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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
That's exactly what I said. When people talk about who is better in sports, win shares is one of the primary metrics. It's a pretty simple concept to borrow for dota. All else held equal, a team will win more games with Miracle than Notail. Not a particularly inflammatory statement by any measure. So either you really have a wild definition of what makes a better player or more likely you're avoiding the actual discussion by playing semantics. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On August 17 2016 07:10 hariooo wrote: That's exactly what I said. When people talk about who is better in sports, win shares is one of the primary metrics. It's a pretty simple concept to borrow for dota. All else held equal, a team will win more games with Miracle than Notail. Not a particularly inflammatory statement by any measure. So either you really have a wild definition of what makes a better player or more likely you're avoiding the actual discussion by playing semantics. All else is rarely equal though. | ||
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nayumi
Australia6499 Posts
On August 16 2016 01:01 hariooo wrote: First part was answered by others. Second part is easy too. Why would miracle join Notail and Fly last year when they had mediocre results their entire dota career? It's because he saw something in them and believed in the potential of the team. To say that Secret's poor performance over the last half season is a complete disqualifier for Miracle to want to play with Arteezy and Puppey makes no sense. No one knows where Miracle will go but I think the evidence is clearly pointing to him leaving OG. Your argument has an obvious flaw though: - Miracle was still pubstar before he joined OG. - He's one of the most established and consistent top tier player now. So the position that he's in now is completely different to what it was when he decided to join OG. Not to say he should or should not join Puppey/Rtz, but it's sure as hell he'd have a lot more to think about than he did with OG then. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On August 17 2016 11:21 nayumi wrote: Your argument has an obvious flaw though: - Miracle was still pubstar before he joined OG. - He's one of the most established and consistent top tier player now. So the position that he's in now is completely different to what it was when he decided to join OG. Not to say he should or should not join Puppey/Rtz, but it's sure as hell he'd have a lot more to think about than he did with OG then. All I'm saying is that he will play with whoever he sees potential with. On paper OG was a much worse team than Secret at the time. So therefore just because the latest Secret iteration was bad doesn't mean he can't believe in the new team, whatever it is. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
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Racket
3023 Posts
On August 15 2016 02:00 hariooo wrote: OG will shuffle because OG can't afford to pay Miracle the 6 figure salary his new contract will be worth. Simple as that. On August 17 2016 12:27 hariooo wrote: All I'm saying is that he will play with whoever he sees potential with. On paper OG was a much worse team than Secret at the time. So therefore just because the latest Secret iteration was bad doesn't mean he can't believe in the new team, whatever it is. Relevant quotes. So: - He is leaving OG because they can't afford to pay him 6 figures. - He is joining a team that can pay him what he is worth after this TI - He is joining a team he sees potential in Paying what he is worth leaves OG out and reduces the possible teams to join to EG and Secret. Which potential could he see in joining Secret instead of EG? None I guess. Secret failed miserably both TIs where EG won one and ended up third on the other while at the beginning of TI they were a contender for the first and a non factor for the second. So the team he will join is EG... well, seeing potential is subjective so he can easily join Secret or VP if they were to offer the right amount, right? Does any of these premises override the others? How and what impact does the override have in the final decision? Also, if the same that happened to RTZ were to happen to Miracle (being he the best player of the world for the community, the first in 2014/2015 and the second in 2016) then every team he joins will end up winning nothing. Was RTZ overrated? Possibly not, but being so good/the best doesn't immediately translate to "he will win more than those who are worse than him (n0tail for instance)". He can leave OG and win TI or nothing at all even if the bets are all on him. | ||
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Archeon
3260 Posts
And even if they shuffle I really doubt EG is gonna get rid of Sumail. He underperformed in the semis, but he played a good ti until then and is still one of their star players. Also there's a good likelihood that Sumail's deal is better then what he's worth. So it's likely Secret.Miracle. They need a midlaner anyways. | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
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Archeon
3260 Posts
On August 17 2016 17:33 LemOn wrote: Do Secret even pay their players salary? True there's a good chance that Miracle gets a high salary promised but they never actually pay. | ||
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Dysisa
Sweden2376 Posts
On August 17 2016 17:33 LemOn wrote: Do Secret even pay their players salary? No, Arteezy obvs went back there because he likes playing without getting paid | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On August 17 2016 17:55 Dysisa wrote: No, Arteezy obvs went back there because he likes playing without getting paid Well, n0tail didn't get paid so.. unless he got and never said it. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
Either way the new cr1tless miracleless OG has work cut out for them | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On August 18 2016 00:23 hariooo wrote: This guy keeps saying he's done but jumps back into the conversation when it's convenient lol. Either way the new cr1tless miracleless OG has work cut out for them Hey don't be like that, I am not the only one here answering you! New information is always convenient, talking about the same thing over and over reaching no conclusion makes no sense. But if I feel we can go further thanks to new info I won't miss the chance. You could address it instead of bashing. When Talin answered you, you removed the context by bolding a part of his answer trying to make it appear as a statement on itself, when his complete statement made a lot of sense, and you did it only to look down on him. If you were to actually focus on the discussion, the arguments and the information we share instead of bashing and flamming and looking down on others we could easily reach a conclusion. Just read your posts from page 21 till now and you see you can't have a conversation or discuss a topic because you attack and insult people instead. And when anyone here points out an unaccurate comment you made you avoid it or dismiss it as being picky. If we were to summarize your posts from the last two pages you went from saying Miracle will leave OG because "they can't pay him what he is worth" to "he may see potential on a new team", but what if he sees more potential in OG than in any other (given it is completely subjective)? Will he leave OG anyway because he is not getting paid what he is worth? I don't want to focus on your wording, I prefer you answering yourself instead of trying to understand the connection left out between posts. I don't doubt how well Miracle can do in another team, but saying he will give the team more wins than n0tail would do is understandable and acceptable but impossible to prove thus a really silly thing to use as an argument here as we are not arguing about who is better or who should earn more but why would he leave and where to. You could say RTZ will give OG more wins than of n0tail because he is a better player/carry and that could end up being completely false. In the end, if he leaves OG we will never know the real reason. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On August 18 2016 01:35 Racket wrote: Hey don't be like that, I am not the only one here answering you! New information is always convenient, talking about the same thing over and over reaching no conclusion makes no sense. But if I feel we can go further thanks to new info I won't miss the chance. You could address it instead of bashing. When Talin answered you, you removed the context by bolding a part of his answer trying to make it appear as a statement on itself, when his complete statement made a lot of sense, and you did it only to look down on him. If you were to actually focus on the discussion, the arguments and the information we share instead of bashing and flamming and looking down on others we could easily reach a conclusion. Just read your posts from page 21 till now and you see you can't have a conversation or discuss a topic because you attack and insult people instead. And when anyone here points out an unaccurate comment you made you avoid it or dismiss it as being picky. If we were to summarize your posts from the last two pages you went from saying Miracle will leave OG because "they can't pay him what he is worth" to "he may see potential on a new team", but what if he sees more potential in OG than in any other (given it is completely subjective)? Will he leave OG anyway because he is not getting paid what he is worth? I don't want to focus on your wording, I prefer you answering yourself instead of trying to understand the connection left out between posts. I don't doubt how well Miracle can do in another team, but saying he will give the team more wins than n0tail would do is understandable and acceptable but impossible to prove thus a really silly thing to use as an argument here as we are not arguing about who is better or who should earn more but why would he leave and where to. You could say RTZ will give OG more wins than of n0tail because he is a better player/carry and that could end up being completely false. In the end, if he leaves OG we will never know the real reason. Man you are the biggest hypocrite in this thread. Are you ever going to explain why Miracle would stay on OG because it's the best team ever while simultaneously thinking Notail should retire from OG after his best year ever? I don't think so. Meanwhile you want to criticize me for stripping context from the discussion when Talin literally posted a meaningless one-liner response? It really looks like you have an agenda. Miracle can have more than one reason to leave a team. Me providing two reasons isn't some gotcha moment for you. Can he think OG has more potential and stay? Of course. I've literally never said otherwise beyond speculating he'd probably have better luck elsewhere. I just said that in response to people who think he would never join Secret because they currently suck. But if you remove if from the proper context I guess that's more convenient for you to use against me? What you're doing is straight up projection. When you say you're done talking to me, stick to your word next time. I was nice enough to leave your inane comments alone until you couldn't help yourself. | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
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Racket
3023 Posts
On August 18 2016 02:30 hariooo wrote: Man you are the biggest hypocrite in this thread. Are you ever going to explain why Miracle would stay on OG because it's the best team ever while simultaneously thinking Notail should retire from OG after his best year ever? I don't think so. I quote myself to show you that I never said what you "quote", thing you could do yourself: On August 16 2016 02:15 Racket wrote: I find more realistic that n0tail retires and they look for another carry to replace him, hopefully they will stick together. I don't even imagine what Miracle- could see in leaving OG... like which other team was more successful than OG the past year? OG is for me the most dominant and achieved team of 2016. Yeah, they lost TI, but if you accept the fact that anyone can beat anyone then losing TI is sadly a result that can happen and they just have to look forward to TI7 and a new year to dominate before it takes place. I find more realistic n0tail retiring because he said he thought of that more than once before and iirc he also mentioned it in your video. So he going back to the same thought over and over might make him give up and retire (emotionally speaking). Why do I find it more possible than Miracle leaving OG? Because it is the first team ever he played in and it was a really good year taking into account he won two Majors and was at the top the scene for so long. I don't know him very well due to him not giving a lot of interviews so I do not allow myself to assume as freely as I do with n0tail. That is why I said it is also possible that he leaves. I didn't answer you that because I was already bothered by you avoiding my comment on your false evidence aka video, where you really paying attention when you watched the video or was it just us as you pointed out? On August 18 2016 02:30 hariooo wrote: Meanwhile you want to criticize me for stripping context from the discussion when Talin literally posted a meaningless one-liner response? It really looks like you have an agenda. Is this a one-liner response? On August 17 2016 00:39 Talin wrote: That is a highly questionable assumption. On average the likelihood that Notail on OG with one different player will perform better than Miracle with four different teammates and a different captain is actually quite good. Miracle has never played on a team outside of OG. It's impossible to say how much of his performance will carry over to a different team, and thus it is impossible to rationally formulate a player's individual value outside the context of his current team. And you bolded this: it is impossible to rationally formulate a player's individual value outside the context of his current team How is that not stripping context? Read the whole paragraph and it makes sense. Even easier for you: Miracle has never played on a team outside of OG. It's impossible to say how much of his performance will carry over to a different team, and thus it is impossible to rationally formulate a player's individual value outside the context of his current team. If you want to make a generalization out of the word "player", it is you being picky to bash him because if you use Miracle in place of player it is a quite alright statement. On August 18 2016 02:30 hariooo wrote: Miracle can have more than one reason to leave a team. Me providing two reasons isn't some gotcha moment for you. Can he think OG has more potential and stay? Of course. I've literally never said otherwise beyond speculating he'd probably have better luck elsewhere. I just said that in response to people who think he would never join Secret because they currently suck. But if you remove if from the proper context I guess that's more convenient for you to use against me? What you're doing is straight up projection. This was your original comment: On August 15 2016 02:00 hariooo wrote: OG will shuffle because OG can't afford to pay Miracle the 6 figure salary his new contract will be worth. Simple as that. After people mentioned why would he join Secret (in response to your high horse answer "I'm going to have to insist you study the concept of expected value. It's not like he'd be joining complexity. EG or Secret are plausible candidates.") you began to try and defend Secret with the argument "Why would miracle join Notail and Fly last year when they had mediocre results their entire dota career? It's because he saw something in them and believed in the potential of the team." So if you are gonna say something as direct as "OG can't afford to pay Miracle the 6 figure salary" (while bashing people with your vast knowledge instead of having a healthy conversation), but when confronted with the reality that there are not a lot of teams that qualify as possible TI material, you try to aliviate Secret's history of failure with OG founders' dota careers, you are leaving yourself open to critics. It isn't some gotcha moment, it is you posting facts and then going like you posted nothing factic when you actually did and bashed people because of it. You could try posting opinions instead of facts. When you do you will see a lot of answers as information instead of targets to bash and flame. On August 18 2016 02:30 hariooo wrote: When you say you're done talking to me, stick to your word next time. I was nice enough to leave your inane comments alone until you couldn't help yourself. You can't help it, you go full AD HOMINEM and try to be a sophist but you need a lot of practice because you are doing it wrong. You try to weaken people's resolve by bashing and flaming and looking down on them which won't work with me, every time I am done with you it doesn't mean you won or you are right, it means you are in my eyes helpless and immature and it bothers me to answer you any longer because I feel there is no helping you. I am done with you when I feel no matter what I write I won't reach you. If the day after I find "convenient information" I believe I can use to get through to you I will use it, but at the end of the day with you is always the same. One more thing that makes me feel I am done with you is when we full a page only with our posts reaching no conclusion while you insulting and hating, which ends up calling moderators attention which should not happen if you were nicer. On August 18 2016 03:10 LemOn wrote: Jesus so many posts and neither of you actually said anything :D That is right, just exactly what I just wrote..... | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
Meanwhile that other guy posted twice and his second post was some one-line nonsense. But if you spin it to make it look like I was talking about his initial response then you're not really being honest anymore. So nothing more to say there. Saying dumb shit like "it's impossible to assess how a player might perform outside his original team" is going to lead to people laughing at you. By that logic you have no way to differentiate between Miracle and Attacker joining Secret. That's ridiculous. Just because people can't predict the future doesn't mean they can't up with good judgment calls to individual player skill. I mean the fact that you can't comprehend that Miracle will want a team than can both pay him as well as perform well says it all. OG can provide the latter but EG/Secret can provide both. You're trying to spin it in such a way that there's a contradiction but maybe you really just don't understand what you're reading. This whole thing started with you agreeing with someone else calling me a douchebag and now you're going to write a wall of text with a straight face trying to point your fingers at me for hurting your feelings? Man the hypocrisy is out of control. You really think posting this sanctimonious response is going to convince anyone? I'm pretty sure the immature move here is to loudly proclaim to the thread that you're done talking to me but are so helpless you can't help yourself but to reply again within 24 hours. And now it looks like you're trying to pull that same move again? What a joke you are. Why would anyone reach a conclusion anyway? This is essentially a shuffle speculation thread. There are no conclusions until the end. Setting an arbitrary goal that can't be reached and blaming that on me when you are fully part of the problem isn't going to work. Honestly it just sounds like you got triggered because I suggested Miracle was leaving. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
Hope your team sticks together, so far no twitter accounts show any sign of the opposite. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On August 18 2016 04:34 Racket wrote: I just took it to PMs guys so you don't have to suffer any more of this. Hope your team sticks together, so far no twitter accounts show any sign of the opposite. Did you just act like you took the high ground by taking it to PM's and immediately direct another statement towards me in the very next line? Do you hear how ridiculous you sound? | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On August 18 2016 05:14 hariooo wrote: Did you just act like you took the high ground by taking it to PM's and immediately direct another statement towards me in the very next line? Do you hear how ridiculous you sound? You got it wrong. With "team" I meant OG, not Secret. We are in the OG thread and the "your" in my post refers to the "guys" from the previous sentence, to the OG fans in here. | ||
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