On June 23 2019 03:05 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:
So you let a roster unchanged when you have no success and kick players when you have success?

Interesting strategy you got there!

They are a team that wants to win TI, that is the only reason teams train and play all year. And given their overall performance and results this year, their chances to win TI were slim to none. One big win does not compensate a whole disappointing year.

Qualitaetsgarant

124 Posts

June 22 2019 18:40 GMT

#6765

I somehow would have understood the kick BEFORE the Paris Major.
Grabbing the DPC points to qualify for TI with Matu first and then kick him after he did the job leaves a bad feeling.

InFiNitY[pG]

Germany3467 Posts

June 22 2019 18:55 GMT

#6766

There is never a good time to kick a player, especially not when you've been together for this long. This might not have been the best, but definitely not the worst moment either. They tried their best to make it work, and this is probably the latest time to replace someone and still get a decent amount of practice in.

kerpal

United Kingdom2695 Posts

June 22 2019 19:42 GMT

#6767

If anything I think kicking matu now shows what the ethis of liquid was - if you look overthis thread the last 12 months you'll see endless whining about bad results and poor performances - and most of it aimed at matu.

I think what they said makes sense. He's a great player and definitely wasnt the problem, but he also wasnt the solution. They needed a change and they left it probably 6 months to a year longer than anyone else would have.

Liquid showed for almost 2 years that they wanted to stick with a roster rather than trying to chase results, so you can't be angry with them now - if you are you have to be twice as angry with every other dota team.

DucK-

Singapore11446 Posts

June 23 2019 03:54 GMT

#6768

It feels strange seeing w33voker instead of miracle playing it. Personally I do not buy that matu can't play many carry heroes well enough if they wanna put miracle mid on storm sf ta etc. However I do think matu mid pool is an issue though and maybe that's what the team feels is restricting liquid draft.

juuto

809 Posts

June 23 2019 06:42 GMT

#6769

Liquid beat EG and Gambit who have now beaten both VP and EG recently. Two pretty damn strong teams and they secured upper bracket by beating both of them. I dunno about any of you but that's a seriously big deal for a new roster. w33 is looking absolutely amazing as expected.

Ferricks

26 Posts

June 23 2019 10:05 GMT

#6770

I think it is still too early to judge whether kuro kicked matu or matu decided to leave TL, the official statement is that the decision is mutual. Just like in late 2016, when bulba suddenly went inactive and gh came in. At that time, it still wasnt clear until there was an interview with MC in which he said that there was a problem and they kicked bulba. So i think its best not to assume anything first.

Most people tend to place blame on kuro or the organization, which is understandable. But looking at recent matches when matu was still in the team, he looked frustrated every time they lost, so based on that, the assumption that he decided to leave would also be understandable.

Anyway, like i said, its still to early to jump into conclusions, but looking at yesterday's matches, we can see that w33 played well, he did well in lane, kept up with the farm, died only a few times and outplayed sumail, which was very satisfying!

Lets go liquid!

SFDuality

United States1318 Posts

June 23 2019 15:04 GMT

#6771

That's naive. It was 100% a kick, though that doesn't necessarily have to mean bad blood or grudges. The team made a decision they thought was necessary. Only time and results will tell if that was a good or bad choice.

Regardless, it's happened, Liquid has moved on, Matu has moved on; it's only us who are refusing to let it go. Let the topic of the roster change die, and let's move on to Liquid's performance in Epicenter.

juuto

809 Posts

June 24 2019 12:07 GMT

#6772

Really wholesome and sweet interview with w33 just aired on the Epicenter twitch channel. It feels very nice to see him in a Liquid jersey

hunter_x

Germany2762 Posts

June 24 2019 14:56 GMT

#6773

i dont want to jinx anything, but w33 seems to fit very well with the team. beating EG and LGD in a best of 3, not too shabby;)

NInoff

Bulgaria1105 Posts

June 24 2019 14:57 GMT

#6774

If we win vs VP later, i will start to believe that TI is within reach. Very good games vs LGD, apart from a couple of miracle feeds game two - both games were executed very very well.
Also last fight was a bait - LGDs ultimates + BKBs for a Miracle byback around roshan - after the game ended GH pointed to Kuro that it was a smart move. If planing your carry buyback was indeed planned this is another level from Kuro. Its like sacrificing your Queen in chess for a 2 move checkmate.
Respect.

Rufus Dupres

Germany1071 Posts

June 24 2019 15:22 GMT

#6775

At this stage in the game, they had to make such a bold call. LGD was in firm control of the game, giving them the Aegis would have been GG. Luckily, it paid off great.

For such a short time together, beating EG and LGD is indeed a good start. Can't wait till they play against VP.

overt

United States9006 Posts

June 24 2019 15:50 GMT

#6776

On June 24 2019 23:56 hunter_x wrote:
i dont want to jinx anything, but w33 seems to fit very well with the team. beating EG and LGD in a best of 3, not too shabby;)

It’s really neat reading the posts from last week about how bad of a move this was.

However at this point in the season all that really matters is how well you do at TI. Biggest worry for Liquid to me is that w33’s hero pool still looks small.

hunter_x

Germany2762 Posts

June 24 2019 16:10 GMT

#6777

On June 25 2019 00:50 overt wrote:

Show nested quote +

well i for once never said it was a bad move, and i dont even remember people saying it. it was more about the kick not being fair for matumba, but thats life. It is still a good start for a team with a new player, TI has nothing to do with it for now.

Pontual

Brazil3038 Posts

June 24 2019 17:31 GMT

#6778

IMO people saying Liquid wasn't being fair and all but you can't really blame them. They are a team that wants to win, if they don't believe matu was the best option then i can't blame them. They are pros before friends and with that you must leave those separate, it wasn't imoral because it was close to ti, they aren't in a happy walk in the park, it is their job to compete. And, afterall his contract probably has a clause that he gets a percentage of tourneys winnings if he qualifies for them, even if he isn't in the team.

Toadesstern

Germany16350 Posts

June 24 2019 18:09 GMT

#6779

I think the biggest issue with this is that I really don't think any kind of players association or whatever would even help anyone involved. PPD somewhat mentioned something along those lines or just players just not being organized but that's somewhat besides the point imo.
The idea that TL management forced the Matu-kick because they weren't happy with the results seems super unlikely. This was almost certainly done because the players weren't happy with their situation and any kind of organization that would have "protected" matu would be bad for the other 4 players (or however many) who wanted a change on Liquid.

It's just a shitty situation that's really hard to improve. People mentioned Valve should put up a deadline for roster changes but we've already had that before and it only makes things worse. Let's say they make the deadline december 31st just for arguments sake to have a nice date.
If that's the case teams will kick people on dec 31 and the kicked person will have less than 24hours to get into a new team if he wants to avoid open quals. And those would probably be really stacked again with such a deadline because at the end of the day TI is what matters and teams who think they need to change something will do that if they think it'll improve their situation.

You'd need some kind of dual deadline, one for kicking and a second one, a couple months later that still allows team to pick up new people (who were kicked at deadline #1 or just other people). But then what team would pick them up unless they themselves kicked someone else to get down to 4 and you just so happen to be the correct position for that other team that also needs one.

NInoff

Bulgaria1105 Posts

June 24 2019 20:03 GMT

#6780

What a game of dota - split seconds desiding winners or losers, - in this case more like 0.1 seconds. If GH managed to land that RP on both TB and Tide Miracle could've killed Ramzess - no BB.
Game 3 coming UP, TI around the corner, omg what a couple of months will that be!

Lets go Liquid!