EPTOn December 10 2011 00:08 PassiveAce wrote:
They might not help you if you keep calling them champs xD
They might not help you if you keep calling them champs xD
And opening with bottle is sub optimal imo.
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 46
| Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy |
|
Qbek
Poland12923 Posts
And opening with bottle is sub optimal imo. | ||
|
scorch-
United States816 Posts
Haha, that's a kind way to put it. Bottle first is exploitable. Reliable regen (salve/trees/clarities) + stats items are much better to start with. 4 branches is 76 hp and 52 mana (on top of the +4 damage) which is nothing to laugh about at level 1. Usually about 25% hp buff. Hypothetical situation where you have a mirror matchup in middle: If you go bottle first and opponent buys stats items and regen... he can run directly at you at level 1 and auto-attack you and you have to run away. If you try to fight, you will die or be forced to use all your bottle charges to heal up while enemy hero will salve and win the lane with superior last-hitting. You've lost the lane if your opponent looks at your starting items (which is what you should do as soon as you get to the lane). | ||
|
lozarian
United Kingdom1043 Posts
On December 09 2011 23:24 Fruscainte wrote: Alright, thanks for the help. Also, what champs should I open with bottle? None. You have nothing but conditional regen. You will be out csed, out harassed, and lose in any straight up fight. and if you miss either ofthe first two runes you are fucked. If and only if you random, and someone else has already gt hi ken and wards should you even consider bottle first. Then you could still probably do better buying a ton of stats items, and bullying the shit out of your lane, then getting a fast bottle after. | ||
|
Qbek
Poland12923 Posts
| ||
|
Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 10 2011 00:08 PassiveAce wrote: They might not help you if you keep calling them champs xD Dude whatever lol. I haven't even played LoL in like, over a year and a half. I just call them heroes, champions, whatever interchangeably. Don't really see the difference. | ||
|
HyukeN
United States85 Posts
| ||
|
scorch-
United States816 Posts
On December 10 2011 07:56 HyukeN wrote: So I'm playing pubs. My team does a 2-1-2 where I'm soloing mid and the other team is doing a 1-1-0 with 3 stun/slow gankers. What are some ways to counter this or at least avoid dying? wards. if all 3 lanes sit safely behind towers until you have vision of their heroes, you will have 5 decently leveled heroes against 2 high level and 3 level 1 heroes. | ||
|
PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
On December 10 2011 01:42 Fruscainte wrote: Dude whatever lol. I haven't even played LoL in like, over a year and a half. I just call them heroes, champions, whatever interchangeably. Don't really see the difference. I'm just giving you a hard time bud  . I only said anything because I noticed someone called you out on it earlier. (for the record I also played a lot of LoL and I do the same thing all the time.) | ||
|
Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
On December 10 2011 00:48 lozarian wrote: None. You have nothing but conditional regen. You will be out csed, out harassed, and lose in any straight up fight. and if you miss either ofthe first two runes you are fucked. If and only if you random, and someone else has already gt hi ken and wards should you even consider bottle first. Then you could still probably do better buying a ton of stats items, and bullying the shit out of your lane, then getting a fast bottle after. How is it conditionnal regen, if your laning mid and your support have wards to cover the rune spots u can refill the bottle, also runes early game outweigh stats by alot. U guys are assuming the facts that the guy is stupid and is gonna auto attack the ennemy which u can simply not do and lane. If he bumrushes u the creeps will attack him and that +76hp won't help u then he will blow his recevory and u will blow ur bottle but u can restock it with a rune. If ur intelligent and time your encounters around the X2min mark u can fuck him up seriously. I fucked alot of team comp with an aksha bottle first middle lane. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 10 2011 09:51 Darkren wrote: How is it conditionnal regen, if your laning mid and your support have wards to cover the rune spots u can refill the bottle, also runes early game outweigh stats by alot. U guys are assuming the facts that the guy is stupid and is gonna auto attack the ennemy which u can simply not do and lane. If he bumrushes u the creeps will attack him and that +76hp won't help u then he will blow his recevory and u will blow ur bottle but u can restock it with a rune. If ur intelligent and time your encounters around the X2min mark u can fuck him up seriously. I fucked alot of team comp with an aksha bottle first middle lane. You're going to be getting the 2 minute rune less than 50% of the time unless the enemy team is bad and just isn't contesting any of the runes (sometimes you can't leave because you're going to lose a big wave of XP, sometimes the enemy team's sidelane gets to the rune faster, sometimes you just guess wrong which side it's on, etc.). It's not reliable to put your ability to win the lane on your ability to get the 2 minute rune. If you start Tangoes + Salve + 4 branches, your Tangoes + Salve give you more healing than 2 full Bottles, and with decent lasthitting (which you should have compared to someone who started Bottle), you will have your Bottle before the 2 minute mark. | ||
|
superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On December 10 2011 09:51 Darkren wrote: How is it conditionnal regen, if your laning mid and your support have wards to cover the rune spots u can refill the bottle, also runes early game outweigh stats by alot. U guys are assuming the facts that the guy is stupid and is gonna auto attack the ennemy which u can simply not do and lane. If he bumrushes u the creeps will attack him and that +76hp won't help u then he will blow his recevory and u will blow ur bottle but u can restock it with a rune. If ur intelligent and time your encounters around the X2min mark u can fuck him up seriously. I fucked alot of team comp with an aksha bottle first middle lane. 1) Your regen will suck early, meaning easy to harass 2) You have no stats, meaning you will get out csed big time 3) Him having control of the creep wave means you will be a level behind, thus meaning he has a stronger AoE spell at level 3/5 etc. in order to push the wave every :50 second mark, thus allowing him to get runes before you can 4) In any decent level game, if he sees you go bottle first, he just tells his support to camp one rune and he will camp the other, and you're fucked | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34501 Posts
 | ||
|
duckii
Germany1017 Posts
On December 10 2011 10:47 Firebolt145 wrote: The only hero I think bottle first is amazing on is solo mid magmus, but he hasn't been implemented yet. Afaik Sand King is Magmus | ||
|
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34501 Posts
| ||
|
Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
If u have wards u dont have to guess, i also said to take bottle if u have a strong lane presence meaning he cannot push the wave more than u. Also how has he lane control mid lane is special cause u have high ground advantage on both side of ur creeps, meaning if u dont auto attack he can't nuke u unless he has a ward to spot him for vision. Also he cannot bumrush u because otherwise the creeps would fuck him up + u hitting him, worst case scenario u both back up to regen he blows his recovery and u can go cap the rune and replenish. Also the stats differance isn't that much for last hitting seing as some heros start with bigger base stats and base attack then others. If ur gonna respond and tell me how im wrong take in account what i said and don't just ignore part of my argument to tell me im wrong. | ||
|
FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
| ||
|
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34501 Posts
| ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 10 2011 11:17 Darkren wrote: I said have wards up.... u guys are just missreading what i wrote. If u have wards u dont have to guess, i also said to take bottle if u have a strong lane presence meaning he cannot push the wave more than u. Also how has he lane control mid lane is special cause u have high ground advantage on both side of ur creeps, meaning if u dont auto attack he can't nuke u unless he has a ward to spot him for vision. Also he cannot bumrush u because otherwise the creeps would fuck him up + u hitting him, worst case scenario u both back up to regen he blows his recovery and u can go cap the rune and replenish. Also the stats differance isn't that much for last hitting seing as some heros start with bigger base stats and base attack then others. If ur gonna respond and tell me how im wrong take in account what i said and don't just ignore part of my argument to tell me im wrong. Wards don't help, if laners move to both rune spots before they spawn. You can't afford to wait until you have vision of the rune to leave mid (as a proactive team will be prepared to take the rune the moment it spawns), so you still have to guess. They know that you not getting the rune will fuck you over, so they will be at the rune before it spawns. And again, you still have to play defensively in lane because he has more regen/stats advantage. This means that someone who started consumables + 4 branches will be able to get the lasthits he needs to have his Bottle before the 2 minute rune spawns. There's no reason to have the Bottle at the start when a more stable item opening allows you to get Bottle before the 2nd rune spawns. | ||
|
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34501 Posts
Other than that I cannot think of a single hero where you'd go bottle first in a serious game. | ||
|
Fruscainte
4596 Posts
So don't open bottle, but get it relatively early on some champs because you need that early farm from your initial items that bottle doesn't give? Got it. | ||
| ||
