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On October 14 2012 14:06 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 14:04 Nevuk wrote:On October 14 2012 11:05 Dead9 wrote:
if you ignore gold costs
hp*(1+0.06*(armor+5)) = (hp+19*6)*(1+0.06*(armor+3/7))
it's about 425 + 25*armor
so if hp > 425 + 25*armor you're better off buying a chainmail (aka always)
but you're probably better off buying a gem or a million blue wards Team fed 2 gems inside of 25 minutes and it was one of those annoying games where my team picked 4 carries and I picked a support so I wound up being unable to get farm for even boots until quite late. Was mostly just looking for a way to stop clinkz from running up and killing me under a tower and the curious thought crossed my mind as to which would be better when I had about 650 gold from a won teamfight. To do anything I either had to follow the person with the gem around which relied on him having good positioning (it was atrocious - see losing two gems inside of 25 minutes) or leave a trail of blue wards from the tower's range to the ward spots - which I had no way to afford. Trying to farm anything would get me killed and the jungle was mostly taken by the carries. Like there's positioning sure but there's also you having a team that just stands and watches the clinkz kill you and then run off, multiple times. Including tower dives. He didn't start doing it until after his very early orchid or I would have been able to deal with it rather easily, just stun/hex and tp out. If your team just lets clitz kill you over and over again then an item isn't going to help you either.
Pretty much this. Clinkz needs to be shutdown early on or he will pick you off. If you can't shut him down early then you need to 5 man pubtrain through the midgame. Clinkz can't do much against a team of people nor can he deal with pushes, so exploit that.
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On October 14 2012 17:47 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 16:15 Mataza wrote:On October 14 2012 14:04 Nevuk wrote:On October 14 2012 11:05 Dead9 wrote:
if you ignore gold costs
hp*(1+0.06*(armor+5)) = (hp+19*6)*(1+0.06*(armor+3/7))
it's about 425 + 25*armor
so if hp > 425 + 25*armor you're better off buying a chainmail (aka always)
but you're probably better off buying a gem or a million blue wards Team fed 2 gems inside of 25 minutes and it was one of those annoying games where my team picked 4 carries and I picked a support so I wound up being unable to get farm for even boots until quite late. Was mostly just looking for a way to stop clinkz from running up and killing me under a tower and the curious thought crossed my mind as to which would be better when I had about 650 gold from a won teamfight. To do anything I either had to follow the person with the gem around which relied on him having good positioning (it was atrocious - see losing two gems inside of 25 minutes) or leave a trail of blue wards from the tower's range to the ward spots - which I had no way to afford. Trying to farm anything would get me killed and the jungle was mostly taken by the carries. Like there's positioning sure but there's also you having a team that just stands and watches the clinkz kill you and then run off, multiple times. Including tower dives. He didn't start doing it until after his very early orchid or I would have been able to deal with it rather easily, just stun/hex and tp out. The sad part is a significant amount of clinkz damage comes from searing arrows, which deal pure damage and are therefore unaffected by armor. Against orchids you should try to juke if at all possible. Doesn´t help against the "enemy team much better than my team" issue though. Searing Arrows does physical damage, not pure damage. From Clinkz' Playdota page:
My bad. Didn´t it use to be pure damage, back when the numbers were 10/20/30/40?
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On October 14 2012 21:36 cool_slowbro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 14:06 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 14 2012 14:04 Nevuk wrote:On October 14 2012 11:05 Dead9 wrote:
if you ignore gold costs
hp*(1+0.06*(armor+5)) = (hp+19*6)*(1+0.06*(armor+3/7))
it's about 425 + 25*armor
so if hp > 425 + 25*armor you're better off buying a chainmail (aka always)
but you're probably better off buying a gem or a million blue wards Team fed 2 gems inside of 25 minutes and it was one of those annoying games where my team picked 4 carries and I picked a support so I wound up being unable to get farm for even boots until quite late. Was mostly just looking for a way to stop clinkz from running up and killing me under a tower and the curious thought crossed my mind as to which would be better when I had about 650 gold from a won teamfight. To do anything I either had to follow the person with the gem around which relied on him having good positioning (it was atrocious - see losing two gems inside of 25 minutes) or leave a trail of blue wards from the tower's range to the ward spots - which I had no way to afford. Trying to farm anything would get me killed and the jungle was mostly taken by the carries. Like there's positioning sure but there's also you having a team that just stands and watches the clinkz kill you and then run off, multiple times. Including tower dives. He didn't start doing it until after his very early orchid or I would have been able to deal with it rather easily, just stun/hex and tp out. If your team just lets clitz kill you over and over again then an item isn't going to help you either. Pretty much this. Clinkz needs to be shutdown early on or he will pick you off. If you can't shut him down early then you need to 5 man pubtrain through the midgame. Clinkz can't do much against a team of people nor can he deal with pushes, so exploit that.
Not true. Clinkz loves it when the enemy team plays 5 man dota. He gets to push a lane hard and then drop the enemy towers in a matter of minutes. He can beat the enemy team in a race, even, as long as your remaining 4 teammates don't drop like flies.
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On October 14 2012 22:29 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 17:47 TheYango wrote:On October 14 2012 16:15 Mataza wrote:On October 14 2012 14:04 Nevuk wrote:On October 14 2012 11:05 Dead9 wrote:
if you ignore gold costs
hp*(1+0.06*(armor+5)) = (hp+19*6)*(1+0.06*(armor+3/7))
it's about 425 + 25*armor
so if hp > 425 + 25*armor you're better off buying a chainmail (aka always)
but you're probably better off buying a gem or a million blue wards Team fed 2 gems inside of 25 minutes and it was one of those annoying games where my team picked 4 carries and I picked a support so I wound up being unable to get farm for even boots until quite late. Was mostly just looking for a way to stop clinkz from running up and killing me under a tower and the curious thought crossed my mind as to which would be better when I had about 650 gold from a won teamfight. To do anything I either had to follow the person with the gem around which relied on him having good positioning (it was atrocious - see losing two gems inside of 25 minutes) or leave a trail of blue wards from the tower's range to the ward spots - which I had no way to afford. Trying to farm anything would get me killed and the jungle was mostly taken by the carries. Like there's positioning sure but there's also you having a team that just stands and watches the clinkz kill you and then run off, multiple times. Including tower dives. He didn't start doing it until after his very early orchid or I would have been able to deal with it rather easily, just stun/hex and tp out. The sad part is a significant amount of clinkz damage comes from searing arrows, which deal pure damage and are therefore unaffected by armor. Against orchids you should try to juke if at all possible. Doesn´t help against the "enemy team much better than my team" issue though. Searing Arrows does physical damage, not pure damage. From Clinkz' Playdota page: The damage is directly added to Clinkz' attack damage, as physical damage. My bad. Didn´t it use to be pure damage, back when the numbers were 10/20/30/40?
Searing arrows does physical damage. Changing it to do pure damage would be an interesting hack.
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On October 14 2012 11:05 Dead9 wrote:
if you ignore gold costs
hp*(1+0.06*(armor+5)) = (hp+19*6)*(1+0.06*(armor+3/7))
it's about 425 + 25*armor
so if hp > 425 + 25*armor you're better off buying a chainmail (aka always)
but you're probably better off buying a gem or a million blue wards
But you must take into account that amour decreases as it increases and as you level up there's also an increase in your amour so the amour you gain is lesser. And bracer also gives more than just hp it gives mana as well which should be taken into consideration. Generally i'll recommend bracer over chain mail didn't do any math but i feel it's better with the damage and all.
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On October 14 2012 23:44 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 11:05 Dead9 wrote:
if you ignore gold costs
hp*(1+0.06*(armor+5)) = (hp+19*6)*(1+0.06*(armor+3/7))
it's about 425 + 25*armor
so if hp > 425 + 25*armor you're better off buying a chainmail (aka always)
but you're probably better off buying a gem or a million blue wards But you must take into account that amour decreases as it increases and as you level up there's also an increase in your amour so the amour you gain is lesser. And bracer also gives more than just hp it gives mana as well which should be taken into consideration. Generally i'll recommend bracer over chain mail didn't do any math but i feel it's better with the damage and all.
There are no diminishing returns on armor. Don't be fooled by the percentages of damage reduction. Every point gives you six percent effective hitpoints.
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On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 03:44 boxman22 wrote:
I played one game with alchemist today and was surprised by how much gold you can rake in with him now. The buffs to basically everything he does makes him significantly better. Is it best to go radiance with him or some of the other damage items (like mjollnir)? Should you go buriza after that or heart to make you even tankier? The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart.
I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good.
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On October 14 2012 23:48 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 23:44 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 11:05 Dead9 wrote:
if you ignore gold costs
hp*(1+0.06*(armor+5)) = (hp+19*6)*(1+0.06*(armor+3/7))
it's about 425 + 25*armor
so if hp > 425 + 25*armor you're better off buying a chainmail (aka always)
but you're probably better off buying a gem or a million blue wards But you must take into account that amour decreases as it increases and as you level up there's also an increase in your amour so the amour you gain is lesser. And bracer also gives more than just hp it gives mana as well which should be taken into consideration. Generally i'll recommend bracer over chain mail didn't do any math but i feel it's better with the damage and all. There are no diminishing returns on armor. Don't be fooled by the percentages of damage reduction. Every point gives you six percent effective hitpoints.
I'm quite sure it does... http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Armor
Armor Damage reduction (%) Armor Damage amplification (%)
1 5.7 -1 6.0
2 10.7 -2 11.6
3 15.3 -3 16.9
4 19.4 -4 21.9
5 23.1 -5 26.6
6 26.5 -6 31.0
7 29.6 -7 35.2
8 32.4 -8 39.0
9 35.1 -9 42.7
10 37.5 -10 46.1
11 39.8 -11 49.4
12 41.9 -12 52.4
13 43.8 -13 55.3
14 45.7 -14 57.9
15 47.4 -15 60.5
16 49.0 -16 62.8
17 50.5 -17 65.1
18 51.9 -18 67.2
19 53.3 -19 69.1
20 54.5 -20 71.0
21 55.8 -21 72.7
22 56.9 -22 74.4
23 58.0 -23 75.9
24 59.0 -24 77.3
25 60.0 -25 78.7
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On October 14 2012 23:55 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 23:48 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 14 2012 23:44 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 11:05 Dead9 wrote:
if you ignore gold costs
hp*(1+0.06*(armor+5)) = (hp+19*6)*(1+0.06*(armor+3/7))
it's about 425 + 25*armor
so if hp > 425 + 25*armor you're better off buying a chainmail (aka always)
but you're probably better off buying a gem or a million blue wards But you must take into account that amour decreases as it increases and as you level up there's also an increase in your amour so the amour you gain is lesser. And bracer also gives more than just hp it gives mana as well which should be taken into consideration. Generally i'll recommend bracer over chain mail didn't do any math but i feel it's better with the damage and all. There are no diminishing returns on armor. Don't be fooled by the percentages of damage reduction. Every point gives you six percent effective hitpoints. I'm quite sure it does... http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Armor Armor Damage reduction (%) Armor Damage amplification (%) a lot of numbers here
I think you should continue to read the rest of the wiki you linked..
Armor Stacking
Armor value stacks with multiple instances of Items and Abilities. Every point of Armor requires a Hero to take 6% more of their maximum hit points in damage to kill. This is called "Effective Hit Points", or EHP. A Hero with 10 Armor has 60% of their maximum hit points as EHP, meaning that if a Hero had 1000 hit points, it would take 1600 points of physical damage to kill them. If that Hero had 20 Armor, he or she would take 2200 points of physical damage to kill, doubling their protection.
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On October 14 2012 23:55 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 23:48 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 14 2012 23:44 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 11:05 Dead9 wrote:
if you ignore gold costs
hp*(1+0.06*(armor+5)) = (hp+19*6)*(1+0.06*(armor+3/7))
it's about 425 + 25*armor
so if hp > 425 + 25*armor you're better off buying a chainmail (aka always)
but you're probably better off buying a gem or a million blue wards But you must take into account that amour decreases as it increases and as you level up there's also an increase in your amour so the amour you gain is lesser. And bracer also gives more than just hp it gives mana as well which should be taken into consideration. Generally i'll recommend bracer over chain mail didn't do any math but i feel it's better with the damage and all. There are no diminishing returns on armor. Don't be fooled by the percentages of damage reduction. Every point gives you six percent effective hitpoints. + Show Spoiler +I'm quite sure it does... http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Armor Armor Damage reduction (%) Armor Damage amplification (%) 1 5.7 -1 6.0 2 10.7 -2 11.6 3 15.3 -3 16.9 4 19.4 -4 21.9 5 23.1 -5 26.6 6 26.5 -6 31.0 7 29.6 -7 35.2 8 32.4 -8 39.0 9 35.1 -9 42.7 10 37.5 -10 46.1 11 39.8 -11 49.4 12 41.9 -12 52.4 13 43.8 -13 55.3 14 45.7 -14 57.9 15 47.4 -15 60.5 16 49.0 -16 62.8 17 50.5 -17 65.1 18 51.9 -18 67.2 19 53.3 -19 69.1 20 54.5 -20 71.0 21 55.8 -21 72.7 22 56.9 -22 74.4 23 58.0 -23 75.9 24 59.0 -24 77.3 25 60.0 -25 78.7
You're fooled by percentages. Very common misconception about armor. Consider the difference between going from 0% to 1% damage reduction and 99% to 100%. The latter makes you immune to damage while the former barely helps you at all. If the percentages went up in the linear manner then you'd actually be getting exponential gains from armor rather than linear.
To piggyback off when Heh said. There is a reason people use the effective hitpoints formula instead of damage reduction.
damage reduction(%) = ((armor)*0.06)/(1+0.06*(armor))
EffectiveHP = 1.06*armor*hp
The latter is far easier to think about and gives a number that is very easy to extrapolate meaningful results from. The former gives the percentage reduction which just confuses people.
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On October 15 2012 00:09 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 23:55 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 23:48 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 14 2012 23:44 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 11:05 Dead9 wrote:
if you ignore gold costs
hp*(1+0.06*(armor+5)) = (hp+19*6)*(1+0.06*(armor+3/7))
it's about 425 + 25*armor
so if hp > 425 + 25*armor you're better off buying a chainmail (aka always)
but you're probably better off buying a gem or a million blue wards But you must take into account that amour decreases as it increases and as you level up there's also an increase in your amour so the amour you gain is lesser. And bracer also gives more than just hp it gives mana as well which should be taken into consideration. Generally i'll recommend bracer over chain mail didn't do any math but i feel it's better with the damage and all. There are no diminishing returns on armor. Don't be fooled by the percentages of damage reduction. Every point gives you six percent effective hitpoints. + Show Spoiler +I'm quite sure it does... http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Armor Armor Damage reduction (%) Armor Damage amplification (%) 1 5.7 -1 6.0 2 10.7 -2 11.6 3 15.3 -3 16.9 4 19.4 -4 21.9 5 23.1 -5 26.6 6 26.5 -6 31.0 7 29.6 -7 35.2 8 32.4 -8 39.0 9 35.1 -9 42.7 10 37.5 -10 46.1 11 39.8 -11 49.4 12 41.9 -12 52.4 13 43.8 -13 55.3 14 45.7 -14 57.9 15 47.4 -15 60.5 16 49.0 -16 62.8 17 50.5 -17 65.1 18 51.9 -18 67.2 19 53.3 -19 69.1 20 54.5 -20 71.0 21 55.8 -21 72.7 22 56.9 -22 74.4 23 58.0 -23 75.9 24 59.0 -24 77.3 25 60.0 -25 78.7 You're fooled by percentages. Very common misconception about armor. Consider the difference between going from 0% to 1% damage reduction and 99% to 100%. The latter makes you immune to damage while the former barely helps you at all. If the percentages went up in the linear manner then you'd actually be getting exponential gains from armor rather than linear. To piggyback off when Heh said. There is a reason people use the effective hitpoints formula instead of damage reduction. damage reduction(%) = ((armor)*0.06)/(1+0.06*(armor)) EffectiveHP = 1.06*armor*hp The latter is far easier to think about and gives a number that is very easy to extrapolate meaningful results from. The former gives the percentage reduction which just confuses people.
My bad wasn't paying much attention to the article, back to the point i think bracer is better as a whole give stats, dmg and mana. :D
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If void pops a healing salve and gets hit by an auto attack but dodges it with backtrack, would he still lose the salve because of how backtrack works as a heal instead of actual evasion?
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On October 14 2012 23:48 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 14 2012 03:44 boxman22 wrote:
I played one game with alchemist today and was surprised by how much gold you can rake in with him now. The buffs to basically everything he does makes him significantly better. Is it best to go radiance with him or some of the other damage items (like mjollnir)? Should you go buriza after that or heart to make you even tankier? The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart. I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good.
Vanguard is just an awkward item in general. IF...
- ...you want the vit booster for buffer anyway (most of the time on most melee hardcarries)
- ...you need the RoH for laning anyway (usually in those situations Tranquils are a great option or, on Alchemist, if he can hit level 6 comfortably he's fine without either),
- ...you can't make use of Battlefury/Linkens
- ...you are melee
- ...you want to participate quickly in fights...
...Vanguard is a good option.
Let's check through that list for Alchemist. BF/Linkens are no options, there are certain situations where you could say that a quick RoH would be great but you usually have no reason to participate in teamfights right after your first 1-2 medium items. In general, whenever you can get away without building a Vanguard you should aim to not build it.
Considering that Alchemist is a Str carry he gets less out of a Manta than Agi carries in terms of damage. IF he gets kited in fights that little bit of additional movespeed won't change it and a BKB would be much better in those situations. Mjollnir is great because it gives you damage, attackspeed and additional pushing power outside of your Radiance (if you got one) and Acid Spray.
Edit: As others pointed out I think AC/BKB > Heart for him as "defensive items" in most situations, simply because the threat of being bursted down is much smaller for him compared to other melee hardcarries due to his ultimate.
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On October 15 2012 00:17 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 00:09 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 14 2012 23:55 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 23:48 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 14 2012 23:44 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 11:05 Dead9 wrote:
if you ignore gold costs
hp*(1+0.06*(armor+5)) = (hp+19*6)*(1+0.06*(armor+3/7))
it's about 425 + 25*armor
so if hp > 425 + 25*armor you're better off buying a chainmail (aka always)
but you're probably better off buying a gem or a million blue wards But you must take into account that amour decreases as it increases and as you level up there's also an increase in your amour so the amour you gain is lesser. And bracer also gives more than just hp it gives mana as well which should be taken into consideration. Generally i'll recommend bracer over chain mail didn't do any math but i feel it's better with the damage and all. There are no diminishing returns on armor. Don't be fooled by the percentages of damage reduction. Every point gives you six percent effective hitpoints. + Show Spoiler +I'm quite sure it does... http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Armor Armor Damage reduction (%) Armor Damage amplification (%) 1 5.7 -1 6.0 2 10.7 -2 11.6 3 15.3 -3 16.9 4 19.4 -4 21.9 5 23.1 -5 26.6 6 26.5 -6 31.0 7 29.6 -7 35.2 8 32.4 -8 39.0 9 35.1 -9 42.7 10 37.5 -10 46.1 11 39.8 -11 49.4 12 41.9 -12 52.4 13 43.8 -13 55.3 14 45.7 -14 57.9 15 47.4 -15 60.5 16 49.0 -16 62.8 17 50.5 -17 65.1 18 51.9 -18 67.2 19 53.3 -19 69.1 20 54.5 -20 71.0 21 55.8 -21 72.7 22 56.9 -22 74.4 23 58.0 -23 75.9 24 59.0 -24 77.3 25 60.0 -25 78.7 You're fooled by percentages. Very common misconception about armor. Consider the difference between going from 0% to 1% damage reduction and 99% to 100%. The latter makes you immune to damage while the former barely helps you at all. If the percentages went up in the linear manner then you'd actually be getting exponential gains from armor rather than linear. To piggyback off when Heh said. There is a reason people use the effective hitpoints formula instead of damage reduction. damage reduction(%) = ((armor)*0.06)/(1+0.06*(armor)) EffectiveHP = 1.06*armor*hp The latter is far easier to think about and gives a number that is very easy to extrapolate meaningful results from. The former gives the percentage reduction which just confuses people. My bad wasn't paying much attention to the article, back to the point i think bracer is better as a whole give stats, dmg and mana. :D
Not particular for you, but related to armor-question.
Every 16 armor you get roughly increases your EHP by your 100%(linearly).
1000 hp 16 armor is roughly 2000 EHP. 32 armor is roughly 3000k EHP.
There´s actually no argument; bracers are better. They give stats to all, +3 damage and are cheaper. (Since magical and pure damage are present in most games HP > Armor anyway)
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On October 15 2012 01:19 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 23:48 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 14 2012 03:44 boxman22 wrote:
I played one game with alchemist today and was surprised by how much gold you can rake in with him now. The buffs to basically everything he does makes him significantly better. Is it best to go radiance with him or some of the other damage items (like mjollnir)? Should you go buriza after that or heart to make you even tankier? The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart. I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good. Vanguard is just an awkward item in general. IF... - ...you want the vit booster for buffer anyway (most of the time on most melee hardcarries)
- ...you need the RoH for laning anyway (usually in those situations Tranquils are a great option or, on Alchemist, if he can hit level 6 comfortably he's fine without either),
- ...you can't make use of Battlefury/Linkens
- ...you are melee
- ...you want to participate quickly in fights...
...Vanguard is a good option. Let's check through that list for Alchemist. BF/Linkens are no options, there are certain situations where you could say that a quick RoH would be great but you usually have no reason to participate in teamfights right after your first 1-2 medium items. In general, whenever you can get away without building a Vanguard you should aim to not build it. Considering that Alchemist is a Str carry he gets less out of a Manta than Agi carries in terms of damage. IF he gets kited in fights that little bit of additional movespeed won't change it and a BKB would be much better in those situations. Mjollnir is great because it gives you damage, attackspeed and additional pushing power outside of your Radiance (if you got one) and Acid Spray. Edit: As others pointed out I think AC/BKB > Heart for him as "defensive items" in most situations, simply because the threat of being bursted down is much smaller for him compared to other melee hardcarries due to his ultimate.
Mjollnir is just a stupid item no use in team fights, i don't see bkb being too great on him i think he'd be able to survive naturally, AC is good i still stand by saying manta is good there's so much you gain from it, debuff things, illusions, AS and MS bonus. And probably santanic after a damage item not too sure about him though haven't touched him in ages.
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On October 15 2012 01:48 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 01:19 r.Evo wrote:On October 14 2012 23:48 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 14 2012 03:44 boxman22 wrote:
I played one game with alchemist today and was surprised by how much gold you can rake in with him now. The buffs to basically everything he does makes him significantly better. Is it best to go radiance with him or some of the other damage items (like mjollnir)? Should you go buriza after that or heart to make you even tankier? The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart. I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good. Vanguard is just an awkward item in general. IF... - ...you want the vit booster for buffer anyway (most of the time on most melee hardcarries)
- ...you need the RoH for laning anyway (usually in those situations Tranquils are a great option or, on Alchemist, if he can hit level 6 comfortably he's fine without either),
- ...you can't make use of Battlefury/Linkens
- ...you are melee
- ...you want to participate quickly in fights...
...Vanguard is a good option. Let's check through that list for Alchemist. BF/Linkens are no options, there are certain situations where you could say that a quick RoH would be great but you usually have no reason to participate in teamfights right after your first 1-2 medium items. In general, whenever you can get away without building a Vanguard you should aim to not build it. Considering that Alchemist is a Str carry he gets less out of a Manta than Agi carries in terms of damage. IF he gets kited in fights that little bit of additional movespeed won't change it and a BKB would be much better in those situations. Mjollnir is great because it gives you damage, attackspeed and additional pushing power outside of your Radiance (if you got one) and Acid Spray. Edit: As others pointed out I think AC/BKB > Heart for him as "defensive items" in most situations, simply because the threat of being bursted down is much smaller for him compared to other melee hardcarries due to his ultimate. Mjollnir is just a stupid item no use in team fights, i don't see bkb being too great on him i think he'd be able to survive naturally, AC is good i still stand by saying manta is good there's so much you gain from it, debuff things, illusions, AS and MS bonus. And probably santanic after a damage item not too sure about him though haven't touched him in ages.
Manta on Alchemist? He already has way above average MS and AS, what's the point in increasing it even more? You would get much better dps output on so many other items. Mjollnir synchronizes with his really fast AS + it does some form of AoE, so it has a bit of use in teamfights. Not as good as Radi but still.
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On October 15 2012 01:02 PassiveAce wrote:
If void pops a healing salve and gets hit by an auto attack but dodges it with backtrack, would he still lose the salve because of how backtrack works as a heal instead of actual evasion?
He would in war3 dota because of the psedo-evasion. I know it's coded differently in dota2, but I'm fairly sure it would stay the same (he loses the salve).
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On October 15 2012 01:48 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 01:19 r.Evo wrote:On October 14 2012 23:48 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 14 2012 03:44 boxman22 wrote:
I played one game with alchemist today and was surprised by how much gold you can rake in with him now. The buffs to basically everything he does makes him significantly better. Is it best to go radiance with him or some of the other damage items (like mjollnir)? Should you go buriza after that or heart to make you even tankier? The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart. I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good. Vanguard is just an awkward item in general. IF... - ...you want the vit booster for buffer anyway (most of the time on most melee hardcarries)
- ...you need the RoH for laning anyway (usually in those situations Tranquils are a great option or, on Alchemist, if he can hit level 6 comfortably he's fine without either),
- ...you can't make use of Battlefury/Linkens
- ...you are melee
- ...you want to participate quickly in fights...
...Vanguard is a good option. Let's check through that list for Alchemist. BF/Linkens are no options, there are certain situations where you could say that a quick RoH would be great but you usually have no reason to participate in teamfights right after your first 1-2 medium items. In general, whenever you can get away without building a Vanguard you should aim to not build it. Considering that Alchemist is a Str carry he gets less out of a Manta than Agi carries in terms of damage. IF he gets kited in fights that little bit of additional movespeed won't change it and a BKB would be much better in those situations. Mjollnir is great because it gives you damage, attackspeed and additional pushing power outside of your Radiance (if you got one) and Acid Spray. Edit: As others pointed out I think AC/BKB > Heart for him as "defensive items" in most situations, simply because the threat of being bursted down is much smaller for him compared to other melee hardcarries due to his ultimate. Mjollnir is just a stupid item no use in team fights, i don't see bkb being too great on him i think he'd be able to survive naturally, AC is good i still stand by saying manta is good there's so much you gain from it, debuff things, illusions, AS and MS bonus. And probably santanic after a damage item not too sure about him though haven't touched him in ages.
Bkb is mandatory on any hero that requires to hit to be useful. So yeah it's great on him as is mjollnir. But mjollnir is a remplacement for radiance.
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A bkb isn't needed early on but if you haven't gotten one by the time your opponents first start picking up scythes or even just a few euls then you'll be flat out ignored.
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On October 15 2012 01:48 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 01:19 r.Evo wrote:On October 14 2012 23:48 KwoM wrote:On October 14 2012 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 14 2012 03:44 boxman22 wrote:
I played one game with alchemist today and was surprised by how much gold you can rake in with him now. The buffs to basically everything he does makes him significantly better. Is it best to go radiance with him or some of the other damage items (like mjollnir)? Should you go buriza after that or heart to make you even tankier? The answer for your question is situational from game to game. If you can farm up a quick radiance and your team can hold out 4v5 until you do so, then go ahead. If you need more damage with push, go mjollnir. If you need more direct damage, go daedalus. If you need true hit, get mkb. If the opponents have lots of disables, go bkb. If they have a lot of physical damage, go AC. If you need more HP overall, get heart. I'm not sure about this but i do see alot of pros going vanguard on his even though they can go heart, not sure what's the reason behind that but i do feel that vanguard is enough survivability for an alchemist not sure after the new patch though, i think manta is a good choice as compared to buriza and mjollnir, honestly i think mjollnir is a pretty bad item, main problem of alchemist is there he always get kited so the increased ms from manta is pretty useful and you can debuff. Manta is almost always pretty good. Vanguard is just an awkward item in general. IF... - ...you want the vit booster for buffer anyway (most of the time on most melee hardcarries)
- ...you need the RoH for laning anyway (usually in those situations Tranquils are a great option or, on Alchemist, if he can hit level 6 comfortably he's fine without either),
- ...you can't make use of Battlefury/Linkens
- ...you are melee
- ...you want to participate quickly in fights...
...Vanguard is a good option. Let's check through that list for Alchemist. BF/Linkens are no options, there are certain situations where you could say that a quick RoH would be great but you usually have no reason to participate in teamfights right after your first 1-2 medium items. In general, whenever you can get away without building a Vanguard you should aim to not build it. Considering that Alchemist is a Str carry he gets less out of a Manta than Agi carries in terms of damage. IF he gets kited in fights that little bit of additional movespeed won't change it and a BKB would be much better in those situations. Mjollnir is great because it gives you damage, attackspeed and additional pushing power outside of your Radiance (if you got one) and Acid Spray. Edit: As others pointed out I think AC/BKB > Heart for him as "defensive items" in most situations, simply because the threat of being bursted down is much smaller for him compared to other melee hardcarries due to his ultimate. Mjollnir is just a stupid item no use in team fights, i don't see bkb being too great on him i think he'd be able to survive naturally, AC is good i still stand by saying manta is good there's so much you gain from it, debuff things, illusions, AS and MS bonus. And probably santanic after a damage item not too sure about him though haven't touched him in ages.
If you suggest Manta because the movespeed lets you get kited less then BKB is always a better suggestion. THAT item does not let you get kited but the movespeed should be no reasoning to get it. Satanic is nice.
Why is Mjollnir a stupid item? A reasoning would be nice.
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EPT
