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On March 09 2018 05:48 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2018 02:43 nothingmuch wrote:On March 09 2018 01:56 Firebolt145 wrote:
It does mean that anyone eliminated has effectively only lost one bo3 or bo5. Is that enough to kick a team out of the tournament completely? Any tournament that runs single elim off of bo3's would still receive plenty of criticism for that.
Anyway now that Liquid are through we don't need to complain about it any more, leave it to the fans of teams that were eliminated. There's no scenario where losing a bo3 gets you kicked out of the tournament. You need to have 3 losses aka lose a bo5 to drop out. Whoops, you're right. Still though, would you accept a bo5 single elim tournament?
Probably, sounds interesting but people would bitch about lucky brackets. Also it's just the group stage in this case. At the end of the day a cross table group stage with bo1s is not that different from doing a swiss like this- there's a certain cutoff/number of bo1s you have to win and if you don't you don't make it out of groups. Granted a 16 team cross table group stage would result in 7 games for each team while this way it's just 5 (max) so there's a little more room for error but the difference is not that big. The odd thing is that the tournament didn't really take advantage of the reduced number of games and (unnecessarily imo) spread them out quite a lot except for day3. Kuro said in an interview that he would have liked to play more games per day, so maybe the groups could have been done in 2 days.
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Swiss format works best in CS as there are 30 rounds there. Plenty of gun rounds to prove who is the better team. Even there is not ideal but still doable.
In dota if your opponent drafts rushy, and he gets one lucky rune, or lucky rotation the game may be over in one push. Then what? The Drow team that got a lucky kill and a double damage r une to get rosh min 12, then win with one push is the one that deserves higher seed?
I'd agree that there were too few games per day - for example an average of 8 games, one day - 9. Thats like 3 Bo3s. Most of the games ended by 6-7 pm local time. More than enough time for 3 more bo1s ore one more bo3 without forcing players to stay up late.This saves one dayin the group stages. This means some money to organisers. Same goes for the final 8 bracket. In this format there are only 6 Bo3s and 1 bo5, you can easily do 4 by 4 upper / lower bracket layout that leads to 8 Bo3 + 1 Bo5, easily doable in 3 days. 4 Bo3s day 1. 3 Bo3s day 2 and Loser finals + Grand finals in the last day.
There a lot of ways to optiize the tournamet scehdule to fit the timetable and to please the fans.
Im with hunter_x that GSL format is the best for Dota groupstages. You can even mae the first round Bo1 to save time. Then out of thte 4 groups the group winners get to upper bracket losers to loser bracket and everyone are happy.
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Kotl has been such a mediocre pick for Liquid ever since TI. I'm not even surprised they're losing the laning phase as hard as they are at the moment. This happens in almost all of their Kotl games nowadays.
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Lalalaland34483 Posts
On March 09 2018 21:44 nothingmuch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2018 05:48 Firebolt145 wrote:On March 09 2018 02:43 nothingmuch wrote:On March 09 2018 01:56 Firebolt145 wrote:
It does mean that anyone eliminated has effectively only lost one bo3 or bo5. Is that enough to kick a team out of the tournament completely? Any tournament that runs single elim off of bo3's would still receive plenty of criticism for that.
Anyway now that Liquid are through we don't need to complain about it any more, leave it to the fans of teams that were eliminated. There's no scenario where losing a bo3 gets you kicked out of the tournament. You need to have 3 losses aka lose a bo5 to drop out. Whoops, you're right. Still though, would you accept a bo5 single elim tournament? Probably, sounds interesting but people would bitch about lucky brackets. Also it's just the group stage in this case. At the end of the day a cross table group stage with bo1s is not that different from doing a swiss like this- there's a certain cutoff/number of bo1s you have to win and if you don't you don't make it out of groups. Granted a 16 team cross table group stage would result in 7 games for each team while this way it's just 5 (max) so there's a little more room for error but the difference is not that big. The odd thing is that the tournament didn't really take advantage of the reduced number of games and (unnecessarily imo) spread them out quite a lot except for day3. Kuro said in an interview that he would have liked to play more games per day, so maybe the groups could have been done in 2 days.
One game a day is definitely way too sparse.
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I hope Liquid starts to pretend like Kotl doesn't exist as a hero anymore. Gh's time to shine on that hero has long gone.
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The last problem in that game wast KOTL. They lost all 3 lanes Both games. But this time they didn't have the heroes to get back in to the game. KOTL actually was the only hero that did somehting that game. I just don't understand why Kuro keeps drafting this shitty over and over and over and oaver again.
Stop trying to prove that you can beat anyone with anything YOU CANT. - don't make the Puppey mistake, you are better than him. Give your team a chance to play dota, they will deliver.
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On March 10 2018 02:29 NInoff wrote:
The last problem in that game wast KOTL. They lost all 3 lanes Both games. But this time they didn't have the heroes to get back in to the game. KOTL actually was the only hero that did somehting that game. I just don't understand why Kuro keeps drafting this shitty over and over and over and oaver again.
Stop trying to prove that you can beat anyone with anything YOU CANT. - don't make the Puppey mistake, you are better than him. Give your team a chance to play dota, they will deliver.
How is Kotl not the problem? Every Kotl game since the start of TI has been mediocre or terrible for Liquid.
The hero sits in a single lane and uses Chakra/Blast. He can't do anything else besides that. He can't help the safelane. He can't help the mid lane. He can't rotate at all because all he does is spam Chakra/Blast none which doesn't disable or slow anybody in any way.
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OK then replace it with IO, or any other support how that helps any lane? How that stops Chen? Problem was that after KOTL first pick they went for the 25 push & GG strat, and EG simply crushed it in the draft. All they had to do was crush Timber in lane then the game is over. Noone to do anything... Just mediocore draft, and EG played that perfectly.
P.S. GG on the draft again. This is going to be another stomp, just cant see them being able to do anything.
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On March 10 2018 02:38 NInoff wrote:P.S. GG on the draft again. This is going to be another stomp, just cant see them being able to do anything.
Come again? :D :D :D
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I mean, he wasn't wrong, it was another stomp and EG wasn't able to do anything.
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You guys are are both so clueless it's paniful
It wasn't a kotl draft but a bristle draft with kotl support which is still more than legit
Kotl bristle is all about the BB doing great and EG has the genius viper pick to bot lane, the whole strategy crumbles unless either bristle or timber don't get a big lead.
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Last game wasn't an outdraft or anything, seemed pretty even to me but the boys just played better some awesome key plays just turned the game around completely
Notably clutch as fuck saves on Veno and Omni at the last minute 3 big fights in a row
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EGs draft should have been stronger, but they seem incapable to adapt ingame or sacc sumail.
Plus the boys played amazing dota!
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Awesome stuff from the boys, that Omni pick in game 3 was fucking genious! This series proves why bo3 is just the way to go in dota. The team with the better mind games and stronger mentality wins 90% of the time. Maybe we can go all the way this major? Nevertheless, I am already ok with top 4;)
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Great 3rd game by liquid, 2nd game you could tell right from the get go (and MC confirmed in the interview) that it was a draft lost
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On March 10 2018 02:38 NInoff wrote:
P.S. GG on the draft again. This is going to be another stomp, just cant see them being able to do anything.
I am so glad i don't know as much about dota as our boys !  Its obvious that they do, but comeon - we were all scared...
Up until the last pick noone could see a way out but Kuro ( he was right... again ), that omni was indeed Genius, who knew he owns broodmother?
I mean on paper - Veno vs Beast + Lion and Razor + KotL vs Lifestealer| + Bane? With a Brood in the mid? I don't know how they did it but i am so happy that they did!
GG Boys! Can't wait for the game tomorrow!
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Kuro's drafts look like they're getting better and better
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keep spirit
keep strong
keep solid
kuro, amer, maroun, lesse, and ivan
lets go liquid
solid as liquid
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I don't understand why they let vp pick tb
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EPT
