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On October 25 2016 00:38 Xurr wrote:
I still think Fata- is the most underrated and least appreciated tier 1 caliber player. He was the stable backbone everyone else could rely on in the old Liquid. And that is exactly what is missing currently.
a lot of people hate on EE, but he called FATA the best player in the world at one point. (and I think he had a point)
FATA was also supposed to join kaipi/speed but they instead took aui. He's been very highly regarded in the pro scene for a while. He just doesn't have the marketable personality/flashy plays that a lot of the fans like to see.
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On October 25 2016 06:21 Anamorph wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2016 23:24 Drearcerberus wrote:
You're right in saying that you can blame certain people for not pulling their weight in a team, however, I think you're so obsessed with Bulba being the problem that you choose to ignore a lot of things. First of all, Liquid just changed 2/5 of their team and now has Kuro playing 4 position all the time, so the dynamic is different to begin with. FATA for all that he was or wasn't was a much more stable and much less farm dependent mid, while Miracle will make more flashy plays, but also has more games where he has bigger meltdowns. His old team was entirely centered around making him shine. Notail would basically play the 2 role from safelane, while Miracle was the teams true 1. So already just by adding Miracle to the team you're going to have a big change in dynamic on how you're going to treat your 1 and 2, when you didn't have that issue before and the team clearly has problems with this at times. Are we going to say that since Miracle doesn't perform the same roles that FATA did he doesn't fit the same playstyle and should be kicked? Do you think just adding Jerax to the team would magically fix the other issues? Bad drafts, poor laning decisions, failure to react to the other team's laning? Plus while Jerax is good, all his best heroes have been nerfed pretty hard and his impact on the game lessened from where it was at Liquid's highest point. A lot of his early rotations failed against the super defensive supports seen in the meta that started just before TI. I'm not saying Jerax isn't good, but his impact wasn't what it was.
Comparing Bulba to Jerax also really isn't the fairest either. He doesn't even really play the same role on the team. He's generally not going to be roaming and trying to pressure the opposing team. He's going to be more passive. As a support player he has his limitations, but good teams can play around that because all players have them. While he's not a mechanical genius he plays the role he needs to fairly well (and I don't think he's nearly as bad mechanically as people like to think). What you're really telling me with these comparisons is that you think Kuro is lacking at his new role.
Overall, I'm just not into this blame Bulba hype train. It just seems to me that people look at the old team ignore any issues it had. Then look their two new players and since Miracle has a god-like 9k MMR, obviously Bulba is the issue. Anytime you change half a team you're going to have issue especially when almost everyone on the team has underperformed.
Thats not true - I have clear arguments how a person affects a team and there is no way you can proof me wrong, the same for me proofing you wrong. FATA is super farm oriented - in the later stages where liquid was sucessfull, FATA was always highest GPM and he spammed a lot of super-farm heroes like Alch. He also was top 2 networth each time, even when he played razor. I remember several casters saying, "because of jerax roaming fata always gets top farm with chars not even made for flash-farm plays". Only because he is not playing flash-farmed mids, does not mean he is not super gpm dependend. He was - I totally disagree on that point. If we re talking about the FATA who spammed puck and beastmaster mid, okay, but this was not the period he was successful. Just to keep it simple - miracle proofed the world to be one of the best players who ever played this game. There is no proplayer who would ever call miracle overrated. He won 2 valve events and showed up. Same goes for Matumba, Kuro and MC. Thats the simple way to look at - bulba was part of the worlds best teams, secret, eg, liquid - and he achieved nothing. He has not proofed anything since he plays this game. Watch the bulba result table at liquipedia: if you find a 1rst its qualifiers or minors, if its flagged as premier its a price pool of max 5k. I dont believe in this "he is just unlucky and gets to teams in the wrong period"-stuff. No - good players also shine in bad teams. Look at archon, moo was their outstanding performance. If miracle really sticks to liquid after they fail for qualifing to boston, and they kick bulba and start to win games, I will quote you again my friend. I cant compare bulba to any tier 1 support. Because he is not good enough to be compared. He swapped in this position weeks ago, for sure he is not at his toptier, but he was not tier 1 offlane in secret or eg too. Bulba was t1 with a really rare amount of heroes like clock and mid-elder.. and for fucks sake, he was a good elder and they still dont draft this hero for em.
Moo outstanding in archon now thats a nice meme
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On October 24 2016 16:10 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2016 02:19 bagels21 wrote:On October 23 2016 17:56 Talin wrote:On October 23 2016 16:26 bluzi wrote:
They clearly havent roll with a team through thick and thin
You mean like the blogboys era or a full year without a team at all? Rolling with a team doesn't mean you have to be willfully blind. If a team doesn't look like it's going to work out in the first month or two at most, then it's not going to work out. On October 23 2016 16:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Except EG's rosters have been fairly home grown, with players who made their mark with EG, aside from Aui and Cr1t.
Liquid was the team that won before they got picked up. Sadboys and 5Jungz were picked up in pretty much the exact same way except 5jungz had way lower profile players on the roster who didn't have any prior success at all. Uhh??? FATA went to 3 straight TIs and had been on a top 3 western team (C9) Jerax had also just went to TI Kuro is one of the most famous western dota players of all time Matu was the star on 4anchors MC was the only new player lol "star on 4anchors" are you fucking kidding me? Well then MC was also the star player of Basically Unknown, so 5jungz were literally the Galacticos of Dota right? And while Fata was a reasonably famous player, he was never really successful, and was on the least successful C9 roster. Jerax went to TI once and got last place with Hot6. Kuro was litearlly the only successful LAN-winning player on the team no matter how hard you guys try to spin it.
C9 with Fata before they kicked Aui&PLD was the strongest iteration of C9 for sure.
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Miracle one of the best players who ever played the game? Versatility counts into that, he's played on one team with one style, the judges are still out on him as he doesn't have much history yet
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Didn't cr1t say on rtz stream that Miracle is overrated? Or is that just a rumor
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I am hyped for the Boston Qualifier
Do we have a schedule wenn Liquid games could take place?
Hype hype hype 
gogo liquid
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theres dreamleague in like 12 hours. they're playing escape
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On October 25 2016 08:16 LemOn wrote:
Miracle one of the best players who ever played the game? Versatility counts into that, he's played on one team with one style, the judges are still out on him as he doesn't have much history yet
Didn't he already won the "best of the world" award? I thought it lasts until the end of times, you can't take that away from him.
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I believe miracle still plays like the best, but there's a thin line now and the gameplay style has changed since OG dominated with their drafts and execution.
I think heroes like ET are yesteryear now on the assumption that teams know how to play against the roaming style better. the hero falls behind very quickly in levels and farm.
how much better is miracle than sumail? that depends solely on the heroes being played and why, and right now heroes are being figured out for this upcoming tournament.
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Thats not true - I have clear arguments how a person affects a team and there is no way you can proof me wrong, the same for me proofing you wrong.
I'm not disagreeing with the fact that one player can affect the dynamic of a team. What I am saying is the dynamic of this team was going to change the moment FATA retired and Jerax decided to leave for OG. You have two different players coming in. They play differently from the two players you had before. In this way sports and e-sports are similar. If I added LeBron James to my basketball team, how my team plays will be different. We'd call different plays and focus the offense differently. Same thing goes for DOTA, Bulba is not Jerax and Miracle is not FATA. They play different heroes and do different things well. As a team captain, you have to adjust to your teams strengths and weaknesses.
Just to keep it simple - miracle proofed the world to be one of the best players who ever played this game.
This has yet to be proven. What he has shown is that he is a very good player, who if his team makes him the focus of their strategy can dominate. However, his role team on this team and what he was in his old team is different. In OG, Miracle was almost always the true 1 with Notail taking less farm and fighting more often. In Liquid, you have Matumbaman and while he's a higher skilled player than Notail, he also requires more farm. So the relative position of 1 and 2 on the team will shift more often. The only person on this team with a long track record of success is Kuro.
Thats the simple way to look at - bulba was part of the worlds best teams, secret, eg, liquid - and he achieved nothing. He has not proofed anything since he plays this game.
If you think any of those teams he was on were "the best team in the world" than I don't know what to tell you. With the exception of Liquid all those teams were falling apart before he even joined them.
I dont believe in this "he is just unlucky and gets to teams in the wrong period"-stuff. No - good players also shine in bad teams. Look at archon, moo was their outstanding performance.
I don't believe he's been unlucky either. Bulba is what he is. A good player who generally doesn't standout. I'd say his ceiling isn't the highest, but his floor isn't the lowest. He's serviceable, but you can definitely win games with him. Liquid at one point after TI3 had very good records against most of the top teams (except Alliance) before they fell apart. As for good players always performing on bad teams, I can give you examples of the opposite. Look at Universe pre-sadboys and when he was on Secret. Would you say Universe was standout? That's because he wasn't. Being on a team that gels always makes everyone look better.
I cant compare bulba to any tier 1 support. Because he is not good enough to be compared. He swapped in this position weeks ago, for sure he is not at his toptier, but he was not tier 1 offlane in secret or eg too.
I agree he's not a top tier support, but that doesn't mean he's played badly. With the heroes he's been asked to play he's performed better than expected. His best support hero is SWM. It has been since he decided to support on Liquid for TI4. He's played Oracle and Shadow Demon well. I have't really been impressed by his KotL. I think his biggest issue is his warding. Since, he mainly plays defensive supports his rotations aren't going to be as frequent. Overall, I say he'll get better as he plays support more and the play from him so far has been good enough to win games.
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Escape vs Liquid coming up.
So happy to see a game from Escape.
So happy to see a game from Liquid.
Feelsbadman - don't know who to root for.
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So who's the standin they're playing with in the open qualifier? Are they trying to qualify without bulba?
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On October 25 2016 23:53 derElbe wrote:
Escape vs Liquid coming up.
So happy to see a game from Escape.
So happy to see a game from Liquid.
Feelsbadman - don't know who to root for.
Root for good, well played and innovative dota. And may Liquid play as a unit.
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United States1697 Posts
On October 26 2016 00:21 nojok wrote:
So who's the standin they're playing with in the open qualifier? Are they trying to qualify without bulba?
What?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
On October 26 2016 00:21 nojok wrote:
So who's the standin they're playing with in the open qualifier? Are they trying to qualify without bulba?
uhmm...whatever team you saw was probably just using their names.
Team Liquid has been invited to the main qualifier so they did not play in the opens
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Bulba is playing as "2." if that was the source of confusion
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This game is not looking good. That offlane 
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Are Liquid players together in a team house or something? or at least met for a couple of days of scrims? Seems like they queued together and everyone muted everyone.
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Miracle just not living up to expectations as a mid player.
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EPT
