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On February 06 2016 06:20 DV G wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 17:07 SatsuinoHado wrote:
Sadly OD hard counters AM and one shots any PL illusion while the ulty dmg's only the real PL. The ONLY hero i saw doing good vs OD mid/late game is heroes like PA or Slard who can just jump in his face and 2 shot him. I saw at least 10+ games where the AM jumps on OD casts manta and DIES in 3 hits its pretty sad actually an intel ranged hero to rape so hard the ANTI MAGE. If I focus on viper pick we are with Viper after the 15 min game its a Viper and the new OD just goes in fight hits 4 people once casts ulty and does ultra kill while you slow someone not as impressive if you ask me If OD hard counters the AM then you are playing in a weird bracket or got bad experiences imho. AMcan counter OD hard, point is you need to play it accordingly. you farm way faster You can splitpush and expand the map You can buy a bkb When you are 2 items ahead you go in and 1v1 you can kill him. (same when you get abysall or even basher). Obviously if the OD snowballs out of control at 10-15m there's not much to do, but thats not the AM fault (mostly) you just gotta be carefull on OD's Blink-hex timing because thats when he starts hunting you. Also other good lategame heroes vs od that can burst him quick or manfight 1v1 are sven, TA, or even shotgun morph. Obviuosly what you want in lategame is a hero that can initiate on him and other that can kill him or burst him, if people go 1v1 vs him or he obliterates half your team before the fight starts you're fucked anyways. Anyway most pubs end with OD snowballing from the lane so you feel useless and thats the problem.
Exactly! My point if you go 35+ min and its OK game well ye AM wins but when 99% of the meta heroes lose HARD to OD mid and in mid game his fight potential is absurd all you can do with AM is HOPE your team not feeding 4v5 untill you farm which in this meta is not the best option at ANY bracket mine is 4-5K but I see a lot of streamers like Miracle who just spams mid OD and goes for random items and snowballs even vs 2-3 man gangs from min ONE and between 15-20 min the game is pretty much over. Thats just the new sniper sadly he has that moment when he hits 5-6 times with Arcane Orb and just presses "R" and 4 people die which Sniper never could do.
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What about Veil of Discord guys?
I know that the active isn't that useful to you, as it only boosts your Astral and your ult, but get it mainly for the regen/stats? It's pretty efficient. Most of the time you already have a null talisman anyway.
It does boost your team's damage too, and could be better depending on lineup.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
veil was discussed a couple of pages ago, and it was generally agreed that the stats werent particularly worth it. especially the armour. because veil only really works with ur ult, and eclipse has such a long cooldown, i think u will struggle to get much use from it. even if it synergises with ur team, it means you have to be with ur team at those times. far better for someone else on ur team to get it in that case
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SoCal8910 Posts
On February 08 2016 18:46 SatsuinoHado wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2016 06:20 DV G wrote:On February 05 2016 17:07 SatsuinoHado wrote:
Sadly OD hard counters AM and one shots any PL illusion while the ulty dmg's only the real PL. The ONLY hero i saw doing good vs OD mid/late game is heroes like PA or Slard who can just jump in his face and 2 shot him. I saw at least 10+ games where the AM jumps on OD casts manta and DIES in 3 hits its pretty sad actually an intel ranged hero to rape so hard the ANTI MAGE. If I focus on viper pick we are with Viper after the 15 min game its a Viper and the new OD just goes in fight hits 4 people once casts ulty and does ultra kill while you slow someone not as impressive if you ask me If OD hard counters the AM then you are playing in a weird bracket or got bad experiences imho. AMcan counter OD hard, point is you need to play it accordingly. you farm way faster You can splitpush and expand the map You can buy a bkb When you are 2 items ahead you go in and 1v1 you can kill him. (same when you get abysall or even basher). Obviously if the OD snowballs out of control at 10-15m there's not much to do, but thats not the AM fault (mostly) you just gotta be carefull on OD's Blink-hex timing because thats when he starts hunting you. Also other good lategame heroes vs od that can burst him quick or manfight 1v1 are sven, TA, or even shotgun morph. Obviuosly what you want in lategame is a hero that can initiate on him and other that can kill him or burst him, if people go 1v1 vs him or he obliterates half your team before the fight starts you're fucked anyways. Anyway most pubs end with OD snowballing from the lane so you feel useless and thats the problem. Exactly! My point if you go 35+ min and its OK game well ye AM wins but when 99% of the meta heroes lose HARD to OD mid and in mid game his fight potential is absurd all you can do with AM is HOPE your team not feeding 4v5 untill you farm which in this meta is not the best option at ANY bracket mine is 4-5K but I see a lot of streamers like Miracle who just spams mid OD and goes for random items and snowballs even vs 2-3 man gangs from min ONE and between 15-20 min the game is pretty much over. Thats just the new sniper sadly he has that moment when he hits 5-6 times with Arcane Orb and just presses "R" and 4 people die which Sniper never could do.
yeah, you're definitely exaggerating a lot when you post. like..from minute ONE? get a grip, you can't do much with 1 or 2 levels into orb + aura.
he's a strong hero, but there's plenty you can do to stop him as we've outlined.
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You pick TA and destroy him in mid. A poor OD is so bad it hurts i cant remember that one game where DC got it for yawar and he was like so useless. He has no tools for recovery or fighting capability when behind.
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On February 12 2016 07:25 Skynx wrote:
You pick TA and destroy him in mid. A poor OD is so bad it hurts i cant remember that one game where DC got it for yawar and he was like so useless. He has no tools for recovery or fighting capability when behind.
i prefer him in the safelane in pubs, hes not the mid crusher he once was, but hes super strong in zoning the shit out of the offlane, in a good game u get lvl 3-4 while they're still 1 or 2, they cant really do anything. Then you just snowball from there, plenty of room to punish a bad offlaner as well. Really liking the drum build into force, atos, shiva w/e it varies have not tried aquila (arteezy?) or sny (old chicken) doesnt sit right with me...
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I cant play TA well so I pick core SWM and just crush his dreams. or at least before he gets bkb 
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how to play od in laning stage (skill build and playdtyle ) when to aggressive harrass opponent with orb
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SoCal8910 Posts
so i just did some math on how much dmg your orb will do (on the next attack, when 1 stack of int steal is applied) with points into Q versus points into E bc i was curious if we were just kinda blindly following the old meta or if something else was better.
I used a very simplistic calculation to test this out, someone could probably make a more accurate calc with everything considered.
+ Show Spoiler +(500 + 75E + 19 (1 + Q) - 100 ) (.05+.01Q)
Where Q and E represent the number of points you put into the spells. So take your mana from after the 1st orb attack (I chose 500 bc i thought the numbers would be nicer), add mana from your aura, then add mana generated from that first orb attack, take away 100 mana from firing the 2nd orb. This is your current mana pool upon the attack landing (assuming you don't do anything else before the projectile hits). Multiply your current mana pool by the multiplier from your Q.
So here are the calcs based on my understanding of the spells' mechanics:
+ Show Spoiler +Here's what it looks like if you max 1 spell over the other
Level 2 => 1-0-1-0 = 31 dmg 1-0-1-0 = 31 dmg
Level 4 => 2-1-1-0 = 37 dmg 1-1-2-0 = 35 dmg
Level 6 => 3-1-1-1 = 44 dmg 1-1-3-1 = 40 dmg
Level 7 => 4-1-1-1 = 51 dmg 1-1-4-1 = 44 dmg
Potential lvl 6 build maxing them together
2-1-2-1 = 42 dmg
and potential lvl 8 builds
4-1-2-1 = 58 dmg
2-1-4-1 = 53 dmg
3-1-3-1 = 56 dmg
Basically each variation has a small change in the bonus dmg added to the attack, BUT...
Theorycrafting incoming..
+ Show Spoiler +with a max aura, you're gaining 25% of your mana pool which is massive because that maintains this dps over the course of an extended fight. After the first attack without your aura proc'ing, you spent 100 mana to do, essentially, an extra auto attack of pure dmg. That's ok until the 2nd attack without a proc comes and suddenly you're tickling them bc your current mana is low.
So let's assume that happens..with max orb, using the same calc as above, that brings your dmg from 51 to 41.
If you're really unlucky, the next attack doesn't proc either..down to 32 dmg and your mana pool is dwindling..buuuuuutt, you'll still have enough mana for your ultimate...
Those 3 attacks with a max orb net you 15 extra INT which places you at the top of the hero pool in terms of raw INT, meaning even pugna will be affected by your ultimate (for less than 50 dmg tho LOL), but more importantly...you just created a 30 INT gap between you and the person you got those 3 orbs on which is 240 dmg, assuming you started even in INT. If you weren't..well it gets worse by a factor of 8 lol
So, here's what I'm going to be doing going forward (until he gets nerfed after the major  )
+ Show Spoiler +-VS an int heavy lineup, max orb, make sure i carry a mango + stick with me during mid-game fights. hold my ultimate until I hit 3+ orbs, preferably 5 if i can afford it. i usually start with a null, but i think i might pick up a 2nd one in this scenario. i need to test skipping out on his ultimate, here, but i guarantee you can make it work.
-VS a non-int heavy lineup, 2-1-4-1 by lvl 8. draw out the fights and stack the int. drop a huge ultimate on their faces.
these are general cases for me, tho..if it feels like a farmy game vs int heroes, maxing your aura to orb more and boost your farm speed will probably be way better than dropping 4 quick orbs to ulti with and maybe get a kill. that sorta stuff.
Feel free to let me know if anything im saying is off base at all. I wanted to get this written down somewhere to make sense of it and to let someone else read it and see if it all makes sense the way i see it.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On February 20 2016 17:03 soilcow wrote:
how to play od in laning stage (skill build and playdtyle ) when to aggressive harrass opponent with orb
i think the post above is probably a little too math heavy for what you're looking for, so here's my take
skill: ult > aura > orb > astral
how to lane: passive until you get your bottle. i've been opening with tango + null, but i think you can also tango + branches and bottle rush depending on who you're playing against and how aggressive you can be.
in terms of harass, again, it depends on the lane. if you're against someone that needs to use spells to farm (zeus), orb will be your best friend. you'll be able to out-CS them if they can't spam their skills.
if you're against someone with right click, astral is good to use offensively (to prevent them from CSing), but I personally pull the wave onto my ranged creep and CS on my side of the hill, asking for a roamer to swing by.
i like to save astral for defensive purposes. i think OD has a good enough animation/dmg to right click and CS against most heroes without the need for cock blocking them.
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United States47024 Posts
I think your math is sound but your conclusions seem backward to me. Int drain is BETTER vs. a low Int lineup because locking a hero out of their spells/items is more impactful than any incremental gain in damage. I think this consideration matters more than the incremental damage differences between 4-x-x and x-x-4.
Then again, "Int-heavy" and "non-Int heavy" does't always correlate with how mana-gated the team is. There are Int heroes that are super mana gated because of high-cost ultimates (Lina, Sky, Rhasta) and there are low-Int heroes who don't really rely on their mana at all. Still, the idea applies--stronger Int drain has value not just because of the damage increase, but because of the constraints it puts on mana-gated enemy heroes.
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SoCal8910 Posts
I was thinking about that as I was writing this up. My conclusion was based around wanting to make the ultimate dealing damage and the fact that lineups that are heavy with int heroes can make the fights short BC they tend to have nukes and burst people down. Additionally, wiping their mana pool to shorten their ability to fight was a thought. You are guaranteed 40% of their max, so knocking off int and dropping the hammer makes it hard to keep a fight going on the heroes you listed as well.
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well for OD mid, if you are against a melee match its pretty much a free win. Against most mid heroes, od can pretty much hold his own, but his short coming is that his 450 attack range really limits him in certain matchups against heroes that have higher attack range than him in the ability to win the lane.
There arent many real heroes that can give beat OD mid, but extort invoker does relatively well, and have high kill potential on OD once you get double forge + cold snap + SS. Other mid match ups where the enemy have solo kill potential is puck,
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United States47024 Posts
A lot of traditionally bad matchups for OD actually got worse for OD once the Int steal got moved, it's just most of those matchups are not common either because the heroes in question are not played mid, or are rare picks in general.
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from my experience lina is one of the best heroes for winning against od mid: any attempt to astral you should result in taking tons of damage from your huge auto range and maybe an lsa if u can land it before he can astral you
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honestly, OD is VERY strong in the mid game when he get his levels, but the new OD? Unless you are against an extremely favorable melee match up, hes really not that dominating mid. There are some match ups you can win, but due to your base damage remaining static, and the lack of a spammable nuke, there are some heroes that will outscale him mid before he gets higher levels of arcane orb.
Mostly heroes like invoker. he will most likely out cs you. and you cant really pressure him either. His neutral farming game is not that great either. Which is probably why you see more and more safelane ODs i guess.
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Usually the best mid laners have some way of pushing out the waves, or have some kind of built in regen or their item build or skill build gives them enough sustain to deal with equally popular heroes that spam nuke harass. OD does not seem to have the luxury of this as he deals pretty poorly against spam nuke harass and bottle regen is almost never enough to deal with it once their heroes reach higher levels.
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SoCal8910 Posts
the only time you have and advantage over the invoker and can bully him is for like the first 2 or 3 minutes before it starts to even out. my personal approach against invokers is to double wave him while his dmg sucks and orb occasionally until i know that my bottle is on the way/the rune is spawning. at the point ill unload a bit to snag some more int.
that being said, the ability to do this stops around level 4ish. i have been able to kill invokers at lvl 6, but mostly due to poor play and the farm advantage i took earlier in the game by making him farm under his own tower while he's stupid and weak from the intel i stole.
idk if this is always the play, but i like to get a midas after brown boots to use on the forge spirits which opens up a window of opportunity for some harassment before he gets 2 and attack speed/levels/moniez is always good for you.
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Midas OD is the stuff of MMR Assassins, you want to have fighting Items like drum/veil/dagger
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SoCal8910 Posts
i almost always get drums and a blink
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EPT
