HotBid: "Why do you guys .. constantly have this games that are just .. is it cause of ingame calls it .. it seems like every c9 game has to have some crazy .. even the ones you win " Misery : "generally it's probably bone and envy thinks about the game .. like we have this extremes on both sides and the games can be really strange cause people think very differently on the game " Hotbid: "what do you mean" Misery: "Idk how to explain like envy has a very specfic way of thinking about the game very special i think compared to a lot of different players and same with bone like he has a very unique way of thinking .. even notail has a very specific way .. like me and fata are probably" Hotbid: "you guys are the most standard" Misery : "yeah"
HotBid: "Why do you guys .. constantly have this games that are just .. is it cause of ingame calls it .. it seems like every c9 game has to have some crazy .. even the ones you win " Misery : "generally it's probably bone and envy thinks about the game .. like we have this extremes on both sides and the games can be really strange cause people think very differently on the game " Hotbid: "what do you mean" Misery: "Idk how to explain like envy has a very specfic way of thinking about the game very special i think compared to a lot of different players and same with bone like he has a very unique way of thinking .. even notail has a very specific way .. like me and fata are probably" Hotbid: "you guys are the most standard" Misery : "yeah"
Well, considering the LGD vs C9 game 2, how many carry would decide to buy rapier to trade rax, like that's some classic envy shit, but probably no other carry would do that imo.
HotBid: "Why do you guys .. constantly have this games that are just .. is it cause of ingame calls it .. it seems like every c9 game has to have some crazy .. even the ones you win " Misery : "generally it's probably bone and envy thinks about the game .. like we have this extremes on both sides and the games can be really strange cause people think very differently on the game " Hotbid: "what do you mean" Misery: "Idk how to explain like envy has a very specfic way of thinking about the game very special i think compared to a lot of different players and same with bone like he has a very unique way of thinking .. even notail has a very specific way .. like me and fata are probably" Hotbid: "you guys are the most standard" Misery : "yeah"
Well, considering the LGD vs C9 game 2, how many carry would decide to buy rapier to trade rax, like that's some classic envy shit, but probably no other carry would do that imo.
misery mentioned that was envy's call and envy also said there was no way to beat the push with aegis and he noticed only earthshaker is the only one with a tp
On July 31 2015 13:14 Piledriver wrote: I don't even get how you guys are so confident about C9's chances. I mean I've been a fanboy of them since their Kaipi days with CWM + Arteezy, but at no point in their history have they looked as mediocre as they are looking right now.
I expect them to crash and burn. Top 12 exit, unless they get a weaker team in the lower bracket, in which case they will finish Top 8.
Edit: I guess I was being a bit harsh, but to elaborate, in the past they had a very unique style that was not duplicated by any other team. This made them a wildcard capable of upsetting top teams. They were the team that came up with so many innovations like a farming 4 position (way before zai made it fashionable) where the carry rotates into the jungle and clears the lane for the 4 pos, drow visage, and probably the only team running Meepo on a regular basis in top tier games. Their split pushing and greed was second to none, and they always extracted more from the map than any other team.
Right now, I don't see a single thing that differentiates them from the other teams. The either win the draft and roll the game, or lose the draft and get rolled over. Vs top tier teams, they get out executed on a regular basis, and make the sloppiest of plays, getting picked around the map.
Misery has been excellent and N0tail mediocre, but as a support duo, their warding has been some of the worst among all the teams in this TI. You can regularly see C9 have 0 map vision for like 2 minutes at a stretch (as early as 6-7 minutes), even when the opposite team has no gem. And then the cores get repeatedly picked off. In the past this was justified by their insane map utilization where Singsing and Aui would use the space created by Envy and B7 to get uberfarmed, but now they are not getting any useful trades like they did in the past.
Today's game vs Complexity was probably the worst I have seen in a while.
Just gonna quote myself again. Like I said, MEDIOCRE.
C9 once again drafted themselves into a corner where they need to be ahead to have a shot at winning the game. Pick-off lineup in a teamfight meta. Facepalm. And I have to agree, the execution wasn't there either. They were in a strong position in the second game, but a lack of map vision made it impossible to predict the smoke and giving away 4 track kills was horrendous and sealed their fate.
On July 31 2015 13:14 Piledriver wrote: I don't even get how you guys are so confident about C9's chances. I mean I've been a fanboy of them since their Kaipi days with CWM + Arteezy, but at no point in their history have they looked as mediocre as they are looking right now.
I expect them to crash and burn. Top 12 exit, unless they get a weaker team in the lower bracket, in which case they will finish Top 8.
Edit: I guess I was being a bit harsh, but to elaborate, in the past they had a very unique style that was not duplicated by any other team. This made them a wildcard capable of upsetting top teams. They were the team that came up with so many innovations like a farming 4 position (way before zai made it fashionable) where the carry rotates into the jungle and clears the lane for the 4 pos, drow visage, and probably the only team running Meepo on a regular basis in top tier games. Their split pushing and greed was second to none, and they always extracted more from the map than any other team.
Right now, I don't see a single thing that differentiates them from the other teams. The either win the draft and roll the game, or lose the draft and get rolled over. Vs top tier teams, they get out executed on a regular basis, and make the sloppiest of plays, getting picked around the map.
Misery has been excellent and N0tail mediocre, but as a support duo, their warding has been some of the worst among all the teams in this TI. You can regularly see C9 have 0 map vision for like 2 minutes at a stretch (as early as 6-7 minutes), even when the opposite team has no gem. And then the cores get repeatedly picked off. In the past this was justified by their insane map utilization where Singsing and Aui would use the space created by Envy and B7 to get uberfarmed, but now they are not getting any useful trades like they did in the past.
Today's game vs Complexity was probably the worst I have seen in a while.
Just gonna quote myself again. Like I said, MEDIOCRE.
Oh boy, that was disappointing. After all the pauses in game 2 I already forgot what exactly went on in game 1, but for whatever reason all of Misery, bone and n0tail were underleveled. As far as I recall it felt to me like c9 could have overwhelmed CDEC in some of those early fights, but they either were not in the correct position to take the fight (for example a fight mid broke out where n0tail wasn't around to tether EE or Fata to keep them up and running), and I seem to recall an early fight bot that seemed decent for c9 but I think they in the end didn't get anyone and CDEC even got a kill with Lina on the side of the fight. And with the start he had bone was completely useless in the game, and it's not like DK&Razor are the best comeback heroes either. Not to mention how you can screw up once with Wisp lineup against WW and it's a complete disaster.
2nd game I think they had only one way to win. It started out fine but if they ever let go of their lead they were screwed. Despite c9 having LC, SWM, Zeus etc., it is far more easy for CDEC to threaten pickoffs (PL got strong so he alone is a threatening force on a side lane, Lina is very dangerous to everyone on c9, BH gives constant information on c9's movements). So c9 has to move a lot as a unit, and CDEC has pretty good farming heroes to take advantage of that. But I have to say CDEC kited the fights nicely, waited till c9 used their spells and then chased them down with PL and Lina etc.
I was hoping for c9 to get their drafting more together for the playoffs but CDEC was strong and c9 is meh. We'll see how it goes in the lower bracket, I don't have too high hopes for any sort of miracle run. As far as drafting goes I think their idea of how to play the game isn't on the same level as with some other teams at the moment (though this is not only in drafting, but also in how the team plays). It's easy to put the blame on bone7, but they changed from EE when it wasn't really working and noone else is ready to step up, so it's a bit silly to blame a single person for that part. But I'm curious to see if they still trust bone tomorrow or if they make some sort of hail mary moves and say that someone else should just take the seat and see how it goes.
On August 04 2015 10:52 spudde123 wrote: Oh boy, that was disappointing. After all the pauses in game 2 I already forgot what exactly went on in game 1, but for whatever reason all of Misery, bone and n0tail were underleveled. As far as I recall it felt to me like c9 could have overwhelmed CDEC in some of those early fights, but they either were not in the correct position to take the fight (for example a fight mid broke out where n0tail wasn't around to tether EE or Fata to keep them up and running), and I seem to recall an early fight bot that seemed decent for c9 but I think they in the end didn't get anyone and CDEC even got a kill with Lina on the side of the fight. And with the start he had bone was completely useless in the game, and it's not like DK&Razor are the best comeback heroes either. Not to mention how you can screw up once with Wisp lineup against WW and it's a complete disaster.
2nd game I think they had only one way to win. It started out fine but if they ever let go of their lead they were screwed. Despite c9 having LC, SWM, Zeus etc., it is far more easy for CDEC to threaten pickoffs (PL got strong so he alone is a threatening force on a side lane, Lina is very dangerous to everyone on c9, BH gives constant information on c9's movements). So c9 has to move a lot as a unit, and CDEC has pretty good farming heroes to take advantage of that. But I have to say CDEC kited the fights nicely, waited till c9 used their spells and then chased them down with PL and Lina etc.
I was hoping for c9 to get their drafting more together for the playoffs but CDEC was strong and c9 is meh. We'll see how it goes in the lower bracket, I don't have too high hopes for any sort of miracle run.
C9 got baited into picking wisp imo. Locking wisp in so early basically guaranteed what early game would look like. They never denied BH or lina which doomed them IMO. (especially BH) Honestly I haven't been impressed with bone's drafts as he always tries cute shit that doesn't work with this current lineup
DK is a fine comeback hero as he can fight with less items than other carries in early/mid game, but the razor/np picks were useless. Bone also seems to not like picking 3 position heroes with stuns outside of LC which seem to always give C9 these weird drafts with minimal stuns that basically rely on winning lanes and snowballing, which was never C9's true strong suit
On August 04 2015 10:52 spudde123 wrote: Oh boy, that was disappointing. After all the pauses in game 2 I already forgot what exactly went on in game 1, but for whatever reason all of Misery, bone and n0tail were underleveled. As far as I recall it felt to me like c9 could have overwhelmed CDEC in some of those early fights, but they either were not in the correct position to take the fight (for example a fight mid broke out where n0tail wasn't around to tether EE or Fata to keep them up and running), and I seem to recall an early fight bot that seemed decent for c9 but I think they in the end didn't get anyone and CDEC even got a kill with Lina on the side of the fight. And with the start he had bone was completely useless in the game, and it's not like DK&Razor are the best comeback heroes either. Not to mention how you can screw up once with Wisp lineup against WW and it's a complete disaster.
2nd game I think they had only one way to win. It started out fine but if they ever let go of their lead they were screwed. Despite c9 having LC, SWM, Zeus etc., it is far more easy for CDEC to threaten pickoffs (PL got strong so he alone is a threatening force on a side lane, Lina is very dangerous to everyone on c9, BH gives constant information on c9's movements). So c9 has to move a lot as a unit, and CDEC has pretty good farming heroes to take advantage of that. But I have to say CDEC kited the fights nicely, waited till c9 used their spells and then chased them down with PL and Lina etc.
I was hoping for c9 to get their drafting more together for the playoffs but CDEC was strong and c9 is meh. We'll see how it goes in the lower bracket, I don't have too high hopes for any sort of miracle run.
C9 got baited into picking wisp imo. Locking wisp in so early basically guaranteed what early game would look like. They never denied BH or lina which doomed them IMO. (especially BH) Honestly I haven't been impressed with bone's drafts as he always tries cute shit that doesn't work with this current lineup
DK is a fine comeback hero as he can fight with less items than other carries in early/mid game, but the razor/np picks were useless. Bone also seems to not like picking 3 position heroes with stuns outside of LC which seem to always give C9 these weird drafts with minimal stuns that basically rely on winning lanes and snowballing, which was never C9's true strong suit
Well it goes both ways, I'm sure CDEC was aware that c9 may pick the wisp, but c9 also were confident in picking it.
Imo the Razor was fine, and it had potential to work in that game. The issue was imo that they ended up taking suboptimal fights just barely before Razor got his Mek up. Not to mention that when Razor and DK were very strong and wanted to fight, the NP was like lvl 5 and 3rd lowest in net worth or whatever and had zero contribution. As far as I recall c9 didn't need much more to completely overwhelm CDEC in some of those early fights, but when they don't have for example that Furion ult they instead got no kills and didn't gain anything.
On August 04 2015 10:52 spudde123 wrote: Oh boy, that was disappointing. After all the pauses in game 2 I already forgot what exactly went on in game 1, but for whatever reason all of Misery, bone and n0tail were underleveled. As far as I recall it felt to me like c9 could have overwhelmed CDEC in some of those early fights, but they either were not in the correct position to take the fight (for example a fight mid broke out where n0tail wasn't around to tether EE or Fata to keep them up and running), and I seem to recall an early fight bot that seemed decent for c9 but I think they in the end didn't get anyone and CDEC even got a kill with Lina on the side of the fight. And with the start he had bone was completely useless in the game, and it's not like DK&Razor are the best comeback heroes either. Not to mention how you can screw up once with Wisp lineup against WW and it's a complete disaster.
2nd game I think they had only one way to win. It started out fine but if they ever let go of their lead they were screwed. Despite c9 having LC, SWM, Zeus etc., it is far more easy for CDEC to threaten pickoffs (PL got strong so he alone is a threatening force on a side lane, Lina is very dangerous to everyone on c9, BH gives constant information on c9's movements). So c9 has to move a lot as a unit, and CDEC has pretty good farming heroes to take advantage of that. But I have to say CDEC kited the fights nicely, waited till c9 used their spells and then chased them down with PL and Lina etc.
I was hoping for c9 to get their drafting more together for the playoffs but CDEC was strong and c9 is meh. We'll see how it goes in the lower bracket, I don't have too high hopes for any sort of miracle run.
C9 got baited into picking wisp imo. Locking wisp in so early basically guaranteed what early game would look like. They never denied BH or lina which doomed them IMO. (especially BH) Honestly I haven't been impressed with bone's drafts as he always tries cute shit that doesn't work with this current lineup
DK is a fine comeback hero as he can fight with less items than other carries in early/mid game, but the razor/np picks were useless. Bone also seems to not like picking 3 position heroes with stuns outside of LC which seem to always give C9 these weird drafts with minimal stuns that basically rely on winning lanes and snowballing, which was never C9's true strong suit
Well it goes both ways, I'm sure CDEC was aware that c9 may pick the wisp, but c9 also were confident in picking it.
Imo the Razor was fine, and it had potential to work in that game. The issue was imo that they ended up taking suboptimal fights just barely before Razor got his Mek up. Not to mention that when Razor and DK were very strong and wanted to fight, the NP was like lvl 5 and 3rd lowest in net worth or whatever and had zero contribution. As far as I recall c9 didn't need much more to completely overwhelm CDEC in some of those early fights, but when they don't have for example that Furion ult they instead got no kills and didn't gain anything.
I've never been impressed with bone7 NP.(TI4 memories...) Honestly Bone needs bat to be buffed again. I do agree that he completely misplayed the early game. But seems like C9 just might not have it in them at this point
the most disappointing to me was the lack of preparation their draft showed
cdec preferred dire to the point that literally all of their games during the group stage were on dire; they get dire both times again
we saw aggressif gyrocopter, shiki lina, and garder BH dominate during the group stage; c9 give up those heroes freely
in addition their drafts had little or no hard catch against BH track, which became a disaster during the midgame of both games as they were kited freely
On August 04 2015 11:15 Kraznaya wrote: the most disappointing to me was the lack of preparation their draft showed
cdec preferred dire to the point that literally all of their games during the group stage were on dire; they get dire both times again
we saw aggressif gyrocopter, shiki lina, and garder BH dominate during the group stage; c9 give up those heroes freely
in addition their drafts had little or no hard catch against BH track, which became a disaster during the midgame of both games as they were kited freely
Yep classic bone7 no stun draft
Bone drafts have been so hit or miss, I haven't been a fan
EPT
