EPT[Update] choyafOu penalized by GomTV for ladder abuse - Pa…
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Ptur
Ukraine85 Posts
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Falling
Canada11607 Posts
Immediately, I thought of this link from Guybrush's BW histories: http://web.archive.org/web/20011122033813/broodwar.com/comments/index.ihtml?id=1966 This is not a good start however 'funny' or 'lame scandal' this may be. We really don't want to go down this road. On January 13 2011 23:44 Soap wrote: It's that if Blizzard introduces a dumb system (hidden rating) the players have the right to play it as they wish, as long as within the rules. Winning by the opponent leaving is within the rules. I'm pretty sure the reason why the rating system is hidden was specifically so that people couldn't game the system. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
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Google.
Germany50 Posts
Hence, in this case, I'd solely blame the system and not the players exploiting it. A system where losing 3 out of 4 games will bring you ahead, is something none of us really want, I guess. Fortunately, it's only a temporary issue. However, I don't get why points for Master-League players are set to such a low value in the first place. Maybe it is inteltionally to keep smurfs out of the high master league positions but aprt form that I have no valid explanation | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
This is cheating; plain and simple. Cheating, in my opinion, is wrong and shouldn't be encouraged no matter how funny or pointless or harmless it may seem. This is abuse of the ladder system and that's wrong. It is impossible to create a perfect system with no loopholes. There will always be opportunities for abuse and there will always be idiots who want to use those loopholes. Blame Blizzard for making a shitty system, sure, but also blame the idiots for abusing that system, as well. I can find no justification for abusing the ladder system. @Google: What do you mean by this is only a temporary issue? | ||
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hoopaholik91
United States30 Posts
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On January 14 2011 05:18 hoopaholik91 wrote: Yeah I don't know why everybody cares, this is just pushing him up to the top of the ladder momentarily while his MMR drops. There is no benefit to playing extra games once your bonus pool is gone, because your displayed points will always move closer to your MMR. Since he is losing half of his games, most likely against people who have a lower MMR than him, he will be losing MMR points, and is only getting the +20 -5 because his Master's league points are nowhere near his MMR since everybody starts with the same points. Exactly why it's being called temporary. People's points are still settling to where they need to be. And yeah he probably is screwing over his MMR. | ||
]343[
United States10328 Posts
1) "This is not abusing." a) The opponents agree to it. Rebuttal: Well of course they'll agree to it--both players are taking advantage of the system to get a net gain of points without playing any games. This doesn't change the fact that they are obtaining rating points in ways that they were not meant to. b) You can decide to win points however you want. Rebuttal: The point of the ladder is for you to obtain a rating based on your skill. Abusing goes against this purpose. We've seen abuse on the ladder in early BW tournaments and in the TSL. If you don't see anything wrong with that, then maybe you shouldn't play any games on the ladder in the future. c) "He's covering up his match history." Rebuttal: This doesn't mean you can have BNet record rated games for you that you don't actually play. If anything just both go some dumb strategy every game (a la Idra's comment lol.) 2) "This abuse doesn't have any bearing on anything." In choya's case, this doesn't matter since he is already Code S. Moreover, the Master League reset means his rating is well below his MMR, and he would like to regain it. ("This abusing has no effect.") Rebuttal: Abusing the ladder in this way can only set a bad precedent for others, possibly leading to similar types of abuse in situations where it does matter (e.g. two people purposely splitting games to increase each other's ratings in order to qualify for a tournament), since ladder ranking does sometimes matter. | ||
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Justanx
United States240 Posts
"You Know What I'm Saying" | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
Seriously no more bonus pool, no more hidden ratings, we want to see our real ratings. | ||
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crbox
Canada1181 Posts
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HunterStarcraft
Canada249 Posts
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HwangjaeTerran
Finland5967 Posts
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TheNessman
United States4158 Posts
Edit: However reading some posts i am starting to see the greater problem here... the ladder system. Isn't this another reason to reset ladder rankings? | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
I want to bring up a different but related example. In chess, players receive a rating based on their performance. You can immediately estimate two players relative skill simply by examining their relative ratings. This is great, you can estimate your skill. To practice, clubs have in house tournaments and there are plenty of open tournaments which players can compete in monthly, however, there is a problem that used to exist. Players would play in in house tournaments and intentionally lose in order to lower their rating for an upcoming tournament and then sign up for the tournament in a lower bracket which greatly increased their chance of winning a prize. So how did they solve this? They changed it so that the brackets were based on your highest achieved rating. So let's say you kept your highest rating at 1550 in order to qualify and win for a U 1600 tournament. You might win this tournament, but in the process your rating would jump to 1650 and no longer be able to qualify for the tournament even if you lost. In chess, people play for fun, to win tounaments and to improve their rating. Sometimes chess does have a problem of motivating players to play since they could lose rating, but people don't play chess to have a rating. Starcraft 2 however relies on this system. They try to encourage people to play by offering them points and points are eventually accumulated until you have enough games to match your hidden rating. This system rewards playing a ton of ladder games and having a high mmr. If you already have a high mmr and the system constantly puts you against evenly matched players, then the points reward is only achieved by massing games. If people in chess could get a higher rating simply by drawing every game, they would do so every time, no one would play any games. In chess there is no reward like that since you get 0 points for drawing against someone even. In premiere league football you only get 1 point for a draw, whereas if you try for a win you will average 1.5 points. The sc2 ladder system is severely flawed. The system would be fine if they implemented a few changes. 1. Cut the bonus pool by 50-75%. 2. Change the system so that your points = hidden rating - bonus points unused. This would mean that you could only mass a very small number of games (like 25 max) and that the ladder would be a better reflection of skill. Even halo 3 uses ladder system, a fps game, uses a better rating system than sc2. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On January 14 2011 06:05 TheNessman wrote: yeah... i'm surprised at how little is being done about this, seeing as what happened last time someone cheated in the ladder in Tsl2.... :/ Edit: However reading some posts i am starting to see the greater problem here... the ladder system. Isn't this another reason to reset ladder rankings? If they reset ladder rankings then the only difference is the number of games they would have to play to reach their peak. Anyone who doesn't win trade would be automatically lower on the ladder. | ||
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creamwolf
United States48 Posts
On January 13 2011 17:25 Plexa wrote: What is the point in this? What does he stand to gain from getting high in the ladder when he's already a Code S player? portraits. | ||
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Eurekastreet
1308 Posts
I mean, if for each opponent you gotta explain you're going "rock paper scissor" or whatever, the time it takes for you to explain that !"#¤, check that the opponent agrees, and event if he says he does doublecheck that he aint playing a standard game etc....would probably take as much time to double proxy gate every opponent on every map, with pbbly the same success rate (pbbly more since the guy got some skills). I mean rock paper scissors, its a 50/50 thing isn't it? Who goes on top of the ladder with a 50% win rate ? The guy must have been reaaaaaallly bored.... | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On January 14 2011 06:25 Eurekastreet wrote: What I don't understand is, if you wanna go up in ladder quickly, why choose that method ? I mean, if for each opponent you gotta explain you're going "rock paper scissor" or whatever, the time it takes for you to explain that !"#¤, check that the opponent agrees, and event if he says he does doublecheck that he aint playing a standard game etc....would probably take as much time to double proxy gate every opponent on every map, with pbbly the same success rate (pbbly more since the guy got some skills). I mean rock paper scissors, its a 50/50 thing isn't it? Who goes on top of the ladder with a 50% win rate ? The guy must have been reaaaaaallly bored.... The reason it works is because the matchmaking system matches you against people of similar skill ie those whom the system expects you to win against 50% of the time anyway. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On January 14 2011 04:58 Falling wrote: So the abuse starts already. Sure it might seem funny for choya because he's already in Code S, but it doesn't set the standard very high for anyone else. Particularly as they're starting to use ladder results to determine B Leagues. Immediately, I thought of this link from Guybrush's BW histories: http://web.archive.org/web/20011122033813/broodwar.com/comments/index.ihtml?id=1966 This is not a good start however 'funny' or 'lame scandal' this may be. We really don't want to go down this road. I'm pretty sure the reason why the rating system is hidden was specifically so that people couldn't game the system. The rating system is hidden so you can feel good about yourself as you gain points by playing a ton of games. | ||
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