EPTNa`Vi Discussion - Page 231
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midou
Bulgaria1168 Posts
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On June 29 2017 07:52 FreakyDroid wrote: LightOfHeaven: Pajkatt and Biver to leave, Na'Vi will be looking for 2 talented players, especially in CIS region, after 'awful' EU+CIS experience. Announcement soon. ARS-ART: No one from CIS want to become a Na'Vi player, almost no one. Community rumors: Dendi and Pajkatt had some 'serious issues' during qualifiers, the team wasn't a 'team' at all, no one wants to join Na'Vi because of Dendi still playing. ____________________ These are rumors, but they seem true. Not sure how I feel about this, I still think getting a new roster with 5 new players is the way to go, because apparently no proven player wants to join them anyway (not surprising tbh). If they still want to keep Dendi (which imo is a mistake) and keep milking his persona, perhaps they'll be smart enough to relegate him to pos 4 or 5, or if they decide to keep him as pos2 they'll be switching captains all the time until "the perfect one" comes along to guide the mighty Dendi hur dur lul. 5New players? CIS is the weakest region besides South America now, where do you want to take | ||
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
On June 29 2017 16:43 LemOn wrote: 5New players? CIS is the weakest region besides South America now, where do you want to take Perhaps it is, though looking at the qualifiers I think the region is on the rise, maybe this TI the results wont show that, but Im pretty sure next year CIS will do much better. CIS falling off in recent years is mostly due to having teams that are not as well organized/funded as NA/EU teams, its not because there is no talent, just look at the MMR leaderboards nearly 50% of the top 200 players in EU are from CIS. Besides VP and NaVi the others aren't financially powerful. Just look at VP man, or heck look at Empire, everyone's been poaching their players for the last 4 years yet they still managed to make decent teams by bringing new players and making stars from them. M19 came out of left field and those 17-20 year old kids are perhaps the hottest talk of the day. CIS being the weakest region imo is a very weak argument for why NaVi cant start cultivating new players and changing their approach to building a team, obviously that's not true because other teams have been doing that and are more successful than they are. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
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midou
Bulgaria1168 Posts
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Racket
3023 Posts
On June 29 2017 18:54 midou wrote: I think he is a great laner, but lategame is a big weakness. I still remember his PL mid disaster. That is because he still prioritizes his farm like it was 2013. He has the mechanics and the vision, he does not have the attitude current midlaners have (taking everything there is for them). He is still pos2 whereas most mids nowadays are pos1 usually. That is why his SF is never on par with others. He should go to the offlane and let someone more egotistic take the mid. | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
And it's definitely true all the heroes he plays it's like 5.5-7cs/minute where the greedy mids go for 8-10 Reminds me of S4 when he just started falling off, maybe it's time for Dondo to make the move to offlane as well. It's all about getting the farming tempo learned, along witrh rotations. Remember Miracle offlane Juggernaut constantly creeping while getting shitloads of kills all over the map and keepin with 8+cs/minute . You won't see Dendi do that And CIS will always struggle with getting a captain that has both the strategy down and can manage spazzy spewy tilting Slav players and their bs drama. Artstyle is captaining now, FNG is getting there... and there's nobody else | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
I don't know all the CIS players so well to know if there could be someone you could try. I think Miposhka drafts for Empire, and Afterlife and Cema have both drafted for their teams at some point. Also Resolution used to draft for Empire pretty successfully so if he were to come back to CIS he would be a pretty big snatch. But not sure how well each of those lead in game. | ||
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MetalMercury
United States1161 Posts
I mean, it's too late now. The team is gone. Just kinda sad that another team doesn't change their drafting style to actually fit their strengths and weaknesses. | ||
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midou
Bulgaria1168 Posts
On June 29 2017 19:07 Racket wrote: That is because he still prioritizes his farm like it was 2013. He has the mechanics and the vision, he does not have the attitude current midlaners have (taking everything there is for them). He is still pos2 whereas most mids nowadays are pos1 usually. That is why his SF is never on par with others. He should go to the offlane and let someone more egotistic take the mid. We all know this for years now, and this is exactly what I am saying. Not willing or not able makes no difference when the result is the same. | ||
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Plasma NAtion
Canada10 Posts
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On June 29 2017 20:26 LemOn wrote: I checked his Dotabuff from the qualifiers And it's definitely true all the heroes he plays it's like 5.5-7cs/minute where the greedy mids go for 8-10 Reminds me of S4 when he just started falling off, maybe it's time for Dondo to make the move to offlane as well. It's all about getting the farming tempo learned, along witrh rotations. Remember Miracle offlane Juggernaut constantly creeping while getting shitloads of kills all over the map and keepin with 8+cs/minute . You won't see Dendi do that And CIS will always struggle with getting a captain that has both the strategy down and can manage spazzy spewy tilting Slav players and their bs drama. Artstyle is captaining now, FNG is getting there... and there's nobody else In the 5 games they won, his cs/min was: 7.6 as Storm vs Effect - long game tricore all 500+ each, with sonneiko clock 250 cs 6.9 as QOP vs Comanche - tri core including a prophet 7.5 as DK vs DD - did so in a quick 24 min win 5.5 as BS vs Gambit - bloodseeker without any farming items 8.5 as storm vs anji In the 4 games they loss, his cs/min was: 8 as QoP vs Vega 5.5 as DK vs spirit - how to farm on dk when you're getting stomped 6.4 as qop vs empire - against an out of control puck 8.5 as lina vs m19 Numbers look alright to me given the circumstances, especially when he is not drafted as the carry mid like TA or SF. It's not like he is given the same space/protection as QO/ana. I feel the negativity on dendi's skill is unwarranted. Ideally he learns to farm a little bit more, but his numbers are not bad. They're acceptable. Again the main issue is that the drafts/shot calls are what is causing navi to lose games, not dendi's individual ability. You can't do much when your supports can't buy you space and your carry PvE for 30mins and still be useless. I dare say put miracle/ana/noone/suma1l in dendi's spot and the results will be the same. | ||
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OmniEulogy
Canada6600 Posts
On June 29 2017 21:48 Plasma NAtion wrote: Na-Vi = Toronto Maple Leafs only if this continues for 10+ years. Na'Vi's more like the Canucks currently | ||
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neozxa
Indonesia545 Posts
I am expecting one to come very very soon after the CIS qualifiers. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On June 29 2017 22:15 DucK- wrote: I dare say put miracle/ana/noone/suma1l in dendi's spot and the results will be the same. No doubt. He is not behind in skill, he is in attitude. Just like s4 was before he switched to offlane. Sadly you don't even have in NaVi the problem Liquid had, where you saw Miracle and Matumba fighting for the farm. Dendi farms ok but his carry does not do his job. You see Dendi always farming and helping the team here and there waiting for his carry to come online, but his carry NEVER comes online. And Dendi never stops helping his team to switch into afk-farm mode so you never see him in the position other mids currenly are. This team is not working and kicking Dendi is not necessary if you are going to change the carry anyway. Dendi, GeneRaL and Sonneiko work well together. They need a captain to give the team direction given none of these three can do it. They need another support who understands Sonneiko, and a carry that can fit the team in both situations, meaning: - Join them in small skirmishes - AFK farm to then carry | ||
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Pontual
Brazil3038 Posts
On June 29 2017 20:26 LemOn wrote: I checked his Dotabuff from the qualifiers And it's definitely true all the heroes he plays it's like 5.5-7cs/minute where the greedy mids go for 8-10 Reminds me of S4 when he just started falling off, maybe it's time for Dondo to make the move to offlane as well. It's all about getting the farming tempo learned, along witrh rotations. Remember Miracle offlane Juggernaut constantly creeping while getting shitloads of kills all over the map and keepin with 8+cs/minute . You won't see Dendi do that And CIS will always struggle with getting a captain that has both the strategy down and can manage spazzy spewy tilting Slav players and their bs drama. Artstyle is captaining now, FNG is getting there... and there's nobody else Na'vi much more as the Dendi is part owner. How can a captain do his job if his boss is the one he is trying to call out? Read on reddit that almost no one in CIS wants to play with Dendi. So what's left for na'vi? Who will they try to bring that will change this situation? Keep changing pieces but the problem is always the same. I wonder what hasn't changed all this time. I think the problem is Dendi, even though he is not that bad. Just bad for the team | ||
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shouldbeworking
946 Posts
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RubickPicker
United States332 Posts
On June 29 2017 18:24 FreakyDroid wrote: CIS falling off in recent years is mostly due to having teams that are not as well organized/funded as NA/EU teams, its not because there is no talent, just look at the MMR leaderboards nearly 50% of the top 200 players in EU are from CIS. Besides VP and NaVi the others aren't financially powerful. CIS falling off in recent years is because NA and EU are mingling talent more than ever. EE, Puppey, Zai, Artour, Reso, PLD, Misery, w33, etc. I don't know the visa work behind it, but NA's best and EU-W's best work together a lot, I guess it helps that Europeans tend to have knowledge in a bunch of languages and that often includes the only one that Americans are willing to learn. The world is getting smaller and smaller, and regions are mattering less, but a lot of CIS players won't or don't communicate well on a team of people from different backgrounds. Navi after TI3 was where it was first obvious, there was a clearly felt split between the EU contingent (Puppey/Kuro) and the CIS contingent (Xboct/Funnik) with Dendi kind of caught in the middle. This team didn't work out well, but we know at least from it that Dendi/General/Sonneiko are willing with EU players to build a winning squad. We don't know that about a lot of the other old players they've had. For example, Artstyle, who everyone keeps clamoring to have back. CIS teams are having problems for the same reason Alliance had problems: all the money in Dota right now has globalized it much more, and all-nationality teams are having issues. VP isn't, but they've picked up on a Sumail-style child prodigy in Ramses and giving him some of the best support in the scene. There was some All-Nationality Cup in China recently in that WESA tournament, and TNC won. Because right now VP and the Pinoy teams are the only successful non-China teams that aren't diverse. China is managing to remain competitive, but they have a huge population so they'll probably always develop new stars. Though right now, they're kind of down to Newbee with IG's legitimacy as a top team in question after Epicenter. On June 29 2017 21:48 Plasma NAtion wrote: Na-Vi = Toronto Maple Leafs Leafs are loaded with young talent, went to playoffs, and are expected to at least reach the Finals in the next five years. Navi... [emoji thinking guy here] | ||
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
On June 30 2017 06:33 RubickPicker wrote: SNIP Interesting argument, perhaps you're right but CIS is a big region with a player pool that is probably bigger than all of EU and a few teams are quite successful with only CIS players. But there's no denying that EU teams get players from Middle East, NA even SEA, while CIS teams stick to their own, so maybe you're right. | ||
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gotnowheels
Philippines51 Posts
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