In its earliest, and some would say most potent form, magic was primarily the art of memory. It required no technology, no wands or appurtenances other than the mind of the magician. All the trappings of ritual were merely mnemonic devices, meant to allow the practitioner to recall in rich detail the specific mental formulae that unlocked a spell's power. The greatest mages in those days were the ones blessed with the greatest memories, and yet so complex were the invocations that all wizards were forced to specialize. The most devoted might hope in a lifetime to have adequate recollection of three spells--four at most. Ordinary wizards were content to know two, and it was not uncommon for a village mage to know only one--with even that requiring him to consult grimoires as an aid against forgetfulness on the rare occasions when he might be called to use it. But among these early practitioners there was one exception, a genius of vast intellect and prodigious memory who came to be known as the Invoker. In his youth, the precocious wizard mastered not four, not five, not even seven incantations: He could command no fewer than ten spells, and cast them instantly. Many more he learned but found useless, and would practice once then purge from his mind forever, to make room for more practical invocations. One such spell was the Sempiternal Cantrap--a longevity spell of such power that those who cast it in the world's first days are among us still (unless they have been crushed to atoms). Most of these quasi-immortals live quietly, afraid to admit their secret: But Invoker is not one to keep his gifts hidden. He is ancient, learned beyond all others, and his mind somehow still has space to contain an immense sense of his own worth...as well as the Invocations with which he amuses himself through the long slow twilight of the world's dying days.
Guides Slightly out of date. Midas is now very good on Invoker, instead of Drums. Basic builds are slightly different with respect to when you upgrade Invoke.+ Show Spoiler [Firebolt145's Invoker Guide] +
So you’ve probably heard of Invoker. You’ve probably either seen him being played by Dendi or some other pro on a stream somewhere, or you’ve seen him in a pub and thought ‘what just happened, I thought he already had cast 241235 spells at me and he still has more?!’, or you’ve just heard about what an awesome hero he is. Or you’ve already played him a little, been spoilt by just how versatile he is, and want to find out more.
Well, I’m going to try and walk you through everything you need to know to start playing Invoker. Also notice that I wrote ‘start playing Invoker’ - Invoker, like many other heroes in Dota, requires lots of experience to take full advantage of, and I cannot hope to try to cover everything in one guide.
Invoker is a hero that can fit into almost any line up. He offers initiation, multiple disables, huge single target damage as well as considerable AoE burst. Because of the way he works he can seem very daunting to attempt to learn, but I assure you that you will have a damn good time with him.
Invoker is an extremely flexible hero in how you allocate his skill points and every approach can be debated to death. However, there are a few fundamentally different approaches that can be distinguished from each other. I will start this guide by introducing the hero and his spells, followed by dedicating a section to each of his builds, talking about their items and starting skill builds.
In its earliest, and some would say most potent form, magic was primarily the art of memory. It required no technology, no wands or appurtenances other than the mind of the magician. All the trappings of ritual were merely mnemonic devices, meant to allow the practitioner to recall in rich detail the specific mental formulae that unlocked a spell's power. The greatest mages in those days were the ones blessed with the greatest memories, and yet so complex were the invocations that all wizards were forced to specialize. The most devoted might hope in a lifetime to have adequate recollection of three spells--four at most. Ordinary wizards were content to know two, and it was not uncommon for a village mage to know only one--with even that requiring him to consult grimoires as an aid against forgetfulness on the rare occasions when he might be called to use it. But among these early practitioners there was one exception, a genius of vast intellect and prodigious memory who came to be known as the Invoker. In his youth, the precocious wizard mastered not four, not five, not even seven incantations: He could command no fewer than ten spells, and cast them instantly. Many more he learned but found useless, and would practice once then purge from his mind forever, to make room for more practical invocations. One such spell was the Sempiternal Cantrap--a longevity spell of such power that those who cast it in the world's first days are among us still (unless they have been crushed to atoms). Most of these quasi-immortals live quietly, afraid to admit their secret: But Invoker is not one to keep his gifts hidden. He is ancient, learned beyond all others, and his mind somehow still has space to contain an immense sense of his own worth...as well as the Invocations with which he amuses himself through the long slow twilight of the world's dying days.
Stats 19+1.7 20+1.9 22+2.5 280 ms 1.8 armor 17-23 base dmg
When should I pick Invoker? Invoker fits into almost any situation. You provide initiation, disables, nukes, high damage.
When should I not pick Invoker? When your team already has one or two solo heroes. Invoker NEEDS a solo lane, preferably mid, and it’s never nice to pick him and say to someone else ‘buzz off mid please, I need it’. Invoker is a very level-dependent and somewhat item-dependent hero. If the enemy team starts to pick lots of pushing heroes and look geared to make a early-mid game push, avoid picking Invoker as you will not be effective at these low levels. Also, when the opponents have a lot of silences, such as from Silencer, Doom, Drow, Krob, etc. The reasoning is pretty obvious.
Quas Allows manipulation of ice elements and grants a permanent strength bonus. Each Quas instance provides increased health regeneration. Gives you more HP and regeneration.
Wex Allows manipulation of storm elements and grants a permanent agility bonus. Each Wex instance provides increased attack speed and movement speed. Gives you faster move speed and attack speed.
Exort Allows manipulation of fire elements and grants a permanent intelligence bonus. Each Exort instance provides increased attack damage. Gives you higher attack damage.
Invoke Combines the properties of the elements currently being manipulated, creating a new spell at the Invoker's disposal. Click the help button to see the list of possible spells. Upgradable by Aghanim's Scepter. Creates a spell depending on what 3 orbs you have active at that moment. Aghanim’s Scepter removes the mana cost and more importantly shortens the cooldown.
Cold Snap Legacy: Y Invoker draws the heat from an enemy, chilling them to their very core for a duration based on the level of Quas. The enemy will take damage and be briefly frozen. Further damage taken in this state will freeze the enemy again, dealing bonus damage. The enemy can only be frozen so often, but the freeze cooldown decreases based on the level of Quas. Cast it on a single enemy to ministun them. For a few seconds after that, every time they take damage they will be ministunned.
Ghost Walk Legacy: V Invoker manipulates the ice and electrical energies around him, rendering his body invisible. The elemental imbalance created as a consequence slows nearby enemies based on the level of Quas, and slows Invoker as well based on the level of Wex. Your escape skill. Cast it to go instantly invisible. Enemies around you will move slower. You will move slower too unless you have a high level of Wex.
Tornado Legacy: X Unleashes a fast moving tornado that picks up enemy units in its path, suspending them helplessly in the air shortly before allowing them to plummet to their doom. Travels further based on the level of Wex. Holds enemies in the air for a duration based on the level of Quas. Deals damage based on the levels of Quas and Wex. Throw a long range tornado in front of you which sends enemies up into the air for a period of time. Does damage to them as well.
EMP Legacy: C Invoker builds up a charge of electromagnetic energy at a targeted location which automatically detonates after a duration based on the level of Wex. The detonation covers an area, draining mana based on the level of Wex. Deals damage for each point of mana drained. Cast it at a location and after a few seconds it will explode draining the mana of all heroes in the area. Deals damage depending on how much mana drained.
Alacrity Legacy: Z Invoker infuses an ally with an immense surge of energy, increasing their attack speed based on the level of Wex and their damage based on the level of Exort. Cast on a unit to make them attack faster and harder.
Chaos Meteor Legacy: D Invoker pulls a flaming meteor from space onto the targeted location. Upon landing, the meteor rolls forward, constantly dealing damage based on the level of Exort, and rolling further based on the level of Wex. Units hit by the meteor will also be set on fire for a short time, receiving additional damage based on the level of Exort. Drop a fiery meteor on the ground which travels over distance. Enemy heroes that get hit receive some burn damage; heroes which are continuously hit by the meteor receive additional damage.
Sunstrike Legacy: T Sends a catastrophic ray of fierce energy from the sun at any targeted location, incinerating all enemies standing beneath it once it reaches the Earth. Deals damage based on the level of Exort, however this damage is spread evenly over all enemies hit. Cast at a location anywhere on the map. After 2 seconds, a sunstrike will hit the location dealing pure damage evenly divided between all units that it hits. Keep in mind that Sunstrike does pure damage and thus goes through all forms of magic resistance (not invulnerability!)
Forge Spirits Legacy: F Invoker forges a spirit embodying the strength of fire and fortitude of ice. Damage, health, and armor are based on the level of Exort while attack range, mana, and duration are based on the level of Quas. The elemental's scorching attack is capable of melting the armor of enemy heroes. If both Quas and Exort are level 4 or higher, Invoker will create two spirits instead of one. Create a pet that does damage and removes armor of any heroes that it attacks. If you have a minimum of four points in both Quas and Exort, you will create two pets.
Ice Wall Legacy: G Generates a wall of solid ice directly in front of Invoker for a duration based on the level of Quas. The bitter cold emanating from it greatly slows nearby enemies based on the level of Quas and deals damage each second based on the level of Exort. Creates a wall directly in front of you which drastically slows any enemy units in it, as well as dealing a little damage over time to them.
Deafening Blast Legacy: B If Invoker has 1 Quas, 1 Wex and 1 Exort instances, Deafening Blast is invoked. Invoker unleashes a mighty sonic wave in front of him, dealing up to 280 damage to any enemy unit it collides with based on Exort. The sheer impact from the blast is enough to knock those enemy units back for a maximum of 1.75 seconds based on Quas, in addition to preventing their attacks for a further 1-4 seconds based on Wex. Sends a wave out in front of you, dealing damage and pushing enemies back. Additionally, enemies hit by the blast are disarmed and cannot physically attack for a few seconds.
Invoker always has three elemental balls floating around his head. When you activate any of your three basic skills (Quas, Wex or Exort), it replaces the oldest element with the new one. For example, if you had originally cast Q W E, then cast a W, you would then have W E W.
When you cast your ultimate ‘Invoke’, the game looks at what three elements are floating around your head and creates one of the Invoked Spells depending on what combination you have. The order that you cast the elements does not matter. The newest spell that you invoke is put into your 4th spell slot, hotkey ‘D’ by default.
When you only have level 1 of ‘Invoke’, you can only have one spell Invoked at a time. Once you have level 2 Invoke (attainable at level 7) or higher, you can have up to two spells Invoked at any one time. Your newest spell will always go in the 4th spell slot, while the older one goes into the 5th spell slot, hotkey ‘F’ by default.
You cannot cast spells that you do not have actively Invoked and thus your judgement on what spells to have active at any time is very important, particularly at lower levels of Invoke when the cooldown is still quite long.
Introduction The QW Invoker prioritises putting points in Quas and Wex over Exort. This Invoker provides more mid-game utility, focusing less on straight up damage. The most recognisable spell combination that QW Invokers use is the Tornado -> EMP combo, which wipes out a chunk of the opposing team’s mana pool, severely disabling their teamfight capability.
Advantages - Easy laning phase with lots of regeneration - Extremely fast move speed and attack speed - Great teamfight spells in Tornado and EMP - Easy escape skill with Ghost walk Disadvantages - Lower attack damage, slightly harder to last hit - Not particularly high single target damage
Starting Items OR The first option gives you plenty of regen and some basic stats. 3 branches nicely set you on your way to a magic wand, not to mention they are the most cost-efficient item in the game as well. The circlet will later be converted into drums. However, the main advantage of the QW Invoker when laning is that he has very good regen already thanks to Quas, but he is disadvantaged by his low attack damage. The second starting items option addresses these points. By buying a blades of attack instead of the tangos, you gain additional attack damage to help you last hit.
Laning Magic wand is one of the best items in the game. Always carry a TP.
Boots Phase boots are definitely the boots of choice for a QW Invoker. They give you a nice chunk of attack damage and allow you to go very fast, one of the main benefits of the QW Invoker. You don’t need any of the benefits that the other boots offer. I usually rush this even before getting my magic wand.
Core Drums give you great stats (HP, int, attack damage, move speed as well as attack speed) and fits really well on Invoker. With drums, a high level of Wex, and phase boots, Invoker moves at close to max move speed at all times. Force staff provides even more mobility.
Late Game Sheepstick is a great item in all circumstances. Gives you plenty of mana regen and the active ability is priceless. Aghanim’s scepter reduces your Invoke cooldown considerably allowing you to spam even more spells.
Optional Items Depending on what line up you are against you may want to build a BKB or Linken’s sooner rather than later. Because of how much teamfight you can provide you will definitely be a priority target for disables. Eul’s provides an additional disable and allows you to move even faster. The silence from Orchid can be useful in some line ups. Skadi provides plenty of useful stats, though this item usually loses out to the other optional items. Boots of Travel becomes useful end game when you have nothing else to buy and need it for the added mobility around the map.
Rejected Items You do not need the health regen since you have Quas, and your spells are too mana intensive for the Bottle to be useful. You also have next to zero rune control ability compared to almost any other solo mid hero. Let someone else on the team pick up a bottle and control the runes. Refresher Orb is just not needed. Don’t be silly.
Skill Build At the very start you put your points in Quas. The regen from Quas is far more important than the miniscule movement/attack speed you would gain from Wex. Cold snap is also much more powerful for laning/ganking than EMP this early in the game. Although this skill build has 3 in Quas by level 5, this is very flexible. When you hit level 5, judge how much harass you are taking. If you’re against a QoP that is shadowstriking you on every cooldown, get a third level of Quas. If you’re not receiving too much harass, skip that third point in Quas for now and start focusing all your points in Wex. Wex makes your Invoker move much faster, as well as make his Tornado and EMP stronger, which start to become your staple spells. Once you have maxed your Wex you can start to divide points between your Quas and Exort, making the rest of your spells more powerful.
When do I put a point in Exort? Depends. Early game, your usual combination of Tornado -> EMP does not need Exort at all, and you should focus on maxing out your Wex first before anything else. However, should the game start to have a lot of teamfights and the enemy have several high physical damage heroes, you may want to put an early point into Exort, say around level 8 or 9. Once you have done this, your main combination will still be Tornado -> EMP, but your next spell will be Deafening blast rather than Cold snap. Deafening blast will disarm all the heroes you hit with it.
Invoked Spells These will be the main spells that you use as a QW Invoker. Cold snap is extremely powerful in laning and ganks, it can almost seem like perma stun. You can Invoke this spell once you reach level 2 and use it to harass your lane opponent.
Cold snap is pretty great at stopping enemies with long cast times such as Nature’s Prophet, Earthshaker, etc.
Tornado is the second spell you will start to use, providing some disable and damage. Keep in mind that enemies in the air will be invulnerable and cannot take damage. The tornado also travels very far when you start putting more points in Wex, so you can use it to snipe escaping enemies. Once you have about 4 or more points in Wex you can start combining your Tornado + EMP together. Cast the tornado at your enemies and immediately place your EMP underneath them while they are spinning in the air. It should explode just as they arrive on the ground, preventing them from avoiding the EMP. Practice it a couple times to get the timing right. Keep in mind that if the EMP explodes while they are still in the tornado the EMP will not affect them. Ghost walk is your escape skill. It instantly makes you invisible upon casting (obviously revealable by dust/sentries/gem/etc).
How do you play? Laning You will almost always want to be in solo mid. Solo side lanes are doable. You are extremely level dependent early in the game so cannot afford to share XP with anyone else. Do not ever go into a dual/trilane, it will become very ugly. When you get to the lane, feel free to trade hits with the opposing hero. Your first point in Quas means you pretty much have a free ring of health at the beginning and makes it very hard for opposing heroes to harass you down easily. Once you are level 2, Invoke your Cold snap. When you get the opportunity, use it on the enemy and hit him a couple times, he will be forced to back off allowing you to get free last hits. Focus on getting last hits and XP. Once you are level 4 you will get your first point in Wex, giving you access to Tornado and Ghost walk. It becomes much easier to gank the enemy hero now, especially if an ally comes to help with a stun or slow. Keep in mind however that a Tornado with only level 1 Wex is extremely short ranged. If you are ganked, quickly Cold snap the most dangerous threat, then go into Ghost walk. As mentioned earlier, although the skill build I posted has 3 in Quas by level 5, this is very flexible. When you hit level 5, judge how much harass you are taking. If you’re against a QoP that is shadowstriking you on every cooldown, get a third level of Quas. If you’re not receiving too much harass, skip that third point in Quas for now and start focusing all your points in Wex. However, don’t feel too upset about putting 3 in Quas if you have to, because Cold snap is just so ridiculously strong. The one laning disadvantage of Invoker is that you cannot easily push your lane before the rune spawn timings. Remind your teammates to focus on collecting the rune every 2 minutes to deny the enemy solo mid from getting them.
Ganking Once you reach level 7 you can gank very easily with Tornado and Cold snap, throwing EMP’s in once you start getting level 4 or higher in Wex. Feel free to start roaming the map to create ganks. Pay attention to which lanes need it most. Is the opposing carry farming too easily, or is your own allied carry not getting enough space to farm? Did the rune spawn at top or bottom? These things will influence which lane you choose to gank.
Teamfights You are a huge presence in teamfights, make sure you are always there by carrying a TP with you wherever you go. Use your judgement on when to initiate. If you see the opponents out of place or clumped up together, send in a Tornado + EMP to wipe out their mana.
Although this is only against one person, you can imagine how devastating this combination can be against an entire team. Taking away all their mana is like silencing all of them for the rest of the fight!
This combo will work in all situations, when you are pushing or when you are being pushed. They will often back out since they will no longer have enough mana for their high cost teamfight ults, allowing you to dive in and mop up if necessary. Use Cold snap liberally to keep a hero almost permanently stunned, which also reduces how much damage the enemy hero outputs as it will interrupt all his cast/attack animations. As the game goes later and the opposing team starts to pick up multiple arcane boots, your EMP will start to lose some effectiveness and you may choose to forgo the EMP for other spells.
Late Game As the game goes later, your EMP will start to have much less effect so you may want to skip it entirely. Focus on using Tornado, Ice wall, Cold snap and Deafening blast in teamfights. Once you have more points in Exort, you can start spamming all your spells. Use your Tornado -> Chaos Meteor -> Deafening blast for lots of AoE damage. Plant an Ice wall across everything, Cold snap their main damage dealer to interrupt as many of his autoattacks as possible. Cast Alacrity on your own team’s main damage dealer, often yourself. Use Sunstrike when needed. After casting everything, if the fight is still going on, Invoke your spells with low cooldowns such as Cold snap, Tornado, Ice wall and Deafening blast, and use them again.
When it’s late in the game and the physical carries start to dominate, one of your strongest spells will be Deafening blast. With maxed Wex, it will disarm all heroes that it hits for a full 4 seconds. Do not forget how powerful this is.
Introduction The QE Invoker focuses more on Quas and Exort, forgoing points in Wex. This Invoker focuses on straight up damage. You have Sunstrike from level 2 onwards allowing you to provide some global gank, albeit slightly difficult to hit. You sacrifice some mid game utility for lots of early and late damage.
Advantages - Lots of right click damage making last hitting very easy - Provides global gank with Sunstrike - Very high single target damage output early and mid game Disadvantages - Fewer teamfight spells in midgame - Low movement speed - Ghost walk not available as an escape skill till later
Starting Items These items give you plenty of regen and some stats. The circlet can be converted into drums and the branches into a magic wand. The reason the salve/blades of attack/branch option is not viable for QE Invoker is because your points in Quas come later, while you have plenty of last hit damage with your Exort points.
Laning Magic wand is one of the best items in the game. Always carry a TP.
Boots OR OR The choice of boots for a QE Invoker is really up to personal preference. Power treads give you attack speed which is useful as your right click damage is really high. Arcane boots give you much needed mana regeneration as your spells all have very high mana costs. Phase boots give you a nice mobility boost.
Core Drums give you great stats (HP, int, attack damage, move speed as well as attack speed) and fits really well on Invoker. These are important because without focusing on Wex, Invoker has a very low move speed. Additionally the drums will buff your Forge Spirits. Force staff provides even more much needed mobility.
Late Game Sheepstick is a great item in all circumstances. Gives you plenty of mana regen and the active ability is priceless. Aghanim’s scepter reduces your Invoke cooldown considerably allowing you to spam even more spells.
Optional Items If you choose not to go for Arcane boots, you will have no mana regen until you get your Sheepstick. Urn is one option to deal with this, providing 50% mana regen. Because of Exort’s lack of mobility, I will not completely argue against going for a blink with/instead of your Force staff, especially if you want to feel like Dendi. Depending on what line up you are against you may want to build a BKB or Linken’s sooner rather than later. Because of how much teamfight you can provide you will definitely be a priority target for disables. The silence from Orchid can be useful in some line ups. Skadi provides plenty of useful stats, though this item usually loses out to the other optional items. Boots of Travel becomes useful end game when you have nothing else to buy and need it for the added mobility around the map.
Rejected Items You do not need the health regen since you have Quas, and your spells are too mana intensive for the Bottle to be useful. You also have next to zero rune control ability compared to almost any other solo mid hero. Let someone else on the team pick up a bottle and control the runes. Midas is rejected because although in theory it helps you carry/gain XP, it delays your core items which increase your survivability and mobility (drums, force staff), which is what QE Invokers sorely need. You may argue this is seen in progames, but this is rare and only situational, like when they use it to counter a Chen/Enchantress. Refresher Orb is just not needed. Don’t be silly.
Skill Build This build aims to give you 4 in Quas and 4 in Exort by level 10, getting you two Forge Spirits which are incredibly powerful. Once you have done so you will get a point in Wex at level 11 to access the rest of your spells, most importantly Ghost walk. After this you will max out your Exort, followed by dividing your points in Quas and Wex as you see fit.
Extra tip: if you are taking next to zero harass and thus do not need a second level of Quas, do not put your level 6 point into Quas. Save it for level 7 where you can put your 2 points into Invoke and an extra point of Exort. This will make your Sunstrike hit even harder a level earlier than it otherwise would.
OR
This build delays the double Forge Spirits, focusing on making you hit harder and have a much more powerful Sunstrike. With this build you are flexible in when you put a point in Wex, giving you much earlier access to Ghost walk, Chaos meteor and Tornado if you need it this early.
When do I get a point in Wex? Depends. If you’re rushing double Forge Spirits, ideally you don’t want to get it till level 11 since you need all your points in Quas and Exort. However if you’ve died 3 times before 10 minutes in and you find that the opponents are attempting to ganking you over and over again, feel free to put a point in Wex as early as you want so you can Ghost walk in a jiffy. If you’re not going double Forge Spirits, feel free to put 1 point in Wex whenever you want. Do not get a point in Wex early thinking ‘yay, I now can casts tornado/deafening blast/chaos meteor/EMP’. Too many pub Invokers do this and cast these spells when they are still extremely weak. Stick with your Forge spirits/Cold snap/Ice wall/Sunstrike until you’re level 15-16 or so. The point of getting Wex early is purely to open up Ghost walk as an escape skill.
Invoked Spells These are the main spells you will use as a QE Invoker. The first spell you will get access to is Sunstrike. Cold snap is still extremely powerful, though slightly delayed at level 4 as your first points will be put into Exort. Once you reach level 7 you can start throwing Ice wall in the mix. It is an extremely powerful AoE slow that can be a little hard to place before you have your Force staff.Once you reach level 10 and have your double Forge spirits, you should ALWAYS have them both out.
How do you play? Laning You will almost always want to be in solo mid. solo side lanes are doable. You are extremely level dependent early in the game so cannot afford to share XP with anyone else. Do not ever go into a dual/trilane, it will become very ugly. Your right click damage will be very high at the beginning so last hitting will be relatively easy. It is quite easy to throw extra shots at your opposing hero, keep trying to harass them. Once you are level 2, Invoke your Suntrike. You should be constantly checking the other lanes to see if there are any low HP heroes that you can attempt a Sunstrike at. Ask your teammates to spam ping on anyone they plan to gank so you are ready to send a Sunstrike their way. Once you get Cold snap at level 4, you have a pretty powerful combination. Try to predict where your opponent will be in 2 seconds, cast Sunstrike, then immediately Invoke Cold snap onto them. With a few hits from yourself back in 3Exort, you should be able to kill anything.
In this video I do not have to hit him as the Sunstrike + initial damage from Cold snap is enough, but you get the idea. Can also be done the other way round, by Cold snapping them first and then invoking Sunstrike.
Ganking Before level 10, try not to gank too much. That’s not to say ‘don’t help your team on side lanes’, but prioritise staying on the lane and gaining as much gold and experience as possible. Your main skills for ganks before level 10 will be Cold snap, Sunstrike and occasionally Ice wall. The combination is the same as mentioned in the laning phase. If you can get close, Ice wall is an extremely powerful skill that slows everything inside it. Once you are level 10 you will have the double Forge Spirits. These should be out close to 100% of the time. They do a TON of damage (they have netted me many kills even after I have died), and also reduce the armor of enemy heroes each time they hit them. With a combination of Forge Spirits and 3 Exorts on yourself, you do a TON of right click damage. Don’t be surprised if you can suddenly 3 shot an enemy support from full hp.
Teamfights What you lack in disables you make up for in pure damage. Throw down your Ice wall in the middle of the fight to try and slow everything, throw Cold snap on the main hero you want to keep disabled, and just right click everything. Make sure to micro your Forge Spirits to attack your main target as well. Use Sunstrike for a big burst on a disabled hero or save it to try and snipe escaping heroes.
Late game Spam spells like a madman, especially once you get your Aghanims Scepter. Always have your Forge Spirits out, and have your Tornado + Chaos Meteor ready and invoked. Start teamfights with Tornado -> Chaos Meteor -> Deafening blast. Plant an Ice wall across everything, Cold snap their main damage dealer to interrupt as many of his autoattacks as possible. Cast Alacrity on your own team’s main damage dealer, often yourself. Use Sunstrike when needed. After casting everything, if the fight is still going on, Invoke your spells with low cooldowns such as Cold snap, Tornado, Ice wall and Deafening blast, and use them again.
Often, Tornado Meteor Blast is enough already!
When it’s late in the game and the physical carries start to dominate, one of your strongest spells will be Deafening blast. With maxed Wex, it will disarm all heroes that it hits for a full 4 seconds. Do not forget how powerful this is.
Of all your spells, the only one I wouldn’t bother to use is EMP. This late in the game, the mana drain is almost negligible, plus the enemies will probably have a couple arcane boots already anyway.
Introduction Due to popular demand I have decided to include a section on the WE Invoker. The WE Invoker prioritises putting points in Wex and Exort over Quas, focusing much more on straight up damage than anything else. There are two different ways to play the WE Invoker, dictated by your item choices. You can focus either on spell damage or on right click damage.
Advantages - Extremely high nuke damage, can evaporate high HP enemies in a split second Disadvantages - Very little utility or control - Not much damage outside of your wombo-combo - Very low survivability due to forsaking Quas - Countered by BKB
Starting Items This gives you plenty of regen and some basic stats. 3 branches nicely set you on your way to a magic wand, not to mention they are the most cost-efficient item in the game as well.
Laning Magic wand is one of the best items in the game. Always carry a TP.
Boots They give you a nice chunk of attack damage and allow you to go very fast, one of the main benefits of the QW Invoker. You don’t need any of the benefits that the other boots offer. I usually rush this even before getting my magic wand.
Core
OR Euls is core because it plays a large part in your spell combo, guaranteeing you hit your Sunstrikes. Force staff provides mobility, but you can get blink instead if you prefer.
Late Game Sheepstick is a great item in all circumstances. Gives you plenty of mana regen and the active ability is priceless. Aghanim’s scepter reduces your Invoke cooldown considerably allowing you to spam even more spells.
Optional Items Depending on what line up you are against you may want to build a BKB. The silence and amplify damage from Orchids gives you even more burst. Refresher allows you to use your big burst combo in quick succession without having to wait a minute for everything to come off cooldown. Boots of Travel becomes useful end game to be anywhere on the map.
Skill Build Apart from the one point in Quas at level 4, you are maxing out Exort followed by Wex. This will give you access to all your spells early, particularly Deafening Blast. Your right clicks will hit very hard and you will do a ton of damage with your Sunstrike, Chaos Meteor and Deafening Blast.
Invoked Spells These are the main spells you will use as a spell casting WE Invoker. At the very beginning, you will stick to Sunstrike and Cold Snap, soon adding Meteor and Deafening Blast to your combination as soon as you get a few points in Wex.
How do you play? Laning Head to the middle lane. You are extremely level dependent and item dependent and thus should not share a lane with anyone else. Focus on getting last hits. Once you have Sunstrike, check the side lanes for any kill opportunities. You can try and combo Sunstrike and Cold Snap together to try and get a kill yourself.
Ganking Once you hit level 7 you can start to attempt ganks. Before you have your Euls, you should walk around with Cold Snap and Meteor invoked and ready. When you find a target, Cold Snap it, cast Meteor on top and immediately invoke and cast Deafening Blast the target along the path of the Meteor. You can use Sunstrike to try and pick them off if they are still alive. Once you have Euls, have Sunstrike and Meteor invoked and ready instead of Cold Snap. Euls the target, wait about a second, Sunstrike + Meteor on top followed by Deafening Blast. This may take a few attempts to time properly, but when done correctly can annihilate any hero from full HP.
Teamfights Not much to add here. Use your Euls + Sunstrike combo on the biggest threat, then try and hit as many enemies as possible with your Meteor + Deafening Blast combo. Use Alacrity on yourself/your carry after that.
This WE Invoker is the most trolly of the Invoker builds, but can be a lot of fun. It plays like any other hard carry, focusing on attack damage and speed. This Invoker is capable of dishing out a ton of damage due to help from Alacrity and Exort orbs.
Advantages - Extremely high sustained damage Disadvantages - Very little utility or control - Very little burst outside Daedalus crits - Very low survivability due to forsaking Quas and using Mask of Madness
Starting Items This gives you plenty of regen and some basic stats. 3 branches nicely set you on your way to a magic wand, not to mention they are the most cost-efficient item in the game as well.
Laning Magic wand is one of the best items in the game. Always carry a TP.
Boots OR Power Treads are the boots of choice if you are going for pure right click damage, though you may also go for Phase Boots if you prefer the additional mobility.
Core On top of lifesteal, Mask of Madness gives you insane attack speed when combined with Alacrity. Daedalus gives you yet more damage, yippee.
Late Game Terrible, terrible damage. More armor/attack speed for you, less armor for the enemy. Mjollnir is also more damage/attack speed but gives you a bit of pseudo-AoE damage, helping you to push/counter push. Boots of Travel is always amazing in late game, allowing you to be anywhere you want to be. No such thing as too many Rapiers.
Optional Items Drums provides HP, int, move speed and attack speed. BKB allows you to stand in the middle of everything and dish out the hurt without getting disabled. Orchids give you attack speed, some damage and lots of mana regeneration, as well as an excellent ability to silence people. MKB gives yet more damage and true hit, allowing you to ignore all those pesky evasion heroes or butterfly. Shadow Blade is a decent choice right now due to the damage + attack speed it gives you as well as the extra damage on reveal. The stealth active on it isn’t bad either, adding to your Ghost Walk as escape skills. Lastly, Butterfly provides a ton of attack speed, and the evasion is excellent if you are facing other physical damage heroes.
Rejected Items Manta is usually one of those default ‘right click’ items. However it isn’t as good on Invoker as most of your damage comes from your three Exort orbs + Alacrity + Mask of Madness, none of which carry over to your illusions.
Skill Build Apart from the one point in Quas at level 4, you are maxing out Exort followed by Wex. You will hit extremely hard and your Alacrity will give you a ton of extra damage on top. The one point in Quas is still important as Cold Snap is incredibly powerful for ganking, as well as giving you access to Ghost Walk as an escape skill.
Invoked Spells These are the main spells you will be using as a carry WE Invoker. Stick to Sunstrike and Cold Snap at the beginning, throw in Alacrity once you have two points in Wex. Chaos Meteor and Deafening Blast become more useful very late game.
How do you play? Laning Head to the middle lane. You are extremely level dependent and item dependent and thus should not share a lane with anyone else. Focus on getting last hits. Once you have Sunstrike, check the side lanes for any kill opportunities. You can try and combo Sunstrike and Cold Snap together to try and get a kill yourself.
Ganking Once you hit level 7 or so you can start to gank. Walk around with Alacrity and Cold Snap invoked. Cold Snap your target, cast Alacrity on yourself and proceed to hit him like a truck. Once you get your Mask of Madness you will do the same but hit him like 5 trucks, in quick succession. Sunstrike if he gets away.
Teamfights More of the same. At this point your strength is not in your spells but in your items, like any other hard carry. Hit stuff. You can throw in a Chaos Meteor or Deafening Blast if you feel like it. Did I mention this was a troll build?
VI. Random Tips - Cheat sheet! Have this open on your second screen or whatever. + Show Spoiler +
- One important thing I will mention is the following: In the early game, only focus on using 3 or at the very most 4 of your spells. Your mana costs are high and any spell that I did not list in this guide is very weak in the early game because you do not have enough points to make them powerful. If you start spamming spells which your build does not focus on, you will run out of mana quickly while not achieving anything.
- At work and want to practice your Invoking skills? Go to http://www.invokergame.com/ for a website that helps you commit all the spells to muscle memory.
VII. Replays and Testimonials Replays coming soon.
- So a friend of mine enjoys making movies and decided to make a montage of Invoker clips from a week's worth of my games (plus one of his) to help promote my stream. I thought it was pretty well done :D
- Invoker is my favourite hero and I play him very often. You can easily find a VOD of me playing Invoker on my stream. If I’m streaming, feel free to ask me questions in the chat as well.
VIII. FAQ Q) Yo wtf, why don't you get Wex or Exort at this level, why do you get drums, all the pros are not getting that anymore, get with the Chinese and out of the Western meta!
On September 21 2012 04:45 SKC wrote: People that are supposed to try new things and "innovate the metagame" are probally not basing their play on a TeamLiquid strategy guide. People need to be less picky about this kind of stuff when it's purpose is mostly to show how a hero that they don't know works in broad terms. Things that would make you whine about in a QQ thread are issues. So many of the complaints you see in guides are basically meaningless, things that you wouldn't even notice in a pub game and only exist to create a 2 page discussion on the General thread about wether Phases or Threads are better for X hero.
People will put a little bit off their personal touch in guides because quite often they play the hero that way. If Aui wrote a guide recommending Maelstrom on Sylla I wouldn't jump on his throat because most pro players would go for Radiance on the same situation. If a player starts off going Maelstrom because he read that guide and learns to play that way, it's fine. It's a good enough build for that purpose (which should be the purpose of a guide). After he knows more about the hero he will probally try out diferent things and decide for himself what he feels is better for his play style.
A good guide lasts for years, it doesn't have to change each time a new way to play the hero is popular. It just covers the basics and gives you enough information not to do something completelly stupid. "That was the right way to play a week ago, now the pros are doing it this way." is a shitty complaing for this kind of stuff.
IX. Changelog 19/09/2012 - My birthday! Posted the guide. 20/09/2012 - Added a short ‘when to pick/when to not pick Invoker’ section. Added a few optional/rejected items (Euls, Urn, Midas etc). Added discussion on how many Q to get for QW build, as well as when to get the 1 point of E as QW or W as QE. Put slightly more emphasis on Deafening Blast. 30/01/2013 - Added section on WE Invoker.
I dont think u understand how WE works, with mom phase alacrity your damage ouput at lv 7-9 is only rivaled by a Huskar with <3% hp, and with a single level of Q u have just cold snap alacrity for whats essentially a sure kill in your solo mid lane.
This guide is filled with this or last level builds, needs more next level builds
PS: Deafening blast is the best skill lane game, mention it more
On September 20 2012 02:52 Kupon3ss wrote: I dont think u understand how WE works, with mom phase alacrity your damage ouput at lv 7-9 is only rivaled by a Huskar with <3% hp, and with a single level of Q u have just cold snap alacrity for whats essentially a sure kill in your solo mid lane.
This guide is filled with this or last level builds, needs more next level builds
PS: Deafening blast is the best skill lane game, mention it more
Yeah, no.
I do not aim to give a 'new' way to play Invoker, only to walk through the current styles and break it down for people new to the hero.
I will put more emphasis on Deafening Blast in an edit when I can be bothered :D
For QW Invoker, you generally want to prioritise Wex much earlier. Cold Snap is essentially the same at 1Q 2Q or 3Q. Not that great of a difference. The purpose for Wex that early on is the range of the Tornado, and not the EMP. You definitely don't want such a short Tornado at level 7. I usually go QRWWWQR, although I might get the 2nd Quas earlier. Higher Quas really isn't that necessary.
For EQ Invoker, if you do not intend to get Wex early, there is a better skill build. Essentially, it's the same as yours, except at level 6 you don't use a skill point. At level 7, you skill both Exort and Invoke. That way, you have a 4E1Q2R by level 7. Cold Snap at 1Q or 2Q doesn't make that much of a difference as compared to Sunstrike at 3E or 4E at level 7
Also note that EQ Invoker should only be played if your allies have good disables for you to land Sunstrike early. Otherwise, you have very little impact to the game early on.
In teamfights you can still throw Meteor + Blast, although yea I don't really like using that combo until mid late game
Lastly, Urn is a good choice for QE Invoker, as the mana regen is generally sufficient for your usage.
I'm not a fan of your QW portion, but otherwise your QE side is generally spot on.
You don't think WE is worth covering? o_O I mean I guess it's not as good but it kind of feels hmm incomplete without it...
What's your opinion on the Q 4 E 4 -> W 7 build? It's a Forged Spirit opening that afterwards switches into maxing W. It's the strongest with Aghs because every single spell of yours will be usable... Will have lots of mana problems though. It used to be my favorite Invoker build back in the day ... Perhaps not as strong as others but it's able to do everything as long as you have the mana.
That's a good point regarding the QW skill build, I shall change it to mention that you basically get as many Quas points as you feel necessary for regen, then start focusing on Wex.
I knew there was a little trick you could do with the QE Invoker to gain an additional point of Exort early, but couldn't for the life of me remember what it was. I shall mention it as an additional little tip that people can choose to follow, though I personally am happy sticking with my 3E 2Q 2Invoke at level 7.
QE Invoker is easier to play with good disables for Sunstrike, but I refuse to believe that you shouldn't play it at all if you don't have them!
Using Meteor + Blast in early teamfights is heavy on mana and not terribly effective without the levels. I do not agree on recommending that until much later. I don't use them until I have either Aghanim's Scepter or level 17.
Urn is definitely a good idea, I shall mention it in the optional items.
If you tell me what you dislike about the QW portion it would help; I am trying to make this a guide for everyone.
On September 20 2012 07:07 Shikyo wrote: You don't think WE is worth covering? o_O I mean I guess it's not as good but it kind of feels hmm incomplete without it...
What's your opinion on the Q 4 E 4 -> W 7 build? It's a Forged Spirit opening that afterwards switches into maxing W. It's the strongest with Aghs because every single spell of yours will be usable... Will have lots of mana problems though. It used to be my favorite Invoker build back in the day ... Perhaps not as strong as others but it's able to do everything as long as you have the mana.
No serious game will have a WE Invoker in it. It is purely a troll build that can be summarised as 'get MoM, use Alacrity, right click stuff.' Anyone that will consider playing WE as a troll should already be relatively experienced with Invoker and should not need a guide.
I've never come across anyone using the 4Q 4E -> 7W build before. It sounds extremely weak to me. The whole purpose of maxing Wex is to 1) gain range on all your spells (Tornado, Chaos Meteor, Deafening blast etc) or 2) make EMP stronger. EMP is quite pointless by the time you've gotten enough points in Wex following this build, and between making your spells longer and making them hit harder with more points in Exort, I'd pick Exort any day.
For myself personally, I think of Eul's as being a core item. Mostly because especially going QW, it is such a helpful ability. Getting it early on means you do not need to extend the Q points for regen and is a very simple item to get. Since it has 150% mp regend, you will be fine and the added movement speed makes one even deadlier.
Of course drums be fine as well, I just like the added CC element that allows for skills to be off cooldown. Pretty much running is impossible.
The point just is to get fast Forged Spirits and then have every spell usable. I'd say it at least is the most fun Invoker build and the most versatile, even though it's not technically as powerful.
On September 20 2012 07:39 Shikyo wrote: The point just is to get fast Forged Spirits and then have every spell usable. I'd say it at least is the most fun Invoker build and the most versatile, even though it's not technically as powerful.
Also, yes, I'd go Euls with this for the mana.
Getting one point in it already opens up all the spells. One point is enough, there is no reason to get 7 before you max your Exort.
On September 20 2012 07:28 Nilrem wrote: For myself personally, I think of Eul's as being a core item. Mostly because especially going QW, it is such a helpful ability. Getting it early on means you do not need to extend the Q points for regen and is a very simple item to get. Since it has 150% mp regend, you will be fine and the added movement speed makes one even deadlier.
Of course drums be fine as well, I just like the added CC element that allows for skills to be off cooldown. Pretty much running is impossible.
I do not feel it deserves being called 'core', but it certainly is a very strong Optional item. For QE Invokers I feel it's a little unnecessary and they should just rush getting their Sheepstick/Aghanim's.
On September 20 2012 06:59 DucK- wrote: For QW Invoker, you generally want to prioritise Wex much earlier. Cold Snap is essentially the same at 1Q 2Q or 3Q. Not that great of a difference. The purpose for Wex that early on is the range of the Tornado, and not the EMP. You definitely don't want such a short Tornado at level 7. I usually go QRWWWQR, although I might get the 2nd Quas earlier. Higher Quas really isn't that necessary.
For EQ Invoker, if you do not intend to get Wex early, there is a better skill build. Essentially, it's the same as yours, except at level 6 you don't use a skill point. At level 7, you skill both Exort and Invoke. That way, you have a 4E1Q2R by level 7. Cold Snap at 1Q or 2Q doesn't make that much of a difference as compared to Sunstrike at 3E or 4E at level 7
Also note that EQ Invoker should only be played if your allies have good disables for you to land Sunstrike early. Otherwise, you have very little impact to the game early on.
In teamfights you can still throw Meteor + Blast, although yea I don't really like using that combo until mid late game
Lastly, Urn is a good choice for QE Invoker, as the mana regen is generally sufficient for your usage.
I'm not a fan of your QW portion, but otherwise your QE side is generally spot on.
the point of higher quas is so that you get more laning power from the hilarious sustain and by 13 you max wex anyways....
On September 20 2012 06:59 DucK- wrote: For QW Invoker, you generally want to prioritise Wex much earlier. Cold Snap is essentially the same at 1Q 2Q or 3Q. Not that great of a difference. The purpose for Wex that early on is the range of the Tornado, and not the EMP. You definitely don't want such a short Tornado at level 7. I usually go QRWWWQR, although I might get the 2nd Quas earlier. Higher Quas really isn't that necessary.
For EQ Invoker, if you do not intend to get Wex early, there is a better skill build. Essentially, it's the same as yours, except at level 6 you don't use a skill point. At level 7, you skill both Exort and Invoke. That way, you have a 4E1Q2R by level 7. Cold Snap at 1Q or 2Q doesn't make that much of a difference as compared to Sunstrike at 3E or 4E at level 7
Also note that EQ Invoker should only be played if your allies have good disables for you to land Sunstrike early. Otherwise, you have very little impact to the game early on.
In teamfights you can still throw Meteor + Blast, although yea I don't really like using that combo until mid late game
Lastly, Urn is a good choice for QE Invoker, as the mana regen is generally sufficient for your usage.
I'm not a fan of your QW portion, but otherwise your QE side is generally spot on.
the point of higher quas is so that you get more laning power from the hilarious sustain and by 13 you max wex anyways....
The +9 HP Regen is an overkill. +6 is enough. Do you really crave for more HP regen when you get RoH on heroes?
Note that QW Invokers they should be in WWW all the time, and only add the Quas regent if you really need the regen. Alot of players lane with QQQ even when they have full HP.
The point of getting W earlier, is so that you can actually kill things at 7. 800 range Tornado is not acceptable.
drum on qw invoker is no longer standard. Instead, invokers (430, Yao) go phase>>wand>>force>>sheep
and duck, the super standard build is qrqwwwrw (the increase in regen allows you to win trades with almost all heros and if you start with only a set of tangoes you will most likely like the two points of quas by lvl 3).
and the forge spirit rush into max wex seems like a bad idea because it delays wex until it is more useless while not utilizing the advantages of exort (i.e. max exort sun strike, meteor, raw damage, mana pool, etc). It is also a reverse build of qw.
Also, OP your QE builds are terrible. The true forge spirits build is ereqewerqqq (allowing for earlier ghost walks, nados tho rare, meteor, deafening blast, and access to every spell) and then maxing exort before getting the third level of invoke is how the build is. Midas is also very good on this build. QE Invoker is a carry Invoker so the advantage in farm and exp it gives are very useful in combination with the attack speed it gives and phase boots make up somewhat for the lack of mobility in comparison to wex invokers' map-hack move speed. And with wex at lvl 6 you can avoid ganks and play much riskier while also having access to chaos meteor; you can also gank fairly well.
OP why do you say for disadvantages for QE: 'fewer teamfight spells' when you list 4 spells whereas QW invoker only has 3? Is this just an oversight?
On September 20 2012 15:13 wcLLg wrote: drum on qw invoker is no longer standard. Instead, invokers (430, Yao) go phase>>wand>>force>>sheep
and duck, the super standard build is qrqwwwrw (the increase in regen allows you to win trades with almost all heros and if you start with only a set of tangoes you will most likely like the two points of quas by lvl 3).
and the forge spirit rush into max wex seems like a bad idea because it delays wex until it is more useless while not utilizing the advantages of exort (i.e. max exort sun strike, meteor, raw damage, mana pool, etc). It is also a reverse build of qw.
Also, OP your QE builds are terrible. The true forge spirits build is ereqewerqqq (allowing for earlier ghost walks, nados tho rare, meteor, deafening blast, and access to every spell) and then maxing exort before getting the third level of invoke is how the build is. Midas is also very good on this build. QE Invoker is a carry Invoker so the advantage in farm and exp it gives are very useful in combination with the attack speed it gives and phase boots make up somewhat for the lack of mobility in comparison to wex invokers' map-hack move speed. And with wex at lvl 6 you can avoid ganks and play much riskier while also having access to chaos meteor; you can also gank fairly well.
OP why do you say for disadvantages for QE: 'fewer teamfight spells' when you list 4 spells whereas QW invoker only has 3? Is this just an oversight?
QRWWWQR is the ideal build. You have Ghost Walk at level 3. But QW Invoker is very flexible, in that you can get the 2nd Q any time from level 3 to 6. I have no issues on when you get the 2nd Q. But if you're getting the 3rd Q so early, then you are playing QW Invoker wrongly.
The standard QE Build is what you suggested. Sometimes you can get away without an early Wex, and you go EREQE(ER)QQQWR. Wex opens up for Sunstrike -> Meteor -> Blast solo kills (used alot by iceiceice) though.
On September 20 2012 15:13 wcLLg wrote: drum on qw invoker is no longer standard. Instead, invokers (430, Yao) go phase>>wand>>force>>sheep
Phase->straight Force is very unforgiving on positioning and mana management. It might be the "better" build for competitive games, but Janggo/Eul's are totally fine for pub games, given how they let you play a little more relaxed (for example, Yao is basically constantly ferrying himself clarities with Phase->straight Force--it's probably *better* to not have to commit to an item like Eul's for regen, but its less tiresome to just buy Eul's in pubs because sending clarities back and forth is a pain in the ass).
Also, it's completely pointless to discuss how much Quas you get early game in a vacuum. It's 100% dependent on how much you need for your laning. In easier mid matchups against weaker opponents, you can get away with as little as 1 Quas early. Typically, you see 2-3 and it depends on who you're against how much you need--2 for easier matchups, and 3 for harder ones (IIRC Yao got 3 against QoP, for example).
On September 20 2012 15:22 DucK- wrote: QRWWWQR is the ideal build. You have Ghost Walk at level 3. But QW Invoker is very flexible, in that you can get the 2nd Q any time from level 3 to 6. I have no issues on when you get the 2nd Q. But if you're getting the 3rd Q so early, then you are playing QW Invoker wrongly.
Guess Yao is playing Invoker wrong then for getting 3rd rank Q in hard matchups.
It's situational like you said--it's not a cookie-cutter build that determines how much Quas you need earlier.
On September 20 2012 15:13 wcLLg wrote: drum on qw invoker is no longer standard. Instead, invokers (430, Yao) go phase>>wand>>force>>sheep
Phase->straight Force is very unforgiving on positioning and mana management. It might be the "better" build for competitive games, but Janggo/Eul's are totally fine for pub games, given how they let you play a little more relaxed (for example, Yao is basically constantly ferrying himself clarities with Phase->straight Force--it's probably *better* to not have to commit to an item like Eul's for regen, but its less tiresome to just buy Eul's in pubs because sending clarities back and forth is a pain in the ass).
Also, it's completely pointless to discuss how much Quas you get early game in a vacuum. It's 100% dependent on how much you need for your laning. In easier mid matchups against weaker opponents, you can get away with as little as 1 Quas early. Typically, you see 2-3 and it depends on who you're against how much you need--2 for easier matchups, and 3 for harder ones (IIRC Yao got 3 against QoP, for example).
On September 20 2012 15:22 DucK- wrote: QRWWWQR is the ideal build. You have Ghost Walk at level 3. But QW Invoker is very flexible, in that you can get the 2nd Q any time from level 3 to 6. I have no issues on when you get the 2nd Q. But if you're getting the 3rd Q so early, then you are playing QW Invoker wrongly.
Guess Yao is playing Invoker wrong then for getting 3rd rank Q in hard matchups.
It's situational like you said--it's not a cookie-cutter build that determines how much Quas you need earlier.
Yes it's flexible. But if OP is suggesting 3Q as the main build, then you know something is wrong. 3Q is indeed for a very hard lane, but very very seldom would you ever need it.
On September 20 2012 15:13 wcLLg wrote: drum on qw invoker is no longer standard. Instead, invokers (430, Yao) go phase>>wand>>force>>sheep
and duck, the super standard build is qrqwwwrw (the increase in regen allows you to win trades with almost all heros and if you start with only a set of tangoes you will most likely like the two points of quas by lvl 3).
and the forge spirit rush into max wex seems like a bad idea because it delays wex until it is more useless while not utilizing the advantages of exort (i.e. max exort sun strike, meteor, raw damage, mana pool, etc). It is also a reverse build of qw.
Also, OP your QE builds are terrible. The true forge spirits build is ereqewerqqq (allowing for earlier ghost walks, nados tho rare, meteor, deafening blast, and access to every spell) and then maxing exort before getting the third level of invoke is how the build is. Midas is also very good on this build. QE Invoker is a carry Invoker so the advantage in farm and exp it gives are very useful in combination with the attack speed it gives and phase boots make up somewhat for the lack of mobility in comparison to wex invokers' map-hack move speed. And with wex at lvl 6 you can avoid ganks and play much riskier while also having access to chaos meteor; you can also gank fairly well.
OP why do you say for disadvantages for QE: 'fewer teamfight spells' when you list 4 spells whereas QW invoker only has 3? Is this just an oversight?
Your first point was addressed by Yango, and I completely agree with him.
The QE builds I suggest are not terrible. When rushing double forge spirits, you do exactly that. If you're doing well, you don't get Wex until level 11. And if you're not rushing double forge spirits, then I even wrote this:
This build ignores the double Forge Spirits, focusing on making you hit harder and have a much more powerful Sunstrike. With this build you are flexible in when you put a point in Wex, giving you much earlier access to Ghost walk if you need it.
You can put the Wex in as early as you want, when you need access to Ghost walk. I'll edit this to make it clearer.
I disagree with Midas overall. I've only ever seen very few progames with it, and those were usually because there was a Chen or Enchantress on the opposite team that the Midas would help to counter. It delays your initial items which increase your survivability and mobility (drums, force staff).
Early Meteor is just so weak when compared to Cold snap/Ice wall/Sunstrike. Invoking it means sacrificing one of those spells. Meteor is a late game teamfight spell, not an early game ganking spell. Yes, it can work, but it's not optimal. The reason you'd rush a quick Wex is for Ghost walk and ONLY Ghost walk, since all your other spells with Wex will be very weak.
Regarding your last point: although he has more spells being used, they are less teamfight oriented. Cold snap + Sunstrike + Forge spirits are all more single-target focused spells than Tornado + EMP from QW.
That's a fair assessment then. I guess the way to do it is plan around 2 Quas, and get the 3rd if you feel you can't keep up in lane without the 3rd point. You should be able to assess the enemy laner's ability and what you need to beat them by the time you have to make the decision on that 3rd point.
On September 20 2012 15:13 wcLLg wrote: drum on qw invoker is no longer standard. Instead, invokers (430, Yao) go phase>>wand>>force>>sheep
Phase->straight Force is very unforgiving on positioning and mana management. It might be the "better" build for competitive games, but Janggo/Eul's are totally fine for pub games, given how they let you play a little more relaxed (for example, Yao is basically constantly ferrying himself clarities with Phase->straight Force--it's probably *better* to not have to commit to an item like Eul's for regen, but its less tiresome to just buy Eul's in pubs because sending clarities back and forth is a pain in the ass).
Also, it's completely pointless to discuss how much Quas you get early game in a vacuum. It's 100% dependent on how much you need for your laning. In easier mid matchups against weaker opponents, you can get away with as little as 1 Quas early. Typically, you see 2-3 and it depends on who you're against how much you need--2 for easier matchups, and 3 for harder ones (IIRC Yao got 3 against QoP, for example).
On September 20 2012 15:22 DucK- wrote: QRWWWQR is the ideal build. You have Ghost Walk at level 3. But QW Invoker is very flexible, in that you can get the 2nd Q any time from level 3 to 6. I have no issues on when you get the 2nd Q. But if you're getting the 3rd Q so early, then you are playing QW Invoker wrongly.
Guess Yao is playing Invoker wrong then for getting 3rd rank Q in hard matchups.
It's situational like you said--it's not a cookie-cutter build that determines how much Quas you need earlier.
Yes it's flexible. But if OP is suggesting 3Q as the main build, then you know something is wrong. 3Q is indeed for a very hard lane, but very very seldom would you ever need it.
It's sort of less clear-cut when you need the 3rd point Quas in pub games. In pro games, high level Invokers know the level of ability of their opponents, so the decision to get 3Q is more or less dictated by matchup. In pub games, you could get a "bad" matchup, but against an opponent that's way worse than you--meaning you could still get away with 2Q even though you'd see 3 for that matchup in a pro game.
On September 20 2012 15:41 TheYango wrote: It's sort of less clear-cut when you need the 3rd point Quas in pub games. In pro games, high level Invokers know the level of ability of their opponents, so the decision to get 3Q is more or less dictated by matchup. In pub games, you could get a "bad" matchup, but against an opponent that's way worse than you--meaning you could still get away with 2Q even though you'd see 3 for that matchup in a pro game.
I will basically alter it to say 'use your judgement'.
On September 20 2012 15:13 wcLLg wrote: drum on qw invoker is no longer standard. Instead, invokers (430, Yao) go phase>>wand>>force>>sheep
and duck, the super standard build is qrqwwwrw (the increase in regen allows you to win trades with almost all heros and if you start with only a set of tangoes you will most likely like the two points of quas by lvl 3).
and the forge spirit rush into max wex seems like a bad idea because it delays wex until it is more useless while not utilizing the advantages of exort (i.e. max exort sun strike, meteor, raw damage, mana pool, etc). It is also a reverse build of qw.
Also, OP your QE builds are terrible. The true forge spirits build is ereqewerqqq (allowing for earlier ghost walks, nados tho rare, meteor, deafening blast, and access to every spell) and then maxing exort before getting the third level of invoke is how the build is. Midas is also very good on this build. QE Invoker is a carry Invoker so the advantage in farm and exp it gives are very useful in combination with the attack speed it gives and phase boots make up somewhat for the lack of mobility in comparison to wex invokers' map-hack move speed. And with wex at lvl 6 you can avoid ganks and play much riskier while also having access to chaos meteor; you can also gank fairly well.
OP why do you say for disadvantages for QE: 'fewer teamfight spells' when you list 4 spells whereas QW invoker only has 3? Is this just an oversight?
QRWWWQR is the ideal build. You have Ghost Walk at level 3. But QW Invoker is very flexible, in that you can get the 2nd Q any time from level 3 to 6. I have no issues on when you get the 2nd Q. But if you're getting the 3rd Q so early, then you are playing QW Invoker wrongly.
The standard QE Build is what you suggested. Sometimes you can get away without an early Wex, and you go EREQE(ER)QQQWR. Wex opens up for Sunstrike -> Meteor -> Blast solo kills (used alot by iceiceice) though.
funny how iceiceice does 3 quas builds too. simply because cold snap is so good early game you want to have at least 3 levels in quas. even bulba recomends it.
Nice guide, a really good introduction to Invoker. What I think you could add is a discussion revolving when to get E as QW and W as QE and why that timing will change. For example, as a QE you really don't wanna get W before lvl 10 as stated, unless you have to do some weirdass hardlane-laning where you would want it for ghost walk.
Same goes with QW, a highQlevel deafening blast really is great against some of those melee rightclickers!
These are just examples and I'm sure you have other and better ones.
Love to see you put down the effort! <3
Edit: Almost forgot; OMG! Happy birthday!
Edit 2: Don't mind the discussion about QRW. It's really not as good as QRQ or as said QRQQ. People are just used to playing dota like a sologame in pubs, hence they like to be able to invis.
I recently started playing invoker a lot, and I found that as a new player, invoking off-spells was easier by pressing things like EQE (forge spirits), QWQ (ghost walk), as opposed to QEE or WQQ. It just felt better than double tapping a key, it seemed faster/more precise to me. I don't know if other people feel the same way, but I think it's a decent way to learn Invoker's spells.
20/09/2012 - Added a short ‘when to pick/when to not pick Invoker’ section. Added a few optional/rejected items (Euls, Urn, Midas etc). Added discussion on how many Q to get for QW build, as well as when to get the 1 point of E as QW or W as QE. Put slightly more emphasis on Deafening Blast.
Good guide, i agree with pretty much everything ! Even for QE Invoker, i like to start with 1 heal salve, 1 gg branch, 1 blade of attack, i like my phase boots early to have rune control / positioning, but the build proposed is good too, depends if you can or cannot farm mid and need hp regen. I saw people complaining about high level in Q early, maybe it doesn't scale well but seriously when you are solo mid without having a bottle, how do you regen without going back to base, answer : QUAS. About QW Invoker, you didn't mention Alacrity, it's an amazing spell to put on your carry or even on yourself ! Also, don't forget to use those drums :D !
The QE builds I suggest are not terrible. When rushing double forge spirits, you do exactly that. If you're doing well, you don't get Wex until level 11. And if you're not rushing double forge spirits, then I even wrote this:
This build ignores the double Forge Spirits, focusing on making you hit harder and have a much more powerful Sunstrike. With this build you are flexible in when you put a point in Wex, giving you much earlier access to Ghost walk if you need it.
You can put the Wex in as early as you want, when you need access to Ghost walk. I'll edit this to make it clearer.
I disagree with Midas overall. I've only ever seen very few progames with it, and those were usually because there was a Chen or Enchantress on the opposite team that the Midas would help to counter. It delays your initial items which increase your survivability and mobility (drums, force staff).
Early Meteor is just so weak when compared to Cold snap/Ice wall/Sunstrike. Invoking it means sacrificing one of those spells. Meteor is a late game teamfight spell, not an early game ganking spell. Yes, it can work, but it's not optimal. The reason you'd rush a quick Wex is for Ghost walk and ONLY Ghost walk, since all your other spells with Wex will be very weak.
Regarding your last point: although he has more spells being used, they are less teamfight oriented. Cold snap + Sunstrike + Forge spirits are all more single-target focused spells than Tornado + EMP from QW.
http://www.twitch.tv/firebolt145/b/332752367 Just watched this game of yours and saw you died to a solo lvl 6 or 7 storm spirit. If you had a single point of wex you would have lived. So as far as getting it when you need 'access' to it is completely beyond all practical measure. Get it at 6.
Midas may not be seen in progames, but neither are drums or exort invoker for the most part.
Having ACCESS to meteor is a huge plus and is useful in counter ganks.
The 'fewer teamfight spells' is still inaccurate and you should change the wording because you technically have more teamfight spells taking into account meteor which you forgo. And no, a quick wex is not ONLY for Ghost walk...it's also for tornado and meteor which both have their uses even at one lvl of wex. Thanks for you time.
The QE builds I suggest are not terrible. When rushing double forge spirits, you do exactly that. If you're doing well, you don't get Wex until level 11. And if you're not rushing double forge spirits, then I even wrote this:
This build ignores the double Forge Spirits, focusing on making you hit harder and have a much more powerful Sunstrike. With this build you are flexible in when you put a point in Wex, giving you much earlier access to Ghost walk if you need it.
You can put the Wex in as early as you want, when you need access to Ghost walk. I'll edit this to make it clearer.
I disagree with Midas overall. I've only ever seen very few progames with it, and those were usually because there was a Chen or Enchantress on the opposite team that the Midas would help to counter. It delays your initial items which increase your survivability and mobility (drums, force staff).
Early Meteor is just so weak when compared to Cold snap/Ice wall/Sunstrike. Invoking it means sacrificing one of those spells. Meteor is a late game teamfight spell, not an early game ganking spell. Yes, it can work, but it's not optimal. The reason you'd rush a quick Wex is for Ghost walk and ONLY Ghost walk, since all your other spells with Wex will be very weak.
Regarding your last point: although he has more spells being used, they are less teamfight oriented. Cold snap + Sunstrike + Forge spirits are all more single-target focused spells than Tornado + EMP from QW.
http://www.twitch.tv/firebolt145/b/332752367 Just watched this game of yours and saw you died to a solo lvl 6 or 7 storm spirit. If you had a single point of wex you would have lived. So as far as getting it when you need 'access' to it is completely beyond all practical measure. Get it at 6.
Midas may not be seen in progames, but neither are drums or exort invoker for the most part.
Having ACCESS to meteor is a huge plus and is useful in counter ganks.
The 'fewer teamfight spells' is still inaccurate and you should change the wording because you technically have more teamfight spells taking into account meteor which you forgo. And no, a quick wex is not ONLY for Ghost walk...it's also for tornado and meteor which both have their uses even at one lvl of wex. Thanks for you time.
You watch one game and you conclude that an early point in Wex is important. I screwed up against the Storm Spirit, I was far too aggressive against his DD rune. Doctor Chopper is also a pretty good Storm player and he immediately took advantage of my bad positioning and killed me. Feel free to watch the many other games where I don't die this early.
Drums or exort Invoker in progames? Have you not been watching any games with Dendi or Pajkatt playing Invoker?
I stand by my 'fewer teamfight spells' because you should NOT be using meteor or tornado in early teamfights. Your Invoke has a 22, 17 and 12 second cooldown before level 17 or Aghanims, and if you're choosing to spend that cooldown on a small Tornado or Chaos Meteor with 1 in Wex instead of a Forge Spirit, Cold Snap, Ice wall or Sunstrike, you're making the wrong choice. Ghost walk is the only Wex spell that you should be using before you have at least 2+ points in Wex.
The QE builds I suggest are not terrible. When rushing double forge spirits, you do exactly that. If you're doing well, you don't get Wex until level 11. And if you're not rushing double forge spirits, then I even wrote this:
This build ignores the double Forge Spirits, focusing on making you hit harder and have a much more powerful Sunstrike. With this build you are flexible in when you put a point in Wex, giving you much earlier access to Ghost walk if you need it.
You can put the Wex in as early as you want, when you need access to Ghost walk. I'll edit this to make it clearer.
I disagree with Midas overall. I've only ever seen very few progames with it, and those were usually because there was a Chen or Enchantress on the opposite team that the Midas would help to counter. It delays your initial items which increase your survivability and mobility (drums, force staff).
Early Meteor is just so weak when compared to Cold snap/Ice wall/Sunstrike. Invoking it means sacrificing one of those spells. Meteor is a late game teamfight spell, not an early game ganking spell. Yes, it can work, but it's not optimal. The reason you'd rush a quick Wex is for Ghost walk and ONLY Ghost walk, since all your other spells with Wex will be very weak.
Regarding your last point: although he has more spells being used, they are less teamfight oriented. Cold snap + Sunstrike + Forge spirits are all more single-target focused spells than Tornado + EMP from QW.
http://www.twitch.tv/firebolt145/b/332752367 Just watched this game of yours and saw you died to a solo lvl 6 or 7 storm spirit. If you had a single point of wex you would have lived. So as far as getting it when you need 'access' to it is completely beyond all practical measure. Get it at 6.
Midas may not be seen in progames, but neither are drums or exort invoker for the most part.
Having ACCESS to meteor is a huge plus and is useful in counter ganks.
The 'fewer teamfight spells' is still inaccurate and you should change the wording because you technically have more teamfight spells taking into account meteor which you forgo. And no, a quick wex is not ONLY for Ghost walk...it's also for tornado and meteor which both have their uses even at one lvl of wex. Thanks for you time.
You watch one game and you conclude that an early point in Wex is important. I screwed up against the Storm Spirit, I was far too aggressive against his DD rune. Doctor Chopper is also a pretty good Storm player and he immediately took advantage of my bad positioning and killed me. Feel free to watch the many other games where I don't die this early.
Drums or exort Invoker in progames? Have you not been watching any games with Dendi or Pajkatt playing Invoker?
I stand by my 'fewer teamfight spells' because you should NOT be using meteor or tornado in early teamfights. Your Invoke has a 22, 17 and 12 second cooldown before level 17 or Aghanims, and if you're choosing to spend that cooldown on a small Tornado or Chaos Meteor with 1 in Wex instead of a Forge Spirit, Cold Snap, Ice wall or Sunstrike, you're making the wrong choice. Ghost walk is the only Wex spell that you should be using before you have at least 2+ points in Wex.
Thank you for your feedback.
Here is what you got to do bud: go to the international tab in dota 2 and find a game with a drums invoker...it was rare. I haven't looked very hard but only Jeyo went drums. Therefore it is not core. And if you think meteor is not a good spell with only 1 lvl of wex you clearly don't know how to use it. Good luck in low priority or where ever you happen to play.
What I say stands. If you had gotten one level of wex at 6 you would have lived. I only needed to watch one game to see the gaping flaw in your fail build which gets forge spirits at lvl 10 instead of 11.
And you are mistaken again. I said there are applications where nado is useful even at one level of wex. I almost never use nado except to set up meteor or in the late game. It debuffs runes among other things (and this is not in your guide?) and can disable tps along with cold snap and deafening blast. Would you like to see a replay where Ferrari_430 uses this build to great effectiveness? He is the inventor of the QW Invoker after all. I think he knows how to play the hero.
And I don't know if you were aware of how hard the Chinese dominated the International, but they did. And they don't go drums on invoker anymore. If it is still 'core' it's because you still belong to the EU/NA meta which is still behind the Chinese meta like it always has been and always will be.
The QE builds I suggest are not terrible. When rushing double forge spirits, you do exactly that. If you're doing well, you don't get Wex until level 11. And if you're not rushing double forge spirits, then I even wrote this:
This build ignores the double Forge Spirits, focusing on making you hit harder and have a much more powerful Sunstrike. With this build you are flexible in when you put a point in Wex, giving you much earlier access to Ghost walk if you need it.
You can put the Wex in as early as you want, when you need access to Ghost walk. I'll edit this to make it clearer.
I disagree with Midas overall. I've only ever seen very few progames with it, and those were usually because there was a Chen or Enchantress on the opposite team that the Midas would help to counter. It delays your initial items which increase your survivability and mobility (drums, force staff).
Early Meteor is just so weak when compared to Cold snap/Ice wall/Sunstrike. Invoking it means sacrificing one of those spells. Meteor is a late game teamfight spell, not an early game ganking spell. Yes, it can work, but it's not optimal. The reason you'd rush a quick Wex is for Ghost walk and ONLY Ghost walk, since all your other spells with Wex will be very weak.
Regarding your last point: although he has more spells being used, they are less teamfight oriented. Cold snap + Sunstrike + Forge spirits are all more single-target focused spells than Tornado + EMP from QW.
http://www.twitch.tv/firebolt145/b/332752367 Just watched this game of yours and saw you died to a solo lvl 6 or 7 storm spirit. If you had a single point of wex you would have lived. So as far as getting it when you need 'access' to it is completely beyond all practical measure. Get it at 6.
Midas may not be seen in progames, but neither are drums or exort invoker for the most part.
Having ACCESS to meteor is a huge plus and is useful in counter ganks.
The 'fewer teamfight spells' is still inaccurate and you should change the wording because you technically have more teamfight spells taking into account meteor which you forgo. And no, a quick wex is not ONLY for Ghost walk...it's also for tornado and meteor which both have their uses even at one lvl of wex. Thanks for you time.
You watch one game and you conclude that an early point in Wex is important. I screwed up against the Storm Spirit, I was far too aggressive against his DD rune. Doctor Chopper is also a pretty good Storm player and he immediately took advantage of my bad positioning and killed me. Feel free to watch the many other games where I don't die this early.
Drums or exort Invoker in progames? Have you not been watching any games with Dendi or Pajkatt playing Invoker?
I stand by my 'fewer teamfight spells' because you should NOT be using meteor or tornado in early teamfights. Your Invoke has a 22, 17 and 12 second cooldown before level 17 or Aghanims, and if you're choosing to spend that cooldown on a small Tornado or Chaos Meteor with 1 in Wex instead of a Forge Spirit, Cold Snap, Ice wall or Sunstrike, you're making the wrong choice. Ghost walk is the only Wex spell that you should be using before you have at least 2+ points in Wex.
Thank you for your feedback.
Here is what you got to do bud: go to the international tab in dota 2 and find a game with a drums invoker...it was rare. I haven't looked very hard but only Jeyo went drums. Therefore it is not core. And if you think meteor is not a good spell with only 1 lvl of wex you clearly don't know how to use it. Good luck in low priority or where ever you happen to play.
What I say stands. If you had gotten one level of wex at 6 you would have lived. I only needed to watch one game to see the gaping flaw in your fail build which gets forge spirits at lvl 10 instead of 11.
And you are mistaken again. I said there are applications where nado is useful even at one level of wex. I almost never use nado except to set up meteor or in the late game. It debuffs runes among other things (and this is not in your guide?) and can disable tps along with cold snap and deafening blast. Would you like to see a replay where Ferrari_430 uses this build to great effectiveness? He is the inventor of the QW Invoker after all. I think he knows how to play the hero.
And I don't know if you were aware of how hard the Chinese dominated the International, but they did. And they don't go drums on invoker anymore. If it is still 'core' it's because you still belong to the EU/NA meta which is still behind the Chinese meta like it always has been and always will be.
I am writing a guide for people that play Invoker in MM or inhouses etc, and aren't in the International with a full pro team backing them. For those people, they will benefit greatly from the stats portion alone of drums, let alone the movespeed/attackspeed bonuses.
Compared to the usefulness of a Cold snap or Ice wall at level 7 or whatever, a Chaos meteor is usually useless. By invoking it you have used your 1 spell per 17 seconds on a tiny AoE nuke.
I have even written that if people desperately want to get access to Ghost walk, they are free to put a point in Wex as early as they want. I still think it's better to rush that double Forge spirits, because that's when the QE Invoker starts to be able to roam easily and output ridiculous amounts of damage.
It doesn't matter if it can stop TP's or whatever, you are still using up your one spell every 17 seconds to use a substrength spell compared to your QE spells. I am aware it debuffs runes (are you seriously going to call me out on not including that?)
Get off your high horse please, your tone is pretty annoying.
edit: I have decided to take your advise more seriously and ignore the condescension throughout. I have left my original dual forge spirit rush build untouched but edited my second suggested QE build to follow your advice. There will be times when an early chaos meteor can completely obliterate the opponents (if your team has a blackhole or is particularly focused on teamfights), though I'd argue this is more for high level inhouse play rather than random MMing.
@wcllg As I said on the last page, going straight force staff demands very good positioning/reactions (lack of ms and hp) that cannot be expected of a typical pub player. If you are Yao or 430, straight force is better, but theres nothing wrong with janggo in pubs.
If you go force staff your mobility is greater. End of discussion. There is no benefit in going drums that force won't give you in heaps and bounds. Plus, after you get force you get sheep which gives more stats than drums. If you get drums first you delay force and your ganking potential is much hindered and your survivability as well. The active of force more than makes up for strength you would gain from drums which mostly go to waste when you are aiming at dominating the mid game...not tanking right clicks.
In the last StarLadder 3 game played moments ago, EG 007 RC went phase, wand, force, ulti orb and it was gg. This is now the standard build for the time being.
On September 21 2012 04:16 wcLLg wrote: If you go force staff your mobility is greater. End of discussion. There is no benefit in going drums that force won't give you in heaps and bounds. Plus, after you get force you get sheep which gives more stats than drums. If you get drums first you delay force and your ganking potential is much hindered and your survivability as well. The active of force more than makes up for strength you would gain from drums which mostly go to waste when you are aiming at dominating the mid game...not tanking right clicks.
In the last StarLadder 3 game played moments ago, EG 007 RC went phase, wand, force, ulti orb and it was gg. This is now the standard build for the time being.
If you consider yourself super high level then feel free to skip them and go straight for force. I won't shout at you. But for people reading this guide, I'll continue to tell them to get drums.
You'll probably lambast me even more when I tell you I always get Aghanims before sheep. Fortunately I'm not telling people to do that in this guide.
Well, aghs before sheep can work (if you get off to a bad start or something)...but, if you get it too early it is a complete waste of gold. Just my .02. If people didn't try different things we would all be hunting Lions and eating berries.
And, I must say that since this guide is directed at pubs, why would you reject Midas when in pubs it is effective and considering a 5-6 minute Midas is doable. Never mind me...
Aghs before sheep is better for QE Invoker because you still have a use for the lower-ranked W-based spells. For QW its less useful because underleveled E-based spells (Sun Strike, Chaos Meteor) aren't that outstanding compared to Hex.
People that are supposed to try new things and "innovate the metagame" are probally not basing their play on a TeamLiquid strategy guide. People need to be less picky about this kind of stuff when it's purpose is mostly to show how a hero that they don't know works in broad terms. Things that would make you whine about in a QQ thread are issues. So many of the complaints you see in guides are basically meaningless, things that you wouldn't even notice in a pub game and only exist to create a 2 page discussion on the General thread about wether Phases or Threads are better for X hero.
People will put a little bit off their personal touch in guides because quite often they play the hero that way. If Aui wrote a guide recommending Maelstrom on Sylla I wouldn't jump on his throat because most pro players would go for Radiance on the same situation. If a player starts off going Maelstrom because he read that guide and learns to play that way, it's fine. It's a good enough build for that purpose (which should be the purpose of a guide). After he knows more about the hero he will probally try out diferent things and decide for himself what he feels is better for his play style.
A good guide lasts for years, it doesn't have to change each time a new way to play the hero is popular. It just covers the basics and gives you enough information not to do something completelly stupid. "That was the right way to play a week ago, now the pros are doing it this way." is a shitty complaing for this kind of stuff.
On September 21 2012 04:45 SKC wrote: People that are supposed to try new things and "innovate the metagame" are probally not basing their play on a TeamLiquid strategy guide. People need to be less picky about this kind of stuff when it's purpose is mostly to show how a hero that they don't know works in broad terms. Things that would make you whine about in a QQ thread are issues. So many of the complaints you see in guides are basically meaningless, things that you wouldn't even notice in a pub game and only exist to create a 2 page discussion on the General thread about wether Phases or Threads are better for X hero.
People will put a little bit off their personal touch in guides because quite often they play the hero that way. If Aui wrote a guide recommending Maelstrom on Sylla I wouldn't jump on his throat because most pro players would go for Radiance on the same situation. If a player starts off going Maelstrom because he read that guide and learns to play that way, it's fine. It's a good enough build for that purpose (which should be the purpose of a guide). After he knows more about the hero he will probally try out diferent things and decide for himself what he feels is better for his play style.
A good guide lasts for years, it doesn't have to change each time a new way to play the hero is popular. It just covers the basics and gives you enough information not to do something completelly stupid. "That was the right way to play a week ago, now the pros are doing it this way." is a shitty complaing for this kind of stuff.
Beautifully put, quoted you in the FAQ. Much appreciated.
On September 21 2012 04:45 SKC wrote: People that are supposed to try new things and "innovate the metagame" are probally not basing their play on a TeamLiquid strategy guide. People need to be less picky about this kind of stuff when it's purpose is mostly to show how a hero that they don't know works in broad terms. Things that would make you whine about in a QQ thread are issues. So many of the complaints you see in guides are basically meaningless, things that you wouldn't even notice in a pub game and only exist to create a 2 page discussion on the General thread about wether Phases or Threads are better for X hero.
People will put a little bit off their personal touch in guides because quite often they play the hero that way. If Aui wrote a guide recommending Maelstrom on Sylla I wouldn't jump on his throat because most pro players would go for Radiance on the same situation. If a player starts off going Maelstrom because he read that guide and learns to play that way, it's fine. It's a good enough build for that purpose (which should be the purpose of a guide). After he knows more about the hero he will probally try out diferent things and decide for himself what he feels is better for his play style.
A good guide lasts for years, it doesn't have to change each time a new way to play the hero is popular. It just covers the basics and gives you enough information not to do something completelly stupid. "That was the right way to play a week ago, now the pros are doing it this way." is a shitty complaing for this kind of stuff.
Nice guide. Pretty much exactly how I play my Invoker as well (altough I'm obviously not a progamer, so those words means little). But as QE invoker, I notice you take sunstrike first, while I always get 2 points in Quas. Obviously an earlier sunstrike will let you help out the sidelanes, but very rarely do the sidelanes get a chance to gank someone that early (obviously there are exceptions), while Quas will let you dominate your lane a lot easier with high regen (you can easily trade hits, go back and regen for a few seconds, and come back to trade hits again) and coldsnap, which being low on manacost lets you throw it at him almost whenever you see fit. While it might not get you a kill, it should let you get close to freefarm against most enemy mid heroes.
On September 23 2012 21:38 Excludos wrote: Nice guide. Pretty much exactly how I play my Invoker as well (altough I'm obviously not a progamer, so those words means little). But as QE invoker, I notice you take sunstrike first, while I always get 2 points in Quas. Obviously an earlier sunstrike will let you help out the sidelanes, but very rarely do the sidelanes get a chance to gank someone that early (obviously there are exceptions), while Quas will let you dominate your lane a lot easier with high regen (you can easily trade hits, go back and regen for a few seconds, and come back to trade hits again) and coldsnap, which being low on manacost lets you throw it at him almost whenever you see fit. While it might not get you a kill, it should let you get close to freefarm against most enemy mid heroes.
Any thoughts?
This is definitely a valid way of approaching it. I personally prefer going exort first because I find that a sunstrike at level 2 is much more likely to nab a kill on the sidelanes than cold snap in your own lane. I also find that the exort points already allow me to dominate my lane anyway with superior attack damage, but winning the lane with superior regen instead will certainly work too.
The other benefit of doing this your way is that you delay your commitment to QW or QE until level 4, giving you time to judge the situation. If you're freefarming mid without taking any flak, go QE. If the enemy team constantly have 1 or 2 supports missing hanging around mid lane trying to gank you, go QW for the extra survivability/mobility.
I will probably add this to my guide the next time I update it ^^
On September 21 2012 04:43 TheYango wrote: Aghs before sheep is better for QE Invoker because you still have a use for the lower-ranked W-based spells. For QW its less useful because underleveled E-based spells (Sun Strike, Chaos Meteor) aren't that outstanding compared to Hex.
dunno. imo QW needs more spells since you want to use tornado/emp combo,snap,wall,blast atleast. while as QE you can precast spirits and then use snap,ss/meteor,wall infight.
also at the time i get aghs on QW the E spells should be ~ mid lvl already so they are worth casting aswell.
also my build on QW is quite straight forward: phase stick force drums aghs. rarely switch up unless we NEED a sheep, 3+ more spells in a fight > sheep in general. earlier aghs is quite useless since you need lvl4 invoke for it to really do its thing.
but in the end the beauty of invoker is that you can adapt so much and have so many options.
I'd like to throw a pitch for an alternative (and very fun) way of playing the exort Invoker - maxing exort as early as possible. The basic skill combo is Sunstrike->Meteor->Deafning Blast, I normally set it up by rushing an Eul's but in some teams it won't be necessary. By the time Exort is maxed out you can kill anyone with less than 900 hp and when Quas is maxed out as well you can kill anyone with less than 1300 hp (this is ignoring your auto attacks, which will add some additional damage). This is as powerful as a shotgun, but you can start killing people as early as 10 minutes into the game if you farm decently. Of course you can still throw the standard Tornado/Meteor/Deafening combo during 5-man fights and use Euls as a regular disable. Euls will also solve all your mana problems and give some much needed movement speed. I'm not quite sure yet how forgiving the the Euls/Deafening combo is, but it's definitely possible to land it so that they can't blink away.
Another powerful early game combo for an Exort Invoker is Meteor/Cold Snap. Meteor will trigger Cold Snap making it very hard to walk out of the Meteor. Often this will net you a sure surprise kill at level 7 (so you can Invoke Sunstrike after casting the combo) against non-blinkers.
One thing I'd like to hear/talk more about is the most efficient way to play against a dual lane. When picking Invoker in very high public cm:s I often find myself up against something like lesh/crix or lesh/sd which really shuts down Invoker's early game and I feel that Invoker is a very momentum based hero that lose much of his use when dominated during early game.
On September 23 2012 23:51 ZerG~LegenD wrote: I'd like to throw a pitch for an alternative (and very fun) way of playing the exort Invoker - maxing exort as early as possible. The basic skill combo is Sunstrike->Meteor->Deafning Blast, I normally set it up by rushing an Eul's but in some teams it won't be necessary. By the time Exort is maxed out you can kill anyone with less than 900 hp and when Quas is maxed out as well you can kill anyone with less than 1300 hp. This is as powerful as a shotgun, but you can start killing people as early as 10 minutes into the game if you farm decently. Of course you can still throw the standard Tornado/Meteor/Deafening combo during 5-man fights and use Euls as a regular disable. Euls will also solve all your mana problems and give some much needed movement speed. I'm not quite sure yet how forgiving the the Euls/Deafening combo is, but it's definitely possible to land it so that they can't blink away.
Another powerful early game combo for an Exort Invoker is Meteor/Cold Snap. Meteor will trigger Cold Snap making it very hard to walk out of the Meteor. Often this will net you a sure surprise kill at level 7 (so you can Invoke Sunstrike after casting the combo) against non-blinkers.
One thing I'd like to hear/talk more about is the most efficient way to play against a dual lane. When picking Invoker in very high public cm:s I often find myself up against something like lesh/crix or lesh/sd which really shuts down Invoker's early game and I feel that Invoker is a very momentum based hero that lose much of his use when dominated during early game.
Just regarding the first point, I have mentioned that build in the QE section, as the 'second' QE build.
Regarding the last point, focus on getting more Quas and an earlier point in Wex for Ghost walk. If these options are still not sufficient to allow you to stay in XP range at the very least, the best thing to do is to ask for a lane switch. Considering you are typically the team's #2 hero, the team should definitely take this into consideration and try to make way for you. edit: this is more focused on QE. If you're going QW (and you should be against a dual mid) then you should be fine. Just stay back and safe and hope your teammates can win the other lanes.
On September 23 2012 23:51 ZerG~LegenD wrote: One thing I'd like to hear/talk more about is the most efficient way to play against a dual lane. When picking Invoker in very high public cm:s I often find myself up against something like lesh/crix or lesh/sd which really shuts down Invoker's early game and I feel that Invoker is a very momentum based hero that lose much of his use when dominated during early game.
Are you going mid against a dual lane? You basically have to go qw invoker and just get levels as best you can without dying, like all 2v1 lanes. If you are qw invoker (qe will just die over and over) you aren't even focused on the super early game, so you just get levels and your team should be winning the other lanes with the numbers advantage.
I do not feel it deserves being called 'core', but it certainly is a very strong Optional item. For QE Invokers I feel it's a little unnecessary and they should just rush getting their Sheepstick/Aghanim's.
On September 24 2012 01:38 Gyro_SC2 wrote: I do not feel it deserves being called 'core', but it certainly is a very strong Optional item. For QE Invokers I feel it's a little unnecessary and they should just rush getting their Sheepstick/Aghanim's.
I will continue to call it core for the majority of people that will be needing an Invoker guide. I will probably add a note in my next update about skipping it if you're very confident though, given the amount of feedback here about it.
On September 21 2012 04:16 wcLLg wrote: If you go force staff your mobility is greater. End of discussion. There is no benefit in going drums that force won't give you in heaps and bounds. Plus, after you get force you get sheep which gives more stats than drums. If you get drums first you delay force and your ganking potential is much hindered and your survivability as well. The active of force more than makes up for strength you would gain from drums which mostly go to waste when you are aiming at dominating the mid game...not tanking right clicks.
In the last StarLadder 3 game played moments ago, EG 007 RC went phase, wand, force, ulti orb and it was gg. This is now the standard build for the time being.
Managing your mana + trying to ensure you aren't an idiot with your positioning is pretty difficult for some semi-pros let alone a pub. It's better to get Drums/Euls as a core when you first start playing Invoker since the constant MS allows you to re-position easier. Forcestaff rush is only better if you're just at a level where you can actually manage your mana pool/positioning/etc. with minimal HP, of which pretty much no one on this board is at except maybe aui/blitz/mikey who rarely post here.
In any semi-decent game Invoker is a primary target. You not going Drums is going to hurt you big time unless you're really on top of your game the entire time. And seriously, no one trys that hard in pubs because the game isn't fun at that point.
Thoughts on tranquil boots for QE build? QE Invoker loses to QW in str and agi gain as well as move speed. Tranquil boots seem to be a good cheap way to fix that.
Also +1 to going Quas first for QE. Cold snap at level 2 is great for lane control and there's the added bonus of the enemy team not knowing whether you're going QE or QW at the start.
On September 26 2012 23:14 Kishin2 wrote: Thoughts on tranquil boots for QE build? QE Invoker loses to QW in str and agi gain as well as move speed. Tranquil boots seem to be a good cheap way to fix that.
Also +1 to going Quas first for QE. Cold snap at level 2 is great for lane control and there's the added bonus of the enemy team not knowing whether you're going QE or QW at the start.
QE only loses to QW in agi and movespeed. The dual Forge spirit rush build for QE in fact has 4 points in Q by level 10 while QW has a maximum of 3 in Q, meaning QE has more str and more regen. As such, tranquil boots is just unnecessary. And although tranquil boots give you some extra movespeed on paper, they don't give it to you when you need it most since they revert back to normal boots after being hit a few times in fights.
Definitely agree with the Quas first being an option for QE, I'll make a little note of that whenever I update it next.
i didn't see this in your guide, This is dendi essentially so what a great invoke can do once you have all the spells memorized and a solid rotation figured out. :D
On September 26 2012 23:39 doner0 wrote: i didn't see this in your guide, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE9ecc0eQC0 This is dendi essentially so what a great invoke can do once you have all the spells memorized and a solid rotation figured out. :D
He did that in wtf mode (no cooldown on spell, no mana cost), you can't spam all your spell like that even with aghanim . But yeah better know all the spells with invo ^^
On September 20 2012 21:38 Meta wrote: I recently started playing invoker a lot, and I found that as a new player, invoking off-spells was easier by pressing things like EQE (forge spirits), QWQ (ghost walk), as opposed to QEE or WQQ. It just felt better than double tapping a key, it seemed faster/more precise to me. I don't know if other people feel the same way, but I think it's a decent way to learn Invoker's spells.
This is actually kinda cool. I might start doing this to make my invokes easier to remember in my mind. QQQ WWW EEE QWE are all easy to remember. EQE for forge, EWE for meteor, QWQ for ghost, QEQ for ice, WQW for tornado, WEW for alacrity. Very interesting.
Yeah when I first started playing Invoker, I invoked skills with QWQR, EWER, WQWR etc. Then for some reason when I became really comfortable with the hero I reverted back to QQWR etc.
The QE builds I suggest are not terrible. When rushing double forge spirits, you do exactly that. If you're doing well, you don't get Wex until level 11. And if you're not rushing double forge spirits, then I even wrote this:
This build ignores the double Forge Spirits, focusing on making you hit harder and have a much more powerful Sunstrike. With this build you are flexible in when you put a point in Wex, giving you much earlier access to Ghost walk if you need it.
You can put the Wex in as early as you want, when you need access to Ghost walk. I'll edit this to make it clearer.
I disagree with Midas overall. I've only ever seen very few progames with it, and those were usually because there was a Chen or Enchantress on the opposite team that the Midas would help to counter. It delays your initial items which increase your survivability and mobility (drums, force staff).
Early Meteor is just so weak when compared to Cold snap/Ice wall/Sunstrike. Invoking it means sacrificing one of those spells. Meteor is a late game teamfight spell, not an early game ganking spell. Yes, it can work, but it's not optimal. The reason you'd rush a quick Wex is for Ghost walk and ONLY Ghost walk, since all your other spells with Wex will be very weak.
Regarding your last point: although he has more spells being used, they are less teamfight oriented. Cold snap + Sunstrike + Forge spirits are all more single-target focused spells than Tornado + EMP from QW.
http://www.twitch.tv/firebolt145/b/332752367 Just watched this game of yours and saw you died to a solo lvl 6 or 7 storm spirit. If you had a single point of wex you would have lived. So as far as getting it when you need 'access' to it is completely beyond all practical measure. Get it at 6.
Midas may not be seen in progames, but neither are drums or exort invoker for the most part.
Having ACCESS to meteor is a huge plus and is useful in counter ganks.
The 'fewer teamfight spells' is still inaccurate and you should change the wording because you technically have more teamfight spells taking into account meteor which you forgo. And no, a quick wex is not ONLY for Ghost walk...it's also for tornado and meteor which both have their uses even at one lvl of wex. Thanks for you time.
You watch one game and you conclude that an early point in Wex is important. I screwed up against the Storm Spirit, I was far too aggressive against his DD rune. Doctor Chopper is also a pretty good Storm player and he immediately took advantage of my bad positioning and killed me. Feel free to watch the many other games where I don't die this early.
Drums or exort Invoker in progames? Have you not been watching any games with Dendi or Pajkatt playing Invoker?
I stand by my 'fewer teamfight spells' because you should NOT be using meteor or tornado in early teamfights. Your Invoke has a 22, 17 and 12 second cooldown before level 17 or Aghanims, and if you're choosing to spend that cooldown on a small Tornado or Chaos Meteor with 1 in Wex instead of a Forge Spirit, Cold Snap, Ice wall or Sunstrike, you're making the wrong choice. Ghost walk is the only Wex spell that you should be using before you have at least 2+ points in Wex.
Thank you for your feedback.
Here is what you got to do bud: go to the international tab in dota 2 and find a game with a drums invoker...it was rare. I haven't looked very hard but only Jeyo went drums. Therefore it is not core. And if you think meteor is not a good spell with only 1 lvl of wex you clearly don't know how to use it. Good luck in low priority or where ever you happen to play.
What I say stands. If you had gotten one level of wex at 6 you would have lived. I only needed to watch one game to see the gaping flaw in your fail build which gets forge spirits at lvl 10 instead of 11.
And you are mistaken again. I said there are applications where nado is useful even at one level of wex. I almost never use nado except to set up meteor or in the late game. It debuffs runes among other things (and this is not in your guide?) and can disable tps along with cold snap and deafening blast. Would you like to see a replay where Ferrari_430 uses this build to great effectiveness? He is the inventor of the QW Invoker after all. I think he knows how to play the hero.
And I don't know if you were aware of how hard the Chinese dominated the International, but they did. And they don't go drums on invoker anymore. If it is still 'core' it's because you still belong to the EU/NA meta which is still behind the Chinese meta like it always has been and always will be.
it's interesting to me that you would argue for the early point in wex, i think a true qe invoker player would never get an early point in wex unless the situation was dire, and even then you might as well just tell your team you failed at mid and ask for a rotation because that would feel better than throwing a point in wex,
the qe style is the most immobile style and the only way for you to move out of mid is to get the 2 forge spirits and a force staff,
maybe this falls under the "bad" western meta, but i have seen dendi on stream not put an early point in wex even under intense lane pressure (by intense i mean he was getting killed left and right by dual lane / constant ganks--don't have source if you want to call bs we can just agree to disagree).
guidemaker you should really post up a dendi style QE that involves blink dagger force staff, also it's discussed that invoker died to storm as QE, Storm spirit is the single strongest hard counter to QE invoker in the current dota2, on stream dendi will use QW invoker play against SS mids because QE is hard countered even though he's said elsewhere that he doesn't practice QW and prefers QE.
one thing i'd ask is people's thoughts on the current (possible) meta shift of invoker play given the upcoming patch?
Puppey and Synderen briefly discussed it on tobi's show but they really didn't take into account what icefrog was trying to do by decreasing the damage, and i think the end result of the nerf is to re-vitalize QE play by de-valuing QW indirectly
oh yeah, last point just from what i've seen i don't think you should discount glass cannon / combat style WE play as being so bad, i think Empire? or someone on EU was doing this and it can still be wildly effective, it's the most unstable build for sure but just because a hero needs to snowball to win doesn't make it bad--> see pudge
you should add a section about laning against certain heroes. every once in a while i'll be really surprised going mid against someone who clearly knows how to play against invoker. most recently i faced a very aggressive SD who would spam poison to harass+lh, rushed bottle to keep up poison+disruption+catcher combos, and be really careful about getting caught out of position with coldsnap.
On September 29 2012 02:22 Firebolt145 wrote: Yeah when I first started playing Invoker, I invoked skills with QWQR, EWER, WQWR etc. Then for some reason when I became really comfortable with the hero I reverted back to QQWR etc.
I started trying "qwq" instead of "qqw" when practicing the "invoker trainer", to see if I could do just a bit quicker. After a day I was up to 41 spells invoked in 30 seconds, instead of the regular 31-32.
But, the second I went into a normal game, I went right back to qqw. I guess I'm simply just that much more comfortable with it. Besides, even with scepter, you have a 2 sec cooldown. So its not like you physically can invoker more than once every 2 sec.
On September 26 2012 23:14 Kishin2 wrote: Also +1 to going Quas first for QE. Cold snap at level 2 is great for lane control and there's the added bonus of the enemy team not knowing whether you're going QE or QW at the start.
Since I first suggested this, there was a patch nerfing Invoker base damage. This pretty much forces you to pick exort first, as you wont get a single lasthit against a decent opponent otherwise (You can still go quas first vs pudge, because you'll just hit him 4-5 times with cold snap if he tries to get close. But your opponent would have to go complete retard to try pudge mid vs invoker in the first place).
Whereas before I would occasionally consider Q at lvl 1 when going QE, I don't do that any more. Also the tango/salve + blades of attack + 1 gg branch is now even stronger when compared to the other starting items suggestion.
Hopefully I'll be able to do an update sometime over the next week or two. There isn't really much to change, only new stuff to add. I may actually do a WE section after all.
Anyway, good guide but after the nerf to invokers base damage do you always start with the blades/healing stuff start? or do you still use the other one?
On October 17 2012 14:04 LazyFailKid wrote: Happy birthday kupo!
Anyway, good guide but after the nerf to invokers base damage do you always start with the blades/healing stuff start? or do you still use the other one?
With QW, yes. With QE I stick to the tango/salve/circlet+3 gg branches. You don't have the inbuilt regen to just go 1 tango/salve.
I have played a total of about 35 games of invoker, I like the assist potential of exort invoker better than the wes simply because it's better in early game lane phase ganking phase of the game. But if the team doesn't have good stun or something to set up the sunstrike then it's ganna be hard to use. In those cases I would go wes instead. Here is a question. I had been trying to get eul to combo with sunstrike and meteor, what's is the order of cast and what is the timing? Do I eul and then meteor right away and then drop sunstrike? or do i eul sunstrke and meteor? do i wait 1 second before sunstrike and meteor after eul?
So I've watched about 10-15 games each of both Ferrari's and Dendi's pub invoker games, though only Ferrari recently (post 6.75). Dendi tends to go QE almost exclusively, and this is possibly why he doesn't play invoker very often anymore in pro matches. Anyway, I find Ferrari's pub invoker play really interesting because of how safe and effective it is. Couple things to note:
1. He very very often opens with 3 points in Quas. It gives him great lane control and safety, and sometimes an extra cold snap proc. If he decides to go wex the tornado is still just as powerful in terms of damage if he went 2 points or even 1 (though I have never seen that; always at least 2 points when opening Quas)
2. After opening Q he will sometimes start levelling Exort. I've seen this at least 3 times, and he still is surprisingly effective, though I would argue that Dendi's sunstrike placement is much better than Ferrari's.
3. When doing QW, a level 3 Quas cold snap into a tornado is almost always a guaranteed kill against mid heroes who do not have a blink or damage mitigation. I've seen Ferrari get fed just by killing his lane opponent at level 5 or 6 and then doing it once or twice more upon respawn, then having tornado + snap invoked at all times and picking people off through the rest of the game. I've done this myself against my lane opponents in pubs to great effect. Though my execution is sloppier I often get an early kill or first blood. (sometimes you die to tower afterward but that's not a big deal)
4. When doing the Scandal-style eul's gank, you do Eul's, wait a little bit under 1 sec (0.8 I believe) then drop a sunstrike, drop the meteor a little after, and then the deafening right as the Eul's expires. Almost always a guaranteed kill.
On November 22 2012 03:58 rei wrote: I have played a total of about 35 games of invoker, I like the assist potential of exort invoker better than the wes simply because it's better in early game lane phase ganking phase of the game. But if the team doesn't have good stun or something to set up the sunstrike then it's ganna be hard to use. In those cases I would go wes instead. Here is a question. I had been trying to get eul to combo with sunstrike and meteor, what's is the order of cast and what is the timing? Do I eul and then meteor right away and then drop sunstrike? or do i eul sunstrke and meteor? do i wait 1 second before sunstrike and meteor after eul?
Of course using sunstrike becomes a lot easier with disables on your team, but it's still possible to hit sunstrikes without disables. Just need to try and predict what the opponent will do. Is he going to run away and try to juke into those trees, or is he chasing your ally? Definitely tricky and risky, but incredibly satisfying when you hit them.
I personally have never played with Euls and maxed sunstrike, but off the top of my head I would say going euls -> wait ~1 second -> sunstrike -> meteor + invoke deafening blast -> deafening blast as quickly as possible would be the best way of doing it.
On November 22 2012 06:15 wherebugsgo wrote: So I've watched about 10-15 games each of both Ferrari's and Dendi's pub invoker games, though only Ferrari recently (post 6.75). Dendi tends to go QE almost exclusively, and this is possibly why he doesn't play invoker very often anymore in pro matches. Anyway, I find Ferrari's pub invoker play really interesting because of how safe and effective it is. Couple things to note:
1. He very very often opens with 3 points in Quas. It gives him great lane control and safety, and sometimes an extra cold snap proc. If he decides to go wex the tornado is still just as powerful in terms of damage if he went 2 points or even 1 (though I have never seen that; always at least 2 points when opening Quas)
2. After opening Q he will sometimes start levelling Exort. I've seen this at least 3 times, and he still is surprisingly effective, though I would argue that Dendi's sunstrike placement is much better than Ferrari's.
3. When doing QW, a level 3 Quas cold snap into a tornado is almost always a guaranteed kill against mid heroes who do not have a blink or damage mitigation. I've seen Ferrari get fed just by killing his lane opponent at level 5 or 6 and then doing it once or twice more upon respawn, then having tornado + snap invoked at all times and picking people off through the rest of the game. I've done this myself against my lane opponents in pubs to great effect. Though my execution is sloppier I often get an early kill or first blood. (sometimes you die to tower afterward but that's not a big deal)
4. When doing the Scandal-style eul's gank, you do Eul's, wait a little bit under 1 sec (0.8 I believe) then drop a sunstrike, drop the meteor a little after, and then the deafening right as the Eul's expires. Almost always a guaranteed kill.
1. I assume you mean going QRQWQ, because QRQQ is not possible (can't get a third point of a spell at lvl 4). And yes, in most games I'd recommend going for a third point of Quas, unless you find yourself taking extremely little harass. This is quite unlikely against most popular solo mid heroes such as TA/QoP etc.
2. If you mean going QRQEEERE, then yes that is definitely an option. Do you prefer having a little more regen or last hit damage, exort or sunstrike at lvl 2? I actually find myself going ERQEEQRE quite often nowadays, when I want that last hit damage to help win last hits + early sunstrike to help ganks, as well as cold snap before level 4 to help harass.
3. I'll add that into the guide as a little tip, thanks.
4. Didn't notice you had answered his question as well ^_^
On November 22 2012 06:15 wherebugsgo wrote: So I've watched about 10-15 games each of both Ferrari's and Dendi's pub invoker games, though only Ferrari recently (post 6.75). Dendi tends to go QE almost exclusively, and this is possibly why he doesn't play invoker very often anymore in pro matches. Anyway, I find Ferrari's pub invoker play really interesting because of how safe and effective it is. Couple things to note:
1. He very very often opens with 3 points in Quas. It gives him great lane control and safety, and sometimes an extra cold snap proc. If he decides to go wex the tornado is still just as powerful in terms of damage if he went 2 points or even 1 (though I have never seen that; always at least 2 points when opening Quas)
2. After opening Q he will sometimes start levelling Exort. I've seen this at least 3 times, and he still is surprisingly effective, though I would argue that Dendi's sunstrike placement is much better than Ferrari's.
3. When doing QW, a level 3 Quas cold snap into a tornado is almost always a guaranteed kill against mid heroes who do not have a blink or damage mitigation. I've seen Ferrari get fed just by killing his lane opponent at level 5 or 6 and then doing it once or twice more upon respawn, then having tornado + snap invoked at all times and picking people off through the rest of the game. I've done this myself against my lane opponents in pubs to great effect. Though my execution is sloppier I often get an early kill or first blood. (sometimes you die to tower afterward but that's not a big deal)
4. When doing the Scandal-style eul's gank, you do Eul's, wait a little bit under 1 sec (0.8 I believe) then drop a sunstrike, drop the meteor a little after, and then the deafening right as the Eul's expires. Almost always a guaranteed kill.
1. I assume you mean going QRQWQ, because QRQQ is not possible (can't get a third point of a spell at lvl 4). And yes, in most games I'd recommend going for a third point of Quas, unless you find yourself taking extremely little harass. This is quite unlikely against most popular solo mid heroes such as TA/QoP etc.
2. If you mean going QRQEEERE, then yes that is definitely an option. Do you prefer having a little more regen or last hit damage, exort or sunstrike at lvl 2? I actually find myself going ERQEEQRE quite often nowadays, when I want that last hit damage to help win last hits + early sunstrike to help ganks, as well as cold snap before level 4 to help harass.
3. I'll add that into the guide as a little tip, thanks.
4. Didn't notice you had answered his question as well ^_^
Yes; that is what I meant. He goes either QRQEQ or QRQWQ (though the latter is much more common).
1. Yep he almost exclusively goes QRQWQ against QoP.
2. Yeah if you open Exort and start losing trades it's usually beneficial to go Q after a point in invoke.
I think the only time you should ever go QRQEQ is if you REALLY want to go exort yet cannot handle the harass if you go E first. You forgo the massive extra last hit damage and sunstrike to go for more regen and stronger cold snap, becoming much more defensive than offensive. I would argue that if you are forced into 3Q's first before anything else then you should be going QW anyway just to get ghost walk and tornado.
But I suppose it's a preference thing at this point.
i think i keep waiting too long after i eul, they have a chance to move away from the spot right after the land, and dodge my shits , need more practice with this.
you could alternatively place the sunstrike a little in the anticipated direction of your deafening blast/where they will run (usually the same direction) overlapping a tiny bit with the Eul's. That's helpful for me sometimes when I'm in a rush and I have blast + meteor invoked instead of meteor + sunstrike.
e: and in this case it's basically: drop meteor, invoke, then anticipate the sunstrike slightly, and then the deafening blast
If for some reason Meteor + normal attack doesn't kill off your opponent; sunstrike in the anticipated direction of where your opponent is headed usually does the trick! (depending on what level of wex or quas was it that you have)
I think you should cover all the ways that people can play invoker.. It is incomplete without WE. Invoker is insanely good because you have 3 builds to choose from and you only name 2..
On December 03 2012 12:29 Delphiki wrote: I think you should cover all the ways that people can play invoker.. It is incomplete without WE. Invoker is insanely good because you have 3 builds to choose from and you only name 2..
He mentions it in the questions :p. It's not really viable (WE), at least not compared to the other two builds.
On December 03 2012 12:29 Delphiki wrote: I think you should cover all the ways that people can play invoker.. It is incomplete without WE. Invoker is insanely good because you have 3 builds to choose from and you only name 2..
You're basically saying that invoker is rly good because he can sometimes go WE build.... wtf
On December 03 2012 12:29 Delphiki wrote: I think you should cover all the ways that people can play invoker.. It is incomplete without WE. Invoker is insanely good because you have 3 builds to choose from and you only name 2..
He mentions it in the questions :p. It's not really viable (WE), at least not compared to the other two builds.
There is a third viable build that's semi-WE build where you go 1-1-max, get eul's and then do the sunstrike, meteor, boom combo and kill off people before they can react to eul's. But I guess calling it WE is kinda a stretch, more of a E build.
Also, I know this guide is super old, but for new invoker players a tip when you're trying to kill someone in your lane early with cold snap + sunstrike combo, let a full range auto attack fly before you cast cold snap, that extra hit + proc on cold snap makes a huge difference.
On December 03 2012 12:29 Delphiki wrote: I think you should cover all the ways that people can play invoker.. It is incomplete without WE. Invoker is insanely good because you have 3 builds to choose from and you only name 2..
He mentions it in the questions :p. It's not really viable (WE), at least not compared to the other two builds.
There is a third viable build that's semi-WE build where you go 1-1-max, get eul's and then do the sunstrike, meteor, boom combo and kill off people before they can react to eul's. But I guess calling it WE is kinda a stretch, more of a E build.
Also, I know this guide is super old, but for new invoker players a tip when you're trying to kill someone in your lane early with cold snap + sunstrike combo, let a full range auto attack fly before you cast cold snap, that extra hit + proc on cold snap makes a huge difference.
yup, the one or two points in q are vital you need coldsnap+deafening blast.
I started playing invoker recently, using this guide as a reference and it's a ton of fun. I'm focusing on QW builds for now, and I realized that I tend to get a TON of assists, but very few kills (and when I don't fuck up I also die very few times). Is it "normal", or is it a sign that I'm not agressive enough? Anyway, I'm having a blast, and the great thing with invoker I feel is that you are a caster that is usefull all game long. I was a bit afraid to pick him up but honestly learning combos is not hard at all, and he is an extremely fun hero to play.
As such, Quas/Wex builds focus on mobility and disable/control more than damage, so you should be getting lots of assists and few solo-kills. Looks like you are doing it right!
Personally think you should change the skilling for QE invoker:
at level 6 you can hold the point, use it in wex if you have to ghost walk away and it can save you. Hold till 7 and you can skill both exort and invoker, giving you lvl 4 sunstrike, which can easily net you a kill. There's little to no reason to up that point in quas imo.
On December 13 2012 04:02 CustomKal wrote: Personally think you should change the skilling for QE invoker:
at level 6 you can hold the point, use it in wex if you have to ghost walk away and it can save you. Hold till 7 and you can skill both exort and invoker, giving you lvl 4 sunstrike, which can easily net you a kill. There's little to no reason to up that point in quas imo.
On September 20 2012 02:40 Firebolt145 wrote: Extra tip: if you are taking next to zero harass and thus do not need a second level of Quas, do not put your level 6 point into Quas. Save it for level 7 where you can put your 2 points into Invoke and an extra point of Exort. This will make your Sunstrike hit even harder a level earlier than it otherwise would.
(He already discusses a wex point at 6 for escaping with QQ walk)
On December 13 2012 01:19 Jetaap wrote: I started playing invoker recently, using this guide as a reference and it's a ton of fun. I'm focusing on QW builds for now, and I realized that I tend to get a TON of assists, but very few kills (and when I don't fuck up I also die very few times). Is it "normal", or is it a sign that I'm not agressive enough? Anyway, I'm having a blast, and the great thing with invoker I feel is that you are a caster that is usefull all game long. I was a bit afraid to pick him up but honestly learning combos is not hard at all, and he is an extremely fun hero to play.
you're doing it wrong. at the beginning in the laning phase + early game try to use tornado to get the kill if the situation allows for it (i.e., you didn't already use tornado to initiate)
as a mid invoker, in the early game the kills belong to you, you need the gold to get your items and carry the early and mid game tempo
with fire invoker it's the same. if you can KS with sunstrike you should do it. you share in the experience even if you're not there and get the gold. later on you can sunstrike earlier to ensure kills/let your carry get the gold etc
On December 13 2012 01:19 Jetaap wrote: I started playing invoker recently, using this guide as a reference and it's a ton of fun. I'm focusing on QW builds for now, and I realized that I tend to get a TON of assists, but very few kills (and when I don't fuck up I also die very few times). Is it "normal", or is it a sign that I'm not agressive enough? Anyway, I'm having a blast, and the great thing with invoker I feel is that you are a caster that is usefull all game long. I was a bit afraid to pick him up but honestly learning combos is not hard at all, and he is an extremely fun hero to play.
you're doing it wrong. at the beginning in the laning phase + early game try to use tornado to get the kill if the situation allows for it (i.e., you didn't already use tornado to initiate)
as a mid invoker, in the early game the kills belong to you, you need the gold to get your items and carry the early and mid game tempo
with fire invoker it's the same. if you can KS with sunstrike you should do it. you share in the experience even if you're not there and get the gold. later on you can sunstrike earlier to ensure kills/let your carry get the gold etc
I don't think 'not getting kills = doing it wrong', if he's got tons of assists and not too many deaths. I've loooong stopped ever saying 'kills belong to you' either after assist gold was buffed.
But yes the tip about KSing with sunstrike is legit.
well yeah of course going purely WE is pretty bad, but it's viable with 1Q to unlock other spells that don't rely that much on Q, in which case arcane boots are a must or you'll never have the mana to afford it. Usually it would be to use coldsnap and much needed ghostwalk, as well as blast. I usually play like this because of how easy laning phase is, and the global presence you have while still being hard to kill. I also like that you can force lategame almost singlehandedly since it's so hard to push against this
My favourite hero. My most played hero. I simply love this hero, he's so much fun, especially once you get Aghanim.
Recently I found out that Ice Wall+Meteor works amazing. Even more so if you Quas-Exort, those extra Quas levels make Ice Wall that much more effective, it slows so much that the enemy heroes hit the whole meteor.
I like playing exort invoker with 4 points into quas with one early point in wex, then after leveling exort leveling wex I like the damage it gives as well as the greater control of spell usage, even though some wont be as strong you can cold snap and forge spirit, with the sunstrike
then for item builds i like to go for items that give me control over the enemy team. So i go for the force staff/euls/ags i can position better/escape, disable at least of target with euls and then ags allows me to use for spells
then for boots i like getting BoTs. I like being able to be anywhere on the map over extra damage and stats
On January 31 2013 06:23 phrenetiC wrote: You might want to add invokergame.com to your guide. It's a pretty neat site to train/memorize his spells with some additional features.
Oh yes, thanks for reminding me. I wrote this guide before that existed and people will still using the Dropbox version.
"Save it for level 7 where you can put your 2 points into Invoke and an extra point of Exort." Blew my mind.
I've been getting a midas after phase cuz I saw koreya do it, and it's nice; my only concern against it is if I'll need to gtfo of something early on, like pudge or ns. + Show Spoiler +
I sometimes find myself staring at my keyboard after tornado-meteor-deaf blast wondering what else I can do..."uhhlacrity...oh I have cold snap still...ah! ice wa--aww the fight's over."
I dont know if it was discussed already, but I dont really understand why you dont recommend eul scepter on QE invoker, I think it helps a lot with invoker mana issues, and allows to set up sunstrikes/meteors on your own, which is really useful I feel.
On February 07 2013 18:10 Jetaap wrote: I dont know if it was discussed already, but I dont really understand why you dont recommend eul scepter on QE invoker, I think it helps a lot with invoker mana issues, and allows to set up sunstrikes/meteors on your own, which is really useful I feel.
It's a valid option if you go for the Sunstrike + Meteor + Blast combo, but isn't that good if you are going for standard QE. I guess I can slip it into the Optional items but Force into Sheep/Aghs are much stronger.
Hey I just wanted to say thanks for the guide. I'm a long time DotA player (since 5.60b), was very good back then, took a break for a few years after 2008. Came back to DotA 2 and found a lot had changed - AKA everyone got a whole lot better and wow I suck these days... goddamnit. Pudge and Shadow Fiend getting picked ALL THE TIME as well and they often pwn the shit out of the game so I thought, ok I know I don't think I'm good enough for mid these days, but it's time to learn a mid hero that can wrestle control for mid from these pubstars. I thought of which heroes I should learn but your guide made me pick Invoker. Thanks for the simple, no-nonsense guide to his skill and item builds. It took some practice to get the hang of but imo your guide is very good and if anyone asks me how to play Invoker I will be referring them to this guide as it's where I learnt pretty much everything from.
One thing you may want to add to the guide is when some situations where QW is stronger than QE, and vice-versa, depending on the hero you vs in mid. For example, after a lot of games I have found that if I vs a Shadow Fiend mid QE is a much stronger choice whereas vs a Storm Spirit I don't need the extra damage as much and QW may be more appropriate. Then again this is my opinion and you may disagree but if it makes sense perhaps it may help for people to know as I often see people defaulting to QE Invoker when they could still do fine with QW.
Hey Firebolt, how do you feel about an Invoker build that gets early midas and uses the fast level 12 to gank shitloads with cold snap/forge spirits like normal, except instead of following up with sheep/aghs and spamming spells in the lategame you focus on farming a quick crystalys and maelstrom (to build later mjolnir/daedalus) and use exort and alacrity combined with cold snap to be the scariest rightclick DPS on the map until ~40 minutes?
His DPS output is INSANE with forge spirits armor reduction/alacrity/exort/crit, and if you follow it up with mjol/daed/heart/skadi/sheep etc. you can still have more than enough mana to use all your spells in teamfights while also providing a pretty brutal rightclick presence from minute 15 until the end of the game. It seems less trolly than a WE Invoker build (ie. you still have the mana pool to cast most of your spells, even if you do have to manage it a lot better, since you're not casting as many of them in the midgame and lategame you have a massive mana pool from stats) while still managing to provide more secondary DPS in the midgame and lategame than most other mids are comparable with (with the exception of SF and such heroes). I feel like if you're going to be outcarried in the lategame this is one of the best things a mid Invoker can do to provide tons of lategame presence without sacrificing too much midgame and I wanted to know how you felt about it.
On February 13 2013 09:44 nebffa wrote: Hey I just wanted to say thanks for the guide. I'm a long time DotA player (since 5.60b), was very good back then, took a break for a few years after 2008. Came back to DotA 2 and found a lot had changed - AKA everyone got a whole lot better and wow I suck these days... goddamnit. Pudge and Shadow Fiend getting picked ALL THE TIME as well and they often pwn the shit out of the game so I thought, ok I know I don't think I'm good enough for mid these days, but it's time to learn a mid hero that can wrestle control for mid from these pubstars. I thought of which heroes I should learn but your guide made me pick Invoker. Thanks for the simple, no-nonsense guide to his skill and item builds. It took some practice to get the hang of but imo your guide is very good and if anyone asks me how to play Invoker I will be referring them to this guide as it's where I learnt pretty much everything from.
One thing you may want to add to the guide is when some situations where QW is stronger than QE, and vice-versa, depending on the hero you vs in mid. For example, after a lot of games I have found that if I vs a Shadow Fiend mid QE is a much stronger choice whereas vs a Storm Spirit I don't need the extra damage as much and QW may be more appropriate. Then again this is my opinion and you may disagree but if it makes sense perhaps it may help for people to know as I often see people defaulting to QE Invoker when they could still do fine with QW.
Thanks
I'm sure Invoker is quite strong in pubs, but he's actually a relatively weak laner nowadays. The base damage nerf hit him really hard and it's almost impossible to outcs any decent mid if you're not going exort.
Can't watch video but is that basically the same thing as medusa except without split shot helping you? Sounds hilarious but really bad, just like any other gimmicky jungling.
Yeah, typical range hero ancient farming. It's not even optimized. Tells you to get invoke at lvl 2 and wex at 3, when getting wex at 2 will give you that sweet sweet agi to kill stuff faster.
Does have the added use of actually contributing to lanes a tiny bit with sunstrike though. So
You can jungle on dire by cutting a path above the medium camp. You auto attack the medium camp and then stack the small camp and kill it with meteor. Its actually pretty decent in terms of leveling.
On June 23 2013 08:58 734pot wrote: You can jungle on dire by cutting a path above the medium camp. You auto attack the medium camp and then stack the small camp and kill it with meteor. Its actually pretty decent in terms of leveling.
Wow, so you're saying invoker can jungle decently? Even if invoker can be doing this ancient farming, should he be? Or is this just an alternative source of farm that you can take advantage of if other spots are not possible?
They are all gimmicky and shouldn't be done in any seriousness. Of course in pubs you are free to do fun and silly stuff but you shouldn't expect anything amazing from this.
I don't even think jungle invoker (at least the method that I described) is that great in pubs because it forces you to use a suboptimal skill build.
A build I've been trying out for mid invoker is just to get a point in exort at lvl 1 and then just going full QW afterwards. I only really do this if I have a pretty unfavourable mid match up and I really feel like going QW. I usually get less points in Q than I normally would, but I start with a RoP to build into tranquils to offset the lower regen. No idea if this would be viable at higher levels, but I've found having alacrity and deafening blast early on to be pretty useful.
so I tried the Ancients thing in bots practice, and I really don't like it. It's a) gimmicky, b) boring and c) easily shut down. If we're gonna play Invoker, it's gonna be in a lane.
On June 24 2013 03:36 LAN-f34r wrote: Its a nice thing to keep in mind for when you play AR and get 5 carries that all want to solo a lane though.
Also like how they adapted to less wards in 6.78 didn't waste money on noob items like wards
Why would you buy wards? they dont do any damage...
I know this isn't the QQ thread but the other game I was playing the solo support strat and 3 players on the other team had invis. We were considerably ahead but noone got any detection.
"hey can one of you get some detection" "it's ur job" <- said by Elder Titan with stout shield, bracer and 2 rings of regen 30 minutes into the game
Appearently the whole notion of "you can't punch what you can't see" doesn't make sense to most pub players.
Just started trying to add this hero to my solo mid pool and having a bit of fun practicing him vs bots right now. RIght now trying to work on some familiarity with the QE Invoker before I try him out in pubs.
I'd like to know though, when do you start pumping more points into Wex. Do you max out Quas and Exort first or do you start getting the levels up after 12 so that you can start using Tornado, Chaos Meteor, Alacrity, Deafening Blast along with the early QE spells.
After I get double forge spirits + a level of wex at level 11, max E first. After that it's kinda personal preference. I like the huge teamfights and aoe spells that more W gives you, so I prefer to split my points evenly between Q and W from then on (ie I get W up to 4 points to match my Q, then alternate between them). Obviously get R whenever you can.
Do you guys still build drums? I used to enjoy going wand/bracer/boots into arcane/drums/force but lately I feel like I can just keep the bracer to grab big ticket items like aghs (I'm a huge sucker for aghs).
After playing Invoker for a long time now, I've realized if you play in lower brackets most people will demand you go gank, and will yell at you for NOT ganking. If you see this, and this just isn't for invoker (this is general mid play) -- then you know your lanes are noobs, because it's not mids job to gank, as commonly believed, it's mids job to win mid and gain an advantage to semi-carry (or farm up support/initiator items) for the carry to farm up is game-ending arsenal. Sometimes winnning mid involves ganking the lanes, but that depends on who is mid, what your lineup is, and the strategy, but not speicfic job of mid. Leaving mid as Invoker is asking to give the other mid a big advantage, but if by all means they dive TP in. Otherwise, you can gank anywhere with Sunstrike and not leave your lane, tell ur mates to shut up =D
On July 10 2013 04:20 deadmau wrote: After playing Invoker for a long time now, I've realized if you play in lower brackets most people will demand you go gank, and will yell at you for NOT ganking. If you see this, and this just isn't for invoker (this is general mid play) -- then you know your lanes are noobs, because it's not mids job to gank, as commonly believed, it's mids job to win mid and gain an advantage to semi-carry (or farm up support/initiator items) for the carry to farm up is game-ending arsenal. Sometimes winnning mid involves ganking the lanes, but that depends on who is mid, what your lineup is, and the strategy, but not speicfic job of mid. Leaving mid as Invoker is asking to give the other mid a big advantage, but if by all means they dive TP in. Otherwise, you can gank anywhere with Sunstrike and not leave your lane, tell ur mates to shut up =D
Mid's job isn't really just to win his lane, that's pretty hard to do as a QW invoker unless you're ice3
however EQ really shouldn't be rotating early especially if the opponent mid is a roaming ganker like pudge, as you can get mid tower by 7mins while ganking with sunstrike
On July 10 2013 04:20 deadmau wrote: After playing Invoker for a long time now, I've realized if you play in lower brackets most people will demand you go gank, and will yell at you for NOT ganking. If you see this, and this just isn't for invoker (this is general mid play) -- then you know your lanes are noobs, because it's not mids job to gank, as commonly believed, it's mids job to win mid and gain an advantage to semi-carry (or farm up support/initiator items) for the carry to farm up is game-ending arsenal. Sometimes winnning mid involves ganking the lanes, but that depends on who is mid, what your lineup is, and the strategy, but not speicfic job of mid. Leaving mid as Invoker is asking to give the other mid a big advantage, but if by all means they dive TP in. Otherwise, you can gank anywhere with Sunstrike and not leave your lane, tell ur mates to shut up =D
Mid's job isn't really just to win his lane, that's pretty hard to do as a QW invoker unless you're ice3
however EQ really shouldn't be rotating early especially if the opponent mid is a roaming ganker like pudge, as you can get mid tower by 7mins while ganking with sunstrike
Hard for me to hit that timing when going HoM build, since i get it around 7:00.
QW does fine in lane. There is no way to be aggressive on you, since creeps+coldsnap = dead. QW can freely harass you and come out on top if you try to counter harass due to quas regen. Phase boots rush lets you prevent people from denying you after a short time. He isn't as good in lane as QE, but still very strong.
Imo, invoker shouldn't be eager to roam. Many heroes will start roaming with level 6 because they get a powerful ult then, where as invoker gets a small boost at level 7 and then has a pretty linear progression. Ganking before 6 is fairly risky, because even success can leave you underleveled for going back to lane. Ganking at 6 puts you at a disadvantage if tp support comes in and you have a mini teamfight. QW invoker often can do a decent job ganking post-6, but QE invoker generally wants to farm up until dual spirits before fighting anything.
On July 10 2013 04:20 deadmau wrote: After playing Invoker for a long time now, I've realized if you play in lower brackets most people will demand you go gank, and will yell at you for NOT ganking. If you see this, and this just isn't for invoker (this is general mid play) -- then you know your lanes are noobs, because it's not mids job to gank, as commonly believed, it's mids job to win mid and gain an advantage to semi-carry (or farm up support/initiator items) for the carry to farm up is game-ending arsenal. Sometimes winnning mid involves ganking the lanes, but that depends on who is mid, what your lineup is, and the strategy, but not speicfic job of mid. Leaving mid as Invoker is asking to give the other mid a big advantage, but if by all means they dive TP in. Otherwise, you can gank anywhere with Sunstrike and not leave your lane, tell ur mates to shut up =D
Mid's job isn't really just to win his lane, that's pretty hard to do as a QW invoker unless you're ice3
however EQ really shouldn't be rotating early especially if the opponent mid is a roaming ganker like pudge, as you can get mid tower by 7mins while ganking with sunstrike
Hard for me to hit that timing when going HoM build, since i get it around 7:00.
I would never go midas as mid Invoker. I would only consider midas if I was safelane.
I usually go for midas on him, regardless of lane. It really depends on who I'm facing. In an easy lane I can get it in 5 minutes but it's usually between 6-7. Midas helps a lot with getting that xp faster, especially if you transmute the biggest mobs, satyrs and trolls. It is risky though, and you shouldn't really do it in an unorganized team. If you get ganked and have no boots 7 minutes in you might as well be dead.
Nice guide. I'm trying to work on my qw invoker but seems like everytime I do I end up losing. I usually mid and I do fairly well last-hit-wise until lvl 7 or 8. Then I start ganking and the time a bit after this is usually this is where most of my games come to a standstill.
I'll be like lvl 11 or 12 and both teams have decided to play 5 man doto. This is where I usually just stop levelling altogether until we get a successful gank. Is there a reliable way to start levelling again during this midgame stage? I've played enough invoker to know he's quite level dependent but so many of my games turn into standstills where both teams are never alone and also hesitant to fight each other, which prevents me from being able to farm a bit more or gain levels..
As QW invoker, just 'nado EMP. You don't need to be massively overleveled - if both teams are coming to a standstill, then they aren't getting XP either. EMP wears them down so you can just push in because people are oom so they either suck in the fight or have to go back to base.
That said, look out for opportunities to run to other lanes with your super speed and push out that lane. If a fight breaks out while you are gone, you can just tp back to the fight.
Someday soon I'll update this. Not too many changes, but will have to talk more about the weaknesses of QW in last hitting etc. Also things like when a Midas is appropriate, and how hilariously fun Refresher actually is for late game Invoker.
On July 11 2013 22:56 Firebolt145 wrote: Someday soon I'll update this. Not too many changes, but will have to talk more about the weaknesses of QW in last hitting etc. Also things like when a Midas is appropriate, and how hilariously fun Refresher actually is for late game Invoker.
Do you think refresher is a strong item on invoker or just a fun troll item? I never see pros get it but it seems like it has potential in some situations.
Refresher is certainly only gotten for fun and lulz. Even if you have a hex first, that late in the game, the enemies should all have BKBs making Refresher kinda mediocre for teamfights. At that point in a serious game, an item like MKB would help you contribute more with physical DPS.
The only times I'd consider Refresher a serious item is if - The enemies have somehow completely forgotten to get >1 BKB. - Your team doesn't need another source of physical DPS. - You already have hex and/or are stomping the other guys.
In which case, Tornado > Meteor > Blast > Meteor > Blast > Ice Wall/EMP/Sunstrike/whatever is absolutely hilarious.
Why is the EW nuker build so rare in pubs? I personally find it to be far more effective than the EQ build; it has great solo ganking potential and equally impactful teamfight presence. Yet all I see, from my own games to page 1 live games to pro replays is EQ with a spattering of QW.
Second, what factors do you guys take into consideration when deciding on a build? I understand in some lanes quas requires more than one point, so you could go EQ, but assuming a lack of laning problems, what should determine your build?
Third, anyone got a replay for solid EW play? Not necessarily progamer level, but at least in very high.
On July 12 2013 09:22 Firebolt145 wrote: Refresher is certainly only gotten for fun and lulz. Even if you have a hex first, that late in the game, the enemies should all have BKBs making Refresher kinda mediocre for teamfights. At that point in a serious game, an item like MKB would help you contribute more with physical DPS.
The only times I'd consider Refresher a serious item is if - The enemies have somehow completely forgotten to get >1 BKB. - Your team doesn't need another source of physical DPS. - You already have hex and/or are stomping the other guys.
In which case, Tornado > Meteor > Blast > Meteor > Blast > Ice Wall/EMP/Sunstrike/whatever is absolutely hilarious.
With maxed quas, ideally you would do Tornado -> Sunstrike -> Meteor ->....
On July 30 2013 18:10 Gandalf wrote: Why is the EW nuker build so rare in pubs? I personally find it to be far more effective than the EQ build; it has great solo ganking potential and equally impactful teamfight presence. Yet all I see, from my own games to page 1 live games to pro replays is EQ with a spattering of QW.
Second, what factors do you guys take into consideration when deciding on a build? I understand in some lanes quas requires more than one point, so you could go EQ, but assuming a lack of laning problems, what should determine your build?
Third, anyone got a replay for solid EW play? Not necessarily progamer level, but at least in very high.
I love WE Invoker, Dendi does it a lot on stream with Arcane Boots.
That said, WE invoker can be punished heavily by a good team.
Lack of mobility, high mana cost, weak in lane. QE is used more because Invoker is stronger in lane, more sustain, and has split push and scouting potential with forged spirits. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Hello TeamLiquid, as I remember from my SC2 days as a lowly diamond league player trying to get to masters, it was hard to do but I posted replays of me being bad, and people told me I was bad, but they helped, so I got better. Maybe anyone that plays in Very High, or competitive can critique my replay specifically for Invoker and the Mid Role.
Notes/Questions: - I did a terrible job of pressuring the lanes, tried to Sunstrike to alleviate this. - What is the proper timing to gank with Inv? - Against an opponent that will for sure out rune you, what can I do to not lose mid; follow and gank, or push? (in the replay i failed to do either) - Was it my lineup that prevented me from having more map presence in my teammates lanes? Any suggestions here, i'm terrible at comps. - Was there any point I could have just ended, yet i chose to farm instead? Better yet did i forgo any team/midrole/#2 duties instead to go and farm? - Any items I should not have gotten? Anything out of order? I'm often slow at choosing what's best for that given moment. - Please excuse the terrible last hitting, I used a new build, and didn't realize my timings would be so off. Usually competent and break even or win. - When should I start helping the 4/5 with wards, when I'm owning?
I really dislike this 1-thread per hero thing. I don't particularly care if it worked for the LoL subforum which seems to be your model, its awful for this one.
I really dislike this 1-thread per hero thing. I don't particularly care if it worked for the LoL subforum which seems to be your model, its awful for this one.
Most discussions are a lot more organic and need a relevant OP whereas this way you have to write a stupid guide for an OP and if you ever want to comment on the strategy of a hero you have to necro some 18 month old thread with an OP of varying quality in order to discuss something that has nothing to do with the OP's guide. Then people will come into the thread and comment on the OP having the wrong item choices since it was written 2 years and 4 major patches ago without even reading your comment or question regarding the ability of the hero to say do ancients at level 1 or whatever.
Its just a poor way to structure discussion of DotA strategy in general. If the OP of a thread wasn't so important then this MIGHT be a decent paradigm but even then its weak compared to simply allowing people to discuss what they will. Besides which nobody wants to read through an 8+ page thread to see if anybody has say better item recommendations than OP does.
On February 05 2014 07:21 Sn0_Man wrote: Most discussions are a lot more organic and need a relevant OP whereas this way you have to write a stupid guide for an OP and if you ever want to comment on the strategy of a hero you have to necro some 18 month old thread with an OP of varying quality in order to discuss something that has nothing to do with the OP's guide. Then people will come into the thread and comment on the OP having the wrong item choices since it was written 2 years and 4 major patches ago without even reading your comment or question regarding the ability of the hero to say do ancients at level 1 or whatever.
Part of the reason for this change was because people were doing this anyway. The only difference was that instead of having just one thread that would get bumped when someone had a new discussion topic, we would have three or four and the poster would pick whichever one they found first. You'd still get people commenting on the OP rather than on the new discussion topic.
The purpose for the change was to try and shift focus away from the OP and to set the expectation of each thread as a discussion thread and to address the issue which you consider to be the problem that arose even more problematically before.
On February 05 2014 12:08 ZerG~LegenD wrote: I hate the new system. Perhaps not the system so much as the mods killing good discussions because it did not conform the system.
This is my biggest complaint as well. If you're going to banish a valid and useful discussion to oblivion because it's in the wrong thread, at least merge the threads. Then people can see what points were made and continue.
If you can't merge the threads for whatever reason, dump a mass quote post in the thread you want people to move to, or something. Closing the thread and saying "go elsewhere" just stops discussion dead. This thread is exhibit A, if you need proof of that.
I also think you would be better served by creating your own blank OPs. Yes, it's a lot of work for you and yes it would briefly clutter the forum, but i'd rather discuss a hero in a thread with a one-line OP saying "discuss voker here", instead of having to necro a 3 year old irrelevant guide.
Unfortunately merging threads is not possible, though I wish it was. However I will start mass quoting threads into where they belong from now on, and will do that to this thread later today.
Our original intent was to reduce the emphasis on the guide in the OP, yet still have it as an easily accessible resource. I appreciate that many of the guides are out of date, and just earlier this week I made a list of all our guides that I personally will be updating over the coming few weeks.
Lastly, if you have any other feedback, please post them in the Strategy Guidelines thread instead.
On February 05 2014 02:43 Tookie22 wrote: So in my never ending efforts to climb the solo mmr I've picked up Invoker as one of my go to heroes. I've been very effective with 4-0-4-1 build pre and post patch but the nerf definitely hurt. I'm wondering if there is a definitive new best play style. The play styles I've seen have been:
QE 2 forge spirit rush Invoker - the 6.79 standard and still powerful but perhaps not the sure best style anymore.
E max - Good vs squishy teams or if you have a lot of lockdown. Can easily 100-0 most heroes with euls sunstrike combo. Seems good but situational.
QW emp - This could be the new meta but I'm not totally sold yet. Provides incredible crowd control and mana drain at the expense of damage. Main downside is you can't really carry with this build. I've seen it played with an orchid ganking with ghost walk in midgame or a refresher for double emp.
I'm particularly interested in QW so if anyone had any tips on how to play it and what items to go that would be greatly appreciated. I feel kinda lost playing it and never know what to have invoked.
So what's the best play style In generalfor 6.80?Obviously it's situation dependent. If you're gonna say multiple at least say what situation you would use each in.
On February 05 2014 02:49 Laserist wrote: I see no noticeable difference, since the patch changes invoker was 6.79. Both exort or wex invoker can be still played as what they were. Exort for kill and lane dominance, also global presence and right click damage; while Wex is for mobility, teamfight and disables.
QW is not new and played commonly previously, maybe more before the tornada-emp nerf. Still viable in the hands of a good player.
On February 05 2014 02:53 Sn0_Man wrote: I don't think people are giving enough credit to turbo-ghostwalk, that shit's insane IMO. Admittedly the mana cost is steep.
On February 05 2014 02:49 Laserist wrote: I see no noticeable difference, since the patch changes invoker was 6.79. Both exort or wex invoker can be still played as what they were. Exort for kill and lane dominance, also global presence and right click damage; while Wex is for mobility, teamfight and disables.
QW is not new and played commonly previously, maybe more before the tornada-emp nerf. Still viable in the hands of a good player.
I think the armor and range nerf on spirits made them much less appealing. As far as QW being commonly, I remember like a year ago it was but since the nerfs I haven't seem a single QW invoker. So should extort be the goto build for solo rmmr?
On February 05 2014 02:57 TheYango wrote: Depends on the game and what your team needs. Both styles have their advantages, which is more appropriate for a given game depends heavily on the teamcomps (Laserist outlined when each is appropriate fairly clearly).
It is notable that in many cases, QW Invoker still maxes Exort first. This is because while EMP gives you powerful midgame timings, it's strength as a skill drops off lategame, and the later Wex ranks tend to be less useful than Exort (which has the highest overall increase in spell damage over ranks compared to the other skills).
On February 05 2014 03:05 Laserist wrote: There was no point to go wex instead of exort until icefraud decided to buff emp. Even though mana cost are lower in qw, cooldowns are also lower too, which means mana drain relaxes qw invoker significantly. QW also gives immense initiation and zoning, if you have a good team setup with a strong dps but no initiation, that means qw invoker indeed in my book. But in pubs, exort is a better choice overall since it gives you opportunity to go solo and control the game. QW relies teammates more than QW imo.
Edit: I forgot the base damage nerf which also force people to go exort in general. It is probably more relevant than the tornoda-emp thingy.
On February 05 2014 03:34 DucK- wrote: I go either QW or QE depending on the game. If I see that my team has alot of setup for Sunstrike, I tend to go QE.
On February 05 2014 03:38 BlitzerSC wrote: WE and u spam alacrity on yourself. Quas regen is overrated, you can do without no problems.
edit: I'm serious btw, you should try it. Maybe it's not the best, but it's really good.
I saw icex3 going an interesting invoker build. It was the standard QW except he chose to max Q instead of E after W. I'm used to invokers leveling up exort as the game goes late.
Also, I've updated the OP in a way that draws less attention to the guide, gives a warning about stuff that is out of date, yet also allows easy access to the guide for people who want it.
Imho Quas regen is very good. It scales real sick on the early levels (3/6/9/12, more is overkill) so at level 4 Quas you reach tranquil boots rate of regen, but in most cases 2 or 3 is the sweet spot. I love going QW these days mostly because i can rush phase boots, cold snap people almost every single time if they draw aggro, and not give a shit about getting hit by creeps myself. About the Iceiceice build, the only things that come to my mind is matching the tornado disable time with EMP delay.
On February 06 2014 00:45 robaq wrote: Imho Quas regen is very good. It scales real sick on the early levels (3/6/9/12, more is overkill) so at level 4 Quas you reach tranquil boots rate of regen, but in most cases 2 or 3 is the sweet spot. I love going QW these days mostly because i can rush phase boots, cold snap people almost every single time if they draw aggro, and not give a shit about getting hit by creeps myself.
What you described works just as well (actually much better) in a dual-forge-spirits QE build #justsaying
When going dual-forge build (the good QE build last patch, more debatable now) you hit 4/0/4/2 at level 10 or that with 1 wex at level 11 so you have the regen down no problem.
On February 07 2014 11:09 Weird wrote: Hi, new Invoker here. If I'm going QE or WE, when should I build a midas? Do you just make it first? Or brown boots then midas? Or what? Thanks.
A typical quas exort greedy item build (at least this is what I do) is null talisman tangoes at the start - > hand of midas. It gives you base damage and enough regen before leveling up quas.
For quas wex invoker, you usually dont get midas because you're more of a midgame teamfight hero, but you would probably want midas after phase boots or at a minimum blades of attack because you need the base damage from phase boots to last hit adequately.
On February 07 2014 14:56 Belisarius wrote: Is starting blades of attack on QW voker as awful as it appears?
My every instinct says get a null instead, but... maybe it's valid as a bottle-rush-esque tactic to eke phase out of a losing lane?
It was more valid when first level of invoke only gave one spell. The idea is that you don't really have mana problems so the int from a null is somewhat wasted, and you need the damage to help last hit without exort. Typically you just go straight for phase boots, skipping bottle with this build iirc.
Nowadays, with two spells off the bat (and three with an invoke on cd), the extra stats/bottle is helpful to tornado into emp and coldsnap.
On February 07 2014 14:56 Belisarius wrote: Is starting blades of attack on QW voker as awful as it appears?
My every instinct says get a null instead, but... maybe it's valid as a bottle-rush-esque tactic to eke phase out of a losing lane?
It was more valid when first level of invoke only gave one spell. The idea is that you don't really have mana problems so the int from a null is somewhat wasted, and you need the damage to help last hit without exort. Typically you just go straight for phase boots, skipping bottle with this build iirc.
Nowadays, with two spells off the bat (and three with an invoke on cd), the extra stats/bottle is helpful to tornado into emp and coldsnap.
I'd get bottle when facing a mana burn hero. Otherwise, if you nail EMPs perfectly, you will have zero mana problems. I'm not so good at it so i usually get two nulls and ferry an occasional clarity.
Bottle is pretty good against tough laners that can't easily push the wave, like Skywrath and TA. Chains is one of the best Invoker players in the world and often gets a bottle. I think its an under-utilized item simply because most players aren't used to getting it on Invoker.
On February 11 2014 10:19 ZerG~LegenD wrote: Bottle is pretty good against tough laners that can't easily push the wave, like Skywrath and TA. Chains is one of the best Invoker players in the world and often gets a bottle. I think its an under-utilized item simply because most players aren't used to getting it on Invoker.
Awesome, thank you!
Although, one time I faced a TA who relentlessly autoattacked the creepwaves, pushing the lane a fair bit. How should I respond to this?
I'm an awful voker, but I really don't see why bottle is so quickly rejected by people, particularly on QW voker.
He can use bottle charges to spam cold snap in lane, and he ganks well with runes. His lack of lane control is an obvious issue, but if he's against someone who also has poor lane control - and there are a lot of those, including serious contenders like sky - that's not the end of the world. I wouldn't get it every game, and especially not against something with really good rune control, but it's not on the "awful" list by any stretch.
The one I'm having more trouble with is midas on QW voker. Do you want it? Is it still worth getting after phase boots? I don't feel like I can skip them without exort.
On February 11 2014 15:52 Belisarius wrote: I'm an awful voker, but I really don't see why bottle is so quickly rejected by people, particularly on QW voker.
He can use bottle charges to spam cold snap in lane, and he ganks well with runes. His lack of lane control is an obvious issue, but if he's against someone who also has poor lane control - and there are a lot of those, including serious contenders like sky - that's not the end of the world. I wouldn't get it every game, and especially not against something with really good rune control, but it's not on the "awful" list by any stretch.
The one I'm having more trouble with is midas on QW voker. Do you want it? Is it still worth getting after phase boots? I don't feel like I can skip them without exort.
In fact, I watched Liquid'TC stream yesterday, he played QW invoker and did indeed go for bottle, against a puck. I think it can be good if you really get full use of your spells, TC was constantly trying to harass with cold snap, even started using EMPs often early on. It's just quite a big investment for a hero who really doesn't need to rely on spells... but if you can make those spells worth the investment, go for it.
On February 06 2014 02:24 Sn0_Man wrote: your first 7 points as QE are almost always
3 exort 2 quas 2 invoke
so that hits your "sweet spot" for regen.
The only time people delay phase is for midas.
When going dual-forge build (the good QE build last patch, more debatable now) you hit 4/0/4/2 at level 10 or that with 1 wex at level 11 so you have the regen down no problem.
The second point in invoke is bad, it barely reduces the CD. The 3rd point becomes interesting however it requires level 12 and heroes stay level 11 for ages so you'll often see pros go for invoke at level 12 and 13. Sometimes they even skip invoke level 2 until exort is maxed, but you have to be confident in your sunstrikes skill and it requires a midas.
On February 11 2014 10:19 ZerG~LegenD wrote: Bottle is pretty good against tough laners that can't easily push the wave, like Skywrath and TA. Chains is one of the best Invoker players in the world and often gets a bottle. I think its an under-utilized item simply because most players aren't used to getting it on Invoker.
Awesome, thank you!
Although, one time I faced a TA who relentlessly autoattacked the creepwaves, pushing the lane a fair bit. How should I respond to this?
TA can indeed push the wave quickly by splashing it down but in order to do so she has to walk into melee range of the wave. By positioning yourself aggressively and dropping a few spells you should be able to deny her the ability to attack creeps at the cost of some HP/Mana for both of you, however, if you bottle a rune because of this it is not a big deal.
As a QE Invoker (which is what I mostly play, haven't faced a TA as QW yet) I'd have Spirits summoned and drop an Ice Wall as soon as she tried to trade hits with me and then kite along the wall. Low level Ice Walls don't slow that much so she can get away from it pretty easily if you kite away from the wall instead of along it. If she Meld hides or keep going at you you can drop a Cold Snap and kill her if you have detection (it is worth buying your own sentries after boots vs TA). If she runs away you can attack the wave while she can't.
On February 11 2014 15:52 Belisarius wrote: The one I'm having more trouble with is midas on QW voker. Do you want it? Is it still worth getting after phase boots? I don't feel like I can skip them without exort.
While the +damage is nice in general, the major benefit of Phase Boots is what they do for you in lane, and often you don't need them simply because the enemy can't go for last hits without taking major damage. This is normally the case against melee heroes like Pudge but could also happen in other lanes if your supports rotate in and successfully gank the enemy or if they mess up and you get a solo kill. The big downside of starting with Blades of Attack is that you can't be flexible in this. However, you can still get Midas after Phase Boots if you're doing great. Maybe you got first blood or you're 2-0 or something like that.
Still, I am not convinced that you ever want a Midas on a mid Invoker. My wr% went through the roof when I stopped getting it on my QE Invoker.
I think Midas is for snowballing games when you get a great start, as in phase/treads + midas by 8-9 minutes. It really lets you be a lot more active fighting around the map, and still have a big item or two (hex, scepter, deso, whatever you like) by the late game.
An invoker without a midas who doesn't farm a lot or keep up on levels really loses a lot of oomph as the game drags on and the BKBs come out.
edit: well these thoughts are on QE invoker, who doesn't badly need to kill everybody just because his pushing is great. QW invoker is different, and imo should probably be played as a more aggressive midding ganker who tries to force early fights with tornado, and win early clashes with emp. A midas would really slow him down and he benefits greatly from a positioning item (blink/force) so it's a harder decision there.
On February 11 2014 20:58 beef42 wrote: A midas would really slow him down and he benefits greatly from a positioning item (blink/force) so it's a harder decision there.
I think getting an early positioning item on QW Invoker is a huge mistake. He needs items that helps him solo-kill, getting an early Orchid and then adapting a playstyle similar to Clinkz is the way to go in most games.
Well that's an entirely different thing. I think of and play QW invoker as an initiator, chaser, ganker and general team-oriented kind of guy. Not a solo killer.
I never tried playing like that, perhaps I should.
I really feel like if you're trying to solokill, QW voker is not your man.
I guess with the new ghost walk it might be okay if it turns out that a poor-man's-clinkz is what your team really needs, but I can't ever imagine picking voker with the intention to do that.
My first reaction was 'why are you trying to make invoker do something he's not designed to do' but then I started wondering, what if you ran around in ghostwalk and initiated with alacrity + coldsnap + orchids? Hmm.
I still don't think you'd get the solokill with cold snap on anything except a support, and then you'd just have to chase them till your next invoke came up. With wex MS that wouldn't be a problem if their team was elsewhere, but it still seems a far cry from an actual clinkz. You're also stuck in their jungle without ghost walk afterwards.
I've been wrong a million times before, though, so idk.
So you're going to be Clinkz, except instead of Skeleton Walk, you're going to spend 125 mana more on Ghost Walk which has almost double the cooldown, telegraphs a "DUST HERE" sign, and makes you slower the first few levels?
I got the GW+Orchid build from Iceiceice and Chains, it has worked well both for them and me. Generally you use Cold Snap + EMP rather than Alacrity, I'm pretty sure it does more damage over the 5 seconds you have them silenced. If the enemy group up and 5-man, fine, QW Invoker is really good at that even you're sitting on an Orchid. If possible, invoke Cold Snap before Ghost Walk so you can use it a second time to get out of there after getting the kill.
On February 11 2014 22:41 hariooo wrote: So you're going to be Clinkz, except instead of Skeleton Walk, you're going to spend 125 mana more on Ghost Walk which has almost double the cooldown, telegraphs a "DUST HERE" sign, and makes you slower the first few levels?
Mana is not an issue for an intelligence hero with an Orchid with almost infinite duration on the invis. The slow is only visible if you walk within 400 range of the enemy, which is easy to avoid.
While pros can do it simply because they're so much better than everyone else, I question why the average Joe won't just pick clinkz if he wants to do that sort of thing.
On February 11 2014 10:19 ZerG~LegenD wrote: Bottle is pretty good against tough laners that can't easily push the wave, like Skywrath and TA. Chains is one of the best Invoker players in the world and often gets a bottle. I think its an under-utilized item simply because most players aren't used to getting it on Invoker.
Awesome, thank you!
Although, one time I faced a TA who relentlessly autoattacked the creepwaves, pushing the lane a fair bit. How should I respond to this?
TA can indeed push the wave quickly by splashing it down but in order to do so she has to walk into melee range of the wave. By positioning yourself aggressively and dropping a few spells you should be able to deny her the ability to attack creeps at the cost of some HP/Mana for both of you, however, if you bottle a rune because of this it is not a big deal.
As a QE Invoker (which is what I mostly play, haven't faced a TA as QW yet) I'd have Spirits summoned and drop an Ice Wall as soon as she tried to trade hits with me and then kite along the wall. Low level Ice Walls don't slow that much so she can get away from it pretty easily if you kite away from the wall instead of along it. If she Meld hides or keep going at you you can drop a Cold Snap and kill her if you have detection (it is worth buying your own sentries after boots vs TA). If she runs away you can attack the wave while she can't.
What is the order of invokation here? Do I invoke Ice Wall initially, then Forged Spirits, then either Sunstrike (for striking another lane) or Cold Snap (if I get into a fight with TA)?
What heroes/situations other than Riki force you to go Force Staff on QW Invoker? I feel that it's a serious waste of money most of the times. All your spells have huge range, Phase+Wex MS allow you to outrun like 90% of the hero pool and there is always Ghost Walk for emergency situations. Almost every other investment seems to suit my needs better. Ultimate Orb into Void Stone into Sheepstick gives better stats, mana regen, more dmg and finally the best disable in the game. Oblivion Staff into Orchid gives sick autoattack stats, mana regen and very effective active (however not good vs hard carries). When you're short on money even Eul's seems like a better choice than Force most of the time - you can actually dodge stuff with it, purge slows to get back to your high ms, allows you to save Tornado when picking off solo heroes so you can do combos like cyclone-emp-alacrity-cold snap; this is A LOT of utility.
For me a positioning item (and ever since the force nerf I favour blink) is mostly about gaining position to hit more dudes with spells. Blink into ice wall is probably one of the most unfair ganks in the game. Also tornado and deafening blast benefits a lot from a blink because it lets you hit multiple people easier, much like a Lion going for a blink.
This is in addition to all the usual effects a blink gives. Ability to avoid things, chasing, escaping, etc
On February 11 2014 22:09 Firebolt145 wrote: My first reaction was 'why are you trying to make invoker do something he's not designed to do' but then I started wondering, what if you ran around in ghostwalk and initiated with alacrity + coldsnap + orchids? Hmm.
Just go Lothars+Cold Snap+Alacrity and snipe kids to death with invis. Ghost Walk is for escaping.
On February 15 2014 13:14 superstartran wrote: Ghost Walk is for escaping.
No it's not. After the recent patch it's good for moving across big distances, cutting off escape routes, initiating on rats with Cold Snap/Orchid/Hex, even the slow is decent. The only restrictive thing about it atm is the mana cost, but you can still use it in base for free, and it will be off cd the moment you get back to the action.
On February 15 2014 13:14 superstartran wrote: Ghost Walk is for escaping.
No it's not. After the recent patch it's good for moving across big distances, cutting off escape routes, initiating on rats with Cold Snap/Orchid/Hex, even the slow is decent. The only restrictive thing about it atm is the mana cost, but you can still use it in base for free, and it will be off cd the moment you get back to the action.
If you're going to go Cold/Snap/Alacrity, you should use Ghost Walk for escaping and Lothars/Shadowblade for initiating. That's how it's always been. The second a guy gets slowed, he knows Invoker is there. This is all big trolls type of builds, but if you're playing that style of Invoker, it's pretty much you go Sblade for the extra damage, aspd, and initiation with the ability to still escape.
On February 11 2014 20:58 beef42 wrote: A midas would really slow him down and he benefits greatly from a positioning item (blink/force) so it's a harder decision there.
I think getting an early positioning item on QW Invoker is a huge mistake. He needs items that helps him solo-kill, getting an early Orchid and then adapting a playstyle similar to Clinkz is the way to go in most games.
You sure got vindicated, bro. At the time of posting Power Rangers has just humiliated Na'Vi using a standing-in Scandal on QW orchid invoker.
On February 11 2014 20:58 beef42 wrote: A midas would really slow him down and he benefits greatly from a positioning item (blink/force) so it's a harder decision there.
I think getting an early positioning item on QW Invoker is a huge mistake. He needs items that helps him solo-kill, getting an early Orchid and then adapting a playstyle similar to Clinkz is the way to go in most games.
You sure got vindicated, bro. At the time of posting Power Rangers has just humiliated Na'Vi using a standing-in Scandal on QW orchid invoker.
"Yo liquid won this game where chen got an MKB that shit must be legit" When the score at some point is LITERALLY 22:3 (or more appropriately 3:22 huehuehue) the item choices of both sides must be taken with a grain of salt.
Orchid certainly does things on invoker but it actually synergizes MUCH better with Q/E invoker which has higher mana costs and less overall disable in favour of more dmg (both right-click and spells). Plus solo kills are really really not something Q/W invoker is too concerned about.
Not that positioning items are all that crucial on Q/W invoker either though considering how fast he moves especially with phase.
I think taking down a vanguard slardar solo but with an AA ulti is nothing to sneeze at.
edit: Just saying. He's fast, he can initiate, he can teamfight, he can ghost walk (run) around and scope out kills like a Gondar, and he can actually solo kill too. What's not to like?
i dont see why orchid just has to be for the ghost walk cold snap build. Orchid is overall a good item especially on int heroes and has good utility. You dont just have to ghost walk and cold snap, and its universal damage amplify so it even amplifies your emp tornado combos as long as you dont tornado them when its about to wear off.
On February 28 2014 11:40 edgemega wrote: i dont see why orchid just has to be for the ghost walk cold snap build. Orchid is overall a good item especially on int heroes and has good utility. You dont just have to ghost walk and cold snap, and its universal damage amplify so it even amplifies your emp tornado combos as long as you dont tornado them when its about to wear off.
It's a great utility item to have. The ability to silence any hero is always great to have, especially for a hero like invoker. I think he's best when played as a super utility style hero, and the current quas wex trend suits him the most. I don't necessarily have to be going around getting lots of kills and carrying, as long as I'm using spells correctly when needed in different situations, I'm happy. Orchid just messes up a lot of heroes who would otherwise have methods of escaping, or who cause big issues in team fights.
Going over iceiceice's and Reso1ution's Invoker games in SL9 recently, and just had a couple of questions.
1. iceiceice seems to prefer going naked Boots and go straight BoTs after necro 3. Reso1ution seems to prefer getting PTs before working on Necro. Even in situations where momentum was clearly on Empire's side, Reso1ution would play it like this. Is this simply personal preference or is there math behind this that I am missing?
2. How many points of Wex do you need before pouring in points into maxing Invoke? I've seen iceiceice play it out with just 1 point in Wex, and there was a game he went 2 points of Wex. Reso1ution seemed to favor just keeping it at 1 point.
3. It seems like the tendency is to split push with a QE Invoker and just using Sunstrike to assist with the action on other parts of the map while Invoker has not yet maxed Exort (hence no points in Wex yet). Would it be advisable to put a point in Wex earlier (before maxing exort, but after double forge) and participate in fights if the team is a bit on the backfoot? Or is it generally better to split push and take objectives to infuse a bit of gold into the rest of the team? I am not sure if maybe the lack of levels will keep you from really contributing in fights as you may not have the mana pool to actually throw out everything you have.
On April 30 2014 14:46 rebdomine wrote: Going over iceiceice's and Reso1ution's Invoker games in SL9 recently, and just had a couple of questions.
1. iceiceice seems to prefer going naked Boots and go straight BoTs after necro 3. Reso1ution seems to prefer getting PTs before working on Necro. Even in situations where momentum was clearly on Empire's side, Reso1ution would play it like this. Is this simply personal preference or is there math behind this that I am missing?
2. How many points of Wex do you need before pouring in points into maxing Invoke? I've seen iceiceice play it out with just 1 point in Wex, and there was a game he went 2 points of Wex. Reso1ution seemed to favor just keeping it at 1 point.
3. It seems like the tendency is to split push with a QE Invoker and just using Sunstrike to assist with the action on other parts of the map while Invoker has not yet maxed Exort (hence no points in Wex yet). Would it be advisable to put a point in Wex earlier (before maxing exort, but after double forge) and participate in fights if the team is a bit on the backfoot? Or is it generally better to split push and take objectives to infuse a bit of gold into the rest of the team? I am not sure if maybe the lack of levels will keep you from really contributing in fights as you may not have the mana pool to actually throw out everything you have.
One point wex early only if you absolutely have to teamfight and need to have extra dmg with Chaos Meteor/Deaf Blast. Remember, you're not gonna do much else outside of casting 2/3 spells if you went Exort early, so you better be on point with dropping the Chaos/Deaf Blast quickly.
Iceiceice plays with a team with alot better coordination and space creators than Reso1ution does (not saying Empire sucks or anything, just that in comparison, Mushi and Burning have a much bigger presence on the map by reputation alone). Having Mushi/Burning alone puts alot of pressure on teams to shut down both of them, thus opening up the offlane into a 1v1 situation for iceiceice. He gets alot more freedom on choice of items than other players because of this. There's a reason why occasionally, iceiceice is more farmed than mushi and has like a 600 gpm Centaur Warchief. You'll notice that in alot of iceiceice's games, he's typically way more farmed than alot of other offlaners from other teams.
More specifically, how often do I use forged spirits and how, is it viable in pubs, is there a scenario where I need to go quas-wex instead, how do I level, and what items do I get?
On April 30 2014 14:46 rebdomine wrote: Going over iceiceice's and Reso1ution's Invoker games in SL9 recently, and just had a couple of questions.
1. iceiceice seems to prefer going naked Boots and go straight BoTs after necro 3. Reso1ution seems to prefer getting PTs before working on Necro. Even in situations where momentum was clearly on Empire's side, Reso1ution would play it like this. Is this simply personal preference or is there math behind this that I am missing?
2. How many points of Wex do you need before pouring in points into maxing Invoke? I've seen iceiceice play it out with just 1 point in Wex, and there was a game he went 2 points of Wex. Reso1ution seemed to favor just keeping it at 1 point.
3. It seems like the tendency is to split push with a QE Invoker and just using Sunstrike to assist with the action on other parts of the map while Invoker has not yet maxed Exort (hence no points in Wex yet). Would it be advisable to put a point in Wex earlier (before maxing exort, but after double forge) and participate in fights if the team is a bit on the backfoot? Or is it generally better to split push and take objectives to infuse a bit of gold into the rest of the team? I am not sure if maybe the lack of levels will keep you from really contributing in fights as you may not have the mana pool to actually throw out everything you have.
One point wex early only if you absolutely have to teamfight and need to have extra dmg with Chaos Meteor/Deaf Blast. Remember, you're not gonna do much else outside of casting 2/3 spells if you went Exort early, so you better be on point with dropping the Chaos/Deaf Blast quickly.
Iceiceice plays with a team with alot better coordination and space creators than Reso1ution does (not saying Empire sucks or anything, just that in comparison, Mushi and Burning have a much bigger presence on the map by reputation alone). Having Mushi/Burning alone puts alot of pressure on teams to shut down both of them, thus opening up the offlane into a 1v1 situation for iceiceice. He gets alot more freedom on choice of items than other players because of this. There's a reason why occasionally, iceiceice is more farmed than mushi and has like a 600 gpm Centaur Warchief. You'll notice that in alot of iceiceice's games, he's typically way more farmed than alot of other offlaners from other teams.
doesn't icex3 start a lot of his invoker games from the middle? i have seen ones from the side as well, but in the sl9 games that rebdo is referencing i think he played a lot from the middle.
Iceiceice used to solo offlane with invoker, but I think dk sort of adapted their style with mushi at the offlane centaur, or they go aggro tri and mushi safelane solo, or aggro tri iceiceice safelane solo.
Regarding when to put additional points in Invoke, I believe it boils down to personal preference. Do you want a slightly faster Invoke cooldown or do you want slightly stronger spells? As long as you have level 4 Invoke by level 17 (so if you're sticking on one point as long as possible, you need to start putting points in at level 15 + 16), it's up to you.
On May 01 2014 16:04 Firebolt145 wrote: DK do whatever they feel like doing on a whim.
Regarding when to put additional points in Invoke, I believe it boils down to personal preference. Do you want a slightly faster Invoke cooldown or do you want slightly stronger spells? As long as you have level 4 Invoke by level 17 (so if you're sticking on one point as long as possible, you need to start putting points in at level 15 + 16), it's up to you.
Yea, there is no point putting points into invoke for exort builds before 14-16ish. You have 3 core spells, Fire Spirits/Cold Snap ready to go, and sunstrike ready to be invoked for ganks. Ghost walk, Deafening Blast and Ice Wall as subspells to invoke in emergency situations (they also all cost a billion mana).
If you were quas/wex, then you really only need 2 spells + coldsnap ready to be invoked, once again even if you have a point in exort other spells would be terrible and really bad for mana.
Well he's fun to play Yeah I guess, it's just that in games where you're on the backfoot until lategame, I find myself using necrobook almost exclusively for teamfights. And although it's decent there, I just feel that other items could have done more.
Just go QE and be a DPS monster. Get 4 points in Quas and 4 points in Exort asap so that you get two forged spirits. You only need lvl 1 invoke early, a) because you only really need three spells early-mid game (cold snap, sunstrike and forged spirits) and b) you're new to invoker so you won't be invoking that fast anyway. Then finish maxing Exort, and start levelling Wex around lvl 11 or so, for meteor and deafening blast, and also ghost walk for emergencies.
I go phase/treads, force staff then necro3 and hex. I don't think the aghanims will benefit you very much as a new player. After hex, it's really what your team needs, like AC, daedalus, mkb etc.... you might need a BKB too.
In teamfights, just make sure you have your forge spirits summoned, pop your necrobook, choose a target and cold snap them, then watch as they're perpetually stunned. Try and drop a meteor on grouped up enemies, followed by a deafening blast to stun them and keep them in the meteor. Ice wall is very hard to place correctly, but it's such a good spell. You can also invoke and use Alacrity on yourself or another carry on your team. Sunstrike is good for picking off stragglers at the end. Honestly, most new invokers just run around with cold snap & forge spirits and are effective enough. Then as they get more confident, they start adding other spells to their repetoire.
Small trick: You can also alacrity catapults or forge spirits or necro minions to speed up your push while keeping yourself at a safe distance. Remember that catapults deal like 200% dmg to buildings or something.
How do you decide between going QW or QE? I have been playing mostly QE, but I think I need to play more of QW. What match-ups would you choose QW over QE? Do you still go midas or necro?
I like QW when i feel like my team has enough damage in teamfights and it would be more useful to play more field control and ulitity, normally phase force is my main core on qw (ur not that item dependant) If i feel like they lack damage and then i perfer QE and just go midas, necro off of brown boots
I also typically like qw against strength heavy team comps. Strength heroes are typically melee (qw kites like a god with tornado, cold snap, and the movement speed bonus) and usually have low mana pools as well, so a good emp can turn them into puny right clickers.
i cant bring myself to play qw. exort invoker's too much fun. spend the first 10 minutes missing all your sunstrikes and then relax by ricing and pushing with forge spirits/necro creeps. what a nice hero.
I feel like QW is ideal if you already have alot of dmg potential and/or teamfighting abilities. QE is more for snowballing high dmg output if your team lacks dmg
Why every carry player that I play with is obsessed with "ganking"? If I play Invoker, an Exort Invoker and I'm dominating my lane, why the fuck should I leave the lane to gank without a good 70% of killing someone?
Medusa is 1-11 and he was like "fuck invoker, no gank" please stop pretending ganks, is frustrating.
Yeah, especially when they for the ganks while u have low lvls of Quas so ur cold snap isnt even that great, just giving sunstrike potential is pretty good enough considering there are normally 2 supports hanging around somewhere
I like: E -> Q -> R -> ?. as QE invoker. Didn't see this build mentioned in the guide. E at 1 to last hit, Q at 2 for earlier coldsnap (and you regen by going eee right before attacking)
this build gives you a bit less damage at 3 but null/branches and 1 E is enough in most lanes + you can bully earlier
On May 30 2014 17:52 Veles wrote: I like: E -> Q -> R -> ?. as QE invoker. Didn't see this build mentioned in the guide. E at 1 to last hit, Q at 2 for earlier coldsnap (and you regen by going eee right before attacking)
this build gives you a bit less damage at 3 but null/branches and 1 E is enough in most lanes + you can bully earlier
Going Q at 2 won't give you an earlier coldsnap lol, but I normally still go Q at 2 because lvl 1 sunstrike is pretty underwhelming.
Also, yeah getting a forge spirit out at lvl 3 will greatly help your last hitting in lane.
On May 30 2014 17:41 FrozenProbe wrote: Why every carry player that I play with is obsessed with "ganking"? If I play Invoker an, Exort Invoker and I'm dominating my lane, why the fuck should I leave the lane to gank without a good 70% of killing someone?
Medusa is 1-11 and he was like "fuck invoker, no gank" please stop pretending ganks, is frustrating.
Because fucking trenchers think ganking is a part of the mid role (while the support role means afking in the safelane, just soaking xp.) You can't gank with exort invoker, perhaps if you for some reason waddled up and took a haste, but otherwise neveeeer.
Yeah, only with haste is possible to gank well but even with that.. you can kill or support with sunstrikes, is enough. It's not the mid's role to protect the carry, especially if he is a really dumb overextender. In those low level games they pick medusa or other hard carries when we have only 1 support in team, and he will afk farm without buying couriers and wards. So ez lane will feed and they will blame the others on the team "cuz no gank noob report"
On May 30 2014 17:52 Veles wrote: I like: E -> Q -> R -> ?. as QE invoker. Didn't see this build mentioned in the guide. E at 1 to last hit, Q at 2 for earlier coldsnap (and you regen by going eee right before attacking)
this build gives you a bit less damage at 3 but null/branches and 1 E is enough in most lanes + you can bully earlier
The problem with E Q R is that you have to wait for an entire cooldown of Invoke to have both Sunstrike and Cold Snap available. If you go E R Q then Invoke usually goes off cooldown right as you hit level 3.
Good point fb. When do you guys start adding forge spirits in the lane? I'm starting with 2E and 1Q and I get a quick basi to sustain it, but I see some people like adding them from lvl 3 :o
id only commit the mana for forge spirits if i was facing someone like pudge, where you can use the spirit to block the hook and also help with the harass since pudge already has like garbage armor
I start using forged spirits as early as lvl 3. They basically make your last hits and denies incontestable. Also you never know when a cold snap opportunity will present itself.
On May 30 2014 17:52 Veles wrote: I like: E -> Q -> R -> ?. as QE invoker. Didn't see this build mentioned in the guide. E at 1 to last hit, Q at 2 for earlier coldsnap (and you regen by going eee right before attacking)
this build gives you a bit less damage at 3 but null/branches and 1 E is enough in most lanes + you can bully earlier
Going Q at 2 won't give you an earlier coldsnap lol, but I normally still go Q at 2 because lvl 1 sunstrike is pretty underwhelming.
Also, yeah getting a forge spirit out at lvl 3 will greatly help your last hitting in lane.
By faster, I mean compared to E R E Q
invoking lvl 1 ss is generally pretty worthless and getting Q at 2 heals you up a bit.
@firebolt I don't think the invoke cd really matters there b/c you want forge + coldsnap anyway most of the time
Invoker need some sort of fix, he has always been strong, the ghostwalk movementspeed is just silly, he moves faster than a godamn clinks ffs in ghost walk.
He is suppose to be a jack of all trades, not do anything better than anyone.
Still his ghost walk is faster after the buff than clinks. i think in his ghost walk he also should have a nerfed vision(worse than night) tbh.
also tornado emp, tornado is not the issue here the emp is, it drains to much mana.
A minor nerf on that,
Remember the strenght of invoker is that he is jack of all trades, that means when some of his spells are better than other guys.somthing is wrong.
So I've been playing invoker a lot lately. I practiced with him in 30 bot games, before I actually started using him in pubs and eventually I'll move into ranked.
I play QW invoker. I start with a point in quas and then make cold snap at 2. Then I mostly focus on wex. At lvl 13 I put a point into exort. Once I have 4 points in quas I max out exort and max quas last.
My item build has been: Phase -> Wand -> Euls -> Aghs -> Sheep
I've never made it past sheep.
Are my items and build okay? Also a lot of people seem unfamiliar with invoker's moves. They don't seem to realize the reason pa wasn't doing anything was because I used DB and he can't attack for 4 seconds.
On June 20 2014 14:07 Fumanchu wrote: So I've been playing invoker a lot lately. I practiced with him in 30 bot games, before I actually started using him in pubs and eventually I'll move into ranked.
I play QW invoker. I start with a point in quas and then make cold snap at 2. Then I mostly focus on wex. At lvl 13 I put a point into exort. Once I have 4 points in quas I max out exort and max quas last.
My item build has been: Phase -> Wand -> Euls -> Aghs -> Sheep
I've never made it past sheep.
Are my items and build okay? Also a lot of people seem unfamiliar with invoker's moves. They don't seem to realize the reason pa wasn't doing anything was because I used DB and he can't attack for 4 seconds.
Don't need to have such a fixed item build with invoker. For qw build you usually want orchid and play like pseudo clinkz, although opting for force blink Agha etc all work. I'm generally not a fan of eul on non exort builds though.
On June 20 2014 14:07 Fumanchu wrote: So I've been playing invoker a lot lately. I practiced with him in 30 bot games, before I actually started using him in pubs and eventually I'll move into ranked.
I play QW invoker. I start with a point in quas and then make cold snap at 2. Then I mostly focus on wex. At lvl 13 I put a point into exort. Once I have 4 points in quas I max out exort and max quas last.
My item build has been: Phase -> Wand -> Euls -> Aghs -> Sheep
I've never made it past sheep.
Are my items and build okay? Also a lot of people seem unfamiliar with invoker's moves. They don't seem to realize the reason pa wasn't doing anything was because I used DB and he can't attack for 4 seconds.
Eul's on QW Invoker is garbage. It doesn't synergize with any of his main skills.
Agreed, Euls is good on QE because a) exort invoker is pretty mana intensive, b) the movespeed is useful for him, and c) you can do that nice euls -> sunstrike -> meteor -> deafening blast combo
Idk, I like Euls on QW since it makes it really hard for you to get silenced/caught out and killed. Of course, Orchid has a higher payoff, but I think that in a more defensive game, focusing on teamfights with items like Euls FS and Sheep might be the way to go.
Got like 800 games played. Still have literally never picked this guy. I don't think I have the speed and decision making required to invoke the right spells, aim them, and not die. Anyone else totally terrified of invoker? He's like the only hero I don't play
You should pick him up just to give it a shot. Worst case scenario is he doesn't mesh with your style. He's my favorite hero at the moment due to his ridiculous versatility.
Definitely give him a try, i found out that the "memory" of spells which is meant to be terrifying really isnt, infact just practice in a lobby with -wtf invoking spells for a bit, after that spells arent ur problem, its decision of spells and when to use them, overall i think hes made overscary just by omg he has soooo many spells when really unless ur like aghs, refresher lvl 20+ ur probably sticking to a small number of core spells and then some special case ones, like QE forge spirits, coldsnap, meteor, are core and sunstrike, deafening blast, icewall(<-my favourite), alacrity is just situational. Same goes for QW tornado, emp, coldsnap and then bunch of situational spells. You end up getting use to spells pretty fast in my experience harder stuff comes after.
I'll give him a shot in some bot games. I was pretty scared of meepo until I played like 10 games with him. Now I feel like it's second nature to toss nets and poof nerds to death. Wish me luck lol
On July 09 2014 13:47 ReligionLOL wrote: what build do u guys do for qe and qw in the new 1v1 pratice mode? I guess qw standard build works, but for qe you cant really go midas right?
you wouldnt, but in regual team game as qe you would go midas. thats what im saying. the only reason you might go midas in 1v1 is so you can actually pratice your "normal" build in team games. I mean id assume most people playing 1v1 pratice mode is so that they can pratice their mid games, not so they can win in that niche 1v1 mode game.
On July 09 2014 14:08 ReligionLOL wrote: you wouldnt, but in regual team game as qe you would go midas. thats what im saying. the only reason you might go midas in 1v1 is so you can actually pratice your "normal" build in team games. I mean id assume most people playing 1v1 pratice mode is so that they can pratice their mid games, not so they can win in that niche 1v1 mode game.
but my question is left unanswered. say we are playing 1v1 mode as qe invoker and we want to win. we will not do the standard build for 5v5 games (fast midas). but what to build instead? I was thinking a fast euls so you can get guaranteed sun strikes
treads/phase + wand + null tali + null tali + null tali + null tali if it makes it past that any cost effective item like blink euls mom vanguard hood dagon etc would probably be ok
As someone new to the hero who wants to learn, should I learn QW invoker or QE invoker first? QE looks more fun/appealing to me because of the pushing potential and damage you get, but it seems like quas wex is much stronger in this meta, and tornado emp, ghost walk cold snap combos (the list goes on) are really good.
QW/QE are only opening builds. at some point you are going to learn and use every spell. QE is more straight forward and fun at the beginning from my experience that is why most beginners will use it to learn do the first steps with him. after some point you will try out different variations. by the way: the "meta" doesn't dictate how you do things its the other way around (common mistake).
ah yeah you're absolutely right, definitely dependent on a game-to-game basis what would work better, looking at the opponent's heroes. and yeah makes sense, eventually you'll be using most if not all of the spells depending on the situation. thanks for the advice!
- It's a good opening vs tough lane opponents since you get very high autoattack damage (also from your spirit/s) and regen - It's really good if you plan on staying on lane for a longish time since you push really fast and defend vs any pusher (you can hold against a veno easily) while contributing with sunstrike now and then. The health regen helps to stay forever. - It's good for an early necro rush since you can pretty much stay until you farmed it. also synergizes well with it. - fastest push opening - You won't have mana problems since your main spell is very cheap.
- But It's an immobile build. You'll get outganked and you don't have the utility a Wex invoker provides. - You don't have a great defense vs ganks, since your only disables are coldsnap and icewall. Also you don't get the MS from Wex. - You won't be invoking spells until much later. This can be an upside for beginners. Agh rush is not recommended on this build, Wex is better suited for it.
If you can plan on staying in lane and you think your other lanes can too or will straight up win then this is a very strong opening. But if there will be alot of action and deaths going on then probably not. It's a good build to get alot of early t1/t2 towers against a more passive team. And I recommend it to beginners since you farm easily, have a higher health pool and regen and you won't be invoking too many spells until later.
edit: my recommended build would be something along the lines of: brown boots + small item (+ health from early belt) -> mek + necro 1, 2, 3 + travel -> agh
On August 28 2014 00:16 clickrush wrote: I want to confirm/add to the 4q 4e opening:
- But It's an immobile build. You'll get outganked and you don't have the utility a Wex invoker provides. - You don't have a great defense vs ganks, since your only disables are coldsnap and icewall. Also you don't get the MS from Wex. - You won't be invoking spells until much later. This can be an upside for beginners. Agh rush is not recommended on this build, Wex is better suited for it.
Why would Agh's rush be better suited for QW? What build would Agh's rush be good with anyways? I think most of the time you wouldn't need the Agh's upgrade early on since either the spells are on cooldown or would require more mana...
Tbh i really dont like aghs rush, i think aghs get only relevant when you have some levels in exort as well as in wex. Most guides i read delay the second lvl or invoke because you have only 3/4 (E/W) spells you want to use anyways until later on (and invoke lvl 2 is barely an upgrade). That being said while i have never seen it win in pro games, i have seen aghs rush even on exort, so there has to be a good reason for it aside from being fun.
@QE vs QW for beginners: QW is imo way harder to play and use (aside from ice wall, which is more or less optional at the beginning), so I recommend starting with QE and get used to the whole invoke stuff first. And while QE was already weaker in the laning phase pre-patch, i have read people complaining that the cold snap nerf killed it's threat in the laning phase entirely, so by no means it is better in the current meta.
Agha rush is rubbish on invoker. The usefulness of Agha is seen only when you have a good mana pool, and good levels, both of which means you should be at high levels and have at least 1 item prior to it.
its not as rubbish as you make it sound though. a shorter invoke cd and no manacost i super useful early on for clutch moments. you dont have to spam with it and still play mostly with say tornado emp but youll have the abilty to switch to coldsnap/dblast/ghostwalk much quicker and for free in tight situations.
Question: Is it ok to max quas before getting exort in a QW build to maximize cold snap damage if you're planning to be a fake clinkz? Or is it not worth it to go past 4 levels of quas?
I would never max quas first ever, the emp damage increase and mana drain as well as the tornado distance scaling from wex is way too good to pass up, not to mention the extra MS while in ghost walk, and once you have wex maxed, getting more exort increases your dps so much, you're only getting 7 damage per level of quas, if you hit 5 times during quas (without the attack speed from wex you won't be hitting that fast) that's what, 35 extra damage per level? not worth it
On August 29 2014 23:32 Checkm8 wrote: Question: Is it ok to max quas before getting exort in a QW build to maximize cold snap damage if you're planning to be a fake clinkz? Or is it not worth it to go past 4 levels of quas?
No, there's a reason as to why people were crying about invoker nerfs, because leveling quas kills off pretty much all the other offensive/disabling capabilities you have.
Tbqh I'm starting to think that if you're NOT a safelane sunstrike-happy voker, as mid, I'd almost just have one point in wex or exort (depending on which build you go) early on for alacrity into kill as well as safety/flexibility.
As Quas-Exort, you should leave one skill-point floating until level 8. If you need Wex, you can instantly skill it and use it. If no situation came up where you needed Wex, then you can still be 4-0-4-1 at level 9.
To be clear, the point where u need wex is when u need to go invis to save your life mostly. Grabbing wex for meteor or tornado or something is not going to work well since the 1 point makes those spells really mediocre when compared to having dual forge spirits asap.
Unless there's like a 5-man black hole occuring right in front of u in which case go ham with the meteor dude
Meteor's sort of a bad example because Meteor's damage specifically ONLY scales off Exort, and Wex only scales range, so with Eul's, it's still a worthwhile component of your combo in ganks/solo-kills because Eul's gives you time to get in range anyway. Usually you won't finish Eul's that early though even if you're getting it 1st item.
On August 30 2014 00:27 TheYango wrote: As Quas-Exort, you should leave one skill-point floating until level 8. If you need Wex, you can instantly skill it and use it. If no situation came up where you needed Wex, then you can still be 4-0-4-1 at level 9.
I should try this but I think I still want the earlier pts in exort or quas if I'm laning for spirits/heal/dmg so I dunno, maybe I'd save the point/put it in early if I know that I'm not gonna win the lane no matter how hard I try or if a shaman's sitting in my lane for 10 minutes trying to shackle me
Obviously you're not gonna do something stupid like not skill at level 1, but you wouldn't skill Wex at level 1 either. I meant past the point where you'd consider ever taking a point in Wex, because the Wex point does very little for you outside of giving you Ghost Walk anyway.
Basically most of the time you'd consider taking Wex before level 9 as QE, you should probably instead consider holding the skill point because actually skilling Wex doesn't outweigh delaying your 4-0-4 by a whole level if it turns out that you didn't need Ghost Walk.
On September 07 2014 18:11 75 wrote: so i need to play invoker in the all-hero challenge and i have no clue about that hero. what "build" would you suggest for a 2k-2,5k player?
ques exort rush midas into necro is pretty good ..
4-0-4-1 to get double forge spirits, null/tango, boots into midas into necro 3 is my standard build, early on make a control group with your forge spirit and hero and just last hit, harass some if you want, ignore all calls to gank unless it's with sunstrike, push down your lane, push down another late, push some more, and keep pushing
On September 07 2014 18:11 75 wrote: so i need to play invoker in the all-hero challenge and i have no clue about that hero. what "build" would you suggest for a 2k-2,5k player?
Trying to make this as noob friendly as possible:
Quas Exort. Flexibility in starting point but Q/E -> invoke (snap or sunstrike) -> exort -> all points to exort till 4 then max quas (keeping invoke at level 1), dual forge spirit rush. If you're strugging then just ignore point in wex, and keep feeding in exort. (wex can be useful for ghost walk to avoid deaths and DB + meatball combo
Just go phase, drums force, staff.
This is a pretty basic but effective build. If you're solo farming and getting experience you'll easily be able to take 1v2 fights early midgame.
You can also go 4-1-4-1 by lvl 10 then go phase euls. If you're hunting someone euls him>sunstrike>meteor>deafening blast. It might take some practice on how to time it, but if timed well even heroes with blink will still take a spill. In teamfights you can go tornado>meteor>deafening blast. It's quite devastating.
Exort builds are 99% always better if you just skip phase most of the time. Try getting midas and go necrobook3. The 900g goes a long way and you aren't damage starved for laning with exort. I'm sure you'll be fine pushing and winning that way 75.
If you're going the Phase + Euls build then you shouldn't go 4-1-4-1. Instead you should be maximising your Exort as much as possible to increase the damage of entire combo.
On September 12 2014 03:28 ZerG~LegenD wrote: 4-1-4-1 lets you max Exort at the earliest possible level. On the way there double forge spirits are more useful than an extra level of exort.
I mean the euls-build is designed around solo kills as early as possible. Since its quite likely that you will get a euls AROUND level 10 (this build would presumably sacrifice a midas in favor of early kill power), you want to be as deep into exort as possible for that level (so 2-1-5-1 at level 9). Yes 4-1-4-1 is far more stable but thats a midas first farming/pushing build that doesn't focus on the ability to solo kill with the euls combo. You could even justify the 2nd point in invoke if you were going the combo build simply because you kinda have to reset ur invokes (sunstrike + meteor invoked and have it off cooldown to invoke deafening blast).
I think you'll find yourself getting just as many solo kills with 4 points in exort as 5. I play the Euls build with a 4-1-4 opening and I've never failed to kill my target when the combo hit.
Whats the value to the extra quas points? you literally can't invoke forge spirits with level 1 invoke unless you know you don't need to euls cannon anybody for over a minute. Which isn't THAT long but it's long enough to make it so that you should EITHER prioritize dual spirits and push with midas->necrobook OR prioritize max combo damage with exort + euls (and items like force to catch the opponents).
If you go 4-1-4 dual forge then buying a euls makes limited sense since your whole goal is to push and farm with dual forge spirits. The cooldown on invoke makes it too hard to try to be both an exort combo build and a q/e summons build.
Its sure worth keeping them up to push towers and pick up some extra farm some along the way. If someone comes along and wants to die when you have spiritis invoked you can eul and sunstrike and walk up to them and attack them to death with cold snap and spirits. There are very few situations where the nuke combo would have gotten the kill but your summon combo wouldn't.
Why would you get euls with double forge spirits though? Going towards a necro3 is going to help you push more, and maxing exort with euls is going to help you kill more. Trying to do both at the same time ends up with fewer towers and fewer kills.
Been playing 1 position invoker recently. More or less standard but I really go all out on the split push instead of building aghanims or similar. So:
Midas, Necro 1, Travels, Necro 3, Manta, AC, Hex
I think this is possibly the best rat hero/build in the entire game. Like prophet but your summons actually do damage, you have invisibility without buying a shadow blade and you have a lot more utility especially in defending your base. You can drop your combo, do a lot of damage and clear a creep wave, then tp to a sidelane and split push really fast. I like to drop my spirits/manta all the time, and save my necrobook for a fight/tower. They need to use a big hero to stop spirits/necrobook. If some support tries to stop this push they can die to the summons/sunstrike.
What's your Manta timing? Because I feel that the hero itself is wasting a Pos 1 spot. So i'm asking the Manta timing because I can't really imagine a team where their pos 1 doesn't get a Carry Item until 30 minutes.
On April 26 2015 16:34 bardtown wrote: Been playing 1 position invoker recently. More or less standard but I really go all out on the split push instead of building aghanims or similar. So:
Midas, Necro 1, Travels, Necro 3, Manta, AC, Hex
I think this is possibly the best rat hero/build in the entire game. Like prophet but your summons actually do damage, you have invisibility without buying a shadow blade and you have a lot more utility especially in defending your base. You can drop your combo, do a lot of damage and clear a creep wave, then tp to a sidelane and split push really fast. I like to drop my spirits/manta all the time, and save my necrobook for a fight/tower. They need to use a big hero to stop spirits/necrobook. If some support tries to stop this push they can die to the summons/sunstrike.
I'm really having fun with this.
It was played quite a bit in progames 3 or 4 patches ago, when heroes were overall slower, but they usually went for forecestaff or dagger after necrobooks and then hex/BKB. You never want BKB on any hero, but you just can't skip it more often than not. It was still focused on grouping with your team to take early towers thanks to necro+forged, ask a drow pick if you want to end the game really fast :p
I've had a lot of messy games so far, so the timing has mostly been after 30 mins. Once you have travels and book3 your farm accelerates a LOT though. You tend to be farming 2 lanes at once or one lane and jungle, taking towers and taking roshan with just a little help. Also, it's invoker, so manta is not core to his ability to fight and you're usually in a good position to stall and get kills regardless of slow progression.
My GPM is usually about 550 at the end of a game. Not amazing, but I'm winning against trolls and snipers with much higher GPM anyway, and I'm sure I can get higher if I have some better early games.
On April 26 2015 16:34 bardtown wrote: Been playing 1 position invoker recently. More or less standard but I really go all out on the split push instead of building aghanims or similar. So:
Midas, Necro 1, Travels, Necro 3, Manta, AC, Hex
I think this is possibly the best rat hero/build in the entire game. Like prophet but your summons actually do damage, you have invisibility without buying a shadow blade and you have a lot more utility especially in defending your base. You can drop your combo, do a lot of damage and clear a creep wave, then tp to a sidelane and split push really fast. I like to drop my spirits/manta all the time, and save my necrobook for a fight/tower. They need to use a big hero to stop spirits/necrobook. If some support tries to stop this push they can die to the summons/sunstrike.
I'm really having fun with this.
It was played quite a bit in progames 3 or 4 patches ago, when heroes were overall slower, but they usually went for forecestaff or dagger after necrobooks and then hex/BKB. You never want BKB on any hero, but you just can't skip it more often than not. It was still focused on grouping with your team to take early towers thanks to necro+forged, ask a drow pick if you want to end the game really fast :p
But ratting is so much more fun :D and I don't need the BKB because I don't need to stay on the lane once spirits and manta illusions are down. Dagger could definitely be useful but I don't think it's necessary if you're careful about where you tp.
Well people tend to pick some sort of silence hero when they see invoker, and it's usually a case of dropping minions and getting out of sight, like if you were playing tinker.
On April 26 2015 16:34 bardtown wrote: Been playing 1 position invoker recently. More or less standard but I really go all out on the split push instead of building aghanims or similar. So:
Midas, Necro 1, Travels, Necro 3, Manta, AC, Hex
I think this is possibly the best rat hero/build in the entire game. Like prophet but your summons actually do damage, you have invisibility without buying a shadow blade and you have a lot more utility especially in defending your base. You can drop your combo, do a lot of damage and clear a creep wave, then tp to a sidelane and split push really fast. I like to drop my spirits/manta all the time, and save my necrobook for a fight/tower. They need to use a big hero to stop spirits/necrobook. If some support tries to stop this push they can die to the summons/sunstrike.
I'm really having fun with this.
It was played quite a bit in progames 3 or 4 patches ago, when heroes were overall slower, but they usually went for forecestaff or dagger after necrobooks and then hex/BKB. You never want BKB on any hero, but you just can't skip it more often than not. It was still focused on grouping with your team to take early towers thanks to necro+forged, ask a drow pick if you want to end the game really fast :p
But ratting is so much more fun :D and I don't need the BKB because I don't need to stay on the lane once spirits and manta illusions are down. Dagger could definitely be useful but I don't think it's necessary if you're careful about where you tp.
It was in a rat way, pressuring one side lane very deep all the time. But now that people all run at 450+ ms, summons are just less scary. The whole point of those BoT are also to abuse the space created to join your team to outnumber them in fights elsewhere/take roshan while threatening towers. I don't think you can afford to skip fights entirely on any hero.
I never liked when players go for a fixed build/style. Every time my ally picks prophet and says I will split push this game, I know its a crap prophet that doesn't adapt and that I have loss the game from the start.
idk if anyone has touched on this since it's worked this way for a while but because urn is pure damage now it triggers cold snap. at first thought it doesn't seem that good but both have such a long range and the stuns trigger as quickly as possible because of the continuous damage that you could actually use it to initiate on solo heroes without using tornado
On April 27 2015 16:28 ViZe wrote: idk if anyone has touched on this since it's worked this way for a while but because urn is pure damage now it triggers cold snap. at first thought it doesn't seem that good but both have such a long range and the stuns trigger as quickly as possible because of the continuous damage that you could actually use it to initiate on solo heroes without using tornado
Urn works on snap again?!?!? Time to start getting it again.
On April 27 2015 15:55 DucK- wrote: I never liked when players go for a fixed build/style. Every time my ally picks prophet and says I will split push this game, I know its a crap prophet that doesn't adapt and that I have loss the game from the start.
Probably your attitude killing the game as opposed to the prophet :p. A lot of heroes have only one way to play. Invoker has many many, but you should have a plan from the start as to which route you will take, and if somebody has worked out their own build that they like and know how to play then your chances of winning should be going up not down.
Urn seems like a great item if you're playing offlane or something. I guess mid too, seeing as you're not going to pick up a bottle.
Edit: As for manta. It probably is a bit of a gimmick. I like to be able to drop 6 units and gtfo. There are situations where this probably would be the best item choice: they have silences and not much aoe perhaps. Generally though AC may well be the better item.
On April 27 2015 15:55 DucK- wrote: I never liked when players go for a fixed build/style. Every time my ally picks prophet and says I will split push this game, I know its a crap prophet that doesn't adapt and that I have loss the game from the start.
Probably your attitude killing the game as opposed to the prophet :p. A lot of heroes have only one way to play. Invoker has many many, but you should have a plan from the start as to which route you will take, and if somebody has worked out their own build that they like and know how to play then your chances of winning should be going up not down.
Urn seems like a great item if you're playing offlane or something. I guess mid too, seeing as you're not going to pick up a bottle.
Edit: As for manta. It probably is a bit of a gimmick. I like to be able to drop 6 units and gtfo. There are situations where this probably would be the best item choice: they have silences and not much aoe perhaps. Generally though AC may well be the better item.
If you like just dropping shit and running away mjolnir is probably worth considering. Pop necro, put the buff on the necro warrior or a creep and run it out in front of the wave. It actually does a ton of damage. Sure it does less damage to towers than manta but it pushes a lot faster. It's not particularly good overall on invoker but neither is manta lol
Octarine is better for the more drawn out fights because of the lifesteal and reduced cooldown on your spells, (although imo the lifesteal is negligible because you'll be throwing out most of your damage at the beginning of a fight in most circumstances) but if fights hinge on you having as much impact as possible in the first few seconds of a fight, aghs is probably the item of choice.
Octarine is also 1600 gold more expensive than aghs, so keep that in mind as well.
At least, this is how I see it by looking at the stats of the two items. I haven't tried octarine core first over aghs.
On June 17 2015 13:53 Fencar wrote: I don't think it's better "in general" if it gives X benefits while aghs gives Y benefits.
Considering that by the time you acquire core or agha invoke should be at rank 4, the gain from agha over core is simply 1+ second quicker CD on invoke. There's really not much point insisting on landing a 4 spell combo when you don't have refresher. Meanwhile core allows you to use your 9spells more often as well. So I would say core is better in general.
I mean if you have nine spells then aghs lets you cast more of them earlier in a teamfight, which can be more useful than 25% cd reduction on everything, at least in some scenarios.
And again the fact that octarine costs 1600 gold more can be a problem, even if octarine is preferred in many situations.
On June 16 2015 23:09 Fwizzz wrote: so guys which do you think should prioritize more? Octarine or aghs?
I would say that octarine is better than going agh if your game is really good and you are farming very well. But I would classify octarine as a luxury and an extendable item. I don't see a situation where you would want to rush ocatarine first over agh because in that mid-late game transition period, the quick spell switching is very critical and the 3 second difference does play a huge role. After you are able to pull off a 3 spell combo, the little things like doing a cold snap, alacrity or ghost walk is very critical. Having to accomodate the extra 3 seconds each time can be quite bothersome sometimes and I generally prefer going for Agh first simply because I have more control.
You don't even rush an agha. Core costs only 1600 more, which isn't much when you consider the point when you want to get either agha or core, that is your 4th or 5th item.
Tbh i usually don't go octarine or agha on invoker. I almost always go qw with early orchid into deso and then sheepstick/daedalus/mjollnir based on the game
On June 19 2015 21:37 Gotuso wrote: Do people still go Midas as his first big item or is that too greedy?
Its still very common to see a Midas rushed on the Quas-Exort builds because you need those double spirits quickly as possible. Much less common to see on the quas-wex builds because you aren't rushing for a specific level of spell so much as just hoping to get some good tornado/emp/cold snaps off and maybe get lucky on a few runes to make ganks easy. Its a lot better with QW to just rush things like orchid/deso/etc
Yesterday I played QE Invoker mid against Templar Assasin and got completely destroyed, by level 6 she was diving me under my tower with refraction and I couldn't do anything to survive. Is there a way to deal with TA, o is it just a very unfavorable matchup? Would QW opener be better? Are there any other heroes I should watch out for when going mid as Invoker?
On June 20 2015 14:19 PoulsenB wrote: Yesterday I played QE Invoker mid against Templar Assasin and got completely destroyed, by level 6 she was diving me under my tower with refraction and I couldn't do anything to survive. Is there a way to deal with TA, o is it just a very unfavorable matchup? Would QW opener be better? Are there any other heroes I should watch out for when going mid as Invoker?
When you're vs TA, you need QE for the extra hits from the forge spirit. Flank him out to the side so he's not really in a line with the creeps, and help it take off all the defensive instances. Then harass with sunstrike/ice wall if he uses meld and cold snap once the instances are gone with a spirit out really melts TA at level 4-5. Definitely don't forget the Meteor/Cold Snap combo either if TA tries to get down in the river area and can't see high ground casting! TA is dangerous, but not unmanageable with an invoker. This IS the most versatile hero in the game after all. QW seems like it would be alright, but your single attack rate with level 3 wex will not take the instances off faster than simply having a secondary unit.
On June 20 2015 14:19 PoulsenB wrote: Yesterday I played QE Invoker mid against Templar Assasin and got completely destroyed, by level 6 she was diving me under my tower with refraction and I couldn't do anything to survive. Is there a way to deal with TA, o is it just a very unfavorable matchup? Would QW opener be better? Are there any other heroes I should watch out for when going mid as Invoker?
When you're vs TA, you need QE for the extra hits from the forge spirit. Flank him out to the side so he's not really in a line with the creeps, and help it take off all the defensive instances. Then harass with sunstrike/ice wall if he uses meld and cold snap once the instances are gone with a spirit out really melts TA at level 4-5. Definitely don't forget the Meteor/Cold Snap combo either if TA tries to get down in the river area and can't see high ground casting! TA is dangerous, but not unmanageable with an invoker. This IS the most versatile hero in the game after all. QW seems like it would be alright, but your single attack rate with level 3 wex will not take the instances off faster than simply having a secondary unit.
Thanks, I'll try to do that the next time I face TA, never thought of using ice wall
As for QW, how should I skill it? Max W>Q>E with one point of E around level 13 for Blast/Alacrity?
On June 20 2015 14:19 PoulsenB wrote: Yesterday I played QE Invoker mid against Templar Assasin and got completely destroyed, by level 6 she was diving me under my tower with refraction and I couldn't do anything to survive. Is there a way to deal with TA, o is it just a very unfavorable matchup? Would QW opener be better? Are there any other heroes I should watch out for when going mid as Invoker?
When you're vs TA, you need QE for the extra hits from the forge spirit. Flank him out to the side so he's not really in a line with the creeps, and help it take off all the defensive instances. Then harass with sunstrike/ice wall if he uses meld and cold snap once the instances are gone with a spirit out really melts TA at level 4-5. Definitely don't forget the Meteor/Cold Snap combo either if TA tries to get down in the river area and can't see high ground casting! TA is dangerous, but not unmanageable with an invoker. This IS the most versatile hero in the game after all. QW seems like it would be alright, but your single attack rate with level 3 wex will not take the instances off faster than simply having a secondary unit.
Thanks, I'll try to do that the next time I face TA, never thought of using ice wall
As for QW, how should I skill it? Max W>Q>E with one point of E around level 13 for Blast/Alacrity?
Well, keep in mind there's a lot of ways to do QW. My preferred way is taken from Dendi/Chessie/Arteezy pub streams so keep in mind my way is probably more "pubby" and less "pro".
I skill it alternating Q and W until level 9 when you have 4401, then I skill almost exclusively W until its maxed. The only exception is level 10 or 12 when I get 1 point in E just for full spell library access. The money combo you spam is tornado/emp/cold snap. Level 3 Q means snap gets a lot of procs and damage and Level 3+ W is where your Tornado/EMP combo really does some damage and burn (still needs levels though). Still though, the purpose of this build is much more teamfight combos and utilizing right-click power through a deso and daedalus or something to finish them off while cold snap procs. Consider the Orchid->Deso->Daedalus path when doing this.
Oh, and you'll probably run into a bunch of dumbasses who have no idea what or how Invoker is played and will try to scrutinize "lol right click voker what a n00b". Just sit tight knowing you are executing a strategy type these people don't even know exists much less can add to their arsenal like you!
On June 20 2015 14:19 PoulsenB wrote: Yesterday I played QE Invoker mid against Templar Assasin and got completely destroyed, by level 6 she was diving me under my tower with refraction and I couldn't do anything to survive. Is there a way to deal with TA, o is it just a very unfavorable matchup? Would QW opener be better? Are there any other heroes I should watch out for when going mid as Invoker?
When you're vs TA, you need QE for the extra hits from the forge spirit. Flank him out to the side so he's not really in a line with the creeps, and help it take off all the defensive instances. Then harass with sunstrike/ice wall if he uses meld and cold snap once the instances are gone with a spirit out really melts TA at level 4-5. Definitely don't forget the Meteor/Cold Snap combo either if TA tries to get down in the river area and can't see high ground casting! TA is dangerous, but not unmanageable with an invoker. This IS the most versatile hero in the game after all. QW seems like it would be alright, but your single attack rate with level 3 wex will not take the instances off faster than simply having a secondary unit.
Thanks, I'll try to do that the next time I face TA, never thought of using ice wall
As for QW, how should I skill it? Max W>Q>E with one point of E around level 13 for Blast/Alacrity?
Well, keep in mind there's a lot of ways to do QW. My preferred way is taken from Dendi/Chessie/Arteezy pub streams so keep in mind my way is probably more "pubby" and less "pro".
I skill it alternating Q and W until level 9 when you have 4401, then I skill almost exclusively W until its maxed. The only exception is level 10 or 12 when I get 1 point in E just for full spell library access. The money combo you spam is tornado/emp/cold snap. Level 3 Q means snap gets a lot of procs and damage and Level 3+ W is where your Tornado/EMP combo really does some damage and burn (still needs levels though). Still though, the purpose of this build is much more teamfight combos and utilizing right-click power through a deso and daedalus or something to finish them off while cold snap procs. Consider the Orchid->Deso->Daedalus path when doing this.
Oh, and you'll probably run into a bunch of dumbasses who have no idea what or how Invoker is played and will try to scrutinize "lol right click voker what a n00b". Just sit tight knowing you are executing a strategy type these people don't even know exists much less can add to their arsenal like you!
Thanks mate, much appreciated! Now, it's time to spam 50 Invoker games and actually learn how to press all the buttons in just the right way ^^
I feel invoker is fairly squishy, when you go orchid deso what do you build for hp ? drum ? Or do you rely on the invis to avoid the aoe death that awaits you ?
On June 21 2015 06:50 zdarr wrote: I feel invoker is fairly squishy, when you go orchid deso what do you build for hp ? drum ? Or do you rely on the invis to avoid the aoe death that awaits you ?
Its true he's pretty squishy going the right click build. He's very much a glass cannon until later when he has more items. I usually build drums only when doing the QW build as otherwise its not necessary to get the atk speed. The drums really allows you to stunlock with 3 wex on cold snap too along with your phase giving you the added damage on the snaps.
Only skip drums straight to orchid if you get like 3 or more kills before 10 minutes or are otherwise unusually fed.
Sometimes when I play this hero I invoke something and then try to cast it immediately and end up casting the thing that used to be in the spell slot instead.
EX I have forged spirits (d) and cold snap (f) invoked, then press R with 3 exort invoked and immediately press D to cast sunstrike (with quickcast) and end up casting forged spirits instead.
Going QE, I level it at 14/15 after exort is maxed, I have 4 points in quas, and 1 point in wex. I don't find the cooldown reduction to be as good as more damage for my rightclicks, spirits, sunstrike, meteor, and alacrity.
On June 26 2015 08:27 Fencar wrote: Sometimes when I play this hero I invoke something and then try to cast it immediately and end up casting the thing that used to be in the spell slot instead.
EX I have forged spirits (d) and cold snap (f) invoked, then press R with 3 exort invoked and immediately press D to cast sunstrike (with quickcast) and end up casting forged spirits instead.
This happen to anybody else?
Nope :D Legacy. The maybe 1 thing in the entire game that using a suboptimal hotkey system (because I'm used to it) is good for.
On June 26 2015 08:27 Fencar wrote: Sometimes when I play this hero I invoke something and then try to cast it immediately and end up casting the thing that used to be in the spell slot instead.
EX I have forged spirits (d) and cold snap (f) invoked, then press R with 3 exort invoked and immediately press D to cast sunstrike (with quickcast) and end up casting forged spirits instead.
This happen to anybody else?
I use legacy keys, so I don't have such problems.
And yea seems like I'm doing the same with everyone for higher ranks of invoke. I think i should be doing that for both QW and EQ builds?
On June 26 2015 08:27 Fencar wrote: Sometimes when I play this hero I invoke something and then try to cast it immediately and end up casting the thing that used to be in the spell slot instead.
EX I have forged spirits (d) and cold snap (f) invoked, then press R with 3 exort invoked and immediately press D to cast sunstrike (with quickcast) and end up casting forged spirits instead.
This happen to anybody else?
I had never had this happen beffore until I read it here. Now I have had it happen at least once almost every game when I input too fast.
So I just played a game where I went qw invoker, completely dominated the early game, got like a 12 min orchid after solo killing sf twice in lane and I was 18-3 at one point. My build was orchid>deso>daedalus (kinda trolly I know but I usually always go this build) My build was a really strong right click build and I cast my teamfight combos and just alacrity'd myself and wiped the floor in fights. But come 35 min their sven blinks in and just 3 shots me while my carry gyro has gone sb aghs and working on his mkb. I dieback and we straight up lost. In games like this where I cannot rely on my carry what is the build, or even style of invoker to play (is qe better to carry?)
On June 30 2015 21:15 manicmessiah wrote: So I just played a game where I went qw invoker, completely dominated the early game, got like a 12 min orchid after solo killing sf twice in lane and I was 18-3 at one point. My build was orchid>deso>daedalus (kinda trolly I know but I usually always go this build) My build was a really strong right click build and I cast my teamfight combos and just alacrity'd myself and wiped the floor in fights. But come 35 min their sven blinks in and just 3 shots me while my carry gyro has gone sb aghs and working on his mkb. I dieback and we straight up lost. In games like this where I cannot rely on my carry what is the build, or even style of invoker to play (is qe better to carry?)
Would be cool to have a littlebit more info, bc knowing what sven had, what your teammates did during the time sven killed you etc would be really nice.
I dont think that going pure right-click invoker is a bad choice in the case that your carry is retarded/underfarmed/both, but against blink sven you need some mobility/survivability if your team is a 1-core team by that point. Ghost scepter, euls, halbherd, (as long as he doesnt have bkb), forcestaff and hex all are good items vs sven. You have three good ccs inbuilt vs him, so as long as you get bkb first and dont stand in blink range (so he can blink->stormhammer before yo can react) you should be fine. QE is a right-click build, much of your damage comes from the amplified alacrity. You have 0 cc though and tbh against heroes like sven or ursa you dont want to try to outburst them usually.
AC, BKB, or sheepstick may have been a better pickup in that situation over daedalus. These items give you something new, whether it be immunity to stuns so you can always rightclick/run/cast/whatever, armor for you and your team and -armor for their team plus attack speed, or the strongest control item in the game.
On June 30 2015 21:15 manicmessiah wrote: So I just played a game where I went qw invoker, completely dominated the early game, got like a 12 min orchid after solo killing sf twice in lane and I was 18-3 at one point. My build was orchid>deso>daedalus (kinda trolly I know but I usually always go this build) My build was a really strong right click build and I cast my teamfight combos and just alacrity'd myself and wiped the floor in fights. But come 35 min their sven blinks in and just 3 shots me while my carry gyro has gone sb aghs and working on his mkb. I dieback and we straight up lost. In games like this where I cannot rely on my carry what is the build, or even style of invoker to play (is qe better to carry?)
if sven is the main threat you probably needed to stay back / have a force staff / ghost scepter / bkb (just for stuns) and make sure you, as the most dominant player on your team, was not going to be the one oneshotted by the sven
in general, any voker build has issues with bkb carries that can just destroy you while they have their bkb, you have to play around that and not die to it
but if you're playing a right click build (generally not advised if you have other right click carries on your team), you need to play like a hard carry who's deathly afraid of dying so that you can get your damage out after the enemy team blows all their spells and initiation
mobility items like force staff and blink are probably good for sniping heroes (with ghostwalk to get in or out) and getting out of danger but if they're playing as a 5 man blob you just need to stay away from it until bkbs wear out then tornado / emp / deafening blast
On June 30 2015 21:15 manicmessiah wrote: So I just played a game where I went qw invoker, completely dominated the early game, got like a 12 min orchid after solo killing sf twice in lane and I was 18-3 at one point. My build was orchid>deso>daedalus (kinda trolly I know but I usually always go this build) My build was a really strong right click build and I cast my teamfight combos and just alacrity'd myself and wiped the floor in fights. But come 35 min their sven blinks in and just 3 shots me while my carry gyro has gone sb aghs and working on his mkb. I dieback and we straight up lost. In games like this where I cannot rely on my carry what is the build, or even style of invoker to play (is qe better to carry?)
You decided to go for a glass cannon route, you jolly well play like one. You're suppose to be afraid of heroes jumping on you, so you should never be in the front line hitting, but either doing the clean up or sniping the back line heroes.
My 6 slot during this game was Eul Sheep Travels BKB AC Shivas. Was that OK for this game? I feel like a RFO may have been stronger than either the AC or Shivas for the sake of double deafening blast lategame(10 seconds of no Sven/Alch attacking), but it's hard to tell. :\
On July 19 2015 13:25 Fencar wrote: My 6 slot during this game was Eul Sheep Travels BKB AC Shivas. Was that OK for this game? I feel like a RFO may have been stronger than either the AC or Shivas for the sake of double deafening blast lategame(10 seconds of no Sven/Alch attacking), but it's hard to tell. :\
I feel like a 6 slot invoker without blink is wrong. I also think Shivas is a waste of gold. I probably would have replaced Shivas and eul with rfo and blink.
Not sure if that would have helped though. The ember is way under farmed.
With the way my item progression turned out, idk if I could have skipped Euls. I think it was pretty crucial for setups, but then maybe not. I could have sold it and bought a Blink, but at the same time I thought it was useful for holding people to setup a combo or just to disable them for a couple of seconds.
against sven and alch shivas is not a waste of gold. It is probably one of the best items he could've gotten. 15 armor and a 45% aura AS debuff is huge. I don't see anything wrong with the build other than the euls at 1 hr. Refresher is obviously the best replacement for euls, 10s bkb, double blast, double meteor, double sheep, etc.
whether it is better than AC or shivas is arguable. Given everyone on the enemy team had BKB it's not out of the question that waiting for the opportunity to blast someone means half your team is already dead.
I noticed a well known player who mains this hero and he commented that phase boots is worth picking up on Exort Invokers right now because of the phase ability no longer being broken by spell casting. I know this would greatly help Wex builds but is there any legitimacy for the Exort Phase versus lineups you can't afford to be greedy against?
The discussion was a build designed to get 1-1-1 in QWE by level 3 and tornado Ember if he uses flameguard and procede into 4-1-4 by level 9.
My right click qw invoker build that already has >80% winrate over previous 2 patches. A non-orchid build that focuses on own development instead of suppressing enemy's farm. Effectiveness of orchid will fall off at one point once you don't kill enough heroes.
Phase into bottle then midas and maelstrom. Bottle is a must have for non-orchid sustain. Nobody can contest runes against you due to tornado emp. Maelstrom is a damage steroid with attack speed of midas and wex orbs. Midas and maelstrom seems like "weak" items but the early game strength of qw invoker is so strong nobody wants to teamfight into you, so you make use of this timing to get ahead even more. Excellent split pusher with maelstrom that is incredibly hard to kill due to ghost walk and tornado.
Go whatever right click items that fit the situation, bkb, hex, mjolnir, ac, shiva, mkb, daedelus. Continue pumping quas after maxing wex. You want wex orbs on at all time for max dps when you have damage items equipped, thus there is no need for exort. Adding quas will add more hp and strengthen CCs spells. 6s cold snap, 1.75s aoe stun with 4s disarm rape every non-bkb heroes. Ghost walk for hex initiations and disengaging during enemies' bkb duration.
This hero is actually OP once you realize you can just run around at >450ms, right click people with 300 damage 3 times per second with alacrity on top of 5 CCs spells and innate windwalk ability.
How many normal games, a decent invoker will advise I need to play before I go into ranked for I have 10 games with the hero and I want to get better at him?
On January 21 2016 19:44 SatsuinoHado wrote: How many normal games, a decent invoker will advise I need to play before I go into ranked for I have 10 games with the hero and I want to get better at him?
Depends on how high your MMR is in ranked and whether you just want to play a one build invoker or be able to adapt your build to your opponents' heroes.
I'd say 5 to 10 games if you want to start having fun with a full Exhort invoker, spamming the Eul Sunstrike Meteor combo.
20+ games if you want to be efficient with a teamplay build like Quas/Wex or Wex/Exhort
and 50 + games if you want to be able to adapt your build to the team your facing (this required more game in my opinion as you'll have to be aware of most spells and combos, eventhough the build you pick has you focused on a few ones during each game)
And regardless of all that, late game invoker requires 50+ games of practice at least, I'd say 100+ if you want to include refresher in the mix. It's just a very deep hero with lots of possibilities, several different skill builds, and pretty much as many different item builds as there are items in the game. And keep in mind not all games go to late game so you don't practice your late game invoker in every game.
That's one of the basic use for sure yes But there's so much more to it, slightly changing your hero's angle to slow someone ahead of you, using it to scout in trees, including it in several combos instead of Deaf Blast etc etc etc...
On January 22 2016 01:21 Logo wrote: I see a lot of Quas Wex Invokers just completely ignore the spell. It makes me sad.
probably because they dont have a point in exort yet? or they dont have enough levels in invoke yet. problem with qw invoker is you have 3 spells you always use (tornado, emp, cold snap) and your 4th is usually alacrity/dfb/ghost walk if you can even wait around long enough for the 4th spell cant use many spells until you have like 3 points in invoke tbh
On January 22 2016 04:24 SatsuinoHado wrote: Fuck me for 5k mmr i need 100 games at least i guess next few months i want to play invo ill go for normal.
I have 5k I have 100 games on invoker
I'm still shitty as fuck with it, miss spells, cast wrongfully, dont combo right, etc.
On January 22 2016 04:24 SatsuinoHado wrote: Fuck me for 5k mmr i need 100 games at least i guess next few months i want to play invo ill go for normal.
I have 5k I have 100 games on invoker
I'm still shitty as fuck with it, miss spells, cast wrongfully, dont combo right, etc.
I still have a 50% wr tho.
That's because eul sun meteor blast combo is usually enough to win you games via tempo. Or ghost walk orchid snap emp. You don't need to be a great invoker to win games, just the basics :D
On January 22 2016 04:24 SatsuinoHado wrote: Fuck me for 5k mmr i need 100 games at least i guess next few months i want to play invo ill go for normal.
I have 5k I have 100 games on invoker
I'm still shitty as fuck with it, miss spells, cast wrongfully, dont combo right, etc.
I still have a 50% wr tho.
That is what I am afraid as well I will go on mass Invo picks for like 100+ games and still feel like 2k invoker
yeah well invoker isnt one of those heroes where mindlessly grinding games suddenly makes you good at him. actually that goes for every hero i can think of, but its especially relevant to invoker because hes just capable of so much.
More so for invoker because basic invoker plays is sufficient enough to win you games, which could lead to a false sense of feeling pro with the hero. As i mentioned earlier, you can rely on just mainly eul sun meteor blast (and later tornado emp meteor blast) to snowball through games. Alternatively you can rely on tornado emp snap or ghost walk orchid snap emp (into dps) to do so. Even refresher combo is not hard to pull off.
But that's just basic invoker plays. You utilise just these set of combos all the time, and they still allow you to snowball because of the solo kill/aoe potential. To be on another level would be to master how to land ice wall, use icewall to waste a Bkb carry's time, disengage and reengage with ghost walk, knowing when to use alacrity, knowing how to deal with mass Bkb, varying your skills etc.
Personally I wouldn't shy away from using invoker in ranked if you're not good with the hero because of just how much you can do with the basics. You can slowly familiarise with the more advance stuff along the way.
Can anyone give me a quick rundown on the playstyle and item choice differences between what I assume are the two invoker styles (QW and QE)? I'll eventually get around to analysing professional players but would like a short summary to start off with. A bit of info into skill build would be useful too.
to generalise qw invoker is for more control whereas exort invoker goes for damage. if youre qw invoker you want to be active around the map due to high movespeed and relatively shorter skill cds + long range and good disables. items are pretty versatile; orchid/euls/blink/force/aghs/travels/phase/hex/bkb etc exort invoker depends on whether youre going qe or just going max exort. qe invoker wants to farm a lot and splitpush lanes, typically going necro 3 and travels to assist with this. you dont see qe invokers walking around the map with a euls trying to blow shit up because its far better to just go max exort with like 2-3 points in quas and an early wex for that. they try to just keep farming with forge spirits and throw the occasional sunstrike for kills. the other exort invoker is the euls one, where you euls the target and do the commonly seen sun->meteor->dfb combo. this invoker also does the most damage in teamfights too, so theres that. also midas is very good on exort invokers in particular since the aspd is pretty nice and the levels are so important. qw invoker could get it too but not as important since its main spells come from qw only and dont require lots of points in e until later
On February 15 2016 08:09 evilfatsh1t wrote: to generalise qw invoker is for more control whereas exort invoker goes for damage. if youre qw invoker you want to be active around the map due to high movespeed and relatively shorter skill cds + long range and good disables. items are pretty versatile; orchid/euls/blink/force/aghs/travels/phase/hex/bkb etc exort invoker depends on whether youre going qe or just going max exort. qe invoker wants to farm a lot and splitpush lanes, typically going necro 3 and travels to assist with this. you dont see qe invokers walking around the map with a euls trying to blow shit up because its far better to just go max exort with like 2-3 points in quas and an early wex for that. they try to just keep farming with forge spirits and throw the occasional sunstrike for kills. the other exort invoker is the euls one, where you euls the target and do the commonly seen sun->meteor->dfb combo. this invoker also does the most damage in teamfights too, so theres that. also midas is very good on exort invokers in particular since the aspd is pretty nice and the levels are so important. qw invoker could get it too but not as important since its main spells come from qw only and dont require lots of points in e until later
Eh, I disagree with the notion that qe and exort are fully distinct styles in 6.86, just look at Sumail's pub games:
His preferred build is double forge spirits by level 9, then 6 points in exort by 11, while his typical items are midas -> euls -> drums. He uses the double forge spirits to farm hard while still maintaining the ability to pressure the enemy team with solo kills with the euls combo. The fact that you can now be 4/1/6 and still have invoke by level 11 makes it much stronger than it used to be.
QE and exort can be played the same way. I think necro qe has not been favoured recently. Most open with eul after midas, and is still capable of doing the usual sun meteor blast combo.
Anyway have you guys watched the video on how vurtune deals with Bkb/jugg/naix heroes? What a beauty. Blink -> blast -> meteor -> sun -> refresh -> blast -> sun -> alacrity -> blink out. You can't press Bkb at all. Or blink -> blast -> icewall -> sun to deal with them earlier.
Also because of his need for levels is mid the only place for him? Is there any chance at all of him working in a dual or tri lane or a possible cold snap roamer?
not skilling invoke is pretty common especially for qw invoker. youre usually rotating the same 3 spells so you dont need quicker invokes until later. the item build for qw invoker is pretty versatile as said already, so he probably just went with whatever he felt was necessary (didnt look at the dotabuff link so no idea what the matchups were). invoker went mid usually because qw invoker was the first build pros played often and invoker turned out to be a monster at ganking. when exort builds started getting popular a lot of people played him in the safe lane because he was less mobile and had global presence anyway. he requires farm more than levels. a lot of farm means you can get more levels easier, but no farm means youre not going to get levels at all. you can put him in a dual lane and blow people up with sunstrike and cold snap, or you can put him in a dual lane and go we invoker and just right click the fk out of people. tri lanes are usually overkill for him as he does need exp and usually doesnt need a 2nd support. offlane invoker is decent too with qw since hes fast, has good regen and can make a decent impact with just 3 spells.
can someone give me some quick tips on how to hit your spells late game?
it seems like very often late game i am throwing out tornado and meteors and just hitting no one with them and losing a lot of games because of it
do i just need to wait for someone else to initiate? and be a LOT more conservative with my spells? it seems like i should play with the mindset like that because right now its pretty game-losing what i'm doing
i'm sort of the kind of person who initiates fights and invoker isn't really that style from what i can make out
you should almost always be the one to initiate because tornado's range is ridiculous and if you know your timings, your big teamfight combo is disgusting. really disgusting.
just whatever you do, don't tornado a target that is already being initiated on or else you are that guy.
On May 19 2016 20:17 FFGenerations wrote: can someone give me some quick tips on how to hit your spells late game?
it seems like very often late game i am throwing out tornado and meteors and just hitting no one with them and losing a lot of games because of it
do i just need to wait for someone else to initiate? and be a LOT more conservative with my spells? it seems like i should play with the mindset like that because right now its pretty game-losing what i'm doing
i'm sort of the kind of person who initiates fights and invoker isn't really that style from what i can make out
i go eq with 1 in w at 9 or whatever
tnx
The invoker teamfight combo is honestly one of the few things best practiced in an offline lobby, because it's one solid string of clicks that you'll need in muscle memory. Before scepter, it's nado -> meteor -> invoke blast. Tip: blast is like Mirana arrow in that you can fire it before they land from nado and if they fall into it they're still pushed. Therefore you always wanna fire blast a moment before they land from nado.
Once you get scepter, add in EMP between nado and meteor. Follow up with cold snap and right clicks. With blink you can mix in ice wall.
You need to initiate with a long range tornado, or have a high level in quas (which is bad) if you want to mix in emp before octarine. Just an aghs is not enough.
if youre missing all your spells then its either: 1. you have terrible mouse accuracy 2. you are in clear vision of them and they arent distracted enough to not see your spells coming.
the first problem i dont think any of us could help you with the 2nd problem you can solve by staying out of sight or using blink/force etc to either close the gap or quickly change the direction from which your spells come from etc. if youre initiating then you always start with emp tornado (without aghs). if you arent initiating then you go emp, meteor and dfb. invoker has good right click but when you have aghs and maybe octarine, you want to make sure youre moving around a lot, rather than holding your position and right clicking. a good ice wall is infinitely better than you landing 5 right clicks, a cold snap on a far away target for someone else to secure a kill is better than you focusing the nearby target who will end up dying anyway. also you will be using spells like ghost walk for escape, forge spirits and alacrity in between meaning you dont really have time to just be sitting there right clicking people (unless you can win even by just doing that anyway).
invokers a pretty hard hero in that you have to understand really well when and how to use his spells. all his spells are very impactful but have high cooldowns, but you dont want to be waiting forever to get a 'perfect' spell off either.
also, with aghs the wombo combo sequence is emp, tornado, meteor, dfb. this combo can be done with as little as 3 points in quas as long as youre quick with your fingers. with the dfb change people with bkb and force etc will still get them off, but that doesnt really change with higher lvls in quas anyway.
thanks guys maybe ill have a bot game to refresh my accuracy and timings my muscle memory is pretty decent tho i've been having some bad games lately (ie playing badly) and lost some confidence
i noticed a few pages ago on this thread someone said that sometimes when they invoke a new spell and use it, they cast the old spell, which shouldn't happen. i'm not sure if the poster was saying THEY were making the mistake or if there was something buggy going on.
anyway i've been using a very cheap keyboard with easy-to-press keys instead of my chunky mechanical, and i've been having a notable number of instances where sometimes i invoke and use a spell and the wrong spell gets cast (or sometimes both cast at the same time ie golem sunstrike). i obviously thought i was going crazy/playing shit at first but i have looked at my fingers and seen them on the correct buttons when its happened. i put it down to this cheap-ass keyboard being faulty until i saw that post
i also use quickcast and realised i am inputting SUPER fast sometimes , like DADADADA speed
i have never gone octarine core in my life, my go-to build is phase blink aghs (gem/wards) refresher. is there a good reason i would go octarine over refresher? (occaisionally i go midas before blink , rarely scythe instead of refresher and a few times trying out blink force staff, but really my sample size is very small i guess)
i should read this thread sometime coz probably a lot of things are in it
*goes to order a new keyboard now coz fuck this one, it moves all over the place *currently wedged in place with a king size bottle of ketchup* and that's not counting the weird wrong-cast/multi-cast issue which may or may not be my fault or a keyboard fault....*
edit: oh hrmm maybe i should consider building a euls a lot more often than i do, which is rarely (i go blink aghs)
cuz octarine gives u more consistent cooldown reduction over refresher. i think there is rarely a need for refresher unless ur team is relying on u to do all the dmg with double meteor deafening blast
hrmm maybe i should consider it then , there are games where refresher hasnt been "necessary" and i dont really even get to use it, and games where i am like "just wait my refresher and we will win"
*edit actually scythe would be my go-to item in that case, but ill keep my eyes open for when octarine might work
i think octarine comes after aghs in most games because it benefits u much more to be able to cycle through all ur spells more often. ice wall, cold snap, tornado and deafening blast offer a great deal of control (even after their nerfs)
ok i'll try it out *went and ordered the Razor Deathstalker, fuck it
i just tried octarine and it was sick, meteor was off cooldown in like 1 second lol
also its definitely a keyboard issue that double cast shit, it happened twice this game , its not even when switching spells afaik, i just cast golem and it cast ice wall at exactly the same time
What do you guys think about mek -> arcanes -> (pipe) -> guardians -> aghs on a 4 0 4 invoker? The pipe is optional ofc. The early pushing power of 4 0 4 invoker is really good. The early mek helps alot and usually comes very fast on invoker. There has to be some sort of synergy with your team so you can push early with mek. Since 4 0 4 invoker deals high sustained damage the survivability on that build meets the need of being tanky enough to make use of right clicks.
On May 28 2016 11:44 clickrush wrote: What do you guys think about mek -> arcanes -> (pipe) -> guardians -> aghs on a 4 0 4 invoker? The pipe is optional ofc. The early pushing power of 4 0 4 invoker is really good. The early mek helps alot and usually comes very fast on invoker. There has to be some sort of synergy with your team so you can push early with mek. Since 4 0 4 invoker deals high sustained damage the survivability on that build meets the need of being tanky enough to make use of right clicks.
Pretty sure miracle went that build in a drow push strat. Got vlads as well. Was a good timing push then, as the right clicks were too painful, and the team being backed by healers like dazzle.
vlads seems to fit here as well yes. I didn't have drow in my team but there was tons of AoE magical damage on the opponent so I thought why not get a fast mek and pipe. It ended up being a really nice build because it makes invoker and his spirits pretty tanky so you can rightclick way more on stuff. We also had a lineup which can push early but we didn't have drow, but I can see how that works too.
edit: actually pipe and vlads can be interchanged depending on the opponent in that build.
think it's pretty game dependent, ppl often dont stack when they should, which makes mek somewhat of a gamble. You also gimp your lategame if you don't go midas. Drums allows your fs to deal more damage and the mobility allows for an easier waving in and out of the teamfight. Invo often has to build items that amplify his farming speed as well as his damage output, so I agree that usually I'd rather draft a pos 3 or 4 that builds a fast mek like tide, ds or eni.
On May 29 2016 01:17 Blackfeather wrote: think it's pretty game dependent, ppl often dont stack when they should, which makes mek somewhat of a gamble. You also gimp your lategame if you don't go midas. Drums allows your fs to deal more damage and the mobility allows for an easier waving in and out of the teamfight. Invo often has to build items that amplify his farming speed as well as his damage output, so I agree that usually I'd rather draft a pos 3 or 4 that builds a fast mek like tide, ds or eni.
Correct. Even though Miracle has done this build several times in competitive, I do not recommend doing so in public games. Competitive games are different from pubs. You don't have the same coordination and communication to pull off such a timing based build. Best to just play standard.
Idk you can pull of things with mek that are powerful and give you an advantage without much coordination. But I can see how it is not a goto build. Just seems to be quiet good sometimes.
I could see mek/pipe being good in particular drafts. It's another one of those things that just requires too much coordination from teammates to reliably execute in pubs though.
I keep getting this coordination thing. But what doesn't require coordination? Getting an early midas also requires coordination because now you significantly weakened yourself for the midgame. People fight early and often in pubs, thats why mek rush is really good. Someone ganks somewhere, use tp, mek and your awesome spells, turn it around. You get ganked, same thing - the tp. You see 2-3 of your teammates grouped near a tower, go there and spam on your mek so they know you have it for sure. I don't know where the amazing coordination is here. Ofc if you know everyone is gonna be passive then by all means don't buy it, but the generalizing about mek needing pro level coordination is really getting weird.
Often times people are just doing their own thing in pubs which makes the mek choice over midas potentially scary but if your team is on the same page it's all good. Usually when I play invoker and try something early game centric I end up regretting it as I won't scale as effectively but with a dedicated pushing strat this wouldn't be an issue of course. Solar crest was a pretty fun early pickup though, combined with forge spirits people really melt ridiculously fast.
It's not like it requires insane amounts of coordination but if your team refuses to group up and try to take objectives early or misplays the tower fight you're really going to wish you had a different item in that slot.
I'm not necessarily saying it's a bad build, makes about as much sense to me as mek sf, both heroes have great pushing power at the early stages and can farm the mek quickly. I'm with Provocateur on this one, if your team is on the same page it could be really strong.
Hey guys, Invoker is one of my favorite heros and I think I am decent playing it at my 4k MMR rating. There are some heroes I really struggle against, maybe you could give me some insight on how to deal with them or what I should basically do.
I am mainly playing Quas Wex Invoker because it fits my general team-fighting oriented playstyle and my "better miss a kill instead of getting killed afterwards" attitude. It also allows me to go for a gank or two if I can get a nice rune.
Heres what I do in the laning stage: last hitting (which Im not very good at, I need to practice that a lot I think) and trying to stay alive.
Heroes I struggle against and are currently picked a lot:
- Tinker (mostly because of my bad lasthitting combined with his laser) - Kunka (so much harass from the stupid blade )
Any recommendations on how to deal with that/new starting items (i usually go with tango, ferry, two iron branches -> brown boots with first rune)
U should try to practice exort invoker when you can, he's a better laner and he is generally higher impact late. His builds are easier to execute, too.
regardless of build, you want to start null with 2 pooled tangos then a salve and a basi, then brown boots (or boots then basi). Exort usually goes midas, qw opts for phase/urn or something similar
Vs any melee laner, null+ basi + forged spirit means they won't get any cs
Qw in generally is more "all-in", you have to destroy the mid game for your levels and gold or you become useless.
For QW, go for Midas after Phase Urn. Orchid is heavily reliant on you getting kills, and if you don't you just fall off. You don't really need Orchid on QW Invoker actually.
I played Exort before, I think it is kind of a one trick pony with the euls meteor combo, but I should probably try to play to the "full" extend of Invokers capabilites.
Which heroes should I go QW and which are total indicators for QE?
On August 04 2016 22:29 doc_biceps wrote: Hey, thanks for all the input!
I played Exort before, I think it is kind of a one trick pony with the euls meteor combo, but I should probably try to play to the "full" extend of Invokers capabilites.
Which heroes should I go QW and which are total indicators for QE?
Do you think Midas is a must-have on Invoker?
You either need Midas or you need to be getting tons of kills to make up for it.
Don't think of exort as the skills, think of it as farming. Forge spirits and higher base dmg mean u clear camps much quicker, and you can split/jungle better.
You can play any kind of invoker you want but I think in general QE is more flexible, farms better, and is strong all-around. QW is maybe better against mana drain prone heroes/all in push lineups
Okay, 2 games 2 wins as exort Invoker vs 2 nasty tinkers. Not bad at all what helps me most early game is the freaking salve, its so strong o_0. I mess up 1 out of 3 euls combos, but that is fine. The midas really really helps as well, guess Im going to stick with what I was told:
Actually qe is mostly played like a splitpush carry during midgame, you try to ks with ss in skirmishes and push lanes out most of the time. In difference to qw you don't actively look for kills unless you see an opportunity. Euls gives you some pickoffs if they try to def without enough commitment, but after aghs you can do that with some practice with tornado as well and while euls is convenient, blink often does the trick as well. Euls nowadays is the exception rather than the rule.
Normal item build is probably null->brown boots->raindrops/basi->(drums)->midas->(drums)->bots/blink->blink/bots->aghs. Drums is a situational item if you need to tank up more or if you want to solo rosh early.
Considering that Invoker scales exponentially with levels in difference to most heroes who cap at 11 and hard cap at 16, I think midas is pretty much core.
midas just synergizes too well with QE, u can farm jungle with forge and midas just accelerates ur lvl progress. in addition the + attack speed complements the low wex alacrity so u can attack fast AND hit like a truck.
of course he scales but you can just go and buttfuck the enemy team instead of standing there for 20 minutes like a donkey (g1 case in point). i know higher mmr games are worlds different (i am 2k) but my small experience with the hero so far is that midas is often the exception when an early blink (used well) can tear apart an aggressive opposition, catch out bad plays or give you opportunity to make tempo-changing ones from the get-go. this comes from blink lina being my fav hero. sometimes midas is good, sometimes blink midas, but sometimes blink bots is an option! that's my 2c and as i play more Very High games on new acc i hope to review it (if volvo stops giving me High games ever which are practically 2k)
in 2k you can go naked blink and you won the game already LOL
if you watched the game he done literally nothing while he afk farmed midas and drum while his team went down . same with his alc (not that alc can do anything different). i expect to see changes from him in the games today if they call for it , either more anti push (i guess, i didnt watch the rest of the players) or a more dynamic mid
On August 10 2016 02:04 FFGenerations wrote: of course he scales but you can just go and buttfuck the enemy team instead of standing there for 20 minutes like a donkey (g1 case in point). i know higher mmr games are worlds different (i am 2k) but my small experience with the hero so far is that midas is often the exception when an early blink (used well) can tear apart an aggressive opposition, catch out bad plays or give you opportunity to make tempo-changing ones from the get-go. this comes from blink lina being my fav hero. sometimes midas is good, sometimes blink midas, but sometimes blink bots is an option! that's my 2c and as i play more Very High games on new acc i hope to review it (if volvo stops giving me High games ever which are practically 2k)
in 2k you can go naked blink and you won the game already LOL
Yeah well, then again, 2k
Midas gets less effective if it takes you forever to get it (while your team is getting rekt) or you fail to use it every time it is off cd.
well the point is in (pro games) that if you don't come online quick enough then you will outright lose in 15 minutes and that is a mistake you can't afford to make. very often i am seeing it. a first item blink dagger (or maybe drums) is more often necessary than people seem to realise , i feel . it lets you make 1 or 2 plays that keep your team in a game where midas is demonstrably a death sentence
i probably shouldn't have mentioned my mmr, i was only saying it to be humble about my opinion. my track record (tho insignificant sample) in High and Very High so far is 7-2 with a KDA of 7.4 so i'm not the regular 2k player
On August 11 2016 02:08 FFGenerations wrote: well the point is in (pro games) that if you don't come online quick enough then you will outright lose in 15 minutes and that is a mistake you can't afford to make. very often i am seeing it. a first item blink dagger (or maybe drums) is more often necessary than people seem to realise , i feel . it lets you make 1 or 2 plays that keep your team in a game where midas is demonstrably a death sentence
With low levels, how do you intend to do Invoker things with early Blink? Your main arsenal is Forge Snap Sun Icewall, and the occasional team-set-up Meteor. Your Invoke is probably at rank 1. You don't even have the mana pool to support your spell usage. There's like very little plays you can do with early Blink.
blink is for positional tempo-changing plays that in higher MMR would be to help your team around the 10-20 min mark when the opponent is playing a high tempo aggressive game . you only need to do 1 or 2 things but these are 1 or 2 things you can't usually do with midas (without a great deal of game-losing risk) .
landing a key cold snap and essential rightclicks without getting yourself killed is usually enough to reset the tempo of the game. your spells are incredibly strong early and positional playmaking with 2 or 3 spells without killing yourself is monumentally higher impact than an early midas (especially if it saves you 1 or 2 towers i.e. map control)
having early game impact by using your spells with great positional advantage (and without dying) >>> having a few higher levels in your spells mid/late
o/c in a low tempo game midas is much better but how often are you seeing low tempo games atm?
its a judgement call and depends on lineups and how the teams are playing/opponent timings and how well your lanes are doing. that w33 g1 two days ago is a classic example of how midas lost him the game where blink would have enabled him. and yesterday's w33 g1 was a classic example of midas being the better choice (actually it was a close call at around 15 mins when opponent was wrapping round the radiant mid tier 2 but they got buttfucked with a positional disadvantage without voker having to do anything to attain it)
The thing is you cant really predict when midas is going to lose you the game because so much situations can be overcome through postioning, and in the instances where they are able to facerush you with no consequences from your team suggests something else went wrong.
In hindsight getting a blink over a midas may have not lose them the game at the time they did, but it slows down invoker so much so that at another timing point he would be even weaker and unable to compete. You require levels, for spells to have impact 4q4e earlier gives you insane killing power and farming options like ancients
Joining for a kill sometimes isnt even as good as farming even if u are the one to get the kill. Plus u already have sunstrike open, to impact a kill that needs ur help.
The often progression is midas, euls/drum, (bots if the game is going fine) nd aghs then blink
Your trying throw the blink in first which go against the idea of getting blink which is u have high impact skills now u need positioning to land them.
it wasnt really amazing, it was absolutely solid, but his team done most of the work. i'm fully expecting EG to take advantage of him next series ... or go home
you can honestly make the same argument for blink on most mid heroes
"if you play a tempo game and get early kills then blink > midas"
which is kinda like no shit obviously but in 100 games how frequently will blink plays win you the game vs midas outfarming/leveling win you the game? midas is just way more stable
arguably , since you scale linearly , having an extra tool/ability is going to be more powerful (or should i say game-changing) than having +X levels/+%dmg on your abilities.
in reality i don't know how much + midas gets you compared to going blink, maybe its 600 dmg in midgame with +5 mins aghs timing on average. it'd be cool if someone could quantify it
i've been going midas instead of blink recently and haven't been missing blink as much as i thought i would. but really i'm gonna drop out of this coz i don't play enough to make an assessment anymore i feel. i would like it if more people tried practicing with blink though because it is like adding another octave to the piano i feel
homies explain why drums over dragon lance i feel like the latter is 10x better at the same price point unless you're getting a specific timing for ur 5stack
Dragon Lance doesn't seem very good on Invoker; unlike a STR or AGI hero you don't get any damage from it, so all you're getting over Drums is a little more effective HP and the range bonus (which isn't meaningless on Invoker, but nor does it seem like any more of a game changer than Drums active) at the cost of 9 int, 3 damage and the attack/move speed bonus.
The other redeeming feature is that you can make Dragon Lance into a Hurricane Pike later, though I don't know how much an Invoker actually wants one of those over other items.
Depending on the game Veil could be better than either of the above (even if it's a little more expensive).
Pike sucks because force accomplishes what you need against most heroes (clock, riki) and the extra gold to upgrade can be used towards bkb/ghost/aghs/whatever you need. Best use of pikes are against melee heroes without gapclosers and by the time they are so big a threat to you they will likely have bkbs and if they don't, your spell usage + force should be able to let you deal with them.
I think that if you have a Dragon Lance and a Forcestaff already it's definitely worth the 250 gold to combine them into one slot, get +1 str, +6 agi, and the active... but I don't see a compelling case for why Invoker wants the Dragon Lance in the first place. As you say, Pike isn't so much better than Forcestaff that it greatly incentivises you to build a Lance.
(That being said, if you're in the super-lategame with money to spare and a Force Staff you can't afford to replace because of Riki/Clock/etc. you might as well buy the Lance and upgrade to a Pike, but that's not really what we're talking about here.)
Yeah I feel like the major point against dlance is just that he's not an agi/str hero. Its cost-effectiveness takes a pretty big nosedive if you don't get damage from the stats.
He also doesn't use the range particularly well because he has good range already, and also has lots of ways of controlling what gets near him, unlike drow etc. that just want to be as far away from everything as possible.
I don't think Pike is a ever good pick unless you're just trolling around.
I get that a force staff is situational when the opponents can just go up your face like clockwerk. What exactly are you getting out of a Dragon Lance btw? That's 2k that could have gone to your BoT or half of your scepter If you're talking about late game then it's probably time to drop the entire force staff because you should be 6-slotted with more valuable items anyway. It should be the support's responsibility to get a force staff and help you out anyway.
why do invoker players always go for eul/drums? I feel like invoker is much more valuable as a lategame cc than a hero that goes for early pickoffs (euls), and i tend to skip euls unless they have a silence. i usually progress my items as follows:
fitting a euls in if absolutely necessary after travels.
a lot of times having the pt booster is enough sustain such that i don't find drums necessary. i feel like invoker has a lot of trouble opening fights with low levels in wex as tornado / ghostwalk isn't that effective (and you don't want to waste a spell with low levels on invoke anyway), and turning on drums and running in is usually less effective than blinking in right away.
sure, invoker doesn't have many tools to escape ganks early on, but good positioning with a defensive ability usually does enough to get me out of a sticky situation. drums may make the cut and save me from a gank once (but i believe this is something that shouldn't be relied upon), but since invokers don't engage in teamfights that frequently prior aghs anyway having it doesn't really help. it also barely accelerates farm, esp. since when you already have two items that do that very well (travels / midas).
On October 05 2016 04:03 findingthelimit wrote: why do invoker players always go for eul/drums? I feel like invoker is much more valuable as a lategame cc than a hero that goes for early pickoffs (euls), and i tend to skip euls unless they have a silence. i usually progress my items as follows:
fitting a euls in if absolutely necessary after travels.
a lot of times having the pt booster is enough sustain such that i don't find drums necessary. i feel like invoker has a lot of trouble opening fights with low levels in wex as tornado / ghostwalk isn't that effective (and you don't want to waste a spell with low levels on invoke anyway), and turning on drums and running in is usually less effective than blinking in right away.
sure, invoker doesn't have many tools to escape ganks early on, but good positioning with a defensive ability usually does enough to get me out of a sticky situation. drums may make the cut and save me from a gank once (but i believe this is something that shouldn't be relied upon), but since invokers don't engage in teamfights that frequently prior aghs anyway having it doesn't really help. it also barely accelerates farm, esp. since when you already have two items that do that very well (travels / midas).
heya I do not play high level invoker.
I think you can say the same thing about many versatile heroes--that is, the heroes who scale well with time and money. as for the items themselves, I feel Eul's is not all about the QE setups, you know, with sunstrike meteor. it's also good for the movespeed, builds from the movespeed item (windlace) and grants mana pool.
increasingly it's more difficult for QE invoker to contribute in the map except with sunstrike and good lane heroes. it really depends on the player on invoker and if they're in touch with the rest of the map.
if you are so greedy you feel the need to rush travels after midas, in the event you're forced to fight, you are probably dying the soonest or forced to throw out one volley of spells before getting out. ofc, this immediately goes against the idea of having fast travels. point booster is not necessarily more sustain, it's just a tiny bit of added room for error and is a greedier choice that builds into an item you want third. if this item is your comparison to euls or drums, that is fair imo. however, that is truly discounting the dps increases for the charges, the setup, disjointing and tp cancel of the euls, and the build fluidity coming from windlace, which leaves it at more like a 1600cost rather than 1800.
I think your reasoning is that on the movespeed front, the money spent on drums is spent on the travels instead. that is reasonable since there is a farming spike between 8 and 15minutes because of midas and you're already into the meat of the useful levels for spells.
everyone I know of or probably will ever know of always builds some combination of basi/Aquila into drums or euls for what is by far the most popular skill build, QE. the only definitive thing i can try to say, unfortunately, is that it probably just feels better. if you build drums + 1, that comes at around 15m if you build straight travels, that is probably by 12/13m and then you are looking at a bigger lulll in item progression. blink around 17, aghs 23. it's important to understand the differences and what you're missing out during those minutes. either way, you have everything you need in and around 20m and it happens to be around the time you have 2 levels in invoke.
at the end of the day if you succeed with your build leaving nothing to be desired transitioning into your faster blink/aghs, all the power to you but remember that if you do feel a small bit of juice missing in your play during those shakier levels, it is probably the feeling that one of those two items can provide for you. try not to fall into the trap of thinking when you do make the bots blink/aghs work, that it is mostly on the back of that decision to go for it as it is very likely you could have secured the same timing of core items with the items you did not consider.
Heard Waga talk about drums once. His opinion was mainly that it helps take rosh fast and safe. Also together with Aquilla you push fast. So it's not just a fighting/survival item, it's also bought a lot because of the aura/charge on FS. Also aquilla+bracer is a lot of cost effective stats.
Euls is a nice package, but mainly bought for SS->meat ball->deafening blast combo. High lvl mmr pubs seem to shy away from it more and more, but it's still popular in middle and low mmr when people are less coordinated and pickoffs are happening more often. The main reason high lvl pubs don't play it anymore seems to be that aghs is more or less required for fighting and fights happen earlier and earlier nowadays. Also you can actually just do the combo with tornado once you have aghs.
midas + bots + dagger before aghs sounds suuuuuuuuuuper slow and is probably highly situational (ie you are already buttfucking beyond belief to pull that off and not feel like shit)... if you've been ganked 3x mid and just made your midas you probably feel better going for drums (or force or straight aghs) than thinking anything about bots..?
BoT vs Aghs is situational. If your team can do well 4v5 while you farm the shit out of ancients and neutrals, I'd say get Aghs first. But if you need to split push to bring back some sort of balance/gold to the map, then BoT is the way to go.
I don't see getting dagger before Aghs to be that beneficial since you can't combo that effectively without the reduced cooldown and mana costs, unless you're going Eul + Blink to pick off supports earlier on. However for that to works, you'd probably have to skip BoT until after you get Aghs, or your Aghs timing is gonna be way too late imo.
I'm just playing low MMR QE invoker so probably it'll work differently on higher skill level, but in summary this is how I normally start and proceed with my games: 1. Early game: Basi + Midas for starters 2. Mid game: 2.1 Route A: Drum + BoT for split push/farm and get Agh afterwards 2.2 Route B: Rush Agh for team fight and 5-man towers (BoT afterwards for split pushing after you've taken down half of the map with your 5-man) - Note: I generally don't think it's a good idea to go this route unless you're absolutely sure your team is on the same page. 2.3 Route C: Eul + Blink for ganking supports
The Ember thread, and Ember discussion in general was a giant shitfest, between here, PD, d2g and reddit. Although it feels pretty good to get proven right.
On release, slightly embellished:
Arcane Vanguard Flameguard is the build because TC/XBOCT/insert pro here does it and stomp their pubs - Point out that people didn't know how to play against ember, QW invoker (top tier pick at the time) was running away from the flame guard instead of just tornado off the shield and the hero is useless. It also blocked damage pre-resis so it soaks 2 max nukes at best. Sleight Chains gives you a 300 damage nuke on 2 targets every 8 seconds from 1200 range, sleight harass from a distance comparable to tidebringer, BoT rush has good synergy with Remnant to refill mana and join fight globally. Battlefury is the best damage item per slot
STFU 3k trash build, Flame Guard is f-r-e-e r-a-d-i-a-n-c-e++, you need to tank up to use it. Battlefury is garbage 1k scrub build that groups up, Desolator and Maelstrom are for uber pros, etc...
- Battlefury became core - Sing, 430, RTZ discovered the Sleight Chains build, stomped people into the ground, hero is considered broken and was nerfed around 6.81 - Envy discovered BoT "rush", made the hero a T1 pick in Shanghai and Frankfurt
I'm fairly new to Invoker. I train combos in sandbox mode custom games and try to learn how to lane in 1on1 and some unranked/smurf.
When I began playing Invoker I only learn Q/W. I wasnt good I have to admit and stopped playing him. Month later my second attempt I started to learn QE Invoker. I am pretty decent besides laning phase (no experience when I can go for a kill and I'm pretty new to the mid role (I mostly (99%) play 3rd 4th or 5th position).
To my problem: I have huge problem when to decide which way to go: qw or qe. I know which one has what kind of role (space creating, early teamfight, gank is qw mostly and more nuker, (split)pushing, carry is qe.). So I never know if I have to priorotize which build cause of team composition or cause of my laning opponent. I'm 3k, but play mostly unranked (95%) in very high (if that says anything beside "I suck at dota"). Can you give me advice if teamcomposition > laning phase? Against which heros in mid (common mids) should I go which build? Like: Vs OD: go qw since spirits get 2 shotted etc
I also watched tons of yt-videos, read lots of guides, but I still dont know when to decide which role to go.
Bonus question: as QW i drop emp then cold snap, right? or cold snap and emp in front of him so he either runs at me/to the side.
On October 05 2016 04:03 findingthelimit wrote: why do invoker players always go for eul/drums? I feel like invoker is much more valuable as a lategame cc than a hero that goes for early pickoffs (euls), and i tend to skip euls unless they have a silence. i usually progress my items as follows:
fitting a euls in if absolutely necessary after travels.
a lot of times having the pt booster is enough sustain such that i don't find drums necessary. i feel like invoker has a lot of trouble opening fights with low levels in wex as tornado / ghostwalk isn't that effective (and you don't want to waste a spell with low levels on invoke anyway), and turning on drums and running in is usually less effective than blinking in right away.
sure, invoker doesn't have many tools to escape ganks early on, but good positioning with a defensive ability usually does enough to get me out of a sticky situation. drums may make the cut and save me from a gank once (but i believe this is something that shouldn't be relied upon), but since invokers don't engage in teamfights that frequently prior aghs anyway having it doesn't really help. it also barely accelerates farm, esp. since when you already have two items that do that very well (travels / midas).
heya I do not play high level invoker.
I think you can say the same thing about many versatile heroes--that is, the heroes who scale well with time and money. as for the items themselves, I feel Eul's is not all about the QE setups, you know, with sunstrike meteor. it's also good for the movespeed, builds from the movespeed item (windlace) and grants mana pool.
increasingly it's more difficult for QE invoker to contribute in the map except with sunstrike and good lane heroes. it really depends on the player on invoker and if they're in touch with the rest of the map.
if you are so greedy you feel the need to rush travels after midas, in the event you're forced to fight, you are probably dying the soonest or forced to throw out one volley of spells before getting out. ofc, this immediately goes against the idea of having fast travels. point booster is not necessarily more sustain, it's just a tiny bit of added room for error and is a greedier choice that builds into an item you want third. if this item is your comparison to euls or drums, that is fair imo. however, that is truly discounting the dps increases for the charges, the setup, disjointing and tp cancel of the euls, and the build fluidity coming from windlace, which leaves it at more like a 1600cost rather than 1800.
I think your reasoning is that on the movespeed front, the money spent on drums is spent on the travels instead. that is reasonable since there is a farming spike between 8 and 15minutes because of midas and you're already into the meat of the useful levels for spells.
everyone I know of or probably will ever know of always builds some combination of basi/Aquila into drums or euls for what is by far the most popular skill build, QE. the only definitive thing i can try to say, unfortunately, is that it probably just feels better. if you build drums + 1, that comes at around 15m if you build straight travels, that is probably by 12/13m and then you are looking at a bigger lulll in item progression. blink around 17, aghs 23. it's important to understand the differences and what you're missing out during those minutes. either way, you have everything you need in and around 20m and it happens to be around the time you have 2 levels in invoke.
at the end of the day if you succeed with your build leaving nothing to be desired transitioning into your faster blink/aghs, all the power to you but remember that if you do feel a small bit of juice missing in your play during those shakier levels, it is probably the feeling that one of those two items can provide for you. try not to fall into the trap of thinking when you do make the bots blink/aghs work, that it is mostly on the back of that decision to go for it as it is very likely you could have secured the same timing of core items with the items you did not consider.
Been spamming it some more with the eul-drum build, and I have some new thoughts I'd like to summarize, taking into account what you've said regarding euls/drums.
As a mid-high 4k player who watched a lot of pro games, youtube videos on Miracle / w33, it is easy to think of invoker as a hero with incredible wombo combo potential as it is, and that's what most of the videos leave you the impression of. It is thus natural for myself to practice invoker heavily in some sandbox games, giving myself infinite gold with hex / aghs / octarine / refresher, and getting very solid at the combos, which I currently am. I play most of my pubs with the impression that I aim to approach this sweet spot as early as possible, and actually had great success with it. On the contrary, I did not have much success going for eul/drums, it seems like joining fights early on with an invoker, getting kills and getting out alive is actually very tricky.
I might carry on doing what I'm currently doing, or try to actually get good at early squirmishes at the hero, but to me it seems unless you are very good at reading teamfights, it's really hard to execute spells well on a low leveled invoker with ~4-1-5 without dying, getting out alive, without slowing down your item progression. Missing a spell or two when I have aghs octarine is not as crucial as there's a lot more room for error, and as long as you toss out as many spells as possible including icewall / alacrity that most people forget, so it seems like for a less than ideal player like myself, even though this build may not be the norm in higher 5.5k-6k+ brackets, it works very well in the sub-5k territory.
I'm fairly new to Invoker. I train combos in sandbox mode custom games and try to learn how to lane in 1on1 and some unranked/smurf.
When I began playing Invoker I only learn Q/W. I wasnt good I have to admit and stopped playing him. Month later my second attempt I started to learn QE Invoker. I am pretty decent besides laning phase (no experience when I can go for a kill and I'm pretty new to the mid role (I mostly (99%) play 3rd 4th or 5th position).
To my problem: I have huge problem when to decide which way to go: qw or qe. I know which one has what kind of role (space creating, early teamfight, gank is qw mostly and more nuker, (split)pushing, carry is qe.). So I never know if I have to priorotize which build cause of team composition or cause of my laning opponent. I'm 3k, but play mostly unranked (95%) in very high (if that says anything beside "I suck at dota"). Can you give me advice if teamcomposition > laning phase? Against which heros in mid (common mids) should I go which build? Like: Vs OD: go qw since spirits get 2 shotted etc
I also watched tons of yt-videos, read lots of guides, but I still dont know when to decide which role to go.
Bonus question: as QW i drop emp then cold snap, right? or cold snap and emp in front of him so he either runs at me/to the side.
There are little tips you mentioned yourself, such as forge spirit being 2 hit by OD (I still go QE against OD, though), but if you are familiar with the roles in which the two invokers play as you said you are, I can't think of any absolutely terrible matchups for one style that should shift you to go another. One advantageous matchup I can think of is QW against ember, using tornado to purge flameguard- but all in all, as the two styles are completely different with one being farm heavy and the other being gank oriented, thinking along those lines regarding what your team needs instead of giving yourself the best matchup is usually the right thing to do. Personally I go QE almost exclusively unless I'm against Ember (if i already picked; i personally love the storm/ember matchup), SF (50/50 on this one), or something cheesy like a mid Ursa.
only wish you luck on that front then. just freestyle it when you're confident in your abilities. doing the same builds every game doesn't always allow you to learn something from your games. unfortunately, it can mean you're indirectly throwing the game, but that's only one side of the coin.
increasingly as i have less time i'm playing better overall with much less games as i'm spending a lot of time and effort outside the game to be cognizant of the details and then making extra efforts disciplining myself in game. replays are great, there's always information no matter your relative level. good luck.
Are there any tricks to get your forge spirit and hero attacks to land at the same time? I seem to be losing cs often after the first lands and before the 2nd in lane.
group them together and attack at same time? if you have very good micro/apm you can give commands separately and time them based on their distance from the target, but judging by your question im gonna assume this isnt possible for you.
if the grouping together + 1 attack command doesnt work for you then its an issue of you not being able to calculate how much damage it the combined attack does
just make sure they are x distance from the creeps and you are y distance from the creeps.
if you don't use a "go idle" command to control your movement, and instead run around constantly like a *snipped*, then i guess it would be a lot harder to do that. i press D and all my units go idle until i am ready to take the last hit
also (obviously) use F1, F2 and F3 to shuffle your unit positions every so often as needed. usually you would F1 to move your hero back a little then F3 to resume control of all three of them
voker can have a pretty slow animation but you get used to it, as you get used to all heroes animations after enough conscious practice
also yes The Dream is to micro your hero and forge spirits separately within the same instant in order to score two cs at once :D
FYI when pushing with spirits and your hero, it is crucial that you make your forge spirits autoattack the creeps, and focus on microing just your hero to land the last hits. i used to group hero and spirits at the same time to push a wave but it means you are wasting so much rightclick damage waiting to score last hits when the spirits could have been autoattacking
when afk pushing with just spirits and not your hero down a lane, it is crucial to micro them to take last hits, they do so much damage you can get literally every last hit if you're fast enough, that's a free 300 gold every time you send them afk down a lane. make sure you cast spirits before you die and then micro them to get your death gold back while you're dead :p bonus points if you can steal cs from other members of your team or land denies on the opponent who thinks you're afk
the last tip is that when you go to cold snap someone, make your spirits right click him and wait for their projectile to fire before using cold snap. you opponent will be taken unaware then, and you also have time to cancel if you think your opponent is reacting too quickly to your movement
Don't know what to think of the new Invoker. Having your spells earlier is nice but still. Maybe now though we'll see more different builds for Invoker instead of a standard Aghs+Octarine every game, maybe even ressurgence of Quas+Wex.
Haven't played him yet but I suspect no. You don't want to be using that many spells early since you start off very specialised until later levels and higher mana pool. Meh.
No it does not compensate at all. And the talent of 2 Forge spirits at lvl 15 is much too late and almost useless.
The two forge spirits made invoker one of the best 1v1 heroes at 8. Made it possible to split push really hard, push towers and flash farm the jungle like mad - all while still being able to have global presence with sunstrike. The point of QE builds was to be able to farm non stop, while still being able to help your team - while not wasting time with having to gank and get kills. Getting to lvl 17 with Aghs as quickly as possible being the goal - which is slowed down soooo much now.
QE Invoker is basically nerfed hard now. one spirit means less split pushing, less tower pushing, much slower jungle farming... also an indirect nerf to cold snap as there are fewer damage sources. Also no more int from exort...
lvl 8-15 were invokers flash farming time... which is completely ruined now.
More wex points into alacrity farming and pushing? Euls for sunstrike meteor combo. That one single forge still has the same amount of damage without quas points invested. So maybe just 2 quas points for 100% uptime.
Considering how the game has become even more teamfight based, it's too early to say whether invoker has become garbage because of nerfed forge spirits. Not only it takes less xp now, the +20% xp gain talent is also huge in helping invoker reach end game.
Eul's sunstrike combo is not viable - it costs way too much mana and there are so many possibilities to get out of it. I'd go for the new Atos instead maybe? Probably not great, but better than euls. Depends on whether you can get out of the entanglement with force/bkb - will test this later this week.
But the one less forge spirit has a much bigger impact than you think. between jungle farm/push and especially less hits on coldsnap - it's pretty huge. Make the 2 forge talent level 10 instead of 15 and it might work.
I'm not saying invoker is complete garbage now. but he sure as hell has been nerfed a lot lot lot
I think that two or three points in quas are definitely viable, getting tornado disable from .8 to 1.4, permanent forge spirit, 60% ice wall slow and triple deafening blast push duration all seem like good reasons to get a few points into it. After that I assume it's the old exort invoker with some early points into wex.
Dominator might actually be a thing on this hero over drums. Maybe veil now that emp is magical and forge spirits are only half as good.
considering that the 4th point in Q is not really necessary anymore I would agree, 3 points quas. after that it will be either W voker or E voker. I will be doing mroe testing this weekend, but right now it looks to me like three points Q, then maxing W and E after looks the most interesting. especially as it seems there is much more fighting going on in this patch - and w is just too good with a tp in.
QE Invoker's bread-and-butter, the Meteor/Blast combo, is 500 mana. Sunstrike and Eul's on top of that is 850. That's pretty high. Uniquely, Invoker is affected by the loss of stats in the early and midgame, so his mana pool is dropping as mana costs are rising. So Exort-based Invoker builds are probably dead for that reason alone.
Mana is such a huge problem on Invo now. Deafening blast is 300, ghost walk is 200, ice wall is 175, sunstrike is 175, meteor is 200....
On December 15 2016 18:04 sCuMBaG wrote: considering that the 4th point in Q is not really necessary anymore I would agree, 3 points quas. after that it will be either W voker or E voker. I will be doing mroe testing this weekend, but right now it looks to me like three points Q, then maxing W and E after looks the most interesting. especially as it seems there is much more fighting going on in this patch - and w is just too good with a tp in.
QE Invoker's bread-and-butter, the Meteor/Blast combo, is 500 mana. Sunstrike and Eul's on top of that is 850. That's pretty high. Uniquely, Invoker is affected by the loss of stats in the early and midgame, so his mana pool is dropping as mana costs are rising. So Exort-based Invoker builds are probably dead for that reason alone.
Mana is such a huge problem on Invo now. Deafening blast is 300, ghost walk is 200, ice wall is 175, sunstrike is 175, meteor is 200....
I hope they rebalance his mana costs now that Invo doesn't get stats anymore. I assume the goal of the change was to make Invoker more flexible and less of a lategame powerhouse, but considering that his costs are so high I'm not sure that's fully functional yet.
I think another big hit to Exort Invoker is also that he's now increasingly squishy and doesn't really get anything from his 25 he didn't have before, so playing for lategame now isn't as viable anymore. He lost roughly a third of his max hp at lvl 25.
I also hope they swap the lvl 10 and lvl 15 talents.
i know invoker isnt a big deal right now, but recently you see lots of ppl going aquila treads into aghs without midas so you are a big more tanky etc. (+wand, clarities, drops, etc). what do you think about that? im having good results with this.
also wanna thank. i made a post about invoker here in december 2016 and recently i picked him up again (i had to learn mid role before playing him again - focusing on improving invoker and mid role is too much) and have good results. i managed to get to 4,1k eu and just had the game of my life.
also any advice vs tinker? i get dumpstered by him in lane.
On February 22 2018 02:33 Tppz! wrote: bumping this one.
i know invoker isnt a big deal right now, but recently you see lots of ppl going aquila treads into aghs without midas so you are a big more tanky etc. (+wand, clarities, drops, etc). what do you think about that? im having good results with this.
also wanna thank. i made a post about invoker here in december 2016 and recently i picked him up again (i had to learn mid role before playing him again - focusing on improving invoker and mid role is too much) and have good results. i managed to get to 4,1k eu and just had the game of my life.
also any advice vs tinker? i get dumpstered by him in lane.
I was watching a top 100 divine mid streamer who talked about the treads into aghs build.
The rationale is that it's a stronger item progression if you dominate your mid matchup; because you can hit get aghs at 14-16 mins while continuing to apply pressure on the enemy mid tower and laner. Investing 2.2k gold on midas essentially nullifies your laning gold advantage over the enemy mid and gives them openings to comeback against you.
If your lane is more contested and even then midas is your mechanic to comeback because your overall contribution is going to mostly be sunstrikes for a long time.
3k safelane/ offlane here. I agree with him not being hot stuff right now. QE invoker is almost like an AM in playstile, and if he loses the lane for me it mean that the enemy almost has to throw to win.
In itemization i think that aquila is almost core in him, you get soo much of the aura in mid lane when you push (the armor for the wave feels almost op) . Invoker QE need a ton of resources (gold and time) or a favorable team composition (that provide SS setup/ or teamfight setup) or the chance to snowball from the lane with supports ganks or solo kills. So i think that the QE style is situational at best, because most of the time your team is gonna forget that you need help and space before you can take over teamfights, and with the actual tempo of the games almost everyone knows that you can push vs Invoker with impunity (almost as bad as AM). You need items but Midas is really difficult to pull off without losing the game right there. But if you dont get aghs + dagger + mana regen/utility (linken/euls) fast enough you are useless if your team doesnt have strong teamfight synergy. I think that in a mmr bracket where supports are static and carries dont make impact in the map, you have to play QE aquila+treads (situational)+ aghs+ clarities and be very active going for kills and towers. Also pray that you dont get trashed in lane. Or you can play QW (that is not as gold starved than QE) and follow Topson ways making space by yourself and snowballing your team, making a late midas to get 6 slotted if the games draws on.
I like the hero (its so fun) but most of the time i perceive him as a liability (I have to carry this idiot who made a 13 min midas and is jungling) Invoker doesnt really need amazing mechanics (they surely help) but a lot more of game sense and teamwork to be competitive thats the point i think. So always think to yourself how can i help my team? before they flame you to no end... You need to have a clear purpose if you pick the hero. This is true for every other hero but its so easy to be at complete lost with invoker that i have to repeat it.
On February 22 2018 09:00 Archeon wrote: Imo it's precisely because he's a bit like AM that Midas is so good on him. If you play 4 protect 1 anyways, might go all the way and go greedy.
I only want to add an if. Midas is good in invoker IF used pre 10 minutes probably. Midas gives you too little. I was checking a game of mine when i thinked that i made good use of the midas (with open dota) and i was wrong, midas is not so awesome, travel is the real boosting item for invoker. And AM with BF min 12-15 can start pushing and skipping waves immediately, invoker with a midas and 3/4 scepter can not put pressure alone except of very poor supports out of position.
Is Invoker bad enough that I shouldn’t pick him in 3-4k mmm games? I used to play him a lot but I’ve been having trouble winning games with him, just getting behind in farm in the early or mid game and failing to have much impact lategame.
On March 19 2018 02:18 Fencar wrote: Is Invoker bad enough that I shouldn’t pick him in 3-4k mmm games? I used to play him a lot but I’ve been having trouble winning games with him, just getting behind in farm in the early or mid game and failing to have much impact lategame.
Invo is much harder to play at the moment, but still more than doable - especially on those MMRs (I'm at 4.4k myself, so not much higher and I spam tons of Invo).
At the moment I tend to skip midas completely - winning lanes is much too important and it feels like I don't need it and am much more useful without (depending on game/draft and early laning stage of course). I just feel like you can actually have decent impact on the mid game without it.
but between power treads, wand and aquila your early game is dead easy (ship some clarities) to win and from there you can go for drums or euls into ags depending on the game (it happens more and more often that I opt for a force staff instead lately, a bit situational though)
not quite sure how you can fall behind in farm with invo - most invos don't do anything else in the first 20mins of the game, which is exactly why he is not that easy to play anymore (winning lanes is just way too important).
get a wand and boots - don't be one of those null straight into midas people. keep shipping clarities, with your q you don't ever have to run back - a reason why farming with invo is always fairly easy. oh and also raindrops are your best friend most games!
Imo a large reason why the hero's so bad atm is that everyone in pro matches and high mmr buys a BKB between 15 and 25 mins, so Invo is kinda pushed into the very late game timing when everyone's BKB is hopefully low, you kite them until BKB run out and then aoe blast them. But the changes to butterfly and agility took Invoker's advantage in mobility away and made him really susceptible to getting caught and murdered.
Also OD f.e. is much better at kiting BKB heroes and has an early peak with his first ~6k gold, while sharing the lategame strength. A lot of lategame heroes are less vulnerable or more mobile than Invo.
On 3-4k nobody ever buys an early BKB though, so Invo and especially battle Invo can still totally function.
Archeon one of your last post says that invoker should be played as 1 in a 4 protect one team composition. That is the big problem with invoker, nobody want to protect some guy that is gonna ask for commends and take all the credit being as selfish and arrogant as it gets. And even with a team like that, youre gonna get over run by a 3 core lineup in this meta. Bkbs are no the big problem, team play and the tempo of the meta are (lane stage is all important, also there is not a single mechanic that allows you to stall in a world with lvl 25 talents and refresher orbs). Ask yourself: Your mid is gonna pick invoker are you willing to pick something to help him and to play around him? Or if you pick invoker: Are you willing to sacrifice your farm to help your team push tier 1 towers and get map control? Can you ensure that you dont lose mid? If you can not get out of lane without being a burden you shouldnt pick invoker in your bracket, that is my opinion and my answer to Fencar, If you can lane invoker pick him without worries and be active, and you shall have fun and also climb.
Meta wise if your bet to win the game is scale into 5 sec bkbs then play naga siren radiance, tinker, spectre or medusa (its a joke please). And midas is not gonna help you scale if you cant help your team to stall specially if you couldnt pressure the opposing mid, the game is gonna end long before youre relevant.
Just because many Invo mains are selfish jerks with ego problems doesn't mean every one of them is. I've met some humble and nice Invos as well
And yes, I've supported Invos I knew wouldn't carry the game time and time again and I still think that investing my time hoping that they are going to succeed enough that we have a second core for once is a better play than dumping this guy with his mediocre pick, mediocre laning, shitty farm speed and inability to hit combos. As a matter of fact I've got a guy in my friendslist whom I haven't found a reason to kick yet aside from being a terrible player who spams an underpowered hard to execute combo hero without the required APM to actually execute said combos. But I can't damn him for trying to play the hero he likes and for trying to improve on said hero.
Which btw is what you do, "don't play a hero you aren't good at" is a very detrimental way of approaching the game that is surely going to hamper your growth as a player.
@items: If you want to win with a fighting mid, pick a fighting mid. Invo simply doesn't rival the impact of a SF or OD or even DK or QoP either in lane or in early fights. That doesn't mean that you should never build treads aquilla drums agha, but it means that every time you do you could have picked an SF and might have had a far easier game.
Invo is btw fairly good at helping with the stall, he's one of the few heroes who can decently split and long range nuke creepwaves. And Midas always keeps you at the top of the pack in terms of Exp, which as you pointed out is very important due to how strong many 25 talents are.
It's kinda funny btw that you ask whether I can ensure that I don't loose mid. Nobody can ensure that he doesn't loose mid unless he intentionally feeds or is bad enough at mid and lategame that he stays at his MMR.
Archeon i feel that i have to apologize to you. I have become kind of bitter in my way to approach at the game. I respect your positive attitude. And teamliquid is a constructive site that i love so... I really dont want to discourage people trying to learn invoker.
On March 21 2018 04:56 Archeon wrote: Which btw is what you do, "don't play a hero you aren't good at" is a very detrimental way of approaching the game that is surely going to hamper your growth as a player.
@items: If you want to win with a fighting mid, pick a fighting mid. Invo simply doesn't rival the impact of a SF or OD or even DK or QoP either in lane or in early fights. That doesn't mean that you should never build treads aquilla drums agha, but it means that every time you do you could have picked an SF and might have had a far easier game.
I agree with you.
But what i want to insist is the value of learning how to lane with invoker and how to make an impact with him before 5 sec bkbs. I wholly agree with the fighting mid concept. And maybe the issue is that this meta feels like that imposes on you to play a fighting mid or stomp the other 2 lanes with is on your teammates.
Invoker is as good as you are as a "global player". You need to be not only good at combos and sheer mechanics, but map awareness and general game sense. And because of his great scaling if a player is good enough at the "macro" aspect, he doesnt even need to be able to perform a huge combo to climb. With invoker the macro can carry you really far.
If someone wants to learn invoker i think that the first thing to focus is to get out of the laning phase at the best condition posible. If you cant do that reliably then learn to lane with invoker and dont look at your winrate. Then focus on how to get ahead in gold and exp and be positive along the ride, is a skill reliant hero, look at your individual performance before putting the blame and the pressure on others. I dont really know how many games requires to be "competitive (as 50% win rate)" with invoker but it requires most dedication and mental fortitude that other cores.
Yeah it's not worth it unless he gets a buff imo There are invoker spammers with 50% winrate in my bracket (which is really really bad for a hero you spam, that should be 60%++ easily)
I mean it is just ancient[2] level and they definitely don't have the killer instinct, like TPing to towers when people are diving and doing other non-conventional stuff with high game awareness, but once you get higher and you do start to play close to perfectly you suddenly run into the wall of being off-meta and losing to coherent lineups.
Compare it to heroes like Spectre who are also hard initially and you need to gain map awareness, and it's very off-meta at highest brackets but you will destroy any sub 4k game once you get great on it as people never aggro trilane and such, while you're struggling hard on invoker
On March 22 2018 02:45 ironcell wrote: Archeon i feel that i have to apologize to you. I have become kind of bitter in my way to approach at the game. I respect your positive attitude. And teamliquid is a constructive site that i love so... I really dont want to discourage people trying to learn invoker.
On March 21 2018 04:56 Archeon wrote: Which btw is what you do, "don't play a hero you aren't good at" is a very detrimental way of approaching the game that is surely going to hamper your growth as a player.
@items: If you want to win with a fighting mid, pick a fighting mid. Invo simply doesn't rival the impact of a SF or OD or even DK or QoP either in lane or in early fights. That doesn't mean that you should never build treads aquilla drums agha, but it means that every time you do you could have picked an SF and might have had a far easier game.
I agree with you.
But what i want to insist is the value of learning how to lane with invoker and how to make an impact with him before 5 sec bkbs. I wholly agree with the fighting mid concept. And maybe the issue is that this meta feels like that imposes on you to play a fighting mid or stomp the other 2 lanes with is on your teammates.
Invoker is as good as you are as a "global player". You need to be not only good at combos and sheer mechanics, but map awareness and general game sense. And because of his great scaling if a player is good enough at the "macro" aspect, he doesnt even need to be able to perform a huge combo to climb. With invoker the macro can carry you really far.
If someone wants to learn invoker i think that the first thing to focus is to get out of the laning phase at the best condition posible. If you cant do that reliably then learn to lane with invoker and dont look at your winrate. Then focus on how to get ahead in gold and exp and be positive along the ride, is a skill reliant hero, look at your individual performance before putting the blame and the pressure on others. I dont really know how many games requires to be "competitive (as 50% win rate)" with invoker but it requires most dedication and mental fortitude that other cores.
Np, it's all good, the bitterness creeps up to all of us from time to time. I agree that his laning stage is important and that Invo kinda blows this patch due to his inability to have a large impact really early. So playing well in lane certainly helps a lot with keeping up.
EPT
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![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/7/73/Power_Treads.png)
OR ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/1/15/Arcane_Boots.png)
OR ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/7/78/Urn_of_Shadows.png)
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Liquipedia
. But yeah better know all the spells with invo ^^
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PKzRFrk.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UJZ78p1.jpg)
