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United States47024 Posts
On May 12 2012 03:51 paschl wrote:
When you play storm how much of pull do you need to skill to pull an enemy into the remnant? I know i heard smoeone say it before but i cant remember.
And how do you generally build storm if youre mid? (item/skillwise)
3 points in Vortex.
Typical build is Remnant->1-2 Overload (1 is typical, 2 is stronger for certain lane matchups)->3 Vortex->max Remnant->max Vortex->max Overload, with Ult at 6/11/16.
Item development varies a lot. Orchid, Sheep, BKB, Bloodstone, and Linken's are all justifiable as major core items depending on the game.
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On May 12 2012 03:51 paschl wrote:
When you play storm how much of pull do you need to skill to pull an enemy into the remnant? I know i heard smoeone say it before but i cant remember.
And how do you generally build storm if youre mid? (item/skillwise)
Oh and i never really got the hang of how you have to roll on someone to do damage, do you have to roll through them or is it just a small aoe where you end your roll?
Small AOE where you land. Very small.
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On May 12 2012 04:26 Zlasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 03:51 paschl wrote:
When you play storm how much of pull do you need to skill to pull an enemy into the remnant? I know i heard smoeone say it before but i cant remember.
And how do you generally build storm if youre mid? (item/skillwise)
Oh and i never really got the hang of how you have to roll on someone to do damage, do you have to roll through them or is it just a small aoe where you end your roll? Small AOE where you land. Very small.
No. It deals dmg if you roll through something.
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On May 12 2012 03:53 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 03:51 paschl wrote:
When you play storm how much of pull do you need to skill to pull an enemy into the remnant? I know i heard smoeone say it before but i cant remember.
And how do you generally build storm if youre mid? (item/skillwise) 3 points in Vortex. Typical build is Remnant->1-2 Overload (1 is typical, 2 is stronger for certain lane matchups)->3 Vortex->max Remnant->max Vortex->max Overload, with Ult at 6/11/16. Item development varies a lot. Orchid, Sheep, BKB, Bloodstone, and Linken's are all justifiable as major core items depending on the game.
What? You mean 6 perserverance isn't a legit build?
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
What no mathematics tells me maxing Overload is better.
Storm Spirit - Remnant vs Overload discussion
+ Show Spoiler +Preface: There was some debate a while ago discussing Storm Spirit builds and comparing damage outputs. In both builds, 1/3/1/1 is taken first, but then the question comes down to maxing Remnant (Q skill) or Overload (E passive) first. I will attempt to mathematicize this for "optimal" Storm Spirit play.
Levels in question will be 7, 8, and 9 since those are the critical levels in which you max either Remnant or Overload. Really though, we only need look at level 7 in order to extrapolate the conclusion to 8 and 9.
Remnant: 140/180/220/260 damage, 4s cooldown
70/80/90/100 mana cost
Per level gain: +40 magic damage
Overload: 30/50/70/90 damage (passive
Per level gain: +20 magic damage
Ball lightning level 1:
8 damage for 100 units at 1250 units/second movespeed
Initial mana cost: 15 + 7% total mana pool
Mana cost per 100 units traveled: 10 + 1% total mana pool
First, let's look at an "average" Storm at level 6. It doesn't really matter but let's say he has Bottle, boots, Wand, one branch and a Null Talisman.
Storm Spirit's relevant statistics:
Physical hit damage: 50 + 13 + 3 + 9 + 1 = 76
Intelligence: 46
Mana pool: 598 (round to 600)
Attack speed doesn't really matter since you're not really auto-attacking anyway. We will look at an "insta-gib" Storm play.
Standard opening: zip, attack, pull, attack, remnant, attack
Follow up by zip, attack, remnant, attack if needed
Will only be focusing on magic damage output since physical hit damage stays constant
Say Storm zips in from 800 units away
Damage from zip: 8*8 = 64
Manacost from zip: 15+42 (initial) + 8(10+6) = 57+128 = 185
Damage from overload hit: 30
Pull
Damage from overload hit: 30
Damage from Remnant: 140
Manacost from Remnant: 70
Damage from overload hit: 30
So at this point, Storm has 600 - 185 - 70 = 345 mana remaining
Storm has done 294 magic damage
===
At Level 7, Storm's mana pool and intelligence increases by 33.8 and 2.6 respectively, but to keep it not-so-complicated I'll continue to use 600 as the mana pool max since items are variable anyway.
LEVEL 7 REMNANT LVL 2
Say Storm zips in from 800 units away
Damage from zip: 8*8 = 64
Manacost from zip: 15+42 (initial) + 8(10+6) = 57+128 = 185
Damage from overload hit: 30
Pull
Damage from overload hit: 30
Damage from Remnant: 180
Manacost from Remnant: 80
Damage from overload hit: 30
So at this point, Storm has 600 - 185 - 80 = 335 mana remaining
Storm has done 334 magic damage
LEVEL 7 OVERLOAD LVL 2
Say Storm zips in from 800 units away
Damage from zip: 8*8 = 64
Manacost from zip: 15+42 (initial) + 8(10+6) = 57+128 = 185
Damage from overload hit: 50
Pull
Damage from overload hit: 50
Damage from Remnant: 140
Manacost from Remnant: 70
Damage from overload hit: 50
So at this point, Storm has 600 - 185 - 70 = 345 mana remaining
Storm has done 354 magic damage
Now as you can see, Overload does more damage since you get in three attacks (after zip, pull, remnant), which results in an additional 20*3=60 damage from level 2 Overload and only 40 damage from level 2 Remnant.
Of course, it's not that simple. While oftentimes coordinated Storm players will have teammates there to add on additional damage, sometimes the 354*.75 + 76*3*(1-armour reduction) in overall damage isn't enough if you are alone.
So it comes down to what happens after the opening ZHPHRH (zip, hit, pull, hit, remnant, hit) combo. We shall compare level 2 overload to level 2 remnant in terms of "remaining killing power". First, we will assume Storm uses a "long zip" as opposed to using multiple micro zips. Say Storm is zipping a distance of 300 units. Because of Overload purge a second Remnant is easy to land.
OVERLOAD LEVEL 2
Storm has 345/600 mana remaining
Storm has done 354 magic damage
Combo: zip, hit, remnant (should have cooled down by now), hit
Damage from zip: 8*3 = 24
Manacost from zip: 15+42 + 3*16 = 105
Damage from Overload hit: 50
Damage from Remnant: 140
Manacost from Remnant: 70
Damage from Overload hit: 50
So in this second combo, Storm has 345 - 105 - 70 = 170 mana left
Storm has dealt an additional 264 damage. Total damage dealt: 354+264 = 618
REMNANT LEVEL 2
Storm has 335/600 mana remaining
Storm has done 334 magic damage
Damage from zip: 8*3 = 24
Manacost from zip: 15+42 + 3*16 = 105
Damage from Overload hit: 30
Damage from Remnant: 180
Manacost from Remnant: 80
Damage from Overload hit: 30
With level 2 Remnant, Storm deals the same additional 264 damage as he would have with Overload level 2 instead of Remnant 2, but it costs 10 mana more. Storm will be left with 150 mana and will have dealt 334+264 = 598 damage.
With "longer" zip jumps, level 2 remnant deals 20 less (magic) damage than level 2 overload after two combos and costs 20 mana more.
This mana cost discrepancy increases when comparing 1/3/3/1 and 3/3/1/1: additional damage total remains at +20 in favor of leveling Overload, but mana cost difference increases by 20 more again.
===
Let's say Storm is now being played by somebody like PIS. PIS utilizes micro zip jumps to maximize Overload damage. So instead of second combo being ZHRH PIS is more likely to use ZHZH or even ZHZHZH (later on). It goes without saying that by utilizing micro jumps, you get in more Overload damage. But at what cost to mana?
ZHZH requires two zips. So instead of zipping 300, let's say Storm zips 200 and then 100.
OVERLOAD 2
Zip 1 damage: 8*2 = 16
Overload damage: 50
Zip 2 damage: 8*1 = 8
Overload damage: 50
Zip 1 manacost: 15+42 + 2*16 = 89
Zip 2 manacost: 15+42 + 16 = 73
Zip total manacost: 162
Damage from ZHZH combo: 124
Storm has 345-162 = 183 mana left
At this point you can then move into ZHRH combo. Let's say Storm zips for 200 units again.
Zip 3 damage: 8*2 = 16
Overload damage: 50
Remnant damage: 140
Overload damage: 50
Total damage: 256
Zip 3 manacost: 15+42+32 = 89
Remnant manacost: 70
Total mana needed: 89 + 70 = 159
At this rate, Storm is effectively out of mana since he'll have 183-159 = 24 mana left.
So for 576 mana, Storm (Overload 2) has dealt...
ZHPHRH + ZHZH + ZHRH
354 + 124 + 256 = 734 magic damage.
Wow that's a lot assuming I'm not completely bonkers right now (and I've been up all night so that's a possibility).
===
Now let's look at ZHPHRH + ZHZH + ZHRH combo with Level 2 Remnant instead of Level 2 Overload
We already calculated ZHPHRH as:
Storm has 335/600 mana remaining
Storm has done 334 magic damage
ZHZH
Zip 1 damage: 8*2 = 16
Overload damage: 30
Zip 2 damage: 8*1 = 8
Overload damage: 30
Zip 1 manacost: 15+42 + 2*16 = 89
Zip 2 manacost: 15+42 + 16 = 73
Zip total manacost: 162
Damage from ZHZH combo: 84
Storm has 335-162 = 173 mana left
ZHRH
Zip 3 damage: 8*2 = 16
Overload damage: 30
Remnant damage: 180
Overload damage: 30
Total damage: 256
Zip 3 manacost: 15+42+32 = 89
Remnant manacost: 80
Total mana needed: 89 + 80 = 169
Storm is now out of mana pretty much. If you pulled this off perfectly, you'd be left with 4 mana (in reality more but remember I rounded down to 600).
So for 596 mana, Storm (Remnant 2) has dealt:
334 + 84 + 256 = 674 magic damage.
===
In conclusion:
Using both long jumps and micro jumps it is more cost-efficient to max out Overload instead of Remnant. You do [slightly] more damage for [slightly] less mana. Of course, DotA is a game of compounding [slight] advantages.
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On May 12 2012 11:39 flamewheel wrote:What no mathematics tells me maxing Overload is better. Storm Spirit - Remnant vs Overload discussion + Show Spoiler +Preface: There was some debate a while ago discussing Storm Spirit builds and comparing damage outputs. In both builds, 1/3/1/1 is taken first, but then the question comes down to maxing Remnant (Q skill) or Overload (E passive) first. I will attempt to mathematicize this for "optimal" Storm Spirit play.
Levels in question will be 7, 8, and 9 since those are the critical levels in which you max either Remnant or Overload. Really though, we only need look at level 7 in order to extrapolate the conclusion to 8 and 9.
Remnant: 140/180/220/260 damage, 4s cooldown
70/80/90/100 mana cost
Per level gain: +40 magic damage
Overload: 30/50/70/90 damage (passive
Per level gain: +20 magic damage
Ball lightning level 1:
8 damage for 100 units at 1250 units/second movespeed
Initial mana cost: 15 + 7% total mana pool
Mana cost per 100 units traveled: 10 + 1% total mana pool
First, let's look at an "average" Storm at level 6. It doesn't really matter but let's say he has Bottle, boots, Wand, one branch and a Null Talisman.
Storm Spirit's relevant statistics:
Physical hit damage: 50 + 13 + 3 + 9 + 1 = 76
Intelligence: 46
Mana pool: 598 (round to 600)
Attack speed doesn't really matter since you're not really auto-attacking anyway. We will look at an "insta-gib" Storm play.
Standard opening: zip, attack, pull, attack, remnant, attack
Follow up by zip, attack, remnant, attack if needed
Will only be focusing on magic damage output since physical hit damage stays constant
Say Storm zips in from 800 units away
Damage from zip: 8*8 = 64
Manacost from zip: 15+42 (initial) + 8(10+6) = 57+128 = 185
Damage from overload hit: 30
Pull
Damage from overload hit: 30
Damage from Remnant: 140
Manacost from Remnant: 70
Damage from overload hit: 30
So at this point, Storm has 600 - 185 - 70 = 345 mana remaining
Storm has done 294 magic damage
===
At Level 7, Storm's mana pool and intelligence increases by 33.8 and 2.6 respectively, but to keep it not-so-complicated I'll continue to use 600 as the mana pool max since items are variable anyway.
LEVEL 7 REMNANT LVL 2
Say Storm zips in from 800 units away
Damage from zip: 8*8 = 64
Manacost from zip: 15+42 (initial) + 8(10+6) = 57+128 = 185
Damage from overload hit: 30
Pull
Damage from overload hit: 30
Damage from Remnant: 180
Manacost from Remnant: 80
Damage from overload hit: 30
So at this point, Storm has 600 - 185 - 80 = 335 mana remaining
Storm has done 334 magic damage
LEVEL 7 OVERLOAD LVL 2
Say Storm zips in from 800 units away
Damage from zip: 8*8 = 64
Manacost from zip: 15+42 (initial) + 8(10+6) = 57+128 = 185
Damage from overload hit: 50
Pull
Damage from overload hit: 50
Damage from Remnant: 140
Manacost from Remnant: 70
Damage from overload hit: 50
So at this point, Storm has 600 - 185 - 70 = 345 mana remaining
Storm has done 354 magic damage
Now as you can see, Overload does more damage since you get in three attacks (after zip, pull, remnant), which results in an additional 20*3=60 damage from level 2 Overload and only 40 damage from level 2 Remnant.
Of course, it's not that simple. While oftentimes coordinated Storm players will have teammates there to add on additional damage, sometimes the 354*.75 + 76*3*(1-armour reduction) in overall damage isn't enough if you are alone.
So it comes down to what happens after the opening ZHPHRH (zip, hit, pull, hit, remnant, hit) combo. We shall compare level 2 overload to level 2 remnant in terms of "remaining killing power". First, we will assume Storm uses a "long zip" as opposed to using multiple micro zips. Say Storm is zipping a distance of 300 units. Because of Overload purge a second Remnant is easy to land.
OVERLOAD LEVEL 2
Storm has 345/600 mana remaining
Storm has done 354 magic damage
Combo: zip, hit, remnant (should have cooled down by now), hit
Damage from zip: 8*3 = 24
Manacost from zip: 15+42 + 3*16 = 105
Damage from Overload hit: 50
Damage from Remnant: 140
Manacost from Remnant: 70
Damage from Overload hit: 50
So in this second combo, Storm has 345 - 105 - 70 = 170 mana left
Storm has dealt an additional 264 damage. Total damage dealt: 354+264 = 618
REMNANT LEVEL 2
Storm has 335/600 mana remaining
Storm has done 334 magic damage
Damage from zip: 8*3 = 24
Manacost from zip: 15+42 + 3*16 = 105
Damage from Overload hit: 30
Damage from Remnant: 180
Manacost from Remnant: 80
Damage from Overload hit: 30
With level 2 Remnant, Storm deals the same additional 264 damage as he would have with Overload level 2 instead of Remnant 2, but it costs 10 mana more. Storm will be left with 150 mana and will have dealt 334+264 = 598 damage.
With "longer" zip jumps, level 2 remnant deals 20 less (magic) damage than level 2 overload after two combos and costs 20 mana more.
This mana cost discrepancy increases when comparing 1/3/3/1 and 3/3/1/1: additional damage total remains at +20 in favor of leveling Overload, but mana cost difference increases by 20 more again.
===
Let's say Storm is now being played by somebody like PIS. PIS utilizes micro zip jumps to maximize Overload damage. So instead of second combo being ZHRH PIS is more likely to use ZHZH or even ZHZHZH (later on). It goes without saying that by utilizing micro jumps, you get in more Overload damage. But at what cost to mana?
ZHZH requires two zips. So instead of zipping 300, let's say Storm zips 200 and then 100.
OVERLOAD 2
Zip 1 damage: 8*2 = 16
Overload damage: 50
Zip 2 damage: 8*1 = 8
Overload damage: 50
Zip 1 manacost: 15+42 + 2*16 = 89
Zip 2 manacost: 15+42 + 16 = 73
Zip total manacost: 162
Damage from ZHZH combo: 124
Storm has 345-162 = 183 mana left
At this point you can then move into ZHRH combo. Let's say Storm zips for 200 units again.
Zip 3 damage: 8*2 = 16
Overload damage: 50
Remnant damage: 140
Overload damage: 50
Total damage: 256
Zip 3 manacost: 15+42+32 = 89
Remnant manacost: 70
Total mana needed: 89 + 70 = 159
At this rate, Storm is effectively out of mana since he'll have 183-159 = 24 mana left.
So for 576 mana, Storm (Overload 2) has dealt...
ZHPHRH + ZHZH + ZHRH
354 + 124 + 256 = 734 magic damage.
Wow that's a lot assuming I'm not completely bonkers right now (and I've been up all night so that's a possibility).
===
Now let's look at ZHPHRH + ZHZH + ZHRH combo with Level 2 Remnant instead of Level 2 Overload
We already calculated ZHPHRH as:
Storm has 335/600 mana remaining
Storm has done 334 magic damage
ZHZH
Zip 1 damage: 8*2 = 16
Overload damage: 30
Zip 2 damage: 8*1 = 8
Overload damage: 30
Zip 1 manacost: 15+42 + 2*16 = 89
Zip 2 manacost: 15+42 + 16 = 73
Zip total manacost: 162
Damage from ZHZH combo: 84
Storm has 335-162 = 173 mana left
ZHRH
Zip 3 damage: 8*2 = 16
Overload damage: 30
Remnant damage: 180
Overload damage: 30
Total damage: 256
Zip 3 manacost: 15+42+32 = 89
Remnant manacost: 80
Total mana needed: 89 + 80 = 169
Storm is now out of mana pretty much. If you pulled this off perfectly, you'd be left with 4 mana (in reality more but remember I rounded down to 600).
So for 596 mana, Storm (Remnant 2) has dealt:
334 + 84 + 256 = 674 magic damage.
===
In conclusion:
Using both long jumps and micro jumps it is more cost-efficient to max out Overload instead of Remnant. You do [slightly] more damage for [slightly] less mana. Of course, DotA is a game of compounding [slight] advantages.
Yes, math is on overloads side. However I have to mention that you wont attack always with Overload, because you have to jump or stun. I think most pros build remnant because you can farm faster, burst better, OL is slightly better in terms of dmg, but you can use remnants against invisible heroes, and you can clear waves / camps much faster.
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United States47024 Posts
Max remnant has never been about maximizing up-front damage. Max remnant lets you farm waves or jungle camps more mana-efficiently after ganks, letting you have an overall smoother tempo. The damage difference isn't big enough to justify the loss in farming/clearing power for an overall smoother game.
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From what I have learned... Dai/Xii probably the most renown Storm player builds him Maxing Remnant first. Remnant is better for farming... If you need to carry this is a build to go! You still have lots of killing power, but you need to position yourself better. The best Storm player I have played with is SmurfSpirit in Nadl. He has a couple builds I believe, but usual one I see him do is getting 1-2 points in Remnant then going into Overlord. You want at least 3 points in grapple first though. It is game dependent and all that fun stuff.
Item build... Normal right now is orchid first currently. But honestly you can get a linkens then go Hotd Mkb and win games ezpz.
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I cba to scan throu the 127 pages of simple questions, so here goes.
When I get into a new game (pick/loading) in dota2 all my sound in windows is no longer available and when the game finishes the sound is back on. If I restart ventrilo or whatever programs I get the sound back on. Has this been a common issue and does anyone know how to fix this its freaking me out!
Thanks in advance.
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Canada2068 Posts
On May 13 2012 00:07 TheWarbler wrote:
From what I have learned... Dai/Xii probably the most renown Storm player builds him Maxing Remnant first. Remnant is better for farming... If you need to carry this is a build to go! You still have lots of killing power, but you need to position yourself better. The best Storm player I have played with is SmurfSpirit in Nadl. He has a couple builds I believe, but usual one I see him do is getting 1-2 points in Remnant then going into Overlord. You want at least 3 points in grapple first though. It is game dependent and all that fun stuff.
Item build... Normal right now is orchid first currently. But honestly you can get a linkens then go Hotd Mkb and win games ezpz.
I was under the impression that Korok (aka Kuroky) was the best Storm player in NADL.
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On May 13 2012 20:29 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 00:07 TheWarbler wrote:
From what I have learned... Dai/Xii probably the most renown Storm player builds him Maxing Remnant first. Remnant is better for farming... If you need to carry this is a build to go! You still have lots of killing power, but you need to position yourself better. The best Storm player I have played with is SmurfSpirit in Nadl. He has a couple builds I believe, but usual one I see him do is getting 1-2 points in Remnant then going into Overlord. You want at least 3 points in grapple first though. It is game dependent and all that fun stuff.
Item build... Normal right now is orchid first currently. But honestly you can get a linkens then go Hotd Mkb and win games ezpz. I was under the impression that Korok (aka Kuroky) was the best Storm player in NADL.
Korok =/ Kuroky.
Kuroky
Korok
It is his TL stream thread but he states he is US nationality. Kuroky is on Virtus Pro, Kurok is on Quantig (formerly ExGosu)
As far as Korok's ability to play storm spirit, I would consider him one of the best NA storm spirit players, but that is just my opinion.
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Can anyone provide me with guides/screenshots on how to ward dire/radiant jungle to block neutral camps? I've seen some dota one guides but it's hard for me to recognise the exact spot in dota 2.
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I found this guide about warding in Dota 2 to be pretty good.
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On May 14 2012 02:07 uNiGNoRe wrote:I found this guide about warding in Dota 2 to be pretty good.
sweet. i was wondering about the same thing adn this guide is awesome. thx
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Thanks for the guides. Now to absorb dota info and make some unhappy junglers in my low leveled games :D!
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On May 12 2012 06:35 Ottoxlol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:26 Zlasher wrote:On May 12 2012 03:51 paschl wrote:
When you play storm how much of pull do you need to skill to pull an enemy into the remnant? I know i heard smoeone say it before but i cant remember.
And how do you generally build storm if youre mid? (item/skillwise)
Oh and i never really got the hang of how you have to roll on someone to do damage, do you have to roll through them or is it just a small aoe where you end your roll? Small AOE where you land. Very small. No. It deals dmg if you roll through something.
dota2wiki
the dota1 page on playdota however is a bit more detailed.
Basically you deal damage all the way you roll, in a small AOE (not so small on lvl3 actually) that increases with level.
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Yep i tried it and the aoe isnt actually that small.
What im wondering is the initiation. Everybody says you should roll, attack, vortex, attack, remnant, attack etc.
But sometimes when you roll in and attack they have time to get off their stun first, or have a little time to run away.
Im not entirely convinced i shouldnt just roll and go straight for the vortex.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
You can roll and shift queue vortex while rolling.
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EPT
