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goody153
44238 Posts
On August 05 2017 10:12 Thetwinmasters wrote: Puppey was right about EE being the reason of why his teams keep getting bad placements in TIs. not completely right since they placed higher than puppey's team TI4 top 6 but this c9 sucks cant handle TI pressure .. i dont doubt they have the skills | ||
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
On August 05 2017 12:53 goody153 wrote: not completely right since they placed higher than puppey's team TI4 top 6 but this c9 sucks cant handle TI pressure .. i dont doubt they have the skills they also had singsing and bone7 instead of fata and MSS Guess sing and bone7 carried them | ||
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goody153
44238 Posts
On August 05 2017 13:48 TomatoBisque wrote: they also had singsing and bone7 instead of fata and MSS Guess sing and bone7 carried them unfortunately that's not the case since sing and bone can't carry themselves outside c9 .. both tried plenty of times while the rest found success outside the team | ||
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Furikawari
France2522 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
I rather see Fata on the slow, stable teamfight heroes à la DK, DP and such. And honestly I think he's really good on those. Can't claim I've seen all or even a lot of games from C9 due to timezones and me prioritizing liquid games if possible... but I didn't ever get the impression that he choked or underperformed? Yeah, everyone has some shitty games now and then and I'm sure he had those as well just as every other mid player for every other team but either I only randomly watched the games that had him perform decently or it's not as systematic of an issue as people in here claim it is. | ||
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Furikawari
France2522 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
That's all stuff I could see him playing. As well as stuff like Puck that's more about controlling the teamfight than actually going in there and blowing people up (let's assume a Puck without dagon). But that means you're not going to have someone who can solo take over the game like for example a QoP could and need someone else to bring the deeps. Which brings us to the problem atm (imo): EE not being able to bring the damage. Like I said, I haven't watched a lot of C9 games so I don't know what's going on exactly. Could be that he's trying too hard to contribute and missing out on farm resulting in him being too weak 10 minutes later or whatever else idk. Actually I kind of feel that's an issue for Matumba in Liquid games that they look bad in tbh. When he tries to get into the fights too much, it just for once doesn't work, rinse and repeat 2 more times and he's on the same farm level as our offlaner and it's all eggs in the miracle basket and let's hope he's an invoker  ///edit as an aside as I am checking compendium atm: Fata apparently had a game with 783 gpm which is the 8 highest, and is currently ranked #27 for average gpm with a score of 481.6. EE on the other hand averages 414.7 which brings him in at rank 38. Comparably Universe averages at 399.2 so far. Arguably a harsh comparison to make (EE <-> Universe) since EG as a whole won more so it's only natural that all EG members end up with more GPM than their C9 counterparts but the Fata <-> EE comparison is something to look at | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
The reason EE's average GPM is so low is that in a bunch of games he rotated really early in an attempt to pressure towers, but most of those rotations ended up not working and he just ends up underfarmed. Also they had a few games where their draft was quite terrible, they lost lanes and he couldn't farm. In quite a few games EE isn't even the 1, but rather Fata is, just as it is in any other team due to how important the mid lane is atm. And well ofc EE has also had other blunders, but anyway I think the way he is trying to play contributes to his individual "stats". For what it's worth they've gone a bit away from those specific early rotations with EE today at least. In general though I don't think there's any particular part in their game that is going fine. In some games their draft has been bad. In some games they have a good start and they give it away with their own aggression. In some games they just seem weirdly uncoordinated and end up getting caught out at a crucial time. And also their itemization is a bit wasteful sometimes. For example EE seems to be a fan of pipe on a lot of heroes, but I haven't really seen the effectiveness. I mean the pipe isn't bad against the lineups they've been against but they haven't really even got fights where it pays off, and then he has put gold into an item that doesn't help him kill people. Not convinced Aui never going Aghs on NS is a good idea, feels like in their NS games they don't even hold map control later on because of that. Also there was one game where none of them went initiation items, against iG I believe. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
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Moobutt
United States1996 Posts
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
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AbareKiller
456 Posts
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goody153
44238 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11075 Posts
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Furikawari
France2522 Posts
On August 06 2017 15:51 Sabu113 wrote: Would terribly anti climatic. That said was an underwhelming Jacky team at the start of the year and looks like the weakest Jacky team at TI. Whatever Sing's hater will pretend, EE's best run was TI4 where they played around Sing a lot of time. | ||
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goody153
44238 Posts
On August 06 2017 17:00 Furikawari wrote: Whatever Sing's hater will pretend, EE's best run was TI4 where they played around Sing a lot of time. c9 vs vg lower bracket ti4 singsing meepo is still the one the best esports moments i've seen seen but can't really pretend that just because Sing was there when they placed well that we can pretend all the other performance he has compared to his peers after his kick that he was stellar .. almost everybody managed some success after except him even if TI is a lot of money results wise it's just one tournament to the many tournaments/qualifiers there has been .. so i don't think sing is the only reason they could perform | ||
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Exoteric
Australia2330 Posts
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spudde123
4814 Posts
I think there were some positive signs on the last day. They played the early game well in a lot of games even before that, but on the last day they seemed to move a bit away from those really early EE rotations and instead just farmed a bit more. Against DC they still gave away early leads in both games with some pretty dreadful errors, it just came a bit later on than in some of their previous games. Anyway I thought the direction was good. But ofc even if they do improve and get past Empire, the next round will be tough. Newbee especially has been a tough opponent for NP/c9 the entire year. With EG they've had pretty good series a lot of the time even going back to the SVG+1437 lineup. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
I think they had a rough start with hard opponents and it tilted them. Maybe if they'd started with something easier they could have eased into a better tournament. Still, I think with some wins under their belt and time to chill out they could make a good run. | ||
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Bosscelot
United Kingdom52 Posts
He's certainly not a bad player at all and you can easily make the claim that overall he's a better player than Sing. However there's two crucial issues. The first is that, straight up, Sing is (was, RIP) much better at LANs. FATA just seems to love choking at big live events, TI especially, whereas Sing adapted to that sort of environment much better. The 2nd issue is the heroes FATA plays, how he builds them and how c9 generally plays. In the early c9 days Sing would end up carrying games on his own or be a really strong carry presence in lategame situations just because he was given heroes that would allow him to do that and he would itemize as such. Once he left, c9 really emphasized 4 protect 1 strats a lot more. Which might be okay if EE was capable of playing a competent and consistent 1 position. But he isn't. Worse yet, across all versions of the team they've been awful at actually pushing advantages and ending games, which means their games go on for longer and longer and you have all these nailbiting clowny ratfests going on which BETTER teams wouldn't have to resort to on such a regular basis. But where FATA comes into this is that he is given heroes that have much less lategame impact than the sort of heroes Sing was regularly drafted and he almost always builds mid-game focused stuff. c9 would let a game get to 50 minutes and FATA would have an octarine core QoP and basically be contributing absolutely fuck all to teamfights while EE feeds and they have no other source of major right click or tower damage. I just find it weird that despite presumably fitting in with the team better due to his personality and general demeanor, the way FATA actually plays and builds his heroes doesn't fit in with how c9 has ever really played. Ideally the team should really rethink how it does things on the whole and for fucks sake I hope the day comes when EE realizes he's wasting his time trying to force being a position 1. | ||
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