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why do invoker players always go for eul/drums? I feel like invoker is much more valuable as a lategame cc than a hero that goes for early pickoffs (euls), and i tend to skip euls unless they have a silence. i usually progress my items as follows:
boots -> midas -> travels / pt booster -> travels / pt booster -> dagger -> agh -> octarine -> w/e
fitting a euls in if absolutely necessary after travels.
a lot of times having the pt booster is enough sustain such that i don't find drums necessary. i feel like invoker has a lot of trouble opening fights with low levels in wex as tornado / ghostwalk isn't that effective (and you don't want to waste a spell with low levels on invoke anyway), and turning on drums and running in is usually less effective than blinking in right away.
sure, invoker doesn't have many tools to escape ganks early on, but good positioning with a defensive ability usually does enough to get me out of a sticky situation. drums may make the cut and save me from a gank once (but i believe this is something that shouldn't be relied upon), but since invokers don't engage in teamfights that frequently prior aghs anyway having it doesn't really help. it also barely accelerates farm, esp. since when you already have two items that do that very well (travels / midas).
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On October 05 2016 04:03 findingthelimit wrote:
why do invoker players always go for eul/drums? I feel like invoker is much more valuable as a lategame cc than a hero that goes for early pickoffs (euls), and i tend to skip euls unless they have a silence. i usually progress my items as follows:
boots -> midas -> travels / pt booster -> travels / pt booster -> dagger -> agh -> octarine -> w/e
fitting a euls in if absolutely necessary after travels.
a lot of times having the pt booster is enough sustain such that i don't find drums necessary. i feel like invoker has a lot of trouble opening fights with low levels in wex as tornado / ghostwalk isn't that effective (and you don't want to waste a spell with low levels on invoke anyway), and turning on drums and running in is usually less effective than blinking in right away.
sure, invoker doesn't have many tools to escape ganks early on, but good positioning with a defensive ability usually does enough to get me out of a sticky situation. drums may make the cut and save me from a gank once (but i believe this is something that shouldn't be relied upon), but since invokers don't engage in teamfights that frequently prior aghs anyway having it doesn't really help. it also barely accelerates farm, esp. since when you already have two items that do that very well (travels / midas).
heya I do not play high level invoker.
I think you can say the same thing about many versatile heroes--that is, the heroes who scale well with time and money.
as for the items themselves, I feel Eul's is not all about the QE setups, you know, with sunstrike meteor.
it's also good for the movespeed, builds from the movespeed item (windlace) and grants mana pool.
increasingly it's more difficult for QE invoker to contribute in the map except with sunstrike and good lane heroes. it really depends on the player on invoker and if they're in touch with the rest of the map.
if you are so greedy you feel the need to rush travels after midas, in the event you're forced to fight, you are probably dying the soonest or forced to throw out one volley of spells before getting out. ofc, this immediately goes against the idea of having fast travels.
point booster is not necessarily more sustain, it's just a tiny bit of added room for error and is a greedier choice that builds into an item you want third. if this item is your comparison to euls or drums, that is fair imo. however, that is truly discounting the dps increases for the charges, the setup, disjointing and tp cancel of the euls, and the build fluidity coming from windlace, which leaves it at more like a 1600cost rather than 1800.
I think your reasoning is that on the movespeed front, the money spent on drums is spent on the travels instead.
that is reasonable since there is a farming spike between 8 and 15minutes because of midas and you're already into the meat of the useful levels for spells.
everyone I know of or probably will ever know of always builds some combination of basi/Aquila into drums or euls for what is by far the most popular skill build, QE. the only definitive thing i can try to say, unfortunately, is that it probably just feels better. if you build drums + 1, that comes at around 15m
if you build straight travels, that is probably by 12/13m and then you are looking at a bigger lulll in item progression. blink around 17, aghs 23. it's important to understand the differences and what you're missing out during those minutes.
either way, you have everything you need in and around 20m and it happens to be around the time you have 2 levels in invoke.
at the end of the day if you succeed with your build leaving nothing to be desired transitioning into your faster blink/aghs, all the power to you but remember that if you do feel a small bit of juice missing in your play during those shakier levels, it is probably the feeling that one of those two items can provide for you. try not to fall into the trap of thinking when you do make the bots blink/aghs work, that it is mostly on the back of that decision to go for it as it is very likely you could have secured the same timing of core items with the items you did not consider.
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Heard Waga talk about drums once. His opinion was mainly that it helps take rosh fast and safe. Also together with Aquilla you push fast. So it's not just a fighting/survival item, it's also bought a lot because of the aura/charge on FS.
Also aquilla+bracer is a lot of cost effective stats.
Euls is a nice package, but mainly bought for SS->meat ball->deafening blast combo. High lvl mmr pubs seem to shy away from it more and more, but it's still popular in middle and low mmr when people are less coordinated and pickoffs are happening more often.
The main reason high lvl pubs don't play it anymore seems to be that aghs is more or less required for fighting and fights happen earlier and earlier nowadays. Also you can actually just do the combo with tornado once you have aghs.
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midas + bots + dagger before aghs sounds suuuuuuuuuuper slow and is probably highly situational (ie you are already buttfucking beyond belief to pull that off and not feel like shit)... if you've been ganked 3x mid and just made your midas you probably feel better going for drums (or force or straight aghs) than thinking anything about bots..?
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BoT vs Aghs is situational. If your team can do well 4v5 while you farm the shit out of ancients and neutrals, I'd say get Aghs first. But if you need to split push to bring back some sort of balance/gold to the map, then BoT is the way to go.
I don't see getting dagger before Aghs to be that beneficial since you can't combo that effectively without the reduced cooldown and mana costs, unless you're going Eul + Blink to pick off supports earlier on. However for that to works, you'd probably have to skip BoT until after you get Aghs, or your Aghs timing is gonna be way too late imo.
I'm just playing low MMR QE invoker so probably it'll work differently on higher skill level, but in summary this is how I normally start and proceed with my games:
1. Early game: Basi + Midas for starters
2. Mid game:
2.1 Route A: Drum + BoT for split push/farm and get Agh afterwards
2.2 Route B: Rush Agh for team fight and 5-man towers (BoT afterwards for split pushing after you've taken down half of the map with your 5-man) - Note: I generally don't think it's a good idea to go this route unless you're absolutely sure your team is on the same page.
2.3 Route C: Eul + Blink for ganking supports
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I cant believe the ember thread has 3x as much pages as invoker.... .
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On October 08 2016 00:59 Mafe wrote:
I cant believe the ember thread has 3x as much pages as invoker.... .
Why not the hero was fairly new and one of the more complex to figure out for the first year.
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The Ember thread, and Ember discussion in general was a giant shitfest, between here, PD, d2g and reddit. Although it feels pretty good to get proven right.
On release, slightly embellished:
Arcane Vanguard Flameguard is the build because TC/XBOCT/insert pro here does it and stomp their pubs
- Point out that people didn't know how to play against ember, QW invoker (top tier pick at the time) was running away from the flame guard instead of just tornado off the shield and the hero is useless. It also blocked damage pre-resis so it soaks 2 max nukes at best. Sleight Chains gives you a 300 damage nuke on 2 targets every 8 seconds from 1200 range, sleight harass from a distance comparable to tidebringer, BoT rush has good synergy with Remnant to refill mana and join fight globally. Battlefury is the best damage item per slot
STFU 3k trash build, Flame Guard is f-r-e-e r-a-d-i-a-n-c-e++, you need to tank up to use it. Battlefury is garbage 1k scrub build that groups up, Desolator and Maelstrom are for uber pros, etc...
- Battlefury became core
- Sing, 430, RTZ discovered the Sleight Chains build, stomped people into the ground, hero is considered broken and was nerfed around 6.81
- Envy discovered BoT "rush", made the hero a T1 pick in Shanghai and Frankfurt
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Hey,
I'm fairly new to Invoker. I train combos in sandbox mode custom games and try to learn how to lane in 1on1 and some unranked/smurf.
When I began playing Invoker I only learn Q/W. I wasnt good I have to admit and stopped playing him. Month later my second attempt I started to learn QE Invoker. I am pretty decent besides laning phase (no experience when I can go for a kill and I'm pretty new to the mid role (I mostly (99%) play 3rd 4th or 5th position).
To my problem:
I have huge problem when to decide which way to go: qw or qe. I know which one has what kind of role (space creating, early teamfight, gank is qw mostly and more nuker, (split)pushing, carry is qe.). So I never know if I have to priorotize which build cause of team composition or cause of my laning opponent. I'm 3k, but play mostly unranked (95%) in very high (if that says anything beside "I suck at dota").
Can you give me advice if teamcomposition > laning phase? Against which heros in mid (common mids) should I go which build?
Like:
Vs OD: go qw since spirits get 2 shotted
etc
I also watched tons of yt-videos, read lots of guides, but I still dont know when to decide which role to go.
Bonus question: as QW i drop emp then cold snap, right? or cold snap and emp in front of him so he either runs at me/to the side.
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On October 05 2016 05:05 nanaoei wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2016 04:03 findingthelimit wrote:
why do invoker players always go for eul/drums? I feel like invoker is much more valuable as a lategame cc than a hero that goes for early pickoffs (euls), and i tend to skip euls unless they have a silence. i usually progress my items as follows:
boots -> midas -> travels / pt booster -> travels / pt booster -> dagger -> agh -> octarine -> w/e
fitting a euls in if absolutely necessary after travels.
a lot of times having the pt booster is enough sustain such that i don't find drums necessary. i feel like invoker has a lot of trouble opening fights with low levels in wex as tornado / ghostwalk isn't that effective (and you don't want to waste a spell with low levels on invoke anyway), and turning on drums and running in is usually less effective than blinking in right away.
sure, invoker doesn't have many tools to escape ganks early on, but good positioning with a defensive ability usually does enough to get me out of a sticky situation. drums may make the cut and save me from a gank once (but i believe this is something that shouldn't be relied upon), but since invokers don't engage in teamfights that frequently prior aghs anyway having it doesn't really help. it also barely accelerates farm, esp. since when you already have two items that do that very well (travels / midas). heya I do not play high level invoker. I think you can say the same thing about many versatile heroes--that is, the heroes who scale well with time and money. as for the items themselves, I feel Eul's is not all about the QE setups, you know, with sunstrike meteor. it's also good for the movespeed, builds from the movespeed item (windlace) and grants mana pool. increasingly it's more difficult for QE invoker to contribute in the map except with sunstrike and good lane heroes. it really depends on the player on invoker and if they're in touch with the rest of the map. if you are so greedy you feel the need to rush travels after midas, in the event you're forced to fight, you are probably dying the soonest or forced to throw out one volley of spells before getting out. ofc, this immediately goes against the idea of having fast travels. point booster is not necessarily more sustain, it's just a tiny bit of added room for error and is a greedier choice that builds into an item you want third. if this item is your comparison to euls or drums, that is fair imo. however, that is truly discounting the dps increases for the charges, the setup, disjointing and tp cancel of the euls, and the build fluidity coming from windlace, which leaves it at more like a 1600cost rather than 1800. I think your reasoning is that on the movespeed front, the money spent on drums is spent on the travels instead. that is reasonable since there is a farming spike between 8 and 15minutes because of midas and you're already into the meat of the useful levels for spells. everyone I know of or probably will ever know of always builds some combination of basi/Aquila into drums or euls for what is by far the most popular skill build, QE. the only definitive thing i can try to say, unfortunately, is that it probably just feels better. if you build drums + 1, that comes at around 15m if you build straight travels, that is probably by 12/13m and then you are looking at a bigger lulll in item progression. blink around 17, aghs 23. it's important to understand the differences and what you're missing out during those minutes. either way, you have everything you need in and around 20m and it happens to be around the time you have 2 levels in invoke. at the end of the day if you succeed with your build leaving nothing to be desired transitioning into your faster blink/aghs, all the power to you but remember that if you do feel a small bit of juice missing in your play during those shakier levels, it is probably the feeling that one of those two items can provide for you. try not to fall into the trap of thinking when you do make the bots blink/aghs work, that it is mostly on the back of that decision to go for it as it is very likely you could have secured the same timing of core items with the items you did not consider.
Been spamming it some more with the eul-drum build, and I have some new thoughts I'd like to summarize, taking into account what you've said regarding euls/drums.
As a mid-high 4k player who watched a lot of pro games, youtube videos on Miracle / w33, it is easy to think of invoker as a hero with incredible wombo combo potential as it is, and that's what most of the videos leave you the impression of. It is thus natural for myself to practice invoker heavily in some sandbox games, giving myself infinite gold with hex / aghs / octarine / refresher, and getting very solid at the combos, which I currently am. I play most of my pubs with the impression that I aim to approach this sweet spot as early as possible, and actually had great success with it. On the contrary, I did not have much success going for eul/drums, it seems like joining fights early on with an invoker, getting kills and getting out alive is actually very tricky.
I might carry on doing what I'm currently doing, or try to actually get good at early squirmishes at the hero, but to me it seems unless you are very good at reading teamfights, it's really hard to execute spells well on a low leveled invoker with ~4-1-5 without dying, getting out alive, without slowing down your item progression. Missing a spell or two when I have aghs octarine is not as crucial as there's a lot more room for error, and as long as you toss out as many spells as possible including icewall / alacrity that most people forget, so it seems like for a less than ideal player like myself, even though this build may not be the norm in higher 5.5k-6k+ brackets, it works very well in the sub-5k territory.
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On October 10 2016 18:55 Tppz! wrote:
Hey,
I'm fairly new to Invoker. I train combos in sandbox mode custom games and try to learn how to lane in 1on1 and some unranked/smurf.
When I began playing Invoker I only learn Q/W. I wasnt good I have to admit and stopped playing him. Month later my second attempt I started to learn QE Invoker. I am pretty decent besides laning phase (no experience when I can go for a kill and I'm pretty new to the mid role (I mostly (99%) play 3rd 4th or 5th position).
To my problem:
I have huge problem when to decide which way to go: qw or qe. I know which one has what kind of role (space creating, early teamfight, gank is qw mostly and more nuker, (split)pushing, carry is qe.). So I never know if I have to priorotize which build cause of team composition or cause of my laning opponent. I'm 3k, but play mostly unranked (95%) in very high (if that says anything beside "I suck at dota").
Can you give me advice if teamcomposition > laning phase? Against which heros in mid (common mids) should I go which build?
Like:
Vs OD: go qw since spirits get 2 shotted
etc
I also watched tons of yt-videos, read lots of guides, but I still dont know when to decide which role to go.
Bonus question: as QW i drop emp then cold snap, right? or cold snap and emp in front of him so he either runs at me/to the side.
There are little tips you mentioned yourself, such as forge spirit being 2 hit by OD (I still go QE against OD, though), but if you are familiar with the roles in which the two invokers play as you said you are, I can't think of any absolutely terrible matchups for one style that should shift you to go another. One advantageous matchup I can think of is QW against ember, using tornado to purge flameguard- but all in all, as the two styles are completely different with one being farm heavy and the other being gank oriented, thinking along those lines regarding what your team needs instead of giving yourself the best matchup is usually the right thing to do. Personally I go QE almost exclusively unless I'm against Ember (if i already picked; i personally love the storm/ember matchup), SF (50/50 on this one), or something cheesy like a mid Ursa.
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only wish you luck on that front then.
just freestyle it when you're confident in your abilities. doing the same builds every game doesn't always allow you to learn something from your games. unfortunately, it can mean you're indirectly throwing the game, but that's only one side of the coin.
increasingly as i have less time i'm playing better overall with much less games as i'm spending a lot of time and effort outside the game to be cognizant of the details and then making extra efforts disciplining myself in game.
replays are great, there's always information no matter your relative level.
good luck.
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Are there any tricks to get your forge spirit and hero attacks to land at the same time?
I seem to be losing cs often after the first lands and before the 2nd in lane.
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group them together and attack at same time?
if you have very good micro/apm you can give commands separately and time them based on their distance from the target, but judging by your question im gonna assume this isnt possible for you.
if the grouping together + 1 attack command doesnt work for you then its an issue of you not being able to calculate how much damage it the combined attack does
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just make sure they are x distance from the creeps and you are y distance from the creeps.
if you don't use a "go idle" command to control your movement, and instead run around constantly like a *snipped*, then i guess it would be a lot harder to do that. i press D and all my units go idle until i am ready to take the last hit
also (obviously) use F1, F2 and F3 to shuffle your unit positions every so often as needed. usually you would F1 to move your hero back a little then F3 to resume control of all three of them
voker can have a pretty slow animation but you get used to it, as you get used to all heroes animations after enough conscious practice
also yes The Dream is to micro your hero and forge spirits separately within the same instant in order to score two cs at once :D
FYI when pushing with spirits and your hero, it is crucial that you make your forge spirits autoattack the creeps, and focus on microing just your hero to land the last hits. i used to group hero and spirits at the same time to push a wave but it means you are wasting so much rightclick damage waiting to score last hits when the spirits could have been autoattacking
when afk pushing with just spirits and not your hero down a lane, it is crucial to micro them to take last hits, they do so much damage you can get literally every last hit if you're fast enough, that's a free 300 gold every time you send them afk down a lane. make sure you cast spirits before you die and then micro them to get your death gold back while you're dead :p bonus points if you can steal cs from other members of your team or land denies on the opponent who thinks you're afk
the last tip is that when you go to cold snap someone, make your spirits right click him and wait for their projectile to fire before using cold snap. you opponent will be taken unaware then, and you also have time to cancel if you think your opponent is reacting too quickly to your movement
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Lalalaland34492 Posts
Well I'm sad 
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Don't know what to think of the new Invoker. Having your spells earlier is nice but still. Maybe now though we'll see more different builds for Invoker instead of a standard Aghs+Octarine every game, maybe even ressurgence of Quas+Wex.
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Support voker is the way now FB!
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Does the invoke cool down reduction compensate at all for the forged spirits nerf?
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Lalalaland34492 Posts
Haven't played him yet but I suspect no. You don't want to be using that many spells early since you start off very specialised until later levels and higher mana pool. Meh.
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EPT
