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On August 25 2018 22:09 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well. Wat Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily? And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers.
That doesn't sound right. I'm pretty sure TB is a hard counter for spectre. Pushes hard and deals heavy damage and can just sunder away half of spectres HP without triggering any dispersion damage(I think?).
The reflection damage is also good vs spectre too. Not AM bad, but still pretty strong.
The only thing that would make him better is if he was a natural SE carrier. But you can just combo SE with other heroes on your team and Spectre should melt due to her low armor.
As the other guy I responded to said. Spectre's stat gains are pretty terrible. It's the dispersion that makes her tanky, once you break that she is a squishbox and there is no itemizing against break except to hope your team can save you when you are broken.
That's also the reason why sometimes the haunt damage could be better than dispersion at level 25. If your dispersion is down because they have 2-3 SE carriers or heroes with break like SD/Viper, might as well get the most out of your haunt.
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On August 25 2018 22:22 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 22:09 ahw wrote:On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well. Wat Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily? And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers. That doesn't sound right. I'm pretty sure TB is a hard counter for spectre. Pushes hard and deals heavy damage and can just sunder away half of spectres HP without triggering any dispersion damage(I think?). The reflection damage is also good vs spectre too. Not AM bad, but still pretty strong. The only thing that would make him better is if he was a natural SE carrier. But you can just combo SE with other heroes on your team and Spectre should melt due to her low armor. As the other guy I responded to said. Spectre's stat gains are pretty terrible. It's the dispersion that makes her tanky, once you break that she is a squishbox and there is no itemizing against break except to hope your team can save you when you are broken. That's also the reason why sometimes the haunt damage could be better than dispersion at level 25. If your dispersion is down because they have 2-3 SE carriers or heroes with break like SD/Viper, might as well get the most out of your haunt.
Tb technically hard counters any agility core but it doesn’t play out that way
Its less about the hero and more about how games play out now. Spec is useful all game because haunt let’s you catch up and farm and mak plays when it should be impossible to.
Dota is so team oriented right now with emphasis on building xp on your 4 and 5 positions that team fight heroes like spec are just always useful.
Same with having 2-3 SE carriers on a team. Most team comps can’t support that until ultra late. Silver edge is a good item but most heroes can’t afford making one early.
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On August 25 2018 22:09 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well. Wat Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily? And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers.
*+15 desolate.
I'm catching up pretty on the matches just now, TI times are terrible for EU this year. EG vs Liquid is next on the list.
So for now I'll just quote Black^ when LGD counterpicked TB against Spec (resulting in Spec never feeling like that dominant lategame threat in the game) saying that it's "such a nice MU for TB.". She can't do jack about sunder, she has way lower dps, TB doesn't care about dispersions reflection due to his crazy armor and he often has illus around him.
On August 25 2018 22:48 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 22:22 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On August 25 2018 22:09 ahw wrote:On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well. Wat Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily? And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers. That doesn't sound right. I'm pretty sure TB is a hard counter for spectre. Pushes hard and deals heavy damage and can just sunder away half of spectres HP without triggering any dispersion damage(I think?). The reflection damage is also good vs spectre too. Not AM bad, but still pretty strong. The only thing that would make him better is if he was a natural SE carrier. But you can just combo SE with other heroes on your team and Spectre should melt due to her low armor. As the other guy I responded to said. Spectre's stat gains are pretty terrible. It's the dispersion that makes her tanky, once you break that she is a squishbox and there is no itemizing against break except to hope your team can save you when you are broken. That's also the reason why sometimes the haunt damage could be better than dispersion at level 25. If your dispersion is down because they have 2-3 SE carriers or heroes with break like SD/Viper, might as well get the most out of your haunt. Tb technically hard counters any agility core but it doesn’t play out that way Its less about the hero and more about how games play out now. Spec is useful all game because haunt let’s you catch up and farm and mak plays when it should be impossible to. Dota is so team oriented right now with emphasis on building xp on your 4 and 5 positions that team fight heroes like spec are just always useful.
Same with having 2-3 SE carriers on a team. Most team comps can’t support that until ultra late. Silver edge is a good item but most heroes can’t afford making one early.
precisely my point, Spec is a good teamfighter and catch up due to that, but she is not a great 1v1 manfighter.
And usually by the time Spectre becomes a massive threat natural SE carriers can afford one.
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On August 25 2018 23:24 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 22:09 ahw wrote:On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well. Wat Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily? And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers. *+15 desolate. I'm catching up pretty on the matches just now, TI times are terrible for EU this year. EG vs Liquid are next on the list. So for now I'll just quote Black^ when LGD counterpicked TB against Spec (resulting in Spec never feeling like that dominant lategame threat in the game) saying that it's "such a nice MU for TB.". She can't do jack about sunder, she has way lower dps, TB doesn't care about dispersions reflection due to his crazy armor and he often has illus around him.
Yea I’ll agree that on paper tb matches up really well but I guess what I’m trying to say is specs toolkit is much better in this meta where tbs is out of place
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yeah I don't argue with that. Imo TB is situational this meta, but I agree that what he provides and how he plays out this meta is completely different (outside of the lategame aspect).
My initial point was just about Spec not being a great manfighter, which sometimes lets her fall off lategame when she has troubles killing cores off and her teammates are too early game centric to provide much later on (Huskar + Pugna + Chen f.e.). Cause then she haunts the supps, while her lane domination team looses the 4v3 and she has to fight 2v1/3v1, which she will likely loose when a silver edge or a strong agi carry or just two well scaling cores are in the game.
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On August 25 2018 22:48 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2018 22:22 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On August 25 2018 22:09 ahw wrote:On August 24 2018 21:39 Archeon wrote:On August 22 2018 14:15 gaymon wrote:
Theres this guy telling me that Spec is a bad manfighter when shes got 65 puredmg passive and 42% more ehp which in turn deals damage. He also has a spec avatar. There's this guy telling me that spec is a good manfighter when he has an AM avatar who will in an average game stomp a spec in a manfight. Let her go up against a Silver edge agi carry like Troll (who probably beats her without it all game long), MK or even Slark or a real fighter like TB and she will get stomped as well. Also +15 dispersion is rarely the better choice. And yes, Spec's abilities looks amazing for a hard carry on paper, but she has a shitty agi gain, low base armor and a long BAT. So she ends up with a bad AS and DPS, is bad at bashing and lifeleeching and when she is broken she is a low armor high hp hero with very little threat and no instant mobility. To boot her damage steroid is gimpy and useless vs anyone who builds manta. This is btw not a "Spec is shitty and needs a buff" post, she is strong in pubs right now and is when she is farmed she is probably the best hero in the game at taking out the backline. She isn't even terrible at 1v1ing, but there are a good bunch she'll draw against or have a disadvantage if they itemize well. Wat Did u just watch liquid eg where spec wins vs TB quite easily? And 8% dispersion is always the better choice that shit is fucking bonkers. That doesn't sound right. I'm pretty sure TB is a hard counter for spectre. Pushes hard and deals heavy damage and can just sunder away half of spectres HP without triggering any dispersion damage(I think?). The reflection damage is also good vs spectre too. Not AM bad, but still pretty strong. The only thing that would make him better is if he was a natural SE carrier. But you can just combo SE with other heroes on your team and Spectre should melt due to her low armor. As the other guy I responded to said. Spectre's stat gains are pretty terrible. It's the dispersion that makes her tanky, once you break that she is a squishbox and there is no itemizing against break except to hope your team can save you when you are broken. That's also the reason why sometimes the haunt damage could be better than dispersion at level 25. If your dispersion is down because they have 2-3 SE carriers or heroes with break like SD/Viper, might as well get the most out of your haunt. Tb technically hard counters any agility core but it doesn’t play out that way Its less about the hero and more about how games play out now. Spec is useful all game because haunt let’s you catch up and farm and mak plays when it should be impossible to. Dota is so team oriented right now with emphasis on building xp on your 4 and 5 positions that team fight heroes like spec are just always useful. Same with having 2-3 SE carriers on a team. Most team comps can’t support that until ultra late. Silver edge is a good item but most heroes can’t afford making one early.
Then your argument is that spectre is just strong right now due to tempo. It still sounds like out of all carries TB tends to do better vs her for a variety of reasons compared to other carries.
You also addressed 1 of about 4 reasons for why TB is good against spec. Sunder is a huge part of why he is good against her for the same reason necro is good against her. You can dig through a huge portion of her HP without incurring dispersion damage without the need for break. Dispersion is basically her whole late game.
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Sadly, spectre is clearly getting the nerhammer next patch
It already is the best pub hero especially in crap under 4k tier
And now even pros after like half a damn year figured how to build the team around her even when lanes are heavily contested and win
I'm hating this since I got like 63% in solo Q as 4.1k on her
At least my other 62% her Jugg will get buffed since it stopped being a hero even unless like a phoenix is picked and no counter is in the pro scene
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She has a 60% winrate. I doubt that be described as sadly  . Get your games in while you can.
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On August 28 2018 04:04 LemOn wrote:
And now even pros after like half a damn year figured how to build the team around her even when lanes are heavily contested and win
I'm hating this since I got like 63% in solo Q as 4.1k on her
I had the exact same thing happen to me. I used to abuse Luna pos1 and got a lot of mmr with her. Then the pros caught words of my performance and started to emulate in tournaments. Then she got nerfed (wasn't too bad, but still).
I was starting to develop the same concerns with Ursa, however this TI wasn't that great for him and the meta evolving was seemingly enought to contain him, without the need for a targeted patch. So we'll see. Please no nerf Ursa, he just only got out of his cave.
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Yeah same I uses to spam luna too with like 64% then it dropped to 50
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How bad are the 7.19b nerfs?
I think that the lingering dagger effect is the big one.
But the dispersion and desolate radius nerfs are kind of small (imo), i was expecting a dispertion % reduction or a nerf for the lvl 20 and 25 talents. Laning phase and late game looks the same. You have a little more room to counterplay as an opponent, but I still think that haunt is gonna keep killing everyone out of position, and Spectre is gonna keep being the most tanky carry in the game.
Maybe a 1 % decrease in winrate??
Edit: Already a -4% in dotabuff, still 56% wr (balanced right?)
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The lingering dagger nerf makes comebacks a lot harder because it becomes way easier to hunt the Spectre down and that's kinda the hero you want to start the fight on anyways. If specs team wins 4v5 anyways it doesn't matter much and you can still come back with teamfights. But mobility nerfs always hurt.
I think the dispersion change is pretty huge, dispersion always was a large portion of her damage. I assume it still scales linearly, which would mean that f.e. a target 500 range away would only take ~30% of what you used to.
To be fair SE is the lategame way to take a Spectre down, so that interaction doesn't change in any way. But it's easier to focus her down without it and not die.
Desolate was always gimpy and now is even more gimpy. % wise it's a lot, but it's not what makes the hero strong, so I don't think it matters much. It hurts the manta-jump though.
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Let's all be honest this nerfs are kind of small and well deserved but not enough, Spectre is super strong still, the "strong by design" type of hero, if the team against Spectre cant coordinate to break hg between 30-40 minutes game becomes super hard.
Spectre winrate after lvl 20 is almost 65% and after lvl 25 75%, you just need to survive until then.
I play Spectre (3.5-4k bracket ) and always the same happens: the enemy team dont finish the game at 25 minutes, then in the next 10 minutes they lose 2 teamfights or trade even and then the only thing i have to do for the rest of the game is save for buyback. No other core have this kind of "play" available, i dont even need to be "good" just resilient and wait for an openning.
Maybe as long as haunt and dispersion remain the same Spectre will be like this in pubs. And without a rework the only possible "nerf" is through a change in the game pace with a meta rewarding death balls and all in push strats ending the game before 30 minutes.
Desolate was always gimpy and now is even more gimpy. % wise it's a lot, but it's not what makes the hero strong, so I don't think it matters much. It hurts the manta-jump though.
The manta jump + desolate procs for me its Spectre's ace in the midgame. Radiance is for sure annoying but as a team you can plan to outlast (in midgame) the haunt with a pipe and regen auras. But i feel that manta is the best item for bursting anyone (manta is out and suddenly noone is safe alone in the map), and the funny thing is that even in late game you can shred a core out of position with just manta.
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Who would have guessed, spec became firstphaseban in the finals Also agreeing with ironcell here; the hero is still very very good.
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You got to realise it was virtually never picked in prodota
And became a situational pick during TI
Only 1st pick ban hero in the grand finals
These nerfs should be enough to send her back to fringe pick in programes
And sub 60% wr in pubs, which seems good enough to me
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Garbage hero made even worse. She was never good, hard countered by many agility heroes like TB, Slark, PA, Void, etc...
I'd never want to play her in a serious game where I'm planning on actually winning.
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hero is good because you can farm while your team smokes or push and still be there for the fight
in an era with carry having to recover from a poor laning phase its a pretty good skillset
On September 14 2018 03:46 PlayerofDota wrote:
Garbage hero made even worse. She was never good, hard countered by many agility heroes like TB, Slark, PA, Void, etc...
I'd never want to play her in a serious game where I'm planning on actually winning.
Ye thats probably why you shouldn't post in the strategy forum unless ur asking something
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On September 14 2018 03:46 PlayerofDota wrote:
Garbage hero made even worse. She was never good, hard countered by many agility heroes like TB, Slark, PA, Void, etc...
I'd never want to play her in a serious game where I'm planning on actually winning.
Are you sure that those heroes counter Spectre? Maybe in a 1v1 before 35 minutes, but Spectre has 2 huge advantages over those:
1. Spectre is expected to lose lane and recover haunting, but very few agility heroes can recover from a lost lane.
All these are bkb carrys. If they have teamfight presence they also have long cds (Void and TB) and most of them had bad buybacks. Most of them can be countered by a balanced support cast, kited, controlled and killed doing nothing, Dota is 5v5 after all.
2.Spectre is almost the best buyback carry vs all these "counters". And that potential play can top almost everything, ask for this to any Spectre player in this forum (and to EG at TI).
If you want to climb in this patch, Spectre has answers for everything, is easy to execute, and is a consistent pick. I can only think about Meepo, Brood, or Visage being better, and all these are last picks in pubs.
Also in what bracket PA is a counter of Spectre? Its an awful matchup, you either snowball from min 10 or you lose. Dotabuff give a 40% wr for PA thats a really bad matchup numbers.
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its hard to take seriously someone who suggest picking slark tbh
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what build do you guys suggest these days if you're expected to get 30-40 last hits in lane?
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EPT
