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No it does not compensate at all.
And the talent of 2 Forge spirits at lvl 15 is much too late and almost useless.
The two forge spirits made invoker one of the best 1v1 heroes at 8. Made it possible to split push really hard, push towers and flash farm the jungle like mad - all while still being able to have global presence with sunstrike.
The point of QE builds was to be able to farm non stop, while still being able to help your team - while not wasting time with having to gank and get kills.
Getting to lvl 17 with Aghs as quickly as possible being the goal - which is slowed down soooo much now.
QE Invoker is basically nerfed hard now.
one spirit means less split pushing, less tower pushing, much slower jungle farming... also an indirect nerf to cold snap as there are fewer damage sources. Also no more int from exort...
lvl 8-15 were invokers flash farming time... which is completely ruined now.
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More wex points into alacrity farming and pushing? Euls for sunstrike meteor combo. That one single forge still has the same amount of damage without quas points invested. So maybe just 2 quas points for 100% uptime.
Considering how the game has become even more teamfight based, it's too early to say whether invoker has become garbage because of nerfed forge spirits. Not only it takes less xp now, the +20% xp gain talent is also huge in helping invoker reach end game.
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Eul's sunstrike combo is not viable - it costs way too much mana and there are so many possibilities to get out of it.
I'd go for the new Atos instead maybe? Probably not great, but better than euls.
Depends on whether you can get out of the entanglement with force/bkb - will test this later this week.
But the one less forge spirit has a much bigger impact than you think.
between jungle farm/push and especially less hits on coldsnap - it's pretty huge.
Make the 2 forge talent level 10 instead of 15 and it might work.
I'm not saying invoker is complete garbage now. but he sure as hell has been nerfed a lot lot lot 
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I think that two or three points in quas are definitely viable, getting tornado disable from .8 to 1.4, permanent forge spirit, 60% ice wall slow and triple deafening blast push duration all seem like good reasons to get a few points into it.
After that I assume it's the old exort invoker with some early points into wex.
Dominator might actually be a thing on this hero over drums.
Maybe veil now that emp is magical and forge spirits are only half as good.
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considering that the 4th point in Q is not really necessary anymore I would agree, 3 points quas.
after that it will be either W voker or E voker.
I will be doing mroe testing this weekend, but right now it looks to me like three points Q, then maxing W and E after looks the most interesting. especially as it seems there is much more fighting going on in this patch - and w is just too good with a tp in.
QE Invoker's bread-and-butter, the Meteor/Blast combo, is 500 mana. Sunstrike and Eul's on top of that is 850. That's pretty high. Uniquely, Invoker is affected by the loss of stats in the early and midgame, so his mana pool is dropping as mana costs are rising. So Exort-based Invoker builds are probably dead for that reason alone.
Mana is such a huge problem on Invo now. Deafening blast is 300, ghost walk is 200, ice wall is 175, sunstrike is 175, meteor is 200....
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On December 15 2016 18:04 sCuMBaG wrote:
considering that the 4th point in Q is not really necessary anymore I would agree, 3 points quas.
after that it will be either W voker or E voker.
I will be doing mroe testing this weekend, but right now it looks to me like three points Q, then maxing W and E after looks the most interesting. especially as it seems there is much more fighting going on in this patch - and w is just too good with a tp in.
QE Invoker's bread-and-butter, the Meteor/Blast combo, is 500 mana. Sunstrike and Eul's on top of that is 850. That's pretty high. Uniquely, Invoker is affected by the loss of stats in the early and midgame, so his mana pool is dropping as mana costs are rising. So Exort-based Invoker builds are probably dead for that reason alone.
Mana is such a huge problem on Invo now. Deafening blast is 300, ghost walk is 200, ice wall is 175, sunstrike is 175, meteor is 200....
I hope they rebalance his mana costs now that Invo doesn't get stats anymore. I assume the goal of the change was to make Invoker more flexible and less of a lategame powerhouse, but considering that his costs are so high I'm not sure that's fully functional yet.
I think another big hit to Exort Invoker is also that he's now increasingly squishy and doesn't really get anything from his 25 he didn't have before, so playing for lategame now isn't as viable anymore. He lost roughly a third of his max hp at lvl 25.
I also hope they swap the lvl 10 and lvl 15 talents.
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bumping this one.
i know invoker isnt a big deal right now, but recently you see lots of ppl going aquila treads into aghs without midas so you are a big more tanky etc. (+wand, clarities, drops, etc). what do you think about that? im having good results with this.
also wanna thank. i made a post about invoker here in december 2016 and recently i picked him up again (i had to learn mid role before playing him again - focusing on improving invoker and mid role is too much) and have good results. i managed to get to 4,1k eu and just had the game of my life.
also any advice vs tinker? i get dumpstered by him in lane.
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On February 22 2018 02:33 Tppz! wrote:
bumping this one.
i know invoker isnt a big deal right now, but recently you see lots of ppl going aquila treads into aghs without midas so you are a big more tanky etc. (+wand, clarities, drops, etc). what do you think about that? im having good results with this.
also wanna thank. i made a post about invoker here in december 2016 and recently i picked him up again (i had to learn mid role before playing him again - focusing on improving invoker and mid role is too much) and have good results. i managed to get to 4,1k eu and just had the game of my life.
also any advice vs tinker? i get dumpstered by him in lane.
I was watching a top 100 divine mid streamer who talked about the treads into aghs build.
The rationale is that it's a stronger item progression if you dominate your mid matchup; because you can hit get aghs at 14-16 mins while continuing to apply pressure on the enemy mid tower and laner. Investing 2.2k gold on midas essentially nullifies your laning gold advantage over the enemy mid and gives them openings to comeback against you.
If your lane is more contested and even then midas is your mechanic to comeback because your overall contribution is going to mostly be sunstrikes for a long time.
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3k safelane/ offlane here. I agree with him not being hot stuff right now. QE invoker is almost like an AM in playstile, and if he loses the lane for me it mean that the enemy almost has to throw to win.
In itemization i think that aquila is almost core in him, you get soo much of the aura in mid lane when you push (the armor for the wave feels almost op) .
Invoker QE need a ton of resources (gold and time) or a favorable team composition (that provide SS setup/ or teamfight setup) or the chance to snowball from the lane with supports ganks or solo kills. So i think that the QE style is situational at best, because most of the time your team is gonna forget that you need help and space before you can take over teamfights, and with the actual tempo of the games almost everyone knows that you can push vs Invoker with impunity (almost as bad as AM).
You need items but Midas is really difficult to pull off without losing the game right there. But if you dont get aghs + dagger + mana regen/utility (linken/euls) fast enough you are useless if your team doesnt have strong teamfight synergy.
I think that in a mmr bracket where supports are static and carries dont make impact in the map, you have to play QE aquila+treads (situational)+ aghs+ clarities and be very active going for kills and towers. Also pray that you dont get trashed in lane.
Or you can play QW (that is not as gold starved than QE) and follow Topson ways making space by yourself and snowballing your team, making a late midas to get 6 slotted if the games draws on.
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I like the hero (its so fun) but most of the time i perceive him as a liability (I have to carry this idiot who made a 13 min midas and is jungling)
Invoker doesnt really need amazing mechanics (they surely help) but a lot more of game sense and teamwork to be competitive thats the point i think.
So always think to yourself how can i help my team? before they flame you to no end... You need to have a clear purpose if you pick the hero. This is true for every other hero but its so easy to be at complete lost with invoker that i have to repeat it.
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Imo it's precisely because he's a bit like AM that Midas is so good on him. If you play 4 protect 1 anyways, might go all the way and go greedy.
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On February 22 2018 09:00 Archeon wrote:
Imo it's precisely because he's a bit like AM that Midas is so good on him. If you play 4 protect 1 anyways, might go all the way and go greedy.
I only want to add an if. Midas is good in invoker IF used pre 10 minutes probably. Midas gives you too little. I was checking a game of mine when i thinked that i made good use of the midas (with open dota) and i was wrong, midas is not so awesome, travel is the real boosting item for invoker.
And AM with BF min 12-15 can start pushing and skipping waves immediately, invoker with a midas and 3/4 scepter can not put pressure alone except of very poor supports out of position.
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Is Invoker bad enough that I shouldn’t pick him in 3-4k mmm games? I used to play him a lot but I’ve been having trouble winning games with him, just getting behind in farm in the early or mid game and failing to have much impact lategame.
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On March 19 2018 02:18 Fencar wrote:
Is Invoker bad enough that I shouldn’t pick him in 3-4k mmm games? I used to play him a lot but I’ve been having trouble winning games with him, just getting behind in farm in the early or mid game and failing to have much impact lategame.
Invo is much harder to play at the moment, but still more than doable - especially on those MMRs (I'm at 4.4k myself, so not much higher and I spam tons of Invo).
At the moment I tend to skip midas completely - winning lanes is much too important and it feels like I don't need it and am much more useful without (depending on game/draft and early laning stage of course). I just feel like you can actually have decent impact on the mid game without it.
but between power treads, wand and aquila your early game is dead easy (ship some clarities) to win and from there you can go for drums or euls into ags depending on the game (it happens more and more often that I opt for a force staff instead lately, a bit situational though)
not quite sure how you can fall behind in farm with invo - most invos don't do anything else in the first 20mins of the game, which is exactly why he is not that easy to play anymore (winning lanes is just way too important).
get a wand and boots - don't be one of those null straight into midas people.
keep shipping clarities, with your q you don't ever have to run back - a reason why farming with invo is always fairly easy.
oh and also raindrops are your best friend most games!
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Imo a large reason why the hero's so bad atm is that everyone in pro matches and high mmr buys a BKB between 15 and 25 mins, so Invo is kinda pushed into the very late game timing when everyone's BKB is hopefully low, you kite them until BKB run out and then aoe blast them. But the changes to butterfly and agility took Invoker's advantage in mobility away and made him really susceptible to getting caught and murdered.
Also OD f.e. is much better at kiting BKB heroes and has an early peak with his first ~6k gold, while sharing the lategame strength. A lot of lategame heroes are less vulnerable or more mobile than Invo.
On 3-4k nobody ever buys an early BKB though, so Invo and especially battle Invo can still totally function.
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Archeon one of your last post says that invoker should be played as 1 in a 4 protect one team composition. That is the big problem with invoker, nobody want to protect some guy that is gonna ask for commends and take all the credit being as selfish and arrogant as it gets. And even with a team like that, youre gonna get over run by a 3 core lineup in this meta.
Bkbs are no the big problem, team play and the tempo of the meta are (lane stage is all important, also there is not a single mechanic that allows you to stall in a world with lvl 25 talents and refresher orbs).
Ask yourself: Your mid is gonna pick invoker are you willing to pick something to help him and to play around him?
Or if you pick invoker: Are you willing to sacrifice your farm to help your team push tier 1 towers and get map control?
Can you ensure that you dont lose mid?
If you can not get out of lane without being a burden you shouldnt pick invoker in your bracket, that is my opinion and my answer to Fencar, If you can lane invoker pick him without worries and be active, and you shall have fun and also climb.
Meta wise if your bet to win the game is scale into 5 sec bkbs then play naga siren radiance, tinker, spectre or medusa (its a joke please). And midas is not gonna help you scale if you cant help your team to stall specially if you couldnt pressure the opposing mid, the game is gonna end long before youre relevant.
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Just because many Invo mains are selfish jerks with ego problems doesn't mean every one of them is. I've met some humble and nice Invos as well 
And yes, I've supported Invos I knew wouldn't carry the game time and time again and I still think that investing my time hoping that they are going to succeed enough that we have a second core for once is a better play than dumping this guy with his mediocre pick, mediocre laning, shitty farm speed and inability to hit combos.
As a matter of fact I've got a guy in my friendslist whom I haven't found a reason to kick yet aside from being a terrible player who spams an underpowered hard to execute combo hero without the required APM to actually execute said combos. But I can't damn him for trying to play the hero he likes and for trying to improve on said hero.
Which btw is what you do, "don't play a hero you aren't good at" is a very detrimental way of approaching the game that is surely going to hamper your growth as a player.
@items:
If you want to win with a fighting mid, pick a fighting mid. Invo simply doesn't rival the impact of a SF or OD or even DK or QoP either in lane or in early fights. That doesn't mean that you should never build treads aquilla drums agha, but it means that every time you do you could have picked an SF and might have had a far easier game.
Invo is btw fairly good at helping with the stall, he's one of the few heroes who can decently split and long range nuke creepwaves. And Midas always keeps you at the top of the pack in terms of Exp, which as you pointed out is very important due to how strong many 25 talents are.
It's kinda funny btw that you ask whether I can ensure that I don't loose mid. Nobody can ensure that he doesn't loose mid unless he intentionally feeds or is bad enough at mid and lategame that he stays at his MMR.
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Archeon i feel that i have to apologize to you. I have become kind of bitter in my way to approach at the game. I respect your positive attitude. And teamliquid is a constructive site that i love so...
I really dont want to discourage people trying to learn invoker.
On March 21 2018 04:56 Archeon wrote:
Which btw is what you do, "don't play a hero you aren't good at" is a very detrimental way of approaching the game that is surely going to hamper your growth as a player.
@items:
If you want to win with a fighting mid, pick a fighting mid. Invo simply doesn't rival the impact of a SF or OD or even DK or QoP either in lane or in early fights. That doesn't mean that you should never build treads aquilla drums agha, but it means that every time you do you could have picked an SF and might have had a far easier game.
I agree with you.
But what i want to insist is the value of learning how to lane with invoker and how to make an impact with him before 5 sec bkbs. I wholly agree with the fighting mid concept. And maybe the issue is that this meta feels like that imposes on you to play a fighting mid or stomp the other 2 lanes with is on your teammates.
Invoker is as good as you are as a "global player". You need to be not only good at combos and sheer mechanics, but map awareness and general game sense. And because of his great scaling if a player is good enough at the "macro" aspect, he doesnt even need to be able to perform a huge combo to climb. With invoker the macro can carry you really far.
If someone wants to learn invoker i think that the first thing to focus is to get out of the laning phase at the best condition posible. If you cant do that reliably then learn to lane with invoker and dont look at your winrate. Then focus on how to get ahead in gold and exp and be positive along the ride, is a skill reliant hero, look at your individual performance before putting the blame and the pressure on others.
I dont really know how many games requires to be "competitive (as 50% win rate)" with invoker but it requires most dedication and mental fortitude that other cores.
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Yeah it's not worth it unless he gets a buff imo
There are invoker spammers with 50% winrate in my bracket (which is really really bad for a hero you spam, that should be 60%++ easily)
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I mean it is just ancient[2] level and they definitely don't have the killer instinct, like TPing to towers when people are diving and doing other non-conventional stuff with high game awareness, but once you get higher and you do start to play close to perfectly you suddenly run into the wall of being off-meta and losing to coherent lineups.
Compare it to heroes like Spectre who are also hard initially and you need to gain map awareness, and it's very off-meta at highest brackets but you will destroy any sub 4k game once you get great on it as people never aggro trilane and such, while you're struggling hard on invoker
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EPT
