EPTTeam Secret Discussion - Page 203
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
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pyrocumulus
United States65 Posts
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Anamorph
236 Posts
1437 and aui based on registration site. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
i never really understood why a lineup that could barely high ground push against Secret with a 20k networth lead and almost threw was considered an outdraft. Of course the Wyvern was a great pick but all it did was save LGD from throwing a game they should've won regardless. | ||
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Anamorph
236 Posts
On August 24 2016 05:16 hariooo wrote: honestly i'm pretty happy bone7 came out and said the draft against LGD wasn't bad at all. i never really understood why a lineup that could barely high ground push against Secret with a 20k networth lead and almost threw was considered an outdraft. Of course the Wyvern was a great pick but all it did was save LGD from throwing a game they should've won regardless. Ask 5 pros you get 5 different analysis about that draft ; ) .. and there is no bone7-proofed "trademark". | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On August 24 2016 06:03 Anamorph wrote: Ask 5 pros you get 5 different analysis about that draft ; ) .. and there is no bone7-proofed "trademark". I'm happy to look at another pro's opinion if it's out there. Only see shitty reddit opinions though. You haven't even offered an opposing position. Bone gave his reasoning. You basically just said "some other pro might hypothetically have a different opinion and bone7 isn't always right". That's meaningless. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
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the bear jew
United States3674 Posts
On August 24 2016 06:32 spudde123 wrote: I don't really see the point in flaming the draft. One can have different opinions but it wasn't really due to the draft that Maybe killed Arteezy mid, Secret's rotations ended in Secret guys dying or that Maybe got all those kills. The game was almost winnable for Secret despite being terribly behind after 10 minutes and losing all map control, it would have been definitely winnable if they didn't give away all that ground early on. I didn't really like the draft because LGD lost to something very similar when TNC ran it and they did a very good job punishing it and disrupting Secret's game plan for the draft. They still nearly lost cause the draft and plan was strong, but Secret executed badly for a lot of the game and LGD played well for most of it. There were glimmers of hope but it didn't work out. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On August 24 2016 15:11 the bear jew wrote: I didn't really like the draft because LGD lost to something very similar when TNC ran it and they did a very good job punishing it and disrupting Secret's game plan for the draft. They still nearly lost cause the draft and plan was strong, but Secret executed badly for a lot of the game and LGD played well for most of it. There were glimmers of hope but it didn't work out. You'd expect most of the post-game criticism to be based on execution errors but if you flame the draft you get to indirectly flame Puppey and call him washed up. So we know how that goes. | ||
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Anamorph
236 Posts
On August 24 2016 06:25 hariooo wrote: I'm happy to look at another pro's opinion if it's out there. Only see shitty reddit opinions though. You haven't even offered an opposing position. Bone gave his reasoning. You basically just said "some other pro might hypothetically have a different opinion and bone7 isn't always right". That's meaningless. Well - I see it in a very simple way. Alchi Games in the international non-group stage: wings vs dc - alchi lost (DC) - alch, furion, axe eg vs wings - alchi lost (EG) - mirana, alch tnc vs dc - alchi lost g1 (TNC) - alch, axe, timber tnc vs dc - alchi lost g2 (TNC) - alch, tb, void eg vs newbee- alchi lost (newbee) - alch, ls, sk mvp.p vs og - alch lost (mvp.p) - alch, void, venom lgd vs secret - alchi lost (secret) - alch, tb, bm No alch draft achieved a win at the final stage. What does it mean for me (I know the samplesize here is small, but I dont have the time to proof it for the whole samplesize of the TI-patch) - Alch can only work in a few scenarios - Alch lineups are hard to execute - Alch lineups got a timing window that startswith 37 min to max 50 min. The only wins I remember; DC Group stage, Fnatic Group Stage (That strange pl + alch thing). Wings lost with alch as I remember against navi too. Liquid lost each alch game with a very good alch mid player. I dont want to start a discussion of why alch + tb is super bad and I dont want to question a pro gamer like bone7, cause I am not a professional gamer. But just based on the success of the hero in this patch and going with the stats alch is not a stable hero to go for a bo1, there is no indicator that secret as a team works good with it, and there was no success during the group stage that let a good analyst think about "alch - thats the bo1 pick to go". For me, the teams clearly showed (even in group stage), that alch picks rarely lead to a win and no team is able to perform pretty well with it. He is no first-ban material or even considered in second or third stage as a ban. Secret drafted alch in first stage, I dont understand this. The reason why I dont understand this: Based on stats of the patch, alch works out not very often, so it is a special scenario he needs to get picked. If you have such a hero, then you simple can t firstpick him, because you got no idea how he will function when the upcoming enemy drafts come. So its kind of a blind pick, and an experienced team can simply dominate the draft by abusing the early showing of an alchemist lineup. Alch in general allows you: - Greedy mid picks, because alchi got no real kill potential on any mid. - He is super easy to calculate - you know each timing (15 min radiance+armlet) and he got not a lot to vary (I dont want to start a discussion why non-radiance and non-armlet builds are just a straight forward loss) The itemization is always the same, so he is super easy to draft around if he shows up first-stage! - he needs a lot of space and always transitions to an illusion based strat where he pushes lanes and exploits the early radiance + manta timings to get more gpm to succeed (think about what the role of tb is... ) - to go for greedy mid melee picks, because alchi was showed first phase, he struggles until he gets level 6 to regen up if he gets pressured. (well he got no escape) - he forces supports in some stages to be inefficient (I am not joking about that). He is one of the heroes that needs stacks or should get stacks, this means supports are not pressuring or roaming to gank. He also needs rune control the most, means supports need to control this with the alch which gives timing windows to off or safelanes to react and abuse that part. - alch linesups usually have a big problem against escape heroes. (I am not explaining this) I dont want to make a deeper analysis for - from my perspective, the draft was awful. I call this draft "paper-drafts" because they look good if you don t look behind the composition. In theorie: Tb gets bm aura, venge add dmg, Tb is not a flash farmer, he needs not a lot of items and pressures early towers, the timings of alch and tb allow to have a strong tb to mid, and alch to dominate afterwards when he gets all his timings. But that all is just theory draft - if you look closer its total bullshit if you keep in mind, its a first stage pick alchi and a damn tb, they re not working together in any way. To abuse this draft for an experienced drafter is super easy.. thats my point of view, maybe I am completly wrong, but I go with stats and try to be objective in the way I look at drafts. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
Otherwise, picking him first phase serves a few purposes. If Secret go into that draft knowing they want TB+Alch, they're going to secure their strategy and then use the last 3 picks as reactionary picks. They're not going to risk having the core of the strategy banned and mess up their entire game plan to come up with a new draft. You can disagree with the strategy but don't let that fool you into thinking Secret picked Alch first phase because they didn't understand what the relative strength of the hero. LGD probably lost the draft except for WW. They were 20k ahead and could barely push high ground. And if you think LGD outdrafted Secret based on WW, that would still mean that Secret lost the draft based on not last-banning WW which is completely independent of their first phase Alchemist pick, which again I have to reiterate almost won them the game after being in a 20k hole. If Maybe doesn't get 3 rune enabled kills in a row and completely crush Secret early game and Secret go into the midgame close to even on net worth are you really going to suggest that Secret's draft would let them down? It's really pretty simple and no one can explain it. If Secret was badly outdrafted (according to reddit and LD but not by any actual pro so far hmm wonder why), the team with the better draft should win the game *CLEANLY* with a 20k lead. So I find it much more likely that there are strengths of Secret's draft that most people don't understand that gave them a chance for a comeback than the alternative where LGD outdrafts Secret and outplays Secret but almost loses anyway. That would be complete nonsense. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
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theqat
United States2856 Posts
On August 25 2016 05:21 Racket wrote: So PLD is out as he played today for Kaipi, right? Not necessarily. Subbing in some random tournament for one day is not that uncommon | ||
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Anamorph
236 Posts
On August 25 2016 03:15 hariooo wrote: Okay you don't really seem to understand how stats work so I'm not going to get baited into trying to argue against someone who came to (in their mind) a statistical conclusion based on 7 games. Just not how that works. Otherwise, picking him first phase serves a few purposes. If Secret go into that draft knowing they want TB+Alch, they're going to secure their strategy and then use the last 3 picks as reactionary picks. They're not going to risk having the core of the strategy banned and mess up their entire game plan to come up with a new draft. You can disagree with the strategy but don't let that fool you into thinking Secret picked Alch first phase because they didn't understand what the relative strength of the hero. LGD probably lost the draft except for WW. They were 20k ahead and could barely push high ground. And if you think LGD outdrafted Secret based on WW, that would still mean that Secret lost the draft based on not last-banning WW which is completely independent of their first phase Alchemist pick, which again I have to reiterate almost won them the game after being in a 20k hole. If Maybe doesn't get 3 rune enabled kills in a row and completely crush Secret early game and Secret go into the midgame close to even on net worth are you really going to suggest that Secret's draft would let them down? It's really pretty simple and no one can explain it. If Secret was badly outdrafted (according to reddit and LD but not by any actual pro so far hmm wonder why), the team with the better draft should win the game *CLEANLY* with a 20k lead. So I find it much more likely that there are strengths of Secret's draft that most people don't understand that gave them a chance for a comeback than the alternative where LGD outdrafts Secret and outplays Secret but almost loses anyway. That would be complete nonsense. I am sorry that I wont answer your posting. I clearly made a statement about different perspectives of pro gamers and that a bone7 trademark does not exist. It was just kind of "sarkastic" too, because bone7 and his drafts on kaipi/ his way to think about dota, is nothing I would call approved-to-be-good. For me he always was an exot in the way he itemized and the heropool he thought is meta-relevant. I realized you liked the input from a progamer and you share the opinion about that draft. I just wasted a lot of time in explaining my perspective, because I got triggered by the "thats not an argument"-stuff, to read a posting afterwards with stuff like: "Okay you don't really seem to understand how stats work". Btw I clearly mentioned In my posting, that the samplesize is small, and I dont have the time to proof it for the whole TI-patch. I studied math and computer science and I really love your statement about me "not knowing" how statistics work : ) For that reason I wont answer you - I think we should just stop our discussion. Thanks for your time. | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
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Anamorph
236 Posts
On August 25 2016 05:36 LemOn wrote: People still talk to Harioo? :D I am new, I think I need to learn about the rules here : P | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On August 25 2016 05:32 Anamorph wrote: I am sorry that I wont answer your posting. I clearly made a statement about different perspectives of pro gamers and that a bone7 trademark does not exist. It was just kind of "sarkastic" too, because bone7 and his drafts on kaipi/ his way to think about dota, is nothing I would call approved-to-be-good. For me he always was an exot in the way he itemized and the heropool he thought is meta-relevant. I realized you liked the input from a progamer and you share the opinion about that draft. I just wasted a lot of time in explaining my perspective, because I got triggered by the "thats not an argument"-stuff, to read a posting afterwards with stuff like: "Okay you don't really seem to understand how stats work". Btw I clearly mentioned In my posting, that the samplesize is small, and I dont have the time to proof it for the whole TI-patch. I studied math and computer science and I really love your statement about me "not knowing" how statistics work : ) For that reason I wont answer you - I think we should just stop our discussion. Thanks for your time. You made a post about pros having different perspectives but you haven't provided an alternative pro perspective. Suggesting there's a hypothetical counterargument by a pro out there isn't an actual point. It's like me saying there are plenty of people with stats majors who would disagree with you. I'd prove it but I don't have the time. /s And if your criticism of bone7 is that you don't think he's a good player/drafter therefore his opinion isn't relevant, then why should anyone listen to you? You'd probably answer because you made specific points supporting your perspective but you didn't respond to any of bone7's actual points he made in the interview. It's just double standards and hypocrisy from you. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
Firstly, it was the very last pick of the 1st phase. Secret had banned Timber and ET (Timber especially one of the best cores to burst Alch), LGD had banned Wisp+Drow (Drow allows for very fast paced pushing which may come too early for Alch to handle). Secret started with SD (giving them something to abuse the radiance illusions and a hero to save their carry from burst), LGD answered with Mirana+Kunkka. I wouldn't consider either of these heroes super good against Alch, especially given that SD should be able to save the Alch from the 1 time burst these heroes offer in fights. Neither of them is super strong against Alch in lane either imo, unless you somehow eat 3 torrents consecutively when the Kunkka is sitting in vision (not sure if it was 2 or 3 but anyway point stands). And because it was the last pick of the 1st phase, Secret can in the 2nd ban phase ban AA. Talking about Alch in general or his viability as a 1st phase pick is quite pointless when it's that specific game that matters. I don't really want to get into the rest of the draft anymore, but my point is simply that imo the game quite clearly was winnable, and most of what happened early in the game had very little to do with the draft but individual players on the team and Secret as a whole just getting completely outplayed for the first 10 minutes. Had the game been a bit more even, LGD would have been in trouble. | ||
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Anamorph
236 Posts
On August 25 2016 05:58 hariooo wrote: You made a post about pros having different perspectives but you haven't provided an alternative pro perspective. Suggesting there's a hypothetical counterargument by a pro out there isn't an actual point. It's like me saying there are plenty of people with stats majors who would disagree with you. I'd prove it but I don't have the time. /s And if your criticism of bone7 is that you don't think he's a good player/drafter therefore his opinion isn't relevant, then why should anyone listen to you? You'd probably answer because you made specific points supporting your perspective but you didn't respond to any of bone7's actual points he made in the interview. It's just double standards and hypocrisy from you. I have noticed your posting. I stick with my above post to not discuss with people starting to attack others in posts - even when its a subliminal way. | ||
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