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On April 27 2016 07:50 RubickPicker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 18:04 trollcenter wrote:
I highly doubt they're at risk of not receiving an invite to the next Major, the champions or finalists of the last Valve event have always received them, regardless of how bad they played inbetween (think of Na'Vi at TI4, who was in awful shape). The only thing that MAY be a question mark here is them replacing 2 players in their roster, but they're players who already did well at majors so even that is unlikely to be enough of a reason to make them qualify, imo.. Oh, I know as the Shanghai winners they're automatically going to Manila. Going into Shanghai however, their ability to secure future invites to anything was in doubt, but placing first gave them a new round of direct invites. They scored a first place title exactly when they needed to, in other words. But if they don't look like they can do that again in the months between Shanghai and Manila (and so far this has been the case), it would feel like they'd need to take first or at least top two in Manila again to keep it going.
if na'vi can get invite based on popularity,why cant secret.rofl
And as for ti6
im 99% sure past major winners will get auto invite unless they disband
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1. They are the defending major champions
2. They have a history of doing well in Valve events.
If we based it purely on meritocracy, Secret would not get invited. But it is logical and sensible to invite them because of their reputation/potential.
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On April 28 2016 15:02 KingThorDan.Extreme wrote:
And as for ti6
im 99% sure past major winners will get auto invite unless they disband
Not relating to Secret at all, but man I would hope this isn't the case. We already have one team that is invited no matter what in last year's champion; who doesn't always impress (see also: Newbee.)
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On April 28 2016 15:40 DucK- wrote:
1. They are the defending major champions
2. They have a history of doing well in Valve events.
If we based it purely on meritocracy, Secret would not get invited. But it is logical and sensible to invite them because of their reputation/potential.
I can't agree. I assume the merit should be judged including at least the last major, otherwise major performance would be irrelevant in determining merit, which would be odd given that they're obviously the most important tournaments. And they are the winners of that major. Sure, there has been a roster change, but the guys who got added were 3rd at that Major. So I find it hard to say they aren't a top 12 team based on merit.
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On April 28 2016 20:49 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2016 15:40 DucK- wrote:
1. They are the defending major champions
2. They have a history of doing well in Valve events.
If we based it purely on meritocracy, Secret would not get invited. But it is logical and sensible to invite them because of their reputation/potential. I can't agree. I assume the merit should be judged including at least the last major, otherwise major performance would be irrelevant in determining merit, which would be odd given that they're obviously the most important tournaments. And they are the winners of that major. Sure, there has been a roster change, but the guys who got added were 3rd at that Major. So I find it hard to say they aren't a top 12 team based on merit.
I feel if you have a roster change, you're starting from ground zero. We have no clue how well this team would mesh together. All we are basing on is reputation, and that's not meritocracy.
I do agree that merit should be judge from the last major, and that's why Liquid is the most deserving of the invites.
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Eh, fair enough. I think a team's merit can be derived in large part from individual merit.
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Valve doesn't measure teams by the individual skill of their players tho. The reason why roster changes are outlawed is to protect smaller name players. One could argue that Valve's policy before the roster lock system was precisely to prevent a situation like the one we got now with Secret
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But it's not about individual skill, which, I mean, how does one measure that? It's about individual placement. Every individual on Secret has placed 1st or 3rd at Shanghai, which is pretty huge. Couple that with the fact that Secret are the reigning champions, albeit only 3/5 of the roster remains, and I find it hard to see how they're not one of the top 12 most meriting teams.
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On April 28 2016 21:02 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2016 20:49 FuzzyJAM wrote:On April 28 2016 15:40 DucK- wrote:
1. They are the defending major champions
2. They have a history of doing well in Valve events.
If we based it purely on meritocracy, Secret would not get invited. But it is logical and sensible to invite them because of their reputation/potential. I can't agree. I assume the merit should be judged including at least the last major, otherwise major performance would be irrelevant in determining merit, which would be odd given that they're obviously the most important tournaments. And they are the winners of that major. Sure, there has been a roster change, but the guys who got added were 3rd at that Major. So I find it hard to say they aren't a top 12 team based on merit. I feel if you have a roster change, you're starting from ground zero. We have no clue how well this team would mesh together. All we are basing on is reputation, and that's not meritocracy. I do agree that merit should be judge from the last major, and that's why Liquid is the most deserving of the invites.
they change during roster lock period so i see no problem (valve adopted this system esp for this).why start from ground zero lol
invites are given on the org
Team secret won the major not puppey ,not EE. . newbee changed their lineup after ti4 yet they recieve their direct invite
fro ti im sure unless they disband they will be invited for sure
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On April 29 2016 13:28 KingThorDan.Extreme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2016 21:02 DucK- wrote:On April 28 2016 20:49 FuzzyJAM wrote:On April 28 2016 15:40 DucK- wrote:
1. They are the defending major champions
2. They have a history of doing well in Valve events.
If we based it purely on meritocracy, Secret would not get invited. But it is logical and sensible to invite them because of their reputation/potential. I can't agree. I assume the merit should be judged including at least the last major, otherwise major performance would be irrelevant in determining merit, which would be odd given that they're obviously the most important tournaments. And they are the winners of that major. Sure, there has been a roster change, but the guys who got added were 3rd at that Major. So I find it hard to say they aren't a top 12 team based on merit. I feel if you have a roster change, you're starting from ground zero. We have no clue how well this team would mesh together. All we are basing on is reputation, and that's not meritocracy. I do agree that merit should be judge from the last major, and that's why Liquid is the most deserving of the invites. they change during roster lock period so i see no problem (valve adopted this system esp for this).why start from ground zero lol invites are given on the org Team secret won the major not puppey ,not EE. . newbee changed their lineup after ti4 yet they recieve their direct invite fro ti im sure unless they disband they will be invited for sure
So, you say that if Secret changed Puppey and EE instead of w33 and Misery, they would get this invite too?
Do you really want us to believe you believe that? Get real dude.
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yes they would still 100% get the invite...get real dude
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On April 29 2016 15:09 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 13:28 KingThorDan.Extreme wrote:On April 28 2016 21:02 DucK- wrote:On April 28 2016 20:49 FuzzyJAM wrote:On April 28 2016 15:40 DucK- wrote:
1. They are the defending major champions
2. They have a history of doing well in Valve events.
If we based it purely on meritocracy, Secret would not get invited. But it is logical and sensible to invite them because of their reputation/potential. I can't agree. I assume the merit should be judged including at least the last major, otherwise major performance would be irrelevant in determining merit, which would be odd given that they're obviously the most important tournaments. And they are the winners of that major. Sure, there has been a roster change, but the guys who got added were 3rd at that Major. So I find it hard to say they aren't a top 12 team based on merit. I feel if you have a roster change, you're starting from ground zero. We have no clue how well this team would mesh together. All we are basing on is reputation, and that's not meritocracy. I do agree that merit should be judge from the last major, and that's why Liquid is the most deserving of the invites. they change during roster lock period so i see no problem (valve adopted this system esp for this).why start from ground zero lol invites are given on the org Team secret won the major not puppey ,not EE. . newbee changed their lineup after ti4 yet they recieve their direct invite fro ti im sure unless they disband they will be invited for sure So, you say that if Secret changed Puppey and EE instead of w33 and Misery, they would get this invite too? Do you really want us to believe you believe that? Get real dude.
ok lets assume(although your logic is super stupid as puppey is the one of the founding member of TS) that they changed puppey and EE still they would get the invite.3 member + changed during roster shuffle period . i see no problem there.
heck even empire got invited at esl after the roster change .
you're the one that should get real
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On April 29 2016 15:44 uthgard wrote:
yes they would still 100% get the invite...get real dude
On April 29 2016 16:06 KingThorDan.Extreme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 15:09 Racket wrote:On April 29 2016 13:28 KingThorDan.Extreme wrote:On April 28 2016 21:02 DucK- wrote:On April 28 2016 20:49 FuzzyJAM wrote:On April 28 2016 15:40 DucK- wrote:
1. They are the defending major champions
2. They have a history of doing well in Valve events.
If we based it purely on meritocracy, Secret would not get invited. But it is logical and sensible to invite them because of their reputation/potential. I can't agree. I assume the merit should be judged including at least the last major, otherwise major performance would be irrelevant in determining merit, which would be odd given that they're obviously the most important tournaments. And they are the winners of that major. Sure, there has been a roster change, but the guys who got added were 3rd at that Major. So I find it hard to say they aren't a top 12 team based on merit. I feel if you have a roster change, you're starting from ground zero. We have no clue how well this team would mesh together. All we are basing on is reputation, and that's not meritocracy. I do agree that merit should be judge from the last major, and that's why Liquid is the most deserving of the invites. they change during roster lock period so i see no problem (valve adopted this system esp for this).why start from ground zero lol invites are given on the org Team secret won the major not puppey ,not EE. . newbee changed their lineup after ti4 yet they recieve their direct invite fro ti im sure unless they disband they will be invited for sure So, you say that if Secret changed Puppey and EE instead of w33 and Misery, they would get this invite too? Do you really want us to believe you believe that? Get real dude. ok lets assume(although your logic is super stupid as puppey is the one of the founding member of TS) that they changed puppey and EE still they would get the invite.3 member + changed during roster shuffle period . i see no problem there. heck even empire got invited at esl after the roster change . you're the one that should get real
Fans are so funny, I am glad I can read your posts, you make my day even better.
So, assuming that my super stupid logic let me make the following assumption: Puppey + EE out, w33+Misery+PLD stay, lets say Fng+Silent join, your super intelligent logic assume that Secret still get the invite because the org received the invite instead of the players.
Your statement is of course impossible to prove false but it is still either unbelievable naive or most hypocrite thing to say.
It is clear that these five guys got the invite because they are super popular and three of them won the last Major, if you wanna play the Empire+ESL card it is fine but deep down you know it isn't true (either way Empire won a qualifier and then changed roster while Secret changed roster and got the direct invite after that, so it is by no means a valid comparison).
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Isn't it the case in csgo that if you retain 3/5 of your lineup your previous major result counts? Not that Valve does things similarly in dota compared to cs in everything, but especially if the replacements were Arteezy and Universe (top3 in Shanghai themselves), I don't see how any 2 players changing would make Valve take the invite away. Not sure if Valve really would hold onto that 3/5 policy no matter the replacements, or if it would be a different story if the replacements were some pubstars with no previous results.
But there is nothing stupid about the idea that they would keep the invite even if it was Puppey and someone leaving. Though it doesn't imo have much to do with "Secret" winning, but rather that you still have the majority of the team that won.
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On April 29 2016 17:13 spudde123 wrote:
Isn't it the case in csgo that if you retain 3/5 of your lineup your previous major result counts? Not that Valve does things similarly in dota compared to cs in everything, but especially if the replacements were Arteezy and Universe (top3 in Shanghai themselves), I don't see how any 2 players changing would make Valve take the invite away. Not sure if Valve really would hold onto that 3/5 policy no matter the replacements, or if it would be a different story if the replacements were some pubstars with no previous results.
I see no problem either.
Thing is ESL explained they would have to break the rules and put themselves in the position where they could get sued.
Valve on the other hand never gives an explanation, and none ever pulled their rules' book to state they are avoiding getting sued.
We won't know until they say something, until then we are left to assume things. I am just saying such an assumption, that Puppey+EE+Universe+RTZ have no weight at all and any other combination of four players would still get the invite, is utter nonsense and unbelievable for me. Of course I could be wrong, but until proved wrong I will believe player names matter more than orgs names, at least for two years old organizations if not in all cases.
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Player names definitely matter more than org names, but in this case PLD, w33 and Misery also won the Shanghai major. Though Valve hasn't said it publicly, at least my belief is that if you retain the majority of the team your result counts. But I might be wrong, who knows really with Valve.
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eh you are basing your post on wild assumption but still proceed to call someone 'hypocrite' and 'naive' lmao...ok
and why are Silent+FNG even come to the equation, I thought we were talking about what if 'Secret changed Puppey and EE instead of w33 and Misery' obviously the one to replace them are still universe and rtz.
It is pretty clear that valve invite based more on individual than team name as you said, hence a team of W33,Misery,PLD,RTZ,universe definitely 100% deserve the invite. Not because of they're popular but because of their achievement on recent tournament (especially shanghai major).
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On April 29 2016 17:36 spudde123 wrote:
Player names definitely matter more than org names, but in this case PLD, w33 and Misery also won the Shanghai major. Though Valve hasn't said it publicly, at least my belief is that if you retain the majority of the team your result counts. But I might be wrong, who knows really with Valve.
Hopefully, but as you say, who knows really with Valve.
On April 29 2016 17:46 uthgard wrote:
eh you are basing your post on wild assumption but still proceed to call someone 'hypocrite' and 'naive' lmao...ok
and why are Silent+FNG even come to the equation, I thought we were talking about what if 'Secret changed Puppey and EE instead of w33 and Misery' obviously the one to replace them are still universe and rtz.
It is pretty clear that valve invite based more on individual than team name as you said, hence a team of W33,Misery,PLD,RTZ,universe definitely 100% deserve the invite. Not because of they're popular but because of their achievement on recent tournament (especially shanghai major).
Lol! You aren't doing it right dude.
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On April 29 2016 17:46 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 17:36 spudde123 wrote:
Player names definitely matter more than org names, but in this case PLD, w33 and Misery also won the Shanghai major. Though Valve hasn't said it publicly, at least my belief is that if you retain the majority of the team your result counts. But I might be wrong, who knows really with Valve. Hopefully, but as you say, who knows really with Valve. Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 17:46 uthgard wrote:
eh you are basing your post on wild assumption but still proceed to call someone 'hypocrite' and 'naive' lmao...ok
and why are Silent+FNG even come to the equation, I thought we were talking about what if 'Secret changed Puppey and EE instead of w33 and Misery' obviously the one to replace them are still universe and rtz.
It is pretty clear that valve invite based more on individual than team name as you said, hence a team of W33,Misery,PLD,RTZ,universe definitely 100% deserve the invite. Not because of they're popular but because of their achievement on recent tournament (especially shanghai major).
Lol! You aren't doing it right dude.
uhh what? I know you were replying to the dude that said that org > players (I also don't agree with this one), but clearly the particular example you put out was wrong/won't happen.
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On April 29 2016 17:11 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 15:44 uthgard wrote:
yes they would still 100% get the invite...get real dude Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 16:06 KingThorDan.Extreme wrote:On April 29 2016 15:09 Racket wrote:On April 29 2016 13:28 KingThorDan.Extreme wrote:On April 28 2016 21:02 DucK- wrote:On April 28 2016 20:49 FuzzyJAM wrote:On April 28 2016 15:40 DucK- wrote:
1. They are the defending major champions
2. They have a history of doing well in Valve events.
If we based it purely on meritocracy, Secret would not get invited. But it is logical and sensible to invite them because of their reputation/potential. I can't agree. I assume the merit should be judged including at least the last major, otherwise major performance would be irrelevant in determining merit, which would be odd given that they're obviously the most important tournaments. And they are the winners of that major. Sure, there has been a roster change, but the guys who got added were 3rd at that Major. So I find it hard to say they aren't a top 12 team based on merit. I feel if you have a roster change, you're starting from ground zero. We have no clue how well this team would mesh together. All we are basing on is reputation, and that's not meritocracy. I do agree that merit should be judge from the last major, and that's why Liquid is the most deserving of the invites. they change during roster lock period so i see no problem (valve adopted this system esp for this).why start from ground zero lol invites are given on the org Team secret won the major not puppey ,not EE. . newbee changed their lineup after ti4 yet they recieve their direct invite fro ti im sure unless they disband they will be invited for sure So, you say that if Secret changed Puppey and EE instead of w33 and Misery, they would get this invite too? Do you really want us to believe you believe that? Get real dude. ok lets assume(although your logic is super stupid as puppey is the one of the founding member of TS) that they changed puppey and EE still they would get the invite.3 member + changed during roster shuffle period . i see no problem there. heck even empire got invited at esl after the roster change . you're the one that should get real Fans are so funny, I am glad I can read your posts, you make my day even better. So, assuming that my super stupid logic let me make the following assumption: Puppey + EE out, w33+Misery+PLD stay, lets say Fng+Silent join, your super intelligent logic assume that Secret still get the invite because the org received the invite instead of the players. Your statement is of course impossible to prove false but it is still either unbelievable naive or most hypocrite thing to say. It is clear that these five guys got the invite because they are super popular and three of them won the last Major, if you wanna play the Empire+ESL card it is fine but deep down you know it isn't true (either way Empire won a qualifier and then changed roster while Secret changed roster and got the direct invite after that, so it is by no means a valid comparison).
empire won with ESL qualifier with different squad ,TS won with different squad but still there is a common GROUND=BOTH WON their respective tickets
after ti5 team secret was invited too to esl frankfurt because they got 8th place(ti5) and the org TS was still there.if the org TS was disbanded puppey wont get invite if he forms a new team.cant u see that ??
its funny how you get so salty because they will get ti6 invite ROFL
2nd at 1st major , and champ at 2nd major i see sure 99% invite unless they disbanded
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EPT
