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one major issue with d3 itemization is that most chars and builds use crits to regenerate their resources. since resource regeneration is de facto mandatory, this forces most chars and builds towards stacking cc (and or ias).
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Something that I do miss is having to hit certain breakpoints for build efficiency. I liked having your skills and +skill gear determine most of your damage, but then have to hit IAS, FCR, MBR, FHR breakpoints to be most efficient.
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On August 29 2013 09:33 Mistakes wrote:
Something that I do miss is having to hit certain breakpoints for build efficiency. I liked having your skills and +skill gear determine most of your damage, but then have to hit IAS, FCR, MBR, FHR breakpoints to be most efficient.
Breakpoints exist in D3 too. CM/WW wizards and rend/ww barbs use them. Mostly breakpoints exist for anything that isnt a normal attack but something that is spawned (I believe).
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On August 29 2013 06:55 rezoacken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 05:17 chaos021 wrote:On August 29 2013 00:50 crms wrote:i like a lot of these suggestions but itemization and character development are by far the most important issues. paragon system 2.0 is a nice baby step but the items and character interaction needs an overhaul. while the writing is harsh and I wish better written and a bit more comprehensive, this 'info-graph' highlights the major issue with D2 vs D3 loot itemization. While doing my re-play of Diablo 2 this week, I've run Nightmare Meph about 10-15 times and found ~12 uniques (legendaries). Including some nice niche uniques that are great for certain builds on other classes. Stuff like that just doesn't happen in D3. It won't happen because you'll never spend 15-20m doing quick boss runs to obtain ~12 legendaries, and the legendaries you would find in ACT3NM wouldn't be worth IDing. When characters have no depth of customization, the items are boring and undesirable. + Show Spoiler + Amen. The really insulting part is that they had 5years to think upon a system (and test it), 40hours a week and with 2 games as precedents. Took 2 days for people to recognize the stat system as boring. That's really sad.
IMO, the problem is that they tried to combine WOW's loot system with Diablo II's loot system, and ended up getting the worst of both systems (somehow). In WOW, the loot is a progressive system, and the raiding is progressive so there is an inherent understanding that you have to go: Dungeon A> Raid B > Raid C. And, since the raids are long, complex, and a group thing the progression is interesting and skill-based. On the other hand you have D2 where Basically you can beat the game naked, and an item from anywhere can be useful anywhere. Skipping entire regions is possible, but simply running through in the normal way will equip you perfectly fine.
On the other hand, D3, at least on release, and really still, has a system where defeating enemies is almost entirely binary, but you absolutely need to "progess" gearwise in the WOW manner. And, to be honest, unlike WOW or D2, being undergeared in D3 is somehow even more debilitating, because the D3 mobs for some reason were given amazing skillsets that are basically designed to prevent kiting or outplaying by Player Characters (things like teleport, walling, and prison that are on lower CDs than your skills makes this obvious).
TLDR: D3 = D2+WOW - (the good parts of D2+WoW)
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the mmorpg linear item tier list works because they correspond to content level. a lvlMAX item is from the toughest places, and so on. the content is supposed to be hard and time consuming enough to not bore people too much (instance dungeon timers etc).
it's a totally different game mechanic from classic d2 or d3 the way it is played, where end game is more open ended and each farming run is 5 minutes.
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On August 29 2013 12:38 oneofthem wrote:
the mmorpg linear item tier list works because they correspond to content level. a lvlMAX item is from the toughest places, and so on. the content is supposed to be hard and time consuming enough to not bore people too much (instance dungeon timers etc).
it's a totally different game mechanic from classic d2 or d3 the way it is played, where end game is more open ended and each farming run is 5 minutes.
Yet, D3 farming runs are both boring and long.
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On August 29 2013 12:44 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 12:38 oneofthem wrote:
the mmorpg linear item tier list works because they correspond to content level. a lvlMAX item is from the toughest places, and so on. the content is supposed to be hard and time consuming enough to not bore people too much (instance dungeon timers etc).
it's a totally different game mechanic from classic d2 or d3 the way it is played, where end game is more open ended and each farming run is 5 minutes. Yet, D3 farming runs are both boring and long.
D3 farming runs are as long or as short as you want them to be. One of the most effective legendary farms is like 5 minutes max. Or you can mix it up and do multiple zones, or you can do a number of other things.
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On August 29 2013 13:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 12:44 cLutZ wrote:On August 29 2013 12:38 oneofthem wrote:
the mmorpg linear item tier list works because they correspond to content level. a lvlMAX item is from the toughest places, and so on. the content is supposed to be hard and time consuming enough to not bore people too much (instance dungeon timers etc).
it's a totally different game mechanic from classic d2 or d3 the way it is played, where end game is more open ended and each farming run is 5 minutes. Yet, D3 farming runs are both boring and long. D3 farming runs are as long or as short as you want them to be. One of the most effective legendary farms is like 5 minutes max. Or you can mix it up and do multiple zones, or you can do a number of other things.
Which farm is that? Is it possible to do with shitty items (if not why are you even talking about it)?
I haven't played in a while because of the problems I initially described (basically once I beat Inf diablo I was done except on random 30 mins sessions). But, if you cant do said run with items from hell mode, its not a run d2 style.
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On August 29 2013 13:16 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 13:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 29 2013 12:44 cLutZ wrote:On August 29 2013 12:38 oneofthem wrote:
the mmorpg linear item tier list works because they correspond to content level. a lvlMAX item is from the toughest places, and so on. the content is supposed to be hard and time consuming enough to not bore people too much (instance dungeon timers etc).
it's a totally different game mechanic from classic d2 or d3 the way it is played, where end game is more open ended and each farming run is 5 minutes. Yet, D3 farming runs are both boring and long. D3 farming runs are as long or as short as you want them to be. One of the most effective legendary farms is like 5 minutes max. Or you can mix it up and do multiple zones, or you can do a number of other things. Which farm is that? Is it possible to do with shitty items (if not why are you even talking about it)? I haven't played in a while because of the problems I initially described (basically once I beat Inf diablo I was done except on random 30 mins sessions). But, if you cant do said run with items from hell mode, its not a run d2 style.
Act 1 fields of misery has the highest legendary drops per hour (with people getting ~11+/hour) once you figure out a good route. Higher MP = more drops so do it at the highest MP that is efficient. You can do anything in MP0 inferno with hell items easily (but MP1 is ideal as it boosts all monsters to max level). MP scaling fixed the entire issue of inferno being too hard from hell to inferno.
Fields of misery even feels a bit like doing a cow level run in D2
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On August 29 2013 14:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 13:16 cLutZ wrote:On August 29 2013 13:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 29 2013 12:44 cLutZ wrote:On August 29 2013 12:38 oneofthem wrote:
the mmorpg linear item tier list works because they correspond to content level. a lvlMAX item is from the toughest places, and so on. the content is supposed to be hard and time consuming enough to not bore people too much (instance dungeon timers etc).
it's a totally different game mechanic from classic d2 or d3 the way it is played, where end game is more open ended and each farming run is 5 minutes. Yet, D3 farming runs are both boring and long. D3 farming runs are as long or as short as you want them to be. One of the most effective legendary farms is like 5 minutes max. Or you can mix it up and do multiple zones, or you can do a number of other things. Which farm is that? Is it possible to do with shitty items (if not why are you even talking about it)? I haven't played in a while because of the problems I initially described (basically once I beat Inf diablo I was done except on random 30 mins sessions). But, if you cant do said run with items from hell mode, its not a run d2 style. Act 1 fields of misery has the highest legendary drops per hour (with people getting ~11+/hour) once you figure out a good route. Higher MP = more drops so do it at the highest MP that is efficient. You can do anything in MP0 inferno with hell items easily (but MP1 is ideal as it boosts all monsters to max level). MP scaling fixed the entire issue of inferno being too hard from hell to inferno. Fields of misery even feels a bit like doing a cow level run in D2
Ahh, so they bandaided the game with a new "The Pit". Smart. Maybe I am back in.
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On August 29 2013 14:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 13:16 cLutZ wrote:On August 29 2013 13:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 29 2013 12:44 cLutZ wrote:On August 29 2013 12:38 oneofthem wrote:
the mmorpg linear item tier list works because they correspond to content level. a lvlMAX item is from the toughest places, and so on. the content is supposed to be hard and time consuming enough to not bore people too much (instance dungeon timers etc).
it's a totally different game mechanic from classic d2 or d3 the way it is played, where end game is more open ended and each farming run is 5 minutes. Yet, D3 farming runs are both boring and long. D3 farming runs are as long or as short as you want them to be. One of the most effective legendary farms is like 5 minutes max. Or you can mix it up and do multiple zones, or you can do a number of other things. Which farm is that? Is it possible to do with shitty items (if not why are you even talking about it)? I haven't played in a while because of the problems I initially described (basically once I beat Inf diablo I was done except on random 30 mins sessions). But, if you cant do said run with items from hell mode, its not a run d2 style. Act 1 fields of misery has the highest legendary drops per hour (with people getting ~11+/hour) once you figure out a good route. Higher MP = more drops so do it at the highest MP that is efficient. You can do anything in MP0 inferno with hell items easily (but MP1 is ideal as it boosts all monsters to max level). MP scaling fixed the entire issue of inferno being too hard from hell to inferno. Fields of misery even feels a bit like doing a cow level run in D2
Do people just run fields of misery and thats it? Or do they go anywhere else for NV stacks?
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On August 29 2013 16:26 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 14:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 29 2013 13:16 cLutZ wrote:On August 29 2013 13:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 29 2013 12:44 cLutZ wrote:On August 29 2013 12:38 oneofthem wrote:
the mmorpg linear item tier list works because they correspond to content level. a lvlMAX item is from the toughest places, and so on. the content is supposed to be hard and time consuming enough to not bore people too much (instance dungeon timers etc).
it's a totally different game mechanic from classic d2 or d3 the way it is played, where end game is more open ended and each farming run is 5 minutes. Yet, D3 farming runs are both boring and long. D3 farming runs are as long or as short as you want them to be. One of the most effective legendary farms is like 5 minutes max. Or you can mix it up and do multiple zones, or you can do a number of other things. Which farm is that? Is it possible to do with shitty items (if not why are you even talking about it)? I haven't played in a while because of the problems I initially described (basically once I beat Inf diablo I was done except on random 30 mins sessions). But, if you cant do said run with items from hell mode, its not a run d2 style. Act 1 fields of misery has the highest legendary drops per hour (with people getting ~11+/hour) once you figure out a good route. Higher MP = more drops so do it at the highest MP that is efficient. You can do anything in MP0 inferno with hell items easily (but MP1 is ideal as it boosts all monsters to max level). MP scaling fixed the entire issue of inferno being too hard from hell to inferno. Fields of misery even feels a bit like doing a cow level run in D2 Do people just run fields of misery and thats it? Or do they go anywhere else for NV stacks?
If you are farming for legendaries, just fields of misery and if it spawns go into the decaying crypts. You can farm other locations too, that is just the best for legendaries.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
doesn't really matter if it's one zone or an entire act. it's still very short content compared to item-tier linked dungeon instances in MMOs. the linear item progression system probably works in those mmos, but without being tightly linked with content and having so much more repeatability and no account binding, the content becomes very thin very quickly.
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On August 29 2013 16:26 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 14:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 29 2013 13:16 cLutZ wrote:On August 29 2013 13:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 29 2013 12:44 cLutZ wrote:On August 29 2013 12:38 oneofthem wrote:
the mmorpg linear item tier list works because they correspond to content level. a lvlMAX item is from the toughest places, and so on. the content is supposed to be hard and time consuming enough to not bore people too much (instance dungeon timers etc).
it's a totally different game mechanic from classic d2 or d3 the way it is played, where end game is more open ended and each farming run is 5 minutes. Yet, D3 farming runs are both boring and long. D3 farming runs are as long or as short as you want them to be. One of the most effective legendary farms is like 5 minutes max. Or you can mix it up and do multiple zones, or you can do a number of other things. Which farm is that? Is it possible to do with shitty items (if not why are you even talking about it)? I haven't played in a while because of the problems I initially described (basically once I beat Inf diablo I was done except on random 30 mins sessions). But, if you cant do said run with items from hell mode, its not a run d2 style. Act 1 fields of misery has the highest legendary drops per hour (with people getting ~11+/hour) once you figure out a good route. Higher MP = more drops so do it at the highest MP that is efficient. You can do anything in MP0 inferno with hell items easily (but MP1 is ideal as it boosts all monsters to max level). MP scaling fixed the entire issue of inferno being too hard from hell to inferno. Fields of misery even feels a bit like doing a cow level run in D2 Do people just run fields of misery and thats it? Or do they go anywhere else for NV stacks?
NV is almost irrelevant when you play mp10 with a P100 character. For lower MPs/paragon, Festering Woods grants ~4NV in a few minutes.
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On August 29 2013 06:55 dmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 00:50 crms wrote:
i like a lot of these suggestions but itemization and character development are by far the most important issues. paragon system 2.0 is a nice baby step but the items and character interaction needs an overhaul.
while the writing is harsh and I wish better written and a bit more comprehensive, this 'info-graph' highlights the major issue with D2 vs D3 loot itemization. While doing my re-play of Diablo 2 this week, I've run Nightmare Meph about 10-15 times and found ~12 uniques (legendaries). Including some nice niche uniques that are great for certain builds on other classes. Stuff like that just doesn't happen in D3. It won't happen because you'll never spend 15-20m doing quick boss runs to obtain ~12 legendaries, and the legendaries you would find in ACT3NM wouldn't be worth IDing. When characters have no depth of customization, the items are boring and undesirable.
I think there are 2 separate issues that this infographic is trying to pass off as one. The stat allocation issue is completely separate to the diversity of gear issue. If you couldn't allocate stats in D2, the exact same gear would still be desirable to the exact same builds (the only difference being the number of str/dex charms required to equip it). Character stat allocation did absolutely nothing for gear diversity; having unusual and gamechanging affixes is what did it. As for what makes gear "interesting", every single item from D2 that I would call "interesting" has one thing in common: they grant unique spells that are normally locked to one class. Whether that be Enigma, Andy's visage, Insight, Passion, Chaos, Atma's scarab, Demon Limb, Wolfhowl, etc. Yes, there are other powerful items like BotD, but there is nothing interesting about BotD other than it being really really powerful. These items were interesting because they let you make (effectively) cross-class hybrids. They did nothing for itemisation - maybe you aimed for a different IAS breakpoint but that was really it. Some of them changed nothing at all about how you build or played your char (2x CTA in alt weapons anyone?). I don't think these are an answer to "the loot problem" - you get a few interesting items, but you won't really add any depth to gearing. And I think that is my problem with analyses like the one in that image. D2 had a lot of pieces of gear which were interesting in isolation (all of them added after LoD, and almost all of those added in 1.10 or beyond when LoD had already been out for years). But they didn't make building a gear set interesting, because by and large it wasn't. What it came down to was meeting some caps (resist all and IAS, and IAS was almost entirely based on weapon IAS so the rest of your gear hardly mattered) and calling it a day. Yes you could stack different things, like going for pure weapon speed (enchantress, firebear, tesladin), stacking CB, stacking DS, whatever. But none of those things really changed anything about how you played the char, or how combat felt. They were just generic DPS increasing affixes that happened to use different mechanics. They were (to use the phrase in the infographic) toast. I think Blizz needs to be very careful, because if they give in and just give D2 patch 1.10-style loot in D3, we might have fun initially until the clear cookie cutter builds come out, and then we will be in the exact same situation as we are now, where after you decide you are going Monk + claw that lets you use whirlwind, the gearing is just as uninteresting as it is today (and as it was in D2).
I'm sorry, but I disagree with this.
Creating your build in D2 was more than a matter of just meeting a cap or two and call it a day.
You had actual choices and liberties, and having the legendaries as know entities helped planning greatly.
I spend much more time planning any character, figuring out how much defence I could trade in for offence, if I could justify squeezing in quality of life items, such as the ones that greatly increase run speed, and when I finally build my Enigma, I had a blast trying to fit it on as many characters as I could manage.
This sort of planning doesn't come into D3, where your next goal is always more of X.
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Lets look at the popular BvC build for example to illustrate the depth of itemization for D2.
Rings
2 fcr rings for sorcs necs
2 ravens for ar and cannot be frozen i.e. druids
2 angelic rings for increased AR, i.e BvB, smiters
Gloves
Trangs for fcr for sorcs and necs
Dracs for lifetap for pallys
Bloodfists for fhr for pallys, druids
Belt
Arach for necs sorcs
Dungoes for pallys druids zons
Weapon switch
2 x Dooms for pallys, zons
2 x Warcry swords for team fights
1x widowmaker for hdins
1 x Shield for block
1 x Demon limb for increased ar and fire dmge
Helm
- Arreats for dmge
- Coa for def against druids, pallys and zons
etc.
In D3, if the gear you are using is the best for current situation, the chances are, it will be the best for 99% of the other situation.
Whereas in D2 it wasn't uncommon to see regular gear switches, something you rarely see/need in D3 because the item upgrades are so 1 dimensional.
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On August 29 2013 18:14 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 06:55 dmfg wrote:On August 29 2013 00:50 crms wrote:
i like a lot of these suggestions but itemization and character development are by far the most important issues. paragon system 2.0 is a nice baby step but the items and character interaction needs an overhaul.
while the writing is harsh and I wish better written and a bit more comprehensive, this 'info-graph' highlights the major issue with D2 vs D3 loot itemization. While doing my re-play of Diablo 2 this week, I've run Nightmare Meph about 10-15 times and found ~12 uniques (legendaries). Including some nice niche uniques that are great for certain builds on other classes. Stuff like that just doesn't happen in D3. It won't happen because you'll never spend 15-20m doing quick boss runs to obtain ~12 legendaries, and the legendaries you would find in ACT3NM wouldn't be worth IDing. When characters have no depth of customization, the items are boring and undesirable.
I think there are 2 separate issues that this infographic is trying to pass off as one. The stat allocation issue is completely separate to the diversity of gear issue. If you couldn't allocate stats in D2, the exact same gear would still be desirable to the exact same builds (the only difference being the number of str/dex charms required to equip it). Character stat allocation did absolutely nothing for gear diversity; having unusual and gamechanging affixes is what did it. As for what makes gear "interesting", every single item from D2 that I would call "interesting" has one thing in common: they grant unique spells that are normally locked to one class. Whether that be Enigma, Andy's visage, Insight, Passion, Chaos, Atma's scarab, Demon Limb, Wolfhowl, etc. Yes, there are other powerful items like BotD, but there is nothing interesting about BotD other than it being really really powerful. These items were interesting because they let you make (effectively) cross-class hybrids. They did nothing for itemisation - maybe you aimed for a different IAS breakpoint but that was really it. Some of them changed nothing at all about how you build or played your char (2x CTA in alt weapons anyone?). I don't think these are an answer to "the loot problem" - you get a few interesting items, but you won't really add any depth to gearing. And I think that is my problem with analyses like the one in that image. D2 had a lot of pieces of gear which were interesting in isolation (all of them added after LoD, and almost all of those added in 1.10 or beyond when LoD had already been out for years). But they didn't make building a gear set interesting, because by and large it wasn't. What it came down to was meeting some caps (resist all and IAS, and IAS was almost entirely based on weapon IAS so the rest of your gear hardly mattered) and calling it a day. Yes you could stack different things, like going for pure weapon speed (enchantress, firebear, tesladin), stacking CB, stacking DS, whatever. But none of those things really changed anything about how you played the char, or how combat felt. They were just generic DPS increasing affixes that happened to use different mechanics. They were (to use the phrase in the infographic) toast. I think Blizz needs to be very careful, because if they give in and just give D2 patch 1.10-style loot in D3, we might have fun initially until the clear cookie cutter builds come out, and then we will be in the exact same situation as we are now, where after you decide you are going Monk + claw that lets you use whirlwind, the gearing is just as uninteresting as it is today (and as it was in D2). I'm sorry, but I disagree with this. Creating your build in D2 was more than a matter of just meeting a cap or two and call it a day. You had actual choices and liberties, and having the legendaries as know entities helped planning greatly. I spend much more time planning any character, figuring out how much defence I could trade in for offence, if I could justify squeezing in quality of life items, such as the ones that greatly increase run speed, and when I finally build my Enigma, I had a blast trying to fit it on as many characters as I could manage. This sort of planning doesn't come into D3, where your next goal is always more of X.
It's fine to say "actual choices and liberties" and "how much defence I could trade in for offence", but it would be nice to list specific examples rather than general sweeping statements. Then we could see if these were actually interesting choices, and more importantly if it's something that could be brought into D3. I doubt you mean stats as (excluding some specific BvB builds) no one would sac 450 vitality for a 5% increase in damage or whatever it worked out to.
Enigma wasn't hard to "fit on" any character. Anyone who isn't already a sorc is massively improved by the addition of teleport, regardless of the class.
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On August 29 2013 20:36 dmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:14 SixStrings wrote:On August 29 2013 06:55 dmfg wrote:On August 29 2013 00:50 crms wrote:
i like a lot of these suggestions but itemization and character development are by far the most important issues. paragon system 2.0 is a nice baby step but the items and character interaction needs an overhaul.
while the writing is harsh and I wish better written and a bit more comprehensive, this 'info-graph' highlights the major issue with D2 vs D3 loot itemization. While doing my re-play of Diablo 2 this week, I've run Nightmare Meph about 10-15 times and found ~12 uniques (legendaries). Including some nice niche uniques that are great for certain builds on other classes. Stuff like that just doesn't happen in D3. It won't happen because you'll never spend 15-20m doing quick boss runs to obtain ~12 legendaries, and the legendaries you would find in ACT3NM wouldn't be worth IDing. When characters have no depth of customization, the items are boring and undesirable.
I think there are 2 separate issues that this infographic is trying to pass off as one. The stat allocation issue is completely separate to the diversity of gear issue. If you couldn't allocate stats in D2, the exact same gear would still be desirable to the exact same builds (the only difference being the number of str/dex charms required to equip it). Character stat allocation did absolutely nothing for gear diversity; having unusual and gamechanging affixes is what did it. As for what makes gear "interesting", every single item from D2 that I would call "interesting" has one thing in common: they grant unique spells that are normally locked to one class. Whether that be Enigma, Andy's visage, Insight, Passion, Chaos, Atma's scarab, Demon Limb, Wolfhowl, etc. Yes, there are other powerful items like BotD, but there is nothing interesting about BotD other than it being really really powerful. These items were interesting because they let you make (effectively) cross-class hybrids. They did nothing for itemisation - maybe you aimed for a different IAS breakpoint but that was really it. Some of them changed nothing at all about how you build or played your char (2x CTA in alt weapons anyone?). I don't think these are an answer to "the loot problem" - you get a few interesting items, but you won't really add any depth to gearing. And I think that is my problem with analyses like the one in that image. D2 had a lot of pieces of gear which were interesting in isolation (all of them added after LoD, and almost all of those added in 1.10 or beyond when LoD had already been out for years). But they didn't make building a gear set interesting, because by and large it wasn't. What it came down to was meeting some caps (resist all and IAS, and IAS was almost entirely based on weapon IAS so the rest of your gear hardly mattered) and calling it a day. Yes you could stack different things, like going for pure weapon speed (enchantress, firebear, tesladin), stacking CB, stacking DS, whatever. But none of those things really changed anything about how you played the char, or how combat felt. They were just generic DPS increasing affixes that happened to use different mechanics. They were (to use the phrase in the infographic) toast. I think Blizz needs to be very careful, because if they give in and just give D2 patch 1.10-style loot in D3, we might have fun initially until the clear cookie cutter builds come out, and then we will be in the exact same situation as we are now, where after you decide you are going Monk + claw that lets you use whirlwind, the gearing is just as uninteresting as it is today (and as it was in D2). I'm sorry, but I disagree with this. Creating your build in D2 was more than a matter of just meeting a cap or two and call it a day. You had actual choices and liberties, and having the legendaries as know entities helped planning greatly. I spend much more time planning any character, figuring out how much defence I could trade in for offence, if I could justify squeezing in quality of life items, such as the ones that greatly increase run speed, and when I finally build my Enigma, I had a blast trying to fit it on as many characters as I could manage. This sort of planning doesn't come into D3, where your next goal is always more of X. It's fine to say "actual choices and liberties" and "how much defence I could trade in for offence", but it would be nice to list specific examples rather than general sweeping statements. Then we could see if these were actually interesting choices, and more importantly if it's something that could be brought into D3. I doubt you mean stats as (excluding some specific BvB builds) no one would sac 450 vitality for a 5% increase in damage or whatever it worked out to. Enigma wasn't hard to "fit on" any character. Anyone who isn't already a sorc is massively improved by the addition of teleport, regardless of the class.
fearus, all the stuff you listed is PvP stuff designed for specific opponents. Isn't this more a symptom of the (lack of) PvP situation in D3 rather than/in addition to itemisation?
If PvP was more popular, with a smaller number of popular and powerful builds, might we see people building specific sets as a result (e.g. resist X)?
EDIT: Oops, meant to edit my previous post
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On August 29 2013 20:40 dmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 20:36 dmfg wrote:On August 29 2013 18:14 SixStrings wrote:On August 29 2013 06:55 dmfg wrote:On August 29 2013 00:50 crms wrote:
i like a lot of these suggestions but itemization and character development are by far the most important issues. paragon system 2.0 is a nice baby step but the items and character interaction needs an overhaul.
while the writing is harsh and I wish better written and a bit more comprehensive, this 'info-graph' highlights the major issue with D2 vs D3 loot itemization. While doing my re-play of Diablo 2 this week, I've run Nightmare Meph about 10-15 times and found ~12 uniques (legendaries). Including some nice niche uniques that are great for certain builds on other classes. Stuff like that just doesn't happen in D3. It won't happen because you'll never spend 15-20m doing quick boss runs to obtain ~12 legendaries, and the legendaries you would find in ACT3NM wouldn't be worth IDing. When characters have no depth of customization, the items are boring and undesirable.
I think there are 2 separate issues that this infographic is trying to pass off as one. The stat allocation issue is completely separate to the diversity of gear issue. If you couldn't allocate stats in D2, the exact same gear would still be desirable to the exact same builds (the only difference being the number of str/dex charms required to equip it). Character stat allocation did absolutely nothing for gear diversity; having unusual and gamechanging affixes is what did it. As for what makes gear "interesting", every single item from D2 that I would call "interesting" has one thing in common: they grant unique spells that are normally locked to one class. Whether that be Enigma, Andy's visage, Insight, Passion, Chaos, Atma's scarab, Demon Limb, Wolfhowl, etc. Yes, there are other powerful items like BotD, but there is nothing interesting about BotD other than it being really really powerful. These items were interesting because they let you make (effectively) cross-class hybrids. They did nothing for itemisation - maybe you aimed for a different IAS breakpoint but that was really it. Some of them changed nothing at all about how you build or played your char (2x CTA in alt weapons anyone?). I don't think these are an answer to "the loot problem" - you get a few interesting items, but you won't really add any depth to gearing. And I think that is my problem with analyses like the one in that image. D2 had a lot of pieces of gear which were interesting in isolation (all of them added after LoD, and almost all of those added in 1.10 or beyond when LoD had already been out for years). But they didn't make building a gear set interesting, because by and large it wasn't. What it came down to was meeting some caps (resist all and IAS, and IAS was almost entirely based on weapon IAS so the rest of your gear hardly mattered) and calling it a day. Yes you could stack different things, like going for pure weapon speed (enchantress, firebear, tesladin), stacking CB, stacking DS, whatever. But none of those things really changed anything about how you played the char, or how combat felt. They were just generic DPS increasing affixes that happened to use different mechanics. They were (to use the phrase in the infographic) toast. I think Blizz needs to be very careful, because if they give in and just give D2 patch 1.10-style loot in D3, we might have fun initially until the clear cookie cutter builds come out, and then we will be in the exact same situation as we are now, where after you decide you are going Monk + claw that lets you use whirlwind, the gearing is just as uninteresting as it is today (and as it was in D2). I'm sorry, but I disagree with this. Creating your build in D2 was more than a matter of just meeting a cap or two and call it a day. You had actual choices and liberties, and having the legendaries as know entities helped planning greatly. I spend much more time planning any character, figuring out how much defence I could trade in for offence, if I could justify squeezing in quality of life items, such as the ones that greatly increase run speed, and when I finally build my Enigma, I had a blast trying to fit it on as many characters as I could manage. This sort of planning doesn't come into D3, where your next goal is always more of X. It's fine to say "actual choices and liberties" and "how much defence I could trade in for offence", but it would be nice to list specific examples rather than general sweeping statements. Then we could see if these were actually interesting choices, and more importantly if it's something that could be brought into D3. I doubt you mean stats as (excluding some specific BvB builds) no one would sac 450 vitality for a 5% increase in damage or whatever it worked out to. Enigma wasn't hard to "fit on" any character. Anyone who isn't already a sorc is massively improved by the addition of teleport, regardless of the class. fearus, all the stuff you listed is PvP stuff designed for specific opponents. Isn't this more a symptom of the (lack of) PvP situation in D3 rather than/in addition to itemisation? If PvP was more popular, with a smaller number of popular and powerful builds, might we see people building specific sets as a result (e.g. resist X)? EDIT: Oops, meant to edit my previous post
i agree. for example, almost all wd skills do either poison or physical damage. so stacking these two res against wds would be viable.
in general, i agree that a lot is wrong with itemization and endgame in d3. but on the other hand, i dont think d2 was thaaaat much better in this regard. when playing d2 as hardcore as i did, it also got pretty boring pretty quickly. i absolutely do not think that "make d3 like d2" would solve the issues. (particularly some nonsense suggestions that get mixed in, like "the max level should be 99, not 100". yeah, thats gonna help....)
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On August 29 2013 20:40 dmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 20:36 dmfg wrote:On August 29 2013 18:14 SixStrings wrote:On August 29 2013 06:55 dmfg wrote:On August 29 2013 00:50 crms wrote:
i like a lot of these suggestions but itemization and character development are by far the most important issues. paragon system 2.0 is a nice baby step but the items and character interaction needs an overhaul.
while the writing is harsh and I wish better written and a bit more comprehensive, this 'info-graph' highlights the major issue with D2 vs D3 loot itemization. While doing my re-play of Diablo 2 this week, I've run Nightmare Meph about 10-15 times and found ~12 uniques (legendaries). Including some nice niche uniques that are great for certain builds on other classes. Stuff like that just doesn't happen in D3. It won't happen because you'll never spend 15-20m doing quick boss runs to obtain ~12 legendaries, and the legendaries you would find in ACT3NM wouldn't be worth IDing. When characters have no depth of customization, the items are boring and undesirable.
I think there are 2 separate issues that this infographic is trying to pass off as one. The stat allocation issue is completely separate to the diversity of gear issue. If you couldn't allocate stats in D2, the exact same gear would still be desirable to the exact same builds (the only difference being the number of str/dex charms required to equip it). Character stat allocation did absolutely nothing for gear diversity; having unusual and gamechanging affixes is what did it. As for what makes gear "interesting", every single item from D2 that I would call "interesting" has one thing in common: they grant unique spells that are normally locked to one class. Whether that be Enigma, Andy's visage, Insight, Passion, Chaos, Atma's scarab, Demon Limb, Wolfhowl, etc. Yes, there are other powerful items like BotD, but there is nothing interesting about BotD other than it being really really powerful. These items were interesting because they let you make (effectively) cross-class hybrids. They did nothing for itemisation - maybe you aimed for a different IAS breakpoint but that was really it. Some of them changed nothing at all about how you build or played your char (2x CTA in alt weapons anyone?). I don't think these are an answer to "the loot problem" - you get a few interesting items, but you won't really add any depth to gearing. And I think that is my problem with analyses like the one in that image. D2 had a lot of pieces of gear which were interesting in isolation (all of them added after LoD, and almost all of those added in 1.10 or beyond when LoD had already been out for years). But they didn't make building a gear set interesting, because by and large it wasn't. What it came down to was meeting some caps (resist all and IAS, and IAS was almost entirely based on weapon IAS so the rest of your gear hardly mattered) and calling it a day. Yes you could stack different things, like going for pure weapon speed (enchantress, firebear, tesladin), stacking CB, stacking DS, whatever. But none of those things really changed anything about how you played the char, or how combat felt. They were just generic DPS increasing affixes that happened to use different mechanics. They were (to use the phrase in the infographic) toast. I think Blizz needs to be very careful, because if they give in and just give D2 patch 1.10-style loot in D3, we might have fun initially until the clear cookie cutter builds come out, and then we will be in the exact same situation as we are now, where after you decide you are going Monk + claw that lets you use whirlwind, the gearing is just as uninteresting as it is today (and as it was in D2). I'm sorry, but I disagree with this. Creating your build in D2 was more than a matter of just meeting a cap or two and call it a day. You had actual choices and liberties, and having the legendaries as know entities helped planning greatly. I spend much more time planning any character, figuring out how much defence I could trade in for offence, if I could justify squeezing in quality of life items, such as the ones that greatly increase run speed, and when I finally build my Enigma, I had a blast trying to fit it on as many characters as I could manage. This sort of planning doesn't come into D3, where your next goal is always more of X. It's fine to say "actual choices and liberties" and "how much defence I could trade in for offence", but it would be nice to list specific examples rather than general sweeping statements. Then we could see if these were actually interesting choices, and more importantly if it's something that could be brought into D3. I doubt you mean stats as (excluding some specific BvB builds) no one would sac 450 vitality for a 5% increase in damage or whatever it worked out to. Enigma wasn't hard to "fit on" any character. Anyone who isn't already a sorc is massively improved by the addition of teleport, regardless of the class. fearus, all the stuff you listed is PvP stuff designed for specific opponents. Isn't this more a symptom of the (lack of) PvP situation in D3 rather than/in addition to itemisation? If PvP was more popular, with a smaller number of popular and powerful builds, might we see people building specific sets as a result (e.g. resist X)? EDIT: Oops, meant to edit my previous post
PvP was the end game and the apex of D2 game and item design. I bring this up because looking at D2 from a PvM perspective, would be like a casual player who plays Starcraft single player campaign and think that was all to game.
The most in-depth analysis of the game and itemisation was for PvP - before frame rates became public knowledge, the PvPers was already recording animations on video and counting the actual frames to figure out the ias/fcr/fhr breakpoints. Not to mention the top-tier D2 players were the PvPer - in terms of time spend, item wealth and knowledge of the game.
When Windforces were selling for 500$ on ebay - it wasn't for PvM. Itemisation for D2 in PvM is trivial. Necromancers could finish hell 8 player completely naked and Hammerdins were hands down the best PvM build.
PvP characters was where items, stats points, skill points - reached for perfection.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZL8Qoo2.jpg)
