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On June 04 2016 01:41 emperorchampion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2016 00:23 zolasell wrote:On June 04 2016 00:09 emperorchampion wrote:On June 03 2016 21:40 oahippo wrote:
One thing that has confused me for awhile, I can't remember when, but Envy said in the interview once that having too many 8k players is a hindrance. I feel like the amount of pride is holding back their coordination, everyone hesitating to listen to their peers. That's some envy logic right there, the same logic that lead them to pick up w33 instead of miracle, then kick w33 for rtz. I think they triyed to get miralce but he didnt want to.Not sure on this one though. From what I remember they asked w33 and miracle, miracle was deciding between other options though, and envy wanted someone who "believed" in the team and would accept right away.
No, that was only in hindsight (read: didn't want to say that his team mate was the second choice)
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They still have chance ! Fanboys unite and give them strength !
Funny how everyone shits on Secret at the moment and Reddit is full of wise people who know better, yet literally no threads about Complexity doing even worse.
Overall, it feels like Secret is trying to play a style that does not work in this meta. They try to spread the map and farm efficiently on couple of heroes and not 4-5 man early on. Like farming 3 lanes and having only supports roam ganks with Sunstrike support, but it has not worked like it worked in Shanghai.
Both Navi and Wings focus much more on having numbers advantage on every engagement and taking engagements one after another. Maybe Secret guys try to avoid team fighting if they somehow feel they are not on the same page when it comes to execution in team fights.
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In some games I agree, but in some games in previous events and here has just been what sort of engagement they take and how they take them. In a bunch of games they've tried rotating with cores both before and in this event, their decisions in terms of when to do it and where to go just don't seem to work.
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I had a feeling ever since they swapped W33 and misery for RTZ and Univers, Both EE and RTZ are space-eaters, and neither is good at creating space. But now it's confirmed.
Unless they find a way to play with each others, EE and RTZ can't play in the same team despite the fact they are good friend.
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On June 04 2016 05:14 VvvV1251 wrote:
I had a feeling ever since they swapped W33 and misery for RTZ and Univers, Both EE and RTZ are space-eaters, and neither is good at creating space. But now it's confirmed.
Unless they find a way to play with each others, EE and RTZ can't play in the same team despite the fact they are good friend.
did you actually watch the games they lost? because if you did youd realize the whole RTZ EE are both space takers and thats why they lose is 100% false.
i dont know why ppl just jump on bandwagons when they dont even understand dota. like the guy above who saids rtz cant play puck lmaoooo.
awful draft and teamplay is why they are losing.
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On June 04 2016 05:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2016 05:14 VvvV1251 wrote:
I had a feeling ever since they swapped W33 and misery for RTZ and Univers, Both EE and RTZ are space-eaters, and neither is good at creating space. But now it's confirmed.
Unless they find a way to play with each others, EE and RTZ can't play in the same team despite the fact they are good friend. did you actually watch the games they lost? because if you did youd realize the whole RTZ EE are both space takers and thats why they lose is 100% false. i dont know why ppl just jump on bandwagons when they dont even understand dota. like the guy above who saids rtz cant play puck lmaoooo. awful draft and teamplay is why they are losing.
having a greedy #1 and #2 is not the problem, but a greedy #4 on top of that is real issue.
Universe is left with no support so he cannot carry the tempo for the team. And PLD can do nothing but warding and face-tanking the ganks.
Puck is definitely not an RTZ hero right now.
People keep saying RTZ was a good puck player before he transition in to the carry-type farming mid, but face it, it was almost 3 years ago.
Dota develops fast, and 3 years can change everything. Just like 3 years ago, Rotk was still a top tier offlaner,
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I may or may not have messed up the formatting for this post and I don't really know how to delete it. Pls ignore.
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On June 04 2016 03:27 Darksteel wrote:
They still have chance ! Fanboys unite and give them strength !
Funny how everyone shits on Secret at the moment and Reddit is full of wise people who know better, yet literally no threads about Complexity doing even worse.
So this is the new standard for secret, doing better than an overhyped team that is only a championship contender in the minds of Swindle and Nahaz?
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[QUOTE]On June 04 2016 03:27 Darksteel wrote:
Funny how everyone shits on Secret at the moment and Reddit is full of wise people who know better, yet literally no threads about Complexity doing even worse.
Well, in fairness, you have to imagine the expectations for Secret were far greater than those for Complexity.
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On June 04 2016 06:51 Xurr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2016 03:27 Darksteel wrote:
They still have chance ! Fanboys unite and give them strength !
Funny how everyone shits on Secret at the moment and Reddit is full of wise people who know better, yet literally no threads about Complexity doing even worse. So this is the new standard for secret, doing better than an overhyped team that is only a championship contender in the minds of Swindle and Nahaz?
I think the biggest difference is that CompLexity has likable, personable players while Secret has Arteezy. There's a sheer drop off.
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On June 04 2016 06:29 CxWiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2016 05:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:On June 04 2016 05:14 VvvV1251 wrote:
I had a feeling ever since they swapped W33 and misery for RTZ and Univers, Both EE and RTZ are space-eaters, and neither is good at creating space. But now it's confirmed.
Unless they find a way to play with each others, EE and RTZ can't play in the same team despite the fact they are good friend. did you actually watch the games they lost? because if you did youd realize the whole RTZ EE are both space takers and thats why they lose is 100% false. i dont know why ppl just jump on bandwagons when they dont even understand dota. like the guy above who saids rtz cant play puck lmaoooo. awful draft and teamplay is why they are losing. having a greedy #1 and #2 is not the problem, but a greedy #4 on top of that is real issue. Universe is left with no support so he cannot carry the tempo for the team. And PLD can do nothing but warding and face-tanking the ganks. Puck is definitely not an RTZ hero right now. People keep saying RTZ was a good puck player before he transition in to the carry-type farming mid, but face it, it was almost 3 years ago. Dota develops fast, and 3 years can change everything. Just like 3 years ago, Rotk was still a top tier offlaner,
i watched that puck game for 15mins before leaving for work. rtz played puck just fine, the bm though roar stolen 24/7.
but you thought rotk was a top tier offlaner 3 years ago so who knows.
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On June 04 2016 06:55 M.S.Bismarck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2016 06:51 Xurr wrote:On June 04 2016 03:27 Darksteel wrote:
They still have chance ! Fanboys unite and give them strength !
Funny how everyone shits on Secret at the moment and Reddit is full of wise people who know better, yet literally no threads about Complexity doing even worse. So this is the new standard for secret, doing better than an overhyped team that is only a championship contender in the minds of Swindle and Nahaz? I think the biggest difference is that CompLexity has likable, personable players while Secret has Arteezy. There's a sheer drop off.
?
swindlezz is probably the farthest thing away from likable & personable lol
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On June 04 2016 07:22 HighTimeDotA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2016 06:29 CxWiLL wrote:On June 04 2016 05:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:On June 04 2016 05:14 VvvV1251 wrote:
I had a feeling ever since they swapped W33 and misery for RTZ and Univers, Both EE and RTZ are space-eaters, and neither is good at creating space. But now it's confirmed.
Unless they find a way to play with each others, EE and RTZ can't play in the same team despite the fact they are good friend. did you actually watch the games they lost? because if you did youd realize the whole RTZ EE are both space takers and thats why they lose is 100% false. i dont know why ppl just jump on bandwagons when they dont even understand dota. like the guy above who saids rtz cant play puck lmaoooo. awful draft and teamplay is why they are losing. having a greedy #1 and #2 is not the problem, but a greedy #4 on top of that is real issue. Universe is left with no support so he cannot carry the tempo for the team. And PLD can do nothing but warding and face-tanking the ganks. Puck is definitely not an RTZ hero right now. People keep saying RTZ was a good puck player before he transition in to the carry-type farming mid, but face it, it was almost 3 years ago. Dota develops fast, and 3 years can change everything. Just like 3 years ago, Rotk was still a top tier offlaner, i watched that puck game for 15mins before leaving for work. rtz played puck just fine, the bm though roar stolen 24/7. but you thought rotk was a top tier offlaner 3 years ago so who knows.
A puck dies to sprout+shackle combo for multiple times is nothing close to 'just fine'.
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Honestly and sadly i expected those results, and i'm not very confident in their LB run. When i see Puppey give the Captain slot to another player i feel the team is having problems (Those draft tho)
I hope they get back and will support them even if they crash and burn, but i honestly don't understand why the fuck they didn't play more officials. No invites to qualifiers? or they declined them? Changing two players and only playing 9 officials series is awful. If they at least were showing improvement with just playing Scrims that would be fine, but this level of play is a disaster.
If they crash and burn in Manila, i hope they don't get any invites. Time to grind and rethink their teamwork/draft. If they don't want to play more games and just want to scrim, then show that you are improving. but they have showed that isn't enough.
At least i hope Liquid wins this Major.
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internal communication and babyrages are two main issues of this team right now i feel. Puppey already had his hands quite full when ee 1st joined secret, now they have 2 and they are probably causing a LOT of headaches im the team.
Honestly Id like to see arteezy get kicked out of secret, ee had already proven himself during shanghai and i dont like the idea of one guy fucking up what puppey had built on for 2 years.
Really, somewhere out there we can hear w33haa singing songs of joy.
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On June 04 2016 14:18 neozxa wrote:
internal communication and babyrages are two main issues of this team right now i feel. Puppey already had his hands quite full when ee 1st joined secret, now they have 2 and they are probably causing a LOT of headaches im the team.
Honestly Id like to see arteezy get kicked out of secret, ee had already proven himself during shanghai and i dont like the idea of one guy fucking up what puppey had built on for 2 years.
Really, somewhere out there we can hear w33haa singing songs of joy.
I think that if they kicked one of those players it should be EE.RTZ is a better carry than EE imo.
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On June 04 2016 11:36 Vankuga wrote:
Honestly and sadly i expected those results, and i'm not very confident in their LB run. When i see Puppey give the Captain slot to another player i feel the team is having problems (Those draft tho)
I hope they get back and will support them even if they crash and burn, but i honestly don't understand why the fuck they didn't play more officials. No invites to qualifiers? or they declined them? Changing two players and only playing 9 officials series is awful. If they at least were showing improvement with just playing Scrims that would be fine, but this level of play is a disaster.
If they crash and burn in Manila, i hope they don't get any invites. Time to grind and rethink their teamwork/draft. If they don't want to play more games and just want to scrim, then show that you are improving. but they have showed that isn't enough.
At least i hope Liquid wins this Major.
I take you are not following the scene. Secret gets no invites to qualifiers but to the tournament itself, they don't need to play quals since like early 2015. And sometimes they even reject those direct invites.
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Feels to me like a bunch of other teams are playing the way I thought before the event Secret should play. Have Arteezy play farmers who also push towers, most of his signature heroes are like that. EE also can play some sort of a core that farms but also pushes pretty quick (Jugg, Lycan, Clinkz or whatever) so they get early t1 towers down and make the game far easier to play. Universe plays a teamfighter, one support plays a defensive support to cover Arteezy's hero and the other has some sort of teamfight control. Instead often times they have Puppey farming and Arteezy on some heroes that don't really take towers, don't really super dominate lanes, and are supposed to find fights.
The only game they won they had Arteezy on DP (a hero who is strong on lane and takes early towers) and two supports who don't spend time in the jungle farming. Bring back PLD Venge/BH, Puppey Dazzle, help Arteezy get into an early lead with his DK/DP/Razor/Lycan or even some SF/TA if it fits, get early towers.
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I dont know if, people who think rtz+ee is the problem did actually watch those games.
They both are very good in finding farm, they have been almost always at the top of the networth chart, so the lack of space/farm required, is not the problem.
the problem comes after the laining stage, for basically, 2 main reasons:
1) The drafts are uninspired/weird, and they usually have very low winning conditions, it doesn't matter how much their cores are actually farmed, or how well they did during the laining stage. Sometimes it feels like, it doesn't matter how long they will continue to farm, there wont be a time during the game where they will be actually stronger.
2) They have bad teamfights execution, like they are not synchronized; i dont know if there's some internal conflict, but surely it isn't normal to be that uncoordinated after 2 months of supposed preparation.
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On June 04 2016 10:13 CxWiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2016 07:22 HighTimeDotA wrote:On June 04 2016 06:29 CxWiLL wrote:On June 04 2016 05:19 HighTimeDotA wrote:On June 04 2016 05:14 VvvV1251 wrote:
I had a feeling ever since they swapped W33 and misery for RTZ and Univers, Both EE and RTZ are space-eaters, and neither is good at creating space. But now it's confirmed.
Unless they find a way to play with each others, EE and RTZ can't play in the same team despite the fact they are good friend. did you actually watch the games they lost? because if you did youd realize the whole RTZ EE are both space takers and thats why they lose is 100% false. i dont know why ppl just jump on bandwagons when they dont even understand dota. like the guy above who saids rtz cant play puck lmaoooo. awful draft and teamplay is why they are losing. having a greedy #1 and #2 is not the problem, but a greedy #4 on top of that is real issue. Universe is left with no support so he cannot carry the tempo for the team. And PLD can do nothing but warding and face-tanking the ganks. Puck is definitely not an RTZ hero right now. People keep saying RTZ was a good puck player before he transition in to the carry-type farming mid, but face it, it was almost 3 years ago. Dota develops fast, and 3 years can change everything. Just like 3 years ago, Rotk was still a top tier offlaner, i watched that puck game for 15mins before leaving for work. rtz played puck just fine, the bm though roar stolen 24/7. but you thought rotk was a top tier offlaner 3 years ago so who knows. A puck dies to sprout+shackle combo for multiple times is nothing close to 'just fine'.
this, so many spots he could have handled better. He might be a good player, but you ought to compare his puck to Fata and Dendi's, and to the impact RTZ himself has on farming mids, and there's an undeniable drop off
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EPT
