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On June 24 2017 01:21 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2017 23:29 LemOn wrote:On June 23 2017 00:02 ahw wrote:
tbh i dont think you can properly judge spectre builds unless ur at a very high level of play like 6k+ or something
because that hero can win games when crazy far behind if a team doesnt know how to end the game. and nobody does till u gte to high 5k or something it certainly doesnt happen at low 5k
items pretty much dont matter Lolwut The items are really important. In case of Spectre especially as you can go so many ways Sometimes you e.g. get to go to midas at 17 minutes and it's the right play Other times Vanguard build's good etc. etc. and you need to react to lineups and how the game is doing if fights will be happening etc. Yeah but I was trying to say is decision making on spec is going to trump item builds almost every time, more so than most heroes. Probably more than any hero in dota
So you consider my 6 Atos Spectre build viable? (This is not a serious build.)
Item builds is what cuts 10 minutes out of the long turtle time until you can turn it around.
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On June 23 2017 00:02 ahw wrote:
tbh i dont think you can properly judge spectre builds unless ur at a very high level of play like 6k+ or something
because that hero can win games when crazy far behind if a team doesnt know how to end the game. and nobody does till u gte to high 5k or something it certainly doesnt happen at low 5k
items pretty much dont matter
I know exactly what you mean, I've been in a lot of 3-4k games where people were like "they have won 3 lanes, taken a rax and we can basically give up now", while we are 2 good fights from the point where fights get hard for them. And often the enemies give us that first fight because they fall into the cocky feed mode and just barely get their shit together for the second one.
So basically spectre games often come down to a single smoke gank at <5k after falling 20k behind in the early game. Itemization increases your chances in the smoke gank and the fight before that, but in the end Spectre in a hard game is a support Zeus level impact hero before she gets her core items up and after that likely the strongest core in the game.
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On June 24 2017 17:03 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2017 01:21 ahw wrote:On June 23 2017 23:29 LemOn wrote:On June 23 2017 00:02 ahw wrote:
tbh i dont think you can properly judge spectre builds unless ur at a very high level of play like 6k+ or something
because that hero can win games when crazy far behind if a team doesnt know how to end the game. and nobody does till u gte to high 5k or something it certainly doesnt happen at low 5k
items pretty much dont matter Lolwut The items are really important. In case of Spectre especially as you can go so many ways Sometimes you e.g. get to go to midas at 17 minutes and it's the right play Other times Vanguard build's good etc. etc. and you need to react to lineups and how the game is doing if fights will be happening etc. Yeah but I was trying to say is decision making on spec is going to trump item builds almost every time, more so than most heroes. Probably more than any hero in dota So you consider my 6 Atos Spectre build viable? (This is not a serious build.) Item builds is what cuts 10 minutes out of the long turtle time until you can turn it around.
Is it worth a post saying that if you do dumb builds you will probably lose?
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On June 24 2017 23:25 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2017 00:02 ahw wrote:
tbh i dont think you can properly judge spectre builds unless ur at a very high level of play like 6k+ or something
because that hero can win games when crazy far behind if a team doesnt know how to end the game. and nobody does till u gte to high 5k or something it certainly doesnt happen at low 5k
items pretty much dont matter I know exactly what you mean, I've been in a lot of 3-4k games where people were like "they have won 3 lanes, taken a rax and we can basically give up now", while we are 2 good fights from the point where fights get hard for them. And often the enemies give us that first fight because they fall into the cocky feed mode and just barely get their shit together for the second one. So basically spectre games often come down to a single smoke gank at <5k after falling 20k behind in the early game. Itemization increases your chances in the smoke gank and the fight before that, but in the end Spectre in a hard game is a support Zeus level impact hero before she gets her core items up and after that likely the strongest core in the game.
I played a game like that just last week. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3263473614
Spec lost her lane and had first item pipe at 15 min. Our team was generally getting wrecked and was well behind in gold. Then 25 min spec got diffusal and we had one solid break even fight that benefited us a lot as we were behind in the game. Spec got fat, we wiped them 2 or 3 times, and by 40 min in we were well in control of the game.
As an aside, dust is one of the best items spectre can carry. In the game I linked spectre consistently carried dust and it really crushed BH's mid game value.
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I feel like the Spectre might be one of the stronger heroes this patch. Her talent tree is somewhat useful and I feel like it's kind of easy to recover between the 10-20 minute mark with haunt ganks. The vision reduction creates so much chaos and makes the hero super hard to play against in late game team fights. The haunt initiation allows your own team to position themselves aggressively in fights.
Safe laning with this hero is still very hard, since you lose 1v1 to literally any random generic offlane hero. You also lack burst damage in the mid game with spectre compared to other carries. I itembuilds are highly situational, but generally you need to make 3 important choices dependant on how you wanna play the early game.
1. Am I building urn? This choice comes down to if you think you will be fighting a lot and can make use of haunt to gank alot, also if it is a very good wand game it can be hard to fit in urn into your slots.
2. Can i go mask of madness? Mom solves your damage issues around the 10-20 minute mark in the game, but in a game where you are dying a lot or its very risky to go in you probably shouldn't buy this snowballing item.
3. Radi? Radi is a big commitment and delays your power curve in a very critical time of the game (in the current patch, the fights after the laning stage collapses feel very important). Generally you want radi in a slow game, but sometimes an early diffusal or manta can make you play a lot more aggressive with your team.
I'm not sure on Spectre lvl 15 talents, spectral dagger cd reduction can be super strong, as it has no down time. I'm not sure what characteristics of a game would justify taking cd reduction over stats, maybe anyone knows.
These are my thoughts on the spectre hero after playing her on EU W server for 15 games. https://www.opendota.com/players/75220691/matches?hero_id=67
anyway spectre op free +25 thx
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The early laning parts of spectre is one of the biggest problems with the hero, along with the inability to take any meaningful objectives with the hero. ie Towers/Roshan
A lot of the stronger carries, like Luna, Morph etc are able to zone out offlaners effectively given a 2 level advantage, and deny a lot of xp from the offlaner.
For a hero like spec, you can kiss goodbye to the notion, and once the supports leave the offlaner is able to get anything and everything he wants from the lane, even if he is unable to stop spec from farming.
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@Kaj depends on the game, spec with a lvl advantage and phase can still harass decently against low lvl offlaners. But I agree that the level-difference has to be larger than with most cores and her killing power is very low.
@paladin-: Exactly the opposite estimation of spec that I have this patch. It's a lot easier to go HG in 7.07, it's more punishing to loose towers since shrines are further back in the jungle and bounties further to the outside and overall the map is more open. So her pathing abuse is less good, the pacing is terrible for the hero and if you loose a few fights that nowadays often start happening at 15 minutes you straight up loose the game.
To add to the pain PMS and IT are gone, diffu and mom got nerfed and haunt damage got nerfed.
Her talent tree is roughly the same, maybe a bit stronger late. It's more well-rounded and I like it more, but I can't really say that her lvl 10 and lvl 15 are better in hard games.
That being said spec is still a pubstomper and her winrates are great, especially when you play on low mmr.
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On December 07 2017 00:30 Kaj wrote:
The early laning parts of spectre is one of the biggest problems with the hero, along with the inability to take any meaningful objectives with the hero. ie Towers/Roshan
With the illusion changes to Roshan, Spectre is actually quite good at Rosh post-manta with desolate. Not exactly in the upper echolons of rosh heroes, but significantly more impressive than before.
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So what has to happen for spectre to be relevant in the proscene, it got picked vs Og, got a ton of farm yet they just ignored him anyways and felt useless
Guess the hero concept, long ultimate and little building kill potential combined with liability in lane just means it will forever be a pub crushing ugly duckling
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I'd argue she is pretty relevant right now, saw some plays in the closed quals. She got picked 6 times in EU alone so far and 19 times across the closed quals. But her winrate is garbage (32%).
I think an ultimate cd reduction would make her competitive in an instant, her biggest weakness along with her shitty lane is that she has so much downtime.
But if i had to guess I'd put my money on a dagger, IF tends to chain-buff the same abilities. It has two talents that see fairly little play, so if the slow went up by 10% across the board it would reach 50% with the talent. Which still doesn't sound really good until you think about the fact that spec is almost going to be hasted on treads manta.
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another spec draft, another autoloss almost in eu grand finals
it's either the weak teams pickin it and getting dismantled
or a fringe 4-5th pick
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Looks like the teams have figured Spectre drafts out
Either
1) Liquid draft it with CM into a shitty lane where he gets little farm
Spec is super behind BUT they get brood + pugna, two huge space making heroes that just let spectre catch up
And the CM AURA allows him to do that with the dagger cd talent
or
2) VP Dual lane but put a super strong laner like Chen with him who just sacks his early hame to babysit instead of farming jungle
and
3) both games fast blademail before radiance was a thing, ramzes even goes into fight build vs gyro + ember squishy heroes
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I am not sure is Spectre is at TI to stay.
But I totally agree with you at the VP laning approach. Spectre and Chen won that lane with ease vs Gyro and Io.
I am not sure if the blademail after that lane win was the optimal item. Ramzees and VP were in a position when they could hold for a radiance. But the Secret draft had a very strong mid game timing and once they got their levels VP was overpowered by a 5 man deathball.
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well
the problem is that they realized their teamfight will never be great
especially as wisp gets farmed and TA will be more and more useless
And then get Pipe on top of mek
So he wanted to fight early
Yeah so I feel like Spec after today is relegated again to a fringe last pick
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I think the problem is that it's very hard to balance the early dominance Spectre needs to farm with not falling off so hard that Spec has to do everything herself.
She is strong lategame, but mainly at killing the backline and doing spread damage, a lot of carries will still win or draw the manfight against a 6-slotted Spectre especially with silver edge or lifesteal. So if there isn't a second scaling core you still fall off a cliff even with Spectre.
Which is different to an AM f.e. who with freefarm is a great manfighter once he comes online.
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Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar.
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spec is pretty good in pubs atm
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On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar.
There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well.
Also +15 desolate is rarely the better choice.
And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta.
This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well.
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On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well.
Wat
Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily?
And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers.
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On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well.
I've always figured if I'm getting a vanguard the +15 desolate is better. If I'm not going vanguard I could understand the opposite.
Although I didn't really consider how +5 HP regen compounds with heart/manta and maybe Skadi strength multiplier on HP regen passively. If it were to say, triple that regen maybe it could be good late game.
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EPT
