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On June 30 2014 17:12 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 15:31 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote:
I've always thought of it as an item you would only get if you have no tide/sk/etc since its only really useful for burn damage from haunt. I honestly avoid getting it like the plague since its build up is forever, it flops late game, and without haunt it does nothing. I honestly feel I do more damage with Diffusal/Heart/Butterfly in team fights as I can 3v5 their team at any point rather than wait for haunt. Is their some pro strat I am not getting? If you look at how fights play out, Radiance does more damage than any other item except a rapier. If enemy supports get behind at all, you will accidentally kill them quite often with a Radiance. Spectre is also one of the worst carry heroes at farming without a radiance, possibly even worse than Chaos Knight. A reasonable Radiance timing can get you 9-10 cs/min by 30-40 min, while you'd be happy with 5 cs/min going Diffusal first. Thus Radiance Spectre is THE lategame item because it gets you the farm to get 6 slotted - plus the damage is still very relevant until 60+ min games with farmed supports. The only time you ever don't get a radiance is if your t3s are under siege and you don't have a relic, because Diffusal will rarely let you comeback the way radiance can. If you go Diffusal on Spectre that's basically saying he was the wrong hero for the game.
Ohhhhhhh. Now I get it. I always play Spectre as survive in lane, maybe get a few kills. Get Diffusal drums. Than pick off lone heros in lane using haunt or poofing into teamfight and snowballing from hero kills. Is it necessary to get rad after diffusal drums or at that point should I go heart into butterfly?
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On June 30 2014 23:46 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 22:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 30 2014 21:45 Ramiz1989 wrote:On June 30 2014 21:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 30 2014 19:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Played Spectre quite a bit and was testing a lot of builds.
To be honest, I didn't like Refresher as second item at all, you just aren't doing enough damage with illusions if you aren't way too much ahead. What works for me so far is to go for Phaseboots, Radiance into Manta/Diffusal or both, and then get Refresher as third/forth item.
My build was changing a lot depending on the game and how much I was harassed and how good my farm was. Last Spectre game I'd played, I had terrible laneing stage, and was ganked a lot, while my team started to die a lot. I went for Vanguard(which I usually disagree with but it is quite situational and here it was very good), Blademail and started to gank with mates. The recover from early game happened when I was farming jungle with just Vanguard, Phase and Magic stick, while my courier was flying to me to give me Blademail. Lina, Ogre and Enigma ganked me, Lina used Eul on me to set up stun and in that moment courier gave me Blademail. When I fell to the ground, I activated it, Ogre and Lina killed themself, I escaped literally with 50 HP and my mates arrived and killed Enigma.
After that I went for Diffusal and Manta and then Refresher(which was like 5th item in this case even though first 2 weren't really big items) and ended up with 20-4 in the end in the game that we were losing.
My conclusion:
-Radiance really is the most important item on Spectre.
-If you didn't get Radiance around minute 25-30 at worst possible scenario, I am not sure you should get it at all.
-If you can't farm Radiance, going for early game ganking builds is worth it, Phase/Treads with Drums/Vang/Blademail(or any combination of these three) are good options. If you aren't going Radiance because of bad early game, you should watch for ganks with these items to make a comeback if possible since your farm will be quite slow without Radiance.
-From my experience in most cases leveling up Desolate first and then Dagger is a lot better than vice versa. Dagger costs a lot of mana, you won't be able to spam it nor farm with it as it deals poor damage anyway. With maxed Desolate your Haunt illusions deal a lot of damage in the early game and can kill someone without a need to reality to them, as moving out of the lane to get one kill in most cases isn't worth it all.
-Refresher is amazing, but as I said, not as second item. If you have solid early game you can get Ring of Health just for the regen, go straight into Radiance and then Manta/Diffusal/Skadi whatever you think is needed for the game and then you can get Refresher as third/forth item.
I disagree with guys saying "if you want to play early game ganking Spectre, you should pick another hero" or something along those lines. It is more like that I am forced to play Spectre like that if I had bad early game, because I have higher chances to win if I get a lot smaller, tanky items and go for ganks then if I try to farm my Radiance and get it around 35-40 minute.
Happened quite a lot in my games and going for Radiance when heavy behind was never a good choice. I think the refresher build is only meant as a straight rush after a fast radiance. Otherwise it's effectiveness diminishes rapidly. IE: a 16-19 minute radiance --> refresher. You can't get a 30 minute radiance then get the refresher because I think it would be too weak then. As a side note, I think Radiance --> yasha --> refresher is probably the most optimal item path because of the huge bonus you get from any sort of speed boost. I also think treads is probably your boot of choice, particularly if you go the SNY route. I disagree that Refresher is losing effectiveness later in the game, I think that it is just stronger and stronger if the game goes on because of your other items, of course up to the point when you are 6 slotted and when it can't get better than that. But when you have like, Radiance, Manta, Diffusal, Refresher and Etheral Blade/Butterfly(or both), your Illusions are hitting like a truck. I agree about Radiance -> Yasha -> Refresher, you don't really have to finish whole Manta or S&Y. About fast Radiance into Refresher, it could work but you barely have 700 mana without other items if you just get like Boots, Radiance, Refresher and Magic stick at that point, it could be troublesome if you aren't in base. From my experience, if you go for Radiance and then straight into Refresher, and enemy team with Meka for example decide to push as 5, your Radiance + Refresher isn't doing much and you can't fight them head on because of your poor survivability. And if you've completely crushed them and they barely can afford boots, then it doesn't really matter what items you are going to make after Radiance. :D I should of clarified. I meant that having radiance refresher at 25ish is much better than having radiance refresher at 35-40 as two items. If you are fighting to the point where your radiance is so late, I don't think you can afford to go the radiance when the manta gives you much more utility in a fight with a much shorter CD. The item scales well with your items but I was referring to if you get a late radiance, that other items are probably better for you and your team than a refresher. But yeah, I think it will probably require your first couple of uses be from the fountain, maybe haunt and TP home, then refresh, then haunt out again. I think the timing needs to be good for the refresher because it should guarantee your first use of it results in a near team wipe, which should allow you to snowball really hard into your next item like finishing the SNY, or grabbing your diffusal for the next fight. Well, having 430 gpm is obviously much better than having 314 gpm if you are primary farmer, it does not really say much. And yes, usually first use of earlier rfo-radiance does result into near-team wipe unless somehow countered, be it stampede or song.
I feel like you missed the point. I just meant to illustrate that in a tenser game where your timings are later on the radiance, it becomes more efficient to skip the refresher in favor of other items. Obviously a higher GPM is always better than a lower GPM, my point was simply that for Radiance-RFO to be viable as a RUSH, you need to have it quickly so you can dominate the next two team fights and rapidly accelerate your next item progression.
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Weird question, but is positioning ever relevant for Desolate procs, or is that mostly negligible?
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On July 01 2014 02:20 DazzleEnthusiast wrote:
Weird question, but is positioning ever relevant for Desolate procs, or is that mostly negligible?
As spectre or playing against, more against, hugging creeps ftw :D
not a very big detail, for spec well depends on game to game who to focus down, but yes it does matter same as its not just about popping spec ult its when to pop it also.
Things like this you cant answer right on papper all depends how game is going what items and heroes you/other team has.
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On June 30 2014 23:01 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 21:18 FuzioNda1337 wrote:
spectre is only legit to pick and have on your team if you have following. great teamfight/gank/stun/cc presence on your team,other aoe combos with your ult, oldschool aa spec with another global burst dmg, zeus or is powerful, however it all depends on other teams picks, if they go agro tri, you can expect lost game.
spectre is one of the worst carries in the game and she is not even the best carry by far even.
only good part with her is her dagger slows, thru bkb.and her ultimate presence.
You should always bring the fight to spectre if you are against spec, same as io(if possible)
her farming speed is very bad also.
i have always felt that her dispersion been lackluster ability even how praised it is by some players. i would like that she got an activate aoe nuke. that works like echoslams, motivating others to not stand close to eachother for her passive to work better.
but of course not as strong as echo but work around that way.
anyway she has her games where she is great, but she is like that hero you feel somone could have done the same job but better anyway.
Thats why she aint picked, you can smell straight away if a game is lost if a pro team picks spec, other teams picks, and their picks.
for instance alliance when they picked her last TI i knew game was lost right during all picks and bans.
if there is one hero i would suggest anyone to stay away from if they wanna learn a specific hero that is so lackluster in so many ways and easily countered, and limiting your team by a lot. spectre is one of them.
about refresher radiance build, it is really legit, but keep in mind those heroes she is great with this build is also the heroes that a great trilaners against her, cm,veno,lion,lina,lesh and such.
So if you get that fast they are doing somthing wrong or failed miserbly, and you will notice that you cant go this build vs these and forced to skip that radiance. very fast and get a fast diff instead. I think you are underestimating her utility early on. You can literally team fight from anywhere on the map. Her farming is slow until you get radiance, but once she has it shes farms at a pretty reasonable pace. Your haunt also means you don't have to sit around waiting for a fight and can actively farm until the fight starts, then be their instantly just by hitting R. I personally like her because I think she plays to many of my strengths as a carry, and my weaknesses are mitigated. I can help in a team fight every 120 seconds just by hitting a button, and can easy nab some skills or haunt in and toss out a dagger depending on how the fight is going. This means I can farm super greedy and not move with my team. I tend to not move with my team enough so haunt tends to help mitigate my weakness by making that irrelevant. While my strengths of safely farming and split pushing are able to be used a bit more aggressively. Either way though, once she's level 6 she can help get pick offs and help in team fights every 120s, and her damage during the first 15 minutes with just desolate is quite fierce, particularly if you have someone like a clockwerk who can just hold someone in place while you hammer away at them.
you dont seem to understand, you must have a far stronger tri, for her to work.
if they have a stronger they will CRUSH literlarry you lane, you absence in the lane is close to a stronger creep.
you dont have any great cc or great ability to deal much damage, your dagger deals bad damage, expensive, and slow is very very bad earlygame(i am not talking about being able to run over tree:s now)
So how are you going to farm?
and yes she is strong with her ult being able to join fights, thats why i said thats why you pick her, but still you need to be winning the fights or trade well, if you dont(your team8s doing all the work for you) then it will end really bad for you.
im not talking about pub games where ppl running around like clueless chickens unaware how to draft and play.
in pub all heroes works, but agianst good players they could just aswell picked void.
A good team will have stronger and bring the fight to you, you wont have much breathing space at all, while their safelaner having a blast.
This is the major problem teams have to understand, best way to deal with spec and make her useless, be in her lane, dont try to push to early until she can start farm ok.
She is best to be picked as safelaner as radiant not dire, due to the pull possbilities as agro tri makes it even worse.
She has her stenghts but those are so few, i would say ursa is alot more viable in many more games than spec, but i am not saying she is useless she has her pocket strats. if they go greedy lineup, but often greedy lineup also means they get more farm and is tankier aswell, simple put.
if you go spec you need good earlygame and lane heroes.
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Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
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Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again.
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On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better.
On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again.
It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents.
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On July 01 2014 02:56 FuzioNda1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 23:01 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 30 2014 21:18 FuzioNda1337 wrote:
spectre is only legit to pick and have on your team if you have following. great teamfight/gank/stun/cc presence on your team,other aoe combos with your ult, oldschool aa spec with another global burst dmg, zeus or is powerful, however it all depends on other teams picks, if they go agro tri, you can expect lost game.
spectre is one of the worst carries in the game and she is not even the best carry by far even.
only good part with her is her dagger slows, thru bkb.and her ultimate presence.
You should always bring the fight to spectre if you are against spec, same as io(if possible)
her farming speed is very bad also.
i have always felt that her dispersion been lackluster ability even how praised it is by some players. i would like that she got an activate aoe nuke. that works like echoslams, motivating others to not stand close to eachother for her passive to work better.
but of course not as strong as echo but work around that way.
anyway she has her games where she is great, but she is like that hero you feel somone could have done the same job but better anyway.
Thats why she aint picked, you can smell straight away if a game is lost if a pro team picks spec, other teams picks, and their picks.
for instance alliance when they picked her last TI i knew game was lost right during all picks and bans.
if there is one hero i would suggest anyone to stay away from if they wanna learn a specific hero that is so lackluster in so many ways and easily countered, and limiting your team by a lot. spectre is one of them.
about refresher radiance build, it is really legit, but keep in mind those heroes she is great with this build is also the heroes that a great trilaners against her, cm,veno,lion,lina,lesh and such.
So if you get that fast they are doing somthing wrong or failed miserbly, and you will notice that you cant go this build vs these and forced to skip that radiance. very fast and get a fast diff instead. I think you are underestimating her utility early on. You can literally team fight from anywhere on the map. Her farming is slow until you get radiance, but once she has it shes farms at a pretty reasonable pace. Your haunt also means you don't have to sit around waiting for a fight and can actively farm until the fight starts, then be their instantly just by hitting R. I personally like her because I think she plays to many of my strengths as a carry, and my weaknesses are mitigated. I can help in a team fight every 120 seconds just by hitting a button, and can easy nab some skills or haunt in and toss out a dagger depending on how the fight is going. This means I can farm super greedy and not move with my team. I tend to not move with my team enough so haunt tends to help mitigate my weakness by making that irrelevant. While my strengths of safely farming and split pushing are able to be used a bit more aggressively. Either way though, once she's level 6 she can help get pick offs and help in team fights every 120s, and her damage during the first 15 minutes with just desolate is quite fierce, particularly if you have someone like a clockwerk who can just hold someone in place while you hammer away at them. you dont seem to understand, you must have a far stronger tri, for her to work. if they have a stronger they will CRUSH literlarry you lane, you absence in the lane is close to a stronger creep. you dont have any great cc or great ability to deal much damage, your dagger deals bad damage, expensive, and slow is very very bad earlygame(i am not talking about being able to run over tree:s now) So how are you going to farm? and yes she is strong with her ult being able to join fights, thats why i said thats why you pick her, but still you need to be winning the fights or trade well, if you dont(your team8s doing all the work for you) then it will end really bad for you. im not talking about pub games where ppl running around like clueless chickens unaware how to draft and play. in pub all heroes works, but agianst good players they could just aswell picked void. A good team will have stronger and bring the fight to you, you wont have much breathing space at all, while their safelaner having a blast. This is the major problem teams have to understand, best way to deal with spec and make her useless, be in her lane, dont try to push to early until she can start farm ok. She is best to be picked as safelaner as radiant not dire, due to the pull possbilities as agro tri makes it even worse. She has her stenghts but those are so few, i would say ursa is alot more viable in many more games than spec, but i am not saying she is useless she has her pocket strats. if they go greedy lineup, but often greedy lineup also means they get more farm and is tankier aswell, simple put. if you go spec you need good earlygame and lane heroes.
You just responded to like one point. Yes, facing an aggro tri with her would suck. She's on par with void and AM in that respect. Besides that her farming is decent enough, and her contribution at level 7/8 is quite good. But yeah, if you are against an aggro with like a gyro or mirana or something you are going to have a really shitty time, but that could be said of pretty much any hard carry, with the possible exception of a PL if he has a KOTL to spam away with.
Plus like you said, a tri can fail if you also run two dominating supports like a lich/visage to discourage their trilane.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents.
Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent.
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On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent.
Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate.
There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher.
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That guy likes refresher on every hero lol
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On July 01 2014 06:01 Sn0_Man wrote:
That guy likes refresher on every hero lol
Refresher is legit and core on every hero; only question is whether to get it 3rd item 4th 5th 6th or 7th :D
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On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher.
You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre.
On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality.
You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item.
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On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality.
He is biased towards some items like Skadi and Refresher, he loves them too much, but he usually makes valid points and good arguments from what I've seen. What he said here is just strange though...
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While he's wrong a lot of times or right for the wrong reasons, if you can have radiance/refresher, you shouldnt be able to lose the game if you don't do any mistakes. Ofc if your team headbutts in and feed them 50kills then ur screwed no matter what but lets hope this doesnt happen
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 01 2014 08:09 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. He is biased towards some items like Skadi and Refresher, he loves them too much, but he usually makes valid points and good arguments from what I've seen. What he said here is just strange though...
Well, my point is that if enemy for some reason has relatively tanky and sustainable 5man (think necro 5 mans, that's if Necro was not camped at his lane for few minutes straight in beginning) and your other lanes did not have a great start, you, as spec, is in generally screwed a tad bit, since radiance burn is good, but so is pipe, mek and necro's death pulse spam/whatever other heals against this. And heart won't even help much either, since heart only is good when you can force people not to ignore you. Obviously, heart will do much more on frontline than refresher, but against proper 5 mans/tanky 3 cores spectre won't do much either way IMO and that's where you sort of have to rely more on proper initiation from teammates and if enemy team is running away, they are not hitting you, so heart does not help either. So, i just conclude that rad-rfo is probably best thing you can do when spectre is good carry pick.
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On July 01 2014 08:11 Erasme wrote:
While he's wrong a lot of times or right for the wrong reasons, if you can have radiance/refresher, you shouldnt be able to lose the game if you don't do any mistakes. Ofc if your team headbutts in and feed them 50kills then ur screwed no matter what but lets hope this doesnt happen
Not doing any mistakes is pretty much impossible since we aren't perfect beings and there are always mistakes. But anyway, I understand your point, you wanted to say that if you get Radiance and Refresher at reasonable time(around 25 minutes is really good) and have decent teammates you shouldn't lose, which I still disagree with because DotA is far more complex than that.
Sometimes enemy just have heroes that counter yours and it doesn't matter how many mistakes you are making, as long as they are not making some huge mistakes they should win. Having 3-4 very tanky heroes, together with Meka, Pipe and maybe even one more heal and your double ulti with Radiance won't be doing anything.
But let's not get that deep into the game, what I want to say is that Radiance and Refresher is great combo on Spectre(even though I still don't like to get Refresher immediately after Radiance but that is just me), but it is not instant win and people shouldn't be surprised if in some games they get it in quite decent time and still don't do much with it.
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im just at 4.2 solo so i aint good, but i play spectre pretty differently.
spectre is the only carry in the game that can split push and instantly join team fights regardless of positioning. so if you build midgame items they will have to commit 2~ heroes or their core to stop your split push because otherwise your going to crush them with max desolate. for this reason alone i find phase/drums/yasha to be more practical in solo queue than naked radiance.
if i was playing 5 man with 2 talented and dedicated supports then i'd be on board with rad-refresher. but in a generally unorganized solo q team, i think its a recipe for a 20 min radiance.
if my team lineup is team-fight oriented, i find i can hit phase/drum/yasha/diffusal by around 20 mins, which i find infinetely more useful than a radiance/treads or whatever. depending how broke their supports are / if they have any blink carriers, i usually get radiance or manta, and then whatever end game items
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