also gives you that little burst(even though it is small compared to some other heroes) and since the new patch where you are exchanging the positions with illusions you can Haunt on a hero, do 1-2 auto-attacks + level 4 Dagger(+ Urn if possible) and Haunt back to your lane. Unless enemy hero is at like 5-10% HP, you can't do that without maxed out Dagger. You will be forced to chase too much, sometimes without even getting a kill and you won't be able to get back to your lane with Haunt. Even if you manage to get a kill, not being able to get back to your lane usually isn't worth it.
There are quite a few build-ups that I've tried, 3-2-0-1, 2-3-0-1. 2-2-1-1, 1-3-1-1 etc. but they all end up with 4-4-1-1, leveling up dispersion is just horrible.
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Just gonna throw this one out there, Refresher is a completely legit choice if game goes the distance. You can afford to spend 1 ult to scout and 1 ult to fight.
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About skillbuilds, I remember watching both arteezy and s4 play a couple of games of spectre on stream some time ago. Arteezy sometimes went 1-1-1 with stats, kind of like most people do on anti mage. I think that works well in games were you are pressured in the lane. Although he did max dagger first the most, iirc.
S4 often went something like 2-3-1-1 at level 7, sometimes taking stats over dispersion. He also went mom for farming faster I think, but that was when everyone built mom on every carry to farm faster.
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On June 12 2015 08:55 Terrorbladder wrote:
Just gonna throw this one out there, Refresher is a completely legit choice if game goes the distance. You can afford to spend 1 ult to scout and 1 ult to fight.
You are doing wrong.
1 ult at the beginning of fight. Go crazy and go 1v5. If you die just buyback. Use refresh and clean enemy team :D
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On June 12 2015 08:51 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2015 07:20 evanthebouncy! wrote:On June 12 2015 05:38 Terrorbladder wrote:
Meh, I still see no merit in leveling Dagger past 1 early when each level makes it cost 10 additional mana, and Spectre is one of the hero with bad early health and damage. 1/4/4/1 is the way I usually go, until level 15 when I begin to level Haunt normally again. Yepe this is what I do as well. The growth on dagger Seems so bad and the mana cost so high. I just haunt to kill steal with dagger and urn until radiance. I guess if your team needs a frontman you should vanguard, but usually for just laning and farming lvl up dispersion first helps a ton. Uh you really shouldn't level up Dispersion in the early game, even stats are better. Dispersion scales awfully and 1 level is enough in the early game. I usually leave it at level 1 up to the level 14-15, where I start to level it up again as I usually have more than 1200 HP then. Having level 1 Dagger is like having no Dagger at all(except for escaping, going through the trees and cliffs), you can barely see the difference. If you want just to farm and use ulti for some damage/assist that is fine, but if you need to get a few kills you won't get it without Dagger being at least level 2-3, unless you have heavy disabler heroes on your side. It is even more confusing that you were asking "why would anyone go for Treads instead of Phase" and then you tell me that you don't go for more than 1 point in Dagger. How are you killing anything at all? If you jump with a Haunt on a hero with 20% HP, and that hero has stun and/or slow, you won't be able to kill him with level 1 Dagger. Dagger also gives you that little burst(even though it is small compared to some other heroes) and since the new patch where you are exchanging the positions with illusions you can Haunt on a hero, do 1-2 auto-attacks + level 4 Dagger(+ Urn if possible) and Haunt back to your lane. Unless enemy hero is at like 5-10% HP, you can't do that without maxed out Dagger. You will be forced to chase too much, sometimes without even getting a kill and you won't be able to get back to your lane with Haunt. Even if you manage to get a kill, not being able to get back to your lane usually isn't worth it. There are quite a few build-ups that I've tried, 3-2-0-1, 2-3-0-1. 2-2-1-1, 1-3-1-1 etc. but they all end up with 4-4-1-1, leveling up dispersion is just horrible.
i see. I usually only haunt on 5% hero and kill with 1 hit and go back to farming.
But i could see dispersion is not worth maxing over stats, I think I'll get more stats.
The problem with maxing dagger is you're sitting around 300-ish mana at lvl 6, 7, and your ult+dagger is a whooping 310 mana. That leaves you with very little room to play with. If someone gank you and you try to escape with dagger, you are basically manaless for the team fight (60+ more mana used for the 2 daggers).
I think the point is you will take dispersion/stats just so you can survive and farm well, and the rest should be into dagger / desolate as mana allows. I could live with that.
How is the MoM build though? I have a feeling it's quite strong tbh
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On June 12 2015 09:25 evanthebouncy! wrote:
i see. I usually only haunt on 5% hero and kill with 1 hit and go back to farming.
But i could see dispersion is not worth maxing over stats, I think I'll get more stats.
The problem with maxing dagger is you're sitting around 300-ish mana at lvl 6, 7, and your ult+dagger is a whooping 310 mana. That leaves you with very little room to play with. If someone gank you and you try to escape with dagger, you are basically manaless for the team fight (60+ more mana used for the 2 daggers).
I think the point is you will take dispersion/stats just so you can survive and farm well, and the rest should be into dagger / desolate as mana allows. I could live with that.
How is the MoM build though? I have a feeling it's quite strong tbh
Yeah Dagger costs a lot of mana, but you are using both your spells so rarely that you will have mana most of the time(unless you are trying to kill offlaner a lot with your allies). If you use Dagger to escape than that's it, you won't have enough mana for Haunt + Dagger for the next minute or so, 30 mana won't really make a difference and you are certainly doing more with that 160 level 4 Dagger than with 130 mana level 1 Dagger.
If you are going Treads it's even better since switching it to +9 int gives you a lot of mana. Urn and/or Aquila helps you with mana regen and Aquila also gives you some int. Try maxing Dagger, you will see that if you use it correctly(not spamming it or using it on a hero that you aren't sure you could get a kill) that you will always have enough mana for it.
About MoM, I've tried it few times and I got a mixed feeling about it.
On one hand MoM speeds up your farm and you are scarier in the early game, you can safely clear jungle, and when you get Radiance you don't need few more minutes to farm something else, you can fight already.
On the other hand it costs 2000 and if you don't try you don't know if you would be able to rush Radiance straight away, and maybe you would end up better with Radiance rush. 100% AS and 17% MS is great, but 30% more damage taken can easily screw you over and you have to be sure when you are chasing somebody or when jumping with Haunt on somebody, that he won't be able to turn back and blow you up in 3 seconds.
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On June 12 2015 02:52 Rawr wrote:
I think spectre is my new favorite hero. I just have a big problem when deciding what items to go in the laning phase. I feel like I want a poor man's shield, a quelling blade, an orb of venom, urn/ring of aquila. How do I decide what to get and what to skip?
Also, do people still go vanguard? When would it be a good idea?
Radiance seems to be the most popular first big item, but I often have problems choosing the item after it. The options seem to be manta/diffusal/heart/maybe skadi.
¨
Winning a game where you had a really rough early game is the best. I had a game where I had 10 cs after 10 minutes, in a 1v2 lane. Then we won the game anyway because they never managed to finish the game and I got very farmed later.
After radiance you should go manta or heart. Manta gives you survivability while increasing how fast you can farm but isn't as survivable as a heart. Manta also lets you isolate someone in a team fight and obliterate them. So you need to decide if you need all the HP from heart immediately or if the manta first is better. You can also go vit booster --> Manta --> finish heart which is pretty common too. I think diffusal is stupid since it makes you a glass cannon. A manta gives you higher kill potential on individual targets, while the diffusal increases your damage for your haunt. Manta also lets you farm faster with your illusions.
Generally, I find manta is a better option when you are even/ahead and heart is better when they can burst you/kill you easily and are behind. If you have freedom to farm, the Manta increases your farming efficiency by quite a lot.
skadi doesn't really give you sustain like a heart does so it's probably not ideal. You can weave out of fights with your dagger really easily and utilize the heart regen, skadi doesn't give you that utility.
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On June 12 2015 05:38 Terrorbladder wrote:
Meh, I still see no merit in leveling Dagger past 1 early when each level makes it cost 10 additional mana, and Spectre is one of the hero with bad early health and damage. 1/4/4/1 is the way I usually go, until level 15 when I begin to level Haunt normally again.
People who max dispersion make me want to punch myself in the face It's not just 5% scaling per level. Its 5% more for you, and 5% less for them. 1 level of dispersion early if you feel you absolutely need it. You need to max desolate/dagger to get you kills in the early/mid game team fights. It's how you compensate for Spectre's trash farming ability pre radiance.
And yeah, late game double haunt with a refresher is dirty as fuck.
Oh and you never want vanguard but sometimes in difficult games you need it. It's good vs something like undying or meepo, or people who want GTFO of your lane because you can ignore most harass and also transition into the jungle. The jungling is still slow, but you won't really lose HP.
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Has anyone tried to go stats-heavy on her early on? I feel like even with urn she's super squishy and tbh her abilites arent that great early on, because you dont deal that much damage either way. She doesnt has that much killing potential and her base hp is freaking terrible.
I mean max dagger max desolate is a no brainer when your team is snowballing like crazy, but there are lots of spectre games where allies favorite job seems to be feeding the enemy and the enemies favorite job is camping in your jungle or on your safelane. More hp could allow her to splitpush more safely, because dagger is actually a decent escape skill if she is allowed to use it.
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On June 17 2015 12:14 Blackfeather wrote:
Has anyone tried to go stats-heavy on her early on? I feel like even with urn she's super squishy and tbh her abilites arent that great early on, because you dont deal that much damage either way. She doesnt has that much killing potential and her base hp is freaking terrible.
I mean max dagger max desolate is a no brainer when your team is snowballing like crazy, but there are lots of spectre games where allies favorite job seems to be feeding the enemy and the enemies favorite job is camping in your jungle or on your safelane. More hp could allow her to splitpush more safely, because dagger is actually a decent escape skill if she is allowed to use it.
I've played the 1/1/1 with MoM but it's hard to say when it's good. If they have lots of killing potential early and you can't farm the lane safely it is pretty good imo but if your team actually does well i'd rather take the max dagger/desolate with urn and get em kills as well.
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Stats heavy sounds stupid given that if you have a shit lane, you're likely not to achieve much with stats anyway. And in that lane I would simply hope for experience, and try to recover with maxed desolate haunt kills.
And yes 2+ points in dispersion before level 12 is stupid.
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Dagger also scales decently if you look at the numbers. +50 damage and +4% your movespeed, -4% enemy movespeed per level. Add that to the fact that level 1 dagger is kind of terrible, dealing almost no damage and only an 8% movespeed increase with 8% slow, you kind of do want to max it. With desolate of course for actual damage.
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I've tried MoM multiple times and the more I try it the more I am unsatisfied with it. Your killing potential isn't that great with MoM if you don't have Dagger and Desolate maxed, and when you turn it on you are really squishy.
I still feel that Treads/Phase into PMS/Aquila/Urn/Bracer(and maybe even casual vitality/point booster if you think that you lack survivability) into Radiance is the best way to go, at least it was quite successful for me so far.
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On June 17 2015 13:39 DucK- wrote:
Stats heavy sounds stupid given that if you have a shit lane, you're likely not to achieve much with stats anyway. And in that lane I would simply hope for experience, and try to recover with maxed desolate haunt kills.
And yes 2+ points in dispersion before level 12 is stupid.
The point is more that if you have a hard time and are underleveled desolate wont do much anyways, because you wont get many hits out and most of the gold is aoe-gold, which means that you need to commit to salvage your early game. Also if you are underleveled and the enemies supports have a good game, it's not that unlikely that they just throw a spell at your illu and get rid of it.
Dispersion scales terribly in the early game, which leaves dagger as the only useful skill for leveling purposes in the scenario that you are loosing two of three lanes (which isnt that unlikely considering that spectre's laning presence is abysmal and low-medium lvl pubs have duals most of the time).
With early stats and maybe mom you might be able to splitpush and farm their jungle if they start to occupy yours, health is after all a deciding factor in how far you can push out the lane.
On June 17 2015 12:54 Daray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 12:14 Blackfeather wrote:
Has anyone tried to go stats-heavy on her early on? I feel like even with urn she's super squishy and tbh her abilites arent that great early on, because you dont deal that much damage either way. She doesnt has that much killing potential and her base hp is freaking terrible.
I mean max dagger max desolate is a no brainer when your team is snowballing like crazy, but there are lots of spectre games where allies favorite job seems to be feeding the enemy and the enemies favorite job is camping in your jungle or on your safelane. More hp could allow her to splitpush more safely, because dagger is actually a decent escape skill if she is allowed to use it. I've played the 1/1/1 with MoM but it's hard to say when it's good. If they have lots of killing potential early and you can't farm the lane safely it is pretty good imo but if your team actually does well i'd rather take the max dagger/desolate with urn and get em kills as well.
Thanks that was pretty much what i was looking for.
On June 17 2015 19:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:
I've tried MoM multiple times and the more I try it the more I am unsatisfied with it. Your killing potential isn't that great with MoM if you don't have Dagger and Desolate maxed, and when you turn it on you are really squishy.
I still feel that Treads/Phase into PMS/Aquila/Urn/Bracer(and maybe even casual vitality/point booster if you think that you lack survivability) into Radiance is the best way to go, at least it was quite successful for me so far.
I think the main selling point with mom is that you can farm the jungle, not the chasing/damage potential. I had multiple games where I was stuck at 3.4k gold when the enemies started camping our safelane with their safelane supports as well as their offlane and their mid went hiding. With mom you can rotate to the jungle where you suspect less enemy activity and farm. As weird as that may sound, I think MoM is the item you get when the enemies are snowballing and they dont have a super good in-your-face-chainstun-initiation, it's not an early fighting item like on void or jugg.
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I have started playing spectre against bots to learn the hero and I don't understand how you farm with the hero. There are no way to spam out a wave and no real wave clear or jungling skills. Is all the farm accumulated just by farming lane or am i missing some tricks?
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On June 29 2015 19:38 manicmessiah wrote:
I have started playing spectre against bots to learn the hero and I don't understand how you farm with the hero. There are no way to spam out a wave and no real wave clear or jungling skills. Is all the farm accumulated just by farming lane or am i missing some tricks?
Spectre is a pretty bad farmer before radiance indeed. Of course this doesn't mean that you can't farm jungle camps, it's just relatively slow. But you should still do it if there is no lane farm currently available. In the jungle it's good to use his spectral dagger so that you finish off one camp with it and also hit the next camp you are farming to maximize the damage and minimize the time you spend walking between the camps.
But the benefit of Spectre is that you can be quietly sitting on a lane farming and still participate in fights. You should always be aware of what is going on elsewhere when your ultimate is up as your damage output isn't even too bad with desolate (and dagger which can allow you to hit a target) and you can often easily take out some people who are low and trying to get away from the fight. Also unlike a lot of other carries Spectre doesn't really need to be ahead in net worth to get to a stage where he is very powerful.
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Learn how to abuse radiance to pull/stack multiple camps forth and back to reduce the damage you take from jungling while simultaneously speeding up farm. Potentially buy a casual morbid mask. Outside of that it's really all down to decision making.
It's not the type of hero that easily speeds up to 12+ cs/min, but it also doesn't need to.
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Spectre's the trademark 'be behind 10k gold and in a winning position' hero. Just think of the misery of farming before radiance as your penitence for how much you're going to own afterwards.
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On June 29 2015 23:13 Orome wrote:
Spectre's the trademark 'be behind 10k gold and in a winning position' hero. Just think of the misery of farming before radiance as your penitence for how much you're going to own afterwards.
This. Have had games where i get my radiance as late as 25min but the second i do we pretty much start winning the game. Difference is pretty damn big,
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Yeah spec gets a lot of her gold from ksing with ult.
RoH helps your sustain for jungle forays and builds into refresher (or vanguard if you have to...).
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I can understand that PTreads are probably better for Spectre than Phase boots, at least when it comes to AS.. what I can't stand though is not having enough MS to secure kills. Just personal preference or are PTs really much better than Phase?
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i think most people prefer phase, either is fine i think
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On June 29 2015 19:38 manicmessiah wrote:
I have started playing spectre against bots to learn the hero and I don't understand how you farm with the hero. There are no way to spam out a wave and no real wave clear or jungling skills. Is all the farm accumulated just by farming lane or am i missing some tricks?
Max dagger first, buy aquila (maybe soulring works, I haven't tried), pms, and quelling, and go hit creeps. Use dagger to push lane if you can farm it and go jungle as is possible. Stack jungle camps as is possible, and aim dagger to hit multiple camps. Especially if you haven't stacked the camp you can finish it before dagger is gone, and phase through trees to get to the next camp quickly.
Try and fight every ult cd. Let your team know 20s out to group and look for fights. Tp home about 10s before ult comes up or before fight whenever your team or a gank is ready to heal up. When you're healthy ult and kill the easiest targets. Don't be afraid to keep fighting as you get close to finishing relic, as you need to maintain your fight tempo to get close to an acceptable relic timing.
Level dispersion after you max desolate instead of another point in ult (until radiance is done). Don't fucking level stats, as poor scaling as extra levels in dispersion has, further levels in the skill far outweigh the benefits of 2 agl, 38 hp, and 2/7 armour. Dispersion lets you jungle longer without wasting gold on a ring of health or vanguard, and lets you tank nukes and tower shots in fights to finish kills-- both of which are important sources of pre-radiance income.
I prefer phase, but treads aren't horrible, especially if you're stylistically/preferentially prone to abandoning radiance timing for diffusal blade (or their heroes make early diffusal really attractive, e.g. wk or medusa). If you make treads be sure to tread swap every spell you cast, with the exception of in-fountain ults-- that +9 agl could allow an extra desolate swing on your illusions-- a big deal.
I find building a casual yasha improves my income without compromising relic timing. If you're really suffering it can make a manta-first major item if diffusal doesn't look game-swingingly redeeming. Even with really good starts I find I usually don't get relic sooner by skipping the yasha. Maybe treads openings get relic sooner, I dunno yet. You do have to be careful with dagger use on phase-- always need mana for either fountain tps prior to ulting or dagger and/or ult use for escape purposes. Tread swapping makes your mana go a long way, though you probably need orb of venom to finish pre-relic kills without phase active.
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just keep in mind your full combo is 310 mana (160 dagger 150 haunt)
you definitely need to kill steal with ults on every cd to get a good item timing. desolate against solo offlane is actually fairly strong. If you just tp from base and have fountain regen, it is great to dagger the offlane and chase, you will guaranteed to chip away 60% of his HP.
I'll have to try the yasha first, it seems pretty smooth item to build and I really detest naked relic, even after urn/tread I think it is quite weak.
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On June 17 2015 19:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:
I've tried MoM multiple times and the more I try it the more I am unsatisfied with it. Your killing potential isn't that great with MoM if you don't have Dagger and Desolate maxed, and when you turn it on you are really squishy.
I still feel that Treads/Phase into PMS/Aquila/Urn/Bracer(and maybe even casual vitality/point booster if you think that you lack survivability) into Radiance is the best way to go, at least it was quite successful for me so far.
the point of mom isnt more about killing potential, its about ability to farm the jungle fast.
i only go mom if my team is completely unable to win fights and if any item i get is unable to change that. amongst many other conditions
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I don't like the madness. A yasha for a comparable price increases your farm rate, improves your capacity to get kills with your ult, builds into a core item that you can situationally adapt to build as your first major item, improves your surviveability with movement speed and armour, has direct synergy with your kit (illusions), and doesn't remove your biggest early saving grace (dispersion damage reflect).
Madness interrupts your build, takes up an item slot you don't really have on a hero who gets a lot out of small early items, and just doesn't offer enough for the sacrifices you make to build it. Furthermore using it every cd to farm is a non-negligible increase in mana consumption, a handicap early spectre is already hampered with.
Building madness when your team cannot possibly fight is madness, as in those scenarios you either need to passively complete a radiance or need to abandon it in favour of manta or diffusal, as is appropriate. The point of a madness is it's an item that both increases farm rate and fighting capacity through the increased chasing power and ias. The reason it's potentially viable on spectre is because she isn't as hard hit by the damage amplification thanks to dispersion, but removing the reflect means she needs more hp which you normally wouldn't want to build yet.
Furthermore you don't get as big an increase in dps as with other heroes who build madness because 1. you have to chase to get your kills, unlike a sniper who shoots from range and has a powerful slow on-hit, or jugg who is invulnerable during ult, or bashing heroes who bash their targets to keep them from running, which means your vulnerability to being controlled can limit your capacity to fully utilize the increased ias; then 2. your on-hit damage can be removed by your targets hugging their creeps or teammates. Basically if you can guarantee to hit them with desolate repeatedly they're either already going to die or you picked the wrong fucking target to begin with. If you aren't getting desolate procs even if they're standing still your pathetic damage isn't going to feel better with just the attack speed increase.
I also strongly disagree with the Urn people have mentioned. It provides vastly inferior stats and utility compared to a ring of aquila. If you're doing well and getting kills with your ult you don't really need the urn charge hp regen, as whatever regen in and between fights your team can't cover are remedied by fountain trips, which don't hamper your pitiful farm rate much. The mana regen of a sage mask falls very short of covering her mana needs. The strength it provides isn't worth the trade-off in dps and armour aquila provides. Lastly, if the offensive capacity of an urn makes the difference between getting a kill and letting him get away, you probably misused your ult. Getting the charges requires already being able to get kills or at least merely survive fights, but if it's the former you don't need the urn at all, and if it's the latter you're probably better served either farming more or using your ult better.
With the stats, armour, dps, and damage block from poor man's shield, aquila, and yasha (I don't claim the yasha is necessary, but over a lot of games I've never been disappointed by having it, and have always regretted skipping it when I thought I could get a really fast radiance by skipping it (I was wrong every time, or at least not right to a sufficient margin)) you can sustain jungling for the duration of your ult cd at about as good a rate as you can hope to achieve prior to radiance while retaining high combat effectiveness as well (which is more important on her-- I would rather be able to fight and suck at farming than rock at farming and be unable to fight, since you don't come online early enough or provide enough pressure once you hit radiance (like a naga or sylla) to make up for your initial uselessness; and furthermore if you can't fight with your team you're probably completely losing map control, making farming impossible anyway).
Pretty much you need to earn the space to farm your radiance, unless despite the horribly weak lanes your spectre pick gave your team your mid and offlane are both already snowballing on their own (and even then in that scenario picking on you is probably the only thing the enemy team can do, which will punish you if you're not equipped or prepared to fight prior to radiance).
So to clarify, the progression I swear by in the vast majority of games is quelling (you'll hang on to it for a long time), poor man's shield, phase boots or treads, ring of aquila, band of elvenskin (filling your last slot after tp), yasha, relic (replaces pms), radiance, manta. In most games all adaptations come after that point, though in some games it makes sense to either go manta before radiance (if everything sucks and diffusal isn't obviously perfect vs their team), and in some games diffusal manta instead of (or before) radiance makes sense based on the enemy team's heroes.
I have exclusively used phase boots until recently, and had been using them since the original inception of phase drum spectre (don't make drum now) to great success. Recently I started trying out treads and am not sure yet if one is obviously better than the other. The change in quelling blade I think makes phase boots less attractive now than before, but I imagine the choice will remain situational rather than one being objectively better. I'm still working on figuring that out.
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Poor mans dota.... I still believe that if you aim for a radiance+refresher-build, an atos synergizes very well in pubs (no matter how you get to the desired items below, boots which one you prefer). Having every skill and item twice in an early fight and having enough manapool to execute that combo perfectly is just really satisfying (and its pretty noob friendly).
![[image loading]](http://snag.gy/R5QN6.jpg)
130 == Spectral dagger
130 == Spectral dagger
150 == Haunt
150 == Haunt
..50 == Atos cripple
..50 == Atos cripple
375 == Refresher
------- +
1035 Manapool needed (1095 mana available).
+ Show Spoiler [devilisk screengrab] +
In a general game i think AC+Abyssal to get 6-slotted would fit nicely.
Most semi pro's don’t like it that much iirc, but whatever.
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u can just tp back to fountain b4 u haunt
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don’t use spectral dagger to flashfarm;)
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No, don't build Atos on Spectre ever, please. She does not need the intelligence, she doesn't need the slow, and she doesn't need the hp that early: hp is secondary in priority to other assets (farm rate and/or dps come first), and there are far better hp sources than Atos. The item offers nothing.
Secondly, regarding refresher: I only build it as a game-ending item if I've snowballed out of control and can afford diffusal2 and refresher by the 30 minute mark. You can hang on to 1 for the charges if you actually need them before upgrading. At 30 minutes, the damage from 14s of radiance burn and manaburn on their entire team forces them to back to heal, which gives you a free t3 and rax if nothing else. Usually you'll kill their supports outright since they lack bkb, unless they anticipate the refresher and immediately tp fountain before the second ult. Don't let them see the build-up. If you're trying to hit a specific timing and are snowballing you could skip manta (I'd keep the yasha though) to get it sooner if you know they don't have any capacity to survive the magic damage onslaught.
Remember that almost all of Spectre's damage for most of the game is magical or pure, and thus is blocked by bkb (I don't actually know why manaburn is blocked by bkb, as it's physical damage, but the point is bkb shuts down your damage, which can negate your ult entirely on targets you aren't personally chasing). Therefore it makes no sense to blindly get refresher, especially when it's not hitting that specific timing window. If by the time you get refresher the enemy team has bkbs or a pipe or glimmer capes, etc, you're losing most if not all the damage that 5k item provides. If you went straight Radiance Refresher that 5k is a manta or heart. If you already have manta diffusal then that's either your heart or bfly.
The refresher gives you a weak first 6-slot (should be phase/treads radiance manta diffusal2 refresher and either heart or bfly following the refresher), so if you can't end the game on completion of the item or very rapidly get a healthy return on your investment you're actually giving the enemy carry a chance to stay in the game and catch up. Remember their carry doesn't need to be able to 1v1 you to stay in game, he just has to be able to kill your team and survive you. Many carries already build bkb as part of their normal item progression, which stops most of your damage.
In a vacuum your first 6slot should be treads/phase radiance manta heart bfly abyssal. It doesn't make sense to build refresher and not have the diffusal blade, since refresher only effects your ult's damage, and grabbing mana burn maximizes your ult's damage, so you lose 2 item slots in your first 6slot by running the refresher build.
You should absolutely be using Dagger to farm. Flashfarming isn't a thing on Spectre, but maximizing your farm rate at every given time in the game is a thing on all carries. Even if you lose some of the gold on TP scrolls for fountain trips prior to ults by not strictly conserving your mana you gain a lot more xp in exchange, which as you level translates to a faster farm rate and higher combat effectiveness.
Also remember that even if you do choose to conserve your mana rather than pay for the means to sustain mana usage outside of fights, one important tactic with spectre is at certain points in the game deliberately die first in a teamfight to deal damage with dispersion and whatever else you have without your ult, to buy-back and wreck the enemy with your ult. The same tactic can be employed with a refresher from your fountain following a buy-back, guaranteeing you have more than enough mana for the double ult. I would recommend against an ult death buyback refresh ult, since the point of the refresher is that initial massive hp deficit you inflict on their entire team, but in some scenario where you for some reason are carrying enough gold to buy refresher (or have it already sitting in stash) and to buy-back maybe it makes sense as a surprise-clean-up.
I really don't understand the dual tactics of trying to not use your spells to farm, and then building high-int items for the purpose of being able to blow your mana on the field to avoid using the fountain for 100 gold. If you're building regen/int items it should be to accelerate your farm by allowing you to use your spells more often. By both avoiding farming with dagger and wasting gold on a useless item (for spectre) like Atos, you're going out of your way to minimize your farm rate, which is objectively a bad idea in dota in general, especially on a hard carry like spectre.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On July 08 2015 07:08 govie wrote:Poor mans dota.... I still believe that if you aim for a radiance+refresher-build, an atos synergizes very well in pubs (no matter how you get to the desired items below, boots which one you prefer). Having every skill and item twice in an early fight and having enough manapool to execute that combo perfectly is just really satisfying (and its pretty noob friendly). 130 == Spectral dagger 130 == Spectral dagger 150 == Haunt 150 == Haunt ..50 == Atos cripple ..50 == Atos cripple 375 == Refresher ------- + 1035 Manapool needed (1095 mana available). + Show Spoiler [devilisk screengrab] +In a general game i think AC+Abyssal to get 6-slotted would fit nicely. Most semi pro's don’t like it that much iirc, but whatever.
They don't like it bc your illusions deal like no dmg. Simply daggering your target is more than sufficient. Spend that money on something else that benefits your illusions when you haunt.
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@Nightmarjoo
mom vs yasha are not comparable you need a form of regen for spectre almost every game, options being urn, roh(vang/casual roh for rfo), mask of death(typically into mom) - choose one.
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I already explained why that's not true. You don't need hp regen-- armour from early agility items and damage block from pms and damage reflection from dispersion are enough to allow you to jungle between ults. All the hp regen you need comes from tping to fountain right before you ult.
The only time this isn't true is if you're getting hunted hard by extremely strong solo gankers (usually invis heroes like bh or riki, and only if they're already fed). And the answer there is grouping and not farming alone, not wasting money on an item just for the sake of feeling more comfortable with hp regen that you don't need.
In rare scenarios you may need to buy a vanguard to survive at all, whether you're alone or not (vs high burst heroes, such as very fed tinkers or very fed storms or very fed qops, etc-- heroes you can't just dagger through the trees away from, or who burst you during orchid before you can dagger or ult away). Even in these scenarios you're not going vanguard first item (I would stay the progression I mentioned before through yasha), and you certainly are not building madness.
I didn't say the items were comparable except in price: the yasha is simply superior for the reasons I have already explained.
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uh refresher is one of the strongest initial 6slot items
for the vast majority of supports they need to blow spells and/or item cooldowns just to live through double haunt, and by then the teamfight is pretty much won
also manta refresher is generally stronger than diffusal refresher, because u can pick someone and just kill them during the second haunt while their entire team is forced to run around
in fact imo diffusals an awful item most of the time, unless u really need to purge something in particular (like morph illu or something)
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On July 08 2015 11:18 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2015 07:08 govie wrote:Poor mans dota.... I still believe that if you aim for a radiance+refresher-build, an atos synergizes very well in pubs (no matter how you get to the desired items below, boots which one you prefer). Having every skill and item twice in an early fight and having enough manapool to execute that combo perfectly is just really satisfying (and its pretty noob friendly). 130 == Spectral dagger 130 == Spectral dagger 150 == Haunt 150 == Haunt ..50 == Atos cripple ..50 == Atos cripple 375 == Refresher ------- + 1035 Manapool needed (1095 mana available). + Show Spoiler [devilisk screengrab] +In a general game i think AC+Abyssal to get 6-slotted would fit nicely. Most semi pro's don’t like it that much iirc, but whatever. They don't like it bc your illusions deal like no dmg. Simply daggering your target is more than sufficient. Spend that money on something else that benefits your illusions when you haunt.
Yes, most go for expensive stat-items on a hero which haunt-illusions only do 30% damage. When spectre hits for 100 damage, illusions only do 30 damage. Desolate only counts if a hero is alone so that seems less reliable around mid/lategame. It takes a long time before spectre becomes really scary this way. Don’t get me wrong, I like that pro-build, but it takes me alot longer to farm all those items and become scary (my individual skill is alot lower).
I choose to invest in enough EHP so that the illusions can last two full duration haunts at an early timing and let the radiance and maybe desolate go to work, twice. I have tried to build spectre with manta refresher radiance + other items, but then spectre still does not have enough manapool to use everything twice. Besides that, the surprise refresher timing will be later if you choose to go a more expensive route. For me, it's a trade off, gaining an extra timing earlier with a 3k gold investment. Gold-efficiency wise its not that great, timingwise it is very nice. I try to create an acceptable Return of Investment or win the game with the cheap triple-item-combo.
E: Granting your team 12 second 17% evasion instead of only 6 seconds is nice too. But it's hard for me to quantify the impact of that. Against a drow- or minusarmour strategy it should prove usefull.
On July 08 2015 09:27 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I really don't understand the dual tactics of trying to not use your spells to farm, and then building high-int items for the purpose of being able to blow your mana on the field to avoid using the fountain for 100 gold.
You made me laugh with the above sentence As i see it, once you have that 15.5k gold triple-item combo, the threat of the double haunt must be present at all times. Before that timing, you can use the mana anyway you find appropriate.
All your other arguments are debatable from my point of view. Like, if my early refresher baits a couple of 10 second bkb's charges, i probably won the game just by favouring an earlier refresher build. The lower the bkb charges get, the more impactfull rod of atos becomes (besides al the stats). Just for fun: maybe we should calculate the difference in damage output & input in a 5v5 teamfight between my 15.5k and your 15.5k or 20k gold-timing (without a refresher), that could provide some insight (for me atleast). As a melee hero i find it hard to actually initiate some rightclicks, atos' 1200 ranged instant cripple solves that problem to some degree. I think almost all itembuilds have merit, i just like mine to be more impactfull earlier.
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I'll give it a go and try to calculate the difference in damage dealt
Your 15.425 gold build : PT's + Radiance + Manta + Diffusal lvl2
Mine 15.400 gold build : PT's + Radiance + Atos + Refresher
+ Show Spoiler +Burndamage : 50 * 5 hero's * 7 seconds = 1750 damage
Hero rightclick damage is about equal.
Your rightclick statdamage = 162 @ a/s 1.66
My rightclick statdamage = 100 @ a/s 1.21
Your haunt rightclick damage = (48,3 + 25) * 1.66 * 7 seconds * 4 hero's = 3407 haunt rightclick damage
My haunt rightclick damage = 30 * 1.21 * 7 seconds * 4 hero's= 1016 haunt rightclick damage
Total damage dealt by your build : 3407 + 1750 = 5157 damage
Total damage dealt by my build : 1016 + 1750 +1750 = 4516 damage
Difference should be about 540 damage.
Your damage output seems to be slightly higher, not gamebreaking but it surprised me to say the least. The question that’s left seems to be if you want a double haunt+evasion+dagger+1200 ranged slow or a single dispel+dagger+haunt+600 ranged purge and the build-up that goes with both.
Interesting... I lost a couple of games where i snowballed pretty hard until the 15k mark, but wasn’t strong enough to stop the enemy from going highground. That’s why I initially changed from something like your itembuild, to the atos+resfresher build. Having more haunts seemed logical for coping with the timings i faced (against broken troll etcetc), i dont like losing games when i go 10-0-10 on spectre. Allways having a haunt up feels a bit similar to having magnus' RP up, it deters alot without even using it. I used it as a different approach to get 6-slotted. I still like the itemcombo, maybe it isn’t allways the most optimal itembuild, but with double ultimate i can misuse a haunt without losing the game.
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Also remember that if the heroes are close enough to not get multiple radiances on them, the proportional difference of the diffusal build will increase (it'll still be 540, but it'll be from a lower base line).
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On July 08 2015 22:26 Gowerly wrote:
Also remember that if the heroes are close enough to not get multiple radiances on them, the proportional difference of the diffusal build will increase (it'll still be 540, but it'll be from a lower base line).
if they have some mana leftovers
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SoCal8910 Posts
On July 08 2015 17:53 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2015 11:18 BluemoonSC wrote:On July 08 2015 07:08 govie wrote:Poor mans dota.... I still believe that if you aim for a radiance+refresher-build, an atos synergizes very well in pubs (no matter how you get to the desired items below, boots which one you prefer). Having every skill and item twice in an early fight and having enough manapool to execute that combo perfectly is just really satisfying (and its pretty noob friendly). 130 == Spectral dagger 130 == Spectral dagger 150 == Haunt 150 == Haunt ..50 == Atos cripple ..50 == Atos cripple 375 == Refresher ------- + 1035 Manapool needed (1095 mana available). + Show Spoiler [devilisk screengrab] +In a general game i think AC+Abyssal to get 6-slotted would fit nicely. Most semi pro's don’t like it that much iirc, but whatever. They don't like it bc your illusions deal like no dmg. Simply daggering your target is more than sufficient. Spend that money on something else that benefits your illusions when you haunt. Yes, most go for expensive stat-items on a hero which haunt-illusions only do 30% damage. When spectre hits for 100 damage, illusions only do 30 damage. Desolate only counts if a hero is alone so that seems less reliable around mid/lategame. It takes a long time before spectre becomes really scary this way. Don’t get me wrong, I like that pro-build, but it takes me alot longer to farm all those items and become scary (my individual skill is alot lower). I choose to invest in enough EHP so that the illusions can last two full duration haunts at an early timing and let the radiance and maybe desolate go to work, twice. I have tried to build spectre with manta refresher radiance + other items, but then spectre still does not have enough manapool to use everything twice. Besides that, the surprise refresher timing will be later if you choose to go a more expensive route. For me, it's a trade off, gaining an extra timing earlier with a 3k gold investment. Gold-efficiency wise its not that great, timingwise it is very nice. I try to create an acceptable Return of Investment or win the game with the cheap triple-item-combo. E: Granting your team 12 second 17% evasion instead of only 6 seconds is nice too. But it's hard for me to quantify the impact of that. Against a drow- or minusarmour strategy it should prove usefull. Show nested quote +On July 08 2015 09:27 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I really don't understand the dual tactics of trying to not use your spells to farm, and then building high-int items for the purpose of being able to blow your mana on the field to avoid using the fountain for 100 gold. You made me laugh with the above sentence As i see it, once you have that 15.5k gold triple-item combo, the threat of the double haunt must be present at all times. Before that timing, you can use the mana anyway you find appropriate. All your other arguments are debatable from my point of view. Like, if my early refresher baits a couple of 10 second bkb's charges, i probably won the game just by favouring an earlier refresher build. The lower the bkb charges get, the more impactfull rod of atos becomes (besides al the stats). Just for fun: maybe we should calculate the difference in damage output & input in a 5v5 teamfight between my 15.5k and your 15.5k or 20k gold-timing (without a refresher), that could provide some insight (for me atleast). As a melee hero i find it hard to actually initiate some rightclicks, atos' 1200 ranged instant cripple solves that problem to some degree. I think almost all itembuilds have merit, i just like mine to be more impactfull earlier.
i mean if you're going radiance into atos of course it will take you longer to farm because you're not picking up a yasha which allows you to do more damage and move faster between creeps.
im glad you did the math because 500 dmg is a pretty significant deal especially when you didnt take into account desolate (which has only a 325 radius..that's pretty small!)
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On July 08 2015 23:59 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2015 17:53 govie wrote:On July 08 2015 11:18 BluemoonSC wrote:On July 08 2015 07:08 govie wrote:Poor mans dota.... I still believe that if you aim for a radiance+refresher-build, an atos synergizes very well in pubs (no matter how you get to the desired items below, boots which one you prefer). Having every skill and item twice in an early fight and having enough manapool to execute that combo perfectly is just really satisfying (and its pretty noob friendly). 130 == Spectral dagger 130 == Spectral dagger 150 == Haunt 150 == Haunt ..50 == Atos cripple ..50 == Atos cripple 375 == Refresher ------- + 1035 Manapool needed (1095 mana available). + Show Spoiler [devilisk screengrab] +In a general game i think AC+Abyssal to get 6-slotted would fit nicely. Most semi pro's don’t like it that much iirc, but whatever. They don't like it bc your illusions deal like no dmg. Simply daggering your target is more than sufficient. Spend that money on something else that benefits your illusions when you haunt. Yes, most go for expensive stat-items on a hero which haunt-illusions only do 30% damage. When spectre hits for 100 damage, illusions only do 30 damage. Desolate only counts if a hero is alone so that seems less reliable around mid/lategame. It takes a long time before spectre becomes really scary this way. Don’t get me wrong, I like that pro-build, but it takes me alot longer to farm all those items and become scary (my individual skill is alot lower). I choose to invest in enough EHP so that the illusions can last two full duration haunts at an early timing and let the radiance and maybe desolate go to work, twice. I have tried to build spectre with manta refresher radiance + other items, but then spectre still does not have enough manapool to use everything twice. Besides that, the surprise refresher timing will be later if you choose to go a more expensive route. For me, it's a trade off, gaining an extra timing earlier with a 3k gold investment. Gold-efficiency wise its not that great, timingwise it is very nice. I try to create an acceptable Return of Investment or win the game with the cheap triple-item-combo. E: Granting your team 12 second 17% evasion instead of only 6 seconds is nice too. But it's hard for me to quantify the impact of that. Against a drow- or minusarmour strategy it should prove usefull. On July 08 2015 09:27 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I really don't understand the dual tactics of trying to not use your spells to farm, and then building high-int items for the purpose of being able to blow your mana on the field to avoid using the fountain for 100 gold. You made me laugh with the above sentence As i see it, once you have that 15.5k gold triple-item combo, the threat of the double haunt must be present at all times. Before that timing, you can use the mana anyway you find appropriate. All your other arguments are debatable from my point of view. Like, if my early refresher baits a couple of 10 second bkb's charges, i probably won the game just by favouring an earlier refresher build. The lower the bkb charges get, the more impactfull rod of atos becomes (besides al the stats). Just for fun: maybe we should calculate the difference in damage output & input in a 5v5 teamfight between my 15.5k and your 15.5k or 20k gold-timing (without a refresher), that could provide some insight (for me atleast). As a melee hero i find it hard to actually initiate some rightclicks, atos' 1200 ranged instant cripple solves that problem to some degree. I think almost all itembuilds have merit, i just like mine to be more impactfull earlier. i mean if you're going radiance into atos of course it will take you longer to farm because you're not picking up a yasha which allows you to do more damage and move faster between creeps. im glad you did the math because 500 dmg is a pretty significant deal especially when you didnt take into account desolate (which has only a 325 radius..that's pretty small!)
I didn’t count the damage dealt by illusions, desolate or spectre during the second haunt, because we don’t know how many hero's will be alive after the first haunt. That is harder to calculate, so, I left anything out that would favour my itembuild. If my calculations are correct then I assume that the damage dealt is pretty similar in theory, but varies more from fight to fight. After doing these calculations, i conclude that the choice between both itembuilds is more about the skills and actives and less about the damage. Lategame you will have alot of similar items anyway if not exactly the same. The refresher-build is more forgiving and lets you use haunt about 10 more times in an average game when it counts, midgame into lategame. The statbuilds seem more gold and damage efficient, but you have to be a bit more careful when you haunt during the mid/late game (playing spectre without a haunt in a teamfight isn’t pleasant).
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On July 08 2015 22:26 Gowerly wrote:
Also remember that if the heroes are close enough to not get multiple radiances on them, the proportional difference of the diffusal build will increase (it'll still be 540, but it'll be from a lower base line).
You mean desolates?
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No I mean diffusals.
Illusions still proc the mana burn (assuming there is mana to burn), but the radiances don't overlap.
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United States2186 Posts
This is an example of trying to be original just to be original except you pay a heavy price in efficacy, so in the end its just silly. I say this specifically against the Atos, which is frankly atrocious in so many ways and isn't worthy to being talked about. Radi -> Manta -> Diffusal also isn't a build unless you're already so far ahead it doesn't matter in which case who cares. In a normal, undecided game you need the heart as item #3 since Spectre really needs to stay durable in fights and outlast their bkbs.
Manta second seems pretty set in stone these days as Spectre ends up in a lot of 1v1 situations in fights, which is where manta really shines. Tripling your desolate damage on a key hero or two is not trivial.
Refresher is situational but definitely can be good against squishier heroes who are reliant on blinks or a team heavily reliant on global silence. A fast refresher after radi yasha or manta also can really bury them if you're ahead. You definitely don't need to diffusal for it either - manta and heart are still a much higher priority. Max mana is surprisingly not that big of a problem with refresher because in most situations you will be able to tp home after your first haunt and then get the mana to refresh second haunt -> reality in -> manta.
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You don't like it, fine. Just don't make false statements about why I posted it or why I played the build. 
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Wouldn't Diffusal be more impactful for early fighting? And if you needed mana for RFO why wouldn't you just build a point booster which you can build into a Skadi later?
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On July 09 2015 04:01 govie wrote:You don't like it, fine. Just don't make false statements about why I posted it or why I played the build.
Govie, your whole reason for existence on these boards seems to be theorycrafting about inefficient builds in an attempt to be original.
It's not a false statement to anyone else.
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Compare the Atos to a Soul Booster. You trade the slow active and 100 gold for 100 HP and some sustain... and the ability to build into Octarine Core.
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Well Octarine Core is bad on Spec, too. Spellvamp off Radiance isn't worth it, it explicitly doesn't work with Dispersion, and the CDR doesn't do anything for you really.
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I know I said a lot of things, so maybe some of what I said was lost in wall of text, but there seem to be some misconceptions over what I purport.
I don't make diffusal on Spectre unless:
1. I'm fighting a Medusa or Wraith King, both of whose strengths are derived from mana (Mana Shield on Medusa, and Reincarnation on Wraith King). Might be there are some other heroes worth building diffusal for, but those are the big ones I can think of off the top of my head.
2. I cannot possibly afford Relic, and my team is on track for losing the game if I change nothing else. In these scenarios I will still try and save for Ultimate Orb to finish Manta first, but if my team is still getting destroyed after Manta and I for sure cannot save for Relic, I'll dump gold into Diffusal Blade components as is possible if a buy-back haunt probably won't salvage the game.
3. I got a 20 minute Radiance or earlier (after Yasha), my Manta came 4-5 minutes later, so I recognize I'm on track for 30 minute Refresher, purchase that, and only then will I build Diffusal to coincide with my Refresher coming off cooldown after the first double ult for the purpose of making the second double ult as strong as possible.
I don't recommend ever delaying Manta for Diffusal, except in dire scenarios that involve the factors of both 1. and 2. mentioned above.
Normally Heart or Skadi follows Manta (which follows Radiance). Rarely you might build BKB here instead vs just stupid amounts of control/magic damage.
Govie your math looks very wrong. I don't know how you think refresher atos provides comparable auto-attack dps to manta diffusal.
Flat DPS formula on auto attacks is: (base hero damage range + agl + increased-damage + on-hit effects) / ((1 + IAS/100) / BAT (where BAT = 1.7)). This is before reductions from armour. Remember that Desolate is pure damage and isn't reduced by armour or magic resistance. Radiance burn is reduced by magic resistance. Manaburn damage to hp is reduced by armour.
You're simplifying too many factors and trying to compare numbers from different reference frames-- it's not intellectually sound.
I'm not redoing your math right now, but if you want to win the argument via data you should use more faithful calculations and compare both average but ideal scenarios as well as average but unideal scenarios for your calculations. I.e. pick some armour value you think reasonable for targets, pick a level for Spectre to be and remember her agl growth, use 25% magic resistance, and assume desolate hits apply for an ideal scenario. Then redo the math where desolate doesn't hit. Then redo the math involving magic immunity (which blocks desolate, manaburn, and radiance burn). I am absolutely ok with omitting dispersion damage, because that's too complicated.
I'm not going to argue the merits of Refresher: I only use it with the build I described above with the timing I described above. I think it's a mistake to build the item in any worse scenarios, and even sometimes a mistake to build it even in those conditions. I'm not sure if Dead9 is disagreeing with me or not, but his last post seemed to be based on a misunderstanding of the build I purport anyway. I don't claim to know the best item to follow Refresher: remember that I already have Manta before I build Refresher, and that my point in building diffusal after was just to make the double-ult stronger by making the item that most obviously effects illusions in the game. Maybe Heart/Skadi is better, I dunno, I don't encounter scenarios I feel comfortable making Refresher in often enough to have experimented with the options. Intuition tells me that if you're snowballing into Refresher that adding mana burn for the duration of your double ult and having an improved capacity to slow down people attempting to run home instead of TP is the best option however.
I've yet to see an explanation for why Atos has any merit. Not blowing TP before a fight to ensure a fountain trip (if you cannot count on your team to give you any mana for some reason) seems a much cheaper method of ensuring you can use a double-ult if you've built refresher. I mentioned that in terms of the utility the diffusal blade has higher synergy with Spectre's kit and comparable utility, but as explained in this post I'm not arguing in favour of building diffusal in most scenarios. For the gold I would rather have an item that actually fits the hero and scenario.
TL;DR I generally advocate:
Quelling, Poor Man's Shield, Phase/Treads, Ring of Aquila, Yasha (14-16 minutes usually), Radiance (22-24 minutes usually), Manta Style, Heart/Skadi, Butterfly, Abyssal Blade
or with sick snowball can get behind:
Quelling, Poor Man's Shield, Phase/Treads, Ring of Aquila, Yasha, Radiance (20 or fewer minutes), Manta Style (24-26 minutes), Refresher (30 minutes), Diffusal Blade, Butterfly/Skadi/Heart
where x/y/z are in descending order of preference
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Atos so you have enough mana for refresh ult? Why not work towards skadi instead.
Anyway atos is an item that is not terrible on any hero. So its not the worst thing to have, especially if you already have some core items.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
atos sounds retarded, waste of money and a slot. theres no way spectre needs the 30 int from it
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I can't see why you would get atos over diffusal. The active slow from both is about the same, diffu gives SOME int (although not 30) and the passive is pretty good.
Before radi buff I always wanted diffusal over radiance, but now I think radiance gives much better utility as pressing R now gives everyone engaged in a fight on your team more survivability.
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On July 09 2015 15:13 DucK- wrote:
Atos so you have enough mana for refresh ult? Why not work towards skadi instead.
Anyway atos is an item that is not terrible on any hero. So its not the worst thing to have, especially if you already have some core items.
You don't even need Atos or Skadi for that, if you went for 3-4 points in stats around level 14-15 while having Refresher + Radiance, you will have mana for double ulti.
Wish more people tried out Refresher rush build to see how awesome it is. It is not a build for every game as it loses a lot of value when enemy team has a lot of tanks or are grouped together and are pushing a lot with Mek and some heroes like WD or Necrophos.
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On July 09 2015 19:33 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 15:13 DucK- wrote:
Atos so you have enough mana for refresh ult? Why not work towards skadi instead.
Anyway atos is an item that is not terrible on any hero. So its not the worst thing to have, especially if you already have some core items. You don't even need Atos or Skadi for that, if you went for 3-4 points in stats around level 14-15 while having Refresher + Radiance, you will have mana for double ulti. Wish more people tried out Refresher rush build to see how awesome it is. It is not a build for every game as it loses a lot of value when enemy team has a lot of tanks or are grouped together and are pushing a lot with Mek and some heroes like WD or Necrophos.
I was questioning his insistence on getting atos.
And that's my build  and yea I figured out the last part the hard way. Single handily loss the game against a lesh pugna 5man push lineup. If I just tanked up after timely radiance, they wouldn't have stood a chance. Instead they run and then mek/urn whenever I double haunt, and I can't fight after because nukes blow me up.
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On July 09 2015 04:01 govie wrote:You don't like it, fine. Just don't make false statements about why I posted it or why I played the build.
I think he said you did it to look original because the other option is way more offensive.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On July 09 2015 20:15 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 19:33 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 09 2015 15:13 DucK- wrote:
Atos so you have enough mana for refresh ult? Why not work towards skadi instead.
Anyway atos is an item that is not terrible on any hero. So its not the worst thing to have, especially if you already have some core items. You don't even need Atos or Skadi for that, if you went for 3-4 points in stats around level 14-15 while having Refresher + Radiance, you will have mana for double ulti. Wish more people tried out Refresher rush build to see how awesome it is. It is not a build for every game as it loses a lot of value when enemy team has a lot of tanks or are grouped together and are pushing a lot with Mek and some heroes like WD or Necrophos. I was questioning his insistence on getting atos. And that's my build and yea I figured out the last part the hard way. Single handily loss the game against a lesh pugna 5man push lineup. If I just tanked up after timely radiance, they wouldn't have stood a chance. Instead they run and then mek/urn whenever I double haunt, and I can't fight after because nukes blow me up.
there are some instances where u will want that bkb on spectre
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Yeah, depends on how quickly you can get heart and how soon you have to or want to fight. Against heavy magic damage teams you want heart over skadi since the raw hp is more important than the armour and slow the rest of skadi provides. It's nice to start a fight, disengage and heart-heal, then reengage, with ult or otherwise. But if you're sitting on 3900 gold and haven't bought a reaver yet and a carry leshrac or something is about to siege your t3, grabbing that bkb instead is for sure worth-while.
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So I've been tooling around lately with Spectre, playing a lot of games with Nightmarjoo's Yasha build, and I think there's a good discussion to be had about the different 'combat' builds. For instance, if you already know you want to commit to a lot of early game fights, what is the downside of going straight to Vanguard? It isn't expensive and it lets you jungle when you can't find lane farm.
PMS + Aquila + Phase and Yasha is solid, but I feel like it isn't enough to tip the scales in fights if your team is already behind. If you don't get a couple of haunt kills and the lane farm isn't going well I struggle to get out of the midgame with a good timing on my next big item, especially when my team mates aren't coordinated enough to fight around the haunt cool down.
Vanguard makes you very threatening to the enemy supports and you can opt to go for a diffusal if you don't recover enough to get a timely radiance.
I think in a perfect world you rush the Radiance as fast as possible (Duck's brown boots, RoH, QB build). But you need A LOT of access to farm in order to ensure a strong Radiance timing, and if you die even once it sets you behind SO much.
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Vg does not scale well. Doesn't increase your farm rate. Also Spectre doesn't need that damage block that badly. She can handle right click damage to a point. What she really need is raw life. If someday Icefrog makes VG can be disassemble then maybe it can be worthwhile (Vit booster for HoT, Ring for refresher)
Even then VG put Spectre on a weird position. You want to fight with your VG but your downtime (Haunt on cd) your farm speed gets slower. Generally when i cannot rush radiance i go for PT (170hp is really nice instead of going full VG)>OoV>Aquila>Yasha. But after that i rely on my team and go for radi. (You will always want to carry a radi even at 60 min mark.)
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United States47024 Posts
VG has 2 real benefits. First, it makes you immovable in lane so when you're pushing/farming you don't get forced out of lane by a stronger 1v1 hero that comes to your lane (you won't force them off, but VG more or less lets you farm off and Spectre is pretty much always ok with that). Second, it lets you frontline in teamcomps where the other heroes on your team are mostly backline heroes--Invoker, Lina, AA, etc.
You don't get Vanguard to be a damage threat. You get Vanguard to set up the rest of your team to be damage threats if the teamcomp is right for it. If you need to do damage yourself, that's where Aquila/Drums/Yasha-based builds come into play.
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On July 14 2015 05:56 Sceptre wrote:
So I've been tooling around lately with Spectre, playing a lot of games with Nightmarjoo's Yasha build, and I think there's a good discussion to be had about the different 'combat' builds. For instance, if you already know you want to commit to a lot of early game fights, what is the downside of going straight to Vanguard? It isn't expensive and it lets you jungle when you can't find lane farm.
PMS + Aquila + Phase and Yasha is solid, but I feel like it isn't enough to tip the scales in fights if your team is already behind. If you don't get a couple of haunt kills and the lane farm isn't going well I struggle to get out of the midgame with a good timing on my next big item, especially when my team mates aren't coordinated enough to fight around the haunt cool down.
Vanguard makes you very threatening to the enemy supports and you can opt to go for a diffusal if you don't recover enough to get a timely radiance.
I think in a perfect world you rush the Radiance as fast as possible (Duck's brown boots, RoH, QB build). But you need A LOT of access to farm in order to ensure a strong Radiance timing, and if you die even once it sets you behind SO much.
I find Yasha with the timing and progression I've described to be highly effective in most scenarios, albeit for different reasons.
When you're already farming well and/or getting a lot of kills the Yasha is a nice snowball item-- it increases your farm rate allowing you to capitalize on the space you or your team has made, it makes your ult stronger by directly buffing your haunt illusions 3 different ways, it helps you finish kills by 1. letting you simply catch the enemy and kill them and 2. by giving you the confidence to chase otherwise sketchy kills because you have the movement speed and armour to get out of more bullshit, and it helps you farm and/or more around with a greater level of impunity due to the improved survivability the ms and armour confer.
When you're in a neutral position the Yasha helps you in all of the ways above, but with a stress on improved farming capacity to get more gold between ults. Trying to save gold at this point requires you to be able to survive the improved levels, damage, and most importantly the increased drive out of frustration to hunt you down of the enemy with laning phase equipment. It's possible, but requires you to play safer, which results in kill opportunities being lost, and your team being required to pick up more slack (which they may not be able to do, given that we're in a neutral scenario).
When you and/or your team are getting fucked down the Yasha helps you in all of the ways above, but with a stress on increased survivability and adaptation. Spectre naturally plays somewhat scrappily as she phases through the world and hops around the map. The Yasha helps her do that more, which can easily be the difference between life and death. The difference between Vanguard and Yasha in this point (since we're not even considering trying to save for Relic in this scenario) is being behind with a Yasha means you're 3k from an item that might be able to help you out (Manta), but being behind with a Vanguard means you're 5k from a useful item. There are just too few scenarios where a Diffusal first major item is going to be the come-back mechanism, starting from behind or otherwise. Even if Vanguard Diffusal is somehow an appropriate progression in this scenario you're left 5k behind Manta, and now are strongly encouraged to give up the Radiance altogether (whereas going Manta first still transitions fine going back for the Radiance).
There are only a few scenarios where I build Vanguard at all, and thus so far I've never felt compelled to build it before the Yasha. Those scenarios are always specific to both the enemy composition and their rate of snowball. So if the enemy has for example a Storm Spirit getting fed out of his goddamn mind who went Orchid first and can literally just zip on you anytime he wants and kill you during the silence of Orchid or the Orchid-active burst immediately following the silence-- yeah, you're probably going to want a Vanguard. I've felt similarly about a snowballing Tinker before, or maybe a Bounty Hunter who somehow got every single Track kill in the world, or a Slark doing terrible terrible Slark things to your team, etc. In all of these the Vanguard alone isn't even necessarily the thing that's keeping you alive, but the Vanguard following a Yasha that gives you a wonderful mix of movement speed, armour, health, damage block, and health regen. Going Vanguard first might work in all of these scenarios, but makes it harder to turn things around or find opportunities to catch up. The Vanguard is a form of surrender-- telling the other team you're just trying to stay alive for the purpose of stalling the game, that you're probably only gaining passive gold, with the alternative being not even staying alive to collect that welfare. You can have scenarios where it feels like you might need the Vanguard, but you pick up the Yasha first and the game goes surprisingly well after that leading to a swift Manta or Relic after. You're not going to have a scenario where you went Vanguard first and suddenly found yourself actually getting kills or winning fights. And as Yango said, it doesn't improve your farm rate, it just lets you more safely sustain a low rate of farm (such as actually being able to leave highground for a single wave before running back up). Lastly, the Vanguard first puts you in a scenario where your ult is no more useful now than it was during the laning phase. This sucks because your ult is ultimately your biggest gold-reaping tool, your biggest comeback mechanism.
No, Vanguard doesn't make you threatening, even to supports. It makes you a big cute teddy bear no one can bear to harm.
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Thanks for the incredibly detailed response. I was getting hung up on the fact that Yasha only gives you an extra 16 damage, but it's easy to see how the attack and movement speed bonuses are great for Spectre.
I'm curious, what is your argument for taking the Ring of Aquila? If you are TP'ing home before most fights, the mana regen seems superfluous. While dagger can be a great farming tool, it is sufficiently mana-expensive that you can't spam it and the aquila seems like it would only let you cast an extra 3-4 daggers in the midgame.
I usually buy it because stats are nice (and the extra bit of push), but games where I don't pick it up seem to go alright.
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On July 15 2015 03:53 Sceptre wrote:
Thanks for the incredibly detailed response. I was getting hung up on the fact that Yasha only gives you an extra 16 damage, but it's easy to see how the attack and movement speed bonuses are great for Spectre.
I'm curious, what is your argument for taking the Ring of Aquila? If you are TP'ing home before most fights, the mana regen seems superfluous. While dagger can be a great farming tool, it is sufficiently mana-expensive that you can't spam it and the aquila seems like it would only let you cast an extra 3-4 daggers in the midgame.
I usually buy it because stats are nice (and the extra bit of push), but games where I don't pick it up seem to go alright.
It's nice early stats, cost efficient. If you are going mostly naked radiance rush, you want some item to help you tank up. Aquilla if you want to afk farm more with quelling blade and treads, urn if you want to fight more.
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To be honest I never actually questioned the aquila myself. I like the armour, attack speed, and damage it provides; the mana regen is incidental. However it could be that just buying the Yasha 1k faster is superior for sure; I'll try it out and tell you how it feels.
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Aquila is 1k. Ask yourself if you really need that item. Do you really need the stats or mana regen, especially when your nuke has very mediocre damage that you won't be using it to farm.
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On July 15 2015 12:04 DucK- wrote:
Aquila is 1k. Ask yourself if you really need that item. Do you really need the stats or mana regen, especially when your nuke has very mediocre damage that you won't be using it to farm.
I dagger to farm a lot before Radiance once I've maxed it, depending on my proximity to ult coming off cd. Hell, I'll use it after radiance to get to my next creep wave or camp even sooner. The damage is not at all negligible in jungle if you hit the camp you're working on in addition to the next camp simultaneously, especially if one or both camps are stacked. Just never use it on a single unstacked camp unless you need to path through it after finishing it, such as the far right medium camp on radiant if you want to snag a rune after you kill the camp (ideally near the neutral respawn time).
And that 1k gives you 18 damage, 9 attack speed, 3 + 9/7 armour, 57 hp, and 0.65 mana regen/s. When you can farm lane the armour aura buff helps passively push the lane away giving you vision of that lane which lets you jump into jungle more safely.
It's actually a pretty sick item. Now it still may be that it's worth skipping it, but I can't say right now whether that's most of the time or infrequently or scenario-specific.
I've gotten a chance to try it once so far, but the game didn't really count because they had a Medusa so I went diffusal after yasha which completely changed the game's tempo and my farm rate. They also had a Silencer so I would have spent a lot of time without mana no matter what, so it was just impossible to accurately judge how skipping aquila felt. I'll keep trying it and see if I can identify some trends.
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Would you mind linking to your dotabuff? I would love to watch a few of your replays, in particular I'm interested to see how you use your dagger while farming. Curious about item timings as well.
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http://www.dotabuff.com/players/22924819
I make no promises as to the actual overall quality of my games. Could be for sure that whatever I'm doing doesn't work at higher level, I dunno. I just know it works consistently through low 4k. A lot of my games nowadays are with friends who are worse than me, but my style of spectre worked just as well as when I did solo queue.
The most recent two Spectre games on there aren't typical of most of my games. I think the rest are too old to still have public replays unfortunately.
The most recent one I was getting free-farm in lane and tried to see how fast a naked relic I could build, and while I did get the radiance sooner than normal the timing wasn't to my satisfaction and further supported my normal build. The enemy Clinkz got pretty big early while I was afk lane farming, and I lazily fed him a couple times later since I knew we couldn't lose since they didn't give Naga farm priority. I never normally make blademail on Spectre, but it was an attempt to counter the glass cannon Clinkz and PA. It worked on PA a few times, but Clinkz ended up grabbing a well-timed BKB and all I did was trade feeds for bkb charges after I bought it.
The second to most recent game was me trying the no-aquila build, but with diffusal manta progression because they had a Medusa. There was a clear skill discrepancy between the two teams so I was never really on the backfoot farming terrifiedly in the jungle hoping I can clear a wave before ulting the way spectre games usually feel, so I don't think I used dagger too much in the jungle as result.
You're welcome to look through any replays I do have up though; and let me know if you can find some consistent mistakes or trends or bad habits I can work on. I can answer any questions you have regarding anything too.
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I was pretty surprised how much farm you got against that Centaur+CM lane in that replay from 8 days ago. I've been trying to pick Spectre more in ranked games, but if the support in my duo-lane isn't a strong laner the early game can be a disaster.
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![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/j0yW2/c472b4228c.png)
This is my Spectre stats in this patch. This hero is really powerful, easy to stomp people with since Radiance is so good now, All you need is good drafting and a good eye to catch things happening on the map. My typical build is Treads+MoM+Yasha into Radiance, it has insane DPS against heroes when I Haunt someone, but even if there are few openings for kills I can still disappear from the map and rice in jungle. My Radiance will complete somewhere between 25-28 minutes. If I feel MoM is unsafe in a game I leave the Morbid Mask unupgraded. Of course I can't expect to get that kind of farm every game, but that's where drafting plays a key role. I pick Spectre if the other team has low magic damage threat and I can expect the team to provide me support against a solo offlaner.
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Spectre has been my go-to pub-stomp hero for a long time now. I'm willing to pick her in all drafts. I always play her safelane, but honestly the way I have to play her sometimes suggests she could run mid or offlane too. As long as you can get levels you're fine. I've had games where I'm sitting on boots, quelling blade, poor man's shield at 10 minutes, and the end-game stats makes it look like the game was easy. You really don't need farm on her early. You need to get your ult and you need to use it well. Shit support? No problem. Terrible aggro lane? No problem-- they can't kill you if you watch their movements and use dagger appropriately in conjunction with maintaining good positioning.
However even in the worst lanes you can usually get some farm by stacking and pulling, controlling creep aggro correctly, or even by just using dagger (if they cannot possibly kill you during the cd/mana defecit and if you can get at least 2 lasthits simultaneously with one dagger).
The scariest thing is really strong ganking heroes who can kill you despite dagger phasing through terrain, and even then only if your team is completely incapable of keeping them busy (while you fight every ult cd). That's tough, because then you have to push with team which means you probably aren't getting farm, you're splitting xp too hard, and you aren't a surprise factor in fights anymore. However if your team can take good engagements and you play well during fights to pick off back-line heroes and slow targets to help your team nab them you can recover.
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So spectre has a 57.45% winrate on dotabuff right now (last month), 4th behind omni/abba/ursa. Any idea why?
I've played her a couple times in pubs and it'll always be some awful dual lane vs dual lane situation, and some axe/undying offlane or something will just shit on my face. How the hell is this hero doing so well right now in pubs? It's so hard to get a team coordinated around it as well.
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On September 06 2015 10:13 Aerisky wrote:
So spectre has a 57.45% winrate on dotabuff right now (last month), 4th behind omni/abba/ursa. Any idea why?
I've played her a couple times in pubs and it'll always be some awful dual lane vs dual lane situation, and some axe/undying offlane or something will just shit on my face. How the hell is this hero doing so well right now in pubs? It's so hard to get a team coordinated around it as well.
People tend to not finish games giving you time to catch up? Honestly though, if you get even decent support this hero is so hard for supports to fight against. You literally kill the back line with your ult while fighting everyone else. She's really strong, just gotta get your team to not be complete morons about it.
They can be stupid, like most are, but not too stupid.
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yea i dunno you can get shat on in lane and get like a 16 minute vanguard and a 27 minute radiance or something awful and still win, lotta pub games just go late and after radiance it feels easy to farm up all your other slots at a steady pace and just win
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On September 06 2015 10:50 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
yea i dunno you can get shat on in lane and get like a 16 minute vanguard and a 27 minute radiance or something awful and still win, lotta pub games just go late and after radiance it feels easy to farm up all your other slots at a steady pace and just win
Hao got a 30 minute radiance on spectre at TI and he went from useless to eventually a farmed beast. Sure his supports were a huge factor in making him space, but it shows even a late radiance is good on her.
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I don't quite understand the power spike too when spectre gets his radiance. Suddenly so strong despite it being late :O
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i think hp having extra value due to dispersion has something to do with it, the value vit booster you generally get after radiance (if you didn't go vanguard before) makes you feel pretty unkillable, and after radiance you can reliably kill supports and threaten carries while usually not being at risk of dying because you saw where everyone was when you used haunt and your dagger is like a free getaway from anything but a targeted gank with chainstuns
On September 06 2015 13:07 the bear jew wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2015 10:50 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
yea i dunno you can get shat on in lane and get like a 16 minute vanguard and a 27 minute radiance or something awful and still win, lotta pub games just go late and after radiance it feels easy to farm up all your other slots at a steady pace and just win Hao got a 30 minute radiance on spectre at TI and he went from useless to eventually a farmed beast. Sure his supports were a huge factor in making him space, but it shows even a late radiance is good on her.
not sure about that game though, cloud 9 kind of mentally gave up after that one bad fight where rubick got supernova and they never actually forced anything again
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I don't know why pubs are suddenly able to win more on her than before, but the strength of Spectre Radiance is obvious.
Unlike all other heroes in the game, when Spectre finishes Radiance, she is almost guaranteed to kill any one hero on the map every two minutes. Using her ult with Radiance guarantees either a kill or freedom of movement (to take a tower or kill Roshan, etc). Assuming she has level 2 ult and level 4 Dagger, Spectre can Radiance burn someone for 18 seconds by jumping on them and using Dagger. The movement speed differential means unless they TP out, they will take burn damage for 18 seconds (6 seconds of ult, 12 seconds of Dagger slow).
After 25% magic reduction that's 675 damage from Radiance, 150 damage from Dagger, and inevitably at least a couple 65 pure damage Desolate procs unless the enemy team are hugging each other. Call it 3 Desolate procs, not even accounting for auto attack physical damage (maybe your target is a PA who dodged all 3 attacks-- the Desolate lands anyway), and you're up to a minimum of 1020 damage.
Running the build I've described in the past in this thread, which doesn't even try and rush out Radiance ASAP, I can for sure have Radiance by 24 minutes in ~90% of games in pubs. It's quite conceivable that there is at least one hero on the enemy team 24 minutes in who doesn't have more than 1000 hp. Even if an enemy has 2000 hp, it's quite conceivable that Spectre herself or with the help of her teammates can do the other half before the enemy can move to the Reality target, barring the target TPing out first. And thanks to the global vision of the enemy Spectre's team always knows whether or not they can kill the target.
So barring exceptionally strong escape spells (or a blink dagger-- it doesn't go on until the first haunt's desolate proc) the enemy only has a few options: instant TP by the Reality target can work, but they might just die to Desolate procs anyway. Once Spectre finishes Manta probably only their 1 and 2 farm priority heroes are actually surviving the TP channel duration.
They can try and blow up the Haunt before Reality, but assuming Spectre herself has at least 1000 hp at this point, there are few heroes in the game who can very rapidly do 500 burst damage, so that probably won't work.
They can cluster with teammates to prevent Desolate procs, but then the damage done by Haunt is the knowledge of the exact position of the entire enemy team-- Spectre's team knows they can take an objective if they're in position or can move to outmaneuver the enemy team. Anyone who isn't in the cluster can easily get picked off, and if a pick-off is impossible the complete information on the enemy's disposition is a very powerful tool as is.
The best way to ensure survival is to activate a BKB, but 1. that requires having built one, which isn't possible or viable depending on the enemy's hero and role, 2. trades a BKB charge for a Haunt that still gave her team complete information on the enemy, 3. if they're alone and TP'd it blows a TP scroll and cd unless they have bots, and likely puts them in a non-ideal position where they can't accomplish anything, 4. even a 10s BKB charge without a TP isn't a guaranteed survival if Spectre doesn't mind using Reality after 6s and just waiting 4s to use Dagger to catch up and do horrible things to the target, and lastly 5. just because they used BKB doesn't mean the rest of their team is good, since she can just Reality somewhere else if she already picked a target to Reality on at all.
Furthermore, because Haunt gives you perfect information Spectre is never using Reality on a target she doesn't already know is a guaranteed pick-off, whether it requires additional help or not to secure.
Next, because of Dagger terrain-phase, Dagger movement speed increase, and innate increased EHP from Dispersion, Spectre can maintain dps from all sources on heroes more reliably and for a longer duration than any other hero, so all items have a disproportionate increase in her ability to kill the enemy. Being able to Radiance burn longer means she maintains inducing miss-chance on the enemy for longer, which decreases their capacity to hurt the rest of Spectre's team as well.
Also having Haunt in the first place means Spectre can more safely split push or afk-farm away from her team over any other hero in the game, so she gets more out of Radiance as a farming tool than any other hero in the game as well.
Lastly, even in scenarios where Spectre's Radiance is very late and her team is crumbling, it can be difficult to actually break highground against a farmless Spectre since she's durable, can slow multiple enemy heroes simultaneously, can put blink daggers on cd from a long distance, and can provide that perfect information making clutch plays and outmaneuvers easier to execute to comeback with, making it very likely Spectre will inevitably finish the Radiance.
Even when badly behind, if she can get that Radiance, because it is so disproportionately strong on her it's extremely difficult to actually end the game regardless of the size of her enemy's lead. And the longer the game goes on the stronger Spectre gets, forever. All items that provide hp and attack speed have a disproportionate increase in her capacity to survive and deal damage because of the strength of Desolate and Dispersion. The former is the single greatest on-hit damage buff in the game, stronger than Manaburn, more average damage than Minibash, Greater Bash, or even Time Lock inside Chrono, it doesn't go on cd, its effect isn't reduced by anything other than magical immunity, and it isn't a conditional percent chance hit. The latter doesn't go away when she's out of mana, and while Backtrack provides more protection, Dispersion is the only damage-reduction skill that also does damage, turning her hp into a weapon against non-magic-immune targets, a resource no other hero in the game has, except situationally Terrorblade.
Because of the nature of her illusion-based carry potential she also can gain more extra slots than any hero other than Sylla. She can swap out all of the following items before using Reality and joining the fight from fountain: Radiance, Diffusal Blade 2, Refresher Orb, Eye of Skadi, and if you're really fast, even Manta Style (if you want to replace the Manta slot you can ult, reality, manta once, tp, refresh, ult, and then replace the Manta, along with the other ult-only items). That means with level 3 ult, she can Skadi-ms/ias-slow, manaburn, and Radiance burn the entire enemy team, while her illusions hit the enemy with skadi, diffusal, refresher, radiance, and either manta+bots or bfly + daedalus/mkb for not quite 14 full seconds (the Skadi slow goes through BKB, but that's ~4 seconds of everything else even against a 10s BKB charge) before popping into the fight with Bots, Bfly, MKB/Silver Edge, Abyssal, Daedalus/Manta, Heart, and of course half a Moon Shard-- a devastating perfect 6slot if obtainable.
Because of her carry potential from passives and illusion-synergy, her suriveability, her gank capacity from level 6 on, her ability to safely farm/push away from her team, her ability to get complete knowledge over the enemy team every 2 minutes, her strength increasing so much from each successive item, and her ability to be above 6-slotted makes her just a stupid strong hero across the board. She has 3 main weaknesses: while she's hard to kill she's easy to zone or deny in weak lanes, she farms very slowly before Radiance, and magic immunity does greatly reduce her damage output before a 4th major item. Overcoming the first requires consistently making really good decisions or by having good supports, overcoming the second requires good global awareness and fight selection, and overcoming the third requires not losing the game before finishing a 4th item. If you can pull that off, you win. Now I will also say she is vulnerable to Silver Edge, but she can remove the Break with both Manta and Diffusal Blade, which she's comfortable building. I dunno what changed to allow the average pub to suddenly be able to turn these facts into wins, but Spectre's been in a really strong place for quite some time now.
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It is also very easy to play good dota when you have a Sepctre on your team. Most pub players just love suiciding in small squads without ensuring that their carry can/will join in the fight, but Spectre always has your back. Most supports also spend way too much time around their carry and completely ignores helping out other lanes. With Spectre this is not as much of a mistake as it is with other carries (though you still prefer getting solo exp and winning the other lanes if they contest you with a too strong lane).
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Lots of people playing carry don't know when to fight, when to farm. So lots of times you have fights when you would win but your carry is no where to be seen.
But this isn't the case with spectre, you can farm, jungle, split push to your heart's content and as long as your ult up, still be in every fight.
So you can maximize your farm efficiency and still be very active on map.
Once you get your basic items, get your radiance, you can easily just jungle, have your team either take free lane, or let them go as four and join in whenever. It's really strong.
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I attribute the high pub win rate to the fact that she requires very little know how to play. Am and pl for example are probably much stronger heroes but they require their player to be at least a little smart or know how the hero is played in general. That is to say, being a retarded pubber is not punished as hard as on most other heroes. Spectre is throw dagger, a click and press r, not even in any particular order. Even if u die your opponents will still take damage from dispersion and radiance , so it's near impossible to do -nothing- on the hero. A lot like how necro is a good pub hero despite being pretty bad hero overall
Spectre is also easy in the sense of balancing farm and fighting because you can just ult in when your team initiates/gets initiated on. U don't need a tp scroll for this, which eliminates another thing pubbers are chronically terrible at doing
This combined with the fact that most pubs will not do anything to shut down a farming hero after lanes end, and are generally bad at ending games, means spectre almost always get some items
Edit: also spectre has always had a high winrate because all of the above have been true for a long time. What's pushed her into the kind of crazy territory she's in right now is just power creep. She's had numerous buffs both directly and indirectly - comeback mechs, radiance buffs, haunt changes, post ti4 push strat nerfs, introductions of items like glimmer and solar crest - as well as nerfs to many of the previously strong pub heroes like wk, Zeus, and necro (through glimmer) pushing her up to 4th place. Another big thing about this patch in particular are the aoe gold changes because she is a hero that can be at many fights without issue
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What to do if my early laning is going trainwreck? I mean, when I can't farm shit safely and my team won't give a single fuck. I've seen people buying vanguard and blademail but that seems like a waste of gold, specially vanguard since it won't take me anywhere later. Should I just get some str and get a delayed rad or going for diffusal/yasha and try to legitimately ks using the ult?
I noticed that most of my shitty early are fixed with a well won teamfight with haunt, which literally turns the whole game in my favour instantly. If it doesn' happen I'm a burden until I finish get my stuff, and then proceed to stomp everything.
I'm at 3.2k MMR if it makes any difference.
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Seems quite powerful right now, the radiance buff really made spectre a lot better, before that you needed at least 30 minutes to get involved at all, but right now with the radiance giving you evasion, it helps against right clickers who would otherwise just crush you.
There are several build you can go on her, all depending on the situation, if they have a lot of early game, a lot of ganking type heroes, I suggest going Vanguard, I know the item is not good, but its good enough for spectre and for you to farm safely. Sometimes having only 700HP while farming on boots only for radiance is mentally restricting, you are so scared when someone is missing, because one spell and you are dead. So go for Vanguard if they have early game ganking heroes, otherwise just try and rush radiance.
I've seen people go for the S&Y build, I think its okay if you can get it really fast, like 14-16min S&Y is really good, but otherwise I'd avoid it, it makes you powerful mid game, but you lose out in the late game against other carries.
It also good to go for difusal first as well, sometimes you are just pressured too much, so rather than farming for 25 minutes for radiance, just go for diffusal, it gives you early fighting power, the damage is quite nice from it as well, that is 50 damage from the agility and feedback, plus you mana drain and have purge.
But yeah, it seems to be a very strong pick right now, big win rate in pubs. You really need to shut her down early to basically delay the radiance for as long as possible, if she gets radiance at 24-26 minutes, that is actually pretty late, so you have good chance of winning.
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United States2186 Posts
Any item gotten pre-radiance should be gotten with the expectation that it speeds up your radiance timing or barely delays it while preventing your team from collapsing (often the same thing). Whether this be urn, aquila, drums, yasha or vit booster really depends on the game/lineups. But your entire mentality should revolve around radiance or bust. This item has seriously gotten way too many buffs.
Really the only major skill on this hero outside of situations where you need multiple haunts is reading ganks and not dying at all costs. The opportunity cost on spectre's farm time pre-radiance is not very high since she farms so slowly anyway (unlike say AM where a minute spent not farming post bfury/vlads could have cost you 750-1000+ gold) and if you don't die farming opportunities will inevitably arise. What you have to avoid at all costs are chain death sequences - continuous combos of getting ganked and going too far in fights and dying pre-radi. It is okay to just haunt and not show up if a fight doesn't look good either, or just hide and wait for the enemy to reveal themselves instead of recklessly farming.
If you ever go sny on this hero where manta explodes your damage only counting desolate (let alone all the other bonuses) you should ban yourself from having any opinion on item builds. Mediocre convenience isn't a price you need to pay on spectre.
Spectre is super strong since rubberband is still very very powerful and after the nerfs people and even "good players" play super yolo when ahead and you can often engineer 5v(<5) fights when way behind. I almost think rubberband is stronger now than in 6.83 outside of bb since at least then everyone was aware of it and super scared to take risks, but now people act like they won't be brutally brutally punished for losing a single fight when ahead. Watching fight recaps is so scary; the xp/gold swing is far different than what so many previous versions might lead you to expect.
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yea when im at risk of dying a lot and the other team is quite early-game focused, i go vanguard when it's the item that will help me never die and sometimes vit booster or drums + cloak. every gank you can dagger tp away from is wasted time for the enemies and surviving is everything
I've seen people buying vanguard and blademail but that seems like a waste of gold, specially vanguard since it won't take me anywhere later.
the entire purpose of vanguard is to take you later (i.e. help you not lose gold to dying over and over again so you can get your expensive radi). the item sucking lategame isn't really of concern, especially because the types of games where you want it are the games where the enemy team has stacked earlygame (and thus presumably weaker lategame)
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S&Y on Spectre = "We're getting throned, I'm 400 gold short of a manta and my buyback is on cd."
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 08 2015 23:57 Buckyman wrote:
S&Y on Spectre = "We're getting throned, I'm 400 gold short of a manta and my buyback is on cd."
In which case you go full yolo and buy basher. Maim ain't stopping them from finishing off throne.
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United States47024 Posts
The reason to get S+Y is to zoom zoom around at 522 MS cuz its fun, not because the item is good for her.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 08 2015 23:48 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:yea when im at risk of dying a lot and the other team is quite early-game focused, i go vanguard when it's the item that will help me never die and sometimes vit booster or drums + cloak. every gank you can dagger tp away from is wasted time for the enemies and surviving is everything Show nested quote +I've seen people buying vanguard and blademail but that seems like a waste of gold, specially vanguard since it won't take me anywhere later. the entire purpose of vanguard is to take you later (i.e. help you not lose gold to dying over and over again so you can get your expensive radi). the item sucking lategame isn't really of concern, especially because the types of games where you want it are the games where the enemy team has stacked earlygame (and thus presumably weaker lategame)
the vanguard is also nice in that scenario bc it allows you to reasonably jungle with her if you can't lane due to crazy pressure from your enemies.
even that much of a sidetrack from radiance from buying the full vanguard (not just the value vit booster or ROH depending on the game) puts you in a position where you can safely jungle, sit on a non-dangerous amount of hp, and should a team fight break out you can haunt and KS to get back on track thanks to the comeback mechanics.
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210 Posts
Vanguard = Crimson Guard nice in team fights helps your teams survivability
BM is to avoid getting focused early on or else they maybe punished
but most likely you go to this build if you have no choice and can't farm well
its not every game that you can build a radiance or diffu on her easily
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United States47024 Posts
You don't want the CG upgrade. It's expensive, and CG would never be in your 6-slot so it's more money being wasted at the point where you'd sell your Vanguard.
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On September 09 2015 03:54 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 23:48 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:yea when im at risk of dying a lot and the other team is quite early-game focused, i go vanguard when it's the item that will help me never die and sometimes vit booster or drums + cloak. every gank you can dagger tp away from is wasted time for the enemies and surviving is everything I've seen people buying vanguard and blademail but that seems like a waste of gold, specially vanguard since it won't take me anywhere later. the entire purpose of vanguard is to take you later (i.e. help you not lose gold to dying over and over again so you can get your expensive radi). the item sucking lategame isn't really of concern, especially because the types of games where you want it are the games where the enemy team has stacked earlygame (and thus presumably weaker lategame) the vanguard is also nice in that scenario bc it allows you to reasonably jungle with her if you can't lane due to crazy pressure from your enemies. even that much of a sidetrack from radiance from buying the full vanguard (not just the value vit booster or ROH depending on the game) puts you in a position where you can safely jungle, sit on a non-dangerous amount of hp, and should a team fight break out you can haunt and KS to get back on track thanks to the comeback mechanics.
I think its a misconception that the vanguard helps you jungle with her. All it does is make it so jungling doesn't cost you HP, but its still slow as fuck. I'd only really get it if I think it will help me survive ganks or help in teamfights more. I used to think about the jungling aspect, but jungling on Spectre before Radiance is just so incredibly shitty. I think MoM/Aquila/phase or treads is probably better for jungling and arguably fighting. I think if you feel you can't show in a lane due to something like an SS then a MoM will let you farm the woods quicker than a vanguard while keeping you full HP.
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On September 11 2015 00:00 wxyLkz wrote:
Vanguard = Crimson Guard nice in team fights helps your teams survivability
BM is to avoid getting focused early on or else they maybe punished
but most likely you go to this build if you have no choice and can't farm well
its not every game that you can build a radiance or diffu on her easily
It's been said a million times in this thread. If you aren't going radiance on Spectre then you are probably playing the wrong hero, this is true with very very few exceptions, like maybe diffusal/manta vs dusa or an omni. It's still probably shitty though and you probably shouldn't of picked her.
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a misnomer is something that is wrongly or misleadingly named
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I've written more detailed explanations for everything earlier in this thread, but I'll rehash for the bumps:
1. Vanguard is not for staying high hp in the jungle, Vanguard is for when you literally can't leave tower (or even highground) without getting ganked by shit you consistently cannot survive: e.g. a farmed Tinker, Bounty Hunter, Riki, Storm Spirit, etc, heroes who have a combination of farm and skills that prevent your normal surviveability tools from keeping you alive such that you literally can't farm. Crimson Guard is just retarded.
2. Madness I guess is a preference thing, I won't say it's never good, but my experience on the hero is that a Yasha offers much more total function and value for its cost. Yasha improves your capacity to farm, helps you stay in better shape in the jungle (the armour in conjunction with dispersion and damage-block from a PMS does wonders, even in an absence of actual hp regen sources), helps you in fights both aggressively and defensively to a greater degree, and builds into an item you'll keep through your first 6slot. I find the Madness very underwhelming.
3. Your sustain largely comes from the fountain immediately prior to using Haunt, so there's little reason to waste money on any other forms, except in extreme scenarios where you can neither farm nor fight without a full Vanguard. Blademail does not work in this capacity. The only time I ever found a Blademail useful was when I skipped Yasha for a faster Radiance thinking I could get it really early due to having a lot of gold as the laning phase was ending, ended up getting just an average Radiance timing due to some combination of factors, and the enemy PA was already off the ground by that point and I wanted the reflect to dissuade her from preventing me from using my Radiance to pressure her remaining towers. It changed her mind once, and then she got a BKB by the next time we met. Blademail is specific to the enemy's heroes and to a scenario where you cannot individually ult and kill people at the same time that your team is either incapable or unwilling to start a fight for you, or that the fights they are engaging in are exclusively unfavourable for you even after purchasing a Radiance. If you can't afford Radiance, there's no point in having a Blademail, as whoever can kill you will still kill you, or at worse they will merely zone you from your farming area, which since it's delaying your Radiance is a favourable exchange.
4. Fixing Spectre's early game is impossible and isn't your goal: she will always suck in lane, she will always suck in jungle prior to Radiance. Your early goals are: maximize xp, get whatever farm you safely can, turn the gold you do get into cheap items (quelling, PMS, phase/treads, aquila (might be skippable), band of elvinkin (into yasha eventually), farm whatever you can once the laning phase is over from a lane or from the jungle, all the while watching the map and your team, keeping enough mana to TP, and TPing home to regen mana to Haunt and get free gold/xp from easy fights/kills. Those fights give you the farm for Yasha, the levels to max out Dagger, Desolate, and then to work on Dispersion, and eventually some combination of levels, farm, and the threat of your ult should give you the space on the map to afk-farm Radiance, and that's when the game really starts for Spectre.
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SoCal8910 Posts
ya i think a couple people misunderstood some posts (specifically mine) for the sake of wanting to sound like they had something to add to the discussion.
there was no "misnomer" involved. i quoted tuna because i wanted to list an additional benefit from being able to stay alive in the kind of scenario that tuna described. of course, vanguard doesn't help you to jungle quickly. it keeps you alive while you farm wherever you can find it bc the enemy team is up your ass. like tuna said, if they're that, early game focused and you can make it to the late game by finding farm/xp where you can and using haunt to KS and leech gold/xp, its worth upgrading your value vit booster/RoH.
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problems with this hero
she got nerfed during one of the 6.82x patches and never got rebuffed after gold/xp changes got fixed
also she is prone to being silver edged and thus rendered useless
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On September 11 2015 04:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
a misnomer is something that is wrongly or misleadingly named
Good talk dawg.
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On September 11 2015 06:39 BluemoonSC wrote:
ya i think a couple people misunderstood some posts (specifically mine) for the sake of wanting to sound like they had something to add to the discussion.
there was no "misnomer" involved. i quoted tuna because i wanted to list an additional benefit from being able to stay alive in the kind of scenario that tuna described. of course, vanguard doesn't help you to jungle quickly. it keeps you alive while you farm wherever you can find it bc the enemy team is up your ass. like tuna said, if they're that, early game focused and you can make it to the late game by finding farm/xp where you can and using haunt to KS and leech gold/xp, its worth upgrading your value vit booster/RoH.
I don't know why both of you choose to act like cunts. I didn't misinterpet shit. You addede to what he said indicating its also reasonably good for jungling. The reason I said my bit about it not actually being good for farming is because there are outside observers who read this thread and don't comment who might see people saying wrong/dumb shit and then proceed to do that wrong/dumb thing.
If you buy a vanguard with one of the main reasons so that you can jungle more efficiently then you are doing it wrong. It's only a minor/slight benefit and more often than not is negligible in terms of increasing your farm.
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On September 11 2015 06:45 ChunderBoy wrote:
problems with this hero
she got nerfed during one of the 6.82x patches and never got rebuffed after gold/xp changes got fixed
also she is prone to being silver edged and thus rendered useless
Good point Beesa, I forgot about silver edge in regards to her passives and she normally doesn't go bkb. Does manta usage dispel break? Otherwise might need to get a bkb on her which isn't normally a spectre item.
Also, how goes finding a fifth?
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 11 2015 07:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 06:39 BluemoonSC wrote:
ya i think a couple people misunderstood some posts (specifically mine) for the sake of wanting to sound like they had something to add to the discussion.
there was no "misnomer" involved. i quoted tuna because i wanted to list an additional benefit from being able to stay alive in the kind of scenario that tuna described. of course, vanguard doesn't help you to jungle quickly. it keeps you alive while you farm wherever you can find it bc the enemy team is up your ass. like tuna said, if they're that, early game focused and you can make it to the late game by finding farm/xp where you can and using haunt to KS and leech gold/xp, its worth upgrading your value vit booster/RoH. I don't know why both of you choose to act like cunts. I didn't misinterpet shit. You addede to what he said indicating its also reasonably good for jungling. The reason I said my bit about it not actually being good for farming is because there are outside observers who read this thread and don't comment who might see people saying wrong/dumb shit and then proceed to do that wrong/dumb thing. If you buy a vanguard with one of the main reasons so that you can jungle more efficiently then you are doing it wrong. It's only a minor/slight benefit and more often than not is negligible in terms of increasing your farm.
the word i used was "safely" jungle. not "efficiently."
e: i also used "reasonably" but in the context of tuna's statement, being in a lane where you can't farm bc they have crazy early game.
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On September 11 2015 07:36 the bear jew wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 06:45 ChunderBoy wrote:
problems with this hero
she got nerfed during one of the 6.82x patches and never got rebuffed after gold/xp changes got fixed
also she is prone to being silver edged and thus rendered useless Good point Beesa, I forgot about silver edge in regards to her passives and she normally doesn't go bkb. Does manta usage dispel break? Otherwise might need to get a bkb on her which isn't normally a spectre item. Also, how goes finding a fifth?
ya u can manta silver edge but thats troublesome too coz sometimes u want to manta for other stuff
and silver edge is just too much for spectre to handle she loses dispersion and dies fast (she has not so good stats gains) and her radiance does half the dmg
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i correct word choice because when i use words incorrectly i'd appreciate correction, not because i'm trying to be a cunt.
also when i buy vanguard i farm lanes more than jungle because obviously that's preferable; i only farm jungle when all the lanes are pushed out and there's nothing but the jungle. of course the jungle is the least desirable place to farm, but it's better than literally nothing. vanguard is still nice when you're farming jungle vs dangerous heroes because... i mean one game where i bought it i kept getting solo killed by a wex invoker in the jungle; after vanguard i'd actually not die to him or even him +1
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On September 11 2015 07:54 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 07:36 the bear jew wrote:On September 11 2015 06:45 ChunderBoy wrote:
problems with this hero
she got nerfed during one of the 6.82x patches and never got rebuffed after gold/xp changes got fixed
also she is prone to being silver edged and thus rendered useless Good point Beesa, I forgot about silver edge in regards to her passives and she normally doesn't go bkb. Does manta usage dispel break? Otherwise might need to get a bkb on her which isn't normally a spectre item. Also, how goes finding a fifth? ya u can manta silver edge but thats troublesome too coz sometimes u want to manta for other stuff and silver edge is just too much for spectre to handle she loses dispersion and dies fast (she has not so good stats gains) and her radiance does half the dmg
I'll have to watch out for that the next time I play spectre. Or use it myself. Thanks for the heads up.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
ok so radiances from spectres and her illusions dont stack. if u sedge the main spectre so her radiance burn does less dmg, will it override the full dmg radiance of her illusions? in other words, when there are multiple sources of radiance aura, does anyone kno which one becomes the source that actually does the dmg
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United States47024 Posts
On September 11 2015 17:30 ahswtini wrote:
ok so radiances from spectres and her illusions dont stack. if u sedge the main spectre so her radiance burn does less dmg, will it override the full dmg radiance of her illusions? in other words, when there are multiple sources of radiance aura, does anyone kno which one becomes the source that actually does the dmg
When a unit is affected by two instances of the same aura, the unit that gave it the aura first is the source. If that source moves out of range, the other unit becomes the new source.
Since Spectre's illusions are usually the first to affect enemies heroes with Radiance, they will usually be the source of Radiance damage for Haunt's duration.
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I feel like I learn new shit about dota auras every day.
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210 Posts
how bout spec with MOM BM?
has anyone tried that?
if I remember secret used a spec with MOM BKB
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Why bother? It doesn't help you get a faster Radiance and it doesn't keep you alive in fights. Best case scenario is someone blindly blows themselves up on you right before you die. Worst case scenario is they use BKB (which already stomps on her damage) or they just ignore you for the Blademail duration and kill you while you're still amplifying their damage.
What's your problem with using conventional builds on her? All you have to do is get whatever items help you farm or fight your way to a Radiance within 30 minutes and go from there. That's a pretty big window of opportunity-- if you can't manage that you had no business playing Spectre (or probably even carrying for that matter).
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210 Posts
whats your problem with discussing alternative builds?
do you think every game you can get a luxurious farm?
if you enter every game with the mindset of building the same item over and over
thats boring
trying something out and if it gets effective then why not use it?
you think the items that are conventional now aren't joke back then?
but if thats how you play then go if it works for you go.
I'm just here asking and consulting others about my ideas
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If you want to have a discussion, you should explain the purpose of your alternate build ideas, in what scenarios or against what enemies you think it could be effective, and how the normal builds fail in these scenarios.
My problem is that the good information I've been putting out from my experience on one of my strongest and most-played heroes is getting buried by people whose questions and ideas have been already addressed by my earlier posts.
You can list any combination of random items and ask "how about these things?" but what you should be asking is "how can I get the most out of the normal item build, how can I achieve the normal items in a timely manner, and in what scenarios should I adapt the normal item build to something else?". Asking if you can substitute random items that don't at all accomplish the same thing as the items that have been proven ideal over years of gameplay does not in the least bit promote discussion.
It could be that you've found a great scenario where your alternative item build is good in, but if you don't mention the specific context of your item build it doesn't help anyone in 99% of scenarios where the item builds discussed throughout the thread are far more effective.
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United States47024 Posts
MoM and Dispersion don't interact in the way that you think. Because their damage amplification/reduction are in the same calculation bracket, they have no interaction with each other (i.e. the amount of damage added/reduced/reflected is calculated independent of each other). It actually makes Dispersion WORSE because you die faster while reflecting the same amount of damage as if you didn't activate MoM.
Also, all Spectre MoM games in pro play were before MoM got nerfed. The item got way worse even on the heroes who buy it all the time, so for heroes who only got it extremely situationally, it's going to be even less appealing.
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210 Posts
I mean the MOM is for the MS and the W? desolate BKB or BM for protections so you don't get focused or else they get punished also.
I've tried this with my friends its effective against sniper(the sniper troll era)
it helps spec fight earlier can jungle also if you got pressured
downside is you're not really that tanky as what everbody expected
from there you can now build other items to help you be more of a monster
what I did was go MOM then BKB/BM depends on what would be more useful
then I can go SnY/Skadi(depends now if you can really have more time to farm for skadi or go sny if you know you have to fight)
HoT of course
Rad if you still want it or AC(for me AC is better)
then you can just remove MOM later and get something that you feel is needed
weird build
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United States47024 Posts
On September 12 2015 18:40 wxyLkz wrote:
I've tried this with my friends its effective against sniper(the sniper troll era)
Yeah that was before MoM's MS boost got gutted. MoM was kinda ok on a ton of heroes pre-6.84 because the item itself was that good, even if the hero itself didn't use MoM that well.
That's simply not true anymore after the nerf.
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210 Posts
On September 12 2015 18:47 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2015 18:40 wxyLkz wrote:
I've tried this with my friends its effective against sniper(the sniper troll era) Yeah that was before MoM's MS boost got gutted. MoM was kinda ok on a ton of heroes pre-6.84 because the item itself was that good, even if the hero itself didn't use MoM that well. That's simply not true anymore after the nerf.
can you please explain the nerf with MOM
and thnx with the info about MOM and Disperse
though I was using MOM for the MS but I thought the dmg amplification affects it
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SoCal8910 Posts
if you want more movement speed, you can pick up a yasha for the same cost and your illusions will benefit from the item as well
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i don't think mom has ever been primarily a fighting item, i've always thought of it as something you buy to rice the jungle when most of the space you have consists of the jungle. the item's just way too risky to activate in early skirmishes unless you know for sure nobody's hiding behind the guy you're running down
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 13 2015 00:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i don't think mom has ever been primarily a fighting item, i've always thought of it as something you buy to rice the jungle when most of the space you have consists of the jungle. the item's just way too risky to activate in early skirmishes unless you know for sure nobody's hiding behind the guy you're running down
Idk if it's still true in this patch, but last patch it was the single most efficient dps item for its cost and was definitely a fighting item on multiple popular heroes.
That said, after the nerf it isn't as effective when compared to other damage items in a fight. I think that in the current patch, youre right mom is more of a farming item with lifesteal than a fighting item..and as long as you don't activate it in a risky fight you're ok.
But there are definitely better items to pick up right now unless you're a void where you want that for chrono.
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What should your buildup usually be usually on spectre? PMS, boots, straight into radiance asap? Or would getting treads and/or some other items generally be considered worth it because they'd accelerate spectre's farm toward the radiance?
I've generally been building straight into radiance whenever I can since spec is just an awful hero to pick if you can't go straight into radiance anyway, but recently I've been wondering whether getting the cheap intermediate items would actually be worth it in order to arrive at the radiance faster (or around the same time in the end, but more safely).
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On September 13 2015 02:33 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2015 00:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i don't think mom has ever been primarily a fighting item, i've always thought of it as something you buy to rice the jungle when most of the space you have consists of the jungle. the item's just way too risky to activate in early skirmishes unless you know for sure nobody's hiding behind the guy you're running down Idk if it's still true in this patch, but last patch it was the single most efficient dps item for its cost and was definitely a fighting item on multiple popular heroes.
this is a pretty questionable statement... if you're talking about absolute dps when able to hit someone on attack cd then it hasn't changed (only the ms has) and if you're talking about situational dps (i.e. dps dependent on your ability to hit your target), then well it's situational... sometimes a basher, diffusal, or even bkb will be better for your ability to actually output your dps
and i was talking about mainly spectre, but even on the heroes it was popular on, jugg and void, it was just as much a farming item as it was a fighting item.
like if you want an item to assist with gap closing on spec diffusal is the much safer choice, and if you're getting mom before radiance, as i've said, it's primarily for farming, not fighting. you aren't going to haunt into fights you wouldnt otherwise have haunted into just because you have a mom, and you aren't ever going to go out of your way to look for kills without haunt anyhow.
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On September 13 2015 04:36 Aerisky wrote:
What should your buildup usually be usually on spectre? PMS, boots, straight into radiance asap? Or would getting treads and/or some other items generally be considered worth it because they'd accelerate spectre's farm toward the radiance?
I've generally been building straight into radiance whenever I can since spec is just an awful hero to pick if you can't go straight into radiance anyway, but recently I've been wondering whether getting the cheap intermediate items would actually be worth it in order to arrive at the radiance faster (or around the same time in the end, but more safely).
quelling pms phase/treads aquila yasha radiance manta; justification and adaptations few pages back
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Ah oops, completely forgot about my post a week ago lol.
Anyway Ver mentioned possible items to help you get to the radiance since yeah it's definitely radiance or bust, but it seems like quelling pms into radiance is ideal if possible and you have complete free-farm. I don't really see the motivation behind aquila--it's an entire 1k gold when dagger isn't that great for farming and the regen isn't too high anyway, and the damage/stats are negligible compared to the item pickups you'll get post-radiance. As for phase/treads, that's another 840/950 gold, and yasha seems huge w/ 2050 gold that could go toward the radiance. I see *maybe* getting the boots upgrade but otherwise it just seems like an awful lot of gold.
I did see the bit on how spec is still really strong with a late radiance so it's okay to be late on that, but it still seems like getting that radiance asap is more important. I dunno.
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The aquila might be skippable, I haven't gotten the chance to play around with that idea too much to be able to say definitively whether or not it's worth skipping. I also haven't figured out which I like better of phase and treads-- both seem to be fine.
I have never enjoyed a game where I tried rushing the Relic on nothing. You already can't farm, and with no items you also can't fight. Boots, Aquila, and Yasha all improve your rate of farming while greatly improving your capacity to fight, such that while yes you don't get Relic any sooner, you aren't getting it much later, and are achieving it with your team in a better position thanks to your early contributions and with the enemy team forced to play either more passively or more grouped-- either way gives you more space to actually use your Radiance to farm.
The few times I have stupid amounts of gold before investing in these cheap items and decide I want to save for a naked Radiance I don't actually get the Relic until much later than I expected due to the space that allowed me to save 2k gold not being present anymore. You can sit on 2k gold for a while and get zoned out of all farming sources and passively make your way to Relic, or you can spend your gold as you earn it on cheap combat-stats items that also accelerate your farm and create your own space to farm and use your Radiance.
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On September 13 2015 06:18 Aerisky wrote:
Ah oops, completely forgot about my post a week ago lol.
Anyway Ver mentioned possible items to help you get to the radiance since yeah it's definitely radiance or bust, but it seems like quelling pms into radiance is ideal if possible and you have complete free-farm. I don't really see the motivation behind aquila--it's an entire 1k gold when dagger isn't that great for farming and the regen isn't too high anyway, and the damage/stats are negligible compared to the item pickups you'll get post-radiance. As for phase/treads, that's another 840/950 gold, and yasha seems huge w/ 2050 gold that could go toward the radiance. I see *maybe* getting the boots upgrade but otherwise it just seems like an awful lot of gold.
I did see the bit on how spec is still really strong with a late radiance so it's okay to be late on that, but it still seems like getting that radiance asap is more important. I dunno.
I feel like aquila is the good one from aquila yasha. According to my experience i cant just farm lane creeps after 20 minutes without any health items on spectre and dagger is actually useful for it's 800-1400 damage on neutrals creeps. It's high mana cost still means that I've got to go back after 2 or three daggers, but if i increase the amount from 2 to 3 or 3 to 4 i've won a lot.
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Please don't get vanguard on this hero. Better off getting pms early in a contested lane and top up with additional items. I even got a casual helm once, +5 armor and +3 regen compared to RoH is pretty sick.
I tried phase but this hero is like impossible to play without getting the additional mana from drums, so drums is a must with phase. I like int tread switching though and the attack speed boost your dps for farming and manfighting.
Bottle is very underrated on spectre considering you will be fighting a lot and useful for regen in contested lane. Bottle is equivalent to very cost efficient hp boost in teamfights too. You will get lots of opportunities to heal when weaving in and out of trees.
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Naked relic is possible only if you're free farming and the enemy mid and safe laners probably won't gank you before 10 minutes - but this will be very rare and even if you correctly identify a good situation for doing it you'll still be almost as good off with a safer build. Treads/Urn/Stick -> Relic is my preferred build. Aquila or Yasha doesn't feel worth it. Sometimes you can go RoH instead of Urn if you really need the regen on lane, don't upgrade it into anythin though (except possibly a very late refresher). Don't mindlessly build a PMS every game either, often you don't need it.
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On September 13 2015 08:32 babysimba wrote:
Please don't get vanguard on this hero. Better off getting pms early in a contested lane and top up with additional items. I even got a casual helm once, +5 armor and +3 regen compared to RoH is pretty sick.
I tried phase but this hero is like impossible to play without getting the additional mana from drums, so drums is a must with phase. I like int tread switching though and the attack speed boost your dps for farming and manfighting.
Bottle is very underrated on spectre considering you will be fighting a lot and useful for regen in contested lane. Bottle is equivalent to very cost efficient hp boost in teamfights too. You will get lots of opportunities to heal when weaving in and out of trees.
the games you get vanguard you need the hp in addition to the damage block... the hp for the spell burst and the damage block for the followup autos
you could get pms casual vit booster bottle but 75% chance to block 40 damage vs blocking 20 damage can still mean the difference between surviving and dying vs some kind of burst combo.
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Urn + tread switch with maybe basi/aquila and clarity fetches should be enough for mana issues unless you fight nonstop forcing you to dagger offcd. + stick/wand maybe as well.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 13 2015 05:16 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2015 02:33 BluemoonSC wrote:On September 13 2015 00:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i don't think mom has ever been primarily a fighting item, i've always thought of it as something you buy to rice the jungle when most of the space you have consists of the jungle. the item's just way too risky to activate in early skirmishes unless you know for sure nobody's hiding behind the guy you're running down Idk if it's still true in this patch, but last patch it was the single most efficient dps item for its cost and was definitely a fighting item on multiple popular heroes. this is a pretty questionable statement... if you're talking about absolute dps when able to hit someone on attack cd then it hasn't changed (only the ms has) and if you're talking about situational dps (i.e. dps dependent on your ability to hit your target), then well it's situational... sometimes a basher, diffusal, or even bkb will be better for your ability to actually output your dps and i was talking about mainly spectre, but even on the heroes it was popular on, jugg and void, it was just as much a farming item as it was a fighting item. like if you want an item to assist with gap closing on spec diffusal is the much safer choice, and if you're getting mom before radiance, as i've said, it's primarily for farming, not fighting. you aren't going to haunt into fights you wouldnt otherwise have haunted into just because you have a mom, and you aren't ever going to go out of your way to look for kills without haunt anyhow.
im fairly certain i heard pros saying that because of the attack speed for its cost, it was the most cost efficient item. i could be wrong though. i know you were talking about it on spec, but that's why it saw a nerf..it was way too strong even in situations when it probably shouldnt have been.
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1. i didnt dispute that it was the most cost efficient dps item (in situations where your damage/as ratio is damage-heavy)
2. i feel like the reason it was nerfed wasn't because of its not-strongest uses, but because of its strongest uses (indirect nerf to jugg mainly)... i don't think icefrog would want to balance in a way such that an item is viable in fewer rather than more circumstances when it's not ridiculously op (i mean just look at glimmer and solar crest which are way worse than mom ever was)... it's not like anyone was saying mom spec/luna was op, it was mainly jugg that was the issue at the time
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Hi guys, who is a good player to start learning Spectre from? Is just picking the top few Spectre players from dotabuff a good way to start? I have been having problems with Spectre lately as i realize its pretty much a time bomb ticking down to how early i can get my radiance up while my team is just dying 4v5. Even after that, I have to join pretty much almost every fight because my team is clashing really bad while farming really safely in case I get picked off too.
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Yourself. Spectre is a hero who you can improve a lot on just by studying your own replays. Watch the whole map and see where the enemies are, look at when you were vulnerable, look for times you thought you needed to back but were actually fine, look for times you died because you didn't back, look at opportunities for easy kills with Haunt you missed, look for missed lasthits and ways you could have gotten more out of the jungle, look for ways you could have gotten a little more xp or a few more lasthits during the laning phase, etc.
I love Spectre because when played intelligently she can be a very independent woman hero. She sucks so bad in the laning phase that it almost doesn't matter whether your support knows how to play or not-- unless you have a coordinated trilane or a really passive offlaner in a 2v1 lane you're probably going to feel miserable and get zoned at least a little bit. So just have faith in your ability to create your own space with good ults and have good map awareness not only to direct your ults but to direct your movement through the jungle and between lanes to avoid getting ganked.
I always go to lane with two tangos, a salve, and a stout shield. You can bring 1 or 2 branches as well if you want, getting shield from side shop with passive gold if you bring 2, and then grab quelling from the side shop later, and PMS after that.
If you have to play like an offlaner in your own safelane, so be it. You'll make the enemy suffer later. If you already don't have good farm in lane, encourage your support(s) to leave and help out the other cores or maximize their own farm and levels in the jungle-- the faster xp will help you farm and fight.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 13 2015 22:39 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
1. i didnt dispute that it was the most cost efficient dps item (in situations where your damage/as ratio is damage-heavy)
2. i feel like the reason it was nerfed wasn't because of its not-strongest uses, but because of its strongest uses (indirect nerf to jugg mainly)... i don't think icefrog would want to balance in a way such that an item is viable in fewer rather than more circumstances when it's not ridiculously op (i mean just look at glimmer and solar crest which are way worse than mom ever was)... it's not like anyone was saying mom spec/luna was op, it was mainly jugg that was the issue at the time
maybe i misunderstood what part of my statement you were referring to then, sorry /shrug
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@nightmarjoo: ahh good points for sure, makes a lot of sense. Seems like it's okay for spectre to get a potentially somewhat delayed radiance and get those cheaper utility items, since they'll help make sure your team doesn't collapse/it'll help keep you going and/or accelerate farm toward the radiance.
I was thinking about it the wrong way because I was thinking of it in the style of AM & battlefury: since that radiance is so important to the hero, you gotta make sure you get it asap.
But the problem with that line of thinking on spectre is that you'll be left naked, weak, and unable to contribute while trying to build that relic. Additionally AM really needs to hit his window ASAP by getting the BF and outfarming the enemy carry, whereas spectre is still really strong with a somewhat late radiance, and is a very strong late-game hero who doesn't need to "hit a window or lose" as much. Plus, spectre can actually help out in early fights, and having aquila/treads can be useful when haunting and farming, and help you secure the radiance in a reasonable amount of time anyway. Thanks guys! I love playing spec, so with luck, this'll help out
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Yeah, Spec with a couple cheap items isn't exactly gyro tier but when you can globally join a fight for that sweet assist and kill gold, that really makes up for your crappy farming speed.
I'd say most important thing is that whenever Haunt is off cd, try to have the HP and mana to be able to haunt into a fight and contribute. Even if you don't have Radiance, if you're in range of like 2-3 kills that's putting you like 600+ gold towards your Radiance and it's really not that hard to get kills with desolate
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All you need to maintain is mana for TP while you farm-- using your hp and the rest of your mana pool as a resource for farming-- tank whatever you need to, Dagger as many stacks as you can, etc, while keeping 75 mana. TP to fountain, heal to full, ult on shit.
It's important to heal before ulting unless you have the farm and/or levels to naturally have a high mana pool-- you aren't that strong even with Radiance if you can't afford to Dagger someone right after Realitying in. Having the mana for a second Dagger is really important, as Spectre's fights aren't always short, and she may be chasing a hero for a very long way to get a kill, such that your normally long Dagger cd will actually finish before the fight (or your subsequent escape) are done. It doesn't make sense however to try and save mana for an ult and Dagger at all times-- that's valuable mana and Dagger cds you should be investing in increasing your rate of farm-- either by softening up an entire creep wave to get back into the jungle sooner or to soften up either at least a stacked camp or multiple camps (ideally hit 2 stacked camps).
After you show your team you're going to be aggressive with your ult early two things happen: 1. they know you're going to ult if they start shit, so they have the confidence to set shit up with however many people, be it a 4man push, or a 1-2 man smoke gank, etc; 2. you'll have had the time to identify your team's fight tempo, so you can start to reliably predict when your team is able or willing to fight, so you should know based off how the game has gone so far and based off their current positioning and movement when you need to TP home to heal before a fight.
When your ult is coming off cd, let your team know, and see if it makes sense to preemptively TP fountain to heal, so that everyone is ready the moment your ult is off cd to start shit. If you TP and heal up and they either aren't ready or lost their opportunity, just walk towards the nearest farm source and keep an eye on the map to look for good ult opportunities. It's nice to ult from fountain, but it doesn't hurt too much to ult from full everything outside fountain.
Don't blow your ult just to be ulting-- if you're actively farming something and your team catches a weak support who is 100% going to die without you, doesn't have much xp or gold to give away, and isn't near an objective or a follow-on fight you'd like to participate in, don't bother ulting. If your team gets initiated on and are getting massacred and you can't for sure get 1-2 backline pick-offs and get out alive, don't waste your ult. It's better to let your team get fucked, wait for them to respawn, wait for them to smoke or get their shit together and initiate a winnable fight, and then ult in to lay waste to the enemy.
The exception is if your team no-shit needs you to ult before the fight starts just for that global vision to quickly choose their target and engagement route if they aren't sure if they're near shit with a sketchy smoke or something; and even then don't ult unless you know 100% they will follow-up on your ult and won't pussy out after getting perfect info. In this scenario you may or may not have the time to actually Reality in, since there'll be a delay between you ulting, your team seeing and interpreting the information you gave them, your team making the call on whether or not to go, and you actually choosing the best target to Reality on and executing. Obviously it's better to ult after your team initiates, unless you're already strong and can safely get a guaranteed pickoff on someone.
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before radiance:
just keep 310 mana at all times
haunt aggressively to kill steal
dagger + urn + 3 auto attacks should be very doable. It's about ~600 damage after reduction, plenty doable on a half hp support.
btw the picks are important too. Don't pick spectre against tanky lineups, the more squish they have the better spec will be.
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@nightmarjoo thanks for the tips. I feel like i farm really slowly which is even worse as Spectre doesn't have a truly built in farming mechanic like dark pact or raze but i do somewhat play by haunt cd, always making sure that whenever haunt is up i tell my team and jump in if it worth it while telling my team to avoid fights if haunt is on cd. I guess squeezing out more farm efficiency is really important and I will work on that.
Haven't been playing around with yasha Spectre unless i'm having a bad time but it feels like yasha gives Spectre alot more benefits than i give it credit. Would try to use it!
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On September 15 2015 22:50 evanthebouncy! wrote:
before radiance:
just keep 310 mana at all times
haunt aggressively to kill steal
dagger + urn + 3 auto attacks should be very doable. It's about ~600 damage after reduction, plenty doable on a half hp support.
btw the picks are important too. Don't pick spectre against tanky lineups, the more squish they have the better spec will be.
no less importantly, don't pick spectre if you dont have sufficient breathing room to come online. Spectre-pick can leave your draft vulnerable to collapse early mid game.
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So Arteezy claims to have done 'a shitload of math' on spectre. Proceeds to max dispersion first, going 2-2-4-1 at 11 into 2-2-4-2 at 16. Item build treads wand naked lifesteal before radiance.
Anyone who actually plays spectre want to comment on this? It looks terrible at first glance, but maybe the extra jungle farming speed/survivability from stats + dispersion coupled with the sustain from lifesteal is actually significant. I'm guessing he's going to pretend he's an am and time max dispersion with finishing manta.
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I don't like gimping my haunt damage potential. Sounds like the main aim of that build is to be able to rice the radiance out in a tough game. I personally see little reason to preemptively put so many points in dispersion early on.
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Yeah the idea behind the build is pretty clear, I'm just curious about the math (ie. how much more survivable are you really and how much does maxing dispersion do for your jungle farm).
Also I'm not sure whether it's particularly well-suited for tough games, at least the item build. Feels like in tough games your farming space as spectre is so heavily constricted that pure (and slow) sustain items like morbid mask lose their appeal.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 19 2015 14:19 Orome wrote:
Yeah the idea behind the build is pretty clear, I'm just curious about the math (ie. how much more survivable are you really and how much does maxing dispersion do for your jungle farm).
Also I'm not sure whether it's particularly well-suited for tough games, at least the item build. Feels like in tough games your farming space as spectre is so heavily constricted that pure (and slow) sustain items like morbid mask lose their appeal.
I mean, morbid mask is like best sustain solution, and allows to jump into jungle. With treads+qb even on hero with 0 neutral dps like spectre it works out alright.
Actually, i can even see where rtz comes from. points in haunt are somewhat hard to justify before you have radiance, and spectral dagger/desolate have highest returns per point taken at lvl2 (50% differential increase for dagger and 75% damage increase for desolate), while dispersion can actually be a decent amount of damage (for example for hellbear smashers DPS done by dispersion goes 12 to 34 compared to 128 of spectre herself, plus you reduce hellbear's dps from 62 to 48, while healing around 19 per second). Yeah, i totally see where rtz is coming from, because this build indeed can be pretty good for ricing. I don't trust his math ability tho /s
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i feel like that build is appropriate in way less games than the standard 441 build, but yea it makes sense for a "i dont expect to be able to get any kills by walking in and dagger autoing someone down" haunt-only-to-ks kind of game
alright he's doing another spec game and the build's working out i think it helped him survive once and i dont think he's missed any kills for not having 44
he always goes treads and wand gives a decent amount of hp (17x15=255)
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United States47024 Posts
On September 19 2015 14:44 lolfail9001 wrote:
Actually, i can even see where rtz comes from. points in haunt are somewhat hard to justify before you have radiance, and spectral dagger/desolate have highest returns per point taken at lvl2 (50% differential increase for dagger and 75% damage increase for desolate), while dispersion can actually be a decent amount of damage (for example for hellbear smashers DPS done by dispersion goes 12 to 34 compared to 128 of spectre herself, plus you reduce hellbear's dps from 62 to 48, while healing around 19 per second). Yeah, i totally see where rtz is coming from, because this build indeed can be pretty good for ricing. I don't trust his math ability tho /s
% damage differential is an incredibly stupid way to compare skill ranks in most cases. Especially for a non-active skill that doesn't cost mana. Really if you take the "% damage differential" shit, then all skills are 1 point wonders because rank 1 is always the biggest % differential effectiveness because you go from not having the skill to having it.
In most cases, raw damage increase per rank is the only meaningful comparison. The fact that rank 2 is double rank 1 damage and rank 3 is only 1.5x rank 2 doesn't actually convey any meaningful information because in both cases you just get 50 extra damage out of a rank of the skill. It doesn't make the 3rd rank worse than the 2nd. 50 damage is 50 damage.
Dispersion max was a thing before, so it's not really like that's new, but there's not anything special about rank 2 Dagger/Desolate unless you're following the silly "% damage increase" argument, so I don't see why you'd want 2-2-4+stats over 1-1-4+stats, and I definitely don't see why you'd continue to level stats past your Radiance (at that point Radiance comprises the overwhelming majority of your farming ability, so Stats doesn't increase your farming ability much anymore). In fact, that's probably the most questionable part of the build--the fact that he continues to ignore Dagger and Desolate past when he has his Radiance.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 19 2015 23:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2015 14:44 lolfail9001 wrote:
Actually, i can even see where rtz comes from. points in haunt are somewhat hard to justify before you have radiance, and spectral dagger/desolate have highest returns per point taken at lvl2 (50% differential increase for dagger and 75% damage increase for desolate), while dispersion can actually be a decent amount of damage (for example for hellbear smashers DPS done by dispersion goes 12 to 34 compared to 128 of spectre herself, plus you reduce hellbear's dps from 62 to 48, while healing around 19 per second). Yeah, i totally see where rtz is coming from, because this build indeed can be pretty good for ricing. I don't trust his math ability tho /s % damage differential is an incredibly stupid way to compare skill ranks in most cases. Especially for a non-active skill that doesn't cost mana. Really if you take the "% damage differential" shit, then all skills are 1 point wonders because rank 1 is always the biggest % differential effectiveness because you go from not having the skill to having it. In most cases, raw damage increase per rank is the only meaningful comparison. The fact that rank 2 is double rank 1 damage and rank 3 is only 1.5x rank 2 doesn't actually convey any meaningful information because in both cases you just get 50 extra damage out of a rank of the skill. It doesn't make the 3rd rank worse than the 2nd. 50 damage is 50 damage. Dispersion max was a thing before, so it's not really like that's new, but there's not anything special about rank 2 Dagger/Desolate unless you're following the silly "% damage increase" argument, so I don't see why you'd want 2-2-4+stats over 1-1-4+stats, and I definitely don't see why you'd continue to level stats past your Radiance (at that point Radiance comprises the overwhelming majority of your farming ability, so Stats doesn't increase your farming ability much anymore). In fact, that's probably the most questionable part of the build--the fact that he continues to ignore Dagger and Desolate past when he has his Radiance.
Actually, you forget that there are skills that are indeed scaling evenly between all levels. CK's crit for example. I mean, you do have a point, but i am just trying to pull any justification for such weird skill build. So, really, yeah, i am just trying to think of silliest way possible to come to such skill build. Though never mind, it's fucking Arteezy stream, why are we even discussing this?
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arteezy is a bit overrated in my opinion
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Er, I don't understand your CK example...
He gains +50% crit damage from each point. The 2nd point is technically +33% crit damage on his 1st point and the 3rd is +25% on the 2nd. That's not "scaling evenly" at all. I don't see how it's any different from the spectre analogy...
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 20 2015 01:41 GtC wrote:
Er, I don't understand your CK example...
He gains +50% crit damage from each point. The 2nd point is technically +33% crit damage on his 1st point and the 3rd is +25% on the 2nd. That's not "scaling evenly" at all. I don't see how it's any different from the spectre analogy...
I mean in the sense Yango provides (aka overall incremental benefit). By getting first point you get 5% DPS increase, by getting second you get 10% DPS increase (so 5% more than first) and so on. CK is kinda unique in having passive so bad though. What you mention is how i tried to justify rtz's skill build and as you see, it does not really work.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean that still skirts around the more egregious issue of why you wouldn't level skills again after you completed Radiance, and would continue to get stats all the way past level 16.
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On September 19 2015 23:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2015 14:44 lolfail9001 wrote:
Actually, i can even see where rtz comes from. points in haunt are somewhat hard to justify before you have radiance, and spectral dagger/desolate have highest returns per point taken at lvl2 (50% differential increase for dagger and 75% damage increase for desolate), while dispersion can actually be a decent amount of damage (for example for hellbear smashers DPS done by dispersion goes 12 to 34 compared to 128 of spectre herself, plus you reduce hellbear's dps from 62 to 48, while healing around 19 per second). Yeah, i totally see where rtz is coming from, because this build indeed can be pretty good for ricing. I don't trust his math ability tho /s Dispersion max was a thing before, so it's not really like that's new, but there's not anything special about rank 2 Dagger/Desolate unless you're following the silly "% damage increase" argument, so I don't see why you'd want 2-2-4+stats over 1-1-4+stats, and I definitely don't see why you'd continue to level stats past your Radiance (at that point Radiance comprises the overwhelming majority of your farming ability, so Stats doesn't increase your farming ability much anymore). In fact, that's probably the most questionable part of the build--the fact that he continues to ignore Dagger and Desolate past when he has his Radiance.
I'm sure he just gets the stats post-radiance for extra hp (levelling stats is somewhat more attractive with his build given how hp and dispersion interact). Whether that really makes up for keeping desolate at 2 is is obviously situational and hard to tell, but you do get a decent chunk of ehp out of it.
edit: okay he actually doesn't max desolate before like lvl 24 even after he finishes manta. i really don't see how that can possibly be good.
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he just played one again... lvl 2 dagger and lvl 3 desolate at like lvl 17
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I'm not sure there's anything about radiance that makes you desperately need to max your nukes after it. Spec is happy to keep farming and the extra bulk is still useful to keep you in a fight longer. If I were going to do that build I'd stop stats when I was confident I'd survive getting bursted, whether that's before radi or after.
The biggest issue (among many) to me is that he doesn't even max desolate with freaking manta. And that's not even mentioning the value of the dagger ms.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 20 2015 11:35 Belisarius wrote:
I'm not sure there's anything about radiance that makes you desperately need to max your nukes after it. Spec is happy to keep farming and the extra bulk is still useful to keep you in a fight longer. If I were going to do that build I'd stop stats when I was confident I'd survive getting bursted, whether that's before radi or after.
The biggest issue (among many) to me is that he doesn't even max desolate with freaking manta. And that's not even mentioning the value of the dagger ms.
Well, past the point where you have Radiance, you no longer really have to take risks for farm, because at that point your avenues for farming open up a lot since you don't do jungle slowly anymore. Being bulky enough is more a product of your items than having more points in Stats, so between Radiance and your defensive item, having more dangerous Haunts is more valuable than being slightly tankier.
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That build seems like some really old school shit back when every carry went radiance+heart with the logic of "You can't do any right click damage while you're disabled so radiance is the best damage item because of the burn"
If they're spread out for dangerous haunts, you're in a good spot anyway because you can pick people off solo, and with max dispersion+stats they can't manfight you because you're so tanky. Max dispersion+stats means you are more likely to survive being chainstunned and focused in a fight, and if you're stunned up desolate doesn't do shit for you anyway. And if you're not disabled and just running people down does the extra desolate damage really matter?
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 22 2015 02:59 TomatoBisque wrote:
That build seems like some really old school shit back when every carry went radiance+heart with the logic of "You can't do any right click damage while you're disabled so radiance is the best damage item because of the burn"
If they're spread out for dangerous haunts, you're in a good spot anyway because you can pick people off solo, and with max dispersion+stats they can't manfight you because you're so tanky. Max dispersion+stats means you are more likely to survive being chainstunned and focused in a fight, and if you're stunned up desolate doesn't do shit for you anyway. And if you're not disabled and just running people down does the extra desolate damage really matter?
ideally, when you haunt in, and with manta, it is difficult to tell which spectre is the real spectre making any panic disable a risk between living or dying. if they pick the real spectre, desolate still does its full damage on your manta illusions and mayyybe they live if they have an escape. if they pick the fake spectre.. well they get daggered and killed lol. not to mention, desolate is pure damage and if you're running people down, more damage = faster kill so you can get out before an enemy response (which is the key to a successful initiate + spectre haunt gank)
so yes, desolate definitely matters
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United States47024 Posts
Desolate is why Spectre is actually dangerous to backline heroes. Otherwise has mediocre Agi growth for an Agi carry and buys more defensive items than other carries do.
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The build is obviously worse if you have radiance+manta+something else and just haunt to go solo kill supports or something, but I'm not talking about that. I don't even think that's important. It's nice to get kills but is it worth putting haunt onto cd for it? Is that gonna win the game? Spectre's not exactly a hero that falls off late game, so she doesn't need to constantly threaten to kill people, she mostly needs to not lose.
224 is aimed towards 5v5 engagements where it's easy to get disabled by aoe or because you're the carry and people want to kill you and stop you from attacking because you're the carry. It's better for fighting at an equal or disadvantaged state because even if you get chain disabled from 100 to 0 you did more damage than with the 441 build, and it's harder to chain disable you down like that. You're more durable at Spectre's weakest (when you just have Rad and leading into Manta), which lets you farm a bit more dangerously and participate in teamfights with less risk of dying (which also means more kill/assist gold)
It's possible he also thinks that you won't get that many desolates off in a fight which makes maxing it not worth. I dunno.
I've not seen rtz actually play it though.
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but that's all only relevant if the enemy team is smart enough to 5man aggressively at that stage, given that they have a clearly superior 5v5 (which is already a gamble vs spec cuz once she has radiance, she'll be quickly pushing out a side lane with the threat of haunting in anytime)
441 gets (more consistent) random pickoffs when they're not 5manning to delay the 5man and push the game towards your 4-5-6 slot, which is contributing to the "not losing" condition.
edit: actually i just read your earlier post, saying you dont need more offensive points to get solo stragglers anyway, which is true to an extent...but even in a "5v5" the speed at which you burst down some hero hiding in the back scales greatly with desolate, so... yea idk...
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I would assume that rtz is making this build for the majors and TI and not pubs, and would thus assume his enemies are competent when making his build.
I do agree that only 2 points in each skill is kind of weird though but rtz loves his stats
edit: I think the backline thing is him assuming he can't get many desolates off in the opening of a fight. I haven't seen his math so shrug
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 22 2015 06:04 TomatoBisque wrote:
I would assume that rtz is making this build for the majors and TI and not pubs, and would thus assume his enemies are competent when making his build.
I do agree that only 2 points in each skill is kind of weird though but rtz loves his stats
edit: I think the backline thing is him assuming he can't get many desolates off in the opening of a fight. I haven't seen his math so shrug
if you've watched RTZ stream long enough, he tends to play as greedy as possible and tends to have a playstyle he sticks to with a given hero in a pub. and if you've watched long enough you know that he recognizes he's playing with/against players that have 1/4 of his knowledge and skill (and that's being generous).
anyway, keep in mind that the benefit you see from dispersion decreases the further a unit is away from her so even if there was some merit to playing this way (which i personally don't believe there is)
300 radius: 10%/14%/18%/22% of dealt damage
475 radius: 7.5%/10.5%/13.5%/16.5% of dealt damage
650 radius: 5%/7%/9%/11% of dealt damage
825 radius: 2.5%/3.5%/4.5%/5.5% of dealt damage
think about all of the heroes in the meta right now and how many of them have things that can damage you >650 range. you're only seeing half the benefit that the skill has to offer in that scenario.
furthermore, haunt illusions fully ignore stuns and can attack while cycloned (which is something i didn't know)..that makes dispersion even more important because if YOU are disabled, they can still do pure bonus damage on top of whatever attack dmg they're already doing and radiance burn. im not sure that i would ever level dispersion over desolate.
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I don't watch other people stream that much so yeah
I knew dispersion got weaker based on distance but couldn't recall exact numbers. Technically it's >475 range for half damage, which I guess is most ranged heroes/supports.
I also don't see why we're assuming every attack is gonna be a desolate attack in a teamfight. It's a 325 aoe which is not THAT small
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 22 2015 07:42 TomatoBisque wrote:
I don't watch other people stream that much so yeah
I knew dispersion got weaker based on distance but couldn't recall exact numbers. Technically it's >475 range for half damage, which I guess is most ranged heroes/supports.
I also don't see why we're assuming every attack is gonna be a desolate attack in a teamfight. It's a 325 aoe which is not THAT small
The decrease is linear from 300 to 1000 so you will get exactly half dmg at 650 iirc. Either way, the dmg reduction isn't as impactful at the timing you would be maxing it before anything else. You can't really compare it to a gank with haunt and max desolate at lvl 8.
But no, you won't get every attack to be a desolate attack, its true. However we're talking about pubs with an extended laning phase and very few defensive tp's. You'll find success more often than not in these games.
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441 = 4 in dagger, 4 in desolate, 1 in dispersion, taking ulti when you can?
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anything that doesnt max dagger/desolate after her most recent nerfs is a joke
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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indirect nerfs: silver edge (40%  )
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6.82b nerfs coz of gold change memes which later got fixed and spectre didnt get rebuffed
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She's gotten plenty of nerfs both direct and indirect
-Diffusal rework (lowered manabreak)
-Repeated Refresher CD nerfs
-MS nerf
-Haunt damage nerf
-Introduction of glimmer cape forcing an early gem
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I'm still bitter about the MS nerf
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ya got rekt so hard
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After the change of boots and desolate i will go Phase Boots with 1-4-1-1 route. PT attack speed nerfed, and desolate can actually help farming.
What do you think about Dispersion change?
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dispersion change is a buff to casual cloak heheheheh woooooooo
and as someone noted in the other thread, heroes will low armor will die faster and take more damage when she has high armor (having a high ehp:hp ratio relative to opponents increases how much damage dispersion puts out now) but it decreases dispersion damage to enemy carries with higher armor
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Spectre dispersion is a buff unless a hero with higher armor is physically hitting you. Even then their supports still receive more damage. Desolate working on creeps is huge on recovery farm in the jungle. Pretty sure this hero is broken now.
What i posted in the 6.85 thread.
Still go power treads. You need attack speed (and int treads) to farm big camps. I'm guessing go mana items like bottle on top of aquila, spam dagger and kill low hp neutrals first.
Actually i wonder if vlads is good on this hero now for jungle sustain. It's only 1k+ more than aquila.
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On September 25 2015 09:49 babysimba wrote:Show nested quote +Spectre dispersion is a buff unless a hero with higher armor is physically hitting you. Even then their supports still receive more damage. Desolate working on creeps is huge on recovery farm in the jungle. Pretty sure this hero is broken now. What i posted in the 6.85 thread. Still go power treads. You need attack speed (and int treads) to farm big camps. I'm guessing go mana items like bottle on top of aquila, spam dagger and kill low hp neutrals first. Actually i wonder if vlads is good on this hero now for jungle sustain. It's only 1k+ more than aquila.
Eh then you'd have to ask yourself why you're upgrading your morbid mask to make a vlad.
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SoCal8910 Posts
you shouldn't be getting a morbid mask on this hero
if sustain is a concern for you, pick up a casual RoH..slight cost reduction this patch is quite nice and with the (awesome) desolate buff, you'll be killing things pretty quickly in the jungle, so lifesteal won't be an issue.
RoH + Aquila will be more than sufficient for sustain on her this patch.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
I mean, RoH and Morbid Mask is like 50 gold difference with Morbid actually providing more sustain when you are hitting shit. And as much as i like desolate buff (even if i think it's going wrong way), it's not going to help you do much until you get to last creep.
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Well rtz is either a prophet or had an advance copy of the patch notes. The dispersion damage is totally legit for early jungle.
I'm too lazy to check but if vanguard block interacts well with the new dispersion I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being really good as a stepping stone to radi.
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On September 25 2015 23:16 Belisarius wrote:
Well rtz is either a prophet or had an advance copy of the patch notes. The dispersion damage is totally legit for early jungle.
I'm too lazy to check but if vanguard block interacts well with the new dispersion I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being really good as a stepping stone to radi.
vanguard block does interact well, and i'm tempted to say it's going to be underrated, but getting vanguard is a big commitment and i still think you should only get it if you can't survive otherwise.
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On September 25 2015 23:34 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2015 23:16 Belisarius wrote:
Well rtz is either a prophet or had an advance copy of the patch notes. The dispersion damage is totally legit for early jungle.
I'm too lazy to check but if vanguard block interacts well with the new dispersion I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being really good as a stepping stone to radi. vanguard block does interact well, and i'm tempted to say it's going to be underrated, but getting vanguard is a big commitment and i still think you should only get it if you can't survive otherwise.
Maybe you just keep the stout and get a RoH for laning and make the call on the vit booster later on. I do think there are a lot of games where a stepping stone item before radiance would be good. Depends on how must of a disaster your pub game is.
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yea it's usually some mix of phase/treads, stout/pms, roh/morbid mask (rtz gets mask but yea idk i think its for easier games than roh), aquila, urn, casual cloak, drums, and vanguard, with vanguard being for the toughest earlygames
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Spec's pre-radi build is always going to be a complex read on her entire team's position. If they can create kills for her to KS it's obviously going to be better to go urn/aquila/yasha etc and be active, but vanguard is now for hard games, rather than previously where it was for "fuck this we lost" games.
Her skillbuild is also a lot more interesting now. All three of her skills could be maxed first in different scenarios. Vanguard games are probably max dispersion hide-in-jungle games, and urn/aquila games want dagger or desolate.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On September 25 2015 23:46 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
yea it's usually some mix of phase/treads, stout/pms, roh/morbid mask (rtz gets mask but yea idk i think its for easier games than roh), aquila, urn, casual cloak, drums, and vanguard, with vanguard being for the toughest earlygames
I like how you write a laundry list of items but don't include Orb of Venom. Oov is absolutely core on spectre, because it works with Haunt illusions.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 27 2015 23:29 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2015 23:46 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
yea it's usually some mix of phase/treads, stout/pms, roh/morbid mask (rtz gets mask but yea idk i think its for easier games than roh), aquila, urn, casual cloak, drums, and vanguard, with vanguard being for the toughest earlygames I like how you write a laundry list of items but don't include Orb of Venom. Oov is absolutely core on spectre, because it works with Haunt illusions.
Oh come on, that's a bad way to embarass yourself. No, OoV does not work with illusions (haunt ones included).
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United States47024 Posts
The item was bugged to work on illusions for a while, but that got fixed a long time ago (like 2 years at least--I remember people noticing the bug post-TI2, but by post-TI3 it was fixed).
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On September 28 2015 00:09 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 23:29 cecek wrote:On September 25 2015 23:46 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
yea it's usually some mix of phase/treads, stout/pms, roh/morbid mask (rtz gets mask but yea idk i think its for easier games than roh), aquila, urn, casual cloak, drums, and vanguard, with vanguard being for the toughest earlygames I like how you write a laundry list of items but don't include Orb of Venom. Oov is absolutely core on spectre, because it works with Haunt illusions. Oh come on, that's a bad way to embarass yourself. No, OoV does not work with illusions (haunt ones included).
Saw your flair on reddit, and it is Terrorblade instead of Spectre. Needless to say, I am disappointed.
About OoV, not core by any means, it is great if you are playing aggressive ganking Spectre with Urn but it is a waste of gold if you go for Morbid Mask, Treads, Max Dispersion and farm jungle.
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ac late core
casual hood mid game maybe not sure
prolly best support is dazzle for late game +/- armour dispersion extravaganza
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
Oov doesn't work with Haunt illusions?! My entire life has been a lie. Brb, killing myself.
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I gotta say I've had a lot of games where I get shit on in lane cause team picks retarded lanes, just hang on to get morbid mask plus treads and jungle, and ks with haunt. Still get about a 25 minute radiance every time.
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i tend to get bottle over life leech. Is your damage high enough to sustain jungling at 100%?
You also get some mana to spam your daggers
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go full godlykha and farm sidelanes with dominated hotd creep
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On September 28 2015 07:06 juracule wrote:
go full godlykha and farm sidelanes with dominated hotd creep
To do that you need to spend almost 2k on an item that has terrible synergy with Spectre. Even if you sometimes want the morbid mask to jungle, that still another 900 for the ability to dominate. Plus the reason you're jungeling in the first place is presumably because standing on the lane is dangerous. A lot of the time that creep will not be able to stand there either.
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Im sure that works in 3k but only there
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Do you think Hood is worth it over casual cloak?
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On September 28 2015 07:51 TomatoBisque wrote:
Do you think Hood is worth it over casual cloak?
id say only possibly vs ridiculous combos like veno aa or some sort of 5 nuker comp that you only need to survive the midgame against and you'd still rather teammates carry pipe and glimmers if possible in that kind of situation. also casual vit booster would probably be necessary against such heavy nuking comps.
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Yeah, I played vs. a Shaker/Sand King/Ogre lineup and I felt like Cloak+Vit Booster would have been better than Hood
Especially since I went Phase instead of Treads
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I dont think hood is that much better over cloak unless u already have a value RoH from laning
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On September 28 2015 07:00 evanthebouncy! wrote:
i tend to get bottle over life leech. Is your damage high enough to sustain jungling at 100%?
You also get some mana to spam your daggers
I usually don't have a problem. I have poor man's shield too, usually put more in dispersion, and it's not bad after you get some levels. Usually around level 8 ish once I can go to jungle.
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If my pub spectres are reading this, please stop buying Mask of Madness on this hero. You only need Morbid Mask to sustain yourself in jungle, upgrading to MoM to farm faster is an investment of 900g. If you can get uncontested farm long enough for that to pay itself back to you factoring in the delay of other more immediately useful items, you probably would have won anyway because you're playing spectre
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against heavy nukes I think cloak>treads>vit booster>rad>heart is a pretty efficient build up. and you dont need a mask to jungle, just get a vangaurd and youll be able to jungle/not be made of paper for a little extra gold. and the ROH is better in lane
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I cant decide if I like this hero better than other i.e. slark for mmr grinding. The hero cant do much early and on sea server a game can be very much over by 20 mins.
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On October 05 2015 11:39 gaijindash wrote:
I cant decide if I like this hero better than other i.e. slark for mmr grinding. The hero cant do much early and on sea server a game can be very much over by 20 mins.
Slark wins. It is a no contest. Not even close.
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Yeah I thought as much. Sometimes spectre just feels so easy though, if your team plays reasonably youre just a ticking time bomb.
I should be less lazy
have you noticed SEA mmr being particularly bad lately duck? Seems like theres heaps more griefers and ragers since reborn started
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On October 05 2015 12:55 gaijindash wrote:Yeah I thought as much. Sometimes spectre just feels so easy though, if your team plays reasonably youre just a ticking time bomb. I should be less lazy have you noticed SEA mmr being particularly bad lately duck? Seems like theres heaps more griefers and ragers since reborn started
Well I can't comment since I've been playing customs :S
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On October 05 2015 13:05 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 12:55 gaijindash wrote:Yeah I thought as much. Sometimes spectre just feels so easy though, if your team plays reasonably youre just a ticking time bomb. I should be less lazy have you noticed SEA mmr being particularly bad lately duck? Seems like theres heaps more griefers and ragers since reborn started Well I can't comment since I've been playing customs :S
I had a gemTD binge the other week
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On October 05 2015 12:03 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 11:39 gaijindash wrote:
I cant decide if I like this hero better than other i.e. slark for mmr grinding. The hero cant do much early and on sea server a game can be very much over by 20 mins. Slark wins. It is a no contest. Not even close.
Is slark even good this patch?
He was god awful last patch, but I guess lot of heroes that were good against him aren't played now. Not sure about the speed of this patch either.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
lina storm lesh all nerfed. as a result, antimage isnt picked as often. pl is still annoying to deal with and now everyones playing doom
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Its pretty easy to get out of control on slark now once you have SB. Especially with all the shadowfiends and windrunners, and without all the storms and leshes and linas
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this hero has been plaguing all my games lately, i.e. someone on my team always picks her and farms so freaking slowly even with massive space. and theyre always assholes to boot!
what is happening??
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She wins no matter what after 30-35 mins if both teams play to win
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Heh, I have the opposite experience. She almost never wins unless "carried". And falling behind early seems to be the norm.
Even games Ive played offlane in 2-1-2 setups and both me and our mid does well, our safelane spectre seems to get 25min radiance. So by the time she comes online we've almost cleared out all enemy T2s and the enemy team is largely pushed back to their base. Yea sure its a lategame insurance, but it really feels like you have to carry her way longer than you should have to with any carry. And if theres no one on the team to help her get that radiance at any descent timing it seems you just lose.
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I recently had a game on Spectre where I was shoved into position 4 past the early laning phase by an uncooperative and greedy team, and still outcarried the other team's position 1 anti-mage at 40 minutes. The assist gold and radiance buffs are just that effective on her.
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On October 07 2015 23:31 Buckyman wrote:
I recently had a game on Spectre where I was shoved into position 4 past the early laning phase by an uncooperative and greedy team, and still outcarried the other team's position 1 anti-mage at 40 minutes. The assist gold and radiance buffs are just that effective on her.
Pretty much what I experienced mostly. Similarly, last night I got rekt by a radi phoenix in a clowny game because of how ridiculous the miss chance of the radi is.
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On October 07 2015 23:31 Buckyman wrote:
I recently had a game on Spectre where I was shoved into position 4 past the early laning phase by an uncooperative and greedy team, and still outcarried the other team's position 1 anti-mage at 40 minutes. The assist gold and radiance buffs are just that effective on her.
This. During the laning phase you need to just not die and tank up with cheap items, the most effective probably being PMS, Aquila, and Urn. From that point you just need to be effective with haunt usage and the Radiance timing should usually be reasonable even if the safe lane was "hard". The initial CS in lane isn't that important, the experience in lane is FAR more important.
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On October 08 2015 01:45 dutchfriese wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 23:31 Buckyman wrote:
I recently had a game on Spectre where I was shoved into position 4 past the early laning phase by an uncooperative and greedy team, and still outcarried the other team's position 1 anti-mage at 40 minutes. The assist gold and radiance buffs are just that effective on her. This. During the laning phase you need to just not die and tank up with cheap items, the most effective probably being PMS, Aquila, and Urn. From that point you just need to be effective with haunt usage and the Radiance timing should usually be reasonable even if the safe lane was "hard". The initial CS in lane isn't that important, the experience in lane is FAR more important.
Wand & Power Treads!!
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SoCal8910 Posts
On October 08 2015 01:50 14CC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 01:45 dutchfriese wrote:On October 07 2015 23:31 Buckyman wrote:
I recently had a game on Spectre where I was shoved into position 4 past the early laning phase by an uncooperative and greedy team, and still outcarried the other team's position 1 anti-mage at 40 minutes. The assist gold and radiance buffs are just that effective on her. This. During the laning phase you need to just not die and tank up with cheap items, the most effective probably being PMS, Aquila, and Urn. From that point you just need to be effective with haunt usage and the Radiance timing should usually be reasonable even if the safe lane was "hard". The initial CS in lane isn't that important, the experience in lane is FAR more important. Wand & Power Treads!!
the value that you get from aquilla, the str from urn (and the dmg), and the new phase boots for haunt all outclass a wand + PT build atm. imo, anyway. and im more of a treads person, myself.
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Im playing carry atm and my rotation is basically Slark 60% AM 20% Spectre 20%. Sometimes you look at how the draft is progressing and see that youll be able to get a decent start and just pick Spectre for a very easy win.
Also I agree with chunderboy who said AC late is core on this hero, hes 100% right
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On October 08 2015 02:55 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 01:50 14CC wrote:On October 08 2015 01:45 dutchfriese wrote:On October 07 2015 23:31 Buckyman wrote:
I recently had a game on Spectre where I was shoved into position 4 past the early laning phase by an uncooperative and greedy team, and still outcarried the other team's position 1 anti-mage at 40 minutes. The assist gold and radiance buffs are just that effective on her. This. During the laning phase you need to just not die and tank up with cheap items, the most effective probably being PMS, Aquila, and Urn. From that point you just need to be effective with haunt usage and the Radiance timing should usually be reasonable even if the safe lane was "hard". The initial CS in lane isn't that important, the experience in lane is FAR more important. Wand & Power Treads!! the value that you get from aquilla, the str from urn (and the dmg), and the new phase boots for haunt all outclass a wand + PT build atm. imo, anyway. and im more of a treads person, myself.
i dont think the new phase boots are better than the old ones in most cases for haunt because the problem was rarely getting to them for the first hit, it was getting the 2nd and 3rd hits, which a longer duration/smaller buff was better for i think
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When would you get AC? Straight after radiance, or as a 4-5th big item?
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i also get AC on spectre on almost all of my games. Mostly after radiance or depending on the situation after rad/heart or manta. My most common item progression is tango/magic wand/phase to a vit booster and/or roh then radiance. then more often than not after radiance i get AC. My most common skill build is 4-1-1-1 then max desolate
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On October 08 2015 21:18 PoulsenB wrote:
When would you get AC? Straight after radiance, or as a 4-5th big item?
In my opinion, 3rd-5th item. After Radiance I would still get Manta/Heart/Skadi first.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
i would prefer manta/heart for the hp first. after radiance is around the timing where most of the dmg is still from spells, so would rather hp than armour. also hp makes armour more effective etc...
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Is vanguard still viable as a pre-radiance sustain/survivabiliy item? If it is, what should be the buildup? Stout/regen/branches > brown boots > quelling > phase > vit booser into full vanguard?
I feel vanguard would be quite alright in lower level pubs, where there are a lot of random fights and lots of people go for the urn, making it impractical to get for the Spectre player (with all the pudges and huskars running around).
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On October 09 2015 18:16 PoulsenB wrote:
Is vanguard still viable as a pre-radiance sustain/survivabiliy item? If it is, what should be the buildup? Stout/regen/branches > brown boots > quelling > phase > vit booser into full vanguard?
I feel vanguard would be quite alright in lower level pubs, where there are a lot of random fights and lots of people go for the urn, making it impractical to get for the Spectre player (with all the pudges and huskars running around).
It's p.good in my experience, you can get it by 8 minutes with this buildup and it makes you feel much more comfortable farming lanes after the laning phase, plus you can actually farm jungle without biting your fingernails off all the time. If you are unsure about your farming capabilities in a particular game, just get a vit booster and then decide whether to finish it and then start saving for radi or to get radi as soon as possible, with the vit booster being used later for the heart. The sooner you get radi the better, since burning haunt will be that much more deadly and you can skew the game in your favor much quicker.
Urn is p.good against pudger AND huskar since it's pure damage, and you shouldn't be manmoding huskar until much later anyway.
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On October 09 2015 19:36 makmeatt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 18:16 PoulsenB wrote:
Is vanguard still viable as a pre-radiance sustain/survivabiliy item? If it is, what should be the buildup? Stout/regen/branches > brown boots > quelling > phase > vit booser into full vanguard?
I feel vanguard would be quite alright in lower level pubs, where there are a lot of random fights and lots of people go for the urn, making it impractical to get for the Spectre player (with all the pudges and huskars running around). It's p.good in my experience, you can get it by 8 minutes with this buildup and it makes you feel much more comfortable farming lanes after the laning phase, plus you can actually farm jungle without biting your fingernails off all the time. If you are unsure about your farming capabilities in a particular game, just get a vit booster and then decide whether to finish it and then start saving for radi or to get radi as soon as possible, with the vit booster being used later for the heart. The sooner you get radi the better, since burning haunt will be that much more deadly and you can skew the game in your favor much quicker. Urn is p.good against pudger AND huskar since it's pure damage, and you shouldn't be manmoding huskar until much later anyway.
Thanks mate, I'll try it out today after work
As for the urn, I meant that you often have other urn carriers in your team who get it regardless of what other people are doing, so if you get one as well you can't get charges reliably ;]
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New dispersion's extra effect with damage block, by the numbers:
Stout shield + level 1 Dispersion - 1.6 extra damage reflected per proc (0.8 avg. per attack)
Stout shield + level 2 Dispersion - 2.24 extra damage reflected per proc (1.14 avg per attack)
Poor man's shield + level 1 Dispersion - 2 extra damage reflected per proc. The effect of reflecting before the extra armor is negligible (roughly 0.25% of the attack)
Poor man's shield + level 4 dispersion - 4.4 extra damage reflected per proc. The effect of reflecting before the extra armor is almost negligible (roughly 0.5% of the attack)
Vanguard + level 1 Dispersion - 4 extra damage reflected per proc (3 avg. per attack)
Vanguard + level 4 Dispersion - 8.8 extra damage reflected per proc (6.6 avg per attack)
Crimson Guard buff + level 4 Dispersion - 12 extra damage reflected per attack
Pipe of Insight barrier should still block damage before Dispersion applies. I have not tested this, however. If it does disperse damage done to the Pipe barrier, the interaction would reflect 112 extra damage.
Guardian Angel/Cold Embrace + level 4 Dispersion - No extra damage negated, but now returns 22% of incoming damage.
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SoCal8910 Posts
its still not worth leveling before anything else though.
I played her the other day, felt pretty good about getting 4 points into desolate with the new phase boots.
my question is, desolate only works on creeps if they are completely by themselves, as in there is no hero OR other friendly/neutral creeps near by? in the heat of the game I only paid attention at certain times and that's what I thought I noticed. just want to confirm.
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neuts shouldn't block desolate (they used to but it was fixed, theres a chance it could be broken again), allied creeps do* block
edit: dont -> do
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SoCal8910 Posts
when you say allied creeps..
im referring to the fact that if I am alone in lane (no enemy heroes near by) and im last hitting..
are you saying that MY creeps won't block desolate?
or are you saying that the enemy's surrounding creeps won't block desolate?
basically if there are no heroes near by, should my desolate work on enemy lane creeps and neutrals, no matter how many of them are next to one another.
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whoops my bad i meant to say allied creeps do block
enemy creeps block, specs creeps do not block
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Yeah IIRC desolate only works on creep that are isolated from other enemy creep, I think the ranged creep is generally far enough away from the melee creep for desolate to work for example, or when youre killing the last creep in the wave desolate will work on that creep.
SEA its pretty standard to use vaguard buildup into radiance, or at least vit booster into radiance then heart. the urn phase is good if youre hoping to nab some gold from cleaning up fights, but means you will be paper if youre ganked.
The hero is supposed to suck pre-radiance, theres not all that much you can do about it short of playing exceptionally well, so it depends if you want to be an in for a penny in for a pound kind of player, where you farm exceptionally safe and clean up fights when they happen with phase urn, or if you want a build like vangaurd which gives slightly more chance to survive ganks and a larger room for error, but has less potential pay off than phase urn. it really depends on the server, shit is so chaotic on sea that its a lot safer to go with treads vang.
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I see there is a lot of discussion about Vanguard Spectre, which is awesome because I think it's a really good item build(though merlini will talk about how Treads Aquila Urn is always better, which frustrates me but may be something that applies to pro games where Spectre is laned better).
I'm curious about timings, because my lane nearly always gets dived under tower early game as Spectre and so I have no example games of Free farm. Assuming normal regen stout shield starting items
What is typical Radiance timing for Full wand- Power Treads - Vanguard?
For Full Wand - Phase Boots - Vanguard?
For Full Wand - Aquila - Urn?
For Full Wand - Aquila - Morbid Mask(apparently Envy runs this)?
I'm hoping someone at least has a few answers, and they may help guide my itemization decisions. Feel free to also discuss the itemizations.
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On October 16 2015 12:39 Bippzy wrote:
I see there is a lot of discussion about Vanguard Spectre, which is awesome because I think it's a really good item build(though merlini will talk about how Treads Aquila Urn is always better, which frustrates me but may be something that applies to pro games where Spectre is laned better).
I'm curious about timings, because my lane nearly always gets dived under tower early game as Spectre and so I have no example games of Free farm. Assuming normal regen stout shield starting items
What is typical Radiance timing for Full wand- Power Treads - Vanguard?
For Full Wand - Phase Boots - Vanguard?
For Full Wand - Aquila - Urn?
For Full Wand - Aquila - Morbid Mask(apparently Envy runs this)?
I'm hoping someone at least has a few answers, and they may help guide my itemization decisions. Feel free to also discuss the itemizations.
When I go phase/aquila/morbid mask I get radiance about 25 minutes or so. Though usually I go that build cause I have no space and lane and are farming solely jungle creeps.
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The build I've described earlier in the thread, phase aquila yasha radiance gets radiance usually around 24 minutes.
The arteezy build treads wand morbid-mask radiance seems to get radiance around 18-19 minutes, and I think full manta around 23 if I remember correctly. You're pretty durable with his item and skill build, you just lack some chasing potential (can't be as aggressive with your ults).
Free-farm on Spectre isn't really a thing btw unless your offlane and mid both just crushed their lanes and are already carrying. Usually you either get fucked down in lane or you get a really easy lane for the first 8 minutes and then get completely zoned off the map after that because by then they're ready to hunt you to the ends of the earth and beyond. My timings are all based off shitty pubs.
Vanguard, especially with all that other junk seems like the worst of all worlds if you aren't no-shit forced into it by a super fed chasing hero (qop, storm, tinker, maybe a riki or bh, etc). You don't need the defensive skill build arteezy runs with VG, but you don't make the most of a dagger or desolate first max either. Building VG along with treads and wand seems like an inferior version of the arteezy build. If you're just trying to cookie-cutter your way through a VG you may as well just go naked boots VG radiance with a desolate first max for farming purposes. If you aren't losing too many kill opportunities from ults relative to the arteezy build that should probably net you a 17-18 minute radiance, maybe as early as 16-- I dunno, haven't tried it.
I dunno what the best item or skill build is after the patch, but items like madness, urn, and vanguard don't seem any more desirable this patch than last. Casual morbid mask at the most seems like the only purely defensive item you need, if you elect to build defensively at all, outside of specific scenarios described before regarding a reactive vanguard.
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Some stats, not including any spell/skill upgrades, for level 8 spectre. Ordered by gold cost. Max 5 slots taken so you can carry a TP. Intangible (non-direct) bonuses listed beneath. Calculated using devilesk.com's hero calculator. Winners in each category are bolded green, losers are bolded red. Ordered by gold cost. Aimed at around the 4k gold cost.
TREADS ASSUMED ON STRENGTH. DPS IS HIGHER WHEN AGI, MANA AND MANA REGEN HIGHER WHEN INT. TREADS ARE REALLY GOOD.
NO QUELLING OR TP INCLUDED, USUALLY YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A QUELLING TOO
Wand-Cloak-Treads-PMS-Ring of Aquila:
3925 gold - 1797 Physical EHP, 1802 Magical EHP, 472 mana, 2.11 Mana Regen, 97 DPS, 340 Movement speed
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, RoA Aura
Wand-Treads-Vanguard:
4015 gold - 1728 Physical EHP, 1699 Magical EHP, 433 mana, 1.34 ManaRegen, 66 DPS, 340 Movement speed
Intangible: 40 damage block @ 75% chance
Wand-Phase-PMS-Drums: (phase and drums activated)
4105 gold - 1518 Physical EHP, 1365 Magical EHP, 550 mana, 1.7 ManaRegen, 120 DPS, 473 Movement speed
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, Drums active for allies (DPS and movement speed modified by drums active)
Wand-Phase-Urn-Ring of Aquila-PMS: (phase activated)
4140 gold - 1702 Physical EHP, 1365 Magical EHP, 472 mana, 2.84 ManaRegen, 107 DPS, 421 Movement speed
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, RoA aura, Urn heal/damage
Wand-Phase-Urn-PMS-Vit booster: (phase activated)
4230 gold - 1712 Physical EHP, 1623 Magical EHP, 433 mana, 2.01 ManaRegen, 84 DPS, 421 Movement speed
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, Urn heal/damage
Wand-Phase-PMS-Sange: (phase activated)
4305 gold - 1628 Physical EHP, 1543 Magical EHP, 433 mana, 1.34 ManaRegen, 93 DPS, 421 Movement speed
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, Sange maim
Phase-Ring of Aquila-Yasha: (phase activated)
4350 gold - 1428 Physical EHP, 1112 Magical EHP, 420 mana, 1.95 ManaRegen, 127 DPS, 456 Movement speed
Intangible: RoA aura
Arteezy Morbid build (Wand PMS Treads Morbid) not included because lifesteal is waaaaay too intangible, but basically it's 3265 gold and the worst EHP (both physical and magical) out of all of these. But given it's cheaper, that's expected.
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when farming neutrals killing the smaller creep first lowers the overall time right? with desolate damage getting more hits in? Ofc there are times where u wanna finish them off with a spectral dagger and hit the neighbour camp as well.
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On October 16 2015 13:46 Birdie wrote:
Some stats, not including any spell upgrades, for level 8 spectre. Ordered by gold cost. Max 5 slots taken so you can carry a TP. Intangible (non-direct) bonuses listed beneath. Calculated using devilesk.com's hero calculator. Winners in each category are bolded. Ordered by gold cost. Aimed at around the 4k gold cost.
Wand-Cloak-Treads-PMS-Ring of Aquila:
3925 gold - 1797 Physical EHP, 1802 Magical EHP, 472 mana, 97 DPS, 340 Movement speed
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, RoA Aura
Wand-Treads-Vanguard:
4015 gold - 1728 Physical EHP, 1699 Magical EHP, 433 mana, 66 DPS, 340 Movement speed
Intangible: 40 damage block @ 75% chance
Wand-Phase-PMS-Drums:
4105 gold - 1518 Physical EHP, 1365 Magical EHP, 550 mana, 105/120 DPS, 473 Movement speed (phased and drums)
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, Drums active for allies (DPS and movement speed modified by drums active)
Wand-Phase-Urn-Ring of Aquila-PMS:
4140 gold - 1702 Physical EHP, 1365 Magical EHP, 472 mana, 107 DPS, 421 Movement speed (phased)
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, RoA aura, Urn heal/damage
Wand-Phase-Urn-PMS-Vit booster:
4230 gold - 1712 Physical EHP, 1623 Magical EHP, 433 mana, 84 DPS, 421 Movement speed (phased)
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, Urn heal/damage
Wand-Phase-PMS-Sange:
4305 gold - 1628 Physical EHP, 1543 Magical EHP, 433 mana, 93 DPS, 421 Movement speed (phased)
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, Sange maim
With what skill build? Makes a big difference.
There's a lot of information that you've either over-simplified or omitted that make this data not that useful.
The two builds I described (which incidentally you discounted both of) are on opposite ends of the build spectrum and accomplish different things-- most of your builds do generally the same thing. You've also discounted lifesteal options altogether.
You've omitted hp regen, desolate damage, dispersion damage, I dunno what dispersion reflect level you're using, mana regen, and dagger damage/ms. If I had aquila or urn I would be using dagger on stacks and aligned camps to make use of the mana regen (and tp to fountain before ulting).
I don't see a point in building both urn and vitality or both urn and aquila. How did you choose these builds?
On October 16 2015 23:14 Shock710 wrote:
when farming neutrals killing the smaller creep first lowers the overall time right? with desolate damage getting more hits in? Ofc there are times where u wanna finish them off with a spectral dagger and hit the neighbour camp as well.
Yes. Don't waste dagger unless you've leveled it and have mana regen.
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On October 17 2015 00:27 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 23:14 Shock710 wrote:
when farming neutrals killing the smaller creep first lowers the overall time right? with desolate damage getting more hits in? Ofc there are times where u wanna finish them off with a spectral dagger and hit the neighbour camp as well. Yes. Don't waste dagger unless you've leveled it and have mana regen.
After radiance, attack the large creep first in camps with 3+ creeps. And if for some reason you max Dispersion with level 1 Desolate, the math sometimes swings in favor of keeping creeps alive to maximize Dispersion damage.
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On October 17 2015 00:27 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 13:46 Birdie wrote:
Some stats, not including any spell upgrades, for level 8 spectre. Ordered by gold cost. Max 5 slots taken so you can carry a TP. Intangible (non-direct) bonuses listed beneath. Calculated using devilesk.com's hero calculator. Winners in each category are bolded. Ordered by gold cost. Aimed at around the 4k gold cost.
Wand-Cloak-Treads-PMS-Ring of Aquila:
3925 gold - 1797 Physical EHP, 1802 Magical EHP, 472 mana, 97 DPS, 340 Movement speed
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, RoA Aura
Wand-Treads-Vanguard:
4015 gold - 1728 Physical EHP, 1699 Magical EHP, 433 mana, 66 DPS, 340 Movement speed
Intangible: 40 damage block @ 75% chance
Wand-Phase-PMS-Drums:
4105 gold - 1518 Physical EHP, 1365 Magical EHP, 550 mana, 105/120 DPS, 473 Movement speed (phased and drums)
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, Drums active for allies (DPS and movement speed modified by drums active)
Wand-Phase-Urn-Ring of Aquila-PMS:
4140 gold - 1702 Physical EHP, 1365 Magical EHP, 472 mana, 107 DPS, 421 Movement speed (phased)
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, RoA aura, Urn heal/damage
Wand-Phase-Urn-PMS-Vit booster:
4230 gold - 1712 Physical EHP, 1623 Magical EHP, 433 mana, 84 DPS, 421 Movement speed (phased)
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, Urn heal/damage
Wand-Phase-PMS-Sange:
4305 gold - 1628 Physical EHP, 1543 Magical EHP, 433 mana, 93 DPS, 421 Movement speed (phased)
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, Sange maim
With what skill build? Makes a big difference. There's a lot of information that you've either over-simplified or omitted that make this data not that useful. The two builds I described (which incidentally you discounted both of) are on opposite ends of the build spectrum and accomplish different things-- most of your builds do generally the same thing. You've also discounted lifesteal options altogether. You've omitted hp regen, desolate damage, dispersion damage, I dunno what dispersion reflect level you're using, mana regen, and dagger damage/ms. If I had aquila or urn I would be using dagger on stacks and aligned camps to make use of the mana regen (and tp to fountain before ulting). I don't see a point in building both urn and vitality or both urn and aquila. How did you choose these builds? Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 23:14 Shock710 wrote:
when farming neutrals killing the smaller creep first lowers the overall time right? with desolate damage getting more hits in? Ofc there are times where u wanna finish them off with a spectral dagger and hit the neighbour camp as well. Yes. Don't waste dagger unless you've leveled it and have mana regen.
he explains the skill build and how he chose the item build at the top of his post
i think 4411s almost always the best build tho
i like treads urn roa pms oov
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No he just says level 8 with 5 items around 4k. That doesn't indicate skill build and there are other options around 4k he omitted.
I'm not sold on it yet, but I was practicing arteezy's build and variations on it to see if it was worth running, and while I'm not convinced it's better, it certainly is viable. His skill build was 2-2-3-1 at 8. I ran 1-2-4-1 also with the same item build and I at least haven't found something that feels much worse than anything else. I need more games before I can really compare my old build to his or my variations on it. Need to play with skill builds more because of the patch.
Why do you like urn with aquila? I don't understand that item build at all. If you want to chase the enemy, why not grab phase and not have to waste an item slot on oov? Ideally you're spending the least money possible on the most efficient early items to get you to relic. I guess a better question is why you reject alternative builds over that one?
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SoCal8910 Posts
IMO 1 point of dagger is sufficient at lvl 7/8 this patch only if you're getting phase boots. otherwise, you have no way of catching anyone quickly before things can turn on you. I still think the value in desolate outweighs the extra points in dispersion in most scenarios because by the time you really want to fight, you'll be well past lvl 7/8. the patch is still young though and her skills are all looking like they're in a pretty good place so we could wind up seeing a variety of choices become viable.
as for the RoA and urn, I think you're wasting 1k gold that could be something else especially since you're already getting treads too. you're not going to be spamming dagger, so you don't need that much mana regen and you're also picking up treads, so you will have some stats to go alongside the urn..roa is, IMO, unnecessary.
even if you pick up phase, I think that getting an urn AND RoA is pretty unnecessary because you're investing 1k gold into a small item you'll plan on replacing later on. boots, urn, roa, oov, tp, PMS is already 6 slots and you're not picking up a QB or a wand here, too.
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@Nightmarjoo, please read more carefully. I mentioned that "not including spell upgrades". No skill build specified, in other words.
I chose the builds for my own interest, and placed them here in the hopes that others would find them interesting. However, given your apparent interest, I have placed your build in the list. It is the worst in the most categories of any of them, but it does win in DPS. It also has the least intangible benefits. At your request I have also added mana regen.
I discounted lifesteal builds because lifesteal is so vastly intangible compared to other relatively minor buffs such as damage block and auras that there is no meaningful comparison to be made. However, I have placed the RTZ Morbid build in summary form at the bottom of the list.
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On October 17 2015 07:37 Birdie wrote:
@Nightmarjoo, please read more carefully. I mentioned that "not including spell upgrades". No skill build specified, in other words.
I chose the builds for my own interest, and placed them here in the hopes that others would find them interesting. However, given your apparent interest, I have placed your build in the list. It is the worst in the most categories of any of them, but it does win in DPS. It also has the least intangible benefits. At your request I have also added mana regen.
I discounted lifesteal builds because lifesteal is so vastly intangible compared to other relatively minor buffs such as damage block and auras that there is no meaningful comparison to be made. However, I have placed the RTZ Morbid build in summary form at the bottom of the list.
Ok! Sorry if I'm coming across as a dick; I'm not trying to be one; but I was both short on time earlier and I've just been working hard on Spectre for a while now, and I want to make sure the thread doesn't leave behind the stuff I've worked on, both so that if I am right that other players can learn and so that if it turns out I'm wrong that other posters can accurately debate skill/item builds and tactics so that I can learn. And of course I think oversimplification abstracts the data we're using to debate with to such an extent so as to make it not useful, which defeats the point of debating anything at all.
I've been quiet in the thread since arteezy's build was recorded, since I've been trying to figure out how much merit it has, and in what scenarios it's advisable or inadvisable, and I dunno if I have an answer yet. A big part of that comes from the patch too, which had unexpected buffs to a hero I already thought was quite strong.
Can't tell if the dispersion buff means arteezy's build has more merit or if the buff means his build is even less necessary. Can't tell if the desolate buff supports or disfavours his build either-- on the one hand having more levels accelerates farm rate more than ever before, but on the other hand just 1-2 levels go farther than before since it now impacts farm rate.
My experience with arteezy's build leaves me unsure on how much I like it. On the one hand, compared to any other straight radiance rush build it's the most comfortable I've ever used, but like all the other radiance rush builds I've run it still feels uncomfortable as far as fighting goes following the radiance until you have a full manta. When I build the yasha before radiance I feel quite strong once I finish the radiance, but when I rush the radiance I don't feel as strong after completing yasha. Maybe part of it is I usually run the yasha build with phase but the radiance rush with treads, but when I ran treads with my normal build I didn't really feel worse off, however that scenario does have the least sample size for me.
The other side to it is I dunno what the best skill build to run with the item build is: I know arteezy was going 1-1-1 into 2-2-1 into 2-2-4 (though I reject his idiosyncratic stats levels after that point), and as I said earlier I also ran it with 1-1-1 into 1-1-4 into 1-4-4, but I don't really have a consensus on which of those options are best. It could even be that the item build works fine with a more normal skill build, 2-4-1 or 4-2-1 or some shit; I dunno yet, still need more games.
I will say that the build is surprisingly effective at achieving early ult kills in spite of having inferior ms differential and desolate proc damage, though it does trail off a bit into the midgame. It is nice being able to dive towers harder thanks to greater dispersion (and doing more damage on the target thanks to the dispersion change, damage that you didn't really have with last patch's dispersion, especially at level 1).
I need to go back to my old build though to see how it compares this patch-- all my info and numbers are based on last patch for that build.
Now as for the two builds you've added to your list, I think there are more "intangible" effects than you're accounting for. First, the reason I was so anal about inquiring into skill build is I feel the skill build strongly changes how the item build will perform, and changes which items you choose to build or not build.
First, both builds I've been running include quelling blade, which accelerates farm quite a bit, both by improving damage on creeps and by providing tree chopping so that you can more easily move through camps without using Dagger. So while quelling is slot inefficient, it's much much more cost efficient (and simply cheaper) than the slots you're calculating for. Furthermore it seems like the point of your math is to guide which items you choose purely with regard to fighting, but fighting as an activity takes up the smallest percent of your time, so it's important to consider how these items effect your farm rate.
So back to skill builds: how many levels you have in each skill is going to change both how quickly you farm and how well you fight. Discounting "spell effects" greatly skews the data from realistic scenarios. With lower levels in Dagger you're getting farther and farther away from your paper-dps, because you're not sustaining auto attacks on the enemy at your actual attack speed. With higher levels in Desolate you're frequently doing far more damage than your dps calculations suggest. And then obviously differing levels in Dispersion change your EHP, even though you've only provided one value per item build-- with what skill level in Dispersion are those calculated?
So my old build maxes Dagger first with 2 in Desolate. In conjunction with phase and yasha, not only is my paper-dps higher, but my ability to sustain that dps is much greater on average than any other build due to the higher average MS. Since my durability comes mostly from agility-armour, pms damage block, and lvl 1 dispersion my EHP may be lower on paper than these builds that blow money on extra hp, the calculations miss the point that I have increased surviveability even with less innate durability-- the increased MS from Dagger levels and Yasha (and phase active relative to the treads builds) make it much easier to avoid damage by getting out of range or out of vision. So your data only accounts for the damage you are taking, not the damage you aren't taking.
Furthermore another "intangible" benefit of my build is the point of the build itself: that it gives Spectre's team (to potentially include Spectre herself) more gold and experience on average by merit of creating her own space (for her to use to farm and for her team to use to get into a stronger position to give Spectre more space later to catch up with, as is necessary). By discounting surviveability from evading the enemy, discounting surviveability from removing enemies sooner (and thus removing the enemy team's capacity to deal damage to Spectre), and discounting Spectre's capacity to actually execute and maintain the paper-dps, you're really missing everything that makes the build relevant and viable. I didn't construct my build from data, I constructed it from emperical experimentation. Your calculations can't keep track of the things my build does accomplish.
Arteezy's build also has intangible benefits you aren't accounting for. You do point out that it has the cheapest 5 slots of all these builds, but I think erroneously conclude that it also has the worst EHP. Since his build is run with a specific skill build, if your calculations use a Dispersion level under 4 your conclusion is already inaccurate. Furthermore lifesteal's increase to EHP is not intangible. If you can compare the DPS of these builds even knowingly discounting Desolate levels and the build's capacity (on average) to sustain that DPS then you can with the same rate of abstraction from reality calculate (i.e. on a whole, estimate) the EHP lifesteal provides. Plug in lifesteal % with dps, and you can say that in a vacuum the hp gained per second is a permanent increase to EHP. Throw in an average enemy armour value (just grab average neutral creep armour value if you want) and you have something tangible.
Furthermore I think relegating the fact that it's the cheapest efficient 5slot to a footnote is also misleading. The point of the build is to consistently finish Radiance on a specific timing, without wasting time and money on items you don't need, without too greatly compromising her capacity to help her team prior to Radiance completion. This is another reason I asked where you came up with those builds, because I didn't see anything that most of those builds accomplished relative to the builds I've described. The exception is the phase drum build: it's similar to my old build, and that isn't a coincidence. I have since rejected that particular build, but it was the popular ancestor my approach to Spectre and my build evolved from. So what I'm getting at is: your calculations ask "what is the most cost effective set of 5 or fewer items we can build that cost approximately 4k with regard to dps, EHP, and movement speed". I'm not saying your calculations are wrong at answering this question, I'm saying it's the wrong question to ask.
The question the two builds I've considered the most answer is "what's the most effective way to complete a Radiance". Efficiency is a factor, not a component of the question. My build may not require 5 slots. One thing I could not create a conclusive answer for was "is the aquila necessary?". I can easily answer what the aquila is useful for, but I have to recognize that just because it's useful doesn't make it necessary. So are all of the items you listed at least situationally useful? Yes, but some are much more likely to be useful than others. Are all of the items you listed even situationally necessary? No. I'm not saying you can't make use of an Urn, Sange, Cloak, Vitality Booster, or Vanguard, and regarding the last item have pointed out uncommon (but plausible) scenarios I think VG is absolutely actually necessary in, but on average none of those items are essential.
Is a Yasha essential? No, but in a build that tries to effectively obtain a Radiance in an adverse scenario where you are likely to have teammates unable to create the space you need to just afk-farm a Radiance or in adverse scenarios where being able to fight or effectively flee from the enemy is necessary I find it outcompetes its alternatives, especially since it, unlike most of the items you have chosen to use, is a part of Spectre's overall item progression (as a component of Manta).
So if I ult into a fight out of my cozy jungle and fail to kill someone, leaving them at sub 150 hp, I don't come out of the fight or game thinking "damn, if only I had an Urn with at least one charge, I could've killed them". Instead I conclude that perhaps I didn't execute the fight properly, or perhaps I shouldn't have ulted and joined the fight at all, perhaps I chose the wrong target altogether, or perhaps I simply stayed in the fight chasing a target I couldn't hope to kill and wasted time that could've been spent heading back to a farm source or farming creeps at or near my new location. So of course if an enemy with less than 150 hp is running away from me and neither me nor my teammates can secure that kill, having an Urn with a charge is going to actually secure a kill and thus gain xp and gold, but likely the only reason you pursued that kill that hard was because you had the Urn at all, not because you chase all heroes that hard.
So finding the item useful does not mean that item was a good choice, and certainly does not mean it was the best choice. Using math to say that an Urn was worth the investment because it both explicitly saved your life (you survived with hp equal to less than the EHP the +6 str the Urn provided or thanks to the increased EHP a well-timed Urn charge provided) and killed an enemy is misleading. Even if you can point out that the gold obtained from obtaining the kill in addition to the gold you failed to lose from dying (if you had nothing to quickbuy because you're working on Radiance, or even if you "lost" no gold because you bought TPs you didn't need, you've still "lost" gold towards Radiance-- it would have been delayed by that amount of gold) exceeded the cost of the Urn itself, it still does not mean the Urn was the best use of that gold. This is because in the scenario where you didn't have that Urn, you should have made decisions based on what you did have-- so you wouldn't have wasted time chasing a kill you could only secure with Urn and you wouldn't have placed yourself in such a disadvantage position such that the raw hp or urn healing was necessary to stay alive. Therefore in that scenario you would say that not buying the Urn was better because you now completed Radiance 875 gold sooner. Of course that also is not quite accurate-- the justification can be used either way. What matters and should guide your item choice is what items are necessary on average (or per each certain scenario, either based on specific scenario-based reactions or based off average circumstances in particular themes of scenarios).
So look again at both builds I've described. Arteezy's build is a bare-bones strategy for rushing Radiance. Discount PMS because it's omnipresent in builds that don't involve a Vanguard. Discount Treads because it has about the same cost as Phase, and one or the other are omnipresent in every build. Discount Wand because it's literally in every build you've listed (except mine, incidentally). So we're left with 2 item slots: quelling, literally the cheapest possible slot, and morbid mask, which is cheaper than every other option we've discussed except for Cloak (which is only situationally ever relevant) and Urn (which is barely cheaper, and situationally greatly loses value (if you can't gain charges, or if you're fucking one of your supports by either preventing them from building one or by making their Urn considerably less useful). The morbid mask is always useful because you will always be hitting things. Perhaps there'll be a fight where you only used ult and Dagger, such that the morbid mask didn't change your efficacy in the fight, but it's plausible that the higher % hp you've retained from fighting is what encouraged you to participate in that fight, so you can still justify its construction in a brief scenario where you in fact did not hit something.
The dynamic this build is running is combining a Dispersion first max damage reflect in conjunction with PMS damage block in conjunction with stats hp and armour in conjunction with lifesteal, for the least possible cost. Items that give you a greater flat increase in hp are not inherently superior. Barring Vanguard and Urn (only if you have excess charges you can afford to use to heal yourself), none of the other options provide any kind of hp regen. This means that even the Vitality Booster option, which fairly cost effectively provides you with a nice flat hp bonus, is not necessarily providing more durability or surviveability relative to the cheaper lifesteal option, especially if you purchase it while running a skill build using fewer points in Dispersion. Even if you use for example the build which included both aquila and urn, you're providing a combination of hp, armour, and situational hp sustain for inferior slot efficiency and an increased cost. There's another cost though, by not being able to carry both TP and Quelling you're losing out on the very powerful and cost efficient farm acceleration quelling provides. Is the trade worth it? With this hit to slot and cost efficiency are you getting a good trade from having the mana regen to make greater (more frequent) use of a Dagger first max? By then running the skill build that has the most synergy with your item build, is your EHP even actually higher with the Urn hp and Aquila armour provided you're missing three levels in Dispersion (at level 8 after branching from 2-2-1)? You can do the math if you want, but I strongly suspect it's an inferior trade on average (the difference being opportunity cost in arteezy's build from lacking Urn nukes).
On average I suspect Arteezy's build obtains a Radiance significantly quicker than any of the builds you originally listed, disproportionate to the simple difference in cost. So then the question is are your builds able to create a significant amount of greater farming space disproportionate to its relative increase in cost (and therefore flat increase in time necessary to complete Radiance). I don't necessarily have that answer for you, but my empirical data obtained from playing Spectre at a decent skill level suggests they do not. However more importantly, your calculations do not help you find that answer, which is why I maintain your consistent oversimplifications abstract too much from finding useful conclusions.
For myself, I'm trying to empirically answer the question of whether or not the increased gold cost of my build relative to arteezy's build is worth the increase in kill potential and space-making capacity it provides. I also don't have that answer, but it is one of my current projects. I can at least say with confidence that having tried the builds you provided above (or variations of) that I strongly believe my build is superior to all of those-- that indeed the gold cost increase (although since my item choices are either more slot efficient or more progression-efficient (I don't need to sell the Yasha slot until like 70 minutes in the game when I'm working on a perfect 6slot) that my build is actually less cost inefficient than your math suggests, since I'm selling fewer things and selling them later in the game) is more than worth the relative space-creating and fight-capacity potential the build confers.
Furthermore I'm also working on both establishing whether or not phase boots are necessary in my build (since treads are the stronger boot the longer the game goes, both as far as providing flat dps and from the collective benefits tread-swapping provide) and whether or not aquila is necessary (it certainly has strong synergy with my fight tempo, overall farming and fighting tactics, and with the Dagger first max skill build, but omitting the Aquila doesn't actually change any of those things, since my build uses fountain TPs prior to ults, so the only difference other than the flat combat stats the item provides is in the total number of Daggers I can use in the jungle, it's however many fewer I need to maintain 75 mana at all times when my ult is up or nearing coming off cd-- so I don't know if it's worth the 1k investment).
So I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do think I have answers for (or at least better questions than) your data. If there's some information I've omitted that makes something I'm taking for objective truth not make sense, it's probably something I've written earlier in this thread, but I can clarify any points I have improperly supported or elaborated on.
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In terms of RTZ's build, I'm sure the Morbid Mask is primarily so that he can sustain his HP while farming, far more so than gaining HP while he fights. And in terms of the statistics I provided, I consider the number of hits you pull off in a fight (and hence EHP gained from lifesteal) to be an unknowable number, which is why I didn't include any lifesteal builds in detail. It's certainly not the most optimal fighting item to be getting, and I HIGHLY doubt that's why RTZ gets it.
Because you seem particularly worried about skill build, I can redo the table but with a particular skill build. Which skill build would you have me do? 1-4-2-1 perhaps? I was using 0-0-0-0 previously. In terms of objective data, I don't think there is any value in recalculating DPS because the increased DPS from desolate and dispersion is dependent on a variety of in-game factors. But I can re-calculate the EHP. It is worth mentioning that increased dispersion is percent-based, and as such the winners in each category for EHP should not change. Same for if it were possibly to calculate DPS with desolate. This is why I didn't bother including skill-build; assuming every item build used the same skill build, there would be no change in the relative position of each item build. Only the total numbers would change, not the winner in each category.
In terms of Movement speed translating into more survivability, that is also intangible as it is dependent on in-game factors. I can give the raw movement speed numbers but it is for each person to decide themselves whether they value movement speed, DPS, or EHP most (and gold cost).
As noted in my post, it is assumed that you will be carrying a quelling blade over a TP scroll and using ultimate to travel into fights. As quelling blade is a farming item (and more or less ubiquitous), I didn't bother factoring a second creep-DPS into the equation. That is easily calculated by hand with the given DPS numbers.
I should note that you seem to be looking for an "optimal build". While I am not trying to argue any particular point with my data, I would say that you should consider every game what is necessary for winning that game, rather than always trying to use your "optimal build". If a game requires you to get Vanguard, Treads, Wand, Vit Booster because there is so much fighting going on that it is impossible for you to farm a radiance without dying, then do that. If you have absolute free farm, skip tank items and go straight for radiance! My post merely points out gold cost and what you achieve with your gold; it doesn't make any decisions for you. It doesn't factor in the likelihood of an item being sold later, nor the amount you are fighting, nor the intangible item benefits, nor teammates or any other uncontrollable factors. It is just the hard numbers.
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On October 17 2015 11:38 ChunderBoy wrote:
tl;dr???
follow ur heart
dont let society hold u back
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urn is better on this hero than morbid for sustain
if u find urself spending more time hitting neuts than actually having enough urn charges/being involved in teamfights, then you shouldn't have picked spectre in the first place
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 17 2015 13:20 woojaekeem wrote:
urn is better on this hero than morbid for sustain
if u find urself spending more time hitting neuts than actually having enough urn charges/being involved in teamfights, then you shouldn't have picked spectre in the first place
Except that sometimes the game just goes the way that disallows to collect enough urn charges to calmly farm neutrals (you need to get urn charge or more every minute for that). Morbid easily does.
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On October 17 2015 13:20 woojaekeem wrote:
urn is better on this hero than morbid for sustain
if u find urself spending more time hitting neuts than actually having enough urn charges/being involved in teamfights, then you shouldn't have picked spectre in the first place
why do you say that? at least with the way i play spectre, im either jungle farming or ganking in between laning and late game. i don't find myself to be very crucial to a teamfight other than to assure a kill or clean up after an engagement.
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On October 17 2015 14:58 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 13:20 woojaekeem wrote:
urn is better on this hero than morbid for sustain
if u find urself spending more time hitting neuts than actually having enough urn charges/being involved in teamfights, then you shouldn't have picked spectre in the first place Except that sometimes the game just goes the way that disallows to collect enough urn charges to calmly farm neutrals (you need to get urn charge or more every minute for that). Morbid easily does.
yea and if that happens 9/10 times u just hsouldn't ahve picked spectrein the first place
she isn't the hero for afk rr sit in the jungle cut waves farm games
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On October 17 2015 11:20 Birdie wrote:
In terms of RTZ's build, I'm sure the Morbid Mask is primarily so that he can sustain his HP while farming, far more so than gaining HP while he fights. And in terms of the statistics I provided, I consider the number of hits you pull off in a fight (and hence EHP gained from lifesteal) to be an unknowable number, which is why I didn't include any lifesteal builds in detail. It's certainly not the most optimal fighting item to be getting, and I HIGHLY doubt that's why RTZ gets it.
Because you seem particularly worried about skill build, I can redo the table but with a particular skill build. Which skill build would you have me do? 1-4-2-1 perhaps? I was using 0-0-0-0 previously. In terms of objective data, I don't think there is any value in recalculating DPS because the increased DPS from desolate and dispersion is dependent on a variety of in-game factors. But I can re-calculate the EHP. It is worth mentioning that increased dispersion is percent-based, and as such the winners in each category for EHP should not change. Same for if it were possibly to calculate DPS with desolate. This is why I didn't bother including skill-build; assuming every item build used the same skill build, there would be no change in the relative position of each item build. Only the total numbers would change, not the winner in each category.
In terms of Movement speed translating into more survivability, that is also intangible as it is dependent on in-game factors. I can give the raw movement speed numbers but it is for each person to decide themselves whether they value movement speed, DPS, or EHP most (and gold cost).
As noted in my post, it is assumed that you will be carrying a quelling blade over a TP scroll and using ultimate to travel into fights. As quelling blade is a farming item (and more or less ubiquitous), I didn't bother factoring a second creep-DPS into the equation. That is easily calculated by hand with the given DPS numbers.
I should note that you seem to be looking for an "optimal build". While I am not trying to argue any particular point with my data, I would say that you should consider every game what is necessary for winning that game, rather than always trying to use your "optimal build". If a game requires you to get Vanguard, Treads, Wand, Vit Booster because there is so much fighting going on that it is impossible for you to farm a radiance without dying, then do that. If you have absolute free farm, skip tank items and go straight for radiance! My post merely points out gold cost and what you achieve with your gold; it doesn't make any decisions for you. It doesn't factor in the likelihood of an item being sold later, nor the amount you are fighting, nor the intangible item benefits, nor teammates or any other uncontrollable factors. It is just the hard numbers.
Yeah obviously morbid is for jungle sustain, but my point is since if you're not using your mana on dagger to farm you're going straight from the jungle to the teamfight via your ult, so maintaining full hp at all times the way his build does ensures he's always ready for a fight, whereas any other build may need to tp fountain to restore hp before joining the fight or accept that they're entering the fight without 100% hp. Therefore if they're using an item slot for an hp item but not entering a fight with 100% hp they are not making the most of that item. All of those builds will lose hp in the jungle except someone whose urn gets a large excess of charges except for arteezy's build. And he specifically maintains 100% hp by using lifesteal in conjunction with first max dispersion and pms damage block.
I'm worried about skill build because it changes how your item build performs. Arteezy's build without max dispersion would not keep 100% hp at all times. That doesn't mean his item build would inherently fail without that skill build, but it would change the complete dynamic involved. I don't do the same skill build for every item build, so comparing different item builds with the same skill build won't necessarily capture their differences accurately. I would for sure not make the most out of my item build if I were to run it with Arteezy's skill build. Gauging the worth of a build is about predicting its average potential effectiveness-- an item build in conjunction with a skill build it lacks synergy with will have on average a lower potential effectiveness. You say factoring in the skill build won't change your data in a meaningful way, but that's because you put so many important variables into the "intangible" category and ignore them. So while yes if you ignore most of the game then by definition if you change any of the things you're ignoring you won't change your results, but that doesn't mean they aren't relevant.
Quelling over TP is ok only if you aren't using Dagger to farm and if you aren't taking much damage in the jungle, because then you guarantee you have 100% mana at all times to ensure you can ult and dagger 1-2 times in a fight/chase. If you're using mana while farming and/or are getting low hp then you have to have a TP to visit fountain just before ulting to ensure you can make the most of the ult (unless it's literally for a haunt illusion to lasthit a hero).
The issue is you don't have perfect information, and how the laning phase goes doesn't necessarily educate your item choices. Just because most builds are viable doesn't mean most builds are the best options in a vacuum, and while every single build has at least one scenario where it's the no-shit best option, most builds are not applicable to most scenarios. Now obviously you don't play in a vacuum, but since you have imperfect knowledge you have to make a choice based on your limited information. Furthermore you should try and choose an item build that fits into how you have skilled or how you will have skilled upon specific item timings.
There isn't one optimum build, but for sure there are a limited number of almost-ideal cookie cutter builds from which you adapt. Just because there isn't an optimum build doesn't mean you shouldn't try and find the best solutions to most scenarios.
The biggest factor which prompted me to explore and settle on my old build was that in scenarios where I had free-farm in my safelane and saved up to 2k+ gold on boots and opted to try and rush Relic asap instead of building fighting/durability items is that very frequently the map became entirely off limits shortly after, such that my actual Radiance timing was no better than if I had made other items first. Alternatively the Radiance may have come a minute or two sooner, but that I had vastly inferior levels, and/or that my team was in a far inferior position as result. Trying to rush out the Radiance was significantly reducing the number of viable opportunities I had available to ult on. I played around with many different early and midgame items and settled on what I've described before, for the reasons described before. So I'm trying to help other players not fall into the same trap. There's a similar discussion using antimage as an example in the "carry tips" thread that's currently ongoing, talking about how the best way to put early freefarm to your advantage is to build self-sustaining items instead of trying to force-rush a battlefury. I think similar principles are in play with spectre.
I'm not sure if we're arguing anything btw. Is there something I'm saying that you blatantly disagree with?
On October 17 2015 13:20 woojaekeem wrote:
urn is better on this hero than morbid for sustain
if u find urself spending more time hitting neuts than actually having enough urn charges/being involved in teamfights, then you shouldn't have picked spectre in the first place
Urn is an unreliable form of overall sustain. The arteezy build capitalizes on very nearly just as many ult opportunities as more aggressive item builds, it simply lacks the extreme chasing capacity. You aren't only afk-farming with morbid mask-- you're just using it to guarantee you're at 100% hp at all times. You're using urn charges on enemies to secure kills you can't chase down, on allies to allow them to stay and push (since they inevitably push harder than you before radiance), on yourself after escaping death, and on yourself with excess charges when you're safely farming but taking damage from a nasty camp (or after a series of camps just prior to your next ult to make yourself combat-ready). Therefore farming sustain is only a luxury for excess urn charges, if you even amass them. Other than in scenarios where your team is carrying dominating without you, you shouldn't be getting a huge number of charges. The only other way you would be collecting many charges well-after a fight is if you're using them extremely selfishly, in which case you've really fucked your team by preventing them (most likely a support) from buying one (and making the most of it).
Your ult is on a 2 minute cd, so if we assume a fight and the ensuing chase take 20 seconds total, and it takes another 10 seconds to get to a farm source, you have 90 seconds to farm before the next ult. That means farming is taking up at least 3 times as much time as fighting. If you're forced to use fountain to regen after buying the urn it's worthless, so it had better be sustaining you for all 120 of those seconds. I think scenarios where that actually turns out to happen are unicorn-rare.
On October 17 2015 11:38 ChunderBoy wrote:
tl;dr???
tl;dr is I like these two builds much more than everything else he wrote, but don't know which is better on average:
4-2-1-1 PMS quelling phase aquila yasha radiance manta; the aquila is possibly skippable, and the skill build might need to be changed with the new patch (probably favouring desolate?)
2-2-4-1 PMS quelling wand treads morbid radiance manta; the skill build might need to be changed
On October 17 2015 15:27 woojaekeem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 14:58 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 17 2015 13:20 woojaekeem wrote:
urn is better on this hero than morbid for sustain
if u find urself spending more time hitting neuts than actually having enough urn charges/being involved in teamfights, then you shouldn't have picked spectre in the first place Except that sometimes the game just goes the way that disallows to collect enough urn charges to calmly farm neutrals (you need to get urn charge or more every minute for that). Morbid easily does. yea and if that happens 9/10 times u just hsouldn't ahve picked spectrein the first place she isn't the hero for afk rr sit in the jungle cut waves farm games
When your ult isn't up you should be farming. When your ult is up you should be looking for advantageous fights. It's that simple. Just because there's a moment in the game where you can't immediately start some shit when your ult is off cd doesn't mean the pick is bad.
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nightmarejoo I'm gonna be honest, I'm not reading a single thing in those walls of text and I'd be surprised if too many other people were either.
Conciseness and clarity matters sometimes.
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Well when I write short comments people misunderstand what I'm saying. So I clarify and elaborate on literally everything in a very thorough manner to ensure there's no remaining confusion, or at least so I can figure out what the confusion is based on subsequent comments.
I just have put a lot of time and thought into Spectre, and don't want the nuances I've found to be overlooked in oversimplifications.
If I thought I knew everything I would just write a guide, which would be thorough but with more effort towards achieving a concise product. But I don't yet, so I'm hoping I can learn from forum discussion in conjunction with the games I have time to play until I feel confident enough to finish a guide.
If there's actual interest I can try and break down my big posts into a series of tl;drs, but if I'm talking to the wall no matter what I won't waste my time until I'm confident I can put out a quality guide.
I appreciate the honesty though.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 17 2015 15:27 woojaekeem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 14:58 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 17 2015 13:20 woojaekeem wrote:
urn is better on this hero than morbid for sustain
if u find urself spending more time hitting neuts than actually having enough urn charges/being involved in teamfights, then you shouldn't have picked spectre in the first place Except that sometimes the game just goes the way that disallows to collect enough urn charges to calmly farm neutrals (you need to get urn charge or more every minute for that). Morbid easily does. yea and if that happens 9/10 times u just hsouldn't ahve picked spectrein the first place she isn't the hero for afk rr sit in the jungle cut waves farm games
Once again, she is not the kind of hero to dive towers for prolonged periods of time either, so her urn charges collection might just be limited to getting those with reality in random ganks/teamfights. And that might easily not be enough to farm, especially if you want to have some urn charges for offensive use as well.
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vangurad -> rad -> solar crest
assume enemy team won't build mkb for awhile, i.e. no mkb component by the time i buy solar crest.
good or not good? I feel solar crest combined with rad actually give the most EHP.
but no dispersion dmg though, that really sucks...
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If you have vanguard you don't need another purely defensive item. In 99% of scenarios you want manta or heart after radiance. The manta is better, but sometimes you need heart. The strength of heart isn't just hp, it's because she very effectively can disengage and reengage to make the most of heart regen. Then there's the added bonus of turning that extra hp into more dispersion damage over time. Also since most of your damage is magical or pure you can't make the most out of the negative armour from using crest active offensively. Also remember the radiance burn also already encourages them to build mkb if it's not really out of their way in item progression.
Admittedly I've never gone medallion on her before, so I dunno how effective it is at improving farm rate. It provides fewer total benefits than most other cheap item slots so it's probably not worth it as an initial purchase. If it was then maybe you could better justify finishing the solar crest. The other issue though is if you make vanguard you really shouldn't spend your money on anything after finishing it until you get radiance; so if you went medallion first the vanguard doesn't really help you make use of the medallion, but if you went vanguard first you shouldn't make the medallion after.
tl;dr not good
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You say factoring in the skill build won't change your data in a meaningful way, but that's because you put so many important variables into the "intangible" category and ignore them.
I don't ignore them, but their value is not measurable in a discrete manner, so there is no point in placing them in the rest of the table in quite the same manner. I still note them so people can be aware. My table is not meant to convince anyone of anything, but rather present the information in a form that people can easily peruse and decide for themselves what they want.
The data I have presented is as limited as I want it, and that's fine. It shows nothing more nor less than what it shows, and conclusions to be drawn from it are up to the person who is observing it. It is not an attack on your build nor a defence of any of the others, but mere observation.
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i mean if u guys are arguing sustain im sure roh is one of the best items u can make it into a pipe or refresher later on anyway and pipe owns on spectre this patch u disperse the magic barrier 0 dmg u take too
or u can get urn if u think ure gonna get charges
i wudnt go morbid mask over roh ever
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On October 17 2015 17:02 evanthebouncy! wrote:
vangurad -> rad -> solar crest
assume enemy team won't build mkb for awhile, i.e. no mkb component by the time i buy solar crest.
good or not good? I feel solar crest combined with rad actually give the most EHP.
but no dispersion dmg though, that really sucks...
no coz just a radiance doesnt force ppl into mkbs if u get radiance and butterfly or solarcrest then u force them into mkbs which sucks for u, u also need a manta somewhere early coz its the counter to silver edge and a silver edged spectre is a dead spectre
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Missing data point:
Wand-Phase-PMS-Drums: (phase activated, drums NOT activated)
4105 gold - 1518 Physical EHP, 1365 Magical EHP, 550 mana, 1.7 ManaRegen, 105 DPS, 439 Movement speed
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, Drums aura for allies
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What are you suppose to do with the morbid mask? Jungle? Also if you really need an roh to sustain in lane it might be better to get urn and try to kill the aggressive laner or go for other kills to relieve pressure.
I think a mango (maybe even 2?!) is pretty good to shurg off some casual harass, and emergency mana can come in handy trying to get that extra kill or escaping a gank. Think you're slot-limited early though. TP/boots/urn + basi(aquila)/stick(wand)/pms/quelling so 2 mangos are hard to fit in.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On October 17 2015 23:46 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 17:02 evanthebouncy! wrote:
vangurad -> rad -> solar crest
assume enemy team won't build mkb for awhile, i.e. no mkb component by the time i buy solar crest.
good or not good? I feel solar crest combined with rad actually give the most EHP.
but no dispersion dmg though, that really sucks...
no coz just a radiance doesnt force ppl into mkbs if u get radiance and butterfly or solarcrest then u force them into mkbs which sucks for u, u also need a manta somewhere early coz its the counter to silver edge and a silver edged spectre is a dead spectre
Manta is pretty important on this hero for a bazillion reasons too.
Would you ever pick up a bkb instead of manta ? Or is the item just too damn good on her?
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On October 17 2015 23:49 Buckyman wrote:
Missing data point:
Wand-Phase-PMS-Drums: (phase activated, drums NOT activated)
4105 gold - 1518 Physical EHP, 1365 Magical EHP, 550 mana, 1.7 ManaRegen, 105 DPS, 439 Movement speed
Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, Drums aura for allies
Fair enough, I was mostly putting up the data for in-fight information, during which you're going to be able to have drums active on, but for farming the above is useful information. I actually quite like the look of that particular combo if I'm going to spend in the 4k realm before radiance.
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On October 18 2015 05:55 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 23:46 ChunderBoy wrote:On October 17 2015 17:02 evanthebouncy! wrote:
vangurad -> rad -> solar crest
assume enemy team won't build mkb for awhile, i.e. no mkb component by the time i buy solar crest.
good or not good? I feel solar crest combined with rad actually give the most EHP.
but no dispersion dmg though, that really sucks...
no coz just a radiance doesnt force ppl into mkbs if u get radiance and butterfly or solarcrest then u force them into mkbs which sucks for u, u also need a manta somewhere early coz its the counter to silver edge and a silver edged spectre is a dead spectre Manta is pretty important on this hero for a bazillion reasons too. Would you ever pick up a bkb instead of manta ? Or is the item just too damn good on her?
Instead of manta? Never. In addition to manta? Situationally maybe.
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what happened to diffusal... is this not a thing anymore with spectre?
Like after radiance I get you gotta tank up first through manta/heart, then diffusal?
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United States47024 Posts
Diffu's ok, it's just situational because it's pretty slot-inefficient and by 3rd major item that starts to matter.
It's a lot more appealing if you're going Refresher, both for the obvious reason of being the best way of increasing Haunt damage, but also because going Refresher means you cap out slots later since you if you get to 6 items, you put Refresher on Courier and get another item before selling Diffusal.
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Good to know about Diffusal, I was wondering about that as well. Seems like a forgotten item on her at the moment.
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1-1-4 build with pms hood lmao
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I am still going Diffusal as my 3rd - 4th choice usually as I rush Refresher a lot.
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just want to share my skill and item build for spectre.
Level 7 = 2-4-0-1 (my first priority is to max out my desolate 'cause it's really good right now that it works on creeps and neutrals. and when i maxed out my 1st and 2nd, thats when only i level my dispersion. why? well imo, dispersion doesn't do well in early game especially when your not going for a heavy stat item and opting for a fast radiance)
as for my item routine:
Poor man's shield and a tango for starting -> Ring of Health -> boots of speed -> Ring of Aquila
->Phase boots ->Yasha ->Radiance (usually 24 to 30mins)-> Manta -> Heart/Skaddi/Bfly/Bkb/Ref orb (it depends on the situation)
*i really like rushing that ROH just for the regen ONLY (always not going for that vanguard/crimson though). great for sustaining my lane and just suits spectre for its early game passive playstyle.
edit: sorry for my english, not that good speaker of it
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Well Radiance is a must have these days, with the addition of the evasion it makes Spectre really powerful, but after you get Radiance you need to tank up, you then have damage and team fight, but you lack HP, so you are forced to go tanky item like heart. After that Manta is just too good to pass, you essentially deal 180 pure damage with your illusions, you get some split push, you get silence and other debuffs removed and you get faster attack and move speed with it.
Its still good as a 4th item if there is need.
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SoCal8910 Posts
OK so I was talking in the guide thread (oops accidentally pressed post, h/o)
about spectre's build order and realized that you could do the following with the juggling of items..let me know what you guys think
pick up an early basillius. a little armor and a little damage, but more importantly helps with pushing the offlane t1 to secure your jungle.
once you've secured the jungle, you have the option to get an RoA orrrrr
you can dismantle the basi for the armor component and turn that into an iron talon with the QB you undoubtedly picked up earlier.
you can also use the sages mask to make your urn of shadows.
then the rest is up to you. thoughts on whether or not this makes sense to do? are you wasting time if you already have the basi instead of just upgrading to ROA?
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My concern is that you're getting the Urn so you want to participate in kills, but you'd be doing so with nothing item-wise to help you deal damage. Compared to RoA you're missing 9 agility and 9 damage. Yeah you can jump in with your ult regardless and after you get some charges it'd probably work well, but you'd get those kills easier with RoA.
On the other end of it, if you're farming for something big like radiance anyways it seems like the RoA's increased damage and attack speed (via agility) would eventually pull ahead of the ~100g savings that Urn + Iron Talon offers.
It totally seems like it could work, but you'd need a game where you'd be pretty confident in your ability to get kills off haunt otherwise if you're just farming for radiance RoA would probably come out ahead.
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SoCal8910 Posts
Yeah I mean, most games where you're going to already be picking up an urn is a game that you're going to be reliant on haunt kills I think.
however, the straight up hp removal of jungle creeps (particularly the hard camps right by the wave) makes it quick to bounce in and kill a hard camp, and then make it back to the wave without missing cs. The roa definitely provides more to heroes, but early game spectre should probably be waiting for that haunt dagger snipe so she can continue to farm, rather than running around looking to pick fights. The iron talon is for that down time.
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On October 18 2015 19:54 babysimba wrote:
1-1-4 build with pms hood lmao
i've done that against a brood before
I feel this hero has 2 peaks and most people don't capitalize the first peak of pre-bkb team fights early/mid game.
after their carries get bkb and started to really ball up and team fight spectre is quite weak until she gets 3, 4 big items, just a rad + 1 item doesn't quite work.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 28 2016 05:50 Logo wrote:
My concern is that you're getting the Urn so you want to participate in kills, but you'd be doing so with nothing item-wise to help you deal damage. Compared to RoA you're missing 9 agility and 9 damage. Yeah you can jump in with your ult regardless and after you get some charges it'd probably work well, but you'd get those kills easier with RoA.
Urn is foremost an HP sustainability item that gives you 2 Salves worth of healing every Haunt CD, and therefore keeps your HP stable for farming. It's often the best option since RoH blows unless you have a specific need for the items it builds into.
You're not getting Urn to be some proactive early game focused carry. You're getting it because in a lot of those games it's simply the most efficient way to stabilize your HP with normal farming patterns. The team contributions are essentially free additional upside since it basically costs the same as RoH.
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i actually have a question... how do you gauge how strong you are at man-fighting other carries? I think that's my biggest problem with mid-game as a carry.
I get early game participations, I farm well, but there are these key fights mid game I'm not sure if I should fully commit and right click the enemy carry or should I kill the supports. In short I'm not sure if I can win a man-fight if I get into one. Let's just talk about spec for instance. What usually happens is I have radiance +1 item, probably manta or diffusal, and enemy carries have bkbs.
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pretty sure that's a thing that comes from experience, knowing who you can manfight when it seems like it would be close. just try to weigh their natural dps and damage mitigation against your own, and consider how long each of you will be locked down or something due to abilities
i feel like in general, spec doesn't do well in manfighting bkb carries though, considering it blocks radiance, dispersion, and diffusal feedback. spec's kit is geared towards sniping squishy backliners and randomly AOEing down other squishies during haunt
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On January 30 2016 06:38 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
pretty sure that's a thing that comes from experience, knowing who you can manfight when it seems like it would be close. just try to weigh their natural dps and damage mitigation against your own, and consider how long each of you will be locked down or something due to abilities
i feel like in general, spec doesn't do well in manfighting bkb carries though, considering it blocks radiance, dispersion, and diffusal feedback. spec's kit is geared towards sniping squishy backliners and randomly AOEing down other squishies during haunt
Though once your opponents don't have bkb up, Spectre is nearly impossible to manfight with lifesteal.
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On January 30 2016 06:24 evanthebouncy! wrote:
i actually have a question... how do you gauge how strong you are at man-fighting other carries? I think that's my biggest problem with mid-game as a carry.
I get early game participations, I farm well, but there are these key fights mid game I'm not sure if I should fully commit and right click the enemy carry or should I kill the supports. In short I'm not sure if I can win a man-fight if I get into one. Let's just talk about spec for instance. What usually happens is I have radiance +1 item, probably manta or diffusal, and enemy carries have bkbs.
u should focus the supports down in haunt and kite around with dagger until bkbs are gone
both of her passives are negated by immunity.
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Can someone tell me the pros and cons of drums + urn vs vanguard + aqulia,
I tried out drums + urns a lot, and it turns out to be pretty shitty for me. You almost always have to have a free lane, your buiild doesnt give you any form of sustain less you find kills. and even if you semi jungle, you still run back to the fountain crying each time.
Vanguard + aqualia just seems that much better to me when i play it. It gives you some much need sustain, the additional tankinesss is fine. True, you might not have the chase you could have with drums urn but the sustain is really that muchbetter, and being able to haunt in anywhere at near full hp is a huge plus, where with drums and urn, unless you get a completely free lane, any supports can just trade way too effectively against you or nuke you down until u have urn charges...
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
thats because ur supposed to haunt into kills with drums and urn. u underestimate how strong she is with those items
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the build i like the most is
treads/qb/pms/aquila/roh
then radiance
sometimes i get phase over treads if enemy have like bh to counteract track speed
sometimes i get urn over roh if i think the game will have less jungling and more chaotic fights
sometimes i get wand if it's rly good in w.e lane im against
...
i rly hate having to not get treads/qb/pms/aquila/roh tho
they provide a smooth road to an ez sacred relic pick up
b-but sir... if i get drums phase ill get more kills, why wud u not get those?
well its just a compromise. i prefer a slow and steady style of gameplay than chaos and memes
u might get 2 extra kills with drums/phase but having those might put u in a less comfortable position overall, due to sometimes being scared of ganks because (not always being at full hp) and not being able to farm jungle without losing hp or w.e
b-but badman is 8k and he spams spectre with le epic fighting build that was used ever since wc3 (dont call it the badman build coz its been done 12 years before too).
if anyone in the 7k-8k bracket spammed spectre enough times they wud have similar results its just that only 1 spectre spammer exists there, that hero has the highest winrate of all hard carries in dota2 and in the 5k+ bracket according to dotabuff ~60%
this hero is too forgiving whenever u make mistakes it doesnt matter as much as making mistakes with morph/am
more: also casual roh on this hero is VERY NICE.
- u can turn it into a hood if enemy has heavy magic. reminder hood has a self active now and with new dispersion changes 2 patches ago ure gonna be tankier and taking 0 magic dmg coz of barrier will reflect dmg to enemy if tho u took 0.
- u can make it into a vanguard?! lol wud prolly do this only against lots of summons like brood and stuff but its still not bad.
- turn it into a linkens, this is rly good vs stuff like LC or Bat, even lina but i guess heart is good enough anyway vs lina type heroes
- later refresher
- or just keep it for casual hp regen till u need to replace it. 5 hp regen is rly good even if u dont upgrade it. makes u not lose hp while jungling or running between farm locations hence always stay at full hp -> get ganked less -> lose less gold -> finish radiance faster
also i dont think its generally wise to go butterfly on spectre especially after radiance miss chance buff and new dispersion change.
u already have miss chance on enemies going butterfly forces them to mkb which means 2 of ur items got countered by 1 and noones gonna build an mkb just for radiance.
also with the new dispersion change spectre loves having armour/magic resist more than ever. u know what else she loves?
having negative armour/magic resistance on enemies.
so get butterfly instead of ac if u want get one vs phys teams.
more armour for u = tankier
tankier = more dispersion
more dispersion = more dmg to enemies
negative armour on enemies = more dispersion dmg to enemies
butterfly evasion doesnt cause dispersion *gasp*
and having 1 AC on team at late game is just too good. if u dont get it someone else might have to
i still dont know why i didnt spam this hero more in my soloq
i tend to lose very little with her just coz icefrog thought its a good idea to create something very balanced called dispersion
she is the hero that prolly everyone in the world is most comfortable to go late game with and win
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personally i leave it at pms wand for laning, or stout quelling, but that's not the way to play these days.
i think urn drums is far and away the most popular build right now. keep in mind not every game is a radiance game for spectre. this also means 3 points in dagger is more common at level 6. honestly, i'm not a big fan of the dagger build on spectre but everything combined it has its merits for sure at early levels.
it's hard to describe the equilibrium and style you need to play spectre before your first major items, and i am in no way an expert. i still play it the slow style and build up with morbid or sit in jungle for radi rush. personally, what i enjoy the most about urn is haunt kill -> tower, then there's less pressure on you after the dust settles.
unless they are dual laning you offlane or similar which is much more common in pubs, you usually have an easier time.
i recommend you look up some games, since the hero is getting picked quite a lot lately.
here you go.
http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/spectre/guides#
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On February 11 2016 07:56 nanaoei wrote:
personally i leave it at pms wand for laning, or stout quelling, but that's not the way to play these days.
i think urn drums is far and away the most popular build right now. keep in mind not every game is a radiance game for spectre. this also means 3 points in dagger is more common at level 6.
it's hard to describe the equilibrium and style you need to play spectre before your first major items, and i am in no way an expert.
unless they are dual laning you offlane or similar which is much more common in pubs, you usually have an easier time.
i recommend you look up some games, since the hero is getting picked quite a lot lately.
dagger shud be maxed almost always coz after 6.82 shenanigans spectre got a ninja nerf that decreased her base movespeed but improved dagger speed
every game can be a radiance game unless ure against rly have splitpush that includes AM
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so i've discovered MANGO is such a sick item.
with mango you can quickly pop one to get 310 mana before you ult for the haunt+dagger combo
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Yo beesa what are you picking against spectre these days
I've been trying to pick morph but I feel like my team just LOSES before I ever get to make a big enough impact (Im sure im not fighting enough)
Weaver / slark still seems ok though.
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Honestly I find support picks and to a lesser extent offlane picks to almost be the most important again spec. She just wins fights by killing 1-2 heroes in haunt duration and the chaos that comes with it. As the enemy team stops running around in circles and realize what to target or where the real spectre is, the fight is over. Most cores arent so vulnerable against it but many supps are.
And anytime I see people not buying proper defensive items I get a little sad. Congrats AA, you got a 20min midas and at 30min you have point booster+ogre club. And you die in the first 3secs of haunt EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Or the aether lens Rhasta "sick item i can shackle from so far away now lulz" who dies just as fast.
Get ghosts, forces and glimmers ffs. Even on some cores if needed. And preferably stay away from the free spectre food picks (AA, sky, kotl, etc).
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Tide is the easier counter against spectre, in combination with other push heroes like invoker, etc. My games usually end in <20 min high ground.
Tide keeps supports tied up in safelane or simply destroy the lane if they pick greedy supports. Rush mek and only use ravage mid-fights after enemy commit to fight. Even better if you have another support that can get mek reliably like bh or chen, then you can just go pipe first.
Other 5 man heroes work too like undying, necro, phoenix, etc, but it is too easy to fail execution and things start going downhill because of 1 lost fight. Ravage makes the game braindead easy to execute, it basically nullifies the effect of haunt.
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Whenever I play vs spectre spammers I just go offlane Dirge and that abuser cries in a corner for the next 20 min untill I get the inevitable +25. That is like top 3 hero to fuck up spectre not only in laning stage but when you fight and you put tomb instantly when she goes for Haunt zombies apply and desolate is negated to all illusions.
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Spec is easy enough to shut down in lane but the problem is how good players / teams will take proper fights to get her to recover. And she recovers so quickly with comeback gold.
the hero has one of the best recoveries, which is kind of crazy considering how strong she is
If u execute and commit to ending the game without any sloppy plays / pickoffs, you can do it. But most pub games can't execute, even at the highest levels. All it takes is one bad engagement for spec to get a quad kill and the game is back.
most good players understand this and don't get emotional when they get aggressive laned
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On February 11 2016 14:57 Comeh wrote:
Yo beesa what are you picking against spectre these days
I've been trying to pick morph but I feel like my team just LOSES before I ever get to make a big enough impact (Im sure im not fighting enough)
Weaver / slark still seems ok though.
lycan, she cant manfight u, she cant defend her base
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SoCal8910 Posts
On February 11 2016 22:50 ahw wrote:
If u execute and commit to ending the game without any sloppy plays / pickoffs, you can do it. But most pub games can't execute, even at the highest levels. All it takes is one bad engagement for spec to get a quad kill and the game is back.
yeah this is really the "spectre experience"
doesn't matter if you have a hero that can be good vs her if you and your team take a sloppy team fight after shutting her down for 20 minutes.
e: have I ever mentioned that I hate the comeback mechanic? because I hate the comeback mechanic :D
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Most of my spectre games have been an awful laning stage into a bunch of haunt double kills into win game. Shutting down the lane doesn't matter unless you can actually close out the game before 30 minutes. After 30 minute the game will become even if the Spectre has gotten even fourth-most networth, and after 40 minutes you usually lose.
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On February 12 2016 06:31 Birdie wrote:
Most of my spectre games have been an awful laning stage into a bunch of haunt double kills into win game. Shutting down the lane doesn't matter unless you can actually close out the game before 30 minutes. After 30 minute the game will become even if the Spectre has gotten even fourth-most networth, and after 40 minutes you usually lose.
solution to spectre is:
1) end the game in 20min
2) shut down her lane or atleast make her not get free farm and end the game in 30min
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What about Ember Spirit? Maybe not a counter, but his split push prowess late game would prove useful no doubt, combined with his late game damage in team fights. Sure, he can't press R and kill supports across the map, but those late game sleights are always gross.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On February 12 2016 09:46 yookstah wrote:
What about Ember Spirit? Maybe not a counter, but his split push prowess late game would prove useful no doubt, combined with his late game damage in team fights. Sure, he can't press R and kill supports across the map, but those late game sleights are always gross.
Spectre can probably just ignore ember until everyone else is dead when it gets to that point. And lord knows ember can't manfight a spectre, then.
Your best bet would be to split push and pray you get a pick off or two/force them to make a mistake.
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Why is envy skipping radiance purposefully, even when he has a good game he tends to focus on fighting with spec with urn (which is fine) but than he goes into manta, diffusal and never mades the radi.
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Arc Warden is p great vs Spec. You definitely do not want to go late vs AW but a Spec pick forces it.
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really? i imagine specs ability to pinpoint the real arc warden makes her one of the better carries against his lategame rat style
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On February 12 2016 17:04 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
really? i imagine specs ability to pinpoint the real arc warden makes her one of the better carries against his lategame rat style
can't you visibly see which arc warden is real (except manta illu)
i mean, arc warden is broken either way.
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On February 12 2016 17:38 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 17:04 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
really? i imagine specs ability to pinpoint the real arc warden makes her one of the better carries against his lategame rat style can't you visibly see which arc warden is real (except manta illu) i mean, arc warden is broken either way.
oh i mean for arc wardens that are hiding the real hero and botsing out the clone on cd with rapiers, it's an easy way to find where he's hiding the hero
ofc multiple globals is ideal but i think spec helps
personally i think played at top level, core arc warden's more of a timing hero than a lategame hero, since other carries with mkbs can just erase him and take his rapiers, but in pub environments he probably tends to have the advantage if he actually gets to lategame items at all (for the same reason as naga and radi alch)
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
spectre would need mkb if he wants to hunt arc warden with haunt
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SoCal8910 Posts
On February 12 2016 12:01 Shock710 wrote:
Why is envy skipping radiance purposefully, even when he has a good game he tends to focus on fighting with spec with urn (which is fine) but than he goes into manta, diffusal and never mades the radi.
We would need more info on the game. What was the other team?
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On February 12 2016 22:35 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 12:01 Shock710 wrote:
Why is envy skipping radiance purposefully, even when he has a good game he tends to focus on fighting with spec with urn (which is fine) but than he goes into manta, diffusal and never mades the radi. We would need more info on the game. What was the other team?
not one game, all his spec games from the last month have been like this (at least on stream)
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On February 12 2016 22:43 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 22:35 BluemoonSC wrote:On February 12 2016 12:01 Shock710 wrote:
Why is envy skipping radiance purposefully, even when he has a good game he tends to focus on fighting with spec with urn (which is fine) but than he goes into manta, diffusal and never mades the radi. We would need more info on the game. What was the other team? not one game, all his spec games from the last month have been like this (at least on stream)
oh yeah i think he's been doing the badman build.. i've heard that badman (the who's 8k+ and a spec spammer) almost don't radiance as well just goes diffusal + manta (not sure in which order)
from what i've seen from his games after the phase + urn + drums .. he goes straight manta in which the manta actually synergizes with the desolate super well like it melts people so fast and moving in and out of the fight is no problem due to the massive movespeed boost + dagger ignore terrain
it looks like how AM works in fights except without the blink
On February 12 2016 00:01 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 14:57 Comeh wrote:
Yo beesa what are you picking against spectre these days
I've been trying to pick morph but I feel like my team just LOSES before I ever get to make a big enough impact (Im sure im not fighting enough)
Weaver / slark still seems ok though. lycan, she cant manfight u, she cant defend her base
never thought of this before .. nice
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From what I've seen he has gone radi in some games still, but indeed most games he has skipped it completely.
I'm not sure if there is a particular reasoning for trying it out other than trying what is successful for a pub Spectre spammer. But drum active has been getting buffs every patch, diffusal has been getting buffs for a few patches. Opting for manta + diffusal gives you good damage potential to kill of single targets. It's worse for killing off heroes you are not targeting I guess but very good when trying to burst a guy down. Depends a bit on the game exactly how good the other team deals with radiance burn, though radiance is rarely a poor choice. Also skipping radiance allows you to buy your items in much smaller increments, so you get more powerful step by step and are less likely to lose gold.
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Chen is the best support pick again Spectre. You can punish her weak laning, reliably close out the game quickly, you're never alone to suffer desolate damage and your heals are very effective as she spreads a lot of damage across the entire team. Chen is also the overall best hero in the game.
On the offlane Lone Druid shines for similar reasons. Undying is also very good but you have to make sure that your teammates that can take out towers.
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is it though? farming radiance eg being useless from early to midgame requires more coordination/teamwork than getting stronger incrementally and contributing yourself. The thing with radiance on spectre is that even at the point she has it she will not contribute that much because it is more of a farming and cleanup item than anything else, so you don't really start to contribute much (actually carry) until you have your first big defensive item such as heart/skadi, because spectre scales as a soak/tank and as a damage dealer, so ignoring one path for such a long time slows down the game alot.
Also the amount of coordination you need for creating space for spectre is higher than the amount to gank or sufficiently pressure her team because it is a defacto 5on4. just that she takes way more time to ramp and has only little means to contribute anything compared to other carries when rushing radiance. compare that to alchemist for example who farms way faster, has high natural tankyness due to ultimate and good utility. Or even naga who has better lane presence and provides a high amount of CC utility.
What envy and badman are proving here is that a spectre build should synergize with her kit from the get go and not just after 2 major items most of the time in most of the games. Also they don't fall into the "iam doing well I should itemize incredibly greedy now" -trap but they use their lead responsibly by contributing faster and also minizing the risk of feeding back kill gold.
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On February 12 2016 22:43 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 22:35 BluemoonSC wrote:On February 12 2016 12:01 Shock710 wrote:
Why is envy skipping radiance purposefully, even when he has a good game he tends to focus on fighting with spec with urn (which is fine) but than he goes into manta, diffusal and never mades the radi. We would need more info on the game. What was the other team? not one game, all his spec games from the last month have been like this (at least on stream)
Hi shock!!! Yeah I've been wondering this as well when I watched some of his games :O
I think illidan was streaming a game just now where he skipped radiance as well, and I've seen him skip radiance pretty often on spectre as well.
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On February 13 2016 21:41 clickrush wrote:
is it though? farming radiance eg being useless from early to midgame requires more coordination/teamwork than getting stronger incrementally and contributing yourself. The thing with radiance on spectre is that even at the point she has it she will not contribute that much because it is more of a farming and cleanup item than anything else, so you don't really start to contribute much (actually carry) until you have your first big defensive item such as heart/skadi, because spectre scales as a soak/tank and as a damage dealer, so ignoring one path for such a long time slows down the game alot.
Also the amount of coordination you need for creating space for spectre is higher than the amount to gank or sufficiently pressure her team because it is a defacto 5on4. just that she takes way more time to ramp and has only little means to contribute anything compared to other carries when rushing radiance. compare that to alchemist for example who farms way faster, has high natural tankyness due to ultimate and good utility. Or even naga who has better lane presence and provides a high amount of CC utility.
What envy and badman are proving here is that a spectre build should synergize with her kit from the get go and not just after 2 major items most of the time in most of the games. Also they don't fall into the "iam doing well I should itemize incredibly greedy now" -trap but they use their lead responsibly by contributing faster and also minizing the risk of feeding back kill gold.
Well the problem with spectre is that precisely as you described, she's useless at the start. So "getting stronger incrementally" still makes you really bad early on, because you go from "doesn't participate" to "participates very little and still does nothing in teamfights outside of Haunt". It's not like you can go into early skirmishes or teamfights and right-click anyone once you finished drums. It's not like you go from 4v5 to ursa once you finish manta.
Once you get radi you upgrade your ult to do 250/300/350 magic damage on every enemy hero, that's damage that just isn't there if you go drums manta. While I agree that with just radi she can't be in the midst of the fights, she still can lurk around the corners and deal radi and dagger damage.
I guess with how aggressive the game has become you can just farm heroes, since the hero is still terrible at farming creeps. Badman finished his last 45 minute game at 191 lasthits (given, low compared to other games).
Also if you just build her as a tank without radi she'll just be ignored. Her early game damage is pitiful at best.
I'll check some replays though, Badman and Envy certainly know a lot more about the hero than I do, so I'm prolly overlooking something.
edit: holy shit spectre scales fast with items. Mb I'm wrong and spectre with 6-10k nw could totally be a threat with small items.
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On February 15 2016 00:07 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2016 21:41 clickrush wrote:
is it though? farming radiance eg being useless from early to midgame requires more coordination/teamwork than getting stronger incrementally and contributing yourself. The thing with radiance on spectre is that even at the point she has it she will not contribute that much because it is more of a farming and cleanup item than anything else, so you don't really start to contribute much (actually carry) until you have your first big defensive item such as heart/skadi, because spectre scales as a soak/tank and as a damage dealer, so ignoring one path for such a long time slows down the game alot.
Also the amount of coordination you need for creating space for spectre is higher than the amount to gank or sufficiently pressure her team because it is a defacto 5on4. just that she takes way more time to ramp and has only little means to contribute anything compared to other carries when rushing radiance. compare that to alchemist for example who farms way faster, has high natural tankyness due to ultimate and good utility. Or even naga who has better lane presence and provides a high amount of CC utility.
What envy and badman are proving here is that a spectre build should synergize with her kit from the get go and not just after 2 major items most of the time in most of the games. Also they don't fall into the "iam doing well I should itemize incredibly greedy now" -trap but they use their lead responsibly by contributing faster and also minizing the risk of feeding back kill gold. Well the problem with spectre is that precisely as you described, she's useless at the start. So "getting stronger incrementally" still makes you really bad early on, because you go from "doesn't participate" to "participates very little and still does nothing in teamfights outside of Haunt". It's not like you can go into early skirmishes or teamfights and right-click anyone once you finished drums. It's not like you go from 4v5 to ursa once you finish manta. Once you get radi you upgrade your ult to do 250/300/350 magic damage on every enemy hero, that's damage that just isn't there if you go drums manta. While I agree that with just radi she can't be in the midst of the fights, she still can lurk around the corners and deal radi and dagger damage. I guess with how aggressive the game has become you can just farm heroes, since the hero is still terrible at farming creeps. Badman finished his last 45 minute game at 191 lasthits (given, low compared to other games). Also if you just build her as a tank without radi she'll just be ignored. Her early game damage is pitiful at best. I'll check some replays though, Badman and Envy certainly know a lot more about the hero than I do, so I'm prolly overlooking something. edit: holy shit spectre scales fast with items. Mb I'm wrong and spectre with 6-10k nw could totally be a threat with small items.
The weak spec thing is kind of a myth / players being bad. she is actually STRONG early. She's just weak in lane. Good players will get shit on in lane but still turn the game around with smart fights. Desolate and dagger with 1 pt dispersion makes her really strong at pickoffs. She's better at farming through fights than farming through creeps, so whatever build maximizes that will probably win you the game. She's got more sustainability than most late game carries because of dagger and dispersion and her item build (treads urn stick)
That's the problem with trying to rush radiance. You generally can't out farm the farming heroes cause you should be fighting
Traditional spec farms for 20 mins to poverty out a radiance. Nowadays you can fight for 15 mins and get the same results, plus keeping their cores down.
Manta at a fast timing takes out a support instantly unless they have some self save like disruption or whatever. If they do then rad might be better.
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why doesnt badman get aquila on this hero
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On March 18 2016 04:58 Kraznaya wrote:
why doesnt badman get aquila on this hero
probably because he doesnt think its worth it OR maybe he thinks its worth but likes hard games
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On March 18 2016 04:58 Kraznaya wrote:
why doesnt badman get aquila on this hero
Because he gets urn instead.
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On March 18 2016 04:58 Kraznaya wrote:
why doesnt badman get aquila on this hero
With his build being phase/wand into urn bracer, I think his main goal is to get the hero as strong (aka tanky) as possible in skirmishes.
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On March 18 2016 04:58 Kraznaya wrote:
why doesnt badman get aquila on this hero
Too many stat efficient items doesn't make it efficient to get it anymore.
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So I got massively flamed for getting hood of defiance on Spectre. It was after Drums/Phase, and before Radiance. It allowed me to stay alive a lot of times
It's a very good item on Spectre, and usually more value than Vanguard because of the active. you're bound to block 325 damage, which is technically HP, and that's more than what Vanguard gives.
Am I missing something here?
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Depends on the enemy lineup of course how good it is but there definitely are games where hood is a fine choice on Spectre imo.
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On March 18 2016 19:41 spudde123 wrote:
Depends on the enemy lineup of course how good it is but there definitely are games where hood is a fine choice on Spectre imo.
well yeah it's not an every game pickup.
I got it against a core Leshrac and Ember
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Hood is a weird item, it's not just spec but unless you are BB or something like that you'd usually get flamed
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Dunno, wouldn't go hood unless I want to go pipe anyways. Going sth like bracer+cloak+vit/point booster should give you the same amount of survivability and you can upgrade 2 and sell the third (I guess you sell drums later on too).
It's also better vs mixed damage and against chain-stuns.
There are probably situations where the ehp from hood is higher, but mostly when you are tanky to begin with and the +15% magic resistance over casual cloak really make a big difference. So unless you really work with the regen on a regular basis and are against a lot of nukes I don't think it's good.
Edit: checked, absorption works at least offensively with dispersion, so probably defensively as well.
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Hood gets more value with Spec because of how Dispersion works now.
It reflects damage before reduction.
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On March 19 2016 07:40 trinxified wrote:
Hood gets more value with Spec because of how Dispersion works now.
It reflects damage before reduction.
Yeah the situation you described might be one where hood actually works well (depending on lesh's build). It's just pretty unconventional and in most situations hood is somewhat outclassed by simply building strength, so i can see where your teampartners came from. What was your item build?
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When is this better than the straight up 180 hp of drums, along with the stats and burst potential (which is actually great on spec)
Sums fits spectre builds because you wanna fight, good is more late game value but in late game you are out of slots and it's pretty bad
I don't see it mates
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On March 19 2016 21:59 ahw wrote:
When is this better than the straight up 180 hp of drums, along with the stats and burst potential (which is actually great on spec)
Sums fits spectre builds because you wanna fight, good is more late game value but in late game you are out of slots and it's pretty bad
I don't see it mates
Yeah I agree. As written above I think you can get to similar ehp levels with small items that you can upgrade if you really need only tankiness. But there are situations where the hood works better, it's just that the damage has to be 70%+ magically (and not too heavy on the stun side of things). Which makes it really weak later on when other damage sources pick up.
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It's just the math that confuses me. Mid game, lvls 7-12 let's say. You generally have in the area of 1000 starting health depending on ur item build.
Hood gives you another 300HP vs magic and some regen. That's pretty ok.
But treads drums gives you 350 hp, and stats, and a good active.
If ur ever in a situation vs lots of burst, u want treads drums. not hood. You'd never want hood, because it doesn't fit in any buildup and doesn't become better than stats until you have a bigger hp pool.
It's made more confusing because the only time you'd want hood, youD generally be massing stats to make it more worthwhile.
In what situation would u make this item?
Treads drums hood? That seems too mid game focused and you'd have to sell both drums and hood. Treads urn hood? Maybe? Treads hood vit booster? Ur not going to do anything with those items, so why bother building for fighting?
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I'm not a fan of hood, but comparing it to treads+drums like that is bullshit when the second combo costs 700g more.
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He's comparing brown boots + hood to treads + drums, which is closer by gold but also an unrealistic build-up. He's also leaving out the active; in the situation he describes, Spectre gets 300 mEHP after Dispersion from the resistance and an additional 325 mEHP from the active that I think still applies before Dispersion.
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On March 20 2016 11:17 Belisarius wrote:
I'm not a fan of hood, but comparing it to treads+drums like that is bullshit when the second combo costs 700g more.
For the record I was comparing phase/hood, because phase is the standard "everyone" build atm. But it doesn't really matter.
u can compare hood straight up to drums if you want. That's fine. It's pretty close, 180ish hp and stats vs 300 magic block. Tbh id take drums every time anyway because of the buildup and charges.
But what I'm saying is if the REASON ur buying hood is to "tank up" through magic dmg, then ur better off going treads drums. Because treads scale in to late game, and drums gives you more all-around utility.
The situations that would make someone want to go hood would be better resolved with abandoning weird item choices (like some people stick with phase irregardless of the game)
Tldr: item choices aren't made in a vacuum. If ur worried about magic burst, the solution isn't hood, it's smart item choices that have more utility.
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On March 20 2016 12:26 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 11:17 Belisarius wrote:
I'm not a fan of hood, but comparing it to treads+drums like that is bullshit when the second combo costs 700g more. For the record I was comparing phase/hood, because phase is the standard "everyone" build atm. But it doesn't really matter. u can compare hood straight up to drums if you want. That's fine. It's pretty close, 180ish hp and stats vs 300 magic block. Tbh id take drums every time anyway because of the buildup and charges. But what I'm saying is if the REASON ur buying hood is to "tank up" through magic dmg, then ur better off going treads drums. Because treads scale in to late game, and drums gives you more all-around utility. The situations that would make someone want to go hood would be better resolved with abandoning weird item choices (like some people stick with phase irregardless of the game) Tldr: item choices aren't made in a vacuum. If ur worried about magic burst, the solution isn't hood, it's smart item choices that have more utility.
Actually what Buckeyman wrote is a pretty important part of the picture. Hood is still a lot about the magic resistance and not just about the active, having 1k base hp makes hood three times as effective vs magic damage as drums.
numbers: + Show Spoiler +
all numbers made with 1k hp (roughly lvl 9+urn).
ehp:
dispersion 4 hood: 2.4k ehp (2k without spell shield)
dispersion 0 hood: 2k ehp (1625 w/o spell shield)
dispersion 4 drums: 1.8k ehp
dispersion 0 drums: 1.5k ehp
neither item: 1.25k ehp/1525 with dispersion 4.
Now magic damage never reaches 100%, but against magic damage heavy lineups hood might be really good for just surviving. Which is what most of specs non-radi item build is built for.
You can make the "it's useless later on and doesn't upgrade" for drums just as well.
I'd estimate that the build would be sth like (roh)->boots->urn->cloak->(phase)->hood->manta. Just replacing drums with hood shouldn't compromise your damage output too much. Urn should be mandatory as strength and magic resistance scale multiplicatively (and the additional mana cost make mana regen even more important).
Honestly before doing the math I would have facepalmed if I had a hood spectre, but after seeing the numbers I'm not so sure about it anymore.
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Having that RoH early too also means you can stay in lane a bit better.
Hood is pretty darn good. better buy than a vanguard, unless you're against a lot of summons or right clickers in early game
having both drums and hood maybe focusing too much on the midgame, but there's just games that call for it.
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dude all them regen rings u build to a hood helps a lot in farming jungles.
hood is good in situations I can vouch for it. Played this game against a zues and went hood after the usual wand/urn and it was really good, smooth build-up and really cheap.
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When you have such a good time farming, do you go straight relic rafiance or going drums first?
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More often than not, I've found the Spectre doesn't even need radiance. Some permutation of Urn -> Drums -> Yasha/Manta -> Diffusal is really, really strong.
There are a few specific instances where I'll seriously consider going radiance.
1.) There are cores against which it is especially useful (PL in particular, but also AM)
2.) You're the only core, are against multiple cores, feel you'll need to carry hard, AND feel you can get it at a decent timing.
3.) Your team doesn't have enough wave clear and/or you're down a rax (I've gotten some very late radiances versus heroes like NP, to very great effect)
4.) You're farming well AND you team is doing well. The second part is more important imo. If you're farming really well, but the rest of your team is getting steamrolled, that gold would be much more effective if you spend it on items that let you fight early, so you can turn fights with haunt.
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Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps the enemy withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent.
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On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps the enemy withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent.
Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe.
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On March 22 2016 20:25 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps the enemy withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent. Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe.
He was probably using the term "late game" assuming mkb's would pop up by that time. Radiance is indeed not a must on the hero although it's still a good item and manta diffusal is not the best choice in every situation (it's still a good choice in every situation).
Even when going radiance, I think that not abusing spectre's post-6 early game is really a waste. The hero is just a bad laner, not a bad early gamer. Urn->Drums should be gotten almost every time even when going radiance because of the insane killing potential you have with those items. In games where killing is hard, it is better to go for a more farming orientated build with a morbid mask and maybe even pt and no urn and maybe even no drums.
Hood seems good vs really really magic damage heavy lineups. AC should be gotten almost every time in the late game and surely over butterfly (badman goes for butterfly but I think he's wrong on that one). That item is so good with dispersion and haunt illusions carry the aura too so it's still a small benefit for them.
I have a decently sized preference for skadi over HoT on the hero because it helps illusions way more and is also insane during chases plus it's ehp vs physical damage are very similar to those provided by heart.However, Heart's regen is pretty nice on spectre because she's a hero that can disengage pretty handily.
Skipping poor man shield on Spectre is a sin by the way. That item is so good with her because you can disperse blocked damage since the last dispersion change.
Against Broodmother your aim should be to reach vanguard because the spiders not only won't do you any damage but if the brood player is stubborn you can actually destroy them superquickly with dispersion. I have had a couple of games at 5.5k+ (I dropped quite a bit since this summer) in which I had something insane like 200cs at 16min by just staying in lane vs careless broodmothers.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 20 2016 02:18 ahw wrote:
It's just the math that confuses me. Mid game, lvls 7-12 let's say. You generally have in the area of 1000 starting health depending on ur item build.
Hood gives you another 300HP vs magic and some regen. That's pretty ok.
But treads drums gives you 350 hp, and stats, and a good active.
If ur ever in a situation vs lots of burst, u want treads drums. not hood. You'd never want hood, because it doesn't fit in any buildup and doesn't become better than stats until you have a bigger hp pool.
It's made more confusing because the only time you'd want hood, youD generally be massing stats to make it more worthwhile.
In what situation would u make this item?
Treads drums hood? That seems too mid game focused and you'd have to sell both drums and hood. Treads urn hood? Maybe? Treads hood vit booster? Ur not going to do anything with those items, so why bother building for fighting?
You'd get it against heroes like veno or Zeus where you're gonna be getting nuked, but not stunned. What'll wind up happening is that you become tankier and take less damage than they will be taking from dispersion since dispersion is reflected using the pre-reduction dmg.
You need to see the item in action. I've personally played with ppl that did this before envy show cased it on stream.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 23 2016 02:47 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 20:25 superstartran wrote:On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps theDry withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent. Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe. He was probably using the term "late game" assuming mkb's would pop up by that time. Radiance is indeed not a must on the hero although it's still a good item and manta diffusal is not the best choice in every situation (it's still a good choice in every situation). Even when going radiance, I think that not abusing spectre's post-6 early game is really a waste. The hero is just a bad laner, not a bad early gamer. Urn->Drums should be gotten almost every time even when going radiance because of the insane killing potential you have with those items. In games where killing is hard, it is better to go for a more farming orientated build with a morbid mask and maybe even pt and no urn and maybe even no drums. Hood seems good vs really really magic damage heavy lineups. AC should be gotten almost every time in the late game and surely over butterfly (badman goes for butterfly but I think he's wrong on that one). That item is so good with dispersion and haunt illusions carry the aura too so it's still a small benefit for them. I have a decently sized preference for skadi over HoT on the hero because it helps illusions way more and is also insane during chases plus it's ehp vs physical damage are very similar to those provided by heart.However, Heart's regen is pretty nice on spectre because she's a hero that can disengage pretty handily. Skipping poor man shield on Spectre is a sin by the way. That item is so good with her because you can disperse blocked damage since the last dispersion change. Against Broodmother your aim should be to reach vanguard because the spiders not only won't do you any damage but if the brood player is stubborn you can actually destroy them superquickly with dispersion. I have had a couple of games at 5.5k+ (I dropped quite a bit since this summer) in which I had something insane like 200cs at 16min by just staying in lane vs careless broodmothers.
You definitely don't need a morbid mask to farm with spec. Lifesteal isn't actually that desirable for jungle farm bc you can spend 900g on something that will contribute to your farm speed and ferry out salves so you can heal before haunting to a fight (assuming you don't just base and use haunt to kill and get back on the map).
AC does not benefit your haunt illusions the same way that bfly does. Coupled with haunt or manta, you can kill a lonely support with just illusions. Definitely not an every game item and I'm not sure id pick it up in even 1/10 of my games on her.
Manta might be the only item I advocate 9/10 if not all games bc the desolate dmg is insane on solo targets. It gives her everything an illu hero wants too.
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On March 22 2016 20:25 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps the enemy withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent. Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe.
The enemy has a non-negligible window of opportunity to blink to safety after you ult-- Radiance does NOT instantly put blinks on cd.
Don't get me wrong, I love Radiance on Spectre-- it's just been my experience that in most games you don't actually get a good trade for Radiance. That is to say, that the opportunity cost of not being as strong as possible during early and midgame fights when your ult is up, that the loss in space resulting in the slowing of farm rate, and most importantly, the loss (if temporarily) in your team's morale and confidence level as you achieve less and less each ult or ult less often, however it works out, tends to outweigh the benefits of Radiance over the course of the entire game.
Furthermore my previous point was from a super-lategame perspective that there isn't even a real incentive to feel a need for Radiance, since it's not part of her flawless-6slot. So then the question is do you need the farmrate acceleration Radiance provides over a specific timing window to allow Spectre to keep up on net worth, hit specific item timings, and ultimately maintain competitive dps and survivability relative to that of the enemy over the course of the game.
I suspect the answer is that you do not, but I have not personally tried very hard to explore strictly Radiance-free item progressions, so I don't have the empirical data to say one way or the other. I simply found much more success on the hero by not trying to rush Radiance first. This seems to match how Spectre popularly is being run now, albeit through a different item progression than mine. However the trend does seem to suggest Spectres will go back to Radianceless builds as they did prior to the buff, as I mentioned before.
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i like to go urn drums manta/diffusal depending if theres an omni into radiance. Radiance can simply end a game. When support are simply dying to your illusions, the game is won.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 23 2016 10:10 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 20:25 superstartran wrote:On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps the enemy withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent. Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe. The enemy has a non-negligible window of opportunity to blink to safety after you ult-- Radiance does NOT instantly put blinks on cd. Don't get me wrong, I love Radiance on Spectre-- it's just been my experience that in most games you don't actually get a good trade for Radiance. That is to say, that the opportunity cost of not being as strong as possible during early and midgame fights when your ult is up, that the loss in space resulting in the slowing of farm rate, and most importantly, the loss (if temporarily) in your team's morale and confidence level as you achieve less and less each ult or ult less often, however it works out, tends to outweigh the benefits of Radiance over the course of the entire game. Furthermore my previous point was from a super-lategame perspective that there isn't even a real incentive to feel a need for Radiance, since it's not part of her flawless-6slot. So then the question is do you need the farmrate acceleration Radiance provides over a specific timing window to allow Spectre to keep up on net worth, hit specific item timings, and ultimately maintain competitive dps and survivability relative to that of the enemy over the course of the game. I suspect the answer is that you do not, but I have not personally tried very hard to explore strictly Radiance-free item progressions, so I don't have the empirical data to say one way or the other. I simply found much more success on the hero by not trying to rush Radiance first. This seems to match how Spectre popularly is being run now, albeit through a different item progression than mine. However the trend does seem to suggest Spectres will go back to Radianceless builds as they did prior to the buff, as I mentioned before.
i feel like anyone would tell you that rushing radiance is a bad idea, even on complete and utter free farm with zero enemy presence..the small items are what accelerates you there (and makes you less of a target on your way there) as well as making you and your illusions buff ON TOP of the radiance burn.
is radiance a 100% every game item? absolutely not. but it can absolutely tear through supports, especially if you get a diffusal to back it up.
On March 23 2016 10:51 Erasme wrote:
i like to go urn drums manta/diffusal depending if theres an omni into radiance. Radiance can simply end a game. When support are simply dying to your illusions, the game is won.
i like drums in just about every spec build, but i feel like picking up an early basi and disassembling into iron talon + urn is a strong choice if im not gonna upgrade to RoA
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On March 23 2016 10:10 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 20:25 superstartran wrote:On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps the enemy withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent. Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe. The enemy has a non-negligible window of opportunity to blink to safety after you ult-- Radiance does NOT instantly put blinks on cd. Don't get me wrong, I love Radiance on Spectre-- it's just been my experience that in most games you don't actually get a good trade for Radiance. That is to say, that the opportunity cost of not being as strong as possible during early and midgame fights when your ult is up, that the loss in space resulting in the slowing of farm rate, and most importantly, the loss (if temporarily) in your team's morale and confidence level as you achieve less and less each ult or ult less often, however it works out, tends to outweigh the benefits of Radiance over the course of the entire game. Furthermore my previous point was from a super-lategame perspective that there isn't even a real incentive to feel a need for Radiance, since it's not part of her flawless-6slot. So then the question is do you need the farmrate acceleration Radiance provides over a specific timing window to allow Spectre to keep up on net worth, hit specific item timings, and ultimately maintain competitive dps and survivability relative to that of the enemy over the course of the game. I suspect the answer is that you do not, but I have not personally tried very hard to explore strictly Radiance-free item progressions, so I don't have the empirical data to say one way or the other. I simply found much more success on the hero by not trying to rush Radiance first. This seems to match how Spectre popularly is being run now, albeit through a different item progression than mine. However the trend does seem to suggest Spectres will go back to Radianceless builds as they did prior to the buff, as I mentioned before.
There are alot of situations where Radiance is SUPER good though. If you're playing against a lot of low mobility/squishy supports Radiance is like a free win as soon as you hit R. Radiance is less good against tanky line-ups that can sustain in fights and outfight your team (i.e. lots of tanky heroes like Tide/Jakiro/etc. who can stand and fight or kill off illusions quickly). The amount of AoE damage you put out with Radiance is pretty crazy; now obviously if you have a few scary heroes that you need to burst down/kill quickly, Diffusal/Manta def is the better build.
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SoCal8910 Posts
I don't think he's saying it's bad, but that the opportunity cost is bad bc it takes forever to come online...but that's only true if you're rushing it.
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I love how one year ago, people would have lost their minds if someone was going for radi after minute 30. I can still see the "useless" spam.
Now it's perfectly fine, though.
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rushing to items (like brown boots only) that give no stats like Radiance, Battlefury and Mjolnir is almost always bad. they all have something in common too... farm oriented items.
getting the value stat efficient items like Aquila, wand, drums, treads, urn, etc. and then those items is the right play.
even AM, the hero that you would likely want to "rush" a BF as soon as possible should still get at least treads first for the most part.
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On March 23 2016 03:08 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2016 02:47 Karpfen wrote:On March 22 2016 20:25 superstartran wrote:On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps theDry withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent. Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe. He was probably using the term "late game" assuming mkb's would pop up by that time. Radiance is indeed not a must on the hero although it's still a good item and manta diffusal is not the best choice in every situation (it's still a good choice in every situation). Even when going radiance, I think that not abusing spectre's post-6 early game is really a waste. The hero is just a bad laner, not a bad early gamer. Urn->Drums should be gotten almost every time even when going radiance because of the insane killing potential you have with those items. In games where killing is hard, it is better to go for a more farming orientated build with a morbid mask and maybe even pt and no urn and maybe even no drums. Hood seems good vs really really magic damage heavy lineups. AC should be gotten almost every time in the late game and surely over butterfly (badman goes for butterfly but I think he's wrong on that one). That item is so good with dispersion and haunt illusions carry the aura too so it's still a small benefit for them. I have a decently sized preference for skadi over HoT on the hero because it helps illusions way more and is also insane during chases plus it's ehp vs physical damage are very similar to those provided by heart.However, Heart's regen is pretty nice on spectre because she's a hero that can disengage pretty handily. Skipping poor man shield on Spectre is a sin by the way. That item is so good with her because you can disperse blocked damage since the last dispersion change. Against Broodmother your aim should be to reach vanguard because the spiders not only won't do you any damage but if the brood player is stubborn you can actually destroy them superquickly with dispersion. I have had a couple of games at 5.5k+ (I dropped quite a bit since this summer) in which I had something insane like 200cs at 16min by just staying in lane vs careless broodmothers. You definitely don't need a morbid mask to farm with spec. Lifesteal isn't actually that desirable for jungle farm bc you can spend 900g on something that will contribute to your farm speed and ferry out salves so you can heal before haunting to a fight (assuming you don't just base and use haunt to kill and get back on the map). AC does not benefit your haunt illusions the same way that bfly does. Coupled with haunt or manta, you can kill a lonely support with just illusions. Definitely not an every game item and I'm not sure id pick it up in even 1/10 of my games on her. Manta might be the only item I advocate 9/10 if not all games bc the desolate dmg is insane on solo targets. It gives her everything an illu hero wants too.
If you can't look for kills for some reason then there is literally no way that you're gonna get less than 450g on salves while maintaining the same pace/risk as morbid mask. Keep in mind you should sell morbid mask when you're 450g away from radiance recipe. It's not "needed" but it's worth it if you're going for a radi build and you don't have many ways to kill (which is really not many games lol).
You can probably kill supports anyway regardless yet AC for the hero itself >>> butterfly.
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you don't get dispersion procs off evaded attacks right?
i would much prefer the 900g item over hogging courier and salves.
there are still quite a few camps where you can mess up AI by cutting certain trees and making a funnel so only one or two of the creeps can attack you at a time. like the middle medium camp dire, and the two hard-camps radiant.
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I'd like to add that radiance is also extremely good in team fights, as you're
1.) dealing the burn magic damage to everyone on the enemy team regardless of positioning
2.) Causing them to miss attacks on your allies as well.
Imo this doesn't change the basic equation - that radiance frequently isn't worth it - but it's something to consider.
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On March 26 2016 02:31 nanaoei wrote:
you don't get dispersion procs off evaded attacks right?
i would much prefer the 900g item over hogging courier and salves.
there are still quite a few camps where you can mess up AI by cutting certain trees and making a funnel so only one or two of the creeps can attack you at a time. like the middle medium camp dire, and the two hard-camps radiant.
You do not.
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On March 25 2016 08:00 Murlox wrote:
I love how one year ago, people would have lost their minds if someone was going for radi after minute 30. I can still see the "useless" spam.
Now it's perfectly fine, though.
Its still bad after 25 minutes. Obviously you'd love to get it before 20 minutes, about 16-17 minutes would be the best, but if you are tanking up a bit first then getting it by 20 minutes is still fine. Even if you are late at about 25-26 minutes is still okay as the farm ability you gain with it allows you to be able to catch up, but over 30 minutes its on the weak side.
I means sure, if your team is bad and the enemy spectre gets 30 minute radiance, you can still easily lose, but generally speaking you should be able to win, otherwise its just your own team fault, nothing to do with spectre and getting radiance.
I've seen something like 15 minute radiance as well, but that is pretty terrible, people going boots, PMS into radiance, it makes spectre so easy to kill. Any decent ganking mid or a roaming support should be able to set up and/or get kills on her easily.
That said the rubberband is still way too strong and allows spectre to come back from absurd amount of deficit. One won team fight where you stay alive and participate in all the kills and you can easily get something like 3000+ gold and 3000+ experience just from 1 team fight.
On March 26 2016 05:12 Frogstomp wrote:
I'd like to add that radiance is also extremely good in team fights, as you're
2.) Causing them to miss attacks on your allies as well.
Imo this doesn't change the basic equation - that radiance frequently isn't worth it - but it's something to consider.
Ah, you understand that is not how radiance works right? The evasion aspect only works for the radiance carrier, you only miss against spectre, it doesn't cause you to permanently miss 17% against all heroes.
Radiance is always good as long as you can get it up till 25-26 minutes, even a later radiance like that is still useful, the damage burn is still quite good, at level 16 that is 350 magic damage burn to all enemy heroes, plus disabling blink daggers.
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When active, scorches nearby enemies for 50 damage per second and blinds them, causing them to miss 17% of their attacks.
Source
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yep ^
radiance burn causes people to miss, not give you evasion.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 25 2016 21:34 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2016 03:08 BluemoonSC wrote:On March 23 2016 02:47 Karpfen wrote:On March 22 2016 20:25 superstartran wrote:On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps theDry withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent. Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe. He was probably using the term "late game" assuming mkb's would pop up by that time. Radiance is indeed not a must on the hero although it's still a good item and manta diffusal is not the best choice in every situation (it's still a good choice in every situation). Even when going radiance, I think that not abusing spectre's post-6 early game is really a waste. The hero is just a bad laner, not a bad early gamer. Urn->Drums should be gotten almost every time even when going radiance because of the insane killing potential you have with those items. In games where killing is hard, it is better to go for a more farming orientated build with a morbid mask and maybe even pt and no urn and maybe even no drums. Hood seems good vs really really magic damage heavy lineups. AC should be gotten almost every time in the late game and surely over butterfly (badman goes for butterfly but I think he's wrong on that one). That item is so good with dispersion and haunt illusions carry the aura too so it's still a small benefit for them. I have a decently sized preference for skadi over HoT on the hero because it helps illusions way more and is also insane during chases plus it's ehp vs physical damage are very similar to those provided by heart.However, Heart's regen is pretty nice on spectre because she's a hero that can disengage pretty handily. Skipping poor man shield on Spectre is a sin by the way. That item is so good with her because you can disperse blocked damage since the last dispersion change. Against Broodmother your aim should be to reach vanguard because the spiders not only won't do you any damage but if the brood player is stubborn you can actually destroy them superquickly with dispersion. I have had a couple of games at 5.5k+ (I dropped quite a bit since this summer) in which I had something insane like 200cs at 16min by just staying in lane vs careless broodmothers. You definitely don't need a morbid mask to farm with spec. Lifesteal isn't actually that desirable for jungle farm bc you can spend 900g on something that will contribute to your farm speed and ferry out salves so you can heal before haunting to a fight (assuming you don't just base and use haunt to kill and get back on the map). AC does not benefit your haunt illusions the same way that bfly does. Coupled with haunt or manta, you can kill a lonely support with just illusions. Definitely not an every game item and I'm not sure id pick it up in even 1/10 of my games on her. Manta might be the only item I advocate 9/10 if not all games bc the desolate dmg is insane on solo targets. It gives her everything an illu hero wants too. If you can't look for kills for some reason then there is literally no way that you're gonna get less than 450g on salves while maintaining the same pace/risk as morbid mask. Keep in mind you should sell morbid mask when you're 450g away from radiance recipe. It's not "needed" but it's worth it if you're going for a radi build and you don't have many ways to kill (which is really not many games lol). You can probably kill supports anyway regardless yet AC for the hero itself >>> butterfly.
If you're having that much difficulty farming to the point where you're jungling, you almost definitely should be picking up an roh and working towards a vanguard instead of spending 900g on an item that builds towards nothing the hero wants. Even if you plan on selling it, 450 early game gold is a lot of money to forfeit especially if you're having a hard time.
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On March 26 2016 20:23 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2016 21:34 Karpfen wrote:On March 23 2016 03:08 BluemoonSC wrote:On March 23 2016 02:47 Karpfen wrote:On March 22 2016 20:25 superstartran wrote:On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps theDry withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent. Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe. He was probably using the term "late game" assuming mkb's would pop up by that time. Radiance is indeed not a must on the hero although it's still a good item and manta diffusal is not the best choice in every situation (it's still a good choice in every situation). Even when going radiance, I think that not abusing spectre's post-6 early game is really a waste. The hero is just a bad laner, not a bad early gamer. Urn->Drums should be gotten almost every time even when going radiance because of the insane killing potential you have with those items. In games where killing is hard, it is better to go for a more farming orientated build with a morbid mask and maybe even pt and no urn and maybe even no drums. Hood seems good vs really really magic damage heavy lineups. AC should be gotten almost every time in the late game and surely over butterfly (badman goes for butterfly but I think he's wrong on that one). That item is so good with dispersion and haunt illusions carry the aura too so it's still a small benefit for them. I have a decently sized preference for skadi over HoT on the hero because it helps illusions way more and is also insane during chases plus it's ehp vs physical damage are very similar to those provided by heart.However, Heart's regen is pretty nice on spectre because she's a hero that can disengage pretty handily. Skipping poor man shield on Spectre is a sin by the way. That item is so good with her because you can disperse blocked damage since the last dispersion change. Against Broodmother your aim should be to reach vanguard because the spiders not only won't do you any damage but if the brood player is stubborn you can actually destroy them superquickly with dispersion. I have had a couple of games at 5.5k+ (I dropped quite a bit since this summer) in which I had something insane like 200cs at 16min by just staying in lane vs careless broodmothers. You definitely don't need a morbid mask to farm with spec. Lifesteal isn't actually that desirable for jungle farm bc you can spend 900g on something that will contribute to your farm speed and ferry out salves so you can heal before haunting to a fight (assuming you don't just base and use haunt to kill and get back on the map). AC does not benefit your haunt illusions the same way that bfly does. Coupled with haunt or manta, you can kill a lonely support with just illusions. Definitely not an every game item and I'm not sure id pick it up in even 1/10 of my games on her. Manta might be the only item I advocate 9/10 if not all games bc the desolate dmg is insane on solo targets. It gives her everything an illu hero wants too. If you can't look for kills for some reason then there is literally no way that you're gonna get less than 450g on salves while maintaining the same pace/risk as morbid mask. Keep in mind you should sell morbid mask when you're 450g away from radiance recipe. It's not "needed" but it's worth it if you're going for a radi build and you don't have many ways to kill (which is really not many games lol). You can probably kill supports anyway regardless yet AC for the hero itself >>> butterfly. If you're having that much difficulty farming to the point where you're jungling, you almost definitely should be picking up an roh and working towards a vanguard instead of spending 900g on an item that builds towards nothing the hero wants. Even if you plan on selling it, 450 early game gold is a lot of money to forfeit especially if you're having a hard time.
It was more like having difficulties killing people because you have weird low dmg things vs tanky stuff. But I've already written that.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 27 2016 10:41 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2016 20:23 BluemoonSC wrote:On March 25 2016 21:34 Karpfen wrote:On March 23 2016 03:08 BluemoonSC wrote:On March 23 2016 02:47 Karpfen wrote:On March 22 2016 20:25 superstartran wrote:On March 21 2016 02:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Radiance is a pretty weak lategame item; once you start optimizing your 6slot Radiance is the first thing to go. If it's not your first or maybe second major item, don't build it at all. If you're getting your shit pushed in and need waveclear, Mjollnir or Battlefury will serve you better.
Before the drum resurgence I was a strong advocate of not rushing Relic ever. I always found that if I tried to go straight Radiance that by the time I actually picked up the Relic even with fantastic farm that I didn't have the space to finish Radiance at the same rate of farm, such that I will have finished Radiance at the same time as I would have had I built cheaper items first, except I have better kill involvement and more xp doing the latter.
Before Radiance was buffed again it was common to run Drum Diffusal builds. After it was buffed people just assumed Radiance was superior again. Radiance is wonderful on Spectre, but in this meta being able to fight earlier, and more importantly, more frequently, makes Radiance not as desirable of a pick-up. Furthermore, the addition of more items which provide magic resistance or greater utility attached to them helps theDry withstand the magic damage barrage of Radiance during its peak timing, such that the item isn't as potent. Evasion miss chance makes Radiance far better then you think, and also being able to hit R and disable people's blinks instantly is kind of a huge deal, especially since the Radiance burn lingers a little bit after the image disappears. It's not as cut and dry as you believe. He was probably using the term "late game" assuming mkb's would pop up by that time. Radiance is indeed not a must on the hero although it's still a good item and manta diffusal is not the best choice in every situation (it's still a good choice in every situation). Even when going radiance, I think that not abusing spectre's post-6 early game is really a waste. The hero is just a bad laner, not a bad early gamer. Urn->Drums should be gotten almost every time even when going radiance because of the insane killing potential you have with those items. In games where killing is hard, it is better to go for a more farming orientated build with a morbid mask and maybe even pt and no urn and maybe even no drums. Hood seems good vs really really magic damage heavy lineups. AC should be gotten almost every time in the late game and surely over butterfly (badman goes for butterfly but I think he's wrong on that one). That item is so good with dispersion and haunt illusions carry the aura too so it's still a small benefit for them. I have a decently sized preference for skadi over HoT on the hero because it helps illusions way more and is also insane during chases plus it's ehp vs physical damage are very similar to those provided by heart.However, Heart's regen is pretty nice on spectre because she's a hero that can disengage pretty handily. Skipping poor man shield on Spectre is a sin by the way. That item is so good with her because you can disperse blocked damage since the last dispersion change. Against Broodmother your aim should be to reach vanguard because the spiders not only won't do you any damage but if the brood player is stubborn you can actually destroy them superquickly with dispersion. I have had a couple of games at 5.5k+ (I dropped quite a bit since this summer) in which I had something insane like 200cs at 16min by just staying in lane vs careless broodmothers. You definitely don't need a morbid mask to farm with spec. Lifesteal isn't actually that desirable for jungle farm bc you can spend 900g on something that will contribute to your farm speed and ferry out salves so you can heal before haunting to a fight (assuming you don't just base and use haunt to kill and get back on the map). AC does not benefit your haunt illusions the same way that bfly does. Coupled with haunt or manta, you can kill a lonely support with just illusions. Definitely not an every game item and I'm not sure id pick it up in even 1/10 of my games on her. Manta might be the only item I advocate 9/10 if not all games bc the desolate dmg is insane on solo targets. It gives her everything an illu hero wants too. If you can't look for kills for some reason then there is literally no way that you're gonna get less than 450g on salves while maintaining the same pace/risk as morbid mask. Keep in mind you should sell morbid mask when you're 450g away from radiance recipe. It's not "needed" but it's worth it if you're going for a radi build and you don't have many ways to kill (which is really not many games lol). You can probably kill supports anyway regardless yet AC for the hero itself >>> butterfly. If you're having that much difficulty farming to the point where you're jungling, you almost definitely should be picking up an roh and working towards a vanguard instead of spending 900g on an item that builds towards nothing the hero wants. Even if you plan on selling it, 450 early game gold is a lot of money to forfeit especially if you're having a hard time. It was more like having difficulties killing people because you have weird low dmg things vs tanky stuff. But I've already written that.
So I'm still not sure how morbid mask helps.
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I'm not necessarily advocating it, but the build Arteezy was using on his stream right before the Dispersion buff was wand treads morbid mask Radiance with 2-2-1 into 2-2-4-1 skill build. When I tried it myself I was consistently getting 18-19 minute Radiance. For the most part it didn't feel like I was giving up much kill potential-- I was still fighting at least every ult cd. Some kills weren't obtainable without the chase capacity of phase + better levels in Dagger, but some kills were only obtainable thanks to the tower-diving potential of high hp + maxed Dispersion, so it evened out. You could probably slip an orb of venom in there too if you wanted.
The morbid mask + high dispersion levels + pms meant you were always 100% hp and 100% mana in the jungle. There was no reason to use Dagger for farming because it was low level and because you substituted higher Dispersion damage as aoe farming damage prior to Radiance. I never tried the same thing with just a Ring of Health, but I don't think the latter out-competes Morbid Mask. Within this build it's more efficient than Urn or buying extra regen and allows you to relatively comfortably skip other small items. So it's not morbid mask + urn/aquila/drums or whatever else you're buying early, it's just the morbid mask + pms (the latter of which you should already have). So it's not a lot of extra money if you're having a hard time. Of course I wouldn't recommend the morbid mask outside of this specific build (and whatever slight variations you choose to throw in).
The build got stronger when they buffed Dispersion. I don't use it myself anymore because I feel more comfortable with the item progression of my normal build, but I didn't notice any change in winrate. I'm sure there are some lineups it's a good choice against as opposed to the more popular chasing builds, but I don't necessarily know when that is the case. Might be good vs a lineup with high burst + strong escape potential if your lineup can't hold them in place over the window where you're trying to farm Radiance.
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SoCal8910 Posts
Let's not ignore the most important part of the conversation - dispersion has been changed. Youre no longer reflecting pure dmg after reductions (so the more dmg you take, the more you can rice)..instead you're reflecting physical dmg, which can be reduced by the armor of jungle creeps.
This completely changes your needs as a farmer bc its slower than it was before (if you're relying on dispersion) if I'm not mistaken.
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It's really the difference between spec's armour and the creeps' armour. Damage block also interacts favourably now, which is a big deal.
Generally, spec's armour is high enough that the new dispersion comes out ahead on damage, especially with PMS.
Someone should math it if they're keen, but I'm pretty sure the new dispersion is better, not worse, unless you're like lv5 with brown boots, a stick and no stout.
That said, I still don't think dispersion max is the build, since it really gimps your access to that sweet, sweet comeback gold.
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If your armor > others armor new dispersion > old dispersion. With shields it's even better ofc.
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Envy has been going phase urn drums into radiance a lot lately. Which works pretty well, since you get the gold from early kills and can participate, but still keep a decent farming rate once the game slows down.
Timing is somewhere between 20 and 30 minutes (latest I've seen him get it is 27 mins), depending on the game.
What do I build if i need to manfight good manfight-heroes? Played this game vs OD, sven and wl and their sups were visage and aa. Killed aa early in the fights, often visage as well and then I'm stranded. WL isnt a worthwile target once he gets golems out and while I can kite the sven, I can't really manfight him nor the od either after he got bkb, unless I go bkb myself or have a lot more farm. Got abyssal, which meant that we fought relatively even, but od kills my backline as fast as I kill his.
In hindsight probably should have gotten a bkb, but bkb is so bad vs everything they have except for od (and aa, but aa was a non-factor).
Normally I would have gotten bfly, but with atos in the game...
We played super shaky and might have won this, if it wasn't for some throws ("we didn't initiate, we got initiated on" right in front their t3s...).
Match id is 2249066881.
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I didn't watch replay.
Your lasthits are pretty low, and I can only assume you were losing gold every death or bought back a few times, because you do have a lot of kills but still no farm. Not being 6slotted an hour in is pretty rough-- you aren't going to outcompete two hard carries with 3 items.
With no Radiance or Diffusal there's no special strength to your ult-- but that also means you don't really need to save it for a fight. That means you should be looking to try and pick the Warlock solo using your ult when he's vulnerable-- then your team should easily win a teamfight if they allow it 4v5, and if they hide you get a free objective and/or complete map control-- which lets you get better wards up, push in all three lanes, secure both jungles, and get Rosh if possible.
Your team lacking a pipe hurt a lot, but you don't necessarily control that.
You may have needed MKB over Abyssal (or have both ideally) because of that Solar Crest, but you did say you were blowing the Visage up pretty quickly so that may not have mattered.
I dunno if you had Diffusal early on and sold it, but having one is pretty good vs the Sven. That item can completely nullify him in a fight before he has BKB or after his BKB has ended. An hour in I'm sure he was on 5s charge, which meant since he had no blink a Diffusal would absolutely have helped control him in fights.
Don't disregard Warlock after he ults-- stopping him from slowing everything is important in letting you engage and disengage appropriately.
They had a lot of magic/pure damage-- I'm not sure why you think BKB was bad there. BKB literally protects you from at least one aspect of every single hero on their team. Since OD was clearly the bigger problem than Sven you probably would have been fine going BKB after Manta rather than Skadi. Without watching the game I don't fully understand your item progression or choices though.
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On March 30 2016 04:58 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I didn't watch replay.
Your lasthits are pretty low, and I can only assume you were losing gold every death or bought back a few times, because you do have a lot of kills but still no farm. Not being 6slotted an hour in is pretty rough-- you aren't going to outcompete two hard carries with 3 items.
With no Radiance or Diffusal there's no special strength to your ult-- but that also means you don't really need to save it for a fight. That means you should be looking to try and pick the Warlock solo using your ult when he's vulnerable-- then your team should easily win a teamfight if they allow it 4v5, and if they hide you get a free objective and/or complete map control-- which lets you get better wards up, push in all three lanes, secure both jungles, and get Rosh if possible.
Your team lacking a pipe hurt a lot, but you don't necessarily control that.
You may have needed MKB over Abyssal (or have both ideally) because of that Solar Crest, but you did say you were blowing the Visage up pretty quickly so that may not have mattered.
I dunno if you had Diffusal early on and sold it, but having one is pretty good vs the Sven. That item can completely nullify him in a fight before he has BKB or after his BKB has ended. An hour in I'm sure he was on 5s charge, which meant since he had no blink a Diffusal would absolutely have helped control him in fights.
Don't disregard Warlock after he ults-- stopping him from slowing everything is important in letting you engage and disengage appropriately.
They had a lot of magic/pure damage-- I'm not sure why you think BKB was bad there. BKB literally protects you from at least one aspect of every single hero on their team. Since OD was clearly the bigger problem than Sven you probably would have been fine going BKB after Manta rather than Skadi. Without watching the game I don't fully understand your item progression or choices though.
Thanks for the feedback.
Yeah my gpm should have been higher I still don't farm well in the midgame, especially not on a "slow" farmer like Spectre and when my team is fighting a lot. Should prolly just ignore people getting caught out of position instead of stopping my farming. People fought so much that I barely was able to farm more than 1 or 2 camps between fights.
Didn't get diffu, Sven was a lot split pushing and joined fights either very late or not at all. So I wouldn't be surprised if his bkb was at 8 seconds. With OD going bkb and the 2 sups being food to me anyways I didn't consider diffu being worth the pick up, so I used haunt mainly to join fights and for positioning.
Totally forgot about the diffu wl golem interaction, if that still works Diffu would have been a good pickup.
I could just stick to wl for 2 seconds and make him stop channeling his slow (or kill him). After that I don't see how he participates anything meaningful. I don't get bonded easily thanks to ultimate and manta.
I'm not sure where you see the magical damage, I killed aa with every haunt first. After that it's soul assumption and OD and visage was often my second target if I could pinpoint him. WL and Sven both are almost exclusively physical. I agree that bkb would still have been the call, when Sven started joining the fights I got slowed down by atos etc, which led to one death I should have avoided. Mainly though for the fact that it's great vs OD.
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Diffusal purge does not destroy Golems anymore.
BKB stops the following:
AA everything, including the magic damage amplification from vortex
OD everything, including pure damage orb and scaling magic damage ult
Warlock ult-- golem immolation (magic), golem flaming fists (pure)
Sven storm hammer (stun)
Visage nuke
Even if you get hit by nothing of AA or Visage you're probably a big target for Sven's stun if he doesn't use it for initiation (which without blink he may not be). With Aghs Refresher you're taking damage from the golems during the fight no matter what. And of course all of OD's damage output is blocked by BKB.
The tricky part is that without any burst damage you're unlikely to kill OD during BKB active, but in a 1v1 in a vacuum if he has BKB and you don't then he's taking almost no damage from you (most of your damage being pure or magical) while you're taking (and not reflecting to him) all of his dps. The other threat is you getting Astraled and simply removed from the fight for 4s while they wreck your team. That's on a 10s cd at level 4-- if you get Astraled as soon as you ult in, then he BKBs when you're out, then astrals you 1s after his 5s BKB is over you're spending most of the fight being pretty useless. You can't always just count on Illusions being confusing.
I would never just not kill an enemy hero just because they've gone through most of their contribution. Any time you didn't kill Warlock opens the opportunity for him to get more xp and assist-gold, which helps him get level 3 ult and his aghs refresher earlier. Any time you had to disengage after not being able to kill OD or Sven where you also didn't kill Warlock is gold and xp you and your team didn't get. You don't really have the burst damage or utility to prevent OD and Sven from doing their thing in fights, so you're not really losing anything by killing Warlock before focusing them (or disengaging). Did your team ever have an Urn? That could be urn charges you didn't give your team by not killing him, which could have made a difference in the fight or later.
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On March 30 2016 10:31 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Diffusal purge does not destroy Golems anymore.
BKB stops the following:
AA everything, including the magic damage amplification from vortex
OD everything, including pure damage orb and scaling magic damage ult
Warlock ult-- golem immolation (magic), golem flaming fists (pure)
Sven storm hammer (stun)
Visage nuke
Even if you get hit by nothing of AA or Visage you're probably a big target for Sven's stun if he doesn't use it for initiation (which without blink he may not be). With Aghs Refresher you're taking damage from the golems during the fight no matter what. And of course all of OD's damage output is blocked by BKB.
The tricky part is that without any burst damage you're unlikely to kill OD during BKB active, but in a 1v1 in a vacuum if he has BKB and you don't then he's taking almost no damage from you (most of your damage being pure or magical) while you're taking (and not reflecting to him) all of his dps. The other threat is you getting Astraled and simply removed from the fight for 4s while they wreck your team. That's on a 10s cd at level 4-- if you get Astraled as soon as you ult in, then he BKBs when you're out, then astrals you 1s after his 5s BKB is over you're spending most of the fight being pretty useless. You can't always just count on Illusions being confusing.
I would never just not kill an enemy hero just because they've gone through most of their contribution. Any time you didn't kill Warlock opens the opportunity for him to get more xp and assist-gold, which helps him get level 3 ult and his aghs refresher earlier. Any time you had to disengage after not being able to kill OD or Sven where you also didn't kill Warlock is gold and xp you and your team didn't get. You don't really have the burst damage or utility to prevent OD and Sven from doing their thing in fights, so you're not really losing anything by killing Warlock before focusing them (or disengaging). Did your team ever have an Urn? That could be urn charges you didn't give your team by not killing him, which could have made a difference in the fight or later.
Ok ty, good to know^^ Really wasn't sure about the diffu golem interaction.
I had an urn but sold it when I got an aegis. Don't think anyone else got one.
Yeah I don't think killing wl is wrong, he's just tanky for the impact he provides with aghs after his initial round of spells. So killing or driving away the OD seemed more meaningful to me for winning the fights, but I might have dealt with wl fast enough that it would have been worth it. Maybe too much support mentality here, "my team is dying I need to deal with OD to keep them alive" might be worse than the greedier choice that limits wl's growth. It's true that I couldn't do much but tank him once he activated bkb.
Most fights were terrible/super chaotic because our three strength-heroes for some reason always wanted to force fights, pushed as 3 and got initiated on. Since the enemies seemed disorganized in the same way, I haunted in and we fought 4v4 with wr being somewhere in the proximity (usually 2-3 minutes late to the fight) and Sven splitpushing.
Afaik flaming fist isnt blocked and since i'm coming from the backline for the most part, I was rarely near golems unless I wanted to kill them.
I agree that imprisonment might have been a problem, but OD just didn't counterplay reality. He used imprisonment 90% of the time defensively.
I think I was either hit by one or zero stormhammers, as mentioned before Sven was pretty much always late to the party if he even showed up at all. I manta-dodged it the one time I remember him casting it on me.
That leaves soul assumption and everything from OD. I agree that OD might have been important enough to just get bkb for him, being able to fight him 1v1 was the entire idea behind abyssal.
For some reason OD didn't want to fight the illusions, which made fighting him somewhat possible in the first place.
What would your 6-slot in a game like this look like? I started building into ac, I guess with bkb bfly would have been an option.
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On March 30 2016 11:52 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2016 10:31 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Diffusal purge does not destroy Golems anymore.
BKB stops the following:
AA everything, including the magic damage amplification from vortex
OD everything, including pure damage orb and scaling magic damage ult
Warlock ult-- golem immolation (magic), golem flaming fists (pure)
Sven storm hammer (stun)
Visage nuke
Even if you get hit by nothing of AA or Visage you're probably a big target for Sven's stun if he doesn't use it for initiation (which without blink he may not be). With Aghs Refresher you're taking damage from the golems during the fight no matter what. And of course all of OD's damage output is blocked by BKB.
The tricky part is that without any burst damage you're unlikely to kill OD during BKB active, but in a 1v1 in a vacuum if he has BKB and you don't then he's taking almost no damage from you (most of your damage being pure or magical) while you're taking (and not reflecting to him) all of his dps. The other threat is you getting Astraled and simply removed from the fight for 4s while they wreck your team. That's on a 10s cd at level 4-- if you get Astraled as soon as you ult in, then he BKBs when you're out, then astrals you 1s after his 5s BKB is over you're spending most of the fight being pretty useless. You can't always just count on Illusions being confusing.
I would never just not kill an enemy hero just because they've gone through most of their contribution. Any time you didn't kill Warlock opens the opportunity for him to get more xp and assist-gold, which helps him get level 3 ult and his aghs refresher earlier. Any time you had to disengage after not being able to kill OD or Sven where you also didn't kill Warlock is gold and xp you and your team didn't get. You don't really have the burst damage or utility to prevent OD and Sven from doing their thing in fights, so you're not really losing anything by killing Warlock before focusing them (or disengaging). Did your team ever have an Urn? That could be urn charges you didn't give your team by not killing him, which could have made a difference in the fight or later. Ok ty, good to know^^ Really wasn't sure about the diffu golem interaction. I had an urn but sold it when I got an aegis. Don't think anyone else got one. Yeah I don't think killing wl is wrong, he's just tanky for the impact he provides with aghs after his initial round of spells. So killing or driving away the OD seemed more meaningful to me for winning the fights, but I might have dealt with wl fast enough that it would have been worth it. Maybe too much support mentality here, "my team is dying I need to deal with OD to keep them alive" might be worse than the greedier choice that limits wl's growth. It's true that I couldn't do much but tank him once he activated bkb. Most fights were terrible/super chaotic because our three strength-heroes for some reason always wanted to force fights, pushed as 3 and got initiated on. Since the enemies seemed disorganized in the same way, I haunted in and we fought 4v4 with wr being somewhere in the proximity (usually 2-3 minutes late to the fight) and Sven splitpushing. Afaik flaming fist isnt blocked and since i'm coming from the backline for the most part, I was rarely near golems unless I wanted to kill them. I agree that imprisonment might have been a problem, but OD just didn't counterplay reality. He used imprisonment 90% of the time defensively. I think I was either hit by one or zero stormhammers, as mentioned before Sven was pretty much always late to the party if he even showed up at all. I manta-dodged it the one time I remember him casting it on me. That leaves soul assumption and everything from OD. I agree that OD might have been important enough to just get bkb for him, being able to fight him 1v1 was the entire idea behind abyssal. For some reason OD didn't want to fight the illusions, which made fighting him somewhat possible in the first place. What would your 6-slot in a game like this look like? I started building into ac, I guess with bkb bfly would have been an option.
Butterfly and skadi are two strong items. Evasion is really strong vs OD cause he never wants to build an MKB and hex no longer removes evasion. It also boosts the strength of your illusions, and is all around good item for you. Skadi gives you health, bkb piercing slow and gives that to haunt illusions.
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On March 30 2016 12:13 the bear jew wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2016 11:52 Blackfeather wrote:On March 30 2016 10:31 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Diffusal purge does not destroy Golems anymore.
BKB stops the following:
AA everything, including the magic damage amplification from vortex
OD everything, including pure damage orb and scaling magic damage ult
Warlock ult-- golem immolation (magic), golem flaming fists (pure)
Sven storm hammer (stun)
Visage nuke
Even if you get hit by nothing of AA or Visage you're probably a big target for Sven's stun if he doesn't use it for initiation (which without blink he may not be). With Aghs Refresher you're taking damage from the golems during the fight no matter what. And of course all of OD's damage output is blocked by BKB.
The tricky part is that without any burst damage you're unlikely to kill OD during BKB active, but in a 1v1 in a vacuum if he has BKB and you don't then he's taking almost no damage from you (most of your damage being pure or magical) while you're taking (and not reflecting to him) all of his dps. The other threat is you getting Astraled and simply removed from the fight for 4s while they wreck your team. That's on a 10s cd at level 4-- if you get Astraled as soon as you ult in, then he BKBs when you're out, then astrals you 1s after his 5s BKB is over you're spending most of the fight being pretty useless. You can't always just count on Illusions being confusing.
I would never just not kill an enemy hero just because they've gone through most of their contribution. Any time you didn't kill Warlock opens the opportunity for him to get more xp and assist-gold, which helps him get level 3 ult and his aghs refresher earlier. Any time you had to disengage after not being able to kill OD or Sven where you also didn't kill Warlock is gold and xp you and your team didn't get. You don't really have the burst damage or utility to prevent OD and Sven from doing their thing in fights, so you're not really losing anything by killing Warlock before focusing them (or disengaging). Did your team ever have an Urn? That could be urn charges you didn't give your team by not killing him, which could have made a difference in the fight or later. Ok ty, good to know^^ Really wasn't sure about the diffu golem interaction. I had an urn but sold it when I got an aegis. Don't think anyone else got one. Yeah I don't think killing wl is wrong, he's just tanky for the impact he provides with aghs after his initial round of spells. So killing or driving away the OD seemed more meaningful to me for winning the fights, but I might have dealt with wl fast enough that it would have been worth it. Maybe too much support mentality here, "my team is dying I need to deal with OD to keep them alive" might be worse than the greedier choice that limits wl's growth. It's true that I couldn't do much but tank him once he activated bkb. Most fights were terrible/super chaotic because our three strength-heroes for some reason always wanted to force fights, pushed as 3 and got initiated on. Since the enemies seemed disorganized in the same way, I haunted in and we fought 4v4 with wr being somewhere in the proximity (usually 2-3 minutes late to the fight) and Sven splitpushing. Afaik flaming fist isnt blocked and since i'm coming from the backline for the most part, I was rarely near golems unless I wanted to kill them. I agree that imprisonment might have been a problem, but OD just didn't counterplay reality. He used imprisonment 90% of the time defensively. I think I was either hit by one or zero stormhammers, as mentioned before Sven was pretty much always late to the party if he even showed up at all. I manta-dodged it the one time I remember him casting it on me. That leaves soul assumption and everything from OD. I agree that OD might have been important enough to just get bkb for him, being able to fight him 1v1 was the entire idea behind abyssal. For some reason OD didn't want to fight the illusions, which made fighting him somewhat possible in the first place. What would your 6-slot in a game like this look like? I started building into ac, I guess with bkb bfly would have been an option. Butterfly and skadi are two strong items. Evasion is really strong vs OD cause he never wants to build an MKB and hex no longer removes evasion. It also boosts the strength of your illusions, and is all around good item for you. Skadi gives you health, bkb piercing slow and gives that to haunt illusions.
Yeah were my first 2 ideas after manta, with OD getting Atos however I decided to go Skadi. I guess I could have waited for od to use atos on me to manta it, but that would have been a lot of dps on the sups that would have been lost. So without BKB I didn't feel too well going bfly against Atos.
K after checking the accuracy mechanic Bfly would still have been decent with 21% reduction. Didn't know by the time I played the game whether accuracy stacks multiplicatively or additively with evasion. Assumed it's additively (because it's weak against everything but windrun else), but according to liquipedia it's mutliplicatively.
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Sorry you're right; flaming fists aren't blocked by bkb even though they're pure.
I don't think I would have skipped Radiance this game, even if you wanted to grab Manta first.` So my first soft 6slot this game would have been phase aquila (or urn I guess) (drum if you made it) manta radiance heart/skadi. First real 6slot would be bots manta radiance heart/skadi bfly mkb/abyssal. Then you'd swap out Radiance for either daedalus or the other of abyssal/mkb you didn't build.
Skadi is really strong vs the Sven, but Heart is better vs the OD (and is better in general because of the disengage-reengage potential it offers that Spectre has so much synergy with). I prefer Heart, and you usually don't want both, but that's your call.
Butterfly is really good here, but I can see the merit in grabbing abyssal over it first, especially if you needed to fight on ~3k gold and just grabbed basher in shop, or you were sitting on gold, deliberately died without ult then bought back, bought basher with excess gold, and ulted in, etc.
If you really think this kind of progression was unrealistic, as you said you were fighting almost non-stop, you could try something like Manta Halberd Basher. I didn't list BKB anywhere, but honestly if you felt you did need it you could throw it in to any of these builds anywhere after Manta. I could definitely see Manta Radiance BKB or Manta Halberd BKB doing well here. These 3-4k gold items might be easier to finish if you're struggling to hold onto gold. I'd say it's better to have a somewhat soft 6slot (something like phase drum manta halberd bkb basher) than just a real 3slot (manta skadi abyssal).
The other item I haven't mentioned that could have helped you here is Blademail. If you notice that at least one of Sven/OD are using their BKBs before you have to fight them straight-up you can just go Blademail and use it once you're in a 1v1 with them. OD in particular will not enjoy having his orb damage reflected. Sven may not actually notice, but you can kite him and ignore him much more easily.
AC is really good on Spectre most of the time, but it's not more important than items like Radiance, Manta, Heart, maybe Refresher, etc. In this particular game it's a little lackluster, because armour doesn't protect you from OD's pure or magic damage nor from Sven's cleave damage.
edit: btw if the Atos slow is fucking you up, you could definitely have used Diffusal to remove it if you wanted to blow through Manta. I still dunno if I'd ever skip both Radiance and Diffusal in any scenario (leaning towards no, but shit happens I guess).
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On March 31 2016 02:07 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Sorry you're right; flaming fists aren't blocked by bkb even though they're pure.
I don't think I would have skipped Radiance this game, even if you wanted to grab Manta first.` So my first soft 6slot this game would have been phase aquila (or urn I guess) (drum if you made it) manta radiance heart/skadi. First real 6slot would be bots manta radiance heart/skadi bfly mkb/abyssal. Then you'd swap out Radiance for either daedalus or the other of abyssal/mkb you didn't build.
Skadi is really strong vs the Sven, but Heart is better vs the OD (and is better in general because of the disengage-reengage potential it offers that Spectre has so much synergy with). I prefer Heart, and you usually don't want both, but that's your call.
Butterfly is really good here, but I can see the merit in grabbing abyssal over it first, especially if you needed to fight on ~3k gold and just grabbed basher in shop, or you were sitting on gold, deliberately died without ult then bought back, bought basher with excess gold, and ulted in, etc.
If you really think this kind of progression was unrealistic, as you said you were fighting almost non-stop, you could try something like Manta Halberd Basher. I didn't list BKB anywhere, but honestly if you felt you did need it you could throw it in to any of these builds anywhere after Manta. I could definitely see Manta Radiance BKB or Manta Halberd BKB doing well here. These 3-4k gold items might be easier to finish if you're struggling to hold onto gold. I'd say it's better to have a somewhat soft 6slot (something like phase drum manta halberd bkb basher) than just a real 3slot (manta skadi abyssal).
The other item I haven't mentioned that could have helped you here is Blademail. If you notice that at least one of Sven/OD are using their BKBs before you have to fight them straight-up you can just go Blademail and use it once you're in a 1v1 with them. OD in particular will not enjoy having his orb damage reflected. Sven may not actually notice, but you can kite him and ignore him much more easily.
AC is really good on Spectre most of the time, but it's not more important than items like Radiance, Manta, Heart, maybe Refresher, etc. In this particular game it's a little lackluster, because armour doesn't protect you from OD's pure or magic damage nor from Sven's cleave damage.
edit: btw if the Atos slow is fucking you up, you could definitely have used Diffusal to remove it if you wanted to blow through Manta. I still dunno if I'd ever skip both Radiance and Diffusal in any scenario (leaning towards no, but shit happens I guess).
Thanks
np, dota mechanics are super confusing <.<
I went urn+drums. Honestly I think that was what kept us in the game and from loosing fights entirely between minutes 10 and 30. OD was snowballing super hard, which is not surprising since we had only two damage dealing cores and wr was never with the other 3. So the only source of damage had to be me for most of the game. Maybe I should have sticked more to the other 3, considering how defensive their heroes were and that they lacked a good target for their spells.
So yeah, I had to manfight bkbed OD every fight. Which was one of the reasons why I didn't go diffu.
I'm not used to "late" radiance yet (after drums), but that might have been the pickup anyways. Just accelerate my farming speed and allow me to get the next item faster. Also melts gravekeepers cloak, which is nice and deals magic damage to everyone. Might have forced OD to bkb earlier, which would have been great.
If I knew then how accuracy interacted with evasion I would have prolly gone bfly instead of going for ac. But yeah skipping drums for sange, going for sny first and disassemble into manta halberd might have been good.
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Gave the Arteezy build a try in a game when they had a safe-lane LD and I wanted a faster Radi. It worked out very well but I'm still not sold on it. I don't think I spend enough time in the jungle to warrant Treads/Morbid in most games, just Phase/Wand/Urn is probably a better build when you want a faster Radi timing.
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On March 31 2016 06:43 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
Gave the Arteezy build a try in a game when they had a safe-lane LD and I wanted a faster Radi. It worked out very well but I'm still not sold on it. I don't think I spend enough time in the jungle to warrant Treads/Morbid in most games, just Phase/Wand/Urn is probably a better build when you want a faster Radi timing.
Its also probalby better for pubs to go phase wand urn and consider either aquila or drums, just because you can help ganks work out that are otherwise poorly executed.
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On March 31 2016 06:43 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
Gave the Arteezy build a try in a game when they had a safe-lane LD and I wanted a faster Radi. It worked out very well but I'm still not sold on it. I don't think I spend enough time in the jungle to warrant Treads/Morbid in most games, just Phase/Wand/Urn is probably a better build when you want a faster Radi timing.
I might be wrong on this, but imo phase is way too good vs LD to skip them. Daggering him and the bear (to keep the bear from teleporting and removing your desolate) gives you an easy kill every support rotation unless he gets a lucky entangle or your sup stuns too early. At least on even exp.
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Thoughts on itemization for early-game sustain?
Is Urn still viable? I really, really, really don't like going Vanguard unless there's a really good reason (e.g. troll, WR, illusion hero). I've tried getting a casual ring of health, which *kind* of works when I'm getting pressured in lane heavily, but has felt really bad / slow in the games where I've tried it.
...But Urn has felt really underwhelming since the most recent nerfs to the item, combined with the cool-down increase on Spectre's ultimate... Especially when your team is behind, which lets face it, is most of the time because you're on Spectre.
I've seen MoM popping up a few times in high MMR games... haven't tried it myself yet but it seems like it could be very good (positive effects on sustain, farming speed, and teamfight damage) + your lvl 10 talent has a +5 armor branch to offset to active if you're really worried about it. Haunt into the backlines and desolate down a squishy support.
Thoughts?
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phase urn, almost every game until you see a good difference in doing something else.
i dont think the new recipe is a nerf, raindrops can let you skip aquila, but certainly aquila is more valuable for farming than an urn. you're asking for sustain though so
in my opinion, MoM would only work if you're ahead. it is 2k total and you must save up for the first 1.1k component.
your other option is hood and i feel you have to look at this value by understanding where you will be farming and which hero(es) are going to be waiting to see if they can try and kill you.
finally, if you can get away with supplanting urn for wand, i think that is value when your team is farmy and low kill potential.
so in order (of likelihood) for that purchase, i would do:
Urn
Aquila
Wand
RoH
Hood
MoM
straight radiance rush
the real answer is, however, whatever works for you and makes you comfortable playing. some people still do treads + RoH jungling until radiance. some people still rush radiance like it were 2 major patches ago.
the hero's strength early on is to kill steal and relocate lanes to farm safely, that is why urn is good for its cost, and nothing can really take its place for this hero.
but you are right about the one common thing across all spectre games being that you won't be hitting creeps very often during laning.
if you are lacking experience, try booting up a replay and checking when and where the spectre player buys their items. this is important as RoH and raindrops are more valuable the earlier you get them, as are phase boots if you can manage to get them early enough to impact the lane (5m or so).
it's not entirely up to you when you get the money for these items during laning, but every detail matters regardless.
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Imho MoM is an item if the game is either going really badly or your team is doing really well.
If your team is stomping left right center and your tempo mid (QoP f.e.) is taking off and killing ppl all the time, MoM allows you to amp the damage of haunt a little more. It delays your radiance only by a bit, but it should give you ~2 autoattacks more on average and is useful in TFs if the enemies lack lockdown.
If your game is terrible because they controlled your lane and now your jungle and you are estimating a ~30minute radiance, going MoM allows you to camp their jungle infinitely (if they don't have a mobile/stealth roamer/initiator). It's not a bad farming item and the disassemble is good too.
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There was a pro match recently (i think it was secret vs someone) where the Spectre went brown boots --> aquila ---> MoM --> radiance
She was in poverty mode, but it the team made space and it worked out... it let her farm waves much faster, minimizing the amount of time she was vulnerable in lane. And ofc the sustain & movement speed helped alot. What I think is great about MoM is that it has scaling potential as you accumulate more damage and levels.
That being said, after trying out a few builds I'm back to Phase/Urn --> whatever I feel is next best item (usually radiance, but early blademail has been clutch a few times).
But the longer CD on her ult makes that build REALLY hurt if you can't score some charges with your first haunt. I play very conservatively in solo-q so usually its not an issue.. but when it is, man it feels bad...man
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mom is for catchup with little fights happening
Phase Drums are really good with a ganking team that wants to fight a lot
You can TP to figths now too not just haunt in
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If they have magic burst supports you get drop anyways tho
It always feels ultra cost effective going for an urn from that last raindrop charge
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tbh i dont think you can properly judge spectre builds unless ur at a very high level of play like 6k+ or something
because that hero can win games when crazy far behind if a team doesnt know how to end the game. and nobody does till u gte to high 5k or something it certainly doesnt happen at low 5k
items pretty much dont matter
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mmm i agree with everything except items not mattering. they most certainly do matter.
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On June 23 2017 00:02 ahw wrote:
tbh i dont think you can properly judge spectre builds unless ur at a very high level of play like 6k+ or something
because that hero can win games when crazy far behind if a team doesnt know how to end the game. and nobody does till u gte to high 5k or something it certainly doesnt happen at low 5k
items pretty much dont matter
Lolwut
The items are really important. In case of Spectre especially as you can go so many ways
Sometimes you e.g. get to go to midas at 17 minutes and it's the right play
Other times Vanguard build's good etc. etc. and you need to react to lineups and how the game is doing if fights will be happening etc.
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On June 23 2017 23:29 LemOn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2017 00:02 ahw wrote:
tbh i dont think you can properly judge spectre builds unless ur at a very high level of play like 6k+ or something
because that hero can win games when crazy far behind if a team doesnt know how to end the game. and nobody does till u gte to high 5k or something it certainly doesnt happen at low 5k
items pretty much dont matter Lolwut The items are really important. In case of Spectre especially as you can go so many ways Sometimes you e.g. get to go to midas at 17 minutes and it's the right play Other times Vanguard build's good etc. etc. and you need to react to lineups and how the game is doing if fights will be happening etc.
Yeah but I was trying to say is decision making on spec is going to trump item builds almost every time, more so than most heroes. Probably more than any hero in dota
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On June 24 2017 01:21 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2017 23:29 LemOn wrote:On June 23 2017 00:02 ahw wrote:
tbh i dont think you can properly judge spectre builds unless ur at a very high level of play like 6k+ or something
because that hero can win games when crazy far behind if a team doesnt know how to end the game. and nobody does till u gte to high 5k or something it certainly doesnt happen at low 5k
items pretty much dont matter Lolwut The items are really important. In case of Spectre especially as you can go so many ways Sometimes you e.g. get to go to midas at 17 minutes and it's the right play Other times Vanguard build's good etc. etc. and you need to react to lineups and how the game is doing if fights will be happening etc. Yeah but I was trying to say is decision making on spec is going to trump item builds almost every time, more so than most heroes. Probably more than any hero in dota
So you consider my 6 Atos Spectre build viable? (This is not a serious build.)
Item builds is what cuts 10 minutes out of the long turtle time until you can turn it around.
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On June 23 2017 00:02 ahw wrote:
tbh i dont think you can properly judge spectre builds unless ur at a very high level of play like 6k+ or something
because that hero can win games when crazy far behind if a team doesnt know how to end the game. and nobody does till u gte to high 5k or something it certainly doesnt happen at low 5k
items pretty much dont matter
I know exactly what you mean, I've been in a lot of 3-4k games where people were like "they have won 3 lanes, taken a rax and we can basically give up now", while we are 2 good fights from the point where fights get hard for them. And often the enemies give us that first fight because they fall into the cocky feed mode and just barely get their shit together for the second one.
So basically spectre games often come down to a single smoke gank at <5k after falling 20k behind in the early game. Itemization increases your chances in the smoke gank and the fight before that, but in the end Spectre in a hard game is a support Zeus level impact hero before she gets her core items up and after that likely the strongest core in the game.
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On June 24 2017 17:03 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2017 01:21 ahw wrote:On June 23 2017 23:29 LemOn wrote:On June 23 2017 00:02 ahw wrote:
tbh i dont think you can properly judge spectre builds unless ur at a very high level of play like 6k+ or something
because that hero can win games when crazy far behind if a team doesnt know how to end the game. and nobody does till u gte to high 5k or something it certainly doesnt happen at low 5k
items pretty much dont matter Lolwut The items are really important. In case of Spectre especially as you can go so many ways Sometimes you e.g. get to go to midas at 17 minutes and it's the right play Other times Vanguard build's good etc. etc. and you need to react to lineups and how the game is doing if fights will be happening etc. Yeah but I was trying to say is decision making on spec is going to trump item builds almost every time, more so than most heroes. Probably more than any hero in dota So you consider my 6 Atos Spectre build viable? (This is not a serious build.) Item builds is what cuts 10 minutes out of the long turtle time until you can turn it around.
Is it worth a post saying that if you do dumb builds you will probably lose?
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On June 24 2017 23:25 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2017 00:02 ahw wrote:
tbh i dont think you can properly judge spectre builds unless ur at a very high level of play like 6k+ or something
because that hero can win games when crazy far behind if a team doesnt know how to end the game. and nobody does till u gte to high 5k or something it certainly doesnt happen at low 5k
items pretty much dont matter I know exactly what you mean, I've been in a lot of 3-4k games where people were like "they have won 3 lanes, taken a rax and we can basically give up now", while we are 2 good fights from the point where fights get hard for them. And often the enemies give us that first fight because they fall into the cocky feed mode and just barely get their shit together for the second one. So basically spectre games often come down to a single smoke gank at <5k after falling 20k behind in the early game. Itemization increases your chances in the smoke gank and the fight before that, but in the end Spectre in a hard game is a support Zeus level impact hero before she gets her core items up and after that likely the strongest core in the game.
I played a game like that just last week. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3263473614
Spec lost her lane and had first item pipe at 15 min. Our team was generally getting wrecked and was well behind in gold. Then 25 min spec got diffusal and we had one solid break even fight that benefited us a lot as we were behind in the game. Spec got fat, we wiped them 2 or 3 times, and by 40 min in we were well in control of the game.
As an aside, dust is one of the best items spectre can carry. In the game I linked spectre consistently carried dust and it really crushed BH's mid game value.
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I feel like the Spectre might be one of the stronger heroes this patch. Her talent tree is somewhat useful and I feel like it's kind of easy to recover between the 10-20 minute mark with haunt ganks. The vision reduction creates so much chaos and makes the hero super hard to play against in late game team fights. The haunt initiation allows your own team to position themselves aggressively in fights.
Safe laning with this hero is still very hard, since you lose 1v1 to literally any random generic offlane hero. You also lack burst damage in the mid game with spectre compared to other carries. I itembuilds are highly situational, but generally you need to make 3 important choices dependant on how you wanna play the early game.
1. Am I building urn? This choice comes down to if you think you will be fighting a lot and can make use of haunt to gank alot, also if it is a very good wand game it can be hard to fit in urn into your slots.
2. Can i go mask of madness? Mom solves your damage issues around the 10-20 minute mark in the game, but in a game where you are dying a lot or its very risky to go in you probably shouldn't buy this snowballing item.
3. Radi? Radi is a big commitment and delays your power curve in a very critical time of the game (in the current patch, the fights after the laning stage collapses feel very important). Generally you want radi in a slow game, but sometimes an early diffusal or manta can make you play a lot more aggressive with your team.
I'm not sure on Spectre lvl 15 talents, spectral dagger cd reduction can be super strong, as it has no down time. I'm not sure what characteristics of a game would justify taking cd reduction over stats, maybe anyone knows.
These are my thoughts on the spectre hero after playing her on EU W server for 15 games. https://www.opendota.com/players/75220691/matches?hero_id=67
anyway spectre op free +25 thx
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The early laning parts of spectre is one of the biggest problems with the hero, along with the inability to take any meaningful objectives with the hero. ie Towers/Roshan
A lot of the stronger carries, like Luna, Morph etc are able to zone out offlaners effectively given a 2 level advantage, and deny a lot of xp from the offlaner.
For a hero like spec, you can kiss goodbye to the notion, and once the supports leave the offlaner is able to get anything and everything he wants from the lane, even if he is unable to stop spec from farming.
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@Kaj depends on the game, spec with a lvl advantage and phase can still harass decently against low lvl offlaners. But I agree that the level-difference has to be larger than with most cores and her killing power is very low.
@paladin-: Exactly the opposite estimation of spec that I have this patch. It's a lot easier to go HG in 7.07, it's more punishing to loose towers since shrines are further back in the jungle and bounties further to the outside and overall the map is more open. So her pathing abuse is less good, the pacing is terrible for the hero and if you loose a few fights that nowadays often start happening at 15 minutes you straight up loose the game.
To add to the pain PMS and IT are gone, diffu and mom got nerfed and haunt damage got nerfed.
Her talent tree is roughly the same, maybe a bit stronger late. It's more well-rounded and I like it more, but I can't really say that her lvl 10 and lvl 15 are better in hard games.
That being said spec is still a pubstomper and her winrates are great, especially when you play on low mmr.
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On December 07 2017 00:30 Kaj wrote:
The early laning parts of spectre is one of the biggest problems with the hero, along with the inability to take any meaningful objectives with the hero. ie Towers/Roshan
With the illusion changes to Roshan, Spectre is actually quite good at Rosh post-manta with desolate. Not exactly in the upper echolons of rosh heroes, but significantly more impressive than before.
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So what has to happen for spectre to be relevant in the proscene, it got picked vs Og, got a ton of farm yet they just ignored him anyways and felt useless
Guess the hero concept, long ultimate and little building kill potential combined with liability in lane just means it will forever be a pub crushing ugly duckling
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I'd argue she is pretty relevant right now, saw some plays in the closed quals. She got picked 6 times in EU alone so far and 19 times across the closed quals. But her winrate is garbage (32%).
I think an ultimate cd reduction would make her competitive in an instant, her biggest weakness along with her shitty lane is that she has so much downtime.
But if i had to guess I'd put my money on a dagger, IF tends to chain-buff the same abilities. It has two talents that see fairly little play, so if the slow went up by 10% across the board it would reach 50% with the talent. Which still doesn't sound really good until you think about the fact that spec is almost going to be hasted on treads manta.
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another spec draft, another autoloss almost in eu grand finals
it's either the weak teams pickin it and getting dismantled
or a fringe 4-5th pick
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Looks like the teams have figured Spectre drafts out
Either
1) Liquid draft it with CM into a shitty lane where he gets little farm
Spec is super behind BUT they get brood + pugna, two huge space making heroes that just let spectre catch up
And the CM AURA allows him to do that with the dagger cd talent
or
2) VP Dual lane but put a super strong laner like Chen with him who just sacks his early hame to babysit instead of farming jungle
and
3) both games fast blademail before radiance was a thing, ramzes even goes into fight build vs gyro + ember squishy heroes
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I am not sure is Spectre is at TI to stay.
But I totally agree with you at the VP laning approach. Spectre and Chen won that lane with ease vs Gyro and Io.
I am not sure if the blademail after that lane win was the optimal item. Ramzees and VP were in a position when they could hold for a radiance. But the Secret draft had a very strong mid game timing and once they got their levels VP was overpowered by a 5 man deathball.
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well
the problem is that they realized their teamfight will never be great
especially as wisp gets farmed and TA will be more and more useless
And then get Pipe on top of mek
So he wanted to fight early
Yeah so I feel like Spec after today is relegated again to a fringe last pick
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I think the problem is that it's very hard to balance the early dominance Spectre needs to farm with not falling off so hard that Spec has to do everything herself.
She is strong lategame, but mainly at killing the backline and doing spread damage, a lot of carries will still win or draw the manfight against a 6-slotted Spectre especially with silver edge or lifesteal. So if there isn't a second scaling core you still fall off a cliff even with Spectre.
Which is different to an AM f.e. who with freefarm is a great manfighter once he comes online.
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Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar.
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spec is pretty good in pubs atm
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On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar.
There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well.
Also +15 desolate is rarely the better choice.
And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta.
This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well.
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On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well.
Wat
Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily?
And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers.
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On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well.
I've always figured if I'm getting a vanguard the +15 desolate is better. If I'm not going vanguard I could understand the opposite.
Although I didn't really consider how +5 HP regen compounds with heart/manta and maybe Skadi strength multiplier on HP regen passively. If it were to say, triple that regen maybe it could be good late game.
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On August 25 2018 22:09 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well. Wat Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily? And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers.
That doesn't sound right. I'm pretty sure TB is a hard counter for spectre. Pushes hard and deals heavy damage and can just sunder away half of spectres HP without triggering any dispersion damage(I think?).
The reflection damage is also good vs spectre too. Not AM bad, but still pretty strong.
The only thing that would make him better is if he was a natural SE carrier. But you can just combo SE with other heroes on your team and Spectre should melt due to her low armor.
As the other guy I responded to said. Spectre's stat gains are pretty terrible. It's the dispersion that makes her tanky, once you break that she is a squishbox and there is no itemizing against break except to hope your team can save you when you are broken.
That's also the reason why sometimes the haunt damage could be better than dispersion at level 25. If your dispersion is down because they have 2-3 SE carriers or heroes with break like SD/Viper, might as well get the most out of your haunt.
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On August 25 2018 22:22 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 22:09 ahw wrote:On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well. Wat Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily? And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers. That doesn't sound right. I'm pretty sure TB is a hard counter for spectre. Pushes hard and deals heavy damage and can just sunder away half of spectres HP without triggering any dispersion damage(I think?). The reflection damage is also good vs spectre too. Not AM bad, but still pretty strong. The only thing that would make him better is if he was a natural SE carrier. But you can just combo SE with other heroes on your team and Spectre should melt due to her low armor. As the other guy I responded to said. Spectre's stat gains are pretty terrible. It's the dispersion that makes her tanky, once you break that she is a squishbox and there is no itemizing against break except to hope your team can save you when you are broken. That's also the reason why sometimes the haunt damage could be better than dispersion at level 25. If your dispersion is down because they have 2-3 SE carriers or heroes with break like SD/Viper, might as well get the most out of your haunt.
Tb technically hard counters any agility core but it doesn’t play out that way
Its less about the hero and more about how games play out now. Spec is useful all game because haunt let’s you catch up and farm and mak plays when it should be impossible to.
Dota is so team oriented right now with emphasis on building xp on your 4 and 5 positions that team fight heroes like spec are just always useful.
Same with having 2-3 SE carriers on a team. Most team comps can’t support that until ultra late. Silver edge is a good item but most heroes can’t afford making one early.
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On August 25 2018 22:09 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well. Wat Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily? And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers.
*+15 desolate.
I'm catching up pretty on the matches just now, TI times are terrible for EU this year. EG vs Liquid is next on the list.
So for now I'll just quote Black^ when LGD counterpicked TB against Spec (resulting in Spec never feeling like that dominant lategame threat in the game) saying that it's "such a nice MU for TB.". She can't do jack about sunder, she has way lower dps, TB doesn't care about dispersions reflection due to his crazy armor and he often has illus around him.
On August 25 2018 22:48 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 22:22 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On August 25 2018 22:09 ahw wrote:On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well. Wat Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily? And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers. That doesn't sound right. I'm pretty sure TB is a hard counter for spectre. Pushes hard and deals heavy damage and can just sunder away half of spectres HP without triggering any dispersion damage(I think?). The reflection damage is also good vs spectre too. Not AM bad, but still pretty strong. The only thing that would make him better is if he was a natural SE carrier. But you can just combo SE with other heroes on your team and Spectre should melt due to her low armor. As the other guy I responded to said. Spectre's stat gains are pretty terrible. It's the dispersion that makes her tanky, once you break that she is a squishbox and there is no itemizing against break except to hope your team can save you when you are broken. That's also the reason why sometimes the haunt damage could be better than dispersion at level 25. If your dispersion is down because they have 2-3 SE carriers or heroes with break like SD/Viper, might as well get the most out of your haunt. Tb technically hard counters any agility core but it doesn’t play out that way Its less about the hero and more about how games play out now. Spec is useful all game because haunt let’s you catch up and farm and mak plays when it should be impossible to. Dota is so team oriented right now with emphasis on building xp on your 4 and 5 positions that team fight heroes like spec are just always useful.
Same with having 2-3 SE carriers on a team. Most team comps can’t support that until ultra late. Silver edge is a good item but most heroes can’t afford making one early.
precisely my point, Spec is a good teamfighter and catch up due to that, but she is not a great 1v1 manfighter.
And usually by the time Spectre becomes a massive threat natural SE carriers can afford one.
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On August 25 2018 23:24 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 22:09 ahw wrote:On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well. Wat Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily? And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers. *+15 desolate. I'm catching up pretty on the matches just now, TI times are terrible for EU this year. EG vs Liquid are next on the list. So for now I'll just quote Black^ when LGD counterpicked TB against Spec (resulting in Spec never feeling like that dominant lategame threat in the game) saying that it's "such a nice MU for TB.". She can't do jack about sunder, she has way lower dps, TB doesn't care about dispersions reflection due to his crazy armor and he often has illus around him.
Yea I’ll agree that on paper tb matches up really well but I guess what I’m trying to say is specs toolkit is much better in this meta where tbs is out of place
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yeah I don't argue with that. Imo TB is situational this meta, but I agree that what he provides and how he plays out this meta is completely different (outside of the lategame aspect).
My initial point was just about Spec not being a great manfighter, which sometimes lets her fall off lategame when she has troubles killing cores off and her teammates are too early game centric to provide much later on (Huskar + Pugna + Chen f.e.). Cause then she haunts the supps, while her lane domination team looses the 4v3 and she has to fight 2v1/3v1, which she will likely loose when a silver edge or a strong agi carry or just two well scaling cores are in the game.
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On August 25 2018 22:48 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 22:22 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On August 25 2018 22:09 ahw wrote:On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well. Wat Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily? And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers. That doesn't sound right. I'm pretty sure TB is a hard counter for spectre. Pushes hard and deals heavy damage and can just sunder away half of spectres HP without triggering any dispersion damage(I think?). The reflection damage is also good vs spectre too. Not AM bad, but still pretty strong. The only thing that would make him better is if he was a natural SE carrier. But you can just combo SE with other heroes on your team and Spectre should melt due to her low armor. As the other guy I responded to said. Spectre's stat gains are pretty terrible. It's the dispersion that makes her tanky, once you break that she is a squishbox and there is no itemizing against break except to hope your team can save you when you are broken. That's also the reason why sometimes the haunt damage could be better than dispersion at level 25. If your dispersion is down because they have 2-3 SE carriers or heroes with break like SD/Viper, might as well get the most out of your haunt. Tb technically hard counters any agility core but it doesn’t play out that way Its less about the hero and more about how games play out now. Spec is useful all game because haunt let’s you catch up and farm and mak plays when it should be impossible to. Dota is so team oriented right now with emphasis on building xp on your 4 and 5 positions that team fight heroes like spec are just always useful. Same with having 2-3 SE carriers on a team. Most team comps can’t support that until ultra late. Silver edge is a good item but most heroes can’t afford making one early.
Then your argument is that spectre is just strong right now due to tempo. It still sounds like out of all carries TB tends to do better vs her for a variety of reasons compared to other carries.
You also addressed 1 of about 4 reasons for why TB is good against spec. Sunder is a huge part of why he is good against her for the same reason necro is good against her. You can dig through a huge portion of her HP without incurring dispersion damage without the need for break. Dispersion is basically her whole late game.
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Sadly, spectre is clearly getting the nerhammer next patch
It already is the best pub hero especially in crap under 4k tier
And now even pros after like half a damn year figured how to build the team around her even when lanes are heavily contested and win
I'm hating this since I got like 63% in solo Q as 4.1k on her
At least my other 62% her Jugg will get buffed since it stopped being a hero even unless like a phoenix is picked and no counter is in the pro scene
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She has a 60% winrate. I doubt that be described as sadly . Get your games in while you can.
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On August 28 2018 04:04 LemOn wrote:
And now even pros after like half a damn year figured how to build the team around her even when lanes are heavily contested and win
I'm hating this since I got like 63% in solo Q as 4.1k on her
I had the exact same thing happen to me. I used to abuse Luna pos1 and got a lot of mmr with her. Then the pros caught words of my performance and started to emulate in tournaments. Then she got nerfed (wasn't too bad, but still).
I was starting to develop the same concerns with Ursa, however this TI wasn't that great for him and the meta evolving was seemingly enought to contain him, without the need for a targeted patch. So we'll see. Please no nerf Ursa, he just only got out of his cave.
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Yeah same I uses to spam luna too with like 64% then it dropped to 50
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How bad are the 7.19b nerfs?
I think that the lingering dagger effect is the big one.
But the dispersion and desolate radius nerfs are kind of small (imo), i was expecting a dispertion % reduction or a nerf for the lvl 20 and 25 talents. Laning phase and late game looks the same. You have a little more room to counterplay as an opponent, but I still think that haunt is gonna keep killing everyone out of position, and Spectre is gonna keep being the most tanky carry in the game.
Maybe a 1 % decrease in winrate??
Edit: Already a -4% in dotabuff, still 56% wr (balanced right?)
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The lingering dagger nerf makes comebacks a lot harder because it becomes way easier to hunt the Spectre down and that's kinda the hero you want to start the fight on anyways. If specs team wins 4v5 anyways it doesn't matter much and you can still come back with teamfights. But mobility nerfs always hurt.
I think the dispersion change is pretty huge, dispersion always was a large portion of her damage. I assume it still scales linearly, which would mean that f.e. a target 500 range away would only take ~30% of what you used to.
To be fair SE is the lategame way to take a Spectre down, so that interaction doesn't change in any way. But it's easier to focus her down without it and not die.
Desolate was always gimpy and now is even more gimpy. % wise it's a lot, but it's not what makes the hero strong, so I don't think it matters much. It hurts the manta-jump though.
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Let's all be honest this nerfs are kind of small and well deserved but not enough, Spectre is super strong still, the "strong by design" type of hero, if the team against Spectre cant coordinate to break hg between 30-40 minutes game becomes super hard.
Spectre winrate after lvl 20 is almost 65% and after lvl 25 75%, you just need to survive until then.
I play Spectre (3.5-4k bracket ) and always the same happens: the enemy team dont finish the game at 25 minutes, then in the next 10 minutes they lose 2 teamfights or trade even and then the only thing i have to do for the rest of the game is save for buyback. No other core have this kind of "play" available, i dont even need to be "good" just resilient and wait for an openning.
Maybe as long as haunt and dispersion remain the same Spectre will be like this in pubs. And without a rework the only possible "nerf" is through a change in the game pace with a meta rewarding death balls and all in push strats ending the game before 30 minutes.
Desolate was always gimpy and now is even more gimpy. % wise it's a lot, but it's not what makes the hero strong, so I don't think it matters much. It hurts the manta-jump though.
The manta jump + desolate procs for me its Spectre's ace in the midgame. Radiance is for sure annoying but as a team you can plan to outlast (in midgame) the haunt with a pipe and regen auras. But i feel that manta is the best item for bursting anyone (manta is out and suddenly noone is safe alone in the map), and the funny thing is that even in late game you can shred a core out of position with just manta.
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Who would have guessed, spec became firstphaseban in the finals Also agreeing with ironcell here; the hero is still very very good.
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You got to realise it was virtually never picked in prodota
And became a situational pick during TI
Only 1st pick ban hero in the grand finals
These nerfs should be enough to send her back to fringe pick in programes
And sub 60% wr in pubs, which seems good enough to me
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Garbage hero made even worse. She was never good, hard countered by many agility heroes like TB, Slark, PA, Void, etc...
I'd never want to play her in a serious game where I'm planning on actually winning.
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hero is good because you can farm while your team smokes or push and still be there for the fight
in an era with carry having to recover from a poor laning phase its a pretty good skillset
On September 14 2018 03:46 PlayerofDota wrote:
Garbage hero made even worse. She was never good, hard countered by many agility heroes like TB, Slark, PA, Void, etc...
I'd never want to play her in a serious game where I'm planning on actually winning.
Ye thats probably why you shouldn't post in the strategy forum unless ur asking something
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On September 14 2018 03:46 PlayerofDota wrote:
Garbage hero made even worse. She was never good, hard countered by many agility heroes like TB, Slark, PA, Void, etc...
I'd never want to play her in a serious game where I'm planning on actually winning.
Are you sure that those heroes counter Spectre? Maybe in a 1v1 before 35 minutes, but Spectre has 2 huge advantages over those:
1. Spectre is expected to lose lane and recover haunting, but very few agility heroes can recover from a lost lane.
All these are bkb carrys. If they have teamfight presence they also have long cds (Void and TB) and most of them had bad buybacks. Most of them can be countered by a balanced support cast, kited, controlled and killed doing nothing, Dota is 5v5 after all.
2.Spectre is almost the best buyback carry vs all these "counters". And that potential play can top almost everything, ask for this to any Spectre player in this forum (and to EG at TI).
If you want to climb in this patch, Spectre has answers for everything, is easy to execute, and is a consistent pick. I can only think about Meepo, Brood, or Visage being better, and all these are last picks in pubs.
Also in what bracket PA is a counter of Spectre? Its an awful matchup, you either snowball from min 10 or you lose. Dotabuff give a 40% wr for PA thats a really bad matchup numbers.
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its hard to take seriously someone who suggest picking slark tbh
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what build do you guys suggest these days if you're expected to get 30-40 last hits in lane?
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It all depends
You basically go wand+boots
Rest is dynamic based on lanes, how the game's going and team compositions
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I think Aquilla is still pretty much core, stats and regen are still very nice on the hero and since you haunt to fights the armor aura is a nice cherrytop. Urn isn't really viable with the haunt cd and you need a small mana item.
I haven't really played the hero since the patch, Manta and BM are nerfed, which used to be your early options. Could see building an early vanguard/drums into diffu now if you want to fight early.
If I think about it that way, all of Spec's early-mid item options barring radiance received direct or indirect nerfs alongside 7 hero nerfs.
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Urn's definitely still viable in the right game
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Ppl still picking this hero left right and center, treads aquila wand manta diffu seems to be the go2 build
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On September 17 2018 00:04 LemOn wrote:Urn's definitely still viable in the right game
Would you mind explaining why? Imo Spec isn't really that good at joining fights anymore until she finished manta or radiance and even then mostly want to do it when she has haunt, so I'd much rather have it on a roaming 4 or roaming mid like qw Invoker. And in terms of stats it's just inferior to Aquilla. I guess it has double the regen.
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On September 18 2018 04:29 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2018 00:04 LemOn wrote:Urn's definitely still viable in the right game Would you mind explaining why? Imo Spec isn't really that good at joining fights anymore until she finished manta or radiance and even then mostly want to do it when she has haunt, so I'd much rather have it on a roaming 4 or roaming mid like qw Invoker. And in terms of stats it's just inferior to Aquilla. I guess it has double the regen.
In lanes where you have kill potential it's really big to get charges, and even 1 of them is big in first haunt. It has a great gradual buildup with raindrop, ROP, circlet and you get it ahead of anyone and the regen is really big if you get charges.
The reason why you see aquila 100% in pro games and rarely urn is because spectre gets always countered in lane by physical hard to kill range heroes and is laned with defensive supports, vs ench/wr, weaver etc. you just have to go aquila for the stats + armor from agility and spec almost never has kill potential in the forced defensive dual lanes.
Even though armor is actually the same now with urn, who knew :D
Another thing is Spirit vessel is needed vs alch, heals in almost every progame and Spec doesn't really want to upgrade urn and support in progames almost always go for it. That's definitely not the case in pubs, that's why it should remain a situational pick there.
It goes to all the other items btw, Urn/Aquila and then manta/radiance/vanguard/blademail/diffusal even occasional midas and drums really make the difference on the hero and you have to adapt every game
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Firebolt145/HeroPics/Spectre_Large.png)
![[image loading]](http://snag.gy/CSdGJ.jpg)
