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Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 69

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy
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CountChocula
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada2068 Posts
January 27 2012 00:56 GMT
#1361
On January 27 2012 09:53 Numy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2012 09:52 CountChocula wrote:
On January 27 2012 07:48 Live2Win wrote:
On January 27 2012 07:42 KezseN wrote:
On January 27 2012 07:39 TheWarbler wrote:
On January 27 2012 06:00 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
Do you have the option to smartcast abilities in DOTA2 like in LoL?

What do you meen


probably auto-cast? where u right click an ability like huskars Burning spears n it auto-casts it for u rather than tapping W

no smart-casting is putting your cursor over a unit and hitting "Q" and it activates the skill without needing to click-target the unit again.

For example, if you're playing Vengeful and want to stun someone, you usually get in range, hit "c" and then click on the opposing player to stun.

With smart casting, you'd get in range, put your cursor over the opposing hero and hit "c" and it would stun without needed to click again.

Though it only shortens one click, it helps a lot with combos.

It's there in Dota 2, but your target has to be in vision the entire time during your approach or it doesn't work. For example if you use VS, press magic missile, then click on an enemy target that's out of range (but in vision), it will auto-walk you towards the target and magic missile as soon as you get in range.


That's not at all what they talking about. The "smart casting" has no clicking. You press the key and it uses the ability. You don't have to click

Oh I see, I misread what he wrote.
Writer我会让他们连馒头都吃不到 Those championships owed me over the years, I will take them back one by one.
3Y3S
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada177 Posts
January 27 2012 02:48 GMT
#1362
On January 27 2012 09:01 scorch- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2012 22:49 3Y3S wrote:
On January 26 2012 22:30 KezseN wrote:
When people go for the "walk around" method, do u guys walk around a spot like ure circling a patch of grass or sth, or do u just randomly go anywhere u want until u're rdy to get the last hit/deny?

i feel that getting a rhythm helps me last hit better, which i would probably tell newer players to do because it simply makes you capable of timing last hits better, but it is definitely worse that simply running around randomly because you become predictable. basically if your against a pudge/mirana/clock, walk aroudn randomly otherwise find a pattern because it helps your cs get alot better


I just stand in one spot spamming H and right-clicking on the creep until I'm ready to hit it, rofl. There's really no reason to walk around the lane unless you have to avoid damage from the other hero. With the turn speed in dota 2 it's much harder to walk around and time last hits than it is in HoN.

idk about how the turn speed in HoN is but i find it pretty easy to last hit in dota after enough practice ( ive been playing dota 1 for years now) so thats my only source of knowledge
3Y3S
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada177 Posts
January 27 2012 02:52 GMT
#1363
On January 27 2012 09:54 PHILtheTANK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2012 09:44 TheYango wrote:
On January 27 2012 09:19 PHILtheTANK wrote:
Edit: Also any input on what build you think is better for DK? I've been going Vanguard/Mjollnir first just because I've watched a lot of pros doing it in tournament games, also watched the Dragon KNight like a BOSS video, where he suggests going helm of the dominator first into satanic... any thoughts?

From watching Zhou and Burning play in recent Chinese competitive games, I've seen basically 2 paths of item development for DK.

Both start by working toward Soul Ring/Bottle (Ring if sidelane, Bottle if mid), Treads, and Wand. Starting items are either Tango/Salve/Stout/Branches (when working toward Soul Ring) or Tango/Salve/Branches (for rushing Bottle).

The first item path goes something like Bracer/Janggo->BKB->Cuirass, with a Vit Booster or other survivability item slotted into the early development as needed. This build gives you damage, and buffers your mana a bit, and is your choice if you're 1st or 2nd position carry for your team.

The second option is something like Vanguard->Pipe->Cuirass. This build is all survivability until you get to Cuirass. It's not really suitable if you have to be a damage dealer, but if you're 2nd or 3rd position, going to give up xp/gold for a harder carry, and need to pick up defensive support items like pipe.

HotD is reasonable if the game is looking like a farm game, no one is going to stack Ancients for you, and you've got to do it yourself. Oftentimes though, you don't want to be just afk-farming the game out. You're a Strength semi-carry, and you have abusively strong pushing power with poison Dragon form, so you can, and often want to push the tempo of the game much faster than that. In some cases, the stack-ancients-and-farm pace is what you want to do but certainly not always. In either case, I don't think finishing Satanic as early as in the Video guide is necessary.


Hmmm in every recent game I've watched with DK in The Defense and D2E they've been going straight into vanguard/mjollnir... just a different build from the chinese?

yes in essence it reflects the chinese playstyle, they like to tank up on their DK's while in general NA/EU players like to go for + dmg. both are viable options depending ofcourse on your playstyle and how you approach the hero. sometimes you might even simply pick up a maelstrom because you need the early damage/farming/lane pressure ability by being capable of pushing the creeps forward
Atreides
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2393 Posts
January 27 2012 08:27 GMT
#1364
If someone has zero playing experience with Dota or any dota clones what do I do to get into this game? I have been watching streams and casted events as much as I can but at what point do you just start playing?

When I first got into SC2 in the beta I also had no experience I remember I initially started by watching Husky/HD then I sort of upgraded to better casters Tastosis/Day9/Day9Daily and eventually I reached a point where for educational purposes I almost exclusively watched first person streams. (Tourneys for entertainment) This got me from super noob to Masters. (took a while tho! )

I am thinking a similar thing might need to happen for Dota as I honestly have a hardish time really following the first person streams and what people are buying/why in particular. Other gameplay such as laning and pushes and stuff is more intuitive to follow. It does seem watching casted matches gives me a better overall feel for what is going on. Any suggestions?

With SC2 Beta it was 1v1 so I just jumped in and started playing but it was ok because my epic failure only affected myself. Is the MMing system inclusive enough that I can just jump in and get matched up with other total noobs? I realize this is not that helpful for learning teamwork and actual strategy probably but it would at least give me a feel for the game and items etc.

Any thoughts?
lozarian
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1043 Posts
January 27 2012 09:22 GMT
#1365
If you're watching a stream, just ask. Most first person streamers will happily explain what they're doing and why if you ask, I certainly do. Just get them talking. Caster matches will tend to have a lot more information than you actually need, depending on who is casting.

If you're a complete newbie, just find a first person stream you like, and go "I know nothing, please explain what the hell is going on" Ask them to justify anything, there's probably a reason but sometimes you have to think hard about it. The most important thing to know is what everyone does, so asking about stuff is the best way, you're not goingto get a response in a big casted match, but a smaller caster may well spend a while talkig.
For every battle honour a thousand heroes die alone, unsung, and unremembered.
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
12084 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-27 10:48:02
January 27 2012 10:46 GMT
#1366
I would recommend watching professional games if you want to learn. After watching a couple (following 1-2 heroes you want to learn, write down items and skill order, consider why you think they went that way) you then play those heroes in practice mode just to get used to their animation and spells. After that play with people, don't try to learn everything at once. While dead or idle in the game, select other heroes and read their skills and consider why they went for the items they did.

Only way to really learn dota is to focus on a few heroes at a time and watching high level cw:s for a feeling of what you should aim for later on. Do consider that they play with thinner margins than you will be able to, you simply don't know well enough if you will be ganked and if you can survive it to get those 3 extra creeps or skip a bracer.

This is like in SC2 where you don't play random and learn every single build if you want to improve quickly.
EtherealBlade
Profile Joined August 2010
660 Posts
January 27 2012 11:13 GMT
#1367
On January 27 2012 19:46 Yurie wrote:
I would recommend watching professional games if you want to learn. After watching a couple (following 1-2 heroes you want to learn, write down items and skill order, consider why you think they went that way) you then play those heroes in practice mode just to get used to their animation and spells. After that play with people, don't try to learn everything at once. While dead or idle in the game, select other heroes and read their skills and consider why they went for the items they did.

Only way to really learn dota is to focus on a few heroes at a time and watching high level cw:s for a feeling of what you should aim for later on. Do consider that they play with thinner margins than you will be able to, you simply don't know well enough if you will be ganked and if you can survive it to get those 3 extra creeps or skip a bracer.

This is like in SC2 where you don't play random and learn every single build if you want to improve quickly.

I'd like to add to that though, he shouldn't play with people if he really has 0 experience with dota previously. Dota 2 puts a lot of focus on bots so people can learn how to play properly without ruining the game for other people. If he watches the game and reads about it etc. he still needs to put those skills into practice, and those won't be appreciated in pubs.
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
12084 Posts
January 27 2012 13:50 GMT
#1368
On January 27 2012 20:13 Muki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2012 19:46 Yurie wrote:
I would recommend watching professional games if you want to learn. After watching a couple (following 1-2 heroes you want to learn, write down items and skill order, consider why you think they went that way) you then play those heroes in practice mode just to get used to their animation and spells. After that play with people, don't try to learn everything at once. While dead or idle in the game, select other heroes and read their skills and consider why they went for the items they did.

Only way to really learn dota is to focus on a few heroes at a time and watching high level cw:s for a feeling of what you should aim for later on. Do consider that they play with thinner margins than you will be able to, you simply don't know well enough if you will be ganked and if you can survive it to get those 3 extra creeps or skip a bracer.

This is like in SC2 where you don't play random and learn every single build if you want to improve quickly.

I'd like to add to that though, he shouldn't play with people if he really has 0 experience with dota previously. Dota 2 puts a lot of focus on bots so people can learn how to play properly without ruining the game for other people. If he watches the game and reads about it etc. he still needs to put those skills into practice, and those won't be appreciated in pubs.


Depends on if he wants to play with bots or not. If he starts with humans he will lose the first 10 games or something and then hit his skill tier in the matchmaking. Would suggest muting anybody at first flame they do and report them, people get upset when their team mates don't pull their weight. I also get upset, yet know that flaming will just make it worse.
scorch-
Profile Joined January 2011
United States816 Posts
January 27 2012 13:54 GMT
#1369
On January 27 2012 22:50 Yurie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2012 20:13 Muki wrote:
On January 27 2012 19:46 Yurie wrote:
I would recommend watching professional games if you want to learn. After watching a couple (following 1-2 heroes you want to learn, write down items and skill order, consider why you think they went that way) you then play those heroes in practice mode just to get used to their animation and spells. After that play with people, don't try to learn everything at once. While dead or idle in the game, select other heroes and read their skills and consider why they went for the items they did.

Only way to really learn dota is to focus on a few heroes at a time and watching high level cw:s for a feeling of what you should aim for later on. Do consider that they play with thinner margins than you will be able to, you simply don't know well enough if you will be ganked and if you can survive it to get those 3 extra creeps or skip a bracer.

This is like in SC2 where you don't play random and learn every single build if you want to improve quickly.

I'd like to add to that though, he shouldn't play with people if he really has 0 experience with dota previously. Dota 2 puts a lot of focus on bots so people can learn how to play properly without ruining the game for other people. If he watches the game and reads about it etc. he still needs to put those skills into practice, and those won't be appreciated in pubs.


Depends on if he wants to play with bots or not. If he starts with humans he will lose the first 10 games or something and then hit his skill tier in the matchmaking. Would suggest muting anybody at first flame they do and report them, people get upset when their team mates don't pull their weight. I also get upset, yet know that flaming will just make it worse.


If you do this, just take your chances and tell your team you're completely new at the start. If there's someone good on your team, they might coach you through the game. They might not... in which case you might need to requeue or start muting people.
Atreides
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2393 Posts
January 29 2012 02:00 GMT
#1370
Ok, new question: Taking advice at playing with bots (ps everything is harder than it looks of course! ) How decent are the bots from a comparative viewpoint? Does someone have a mark of something I should shoot for before trying a MM game?

Out of town at the moment so my first games were not playing on my computer and its hard cuz the shitty pc I'm on lags really bad. Really looking forward to getting play some without lag.
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
January 29 2012 02:16 GMT
#1371
Bots are really really bad, but so is the entry level of MMR.

Should be fine.
WriterXiao8~~
3Y3S
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada177 Posts
January 29 2012 02:28 GMT
#1372
bots are there for you to basically do a few things, familiarize yourself with the models/spells of the hero, get a feel for the layout of the map and basically "introduce" you to the concept of last hitting. the point you should leave playing bots is when you can basically tell what each hero can do in general, for example you see an omniknight and you know oh he has a heal a bkb an annoying slow and a cool ult, etc etc, once you can basically do that for 2/3rds of the heroes then you should be fine playin g in matchmaking. you might aswell just watch a stream aimed at newer players or a vod for that ( luminous started a learning with lumi series that should be educational)
Kaemon
Profile Joined September 2011
Spain52 Posts
January 30 2012 15:36 GMT
#1373
Did Rasta's Serpent Wards got nerfed at some point in the last years? I recently played him on Dota 2 (randomized him), and I had Lv16+Scepter, by the time everyone was Lv14-17; and they weren't doing the damage I expected form them with all focusing the same Shackled/Sheeped hero.
I saw their damage is Piercing now (quite inefective against heroes I guess), was it always that way?

I didn't expect them to instant-kill; but man they were worthless when not pushing a tower...

And on a second question... Not an expert in the competitive gameplay, even if I do pretty good (at times) on normal games. What's the exact deal with Nature's Prophet in serious games? I know he can push and be anywere, and is often a Ban or Pick in competitive. But... What exactly is he suposed to do during all the game?
I ask, because every frigging time there is a Furion in my team, he keeps spamming ulti for farm, and going from side to side stealing farm from hardcore carries... Yeah, they push when they see an opening; but more often than not while leaving us on a 4v5 Team Fight (with half the team's gold on his greedy ass), to later get killed (or forced to flee) by a single enemy using scroll...

I would like to know what should exact be his rol, so I can yell at my team's Furion in better and more instructive ways.
Seriously... I'm sick of them getting half of the farm, teleporting from wave to wave, to get some DPS items and die on a single stun duration... While our Spectre or Void is walking around naked with nowhere to go.

Thanks in advance.
Raidern
Profile Joined February 2005
Brazil3811 Posts
January 30 2012 15:43 GMT
#1374
how do I identify professional games to watch? Or where can I find good replays?
For the Swarm!
Altsa
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Finland990 Posts
January 30 2012 15:44 GMT
#1375
^The damage has always been piercing, and iirc in wc3 piercing type damage is reduced by 50% against hero type armor. Also if their armor is high, the damage drops even more. Also a fact that is often forgotten, the wards have splash damage.
AoD
lozarian
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1043 Posts
January 30 2012 16:20 GMT
#1376
Wards got nerfed a while ago in number and damage, certainly aghanims wards lost a number of wards, was it 14 to 11? This was due to tha change in sceptre recipie - was too strong for it's price. You might be remembering old aghast wards.

As for furion - his role depends on the team, but really you should think of him as a serial opportunist. He takes every spare moment to do something awkward. Turning gangs around, exerting map control, pushing when the enemy are distracted. He becomes a carry the same way sf does - by farmng faster than everyone else. Most pub furious are too passive, but it's hard to rely on others.

To be honest, he should be involved in almost everything
For every battle honour a thousand heroes die alone, unsung, and unremembered.
scorch-
Profile Joined January 2011
United States816 Posts
January 30 2012 16:30 GMT
#1377
On January 29 2012 11:16 Kipsate wrote:
Bots are really really bad, but so is the entry level of MMR.

Should be fine.


I haven't spent a lot of time playing with the bots, but they are pretty good at last hitting. As a new player, you should be spending 100% of your time learning how to last hit and what each hero's spells do and what items do, so bots are definitely the way to go.
Charger
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2405 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-30 19:03:45
January 30 2012 17:23 GMT
#1378
I want to get into Dota 2 or LoL, if for no other reason than to see why so many people play them. I have never played another moba type game before. I don't have time to thoroughly give each game a test run (and I don't have Dota 2 key) otherwise that's exactly what I'd do. I won't be playing competitively as in trying to go pro or anything but I would like to do as well as I can. I typically prefer 'original' games - as in Dota started it all - so that kind of has me leaning towards Dota 2 but I am so lost when it comes to these games.

In short, which game should I get started in the moba genre with?

edit - I just realized this was in the Simple Qs Simple As thread in the Dota 2 subforum lol. Please TRY to give unbiased feedback. :p
It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.
Hoban
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1600 Posts
January 30 2012 17:51 GMT
#1379
@Charger: I assume you are talking Dota 2 vs LoL. I play both and here is my input. LoL is a game, to me, that you can play effectively focusing solely on strategy. The mechanical threshold for LoL is much much lower than that of Dota 2. It is still strategically intense though and absolutely a fun game. Dota 2, in contrast, has a higher mechanical skill cap. Things also require more overall awareness. Generally, I can spend 12 hours a day playing LoL and feel mentally worn out. If I spend about half that time with Dota 2, I get the same feeling. For me, Dota 2 requires much more attention and focus.

I'll tl;dr:
Both games are fun and strategically intense. LoL has a lower learning curve. Dota 2 has a higher mechanical skill cap and is more mentally exhausting.
"I am a leaf on the wind."
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
12084 Posts
January 30 2012 18:11 GMT
#1380
As things are, start out with lol or HoN. You won't get to play Dota 2 for a while and playing DotA isn't any fun if you can't see past the things that are wrong with WC3 in a modern setting and/or am used to the game. LoL is the simplest game in the lot, where getting a small lead has more impact than in DotA or HoN on a high level. On low level both teams will make so many mistakes that it doesn't matter. When Dota 2 is easier to get move on to that and expect to need to learn to do new things since it is harder to perform well (also a factor of how old the game is, many player has been playing it much longer than LoL has existed).

As for why I like DotA over LoL, the complexity and the rewards that gives. I just feel like each DotA game has more to offer than each LoL game. Part of this is from how many active items there are, the other part is harder to define to me.
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