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This c9 certainly doesn't play any sort of "4p1" around EE, and any description of Fata as a player who plays utility heroes and not late game carries, or who doesn't farm a lot, isn't true at this point at all. Fata is regularly the 1 in this team, and almost all his heroes do very well in the late game. His pool used to be unusual for midlaners in the old c9, but that is hardly the case anymore.
Also as far as him in c9 goes, the best stretch of results c9 had was post TI4 when Fata had just replaced Sing. That is largely where the 2nd place meme comes from, as c9 was in the finals of 4 LANs inside 3 months or so, and got 3rd in 2 other ones. Also funnily enough that stretch is probably the closest c9 ever was to 4p1, because heroes like AM, Naga, TB, Morph and the old Void were commonly picked by them.
Imo the lategame throw meme on the other hand mostly originates from the lineup where n0tail and Misery had replaced Aui and PLD. For whatever reason that particular lineup had multiple incredible screwups with huge leads, but I don't think it has been true nearly to the same extent with any other c9/NP lineup. Not that they are super good from ahead, and granted in this event they've lost a few leads, but anyway I think the extent to which people talk about it comes from that one lineup. As far as I recall it was never a talking point before Aui and PLD had left, in fact c9 was often referred to as a late game team.
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DAC 2015 cemented the "C9 throws" meme, C9 used to choke at grand finals and perform suboptimally, but they rarely throw leads. DAC C9's entire bracket run is "win early game, get fucked by memeback or no TP". That's how they lost to Secret and Big God, leading to their elimination.
That iteration of C9 was an early game monster, unlike the PLD/Aui version, but the memeback patch made it 4-5 times as hard to go high ground, and thus it resulted in a lot of throws.
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LET'S FUCKING GO JACKAYY LMAO AND THE BOYSH
NO THROWS
NO FEEDS
NO BAFFLING SCIENTISTS
ONLY VICTORY
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It's time! Let's go EE-sama!
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Year after year I root for EE. Why do I do this to myself...
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I will still wear my C9 wristband every day. they have to win something eventually. RIGHT GUYS? RIGHT? #ti8champions, #beliEEve #memEEs
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FATA probably the biggest letdown on the team this tourney, pretty disappointing overall. EE also really bad until last day of groups and he did fine today. I still really like this team and I hope they stay together.
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fata choked pretty hard
mss/aui weren't their usual selves
envy didn't have any standout performances and was responsible for some questionable drafting
pie's just a poor pos 10
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Envy seemed quite a bit below his usual standards. Was underwhelmed when NP was formed unsurprising year. Hope he gets picked into a better framework so we can see his carry ability and thoughts.
MSS was a pleasant surprise this year.
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Liquid got some sort of counseling/psychologist after they qualified for Wild Card TI4 and did super well then, C9 is the kind of team that need it badly. They always choke in high pressure situation
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Sad to see C9 out of the tournament so early, even when they struggle they are always entertaining to watch. I think they have a lot to be hopeful for in the future based on how their early-game play went this tournament. So many times they did good work early on to gain an advantageous position after the laning stage, but failed to press it in ways that would break the game open for them. It seemed like they had a lot of detection-related issues in games this TI too - a hallmark of EE teams from years of watching them - but I imagine that's something they could fix if they gave it priority. I guess we'll see what post-TI holds...
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C9 playing their best, but losing out because of bad decision making is one thing, this TI they just played passive as hell, farmed, then lose. The only time they did something was the DC game (Envy courier chase bait, with his team behind ready to pick off) and they steamrolled DC.
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I have no idea why people are still on the Envy train. It's like Sing Sing I guess- popular because entertaining, but when was the last time he did anything impressive anywhere? People applaud him for his weird playstyle/ item choices, but maybe they're just that. Weird as in "not good".
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On August 08 2017 17:34 AbareKiller wrote:
C9 playing their best, but losing out because of bad decision making is one thing, this TI they just played passive as hell, farmed, then lose. The only time they did something was the DC game (Envy courier chase bait, with his team behind ready to pick off) and they steamrolled DC.
In some of the early group stage games they played very fast paced, even to a fault. They had some good laning stages and gave them away by trying to pressure too much. I only caught the highlights of this Empire game, but the draft seems a bit difficult to me in the sense that Empire has superior teamfight, and also they have the vision edge with NS so it's hard for c9 to get pickoffs or to get a teamfight jump. Seemed like at some point around min 30 c9 guys just started getting picked off a bit. They probably needed 1 strong fight to get AW and DK really far ahead but it never really came and when Empire gets ahead with those heroes it's hard to win. Not sure what exactly happened earlier on and whether c9 could have been in a better position at that time.
On August 08 2017 16:57 SeethingErmine wrote:
Sad to see C9 out of the tournament so early, even when they struggle they are always entertaining to watch. I think they have a lot to be hopeful for in the future based on how their early-game play went this tournament. So many times they did good work early on to gain an advantageous position after the laning stage, but failed to press it in ways that would break the game open for them. It seemed like they had a lot of detection-related issues in games this TI too - a hallmark of EE teams from years of watching them - but I imagine that's something they could fix if they gave it priority. I guess we'll see what post-TI holds...
Yea I think their early game was mostly fine, apart from the 1-2 games where their draft was a complete disaster for that. Not really sure what was going on with their midgame play though. They didn't struggle nearly as much in that department in previous tournaments but they rarely felt coordinated and like they had a clear purpose in this event.
Hard to really say what'll happen to the team, depends a lot on what other teams split up and whether there are other opportunities.
On August 08 2017 17:52 nothingmuch wrote:
I have no idea why people are still on the Envy train. It's like Sing Sing I guess- popular because entertaining, but when was the last time he did anything impressive anywhere? People applaud him for his weird playstyle/ item choices, but maybe they're just that. Weird as in "not good".
Not sure what train you are envisioning, I don't see many people arguing about c9 or EE being the best in the world. Entertaining people in an entertainment industry is a pretty good way to get fans. Their performance pre-TI suggested they could get a pretty good placing, but they underperformed compared to that.
My armchair analysis of EE as a captain is that he gets his teams to always work hard together but he lacks some of the drafting and ingame communication ability to lead a team to the absolute top. I think for him to perform well individually it would be ideal to have another captain and have him as the secondary guy throwing out ideas. In the early days of Secret he played very well. But not sure who that could be at this point. Seems more likely that he'll continue to captain his own team. Maybe he could play 5 again and improve in drafting and such through that, hard to say.
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Yeah well I guess it's just my impression of him getting way more attention than this level of play deserves. Also really surprised with FATAs performance- he used to be rock solid on every team he played so far.
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Somehow snag PPD! Or really just anyone who can draft and captain.
Or maybe put Envy into offlane.
Oh well... don't think the team can stick together anyway.
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Actually now that I watched the game a bit more I think better of the draft. They got picked off several times in pretty stupid ways imo, first Aui and EE while trying to defend the top t1 and then later on Aui and Fata got caught 2 times each in bad positions, which led to bad fights. Of course Empire had good heroes to pick people off, but if c9 had some more discipline in their positioning I think they could have avoided some of those and they had the tools to completely roll over Empire in a fight if they managed to start one on their terms. They just never did after the first 25mins or so and lost control of the game
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I know that there are a lot of EE fans out there, but this is just another time teams with him in them failing misserably. It cant be his team fault every time.
The throws were real during the group stages, only the old EG and old C9 were able to throw games like that.
The game yesterday they were simply outplayed by Empire as simple as that. And thats not because of individual skill.
They never looked really as a team this TI. Don't know who is the real shot caller in game but that seems like his fault.
Also every team with envy in it seems to like to play the split push game last time it was nagas and TBs all over the place now its AW turn to try it.
Fata performed good every time he was in a good team, maybe he had a bad week, but still a mid is only as good as his team wants him to be.
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EPT
