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On June 03 2016 21:37 bluzi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 21:27 LemOn wrote:On June 03 2016 19:48 zolasell wrote:
This is the first time that RTZ joins a good team and it becomes bad.back with EG and TS the teams were still tier1 and really succesfull.Maybe this makes him realize that he is not really the god he thinks he is He is a god, he just doesn't seem to fit the team right now because of strategy - you pick a guy that's awesome on a limited amount of greedy farming mids, still arguably best in the world, and give him Kunka and Puck twice...And he just looks very average on those, especially his puck is miles away from Dendi's for example. He was good on DP, had a good performance on Invoker too even thought the team got steam rolled by Na'Vi. RTZ is limited in his hero pool and playstyle, but Puppey sure as hell knew that so imo it's his job to try to make it work Can you please list the heroes he plays mid that he is "best in the world" , curious to know.
His Invoker, DP, SF, Razor are awesome. His Naga is also insane, no question about that. And we haven't really seen his alch much? I know a lot of these aren't current meta heroes, and the way Puppey drafts don't really fit, but trying to make stuff like Puck Happen for RTZ is just futile
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they finally looked ok in the wings series. still not good, but ok. series vs navi was absolutely atrocious, no cohesion at all
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Wasnt ee drafting ? I need to check that out
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On June 03 2016 22:14 Faruko wrote:
Wasnt ee drafting ? I need to check that out
Pretty sure EE drafted against NaVi but then they changed back to Puppey for Wings series. So not showing great confidence there either I suppose.
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On June 03 2016 21:45 LemOn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 21:37 bluzi wrote:On June 03 2016 21:27 LemOn wrote:On June 03 2016 19:48 zolasell wrote:
This is the first time that RTZ joins a good team and it becomes bad.back with EG and TS the teams were still tier1 and really succesfull.Maybe this makes him realize that he is not really the god he thinks he is He is a god, he just doesn't seem to fit the team right now because of strategy - you pick a guy that's awesome on a limited amount of greedy farming mids, still arguably best in the world, and give him Kunka and Puck twice...And he just looks very average on those, especially his puck is miles away from Dendi's for example. He was good on DP, had a good performance on Invoker too even thought the team got steam rolled by Na'Vi. RTZ is limited in his hero pool and playstyle, but Puppey sure as hell knew that so imo it's his job to try to make it work Can you please list the heroes he plays mid that he is "best in the world" , curious to know. His Invoker, DP, SF, Razor are awesome. His Naga is also insane, no question about that. And we haven't really seen his alch much? I know a lot of these aren't current meta heroes, and the way Puppey drafts don't really fit, but trying to make stuff like Puck Happen for RTZ is just futile
Out of those heroes i can state at least 5 players that play them better ( maybe just his SF is good enough, but this patch is not good for it) Let me give you a small example - Miracle Invoker, Fata Razor, Dendi DP are just an obvious ones that are way better on their heroes than RTZ (and that is just from EU region). Not to mention that couple of months back his Invoker level was way too weak for pro dota. All those aside, the main reason with the guy is that most teams seem to struggle while he is in the roster, don't know whats the issues, but there is deffinateley one.
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It's a pretty silly comparison because Arteezy hasn't actually played a bunch of his signature heroes in recent times. Like there used to be times when he played heroes like SF, Razor, Tinker, Naga, Lycan, TA, OD, and no question he was the best or at least one of the best on those heroes at the time. But he hasn't played most of them recently in competitive, so we can't really evaluate his level. Of course it's true though that these Puck picks don't really go with his usual style. And I'm not really sure why they play like this. Atm they are jungling Puppey quite a bit, not sure if it is really suitable for this composition of players, unless the hero somehow fits really well as one of the last picks.
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On June 03 2016 22:29 NInoff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 21:45 LemOn wrote:On June 03 2016 21:37 bluzi wrote:On June 03 2016 21:27 LemOn wrote:On June 03 2016 19:48 zolasell wrote:
This is the first time that RTZ joins a good team and it becomes bad.back with EG and TS the teams were still tier1 and really succesfull.Maybe this makes him realize that he is not really the god he thinks he is He is a god, he just doesn't seem to fit the team right now because of strategy - you pick a guy that's awesome on a limited amount of greedy farming mids, still arguably best in the world, and give him Kunka and Puck twice...And he just looks very average on those, especially his puck is miles away from Dendi's for example. He was good on DP, had a good performance on Invoker too even thought the team got steam rolled by Na'Vi. RTZ is limited in his hero pool and playstyle, but Puppey sure as hell knew that so imo it's his job to try to make it work Can you please list the heroes he plays mid that he is "best in the world" , curious to know. His Invoker, DP, SF, Razor are awesome. His Naga is also insane, no question about that. And we haven't really seen his alch much? I know a lot of these aren't current meta heroes, and the way Puppey drafts don't really fit, but trying to make stuff like Puck Happen for RTZ is just futile Out of those heroes i can state at least 5 players that play them better ( maybe just his SF is good enough, but this patch is not good for it) Let me give you a small example - Miracle Invoker, Fata Razor, Dendi DP are just an obvious ones that are way better on their heroes than RTZ (and that is just from EU region). Not to mention that couple of months back his Invoker level was way too weak for pro dota. All those aside, the main reason with the guy is that most teams seem to struggle while he is in the roster, don't know whats the issues, but there is deffinateley one.
I do agree that RTZ is not that good of a mid anymore.he was a god in 2013-14 but now the scene has evolved and he is not good enough.i still think that he is one of the best carrys in the west.I still think that if Secret needed to change their roster that bad they should swap EE not w33
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I don't think he has lost much really in terms of his laning, in most games he does extremely well there like he used to. But a lot of the time he isn't really playing a similar style he used to be known for, a bunch of those heroes aren't really popular atm.
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On June 03 2016 22:14 Faruko wrote:
Wasnt ee drafting ? I need to check that out
They all drafted together, EE mouse in hand and everyone else around him. RTZ with his rap looks.
Puppey was still pink player.
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I'd say Arteezy's best trait (as seen especially on his SF) was to continually snag creeps in the jungle in between waves or after ganks.
In this jungle 4th position meta, there are no stacks, maybe not even creepcamps.
He was really good at snowballing and using it to create space for his team, or just demolish the opposing one.
Now.. he gets less farm, less stacks, less supports and is expected to create more space ... just doesn't make sense
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If the usual BO1 format comes out, it's...
Secret vs Empire
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On June 03 2016 21:40 oahippo wrote:
One thing that has confused me for awhile, I can't remember when, but Envy said in the interview once that having too many 8k players is a hindrance. I feel like the amount of pride is holding back their coordination, everyone hesitating to listen to their peers.
That's some envy logic right there, the same logic that lead them to pick up w33 instead of miracle, then kick w33 for rtz.
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On June 04 2016 00:09 emperorchampion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 21:40 oahippo wrote:
One thing that has confused me for awhile, I can't remember when, but Envy said in the interview once that having too many 8k players is a hindrance. I feel like the amount of pride is holding back their coordination, everyone hesitating to listen to their peers. That's some envy logic right there, the same logic that lead them to pick up w33 instead of miracle, then kick w33 for rtz.
I think they triyed to get miralce but he didnt want to.Not sure on this one though.
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On June 03 2016 23:42 Gaial wrote:
If the usual BO1 format comes out, it's...
Secret vs Empire
I dont think secret will play empire
probably the #3 of groop d
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Pretty sure the story was something like they asked first Miracle but he was unsure (probably had the OG offer), then they went to w33 and he jumped at the opportunity. And frankly at that point not sure if people had any proper way of comparing w33 and Miracle as players or as teammates.
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one of the first rtz fame moments was when he played puck. his puck is perfectly fine. puppey getting roar stolen is not fine. the teamplay is pretty crap if they flame out they should really disband.
i only watched 1.5 games vs wings but unless they somehow all get better in the next day i dont see them going anywhere.
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On June 03 2016 22:41 zolasell wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 22:29 NInoff wrote:On June 03 2016 21:45 LemOn wrote:On June 03 2016 21:37 bluzi wrote:On June 03 2016 21:27 LemOn wrote:On June 03 2016 19:48 zolasell wrote:
This is the first time that RTZ joins a good team and it becomes bad.back with EG and TS the teams were still tier1 and really succesfull.Maybe this makes him realize that he is not really the god he thinks he is He is a god, he just doesn't seem to fit the team right now because of strategy - you pick a guy that's awesome on a limited amount of greedy farming mids, still arguably best in the world, and give him Kunka and Puck twice...And he just looks very average on those, especially his puck is miles away from Dendi's for example. He was good on DP, had a good performance on Invoker too even thought the team got steam rolled by Na'Vi. RTZ is limited in his hero pool and playstyle, but Puppey sure as hell knew that so imo it's his job to try to make it work Can you please list the heroes he plays mid that he is "best in the world" , curious to know. His Invoker, DP, SF, Razor are awesome. His Naga is also insane, no question about that. And we haven't really seen his alch much? I know a lot of these aren't current meta heroes, and the way Puppey drafts don't really fit, but trying to make stuff like Puck Happen for RTZ is just futile Out of those heroes i can state at least 5 players that play them better ( maybe just his SF is good enough, but this patch is not good for it) Let me give you a small example - Miracle Invoker, Fata Razor, Dendi DP are just an obvious ones that are way better on their heroes than RTZ (and that is just from EU region). Not to mention that couple of months back his Invoker level was way too weak for pro dota. All those aside, the main reason with the guy is that most teams seem to struggle while he is in the roster, don't know whats the issues, but there is deffinateley one. I do agree that RTZ is not that good of a mid anymore.he was a god in 2013-14 but now the scene has evolved and he is not good enough.i still think that he is one of the best carrys in the west.I still think that if Secret needed to change their roster that bad they should swap EE not w33
RTZ on carry, W33 mid would be way better
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On June 04 2016 00:23 zolasell wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2016 00:09 emperorchampion wrote:On June 03 2016 21:40 oahippo wrote:
One thing that has confused me for awhile, I can't remember when, but Envy said in the interview once that having too many 8k players is a hindrance. I feel like the amount of pride is holding back their coordination, everyone hesitating to listen to their peers. That's some envy logic right there, the same logic that lead them to pick up w33 instead of miracle, then kick w33 for rtz. I think they triyed to get miralce but he didnt want to.Not sure on this one though.
From what I remember they asked w33 and miracle, miracle was deciding between other options though, and envy wanted someone who "believed" in the team and would accept right away. I mean, the way things turned out for Secret I think that w33 was the right choice, just don't understand the kicking part, but I guess we don't have the full story. Maybe things were bound to go down hill in any case and Shanghai was a total fluke.
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At first, I don't really know what's wrong with Secret, but now, I realized that it's definitely the 'playstyle not viable in meta' situation. You can't put someone in a position and hope that person will be able to master the heroes that are powerful in current meta, it is reversed. The person need to actually master the heroes first, then he is available for the position.
This is not some low tier tournament and team.
Mid heroes in current meta don't exist in rtz's good hero pools. For world level mid, his invoker/DP/Puck etc is only mediocre at best. The best thing for him is to stay at EG as carry, since it is easier for him with heroes that pretty much always farms. But everything is too late. As we can see, they have their last chance in lower bracket.
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i'd really have to personally interview players and teams playing against a team like secret in order to understand the weaknesses they see.
it's a major thing when you plan to walk heroes mid, get there, and it works just like you thought it would. i think arteezy wants to farm and play mid and not have to abandon lane every few waves. only a few mid heroes consistently play it that way, yet it is a necessity in the games they've been playing lately.
they picked a clinkz against wisp. fine and normal, but then they jungle beast, as they've practically jungled doom, or ench before except beast does nothing except pull a higher level boar out and right click a lane hero with it. paired with that is a pie lion, very greedy by nature, much slower on progression if not successful early. everyone learns and plays this support by now. i'm not sure what else they've practiced, but they did bread and butter in the group stages and it was not world-class.
a real red flag to me when EE basically says yeah, i'll play clinkz. chain feeds trying to make up for early mistakes and play to the hero, leaves their team with no options because clinkz and beastmaster are the only heroes on their team that can do anything on the map, in that game. that is a real model game of how their draft is just weaker and more poorly played out than what is really required.
forget going outside of standard deviation and making art if you can't even play standard right now.
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EPT
