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On October 15 2012 03:38 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 01:48 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 01:19 r.Evo wrote:On October 14 2012 23:48 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 14 2012 03:44 boxman22 wrote:
I played one game with alchemist today and was surprised by how much gold you can rake in with him now. The buffs to basically everything he does makes him significantly better. Is it best to go radiance with him or some of the other damage items (like mjollnir)? Should you go buriza after that or heart to make you even tankier? The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart. I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good. Vanguard is just an awkward item in general. IF... - ...you want the vit booster for buffer anyway (most of the time on most melee hardcarries)
- ...you need the RoH for laning anyway (usually in those situations Tranquils are a great option or, on Alchemist, if he can hit level 6 comfortably he's fine without either),
- ...you can't make use of Battlefury/Linkens
- ...you are melee
- ...you want to participate quickly in fights...
...Vanguard is a good option. Let's check through that list for Alchemist. BF/Linkens are no options, there are certain situations where you could say that a quick RoH would be great but you usually have no reason to participate in teamfights right after your first 1-2 medium items. In general, whenever you can get away without building a Vanguard you should aim to not build it. Considering that Alchemist is a Str carry he gets less out of a Manta than Agi carries in terms of damage. IF he gets kited in fights that little bit of additional movespeed won't change it and a BKB would be much better in those situations. Mjollnir is great because it gives you damage, attackspeed and additional pushing power outside of your Radiance (if you got one) and Acid Spray. Edit: As others pointed out I think AC/BKB > Heart for him as "defensive items" in most situations, simply because the threat of being bursted down is much smaller for him compared to other melee hardcarries due to his ultimate. Mjollnir is just a stupid item no use in team fights, i don't see bkb being too great on him i think he'd be able to survive naturally, AC is good i still stand by saying manta is good there's so much you gain from it, debuff things, illusions, AS and MS bonus. And probably santanic after a damage item not too sure about him though haven't touched him in ages. If you suggest Manta because the movespeed lets you get kited less then BKB is always a better suggestion. THAT item does not let you get kited but the movespeed should be no reasoning to get it. Satanic is nice. Why is Mjollnir a stupid item? A reasoning would be nice.
I'm pretty sure i've stated all the benefits to manta earlier and not getting bkb is because you'd be able to take up alot of spells, it's situational as always for bkb. And mjollnir for 5.6k honestly there are tons of better choices out there. The 24 damage is pretty pathetic, the chain lightning prog isn't too useful when you're intending to 5v5 team fight and 150 dmg isn't really alot late game. I see mjollnir as more of a pushing item, while the attack speed MIGHT be nice i rather invest the gold into something like an AC is better.
Personally my build on alchem would be Power treads/ BoT (late game), Manta, Radiance, AC, Vanguard, One last dmg item like mkb, buriza, bkb if you ever want to or save the slot for aegies. Why i rank manta so highly is that it gives you a lot of versatility not just the increase MS but AS as well as the ability to dodge spells, break free from them and have 2 more alchemist running havoc. In team fights mjollnir just doesn't offer as much as other items do. It's similar to a battle fury late game they sell it to get a better item even though battle fury gives pretty good damage. There are better options out there.
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- Manta first item is bad. On like ANY hardcarry in the game there are better item choices. No farm power at all, no laning strength.
- Radiance first item is probably his strongest opening when you can get to it.
- Mjollnir should be a substitute for Radiance in most cases. It's weaker as a farming item but its build up is much smoother. Also the chainprocs + the active do more damage in most teamfights than e.g. a Battlefury if you want to compare it to other "farmy" items.
- Vanguard is, as explained earlier, a mediocre item to get quickly and just trash to get late in the game. It's not slot efficient at all.
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Makes sense. Mjollnir and Radiance have the exact same purpose, to zone out the support / do some aoe damage. You would never get both, Mjollnir is a substitute Radiance if you can't get it early enough.
Manta is the only thing questionable, he's not agility based, nor does he have high damage. Seems more like a utility / tank build if you got that first. I could see it working AFTER Radiance, since illusions enjoy the radiance AoE.
* What Evo said. Manta first is awful, and VanG that late is a pathetic item. Just grab the Vit booster and build a heart if you really want survivability.
Other "standard" is Phase boots -->Vanguard --> Radiance, as opposed to Treads + Manta.
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On October 15 2012 05:12 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 03:38 r.Evo wrote:On October 15 2012 01:48 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 01:19 r.Evo wrote:On October 14 2012 23:48 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 14 2012 03:44 boxman22 wrote:
I played one game with alchemist today and was surprised by how much gold you can rake in with him now. The buffs to basically everything he does makes him significantly better. Is it best to go radiance with him or some of the other damage items (like mjollnir)? Should you go buriza after that or heart to make you even tankier? The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart. I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good. Vanguard is just an awkward item in general. IF... - ...you want the vit booster for buffer anyway (most of the time on most melee hardcarries)
- ...you need the RoH for laning anyway (usually in those situations Tranquils are a great option or, on Alchemist, if he can hit level 6 comfortably he's fine without either),
- ...you can't make use of Battlefury/Linkens
- ...you are melee
- ...you want to participate quickly in fights...
...Vanguard is a good option. Let's check through that list for Alchemist. BF/Linkens are no options, there are certain situations where you could say that a quick RoH would be great but you usually have no reason to participate in teamfights right after your first 1-2 medium items. In general, whenever you can get away without building a Vanguard you should aim to not build it. Considering that Alchemist is a Str carry he gets less out of a Manta than Agi carries in terms of damage. IF he gets kited in fights that little bit of additional movespeed won't change it and a BKB would be much better in those situations. Mjollnir is great because it gives you damage, attackspeed and additional pushing power outside of your Radiance (if you got one) and Acid Spray. Edit: As others pointed out I think AC/BKB > Heart for him as "defensive items" in most situations, simply because the threat of being bursted down is much smaller for him compared to other melee hardcarries due to his ultimate. Mjollnir is just a stupid item no use in team fights, i don't see bkb being too great on him i think he'd be able to survive naturally, AC is good i still stand by saying manta is good there's so much you gain from it, debuff things, illusions, AS and MS bonus. And probably santanic after a damage item not too sure about him though haven't touched him in ages. If you suggest Manta because the movespeed lets you get kited less then BKB is always a better suggestion. THAT item does not let you get kited but the movespeed should be no reasoning to get it. Satanic is nice. Why is Mjollnir a stupid item? A reasoning would be nice. I'm pretty sure i've stated all the benefits to manta earlier and not getting bkb is because you'd be able to take up alot of spells, it's situational as always for bkb. And mjollnir for 5.6k honestly there are tons of better choices out there. The 24 damage is pretty pathetic, the chain lightning prog isn't too useful when you're intending to 5v5 team fight and 150 dmg isn't really alot late game. I see mjollnir as more of a pushing item, while the attack speed MIGHT be nice i rather invest the gold into something like an AC is better. Personally my build on alchem would be Power treads/ BoT (late game), Manta, Radiance, AC, Vanguard, One last dmg item like mkb, buriza or save the slot for aegies. Why i rank manta so highly is that it gives you a lot of versatility not just the increase MS but AS as well as the ability to dodge spells, break free from them and have 2 more alchemist running havoc. In team fights mjollnir just doesn't offer as much as other items do.
Manta is pointless if you're not going to build items that actually benefit the illusions. Just get a BKB instead if you want to laugh at spells. If your team doesn't have an AC already then chances are it is better than the Mjo merely because it is a team item. In terms of damage output, Mjo is insane on alchemist due to the way BAT works.
Also Alchemist gold per minute is absolutely ridiculous. There's no reason to get a vanguard instead of heart. You can pick up a vit booster early on if you want the max health and hold your shield while you farm relatively easily. Finishing the vanguard is just a waste of gold since you'll want to replace it with a heart anyway.
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On October 15 2012 05:18 r.Evo wrote:- Manta first item is bad. On like ANY hardcarry in the game there are better item choices. No farm power at all, no laning strength.
- Radiance first item is probably his strongest opening when you can get to it.
- Mjollnir should be a substitute for Radiance in most cases. It's weaker as a farming item but its build up is much smoother. Also the chainprocs + the active do more damage in most teamfights than e.g. a Battlefury if you want to compare it to other "farmy" items.
- Vanguard is, as explained earlier, a mediocre item to get quickly and just trash to get late in the game. It's not slot efficient at all.
I don't get why you rate manta so lowly it's a really good item,i did not say get manta first also and if all the advantages i said about manta doesn't convince you i've nothing to say to you. Vanguard is still useful late game alchem with manta ac Power treads radiance BoT vanguard has 3.3k hp in ulti form, not sure if he has changed from that long ago. I'm just saying that people sell battle fury, and chain procs don't do THAT much damage as you imagine it to and the active can only proc once a second, and about farming it alchem should be in safe lane with protection with half decent last hitting you would be able to farm it easily, i did not say get manta first also and.
The thing about not getting heart is that you DON'T need heart you have 3.3k health already, Manta is a REALLY good utility item, dodging spells and getting out of spells how many times do your want me to repeat that, 33% damage dealing illusion is still damage. Gives good stats as well. The difference between mjollinr is that you need to hit the support heroes to zone them out where as radiance is AOE.
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On October 15 2012 05:24 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 05:18 r.Evo wrote:- Manta first item is bad. On like ANY hardcarry in the game there are better item choices. No farm power at all, no laning strength.
- Radiance first item is probably his strongest opening when you can get to it.
- Mjollnir should be a substitute for Radiance in most cases. It's weaker as a farming item but its build up is much smoother. Also the chainprocs + the active do more damage in most teamfights than e.g. a Battlefury if you want to compare it to other "farmy" items.
- Vanguard is, as explained earlier, a mediocre item to get quickly and just trash to get late in the game. It's not slot efficient at all.
I don't get why you rate manta so lowly it's a really good item,i did not say get manta first also and if all the advantages i said about manta doesn't convince you i've nothing to say to you. Vanguard is still useful late game alchem with manta ac Power treads radiance BoT vanguard has 3.3k hp in ulti form, not sure if he has changed from that long ago. I'm just saying that people sell battle fury, and chain procs don't do THAT much damage as you imagine it to and the active can only proc once a second, and about farming it alchem should be in safe lane with protection with half decent last hitting you would be able to farm it easily, i did not say get manta first also and. The thing about not getting heart is that you DON'T need heart you have 3.3k health already, Manta is a REALLY good utility item, dodging spells and getting out of spells how many times do your want me to repeat that, 33% damage dealing illusion is still damage. Gives good stats as well. The difference between mjollinr is that you need to hit the support heroes to zone them out where as radiance is AOE.
Because illusions don't get any benefits from +damage or +attackspeed so your 33% damage illusion is actually doing <1% of your damage output. They do benefit from stat items, but only your manta gives stats.
and alchemist is mr. money bags. If vanguard actually had significance in your build like you needed it to early teamfight then you could consider getting it. However, you don't need the health regen from it so you're only saving a slot by combining the vit booster with the shield which isn't required. Heart is better and you aren't gold limited in picking it up. There is no reason to get a vanguard.
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On October 15 2012 05:37 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 05:24 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 05:18 r.Evo wrote:- Manta first item is bad. On like ANY hardcarry in the game there are better item choices. No farm power at all, no laning strength.
- Radiance first item is probably his strongest opening when you can get to it.
- Mjollnir should be a substitute for Radiance in most cases. It's weaker as a farming item but its build up is much smoother. Also the chainprocs + the active do more damage in most teamfights than e.g. a Battlefury if you want to compare it to other "farmy" items.
- Vanguard is, as explained earlier, a mediocre item to get quickly and just trash to get late in the game. It's not slot efficient at all.
I don't get why you rate manta so lowly it's a really good item,i did not say get manta first also and if all the advantages i said about manta doesn't convince you i've nothing to say to you. Vanguard is still useful late game alchem with manta ac Power treads radiance BoT vanguard has 3.3k hp in ulti form, not sure if he has changed from that long ago. I'm just saying that people sell battle fury, and chain procs don't do THAT much damage as you imagine it to and the active can only proc once a second, and about farming it alchem should be in safe lane with protection with half decent last hitting you would be able to farm it easily, i did not say get manta first also and. The thing about not getting heart is that you DON'T need heart you have 3.3k health already, Manta is a REALLY good utility item, dodging spells and getting out of spells how many times do your want me to repeat that, 33% damage dealing illusion is still damage. Gives good stats as well. The difference between mjollinr is that you need to hit the support heroes to zone them out where as radiance is AOE. Because illusions don't get any benefits from +damage or +attackspeed so your 33% damage illusion is actually doing <1% of your damage output. They do benefit from stat items, but only your manta gives stats. and alchemist is mr. money bags. If vanguard actually had significance in your build like you needed it to early teamfight then you could consider getting it. However, you don't need to health regen from it so you're only saving a slot by combining the vit booster with the shield which isn't required. Heart is better and you aren't gold limited in picking it up. There is no reason to get a vanguard.
With radiance, vanguard and manta you can just brute force your way into your enemy's base. Correct me if i'm wrong people rush radiance and follow it up with a vanguard because vanguard helps alchem get so much stronger, after which he becomes mega strong then add manta to it and you get tones of utility.
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Lalalaland34501 Posts
Early mjollnir > early manta any day.
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Guys, this is the same case with Skiyo now. We don't need 5 people debating item choices vs 1 guy, that is why I stopped posting. Let 1 person handle it, I think we are all capable to do so.
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On October 15 2012 05:43 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 05:37 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 15 2012 05:24 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 05:18 r.Evo wrote:- Manta first item is bad. On like ANY hardcarry in the game there are better item choices. No farm power at all, no laning strength.
- Radiance first item is probably his strongest opening when you can get to it.
- Mjollnir should be a substitute for Radiance in most cases. It's weaker as a farming item but its build up is much smoother. Also the chainprocs + the active do more damage in most teamfights than e.g. a Battlefury if you want to compare it to other "farmy" items.
- Vanguard is, as explained earlier, a mediocre item to get quickly and just trash to get late in the game. It's not slot efficient at all.
I don't get why you rate manta so lowly it's a really good item,i did not say get manta first also and if all the advantages i said about manta doesn't convince you i've nothing to say to you. Vanguard is still useful late game alchem with manta ac Power treads radiance BoT vanguard has 3.3k hp in ulti form, not sure if he has changed from that long ago. I'm just saying that people sell battle fury, and chain procs don't do THAT much damage as you imagine it to and the active can only proc once a second, and about farming it alchem should be in safe lane with protection with half decent last hitting you would be able to farm it easily, i did not say get manta first also and. The thing about not getting heart is that you DON'T need heart you have 3.3k health already, Manta is a REALLY good utility item, dodging spells and getting out of spells how many times do your want me to repeat that, 33% damage dealing illusion is still damage. Gives good stats as well. The difference between mjollinr is that you need to hit the support heroes to zone them out where as radiance is AOE. Because illusions don't get any benefits from +damage or +attackspeed so your 33% damage illusion is actually doing <1% of your damage output. They do benefit from stat items, but only your manta gives stats. and alchemist is mr. money bags. If vanguard actually had significance in your build like you needed it to early teamfight then you could consider getting it. However, you don't need to health regen from it so you're only saving a slot by combining the vit booster with the shield which isn't required. Heart is better and you aren't gold limited in picking it up. There is no reason to get a vanguard. With radiance, vanguard and manta you can just brute force your way into your enemy's base. Correct me if i'm wrong people rush radiance and follow it up with a vanguard because vanguard helps alchem get so much stronger, after which he becomes mega strong then add manta to it and you get tones of utility.
Alchemist gets free 800 gpm. You don't need to force base when you vastly outfarm your opponents. It's a lot less risky to win at six items and you're going to get there well before anyone else. The ball is in their court to make something happen, not yours.
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On October 15 2012 05:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 05:43 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 05:37 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 15 2012 05:24 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 05:18 r.Evo wrote:- Manta first item is bad. On like ANY hardcarry in the game there are better item choices. No farm power at all, no laning strength.
- Radiance first item is probably his strongest opening when you can get to it.
- Mjollnir should be a substitute for Radiance in most cases. It's weaker as a farming item but its build up is much smoother. Also the chainprocs + the active do more damage in most teamfights than e.g. a Battlefury if you want to compare it to other "farmy" items.
- Vanguard is, as explained earlier, a mediocre item to get quickly and just trash to get late in the game. It's not slot efficient at all.
I don't get why you rate manta so lowly it's a really good item,i did not say get manta first also and if all the advantages i said about manta doesn't convince you i've nothing to say to you. Vanguard is still useful late game alchem with manta ac Power treads radiance BoT vanguard has 3.3k hp in ulti form, not sure if he has changed from that long ago. I'm just saying that people sell battle fury, and chain procs don't do THAT much damage as you imagine it to and the active can only proc once a second, and about farming it alchem should be in safe lane with protection with half decent last hitting you would be able to farm it easily, i did not say get manta first also and. The thing about not getting heart is that you DON'T need heart you have 3.3k health already, Manta is a REALLY good utility item, dodging spells and getting out of spells how many times do your want me to repeat that, 33% damage dealing illusion is still damage. Gives good stats as well. The difference between mjollinr is that you need to hit the support heroes to zone them out where as radiance is AOE. Because illusions don't get any benefits from +damage or +attackspeed so your 33% damage illusion is actually doing <1% of your damage output. They do benefit from stat items, but only your manta gives stats. and alchemist is mr. money bags. If vanguard actually had significance in your build like you needed it to early teamfight then you could consider getting it. However, you don't need to health regen from it so you're only saving a slot by combining the vit booster with the shield which isn't required. Heart is better and you aren't gold limited in picking it up. There is no reason to get a vanguard. With radiance, vanguard and manta you can just brute force your way into your enemy's base. Correct me if i'm wrong people rush radiance and follow it up with a vanguard because vanguard helps alchem get so much stronger, after which he becomes mega strong then add manta to it and you get tones of utility. Alchemist gets free 800 gpm. You don't need to force base when you vastly outfarm your opponents. It's a lot less risky to win at six items and you're going to get there well before anyone else. The ball is in their court to make something happen, not yours.
I don't know what kind of game you play but either they push and you are required to engage them or they push your towers down and you can't farm or they just simply gang you.
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On October 15 2012 05:54 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 05:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 15 2012 05:43 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 05:37 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 15 2012 05:24 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 05:18 r.Evo wrote:- Manta first item is bad. On like ANY hardcarry in the game there are better item choices. No farm power at all, no laning strength.
- Radiance first item is probably his strongest opening when you can get to it.
- Mjollnir should be a substitute for Radiance in most cases. It's weaker as a farming item but its build up is much smoother. Also the chainprocs + the active do more damage in most teamfights than e.g. a Battlefury if you want to compare it to other "farmy" items.
- Vanguard is, as explained earlier, a mediocre item to get quickly and just trash to get late in the game. It's not slot efficient at all.
I don't get why you rate manta so lowly it's a really good item,i did not say get manta first also and if all the advantages i said about manta doesn't convince you i've nothing to say to you. Vanguard is still useful late game alchem with manta ac Power treads radiance BoT vanguard has 3.3k hp in ulti form, not sure if he has changed from that long ago. I'm just saying that people sell battle fury, and chain procs don't do THAT much damage as you imagine it to and the active can only proc once a second, and about farming it alchem should be in safe lane with protection with half decent last hitting you would be able to farm it easily, i did not say get manta first also and. The thing about not getting heart is that you DON'T need heart you have 3.3k health already, Manta is a REALLY good utility item, dodging spells and getting out of spells how many times do your want me to repeat that, 33% damage dealing illusion is still damage. Gives good stats as well. The difference between mjollinr is that you need to hit the support heroes to zone them out where as radiance is AOE. Because illusions don't get any benefits from +damage or +attackspeed so your 33% damage illusion is actually doing <1% of your damage output. They do benefit from stat items, but only your manta gives stats. and alchemist is mr. money bags. If vanguard actually had significance in your build like you needed it to early teamfight then you could consider getting it. However, you don't need to health regen from it so you're only saving a slot by combining the vit booster with the shield which isn't required. Heart is better and you aren't gold limited in picking it up. There is no reason to get a vanguard. With radiance, vanguard and manta you can just brute force your way into your enemy's base. Correct me if i'm wrong people rush radiance and follow it up with a vanguard because vanguard helps alchem get so much stronger, after which he becomes mega strong then add manta to it and you get tones of utility. Alchemist gets free 800 gpm. You don't need to force base when you vastly outfarm your opponents. It's a lot less risky to win at six items and you're going to get there well before anyone else. The ball is in their court to make something happen, not yours. I don't know what kind of game you play but either they push and you are required to engage them or they push your towers down and you can't farm or they just simply gang you.
a) They fuck around. Alchemist gets fat because he gets more gold out of every creep he kills.
b) They try to push towers, you fight for them once you have some items.
Being ahead should mean mapcontrol and farming space not "trying to brute force their base" when there is no reason to do so.
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On October 15 2012 05:54 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 05:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 15 2012 05:43 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 05:37 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 15 2012 05:24 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 05:18 r.Evo wrote:- Manta first item is bad. On like ANY hardcarry in the game there are better item choices. No farm power at all, no laning strength.
- Radiance first item is probably his strongest opening when you can get to it.
- Mjollnir should be a substitute for Radiance in most cases. It's weaker as a farming item but its build up is much smoother. Also the chainprocs + the active do more damage in most teamfights than e.g. a Battlefury if you want to compare it to other "farmy" items.
- Vanguard is, as explained earlier, a mediocre item to get quickly and just trash to get late in the game. It's not slot efficient at all.
I don't get why you rate manta so lowly it's a really good item,i did not say get manta first also and if all the advantages i said about manta doesn't convince you i've nothing to say to you. Vanguard is still useful late game alchem with manta ac Power treads radiance BoT vanguard has 3.3k hp in ulti form, not sure if he has changed from that long ago. I'm just saying that people sell battle fury, and chain procs don't do THAT much damage as you imagine it to and the active can only proc once a second, and about farming it alchem should be in safe lane with protection with half decent last hitting you would be able to farm it easily, i did not say get manta first also and. The thing about not getting heart is that you DON'T need heart you have 3.3k health already, Manta is a REALLY good utility item, dodging spells and getting out of spells how many times do your want me to repeat that, 33% damage dealing illusion is still damage. Gives good stats as well. The difference between mjollinr is that you need to hit the support heroes to zone them out where as radiance is AOE. Because illusions don't get any benefits from +damage or +attackspeed so your 33% damage illusion is actually doing <1% of your damage output. They do benefit from stat items, but only your manta gives stats. and alchemist is mr. money bags. If vanguard actually had significance in your build like you needed it to early teamfight then you could consider getting it. However, you don't need to health regen from it so you're only saving a slot by combining the vit booster with the shield which isn't required. Heart is better and you aren't gold limited in picking it up. There is no reason to get a vanguard. With radiance, vanguard and manta you can just brute force your way into your enemy's base. Correct me if i'm wrong people rush radiance and follow it up with a vanguard because vanguard helps alchem get so much stronger, after which he becomes mega strong then add manta to it and you get tones of utility. Alchemist gets free 800 gpm. You don't need to force base when you vastly outfarm your opponents. It's a lot less risky to win at six items and you're going to get there well before anyone else. The ball is in their court to make something happen, not yours. I don't know what kind of game you play but either they push and you are required to engage them or they push your towers down and you can't farm or they just simply gang you.
You're talking about brute forcing your way through base which means pushing not defending. Instead of pushing you can just keep farming. Very few things can compete with an alchemist gpm in the current patch so you're just going to get your team even farther ahead.
I've already addressed the alternative in two of my posts, but just so you can read it again. You don't need the health regen from vanguard so unless you need the slot there is no point combining it into a vanguard. Just pick up a vit booster with your shield. The shield block is almost negligible later on so if you really need the slot I'd pawn the shield and wait out for heart regardless.
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On October 15 2012 05:56 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 05:54 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 05:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 15 2012 05:43 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 05:37 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 15 2012 05:24 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 05:18 r.Evo wrote:- Manta first item is bad. On like ANY hardcarry in the game there are better item choices. No farm power at all, no laning strength.
- Radiance first item is probably his strongest opening when you can get to it.
- Mjollnir should be a substitute for Radiance in most cases. It's weaker as a farming item but its build up is much smoother. Also the chainprocs + the active do more damage in most teamfights than e.g. a Battlefury if you want to compare it to other "farmy" items.
- Vanguard is, as explained earlier, a mediocre item to get quickly and just trash to get late in the game. It's not slot efficient at all.
I don't get why you rate manta so lowly it's a really good item,i did not say get manta first also and if all the advantages i said about manta doesn't convince you i've nothing to say to you. Vanguard is still useful late game alchem with manta ac Power treads radiance BoT vanguard has 3.3k hp in ulti form, not sure if he has changed from that long ago. I'm just saying that people sell battle fury, and chain procs don't do THAT much damage as you imagine it to and the active can only proc once a second, and about farming it alchem should be in safe lane with protection with half decent last hitting you would be able to farm it easily, i did not say get manta first also and. The thing about not getting heart is that you DON'T need heart you have 3.3k health already, Manta is a REALLY good utility item, dodging spells and getting out of spells how many times do your want me to repeat that, 33% damage dealing illusion is still damage. Gives good stats as well. The difference between mjollinr is that you need to hit the support heroes to zone them out where as radiance is AOE. Because illusions don't get any benefits from +damage or +attackspeed so your 33% damage illusion is actually doing <1% of your damage output. They do benefit from stat items, but only your manta gives stats. and alchemist is mr. money bags. If vanguard actually had significance in your build like you needed it to early teamfight then you could consider getting it. However, you don't need to health regen from it so you're only saving a slot by combining the vit booster with the shield which isn't required. Heart is better and you aren't gold limited in picking it up. There is no reason to get a vanguard. With radiance, vanguard and manta you can just brute force your way into your enemy's base. Correct me if i'm wrong people rush radiance and follow it up with a vanguard because vanguard helps alchem get so much stronger, after which he becomes mega strong then add manta to it and you get tones of utility. Alchemist gets free 800 gpm. You don't need to force base when you vastly outfarm your opponents. It's a lot less risky to win at six items and you're going to get there well before anyone else. The ball is in their court to make something happen, not yours. I don't know what kind of game you play but either they push and you are required to engage them or they push your towers down and you can't farm or they just simply gang you. a) They fuck around. Alchemist gets fat because he gets more gold out of every creep he kills. b) They try to push towers, you fight for them once you have some items. Being ahead should mean mapcontrol and farming space not "trying to brute force their base" when there is no reason to do so.
If they are gonna let you farm 2-3 items before trying to push or they fuck around then nice mmr you got there. Anyway i can't bother to argue with your. I still stand by my build that manta is important it's a good utility item if you guys don't buy it don't when alchemist gets picked and he gets manta as third or forth item i hope you guys don't suddenly think it's a good item. This build has been done before many times and i have faith in it to work. So whatever if your don't see the benefits of manta style after me telling you all the benefits of it, there's nothing more i can do to put my point across.
And i'm not saying that you have to brute force your way in but as an analogy to show to you how strong alchemist is with a simple radiance and vanguard. If you don't want to get a vanguard then sit on the vit booster all you want. I feel there's no need to go for a heart on alchemist as the second or third and sometimes even forth item. Like i showed your just now alchemist can get to 3.3k hp without heart.
Do people not understand the view that manta style is a utility item? That gives good stats, a nice active ability which if put to good use works wonders.
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United States47024 Posts
Why has this gone on 2 pages...
Yes Alchemist needs Vit Booster. Yes Alchemist needs RoH. But Vanguard is still shitty because Vit Booster + Hood is just better in every way than buying Vanguard (gives more relevant stats for the point in the game where you buy it, more cost-effective, builds into relevant lategame items rather than being a dead-end midgame item). There is zero reason to build Vanguard when you can turn the RoH into Hood, hold the Vit Booster, and then make them both into good lategame items.
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Lalalaland34501 Posts
3rd or 4th item manta, sure.
1st item manta? No.
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On October 15 2012 05:45 Slardar wrote:
Guys, this is the same case with Skiyo now. We don't need 5 people debating item choices vs 1 guy, that is why I stopped posting. Let 1 person handle it, I think we are all capable to do so.
You read my thoughts exactly..
To Paikyo-wannabe: manta gives 10 strength, which is the only +dmg your illusions are getting. As the illusions deal 33% damage, you get an additional 6.67 damage which each attack. Oh, you can attack slightly faster though due to the +26 agil, so I guess that counts for a bit..
And acid spray is awesome at counter-pushing and stopping opponents from forcing fights.
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On October 15 2012 06:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
3rd or 4th item manta, sure.
1st item manta? No.
No one is fucking talking about getting manta first can you fucking read some of the posts?
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On October 15 2012 06:05 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 06:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
3rd or 4th item manta, sure.
1st item manta? No. No one is fucking talking about getting manta first can you fucking read some of the posts?
Read your own posts before you insult people randomly:
Personally my build on alchem would be Power treads/ BoT (late game), Manta, Radiance, AC, Vanguard, One last dmg item like mkb, buriza, bkb if you ever want to or save the slot for aegies.
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On October 15 2012 06:12 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 06:05 KwoM wrote:On October 15 2012 06:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
3rd or 4th item manta, sure.
1st item manta? No. No one is fucking talking about getting manta first can you fucking read some of the posts? Read your own posts before you insult people randomly: Show nested quote +Personally my build on alchem would be Power treads/ BoT (late game), Manta, Radiance, AC, Vanguard, One last dmg item like mkb, buriza, bkb if you ever want to or save the slot for aegies.
I just quoted my build in a random order seriously? Vanguard as a 5th item?
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EPT
