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On October 23 2016 18:45 Talin wrote:
Fata wasn't very successful at all, ppd and zai had plenty of success in HoN.
Besides, MC and Matu basically only ever played in tier 3 teams and Jerax was also a fringe player.
Are you serious here? The Prize money was lower but Fata was an established solid successfull midlander for years. He was the one to replace singing for god's sake long time before liquid
You basically discredited everything you said, we had 2 established players and 3 newcomers to T1 teams
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The reason why people single out Bulba is because he's the only one that can be singled out - he's a clear downgrade from Jerax (who wouldn't be?) With really sub par track record, where all other 4 have been great players in the past .
I don't think it reflects what happens ingame at all, the drafts and execution of them and strategy is the issue
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On October 23 2016 19:01 Julmust wrote:FATA and Miracle- are very different midlaners. With FATA you always knew what you were gonna get. He had a deep hero pool but rarely (not saying never, just rarely) pulled off games like that Miracle- rubick we saw. Miracle- has higher highs but lower lows and I think that's why he wants to play with someone like Kuro. He doesn't want to be the pubstar who had 1-2 good years (think admiralbulldog), he wants to develop into that solid midlaner and believes that Kuro is the captain that can make that happen. Also I think it's ridiculous that people are trying to pin this on one person. This is a team game. The team hasn't been good overall. Kuro feeds too much midgame, Bulba misses skills in teamfights cause he's over excited, MindControl is feeding in the offlane way too often, Miracle hasn't really dominated mid in a single game, and Matumba's laning phases have been shaky. Now lets turn that around. Kuro feeds too often because his team doesn't back him up, Bulba misses skills, most likely, because people aren't calling correctly, MindControl feeds because he's playing incredibly hard match-ups, Miracle isn't dominating because Matumba also needs to farm the map, and Matumba's laning phase is shaky because Liquid isn't rotating in on the offlane too much. It's a team game. You win as a team, you lose as a team.
Your first part is correct - your conclusion at the end I cant agree.
The first part described their problems, we all can see in the game. There is nothing to discuss about them - they fail in the given aspects above.
But your conclusion is just guesswork. You can also point the problems to 1 person, you can point the problem to a team, you can point the problem to 2 persons.. what ever. Thats what starts the discussions. The way you look at this games is "each part is adding something negative to the game". But in real life if you work in projects and the project can not be delivered, I can clearly say its not always a "teamproblem". If someone can not fit a role, the rest of the team needs to compensate. Depending on the impact needed on that specific role, the aspects you need to compensate can effect your success in working roles drastically.
Lets go for an example:
The working liquid had an incredible good 4th position who offered FATA a good laning stage, supported matumba to get farm and was super dominant in teamfights. This gave kuro the chance to focus more on calls and he also was able to go for the 5th position plays he is super good with. The games kuro took the 4th (clock, bh.. etc) usually were lacking something. To enable kuro as a captain, he needs to be a 5th to observe the game the right way. To be able to make FATA work, you need to stabilize his laning stage.. blabla.
Now you have a different player with a different hero pool and different skillset - bulba. Kuro is forced to play 4th, because mechanically bulba is not able to perform as a 4th and he has a passive hero pool. Kuro is lacking his observing and strategical impact, because he is not used to this position, and shotcalling as 4th is difficult, successful captains usually play 5th (fly, ppd). Bulba is not able to pressure the enemy offlane, when they start to 2-1-2. He struggles hard in correct positionings and this means matumba needs to fight for lasthits which always gets em behind. Its not like matumba lost mechanics, he is still getting a lot out of a lane, not getting controlled by the support. The weakness of bulba shows, when the enemy team fully aggro lanes, same problem for kuro in aggro lane. He is not used to be the initiating part in the aggro lane, he showed it with the shadow shaman aggro plays -> awful. Kuro is a lean back player, observing fights and having a major impact with not a lot of farm, I remember him as the best rubi and visage.
Miracle comes from a mid, where the team does a lot to give em the space. This was the same with FATA. There is no difference, they also had to be babysitted if the draft was not favoured for them. Bulba as a mid support.. awful. Kuro as a mid support, only rarely playable with bh. Kuro does not shine in that position, that was jerax. So miracle lacks farm, and to compensate the bad midlane stage he always plays high risk and fails in all the games I saw, because he gets caught by rotations and incoming lane tps. Its not a pub when you play against a team, they will have supports backing..
So.. the other side to look at liquid is decribed above, one player influencing 3 player.
It was an example, I just wanted to show a different perspective where it is not about "its the teams fault". Yes you can say, kuro needs to step up as a captain, being able to call in 4th, matumba needs to start using non farm oriented safelanes, blabla.. but thats not how it works. It will take so much time to adjust 3-4 players to 1 player not fitting a needed role, and no one can say if the quality of them in this new position means, that they can win a major. From my perspective, if I would analyse it the above way, I would fix the one player not the 4 player who need to swap their sucessful playstyles.
Even if bulba is stable.. it does not mean kuro is able to perform as a good captain in 4th, able to play rotationbased supports with initiating potential in team fights, it does not mean matumba is able to play a good safelane with bulba as a passive supp, it does not mean miracle can shine when kuro lacks 4th skills...
That means being a team, you can be the best, if you dont fit the team, it will still not work.
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No wonder there are so many roster swaps when even so called fans start bitching and calling for roster swaps after a couple of months.
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I really would love to see some more (experimental) stuff like the Rubik mid 
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You guys think the big patch will hit before the Boston Quals? Or even before the Boston Major? Cause I think this will be a huge opportunity, since it works as kind of a reset for the team, where eversone will start more or less on the same footing.
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Liquid Won Epicenter, got 2 major 2nd places on previous patches. I would argue they edged out other great teams in these tournaments solely b/c Jerax was the best player in the game for either team in many games.
Insert patch 6.88b on July 12th. Jerax is no longer as dominant.
After July 12th Liquid beat Power Rangers 2-1, 3rd place at the summit, and go 8-12 at t16 for a 40% win rate.
That 40% winrate on 6.88b at ti6 includes 0 games played versus EG or Wings.
The Fata/Jerax iteration of Liquid was never great post 6.88b (July 12th).
Since 6.88b, Mind control, Kuro and Bulba all look underwhelming as players.
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On October 23 2016 17:56 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2016 16:26 bluzi wrote:
They clearly havent roll with a team through thick and thin
You mean like the blogboys era or a full year without a team at all? Rolling with a team doesn't mean you have to be willfully blind. If a team doesn't look like it's going to work out in the first month or two at most, then it's not going to work out. Show nested quote +On October 23 2016 16:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Except EG's rosters have been fairly home grown, with players who made their mark with EG, aside from Aui and Cr1t.
Liquid was the team that won before they got picked up. Sadboys and 5Jungz were picked up in pretty much the exact same way except 5jungz had way lower profile players on the roster who didn't have any prior success at all.
Uhh???
FATA went to 3 straight TIs and had been on a top 3 western team (C9)
Jerax had also just went to TI
Kuro is one of the most famous western dota players of all time
Matu was the star on 4anchors
MC was the only new player lol
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On October 23 2016 17:56 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2016 16:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Except EG's rosters have been fairly home grown, with players who made their mark with EG, aside from Aui and Cr1t.
Liquid was the team that won before they got picked up. Sadboys and 5Jungz were picked up in pretty much the exact same way except 5jungz had way lower profile players on the roster who didn't have any prior success at all.
By all accounts Sadboys was unofficially EG from the start, they just didn't want to announce it until they'd tried out the roster for a bit (seeing how the previous lineup went). Fear and Universe were still EG when Sadboys happened.
Kuroky and Fata were on C9 and Navi, in no way low profile. But I'd say it's equivalent to Fear and Universe (who were popular but saw little success) and Arteezy, who was a rising star at the time.
Biggest difference would be, unless negotiations and talks happened over a month or so (which is entirely possible), 5Jungz had already qualified for at least Nanyang and maybe D2CL playoffs before getting signed.
On October 23 2016 19:42 LemOn wrote:
The reason why people single out Bulba is because he's the only one that can be singled out - he's a clear downgrade from Jerax (who wouldn't be?) With really sub par track record, where all other 4 have been great players in the past .
I don't think it reflects what happens ingame at all, the drafts and execution of them and strategy is the issue
Well, the amusing thing is that 20 or so pages back the biggest praise for Bulba was that he would provide pro-player vetted draft strategy analysis and early game leadership to the team.
He probably doesn't deserve the blame on Liquid, but he's obviously not providing what he's been touted for.
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On October 23 2016 21:39 Aldehyde wrote:
No wonder there are so many roster swaps when even so called fans start bitching and calling for roster swaps after a couple of months.
It happens all the time in sports that two talented players don't work well together, it's the same in dota. Getting rid of a good player in order to improve the team chemistry is a must in any team game, be it a ball game or a video game. Liquid will have plenty of time to think about it after the qualifiers. Though they can still find the recipe to success by the time it takes place.
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To be honest Bulba performed way above we all expected. He is actually the most stable player in the team for all 25 games they played. Yes there were a couple of missed spells and a couple of bad positioning, bud overall stable play, he did his job especially in the fights. All others have had at least two awful games. Maybe MC didn't have awful level but he had some bad games. Matu, Miracle, Kuro all played disaster level bad on at least couple of occasions.
I've been watching some replays and i realised that maybe the teams biggest problem is vision. Since warding is not very good - their wards are often found, and most importantly enemy wards are rarely dewarded in time. When they''ve had heroes that provide vision like Beastmaster or ward finders like Slark the results were pretty good.
Maybe the thing they need the most is a coach. Someone to analyse what went wrong, and show them their mistakes from a different perspective.
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On October 24 2016 02:19 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2016 17:56 Talin wrote:On October 23 2016 16:26 bluzi wrote:
They clearly havent roll with a team through thick and thin
You mean like the blogboys era or a full year without a team at all? Rolling with a team doesn't mean you have to be willfully blind. If a team doesn't look like it's going to work out in the first month or two at most, then it's not going to work out. On October 23 2016 16:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Except EG's rosters have been fairly home grown, with players who made their mark with EG, aside from Aui and Cr1t.
Liquid was the team that won before they got picked up. Sadboys and 5Jungz were picked up in pretty much the exact same way except 5jungz had way lower profile players on the roster who didn't have any prior success at all. Uhh??? FATA went to 3 straight TIs and had been on a top 3 western team (C9) Jerax had also just went to TI Kuro is one of the most famous western dota players of all time Matu was the star on 4anchors MC was the only new player lol
"star on 4anchors" are you fucking kidding me? Well then MC was also the star player of Basically Unknown, so 5jungz were literally the Galacticos of Dota right?
And while Fata was a reasonably famous player, he was never really successful, and was on the least successful C9 roster. Jerax went to TI once and got last place with Hot6.
Kuro was litearlly the only successful LAN-winning player on the team no matter how hard you guys try to spin it.
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I don't know if I'd go to the lengths of calling Matu the star of 4asc or something, but I do remember casters hyping him up quite a lot already like 2 years or so ago when he was making some waves carrying them to victory on the back of his Slark a fair number of times.
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how are the boys holding out, any great games to watch lately?
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On October 24 2016 19:22 nanaoei wrote:
how are the boys holding out, any great games to watch lately?
Sadly, no.
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On October 24 2016 03:06 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2016 21:39 Aldehyde wrote:
No wonder there are so many roster swaps when even so called fans start bitching and calling for roster swaps after a couple of months. It happens all the time in sports that two talented players don't work well together, it's the same in dota. Getting rid of a good player in order to improve the team chemistry is a must in any team game, be it a ball game or a video game. Liquid will have plenty of time to think about it after the qualifiers. Though they can still find the recipe to success by the time it takes place.
Not disagreeing with that, I just don't agree that a month or two is enough to be able to say outright what it is that's not working.
Especially not with the heavy focus on bulba, I just don't agree that he's the main issue right now, or at all, really.
And the fact that supposed fans of a team are so ready to jump on a single player to blame is just awful.
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On October 23 2016 19:59 Anamorph wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2016 19:01 Julmust wrote:On October 23 2016 17:28 clusen wrote:
I miss FATA, he made shit work. FATA and Miracle- are very different midlaners. With FATA you always knew what you were gonna get. He had a deep hero pool but rarely (not saying never, just rarely) pulled off games like that Miracle- rubick we saw. Miracle- has higher highs but lower lows and I think that's why he wants to play with someone like Kuro. He doesn't want to be the pubstar who had 1-2 good years (think admiralbulldog), he wants to develop into that solid midlaner and believes that Kuro is the captain that can make that happen. Also I think it's ridiculous that people are trying to pin this on one person. This is a team game. The team hasn't been good overall. Kuro feeds too much midgame, Bulba misses skills in teamfights cause he's over excited, MindControl is feeding in the offlane way too often, Miracle hasn't really dominated mid in a single game, and Matumba's laning phases have been shaky. Now lets turn that around. Kuro feeds too often because his team doesn't back him up, Bulba misses skills, most likely, because people aren't calling correctly, MindControl feeds because he's playing incredibly hard match-ups, Miracle isn't dominating because Matumba also needs to farm the map, and Matumba's laning phase is shaky because Liquid isn't rotating in on the offlane too much. It's a team game. You win as a team, you lose as a team. Your first part is correct - your conclusion at the end I cant agree. The first part described their problems, we all can see in the game. There is nothing to discuss about them - they fail in the given aspects above. But your conclusion is just guesswork. You can also point the problems to 1 person, you can point the problem to a team, you can point the problem to 2 persons.. what ever. Thats what starts the discussions. The way you look at this games is "each part is adding something negative to the game". But in real life if you work in projects and the project can not be delivered, I can clearly say its not always a "teamproblem". If someone can not fit a role, the rest of the team needs to compensate. Depending on the impact needed on that specific role, the aspects you need to compensate can effect your success in working roles drastically. Lets go for an example: The working liquid had an incredible good 4th position who offered FATA a good laning stage, supported matumba to get farm and was super dominant in teamfights. This gave kuro the chance to focus more on calls and he also was able to go for the 5th position plays he is super good with. The games kuro took the 4th (clock, bh.. etc) usually were lacking something. To enable kuro as a captain, he needs to be a 5th to observe the game the right way. To be able to make FATA work, you need to stabilize his laning stage.. blabla. Now you have a different player with a different hero pool and different skillset - bulba. Kuro is forced to play 4th, because mechanically bulba is not able to perform as a 4th and he has a passive hero pool. Kuro is lacking his observing and strategical impact, because he is not used to this position, and shotcalling as 4th is difficult, successful captains usually play 5th (fly, ppd). Bulba is not able to pressure the enemy offlane, when they start to 2-1-2. He struggles hard in correct positionings and this means matumba needs to fight for lasthits which always gets em behind. Its not like matumba lost mechanics, he is still getting a lot out of a lane, not getting controlled by the support. The weakness of bulba shows, when the enemy team fully aggro lanes, same problem for kuro in aggro lane. He is not used to be the initiating part in the aggro lane, he showed it with the shadow shaman aggro plays -> awful. Kuro is a lean back player, observing fights and having a major impact with not a lot of farm, I remember him as the best rubi and visage. Miracle comes from a mid, where the team does a lot to give em the space. This was the same with FATA. There is no difference, they also had to be babysitted if the draft was not favoured for them. Bulba as a mid support.. awful. Kuro as a mid support, only rarely playable with bh. Kuro does not shine in that position, that was jerax. So miracle lacks farm, and to compensate the bad midlane stage he always plays high risk and fails in all the games I saw, because he gets caught by rotations and incoming lane tps. Its not a pub when you play against a team, they will have supports backing.. So.. the other side to look at liquid is decribed above, one player influencing 3 player. It was an example, I just wanted to show a different perspective where it is not about "its the teams fault". Yes you can say, kuro needs to step up as a captain, being able to call in 4th, matumba needs to start using non farm oriented safelanes, blabla.. but thats not how it works. It will take so much time to adjust 3-4 players to 1 player not fitting a needed role, and no one can say if the quality of them in this new position means, that they can win a major. From my perspective, if I would analyse it the above way, I would fix the one player not the 4 player who need to swap their sucessful playstyles. Even if bulba is stable.. it does not mean kuro is able to perform as a good captain in 4th, able to play rotationbased supports with initiating potential in team fights, it does not mean matumba is able to play a good safelane with bulba as a passive supp, it does not mean miracle can shine when kuro lacks 4th skills... That means being a team, you can be the best, if you dont fit the team, it will still not work.
You're right in saying that you can blame certain people for not pulling their weight in a team, however, I think you're so obsessed with Bulba being the problem that you choose to ignore a lot of things. First of all, Liquid just changed 2/5 of their team and now has Kuro playing 4 position all the time, so the dynamic is different to begin with. FATA for all that he was or wasn't was a much more stable and much less farm dependent mid, while Miracle will make more flashy plays, but also has more games where he has bigger meltdowns. His old team was entirely centered around making him shine. Notail would basically play the 2 role from safelane, while Miracle was the teams true 1. So already just by adding Miracle to the team you're going to have a big change in dynamic on how you're going to treat your 1 and 2, when you didn't have that issue before and the team clearly has problems with this at times. Are we going to say that since Miracle doesn't perform the same roles that FATA did he doesn't fit the same playstyle and should be kicked? Do you think just adding Jerax to the team would magically fix the other issues? Bad drafts, poor laning decisions, failure to react to the other team's laning? Plus while Jerax is good, all his best heroes have been nerfed pretty hard and his impact on the game lessened from where it was at Liquid's highest point. A lot of his early rotations failed against the super defensive supports seen in the meta that started just before TI. I'm not saying Jerax isn't good, but his impact wasn't what it was.
Comparing Bulba to Jerax also really isn't the fairest either. He doesn't even really play the same role on the team. He's generally not going to be roaming and trying to pressure the opposing team. He's going to be more passive. As a support player he has his limitations, but good teams can play around that because all players have them. While he's not a mechanical genius he plays the role he needs to fairly well (and I don't think he's nearly as bad mechanically as people like to think). What you're really telling me with these comparisons is that you think Kuro is lacking at his new role.
Overall, I'm just not into this blame Bulba hype train. It just seems to me that people look at the old team ignore any issues it had. Then look their two new players and since Miracle has a god-like 9k MMR, obviously Bulba is the issue. Anytime you change half a team you're going to have issue especially when almost everyone on the team has underperformed.
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On October 24 2016 16:10 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2016 02:19 bagels21 wrote:On October 23 2016 17:56 Talin wrote:On October 23 2016 16:26 bluzi wrote:
They clearly havent roll with a team through thick and thin
You mean like the blogboys era or a full year without a team at all? Rolling with a team doesn't mean you have to be willfully blind. If a team doesn't look like it's going to work out in the first month or two at most, then it's not going to work out. On October 23 2016 16:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Except EG's rosters have been fairly home grown, with players who made their mark with EG, aside from Aui and Cr1t.
Liquid was the team that won before they got picked up. Sadboys and 5Jungz were picked up in pretty much the exact same way except 5jungz had way lower profile players on the roster who didn't have any prior success at all. Uhh??? FATA went to 3 straight TIs and had been on a top 3 western team (C9) Jerax had also just went to TI Kuro is one of the most famous western dota players of all time Matu was the star on 4anchors MC was the only new player lol "star on 4anchors" are you fucking kidding me? Well then MC was also the star player of Basically Unknown, so 5jungz were literally the Galacticos of Dota right? And while Fata was a reasonably famous player, he was never really successful, and was on the least successful C9 roster. Jerax went to TI once and got last place with Hot6. Kuro was litearlly the only successful LAN-winning player on the team no matter how hard you guys try to spin it.
The least successful C9 was still more successful than any team Fear or Universe were on pre-ppd. Actually, when you get down to it, Matumbaman, Jerax and MC had about equivalent results to them. Lots of middling placements with no big wins.
Arteezy was actually the most successful player on that EG squad at the start...with a single premier tournament win as a stand-in.
Kuro alone going into 5jungz easily eclipsed any results of the SADBOYS team collectively.
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I still think Fata- is the most underrated and least appreciated tier 1 caliber player. He was the stable backbone everyone else could rely on in the old Liquid. And that is exactly what is missing currently.
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On October 24 2016 23:24 Drearcerberus wrote:
You're right in saying that you can blame certain people for not pulling their weight in a team, however, I think you're so obsessed with Bulba being the problem that you choose to ignore a lot of things. First of all, Liquid just changed 2/5 of their team and now has Kuro playing 4 position all the time, so the dynamic is different to begin with. FATA for all that he was or wasn't was a much more stable and much less farm dependent mid, while Miracle will make more flashy plays, but also has more games where he has bigger meltdowns. His old team was entirely centered around making him shine. Notail would basically play the 2 role from safelane, while Miracle was the teams true 1. So already just by adding Miracle to the team you're going to have a big change in dynamic on how you're going to treat your 1 and 2, when you didn't have that issue before and the team clearly has problems with this at times. Are we going to say that since Miracle doesn't perform the same roles that FATA did he doesn't fit the same playstyle and should be kicked? Do you think just adding Jerax to the team would magically fix the other issues? Bad drafts, poor laning decisions, failure to react to the other team's laning? Plus while Jerax is good, all his best heroes have been nerfed pretty hard and his impact on the game lessened from where it was at Liquid's highest point. A lot of his early rotations failed against the super defensive supports seen in the meta that started just before TI. I'm not saying Jerax isn't good, but his impact wasn't what it was.
Comparing Bulba to Jerax also really isn't the fairest either. He doesn't even really play the same role on the team. He's generally not going to be roaming and trying to pressure the opposing team. He's going to be more passive. As a support player he has his limitations, but good teams can play around that because all players have them. While he's not a mechanical genius he plays the role he needs to fairly well (and I don't think he's nearly as bad mechanically as people like to think). What you're really telling me with these comparisons is that you think Kuro is lacking at his new role.
Overall, I'm just not into this blame Bulba hype train. It just seems to me that people look at the old team ignore any issues it had. Then look their two new players and since Miracle has a god-like 9k MMR, obviously Bulba is the issue. Anytime you change half a team you're going to have issue especially when almost everyone on the team has underperformed.
Thats not true - I have clear arguments how a person affects a team and there is no way you can proof me wrong, the same for me proofing you wrong.
FATA is super farm oriented - in the later stages where liquid was sucessfull, FATA was always highest GPM and he spammed a lot of super-farm heroes like Alch. He also was top 2 networth each time, even when he played razor. I remember several casters saying, "because of jerax roaming fata always gets top farm with chars not even made for flash-farm plays". Only because he is not playing flash-farmed mids, does not mean he is not super gpm dependend. He was - I totally disagree on that point. If we re talking about the FATA who spammed puck and beastmaster mid, okay, but this was not the period he was successful.
Just to keep it simple - miracle proofed the world to be one of the best players who ever played this game. There is no proplayer who would ever call miracle overrated. He won 2 valve events and showed up. Same goes for Matumba, Kuro and MC. Thats the simple way to look at - bulba was part of the worlds best teams, secret, eg, liquid - and he achieved nothing. He has not proofed anything since he plays this game.
Watch the bulba result table at liquipedia: if you find a 1rst its qualifiers or minors, if its flagged as premier its a price pool of max 5k. I dont believe in this "he is just unlucky and gets to teams in the wrong period"-stuff. No - good players also shine in bad teams. Look at archon, moo was their outstanding performance.
If miracle really sticks to liquid after they fail for qualifing to boston, and they kick bulba and start to win games, I will quote you again my friend.
I cant compare bulba to any tier 1 support. Because he is not good enough to be compared. He swapped in this position weeks ago, for sure he is not at his toptier, but he was not tier 1 offlane in secret or eg too. Bulba was t1 with a really rare amount of heroes like clock and mid-elder.. and for fucks sake, he was a good elder and they still dont draft this hero for em.
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EPT
