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After claiming that armor has diminishing returns and Mjollnir is a horrible item, yup.
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On October 15 2012 05:12 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 03:38 r.Evo wrote:On October 15 2012 01:48 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 01:19 r.Evo wrote:On October 14 2012 23:48 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 14 2012 03:44 boxman22 wrote:
I played one game with alchemist today and was surprised by how much gold you can rake in with him now. The buffs to basically everything he does makes him significantly better. Is it best to go radiance with him or some of the other damage items (like mjollnir)? Should you go buriza after that or heart to make you even tankier? The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart. I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good. Vanguard is just an awkward item in general. IF... - ...you want the vit booster for buffer anyway (most of the time on most melee hardcarries)
- ...you need the RoH for laning anyway (usually in those situations Tranquils are a great option or, on Alchemist, if he can hit level 6 comfortably he's fine without either),
- ...you can't make use of Battlefury/Linkens
- ...you are melee
- ...you want to participate quickly in fights...
...Vanguard is a good option. Let's check through that list for Alchemist. BF/Linkens are no options, there are certain situations where you could say that a quick RoH would be great but you usually have no reason to participate in teamfights right after your first 1-2 medium items. In general, whenever you can get away without building a Vanguard you should aim to not build it. Considering that Alchemist is a Str carry he gets less out of a Manta than Agi carries in terms of damage. IF he gets kited in fights that little bit of additional movespeed won't change it and a BKB would be much better in those situations. Mjollnir is great because it gives you damage, attackspeed and additional pushing power outside of your Radiance (if you got one) and Acid Spray. Edit: As others pointed out I think AC/BKB > Heart for him as "defensive items" in most situations, simply because the threat of being bursted down is much smaller for him compared to other melee hardcarries due to his ultimate. Mjollnir is just a stupid item no use in team fights, i don't see bkb being too great on him i think he'd be able to survive naturally, AC is good i still stand by saying manta is good there's so much you gain from it, debuff things, illusions, AS and MS bonus. And probably santanic after a damage item not too sure about him though haven't touched him in ages. If you suggest Manta because the movespeed lets you get kited less then BKB is always a better suggestion. THAT item does not let you get kited but the movespeed should be no reasoning to get it. Satanic is nice. Why is Mjollnir a stupid item? A reasoning would be nice. I'm pretty sure i've stated all the benefits to manta earlier and not getting bkb is because you'd be able to take up alot of spells, it's situational as always for bkb. And mjollnir for 5.6k honestly there are tons of better choices out there. The 24 damage is pretty pathetic, the chain lightning prog isn't too useful when you're intending to 5v5 team fight and 150 dmg isn't really alot late game. I see mjollnir as more of a pushing item, while the attack speed MIGHT be nice i rather invest the gold into something like an AC is better. Personally my build on alchem would be Power treads/ BoT (late game), Manta, Radiance, AC, Vanguard, One last dmg item like mkb, buriza, bkb if you ever want to or save the slot for aegies. Why i rank manta so highly is that it gives you a lot of versatility not just the increase MS but AS as well as the ability to dodge spells, break free from them and have 2 more alchemist running havoc. In team fights mjollnir just doesn't offer as much as other items do. It's similar to a battle fury late game they sell it to get a better item even though battle fury gives pretty good damage. There are better options out there.
It's not that Manta is a bad item, it's because manta as third items (I assume you get it after radiance and vanguard) is pretty generic, because the stats and benefit it gives doesn't make it stand out (bkb gives the same +10 strength, +24 damage and also magic immunity, mjollnir gives +24 damage, +80 attack speed and 25% pseudo-crit 150 magic damage) I still don't understand why you call mjollnir giving +24 damage is pathetic while manta only gives +10 damage. The MIrror Image spell doesn't really buff any Alchemist's feature to the extreme like other items. Even YnS is arguably a better item considering the stats and cost and benefit it gives.
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On October 15 2012 06:19 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 05:12 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 03:38 r.Evo wrote:On October 15 2012 01:48 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 01:19 r.Evo wrote:On October 14 2012 23:48 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 14 2012 03:44 boxman22 wrote:
I played one game with alchemist today and was surprised by how much gold you can rake in with him now. The buffs to basically everything he does makes him significantly better. Is it best to go radiance with him or some of the other damage items (like mjollnir)? Should you go buriza after that or heart to make you even tankier? The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart. I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good. Vanguard is just an awkward item in general. IF... - ...you want the vit booster for buffer anyway (most of the time on most melee hardcarries)
- ...you need the RoH for laning anyway (usually in those situations Tranquils are a great option or, on Alchemist, if he can hit level 6 comfortably he's fine without either),
- ...you can't make use of Battlefury/Linkens
- ...you are melee
- ...you want to participate quickly in fights...
...Vanguard is a good option. Let's check through that list for Alchemist. BF/Linkens are no options, there are certain situations where you could say that a quick RoH would be great but you usually have no reason to participate in teamfights right after your first 1-2 medium items. In general, whenever you can get away without building a Vanguard you should aim to not build it. Considering that Alchemist is a Str carry he gets less out of a Manta than Agi carries in terms of damage. IF he gets kited in fights that little bit of additional movespeed won't change it and a BKB would be much better in those situations. Mjollnir is great because it gives you damage, attackspeed and additional pushing power outside of your Radiance (if you got one) and Acid Spray. Edit: As others pointed out I think AC/BKB > Heart for him as "defensive items" in most situations, simply because the threat of being bursted down is much smaller for him compared to other melee hardcarries due to his ultimate. Mjollnir is just a stupid item no use in team fights, i don't see bkb being too great on him i think he'd be able to survive naturally, AC is good i still stand by saying manta is good there's so much you gain from it, debuff things, illusions, AS and MS bonus. And probably santanic after a damage item not too sure about him though haven't touched him in ages. If you suggest Manta because the movespeed lets you get kited less then BKB is always a better suggestion. THAT item does not let you get kited but the movespeed should be no reasoning to get it. Satanic is nice. Why is Mjollnir a stupid item? A reasoning would be nice. I'm pretty sure i've stated all the benefits to manta earlier and not getting bkb is because you'd be able to take up alot of spells, it's situational as always for bkb. And mjollnir for 5.6k honestly there are tons of better choices out there. The 24 damage is pretty pathetic, the chain lightning prog isn't too useful when you're intending to 5v5 team fight and 150 dmg isn't really alot late game. I see mjollnir as more of a pushing item, while the attack speed MIGHT be nice i rather invest the gold into something like an AC is better. Personally my build on alchem would be Power treads/ BoT (late game), Manta, Radiance, AC, Vanguard, One last dmg item like mkb, buriza, bkb if you ever want to or save the slot for aegies. Why i rank manta so highly is that it gives you a lot of versatility not just the increase MS but AS as well as the ability to dodge spells, break free from them and have 2 more alchemist running havoc. In team fights mjollnir just doesn't offer as much as other items do. It's similar to a battle fury late game they sell it to get a better item even though battle fury gives pretty good damage. There are better options out there. It's not that Manta is a bad item, it's because manta as third items (I assume you get it after radiance and vanguard) is pretty generic, because the stats and benefit it gives doesn't make it stand out (bkb gives the same +10 strength, +24 damage and also magic immunity, mjollnir gives +24 damage, +80 attack speed and 25% pseudo-crit 150 magic damage) I still don't understand why you call mjollnir giving +24 damage is pathetic while manta only gives +10 damage. The MIrror Image spell doesn't really buff any Alchemist's feature to the extreme like other items.
Yes third item. Because your are missing the point and strength of manta with proper usage of it you can dodge spells and break debuffs. I don't get why people are just focusing on the stats of the item instead of viewing the whole item. They only see oh illusion, oh stat gain. Like when CM frost bites you, you can just manta out of it, you can manta and run, manta out of bear entangle, there's so much things you can do with manta. You can soft push with your illusions. When like viper is going to viper strike you, you can manta dodge it. You can use manta to help you go to low ground, juke them by sending an illusion back and keeping your main hero attacking. And why not just get a bkb it's a possible choice but it's a case by case basis. The illusions don't just deal damage they create diversion, the enemy has to find with is the real hero, creates distraction, able to target supports there's so much utility in it rather than just theory crafting it based on damage and what not.
Mjollnir is magical damage so it's 25% reduced and i'm not sure if each bounce decreases again not too sure about the mechanics. If you wanted a damage item i personally feel that mjollnir doesn't offer as much as a mkb, buriza does.
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United States47024 Posts
You still haven't answered why you would buy Vanguard over Vit+Hood.
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On October 15 2012 06:25 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 06:19 canikizu wrote:On October 15 2012 05:12 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 03:38 r.Evo wrote:On October 15 2012 01:48 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 01:19 r.Evo wrote:On October 14 2012 23:48 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 14 2012 03:44 boxman22 wrote:
I played one game with alchemist today and was surprised by how much gold you can rake in with him now. The buffs to basically everything he does makes him significantly better. Is it best to go radiance with him or some of the other damage items (like mjollnir)? Should you go buriza after that or heart to make you even tankier? The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart. I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good. Vanguard is just an awkward item in general. IF... - ...you want the vit booster for buffer anyway (most of the time on most melee hardcarries)
- ...you need the RoH for laning anyway (usually in those situations Tranquils are a great option or, on Alchemist, if he can hit level 6 comfortably he's fine without either),
- ...you can't make use of Battlefury/Linkens
- ...you are melee
- ...you want to participate quickly in fights...
...Vanguard is a good option. Let's check through that list for Alchemist. BF/Linkens are no options, there are certain situations where you could say that a quick RoH would be great but you usually have no reason to participate in teamfights right after your first 1-2 medium items. In general, whenever you can get away without building a Vanguard you should aim to not build it. Considering that Alchemist is a Str carry he gets less out of a Manta than Agi carries in terms of damage. IF he gets kited in fights that little bit of additional movespeed won't change it and a BKB would be much better in those situations. Mjollnir is great because it gives you damage, attackspeed and additional pushing power outside of your Radiance (if you got one) and Acid Spray. Edit: As others pointed out I think AC/BKB > Heart for him as "defensive items" in most situations, simply because the threat of being bursted down is much smaller for him compared to other melee hardcarries due to his ultimate. Mjollnir is just a stupid item no use in team fights, i don't see bkb being too great on him i think he'd be able to survive naturally, AC is good i still stand by saying manta is good there's so much you gain from it, debuff things, illusions, AS and MS bonus. And probably santanic after a damage item not too sure about him though haven't touched him in ages. If you suggest Manta because the movespeed lets you get kited less then BKB is always a better suggestion. THAT item does not let you get kited but the movespeed should be no reasoning to get it. Satanic is nice. Why is Mjollnir a stupid item? A reasoning would be nice. I'm pretty sure i've stated all the benefits to manta earlier and not getting bkb is because you'd be able to take up alot of spells, it's situational as always for bkb. And mjollnir for 5.6k honestly there are tons of better choices out there. The 24 damage is pretty pathetic, the chain lightning prog isn't too useful when you're intending to 5v5 team fight and 150 dmg isn't really alot late game. I see mjollnir as more of a pushing item, while the attack speed MIGHT be nice i rather invest the gold into something like an AC is better. Personally my build on alchem would be Power treads/ BoT (late game), Manta, Radiance, AC, Vanguard, One last dmg item like mkb, buriza, bkb if you ever want to or save the slot for aegies. Why i rank manta so highly is that it gives you a lot of versatility not just the increase MS but AS as well as the ability to dodge spells, break free from them and have 2 more alchemist running havoc. In team fights mjollnir just doesn't offer as much as other items do. It's similar to a battle fury late game they sell it to get a better item even though battle fury gives pretty good damage. There are better options out there. It's not that Manta is a bad item, it's because manta as third items (I assume you get it after radiance and vanguard) is pretty generic, because the stats and benefit it gives doesn't make it stand out (bkb gives the same +10 strength, +24 damage and also magic immunity, mjollnir gives +24 damage, +80 attack speed and 25% pseudo-crit 150 magic damage) I still don't understand why you call mjollnir giving +24 damage is pathetic while manta only gives +10 damage. The MIrror Image spell doesn't really buff any Alchemist's feature to the extreme like other items. Yes third item. Because your are missing the point and strength of manta with proper usage of it you can dodge spells and break debuffs. I don't get why people are just focusing on the stats of the item instead of viewing the whole item. They only see oh illusion, oh stat gain. Like when CM frost bites you, you can just manta out of it, you can manta and run, manta out of bear entangle, there's so much things you can do with manta. You can soft push with your illusions. And why not just get a bkb it's a possible choice but it's a case by case basis. Mjollnir is magical damage so it's 25% reduced and i'm not sure if each bounce decreases again not too sure about the mechanics. If you wanted a damage item i personally feel that mjollnir doesn't offer as much as a mkb, buriza does.
Multiple people have told you that BKB is superior and it isn't on a case by case basis on the very first page of this discussion. You're buying manta to split a debuff when you can just be immune to it. Stop being retarded.
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On October 15 2012 06:36 TheYango wrote:
You still haven't answered why you would buy Vanguard over Vit+Hood.
It depends on how you want to run him whether you're using him has a pipe carrier or not. If there's another hero on the team with pipe already i won't buy hood unless you want to use him as pipe carrier which is possible as well just tank all the spells.
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On October 15 2012 06:38 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 06:25 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 06:19 canikizu wrote:On October 15 2012 05:12 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 03:38 r.Evo wrote:On October 15 2012 01:48 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 01:19 r.Evo wrote:On October 14 2012 23:48 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 14 2012 03:44 boxman22 wrote:
I played one game with alchemist today and was surprised by how much gold you can rake in with him now. The buffs to basically everything he does makes him significantly better. Is it best to go radiance with him or some of the other damage items (like mjollnir)? Should you go buriza after that or heart to make you even tankier? The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart. I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good. Vanguard is just an awkward item in general. IF... - ...you want the vit booster for buffer anyway (most of the time on most melee hardcarries)
- ...you need the RoH for laning anyway (usually in those situations Tranquils are a great option or, on Alchemist, if he can hit level 6 comfortably he's fine without either),
- ...you can't make use of Battlefury/Linkens
- ...you are melee
- ...you want to participate quickly in fights...
...Vanguard is a good option. Let's check through that list for Alchemist. BF/Linkens are no options, there are certain situations where you could say that a quick RoH would be great but you usually have no reason to participate in teamfights right after your first 1-2 medium items. In general, whenever you can get away without building a Vanguard you should aim to not build it. Considering that Alchemist is a Str carry he gets less out of a Manta than Agi carries in terms of damage. IF he gets kited in fights that little bit of additional movespeed won't change it and a BKB would be much better in those situations. Mjollnir is great because it gives you damage, attackspeed and additional pushing power outside of your Radiance (if you got one) and Acid Spray. Edit: As others pointed out I think AC/BKB > Heart for him as "defensive items" in most situations, simply because the threat of being bursted down is much smaller for him compared to other melee hardcarries due to his ultimate. Mjollnir is just a stupid item no use in team fights, i don't see bkb being too great on him i think he'd be able to survive naturally, AC is good i still stand by saying manta is good there's so much you gain from it, debuff things, illusions, AS and MS bonus. And probably santanic after a damage item not too sure about him though haven't touched him in ages. If you suggest Manta because the movespeed lets you get kited less then BKB is always a better suggestion. THAT item does not let you get kited but the movespeed should be no reasoning to get it. Satanic is nice. Why is Mjollnir a stupid item? A reasoning would be nice. I'm pretty sure i've stated all the benefits to manta earlier and not getting bkb is because you'd be able to take up alot of spells, it's situational as always for bkb. And mjollnir for 5.6k honestly there are tons of better choices out there. The 24 damage is pretty pathetic, the chain lightning prog isn't too useful when you're intending to 5v5 team fight and 150 dmg isn't really alot late game. I see mjollnir as more of a pushing item, while the attack speed MIGHT be nice i rather invest the gold into something like an AC is better. Personally my build on alchem would be Power treads/ BoT (late game), Manta, Radiance, AC, Vanguard, One last dmg item like mkb, buriza, bkb if you ever want to or save the slot for aegies. Why i rank manta so highly is that it gives you a lot of versatility not just the increase MS but AS as well as the ability to dodge spells, break free from them and have 2 more alchemist running havoc. In team fights mjollnir just doesn't offer as much as other items do. It's similar to a battle fury late game they sell it to get a better item even though battle fury gives pretty good damage. There are better options out there. It's not that Manta is a bad item, it's because manta as third items (I assume you get it after radiance and vanguard) is pretty generic, because the stats and benefit it gives doesn't make it stand out (bkb gives the same +10 strength, +24 damage and also magic immunity, mjollnir gives +24 damage, +80 attack speed and 25% pseudo-crit 150 magic damage) I still don't understand why you call mjollnir giving +24 damage is pathetic while manta only gives +10 damage. The MIrror Image spell doesn't really buff any Alchemist's feature to the extreme like other items. Yes third item. Because your are missing the point and strength of manta with proper usage of it you can dodge spells and break debuffs. I don't get why people are just focusing on the stats of the item instead of viewing the whole item. They only see oh illusion, oh stat gain. Like when CM frost bites you, you can just manta out of it, you can manta and run, manta out of bear entangle, there's so much things you can do with manta. You can soft push with your illusions. And why not just get a bkb it's a possible choice but it's a case by case basis. Mjollnir is magical damage so it's 25% reduced and i'm not sure if each bounce decreases again not too sure about the mechanics. If you wanted a damage item i personally feel that mjollnir doesn't offer as much as a mkb, buriza does. Multiple people have told you that BKB is superior and it isn't on a case by case basis on the very first page of this discussion. You're buying manta to split a debuff when you can just be immune to it. Stop being retarded.
Like i said many times manta is a utility item if you don't get it already there's nothing i can say to you but to just stop looking at it individually with everything manta brings it's a great utility item, getting bkb isn't that useful at times. There are cases where by they don't have many spells that require you to get bkb to counter them. Dota is not a theory craft game where by you go i MUST GO bkb
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Lalalaland34501 Posts
On October 15 2012 06:05 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 06:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
3rd or 4th item manta, sure.
1st item manta? No. No one is fucking talking about getting manta first can you fucking read some of the posts?
You're talking about how you need manta to defend the early pushes that come before the 3 item mark. That's a pretty early manta.
Also, get off your high horse.
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On October 15 2012 06:49 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 06:05 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 06:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
3rd or 4th item manta, sure.
1st item manta? No. No one is fucking talking about getting manta first can you fucking read some of the posts? You're talking about how you need manta to defend the early pushes that come before the 3 item mark. That's a pretty early manta. Also, get off your high horse.
I was saying vanguard is a good item to get because it increases your heroes capability allowing you to hold pushes and I said manta makes a good third item because of the utility it gives.
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On October 15 2012 06:43 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 06:38 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 15 2012 06:25 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 06:19 canikizu wrote:On October 15 2012 05:12 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 03:38 r.Evo wrote:On October 15 2012 01:48 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 01:19 r.Evo wrote:On October 14 2012 23:48 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:
[quote]
The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart. I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good. Vanguard is just an awkward item in general. IF... - ...you want the vit booster for buffer anyway (most of the time on most melee hardcarries)
- ...you need the RoH for laning anyway (usually in those situations Tranquils are a great option or, on Alchemist, if he can hit level 6 comfortably he's fine without either),
- ...you can't make use of Battlefury/Linkens
- ...you are melee
- ...you want to participate quickly in fights...
...Vanguard is a good option. Let's check through that list for Alchemist. BF/Linkens are no options, there are certain situations where you could say that a quick RoH would be great but you usually have no reason to participate in teamfights right after your first 1-2 medium items. In general, whenever you can get away without building a Vanguard you should aim to not build it. Considering that Alchemist is a Str carry he gets less out of a Manta than Agi carries in terms of damage. IF he gets kited in fights that little bit of additional movespeed won't change it and a BKB would be much better in those situations. Mjollnir is great because it gives you damage, attackspeed and additional pushing power outside of your Radiance (if you got one) and Acid Spray. Edit: As others pointed out I think AC/BKB > Heart for him as "defensive items" in most situations, simply because the threat of being bursted down is much smaller for him compared to other melee hardcarries due to his ultimate. Mjollnir is just a stupid item no use in team fights, i don't see bkb being too great on him i think he'd be able to survive naturally, AC is good i still stand by saying manta is good there's so much you gain from it, debuff things, illusions, AS and MS bonus. And probably santanic after a damage item not too sure about him though haven't touched him in ages. If you suggest Manta because the movespeed lets you get kited less then BKB is always a better suggestion. THAT item does not let you get kited but the movespeed should be no reasoning to get it. Satanic is nice. Why is Mjollnir a stupid item? A reasoning would be nice. I'm pretty sure i've stated all the benefits to manta earlier and not getting bkb is because you'd be able to take up alot of spells, it's situational as always for bkb. And mjollnir for 5.6k honestly there are tons of better choices out there. The 24 damage is pretty pathetic, the chain lightning prog isn't too useful when you're intending to 5v5 team fight and 150 dmg isn't really alot late game. I see mjollnir as more of a pushing item, while the attack speed MIGHT be nice i rather invest the gold into something like an AC is better. Personally my build on alchem would be Power treads/ BoT (late game), Manta, Radiance, AC, Vanguard, One last dmg item like mkb, buriza, bkb if you ever want to or save the slot for aegies. Why i rank manta so highly is that it gives you a lot of versatility not just the increase MS but AS as well as the ability to dodge spells, break free from them and have 2 more alchemist running havoc. In team fights mjollnir just doesn't offer as much as other items do. It's similar to a battle fury late game they sell it to get a better item even though battle fury gives pretty good damage. There are better options out there. It's not that Manta is a bad item, it's because manta as third items (I assume you get it after radiance and vanguard) is pretty generic, because the stats and benefit it gives doesn't make it stand out (bkb gives the same +10 strength, +24 damage and also magic immunity, mjollnir gives +24 damage, +80 attack speed and 25% pseudo-crit 150 magic damage) I still don't understand why you call mjollnir giving +24 damage is pathetic while manta only gives +10 damage. The MIrror Image spell doesn't really buff any Alchemist's feature to the extreme like other items. Yes third item. Because your are missing the point and strength of manta with proper usage of it you can dodge spells and break debuffs. I don't get why people are just focusing on the stats of the item instead of viewing the whole item. They only see oh illusion, oh stat gain. Like when CM frost bites you, you can just manta out of it, you can manta and run, manta out of bear entangle, there's so much things you can do with manta. You can soft push with your illusions. And why not just get a bkb it's a possible choice but it's a case by case basis. Mjollnir is magical damage so it's 25% reduced and i'm not sure if each bounce decreases again not too sure about the mechanics. If you wanted a damage item i personally feel that mjollnir doesn't offer as much as a mkb, buriza does. Multiple people have told you that BKB is superior and it isn't on a case by case basis on the very first page of this discussion. You're buying manta to split a debuff when you can just be immune to it. Stop being retarded. Like i said many times manta is a utility item if you don't get it already there's nothing i can say to you but to just stop looking at it individually with everything manta brings it's a great utility item, getting bkb isn't that useful at times. There are cases where by they don't have many spells that require you to get bkb to counter them. Dota is not a theory craft game where by you go i MUST GO bkb
Manta isn't that bad actually. Just in your build it is because none of the items you're making actually benefit illusions. Your illusions are useless so there's absolutely no reason to get them. You're using manta to break a debuff when it'd be far superior to just buy a BKB.
If you're hell bent on the aspd/ms go S&Y. The chasing power of the item should help you stick to people as well.
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On October 15 2012 06:52 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 06:49 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 15 2012 06:05 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 06:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
3rd or 4th item manta, sure.
1st item manta? No. No one is fucking talking about getting manta first can you fucking read some of the posts? You're talking about how you need manta to defend the early pushes that come before the 3 item mark. That's a pretty early manta. Also, get off your high horse. I was saying vanguard is a good item to get because it increases your heroes capability allowing you to hold pushes and I said manta makes a good third item because of the utility it gives.
Listen, just stop arguing. EVERYBODY is disagreeing with you. You're making senseless arguments just like Shikyo. You're a new user here, let me show you what's gonna happen if you keep it up:
On October 06 2012 06:13 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 06:09 Yoshi- wrote:
I am sure that most don't know which spell magnus has in the second slot Really? o.O Because when I play Magnus and level up the spell in the second slot I use the same hotkey I use to level every other spell in the second slot for every other hero ... So you kind of will know. Unless you use legacy hotkeys, I got rid of those as soon as I figured out how to change them but even so I'd imagine you know the slots, especially if you click to level up... If you use legacy keys to level up as well it might be tougher User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 15 2012 06:25 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 06:19 canikizu wrote:On October 15 2012 05:12 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 03:38 r.Evo wrote:On October 15 2012 01:48 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 01:19 r.Evo wrote:On October 14 2012 23:48 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 14 2012 03:44 boxman22 wrote:
I played one game with alchemist today and was surprised by how much gold you can rake in with him now. The buffs to basically everything he does makes him significantly better. Is it best to go radiance with him or some of the other damage items (like mjollnir)? Should you go buriza after that or heart to make you even tankier? The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart. I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good. Vanguard is just an awkward item in general. IF... - ...you want the vit booster for buffer anyway (most of the time on most melee hardcarries)
- ...you need the RoH for laning anyway (usually in those situations Tranquils are a great option or, on Alchemist, if he can hit level 6 comfortably he's fine without either),
- ...you can't make use of Battlefury/Linkens
- ...you are melee
- ...you want to participate quickly in fights...
...Vanguard is a good option. Let's check through that list for Alchemist. BF/Linkens are no options, there are certain situations where you could say that a quick RoH would be great but you usually have no reason to participate in teamfights right after your first 1-2 medium items. In general, whenever you can get away without building a Vanguard you should aim to not build it. Considering that Alchemist is a Str carry he gets less out of a Manta than Agi carries in terms of damage. IF he gets kited in fights that little bit of additional movespeed won't change it and a BKB would be much better in those situations. Mjollnir is great because it gives you damage, attackspeed and additional pushing power outside of your Radiance (if you got one) and Acid Spray. Edit: As others pointed out I think AC/BKB > Heart for him as "defensive items" in most situations, simply because the threat of being bursted down is much smaller for him compared to other melee hardcarries due to his ultimate. Mjollnir is just a stupid item no use in team fights, i don't see bkb being too great on him i think he'd be able to survive naturally, AC is good i still stand by saying manta is good there's so much you gain from it, debuff things, illusions, AS and MS bonus. And probably santanic after a damage item not too sure about him though haven't touched him in ages. If you suggest Manta because the movespeed lets you get kited less then BKB is always a better suggestion. THAT item does not let you get kited but the movespeed should be no reasoning to get it. Satanic is nice. Why is Mjollnir a stupid item? A reasoning would be nice. I'm pretty sure i've stated all the benefits to manta earlier and not getting bkb is because you'd be able to take up alot of spells, it's situational as always for bkb. And mjollnir for 5.6k honestly there are tons of better choices out there. The 24 damage is pretty pathetic, the chain lightning prog isn't too useful when you're intending to 5v5 team fight and 150 dmg isn't really alot late game. I see mjollnir as more of a pushing item, while the attack speed MIGHT be nice i rather invest the gold into something like an AC is better. Personally my build on alchem would be Power treads/ BoT (late game), Manta, Radiance, AC, Vanguard, One last dmg item like mkb, buriza, bkb if you ever want to or save the slot for aegies. Why i rank manta so highly is that it gives you a lot of versatility not just the increase MS but AS as well as the ability to dodge spells, break free from them and have 2 more alchemist running havoc. In team fights mjollnir just doesn't offer as much as other items do. It's similar to a battle fury late game they sell it to get a better item even though battle fury gives pretty good damage. There are better options out there. It's not that Manta is a bad item, it's because manta as third items (I assume you get it after radiance and vanguard) is pretty generic, because the stats and benefit it gives doesn't make it stand out (bkb gives the same +10 strength, +24 damage and also magic immunity, mjollnir gives +24 damage, +80 attack speed and 25% pseudo-crit 150 magic damage) I still don't understand why you call mjollnir giving +24 damage is pathetic while manta only gives +10 damage. The MIrror Image spell doesn't really buff any Alchemist's feature to the extreme like other items. Yes third item. Because your are missing the point and strength of manta with proper usage of it you can dodge spells and break debuffs. I don't get why people are just focusing on the stats of the item instead of viewing the whole item. They only see oh illusion, oh stat gain. Like when CM frost bites you, you can just manta out of it, you can manta and run, manta out of bear entangle, there's so much things you can do with manta. You can soft push with your illusions. When like viper is going to viper strike you, you can manta dodge it. You can use manta to help you go to low ground, juke them by sending an illusion back and keeping your main hero attacking. And why not just get a bkb it's a possible choice but it's a case by case basis. The illusions don't just deal damage they create diversion, the enemy has to find with is the real hero, creates distraction, able to target supports there's so much utility in it rather than just theory crafting it based on damage and what not. Mjollnir is magical damage so it's 25% reduced and i'm not sure if each bounce decreases again not too sure about the mechanics. If you wanted a damage item i personally feel that mjollnir doesn't offer as much as a mkb, buriza does.
So basically you're describing what manta does.
That doesn't give Alchemist any significant benefit, that manta basically does the same thing it does on all other heroes (melee heroes). You can use the same argument for getting manta on sven, dk, sladar,....
Compare it to:
- bkb: Gives you +10 str(hp) boost early (Manta also gives you 10str, but require 2100 gold instead of 1000), in some case you can easily skip vanguard and make bkb as your 2nd item instead of 3rd. In battle, bkb undoubtedly works way better in term of magic countering.
- Mjollnir gives +80 attack speed, and because the way BAT work (Attacks per second = (1 + IAS)/BAT), you basically attack faster 0.4 second compared to manta. that's a big difference. Moreover, you can dissemble mjollnir and go AC faster.
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Why do people rush big damage items like radiance before other defensive items? Sure you can do a massive amount of damage if you don't get focused but what is stopping them from just focusing you down?
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mjolnir is one of the best dps items for alch, if you have no idea how the item works i don't know why you're saying it's a bad item
vanguard is pointless since alch has a million hp regen, vit booster + platemail or vit + cloak/hood gives like a million times more surivivability
you don't need manta to "hold pushes," it helps for sure but it's going to be acid spray doing most of the work until alch gets farmed enough to rightclick things
manta is not a bad item on alch but your reasoning is kind of absurd. sure bkb is pretty situational, but so is manta. if you don't want to get kited, bkb is the better option most of the time. if you want to soak up damage, manta is going to be more useful
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On October 15 2012 07:18 LazyFailKid wrote:
Why do people rush big damage items like radiance before other defensive items? Sure you can do a massive amount of damage if you don't get focused but what is stopping them from just focusing you down?
A) In order to fulfill your role as the "carry" - your job is dps output, and in most cases little survivability.
B) Most of these big items (Rad, Battlefury) increase your farming capability by a TON. Your job is to farm effectively, not teamfight repeatedly. Thus, your survivability is irrelevant.
Money is power, even in Dota. Your weakness is not going to fill itself, you need gold to buy that item. (Usually BKB for carries). What helps you obtain gold as fast as possible? Those big damage items.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 15 2012 07:18 LazyFailKid wrote:
Why do people rush big damage items like radiance before other defensive items? Sure you can do a massive amount of damage if you don't get focused but what is stopping them from just focusing you down?
Radiance is a farming item, not just a damage item. Early Radiance on a carry is most often aimed at teamfighting/pushing 1-2 big items after your Radiance, not right when you get it.
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But couldn't the enemy team just run around ganking you 24/7 since you have low survivability?
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On October 15 2012 08:02 LazyFailKid wrote:
But couldn't the enemy team just run around ganking you 24/7 since you have low survivability?
They can try, but you shouldn't be farming in a position where they can kill you. Ideally they'd want to gank you close to when you're going to buy the relic so you lose a huge amount of gold (delaying the relic and radiance timing). Interrupting your farming afterwards is still useful, but not as good. If their team is coming into gank you then your team should be accomplishing something elsewhere; Counter ganking and winning the teamfight or pushing towers Then they have to decide if they want to defend their tower and allow you to free farm or lose their tower. You need your team to create the space for you to farm.
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On October 15 2012 08:02 LazyFailKid wrote:
But couldn't the enemy team just run around ganking you 24/7 since you have low survivability?
That's usually where your buddies and the enemy teamcomp comes into play. In most of the cases it's up to the other four guys in your team to make stuff happen while you farm. Ideally they find ways to pressure while also generating the mapcontrol needed for you to get that gold flow going. Against strong lineups without a hardcarry your team has to find ways to handle the pressure without you or with you helping out at the last possible second.
I'm pretty sure one can write whole articles about this but it kind of boils down to "Whichever team scales weaker into lategame has to make stuff happen".
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EPT
