|
Now GSL Code S progamer 'choyafOu' is center of rock-paper-scissors scandal.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/agMXQ.jpg)
On Battle.net ladder matches, he paused the matchs as soon as it started, then suggested opponent to decide winner by rock-paper-scissors. According to choyafOu's match history, he gained over 20 points when he won but lost only 2 points when he lost. With this ladder point system, playing many matches as possible is good. Of course, some of his recent matches had very short playing time like less than a minute. choyafOu is not the only progamer who did this thing.
choyafOu and his coach InsomniafOu admitted this and apologized on PlayXP.
UPDATED 1 on 16:24 KST
GSL accnounced disciplinary action for choyafOu.
Reason: Ladder abusing(confirmed that was not for his ladder point)
Disciplinary action: 1. Disqualified from entering GSTL on Feb 2. Disqualified from entering GSL if he do this again.
Expiration date: 2011 12 31
Link: http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=2&msgid=5788&p=1
UPDATED 2 on 19:46 KST
Jung-Won Chae, the director of Gretech E-Sports Operations and GSL commentator, personally commented to progamers: "Think before you act"
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/UTP83.jpg)
Plexa(Administrator) added below quote
On January 13 2011 17:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser. Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house? What if it is used to get into Code B qualifiers? What if it is used to get into Blizzcon (Blizzard picked Huk and Select from the ladder)? Don't let it come to a situation where you need to judge someones motivation on why he abused the ladder. You will never be able to prove it. Now I'm not asking you to think Choya is evil because realistically this is relatively innocent. But don't say who cares or what does ladder even matter, because next time it happens and it does have influence on a bigger event you will have to bite your tongue. And you will realize that the attitude of saying ladder abuse is fine because it doesn't matter is what caused all the larger problems to begin. If Blizzard is smart they give him some sort of penalty to let everyone know this is simply not allowed. If they don't it's giving people permission to do the same in preparation for their Code B qualifiers.
UPDATE
1. GSL accnounced disciplinary action for choyafOu.
2. Jung-Won Chae's comment.
|
Australia8532 Posts
Lol this is hilarious.. Seriously though - choya probably thought people were catching onto his cheese  /jokes
|
I love that the word scandal is used. Now, admittedly ladder rank matters a little, but Choya is already code S so it can't matter for anything that I can think of.
|
SC2 is rock-paper-scissors in 3D anyway. Looks like choyafOu just wanted to drop all pretensions SC2 is anything else.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
What is the point in this? What does he stand to gain from getting high in the ladder when he's already a Code S player?
|
Why does this matter and why is it a scandal?
He offered so they agreed and accepted, they were at liberty to decline him and play out the game normally...
|
For some reason I find it extremely funny. I also think he did it for fun
|
How does this have anything to do with the GSL? Do they care if he randomly gives/gets free wins on the bnet ladder?
|
yeah, don't think it's a big deal since he's code S
|
I don't quite follow, so I am sorry if I am missing something obvious. But doesn't this only hurt choyafOu in the sense he is wasting valuable practice time? I didn't know that the GSL cared about the ladder point system. I thought everything was based off of in-house qualifiers. The only tournaments this could effect would be the Blizzard Ladder Invitationals (Isn't there a tournament in the works based on Ladder performance?) and perhaps the odd private tournaments that may be based on league standing.
Again, sorry if I am missing something. Is the scandal just a public relations bump?
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Oh perhaps he did it trying to cover up his match history? idk.
|
Don't see how this even matters lol
|
On January 13 2011 17:25 Plexa wrote:
What is the point in this? What does he stand to gain from getting high in the ladder when he's already a Code S player?
That's why I use the word 'Scandal'
|
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
|
So why should I care? If two random people want to flip a coin for the win, fine by me. He'll probably have a worse win/loss percentage but accumulate points faster.
|
What's the difference? Who's to tell Choya how to play anyway? The other people he's playing against are just as guilty if they accept aren't they? So what are they gonna do, ban everyone who accepts his little game also? How silly...
|
i dont see why this should be a scandal?? who gives a fuck what he does with his ladder account.. someone notified this problem to gsl staff?? most ridiculous thing ever.. every bs gets hyped and called a big big scandal..
|
Even if this is not choyafOu, people can abuse the system to get into master's league with +20 points for a win and only -5 for a loss. Given you can do this faster than playing legitimate games per hour, ++++more points
|
How on Earth is this a scandal? Can't see why he would need to apologize.
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
I lol'd...
|
Dang, time to do this on NA ladder man ty for the tip
|
Durr, let him do whatever he wants on ladder, who cares, right?
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
Lol, that pretty much hits the nail on the head.
|
Why does this matter? Sure it might be "cheating the system" but it doesn't affect his GSL standing and ladder doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things anyway...
I'm sorry. This is at the very least hilariously eclectic, but I fail to see how it can affect his GSL performance.
|
How do you play rock, paper, scissors over the internet?
|
|
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
haha greg back with the 1 liners.. Love it 
|
How did they know what they person had?
Choya:... I got paper
Opp: ooh i got scissors.
Choya: bullshit you did you liar!
Isn't mmr supposed to stop this? I don't get how he's causing the point's differences. His mmr surely is at a point where he should gain and lose points equally.
|
I also have to ask why this would ever matter. These days ladder rating is basically a representation of how big your sc2-epeen is and has no effect on anything serious. Despite this, the fact that the coach commented suggests that maybe sponsors look at rating or something, because if it was one player doing something silly to inflate his rating I don't think anyone would care.
|
I think he was trying to be sarcastic and criticize SCII, claiming it's nothing more than rock-paper-scissors in his own way.
|
is this thing a bug btw. I saw this happened to Tyler also when he will get +20 but only lose 2.
I thought thats because he has been inactive on ladder but afaik choya has been very active.
|
A win rate of 50% won't get him very high on the ladder. Anyway it seems like he was just having some fun so let him.
|
On January 13 2011 17:35 Eluadyl wrote:
I think he was trying to be sarcastic and criticize SCII, claiming it's nothing more than rock-paper-scissors in his own way.
You're reading way too much into it.
|
very many players are involved in this "scandal". For example every zerg who faces ZvZ on the korean ladder... Ban them all :D...
Btw the matchmaking should give you a 50% win rate, so does rock paper scissors. The games are independent and have expectation 1 ( if you change the points a bit ...). This means it"s a martingale. Therefore a fair game :D.
|
Why this is problem? Since when ladder means anything? wtf? Why would they say "sorry" for no reason, i dont get it.
|
Ladder Ranking based tournaments
blizzcon invitationals are run off ladder (huge prize pool + free tip)
upcoming GSL's have top of ladder tournaments
etc
|
I remember seeing cella do this on stream once, was hilarious.
I approve.
|
Just a quick and efficient way to get his displayed rating up to his hidden rating (MMR), because of the master leauge reset. And it looks like it worked, he is #1 on KR ladder at the moment.
It will stop working once his displayed rating reaches his hidden rating. Read Excalibur_Z's thread on how the ladder system works.
Here's a quick rundown:
Let's say he gets promoted to masters and reset to 2400 displayed rating. Meanwhile, we'll say his MMR is 3000. He plays a game against IMNestea who is also 2400 displayed, 3000 MMR (hypothetically).
IMNestea will appear favored to choya and choya will appear favored to IMNestea. This is because the favored system works by comparing your opponents HIDDEN rating to your DISPLAYED rating. Thus:
IMNestea's HIDDEN rating of 3000 > choya's DISPLAYED rating of 2400
and vice versa.
Everyone will be favored to choya (and thus give +20~ and -5~) until his displayed rating catches up to his hidden rating.
Hope that made sense. It's just choya's clever way of skyrocketing to the top of the ladder faster than everyone else. But like I said, it will stop working eventually.
|
It would matter if he were not ranked in the GSL, because qualifiers for Code A are based off of ladder ranking AFAIK.
But they're not, so it doesn't I guess. This probably would cause a bigger stir if it was someone who had dropped off already coughbitbybitprimecough.
|
United Kingdom16710 Posts
Hmmm. Well, it does make you wonder how many other players might be doing this on ladder.
|
On January 13 2011 17:40 Whiladan wrote:
It would matter if he were not ranked in the GSL, because qualifiers for Code A are based off of ladder ranking AFAIK.
But they're not, so it doesn't I guess. This probably would cause a bigger stir if it was someone who had dropped off already coughbitbybitprimecough.
remember when flash was a cheeser? wait and see
|
Not a scandal. Shouldn't even apologize.
This is... hilarious.
|
Why would someone apologize for being smarter?
|
Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser.
Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house?
What if it is used to get into Code B qualifiers?
What if it is used to get into Blizzcon (Blizzard picked Huk and Select from the ladder)?
Don't let it come to a situation where you need to judge someones motivation on why he abused the ladder. You will never be able to prove it.
Now I'm not asking you to think Choya is evil because realistically this is relatively innocent. But don't say who cares or what does ladder even matter, because next time it happens and it does have influence on a bigger event you will have to bite your tongue. And you will realize that the attitude of saying ladder abuse is fine because it doesn't matter is what caused all the larger problems to begin. If Blizzard is smart they give him some sort of penalty to let everyone know this is simply not allowed. If they don't it's giving people permission to do the same in preparation for their Code B qualifiers.
|
On January 13 2011 17:37 Kultfrisur wrote:
very many players are involved in this "scandal". For example every zerg who faces ZvZ on the korean ladder... Ban them all :D...
Btw the matchmaking should give you a 50% win rate, so does rock paper scissors. The games are independent and have expectation 1 ( if you change the points a bit ...). This means it"s a martingale. Therefore a fair game :D.
I might be one of the few who got that joke :D Well player sir.
|
I don't get it, why does he lose only 2 points ? Is is because he quits the game very early ?
|
What I want to know is, how do you play rock paper scissors? Chat hardly works.
I guess something like: let's meet with N workers at some location (can't be a Xel'Naga WT). N=1 means rock, N=2 means paper, N=3 means scissors.
On January 13 2011 17:52 iRRelevance wrote:
I don't get it, why does he lose only 2 points ? Is is because he quits the game very early ?
His points are lagging behind his MMR I believe.
|
Also, you must take into consideration how Koreans look at fair play and sportsmanship. The apology isn't really about 'abusing' the ladder, but how you are perceived as a progamer. Then, there are sponsors behind the teams that will not like news like these...
|
I was going to say something along the lines of 'not very usefull thread' or 'why using the word scandal here?', but Nazgul's point is quite convincing.
So yeah i think Choyah's attitude is was unproper.
Although i'd like to say that he should not get too much flames as other (A/S coded) players might be doing this also without anyone knowing. So i'd try to think on how to prevent this behavior from spreading (ladder rule modification for Master league ?) rather than going like "Choyah's a jerk" (+ I like the guy, he forgot thermal lances against Jinro, that was kind of him  ).
-kerm
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
TL has been boring without you. <3
|
(didn't cella do this a few months ago too anyways?)
|
More importantly, how do you play a game of rock paper scissors online? Example:
Player 1: Rock
Player 2: [looks at rock, and decides to go paper..]
|
On January 13 2011 17:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
More importantly, how do you play a game of rock paper scissors online? Example:
Player 1: Rock
Player 2: [looks at rock, and decides to go paper..]
Probably just an honor system.
|
On January 13 2011 17:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
More importantly, how do you play a game of rock paper scissors online? Example:
Player 1: Rock
Player 2: [looks at rock, and decides to go paper..]
Obviously video chat
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
Ice.
Cold.
Burn.
|
apart from the problem naz pointed out, the scandal with this is rather that it (again) confirms that the ladder system is complete trash and rewards mass gaming more than anything.
|
|
|
He might not even like this game, who knows?
I think this is kind of funny but what Nazgul wrote makes a lot of sense.
How do they even do this?
|
On January 13 2011 17:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser. Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house? What if it is used to get into Code B qualifiers? What if it is used to get into Blizzcon (Blizzard picked Huk and Select from the ladder)? Don't let it come to a situation where you need to judge someones motivation on why he abused the ladder. You will never be able to prove it. Now I'm not asking you to think Choya is evil because realistically this is relatively innocent. But don't say who cares or what does ladder even matter, because next time it happens and it does have influence on a bigger event you will have to bite your tongue. And you will realize that the attitude of saying ladder abuse is fine because it doesn't matter is what caused all the larger problems to begin. If Blizzard is smart they give him some sort of penalty to let everyone know this is simply not allowed. If they don't it's giving people permission to do the same in preparation for their Code B qualifiers.
His enemys also accepted to decide by this system because they were possibly afraid of playing it out vs a GSL S Class gamer. Choya couldnt force them to play by this rules so i dont really get what you are trying to say. He would have won those games anyway most likely or ppl wouldnt agree to let luck decide in the first place.
|
This amuses me more than it should...I mean, isn't it cute that choya cares so much about his rating that he'd cheat on it?
On a more serious note, Nazgul is obviously right 100%, it doesn't matter in the slightest if you deem ladder to be "important", the motivation behind choya's actions doesn't matter, abuse is abuse.
|
Stuff like this hurts the credibility of the the GSL imo. The GSL overall hasn't been all that great. There are questionable players that received Code S or are playing in Code A.. players who make you scratch your head and wonder how they got to where they are. When you find out that one of your better Code S players is cheating to increase his rating, it just puts into doubt how good these players really are and what dedication there is to the game. This incident will probably be a blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things, but if this kind of behavior becomes a repetitive occurrence in the scene, it damages the tournament as well as the game as a whole.
|
United Kingdom38156 Posts
Isn't this kind of point win/loss the same as for everyone else as soon as they get into the masters league, at least until things balance out and they reach their MMR when points won/lost stabilise?
Playing a game with a 50/50 chance for quick win/loss only gets him to his MMR faster and spends his bonus points (it'll also probably negatively impact on his win percentage since I'd imagine he was over 50% before)?
I guess it's kind of gaming the system, but I'd imagine it actually hinders him somewhat in the long run.
|
This is just like getting such a low MMR just to farm sc2 avatars.. just happened to become a "scandal" because of him being an S-Class person. Personally though, I might do this for awhile but it loses the point after that. After all, winning legitly is always the best right?
|
Given that the GSL invites top ladder players for Code A preliminaries, these kind of things should be taken into consideration... Although, it can be said that if you do this kind of thing, you still need skill to get into Code A. But to prevent the system from being abused, I think it might be necessary for Blizzard to penalize players that take the easy way out. How this will be monitored? I don't know... Maybe blizzard can implement some sort of auto analysis report to see anything suspicious. It's definitely something that is important and can be improved.
|
He's helping OTHER PEOPLE get higher ranks by doing this. I only read the first page of this topic, but it seems that people haven't understood this...
Of course he could help people out more by just leaving ALL his games, but that wouldn't be as fair.
One reason to have a high rating though is to ensure that when you're playing on the ladder to practice, you'll be playing the best players. Of course when there's a bug like this going around, they wouldn't really be the best player.
|
On January 13 2011 18:25 CalmDown.Breathe wrote:
Stuff like this hurts the credibility of the the GSL imo. The GSL overall hasn't been all that great. There are questionable players that received Code S or are playing in Code A.. players who make you scratch your head and wonder how they got to where they are. When you find out that one of your better Code S players is cheating to increase his rating, it just puts into doubt how good these players really are and what dedication there is to the game. This incident will probably be a blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things, but if this kind of behavior becomes a repetitive occurrence in the scene, it damages the tournament as well as the game as a whole.
So choya doesn't deserve his Code S? The ladder is pretty random overall anyway. Any Code S player could lose to some ~3k weird Protoss user in a LADDER GAME. On a stage infront of people in a bo3 determines who plays "better". Regardless of this mess I still have no doubts that choya deserves his Code S.
|
Haha this owns. I can't believe that people really leave if they lose. I know I wouldn't. Choya should never stop. Funny shit.
|
Why would you notify the GSL and why is this a scandal? It's not cheating, he's qualified for GSL, no match fixing, just some random fun. Seems legit to me.
Why should he be excluded? If he's good enough so be it (and he certainly is). Also everything that let's you win games, as long as it is legal, may it be any kind of cheese can and why shouldn't be exploited?
|
All I have to say to this thread is what has been spammed at me for the last month.
"Play to win" right?
How he gets his ladder wins is none of your business.
|
lol. this was indeed funny.
|
this guy is just GENIUS!
anyway,we all know points mean nothing ...
|
People abused the Blizzard ladder in 1999 too when it meant something for qualifying for tournaments. But in this case I don't see how choya's ladder points mean anything to anybody.
|
sounds like a nice way to farm portraits
|
worst scandal ever hahhaa
|
i for one am shocked and appalled by this behavior. it really, truly depresses me to the point where i'm starting to see very little meaning in life. first marrow's cheating scandal and now this. do ANY pros have integrity?
|
On January 13 2011 18:33 neppi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:25 CalmDown.Breathe wrote:
Stuff like this hurts the credibility of the the GSL imo. The GSL overall hasn't been all that great. There are questionable players that received Code S or are playing in Code A.. players who make you scratch your head and wonder how they got to where they are. When you find out that one of your better Code S players is cheating to increase his rating, it just puts into doubt how good these players really are and what dedication there is to the game. This incident will probably be a blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things, but if this kind of behavior becomes a repetitive occurrence in the scene, it damages the tournament as well as the game as a whole. So choya doesn't deserve his Code S? The ladder is pretty random overall anyway. Any Code S player could lose to some ~3k weird Protoss user in a LADDER GAME. On a stage infront of people in a bo3 determines who plays "better". Regardless of this mess I still have no doubts that choya deserves his Code S.
I never said he doesn't deserve it. Personally, I think he did. He worked his way through to get where he is. However, in a LARGER sense, looking at the GSL as a whole, there are ramifications in terms of reputation and credibility of participants.
Although the ladder isn't always an accurate measure of skill and performance, it still holds some weight in Korea where the top players of the ladder are regularly seen gaining success in the GSL and tournaments. It also undermines the effort of those who do regularly play on the ladder (i.e. Huk who is doing very well in the ladder and achieved a high rating through effort and hard work). Like Nazgul mentioned earlier, there are benefits that may come along for those with higher ladder ratings in the form of tournament invitations, blizzard rewards, etc etc.
|
This sounds like a good way to get into Blizzcon tournaments ^^
|
has anyone bothered to wonder how you play rock paper scissors via text?
|
On January 13 2011 17:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
More importantly, how do you play a game of rock paper scissors online? Example:
Player 1: Rock
Player 2: [looks at rock, and decides to go paper..]
You play three games at once. If player one types [Paper Rock Paper] and player two types [Rock Paper Scissor], then player two wins
|
choyafOu is not the only progamer who did this thing.
|
In my opinion Blizzard can't really do anything about it, there statement of winning is simple 'If you are the last player to leave the game', so if players leave after losing rock-paper-siccor, how is this wrong?
Ofcourse it should not be possible to get stuff like code B because of this though...
|
On January 13 2011 18:50 Warmyth wrote:
In my opinion Blizzard can't really do anything about it, there statement of winning is simple 'If you are the last player to leave the game', so if players leave after losing rock-paper-siccor, how is this wrong?
Ofcourse it should not be possible to get stuff like code B because of this though...
I doubt this is true. If they didn't have additional rules beyond this it would imply maphacking is fine as well. There's obviously more to their rules that just being the last to leave the game.
|
On January 13 2011 18:53 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:50 Warmyth wrote:
In my opinion Blizzard can't really do anything about it, there statement of winning is simple 'If you are the last player to leave the game', so if players leave after losing rock-paper-siccor, how is this wrong?
Ofcourse it should not be possible to get stuff like code B because of this though... I doubt this is true. If they didn't have additional rules beyond this it would imply maphacking is fine as well. There's obviously more to their rules that just being the last to leave the game.
i think blizzard perceives this more as a minor exploitation and not in violation of eula, unlike map hacking, etc. direct and unauthorized modification of the game is a bannable offense, unlike persuading someone to do something completely within the confines of regular play (in this case, asking someone to leave).
|
But to determine a winner it's that (leaving the game, soz forgot to quote) or destroy opponents buildings.
|
On January 13 2011 18:57 kirkybaby wrote:
i think blizzard perceives this more as a minor exploitation and not in violation of eula, unlike map hacking, etc. direct and unauthorized modification of the game is a bannable offense, unlike persuading someone to do something completely within the confines of regular play (in this case, asking someone to leave).
Absolutely inaccurate. So in a ladder qualifier to a big tournament you can just ask your opponent to leave every game and qualify with 100-0 and 100 freewins and you would say it is completely within the confines of regular play? Aka nobody playing a single match and everyone abusing their way into the tournament?
I don't know where you come up with these arguments. If Blizzard doesn't do anything it is because a) they couldn't or don't want to prove intent or b) due to negative publicity they refuse to make a bigger deal out of the situation. It is not because they think it is fine for players to do this, no chance.
|
If you can talk someone into leaving and taking a lose. I think you deserve that win.
|
On January 13 2011 18:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:57 kirkybaby wrote:
i think blizzard perceives this more as a minor exploitation and not in violation of eula, unlike map hacking, etc. direct and unauthorized modification of the game is a bannable offense, unlike persuading someone to do something completely within the confines of regular play (in this case, asking someone to leave). Absolutely inaccurate. So in a ladder qualifier you can just ask your opponent to leave every game and qualify with 100-0 and 100 freewins and you would say it is completely within the confines of regular play?
not within regular play, but it's not violating any of the terms that blizzard has laid out in the legal agreement a player has inherently agreed to by playing sc2. i'm looking at it more from a legal perspective, rather than a moral/ethical perspective. obviously i don't condone it, but it's far from maphacking imho.
edit: i might be wrong, there might be something (it'd have to be vague if it's in there) that states this kind of action is against the eula. i also think blizzard would probably dq someone who has obviously exploited the system to gain entry into one of their sponsored tournaments.
|
On January 13 2011 18:53 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:50 Warmyth wrote:
In my opinion Blizzard can't really do anything about it, there statement of winning is simple 'If you are the last player to leave the game', so if players leave after losing rock-paper-siccor, how is this wrong?
Ofcourse it should not be possible to get stuff like code B because of this though... I doubt this is true. If they didn't have additional rules beyond this it would imply maphacking is fine as well. There's obviously more to their rules that just being the last to leave the game.
I really don't think they have a rule that can use against this, and if they have one, then probally a lot of other things that happen in games are also wrong.
For example, you also can't ask a player to 'Please leave?' at the start of the game? And maybe you could also say that it is Illegal to cheese, cause games end a lot faster this way then macro games, so you as a cheese player winning 50-60% of games would get a higher rating a lot faster ?
I think this is a area where it is really difficult to difine things as legal or illegal.
Edit: Ofcourse I still agree that this should not be possible, because there are big things like qualifications coupled to your rating, and Blizzard is not fine with it.
|
If someone has the link to Blizzards T&A of the game and the ladder rules it would really shock me if they have nothing against abuse and or fair play. Unless you have a link with proof I think it's safe to assume Blizzard will not have forgotten to write a small paragraph about this. Including a rule about fair play is standard procedure usually.
|
As long as he didn't do anything illegal I don't know how can you call this a scandal. I think Plexa is right and it was just to hide his match history (and fast).
|
On January 13 2011 18:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:57 kirkybaby wrote:
i think blizzard perceives this more as a minor exploitation and not in violation of eula, unlike map hacking, etc. direct and unauthorized modification of the game is a bannable offense, unlike persuading someone to do something completely within the confines of regular play (in this case, asking someone to leave). Absolutely inaccurate. So in a ladder qualifier to a big tournament you can just ask your opponent to leave every game and qualify with 100-0 and 100 freewins and you would say it is completely within the confines of regular play? Aka nobody playing a single match and everyone abusing their way into the tournament?
If a tournament is basing qualification on ladder ranking then I don't think it would be that hard to DQ someone based on their match history. If they see something fishy and look into it they should consider them ineligible.
|
what has this to do with GSL though??
|
Where are all the games where he wins the RPS and the other guy just stays and plays a game? What progamer 'honor' makes them leave once they lost the rps.
|
|
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
Just woke up, and im sure to be laughing the rest of the day XDDDD.
As the quote from nazgul says, i think a top player shoudnt do that in the "official" ranking, even if it isnt accurate, is the one that we have now, and you cant just say, its ok because he is Code S, this kind of stuff is ok if all you want are portraits from team games or something like that, not to cheat the ladder, its pretty sad.
|
I don't actually see this causing too many problems at the levels where it really matters.
Assume Choya was some no-name getting his code B qualification by asking people to RPS him.
It would take exactly one (1) person to submit a replay of this to the GSL, or Blizzard, or even Team Liquid to get it known and to get Choya disqualified.
Which isn't to say that it's not bad, of course. It's a bit unethical and demeans the GSL by lowering the integrity of Code B. But I don't think you could get into Code B that way, because if they take the top 200 players on the ladder, and you tried to Rock-Paper-Scissors number 201...
|
BLIZZARD MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE ACCOUNTS AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU. Accounts terminated by Blizzard for any type of abuse, including without limitation a violation of these Terms of Use, will not be reactivated for any reason. For purposes of explanation and not limitation, most account suspensions, terminations and/or deletions are the result of violations of this TOU, a Game EULA or other Blizzard policy. You may cancel any Account registered to you at any time by following the instructions on the Website. Blizzard may stop offering and/or supporting the Service at any time.
Standard.
|
On January 13 2011 19:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +BLIZZARD MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE ACCOUNTS AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU. Accounts terminated by Blizzard for any type of abuse, including without limitation a violation of these Terms of Use, will not be reactivated for any reason. For purposes of explanation and not limitation, most account suspensions, terminations and/or deletions are the result of violations of this TOU, a Game EULA or other Blizzard policy. You may cancel any Account registered to you at any time by following the instructions on the Website. Blizzard may stop offering and/or supporting the Service at any time. Standard.
With all due respect, that's a pretty big stretch. Additionally, that doesn't really validate what you were saying earlier, as this says that Blizzard has the right to ban you, not to DQ you from future sponsored events. Now, I understand this is the TOU for Battle.net but I just disagree with your underlying notion that ladder exploitation (which isn't even proven) is on par with something like maphacking, and that Blizzard should take action against him. They're well within their right to, but then again, they can ban you for absolutely nothing and be well within their rights too, see the first sentence of your C&P.
|
Is it bad that he did this, or is it bad that ladder rankings have anything to do with tournament seeding?
|
Similar things happened in WoW when people were trying to up their ranking in the Arena or power level new teams. It isn't ethical and if need be, Blizzard will add new rules, however, you might just face a ban and be the scapegoat to warn other people from abusing it.
|
On January 13 2011 19:24 byce wrote:
Is it bad that he did this, or is it bad that ladder rankings have anything to do with tournament seeding?
Yeh I thought it was rather strange, I thought (don't know why) that tournaments were all internal. Seems weird that ladder would come into it when it isn't really a great indicator other than how much you play, MMR (if it were viewable) would be ok though.
|
On January 13 2011 19:25 Bliznako wrote:
Similar things happened in WoW when people were trying to up their ranking in the Arena or power level new teams. It isn't ethical and if need be, Blizzard will add new rules, however, you might just face a ban and be the scapegoat to warn other people from abusing it.
I think this pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter. They'll take action if they feel it's going to become a problem because they're concerned with the longevity of their games, not because it's moral/ethical to smash the banhammer on someone for doing something that's questionably illegal.
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
This. Enough said about the player lol
|
On January 13 2011 19:22 kirkybaby wrote:
With all due respect, that's a pretty big stretch. Additionally, that doesn't really validate what you were saying earlier, as this says that Blizzard has the right to ban you, not to DQ you from future sponsored events. Now, I understand this is the TOU for Battle.net but I just disagree with your underlying notion that ladder exploitation (which isn't even proven) is on par with something like maphacking, and that Blizzard should take action against him. They're well within their right to, but then again, they can ban you for absolutely nothing and be well within their rights too, see the first sentence of your C&P.
You just said you're approaching it from a legal perspective so I showed you that legally they can do whatever they want if they deem it outside of their view of fair play.
Abuse of Game Mechanics
The distinction between exploiting bugs and abusing game mechanics is a fine one. While bug exploitation involves the abuse of what is essentially a programming mistake, the abuse of game mechanics is the act of taking advantage of the limitations of the StarCraft II game systems. Since the line between the sanctioned use and the abuse of game mechanics is sometimes unclear, we prefer to educate players before taking any action against the account being used. This category includes using/distributing game mechanics in a manner unintended by their design that:
Damages another player's game, their gameplay, and/or the service itself
If a player is found to have abused/distributed such game mechanics, he/she may:
Be given a warning
Subsequent related offenses will result in temporary suspension from the game
http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_US&tag=SC2exploitation&rhtml=true
No matter how you approach this Blizzard can do whatever they want from a legal perspective as well as from a moral perspective. They may not, but they can if they want to. Anyway nothing surprising here a company as big as Blizzard isn't going to allow some loopholes that make it possible to do these things without them being able to do something about it. If they feel it's necessary they will do something, if they don't they won't.
|
maybe Blizzard should not make such crappy ladder systems ...
|
Account wipe of everyone that did this with warning seems like a just punishment.
|
He was prolly drunk looking to have some fun and get a good laugh. made me crack up.
|
I find it amazing that the ladder system actually can be subject to this kind of abuse in the first place.
|
On January 13 2011 19:33 Zeon0 wrote:
maybe Blizzard should not make such crappy ladder systems ...
Yeah. As successful the Blizzard ladder is at what it does, as a matter of practicality I don't think they can ever guarantee its integrity. So it's disheartening both that they have such a monopoly on the ladder and that it's used to judge who can qualify for some tournaments.
I mean for the TSL ladder qualifiers, staff reviewed everything every player did to make sure nobody cheated their way into the tournament.
|
On January 13 2011 19:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
You just said you're approaching it from a legal perspective so I showed you that legally they can do whatever they want if they deem it outside of their view of fair play.
No matter how you approach this Blizzard can do whatever they want from a legal perspective as well as from a moral perspective. They may not, but they can if they want to. Anyway nothing surprising here a company as big as Blizzard isn't going to allow some loopholes that make it possible to do these things without them being able to do something about it. If they feel it's necessary they will do something, if they don't they won't.
I think we agree. Perhaps it's just how I worded my first post. The point here is that we agree Blizzard can do whatever they want to the account. We both think they may do something, or they may not. Good find BTW, it's nice having relevant legal information presented rather than hearsay. Cheers.
edit: double negatives.. ack.
|
On January 13 2011 19:38 Mikilatov wrote:
I find it amazing that the ladder system actually can be subject to this kind of abuse in the first place.
AMM is a good system. In BW you only had ladders where you had to find your opponents yourself. Imagine how hard it was to moderate those
I don't mind the system for SC2 nor do I have instant improvements in mind that could have avoided something as random as people asking their opponents to freeloss through rock paper scissors. Just seems something that is implied to happen even if you use the best ladder system on the planet. Ladders are not supposed to be perfect without human moderation so it's all about the moderation Blizzard puts on the ladder to spot these things.
|
I remember in WC3's when pros that were close matched each other they each got a panda (skill with %to crit/miss) and duke it out in the middle just panda vs panda. Loser leaves.
|
Kinda says something about Korean honor, I guess. Most players in NA, if they lose the RPS, they'd try to play the game out anyway and not honor the 'deal.'
This kinda thing also doesn't work unless both players agree, especially the losing player. That in itself is pretty hard.
Honestly, not a big deal. Most of the notable players out there winning tournaments hardly care about the ladder. ogsmc and nestea, for example, aren't #1, even though he could easily take it.
Nothing can really be done, except take away the player's freedom. They're free to surrender anytime they want.
|
if thats sc2's biggest scandal then sc2 is pretty screwed;-)
(imho thats nothing to brag about. choYa showed what could happen before anybody in the position to abuse it could. i say: thanks choya!)
|
On January 13 2011 19:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 19:38 Mikilatov wrote:
I find it amazing that the ladder system actually can be subject to this kind of abuse in the first place. AMM is a good system. In BW you only had ladders where you had to find your opponents yourself. Imagine how hard it was to moderate those I don't mind the system for SC2 nor do I have instant improvements in mind that could have avoided something as random as people asking their opponents to freeloss through rock paper scissors. Just seems something that is implied to happen even if you use the best ladder system on the planet. Ladders are not supposed to be perfect without human moderation so it's all about the moderation Blizzard puts on the ladder to spot these things.
huh what about a simple elo system? wouldnt it be completely pointless to do rock/paper/scissors in one of those?
|
Its funny that when you ask blizzard why they dont just display the MRR they state that the number doesnt change very much and would be uninteresting (isnt that the point? a number that shows how good you are that doesnt change unless you improve...)
this was in some secrets of the masters interviews or something like that
masters league makes all previous progress seem kinda absurd. its dumb that the moment theres a reset mmr stays so you get promoted after 1 placement match. thats completely pointless. its a ladder because you CLIMB...
|
if opponent agrees, where is the problem????
|
He just found a way for his points to converge and spend bonus pool faster. No unfair advantage IMO.
|
choya is playing right now on code s. let's see if he asks his opponent to leave at any point during the game.
|
I've seen cella do this a ton on his stream, the way I understood it he did it with other WeRRa members (back when werra existed) and it was just a harmless fun thing to do with mates...
|
|
|
noob question, but how does he do it? both submit text at the same time?
|
The problem is, while it is just a game and people should be free and able to do this if they both agree, the ladder is apparently (and unfortunately imo) linked to tournaments, so it can give people unfair advantages and whatnot which isn't cool.
|
On January 13 2011 19:50 diehilde wrote:
huh what about a simple elo system? wouldnt it be completely pointless to do rock/paper/scissors in one of those?
Ah yea ELO is definitely a lot better and more meaningful. Gogo ELO!
|
guy is too good not to play GSL + he's using the tasteless build!
|
seeing that record he should stick to playing starcraft instead of playing rock-paper-scissors
|
nobody remember that Gom can dq a player for "unsuitable" behaviour....
Abusing ladder system used for a determination of Code B (top ladder players) is rather bad... But choya is code S than WTF...
|
Ladder is not serious business. Really not worth worrying about.
|
On January 13 2011 20:38 Severedevil wrote:
Ladder is not serious business. Really not worth worrying about.
I do agree, however while tournament's hold it in any regard, actions like this (as trivial as it is) can't be acceptable.
|
Seriously, what's unfair about it? Unless he is using illegal means to match with people he knows.
|
If you don't see a problem with this, then read the original post!
|
Can't see why this is wrong... If the system allows it it's ok. Fix the ladder or accept things like this.
|
Hi, TLers.
Comet from wfbrood.com(China).
I have translated this into Chinese and posted on wfbrood.com. I have clearly stated that this was taken from here and I will bing feedback from China to back to here.
Here is the link:http://bbs.wfbrood.com/thread-23658-1-1.html
Thanks!
|
how do you play rock paper scissors in bnet?
|
GSL spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +and after this.... he proxygates his teammate out of GSL
I love this guy.
User was warned for this post
|
@netherDrake
You should put that in spoiler... not fair to people not watching the GSL live.
|
|
|
On January 13 2011 17:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser. Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house? What if it is used to get into Code B qualifiers? What if it is used to get into Blizzcon (Blizzard picked Huk and Select from the ladder)? Don't let it come to a situation where you need to judge someones motivation on why he abused the ladder. You will never be able to prove it. Now I'm not asking you to think Choya is evil because realistically this is relatively innocent. But don't say who cares or what does ladder even matter, because next time it happens and it does have influence on a bigger event you will have to bite your tongue. And you will realize that the attitude of saying ladder abuse is fine because it doesn't matter is what caused all the larger problems to begin. If Blizzard is smart they give him some sort of penalty to let everyone know this is simply not allowed. If they don't it's giving people permission to do the same in preparation for their Code B qualifiers.
I think giving a ton of tournament qualification spots on a flawed ladder system that doesn't work so magnificently isn't the best idea in the first place. Points are getting too inflated already and it doesn't really show any true measure of skill.
I was always a fan of the closed ladders used for TSL1 and TSL2 type things. This hidden MMR stuff messes up the ladder to a point where it really shouldn't be used for tournament places.
That being said I do agree with you that abuse should be avoided at all times. Doesn't set a good precedent.
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
Greg wins the thread.. and made my day
|
Honestly though, I truly think that this is being displayed WAY WAY out of proportion...
|
On January 13 2011 21:00 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 17:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser. Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house? What if it is used to get into Code B qualifiers? What if it is used to get into Blizzcon (Blizzard picked Huk and Select from the ladder)? Don't let it come to a situation where you need to judge someones motivation on why he abused the ladder. You will never be able to prove it. Now I'm not asking you to think Choya is evil because realistically this is relatively innocent. But don't say who cares or what does ladder even matter, because next time it happens and it does have influence on a bigger event you will have to bite your tongue. And you will realize that the attitude of saying ladder abuse is fine because it doesn't matter is what caused all the larger problems to begin. If Blizzard is smart they give him some sort of penalty to let everyone know this is simply not allowed. If they don't it's giving people permission to do the same in preparation for their Code B qualifiers. I think giving a ton of tournament qualification spots on a flawed ladder system that doesn't work so magnificently isn't the best idea in the first place. Points are getting too inflated already and it doesn't really show any true measure of skill. I was always a fan of the closed ladders used for TSL1 and TSL2 type things. This hidden MMR stuff messes up the ladder to a point where it really shouldn't be used for tournament places. That being said I do agree with you that abuse should be avoided at all times. Doesn't set a good precedent.
I appreciate the nice comments about TSL but ICCup also rewarded activity.. what Choya did would be possible there as well, and there is no way we would have allowed it under some ridiculous mention of the system making it possible, like some of the comments here seem to think. Absolutely dumbfounded that people think this should be allowed simply because it's possible. Some of the most shortsighted stuff I've seen on TL in a while.
|
On January 13 2011 21:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:00 Jayme wrote:On January 13 2011 17:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser. Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house? What if it is used to get into Code B qualifiers? What if it is used to get into Blizzcon (Blizzard picked Huk and Select from the ladder)? Don't let it come to a situation where you need to judge someones motivation on why he abused the ladder. You will never be able to prove it. Now I'm not asking you to think Choya is evil because realistically this is relatively innocent. But don't say who cares or what does ladder even matter, because next time it happens and it does have influence on a bigger event you will have to bite your tongue. And you will realize that the attitude of saying ladder abuse is fine because it doesn't matter is what caused all the larger problems to begin. If Blizzard is smart they give him some sort of penalty to let everyone know this is simply not allowed. If they don't it's giving people permission to do the same in preparation for their Code B qualifiers. I think giving a ton of tournament qualification spots on a flawed ladder system that doesn't work so magnificently isn't the best idea in the first place. Points are getting too inflated already and it doesn't really show any true measure of skill. I was always a fan of the closed ladders used for TSL1 and TSL2 type things. This hidden MMR stuff messes up the ladder to a point where it really shouldn't be used for tournament places. That being said I do agree with you that abuse should be avoided at all times. Doesn't set a good precedent. Absolutely dumbfounded that people think this should be allowed simply because it's possible. Some of the most shortsighted stuff I've seen on TL in a while.
its the same flawed mindset of people saying that using exploits/bugs is ok cause its blizzards fault for not fixing em.
always people that think that way out there...
|
Actually, it's called a difference of opinion..
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
LMAO
Wow, that was funny..
I also don't see the point in doing this if you're already in Code S. Maybe he's doing ot for his ego or something..
|
This might be a good time to question again why any important things are decided on ladderrank/points.
Be it by buying a new account to grab a fresh bonus pool or winsharing or playing rock/paper/scissors the official ladder will always be exploitable.
You will not notice everyone who does this, so it has to be solved by not allowing ladder results to be important for anything of relevance.
Unfortunalty Blizzard tries to go the other way via GOM. Other tournaments should not follow this route.
|
|
|
Well its mostly stupid on blizzards side since they reset ladder points when you got into master league but you keep your high MMR so you lose very few points and get alot until you reach ladder points matching your MMR.
|
On January 13 2011 21:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:00 Jayme wrote:On January 13 2011 17:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser. Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house? What if it is used to get into Code B qualifiers? What if it is used to get into Blizzcon (Blizzard picked Huk and Select from the ladder)? Don't let it come to a situation where you need to judge someones motivation on why he abused the ladder. You will never be able to prove it. Now I'm not asking you to think Choya is evil because realistically this is relatively innocent. But don't say who cares or what does ladder even matter, because next time it happens and it does have influence on a bigger event you will have to bite your tongue. And you will realize that the attitude of saying ladder abuse is fine because it doesn't matter is what caused all the larger problems to begin. If Blizzard is smart they give him some sort of penalty to let everyone know this is simply not allowed. If they don't it's giving people permission to do the same in preparation for their Code B qualifiers. I think giving a ton of tournament qualification spots on a flawed ladder system that doesn't work so magnificently isn't the best idea in the first place. Points are getting too inflated already and it doesn't really show any true measure of skill. I was always a fan of the closed ladders used for TSL1 and TSL2 type things. This hidden MMR stuff messes up the ladder to a point where it really shouldn't be used for tournament places. That being said I do agree with you that abuse should be avoided at all times. Doesn't set a good precedent. I appreciate the nice comments about TSL but ICCup also rewarded activity.. what Choya did would be possible there as well, and there is no way we would have allowed it under some ridiculous mention of the system making it possible, like some of the comments here seem to think. Absolutely dumbfounded that people think this should be allowed simply because it's possible. Some of the most shortsighted stuff I've seen on TL in a while.
I mean no disrespect Sir Nazgul but,
Why is it so serious? Why can't people freely decide how they want to play the game (not including cheating of course, which this isn't)? Sure it inflates his ladder points, but if they weren't used for some tournament qualifications (which is the only reason I am opposed to it) it wouldn't be of any benefit to him.
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
XD Just watched him cannon rush then get totally crushed. From what I've seen, I don't think he deserves to be in code S. And cheating your way up the ladder does matter because as silly as it may be, there are people out there who work hard for their ladder rank.
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
GSL 1/13 Spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +Right after I read this, I alt-tabbed back to the GSL stream and choya was literally proxy gating! hahahaha
|
On January 13 2011 21:15 Phenny wrote:
I mean no disrespect Sir Nazgul but,
Why is it so serious? Why can't people freely decide how they want to play the game (not including cheating of course, which this isn't)? Sure it inflates his ladder points, but if they weren't used for some tournament qualifications (which is the only reason I am opposed to it) it wouldn't be of any benefit to him.
On January 13 2011 21:12 Morisal wrote:
Actually, it's called a difference of opinion..
It's not just a difference of opinion, it's much more than that. These opinions as you call it, of ladder abuse being fine, have ruined Esports for the past years and should not just be accepted so easily as a difference of opinion.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108352
I want to state again that this Choya thing is not bad at all compared to people doing it for worse intentions. I'm not saying what he did is equal to what these guys did in the TSL. However the approval of the abuse as part of Bnet mechanics is exactly the same as the mechanics people used when abusing their way into the TSL.
Saying it is not a big deal because he didn't have much to gain is fine, saying it's not a big deal because people should freely be allowed to wintrade however, that is disturbing.
|
On January 13 2011 21:15 Phenny wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 21:00 Jayme wrote:On January 13 2011 17:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser. Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house? What if it is used to get into Code B qualifiers? What if it is used to get into Blizzcon (Blizzard picked Huk and Select from the ladder)? Don't let it come to a situation where you need to judge someones motivation on why he abused the ladder. You will never be able to prove it. Now I'm not asking you to think Choya is evil because realistically this is relatively innocent. But don't say who cares or what does ladder even matter, because next time it happens and it does have influence on a bigger event you will have to bite your tongue. And you will realize that the attitude of saying ladder abuse is fine because it doesn't matter is what caused all the larger problems to begin. If Blizzard is smart they give him some sort of penalty to let everyone know this is simply not allowed. If they don't it's giving people permission to do the same in preparation for their Code B qualifiers. I think giving a ton of tournament qualification spots on a flawed ladder system that doesn't work so magnificently isn't the best idea in the first place. Points are getting too inflated already and it doesn't really show any true measure of skill. I was always a fan of the closed ladders used for TSL1 and TSL2 type things. This hidden MMR stuff messes up the ladder to a point where it really shouldn't be used for tournament places. That being said I do agree with you that abuse should be avoided at all times. Doesn't set a good precedent. I appreciate the nice comments about TSL but ICCup also rewarded activity.. what Choya did would be possible there as well, and there is no way we would have allowed it under some ridiculous mention of the system making it possible, like some of the comments here seem to think. Absolutely dumbfounded that people think this should be allowed simply because it's possible. Some of the most shortsighted stuff I've seen on TL in a while. I mean no disrespect Sir Nazgul but, Why is it so serious? Why can't people freely decide how they want to play the game (not including cheating of course, which this isn't)? Sure it inflates his ladder points, but if they weren't used for some tournament qualifications (which is the only reason I am opposed to it) it wouldn't be of any benefit to him.
do you like checking the top200 for trends and player status?
do you like beeing matched evenly when playing?
do you think that ladder should be a place for competing against others?
do you think its ok that this might hurt other players that ARE trying to qualify over the ladder?
there are many more but if you agree on atleast one of them there is no way you can say this is ok.
/edit its no huge scandal or something. but that doesnt mean its fine and evryone should freely do that.
|
No huge deal, but Blizz should do something to punish him, like 48 ladder ban and resetting ladder points. Or maybe just resetting ladder points.
Obvious abuse, and should therefore obviously be punished from an e-sports perspective. Meaning that if they want to tie the ladder into e-sports they need to punish abuse aiming to climbing the ladder. If they wont tie the ladder into e-sports at all they can ignore it imo... But they are so it should be punished.
|
You believe it's abuse, doesn't mean it's a fact.
If anything this is more fair because his points are approaching his true, hidden rating. There's no parallel with iCCup as there's no hidden rating or automated matchmaking.
|
Well it might not be right what his doing but the way you get into master league just suck... you will keep winning more points and only lose a few until you reach about same points as you had in diamond. Look at players like PiQLiQ who is already at 3,134 points in master league (3600 in diamond) still only loses a few points when loseing a game.
Its still wrong thought.
|
On January 13 2011 21:28 Soap wrote:
If anything this is more fair because his points are approaching his true, hidden rating.
Wtf? The system assumes you are at your "true" rating when you have 50/50. Now who knows how the games would go if you play them out? Maybe you just suck, got lucky for a while and now continue to lose?
Who says Choya "would" indeed win all these games? Just because he is code S?
|
On January 13 2011 21:31 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:28 Soap wrote:
If anything this is more fair because his points are approaching his true, hidden rating. Wtf? The system assumes you are at your "true" rating when you have 50/50. Now who knows how the games would go if you play them out? Maybe you just suck, got lucky for a while and now continue to lose? Who says Choya "would" indeed win all these games? Just because he is code S?
In the long run he'll have 50/50 wins/losses and his MMR remains stable. This is akin to saying poker is rigged because someone can win several hands in a row. Guess what: he'll also lose several times in a row.
|
On January 13 2011 21:34 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:31 sleepingdog wrote:On January 13 2011 21:28 Soap wrote:
If anything this is more fair because his points are approaching his true, hidden rating. Wtf? The system assumes you are at your "true" rating when you have 50/50. Now who knows how the games would go if you play them out? Maybe you just suck, got lucky for a while and now continue to lose? Who says Choya "would" indeed win all these games? Just because he is code S? In the long run he'll have 50/50 wins/losses and his MMR remains stable. This is akin to saying poker is rigged because someone can win several hands in a row. Guess what: he'll also lose several times in a row.
This makes so little sense in so many ways.
In the long run he'll have 50/50, yes, but only THEN, when he's matched up against opponents of the same skill. Who knows, maybe he is currently overrated and should LOSE more games to approach his true rating? Then getting 50/50 from rock-paper-scissors inflates his points more than he'd deserve.
|
How did he do rock paper scissors on the ladder? I can only think like both players messaged someone or something, but even then Choya could cheat it.
|
On January 13 2011 21:35 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:34 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 21:31 sleepingdog wrote:On January 13 2011 21:28 Soap wrote:
If anything this is more fair because his points are approaching his true, hidden rating. Wtf? The system assumes you are at your "true" rating when you have 50/50. Now who knows how the games would go if you play them out? Maybe you just suck, got lucky for a while and now continue to lose? Who says Choya "would" indeed win all these games? Just because he is code S? In the long run he'll have 50/50 wins/losses and his MMR remains stable. This is akin to saying poker is rigged because someone can win several hands in a row. Guess what: he'll also lose several times in a row. This makes so little sense in so many ways. In the long run he'll have 50/50, yes, but only THEN, when he's matched up against opponents of the same skill. Who knows, maybe he is currently overrated and should LOSE more games to approach his true rating? Then getting 50/50 from rock-paper-scissors inflates his points more than he'd deserve.
Then he'll lose against those who doesn't accept his offer and play the game out.
|
What's the issue here? He left games on purpose? How the hell is that abuse? If laddersystem was so broken that you'd get to top by leaving every 2nd game I still wouldn't see the point in blaming some "pro" for doing it, when clearly it shouldn't benefit him at all -> if ladder is broken like that it can't be used as qualification board to GSL or other tournaments to begin with.
I played like 50 games yesterday, starting from 2300p. I played like shit, got +23p from every win at first, but when I got to like 2800p most games have turned into "teams even". I was 3,2k before patch, so I'm seeing this just as bnet's way to give old ratings back to those who deserve them. Thus I'd think choya is just demoting his own real rating by doing this, and eventually won't be near the top if he continues this.
Really, how can ladder wins/losses count as "scandal" no matter what you do? Unless it's third party program like maphack, I can't see anything to make scandalous over what you do in bnet.
|
On January 13 2011 21:35 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:34 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 21:31 sleepingdog wrote:On January 13 2011 21:28 Soap wrote:
If anything this is more fair because his points are approaching his true, hidden rating. Wtf? The system assumes you are at your "true" rating when you have 50/50. Now who knows how the games would go if you play them out? Maybe you just suck, got lucky for a while and now continue to lose? Who says Choya "would" indeed win all these games? Just because he is code S? In the long run he'll have 50/50 wins/losses and his MMR remains stable. This is akin to saying poker is rigged because someone can win several hands in a row. Guess what: he'll also lose several times in a row. This makes so little sense in so many ways. In the long run he'll have 50/50, yes, but only THEN, when he's matched up against opponents of the same skill. Who knows, maybe he is currently overrated and should LOSE more games to approach his true rating? Then getting 50/50 from rock-paper-scissors inflates his points more than he'd deserve.
He cant keep doing this all the way back to the points he had before, players who think they are better then him would ofcause not agree to this when they start loseing more then 1-5 points from a loss and him doing this against weaker/lower ranked players would be bad for him since he lose more points from a loss then gain from a win.
This is only going to work for him until he gets some of the points back not all.
What his doing is wrong thought but cant realy blame him much when blizzard went this way with master league.
|
reset his points; only solution I see honestly.
|
On January 13 2011 17:40 Cambam wrote:
Just a quick and efficient way to get his displayed rating up to his hidden rating (MMR), because of the master leauge reset. And it looks like it worked, he is #1 on KR ladder at the moment.
It will stop working once his displayed rating reaches his hidden rating. Read Excalibur_Z's thread on how the ladder system works.
Here's a quick rundown:
Let's say he gets promoted to masters and reset to 2400 displayed rating. Meanwhile, we'll say his MMR is 3000. He plays a game against IMNestea who is also 2400 displayed, 3000 MMR (hypothetically).
IMNestea will appear favored to choya and choya will appear favored to IMNestea. This is because the favored system works by comparing your opponents HIDDEN rating to your DISPLAYED rating. Thus:
IMNestea's HIDDEN rating of 3000 > choya's DISPLAYED rating of 2400
and vice versa.
Everyone will be favored to choya (and thus give +20~ and -5~) until his displayed rating catches up to his hidden rating.
Hope that made sense. It's just choya's clever way of skyrocketing to the top of the ladder faster than everyone else. But like I said, it will stop working eventually.
Thanks for posting this.
The RPS thing is one thing to understand but the why the points behave like this i didn't get.
|
Canada13386 Posts
I dont know why he did it but I still feel that he should be playing his matches through and not just RPS-ing to get points :S
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
This is why I love you, Grack.
|
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
The idea that an agreement has been made between players to decide the results off their match independently of their skill is absolutely not in breach of any express condition in Blizzards terms and conditions.
I note that you said Blizzard has the discretion to ban an account for any reason of their choice, however I assure you that this term is unconscionable and would be ruled out in any common law judicial system if it was used for the purpose that you adduced.
A contract where the usage rights of a piece of intellectual property has been provided to the user for consideration cannot contain a clause whereby the creator has absolute control over the usage, as it would deem their contra-consideration as illusory and an order would be made for damages, specific performance or a mandatory injunction.
Next, I'd like to point out that you clearly do not separate the clear line between morals and legality.It is very fortunate that legislators and members of the judiciary are not as near sighted as some of the members of Team Liquid who profess the same view as Liquid Nazgul. If such an ends-justifies-the-means approach was taken, then it would lead to chaos and uncertainty in the legal world as it stands.
For example, people could no longer use trusts as a form of tax avoidance because it is recognized that trusts are often arrangements where money is transferred to a trustee for a beneficiary to avoid duties that would otherwise be attributable such as stamp duty, estate duties.
- Anyone, including Choya, if he or his family would be fined a lot of money because he found a way to abuse the legal system and use trusts to manage his finances to avoid tax.
- Similarly, the richest people in the world would actually be paying taxes rather than close to nothing to to very ingenious tax arrangements.
The way the legal system works in common law countries is that it separates its organs into three different parts: the legislative, the executive and the judiciary. One makes the laws, the other applies them and the other interprets them. Here, there is clearly no law against what Choya is doing. Arguing that there is an arbitrary clause that allows Blizzard to do whatever they want does not support Nazgul's argument that he should be banned. Everyone who purchases the game is free to play the game as they will. If people wanted to get smart, they could still play the same game and then pretend to lose by playing standard and building insufficient army to defend against a rush by the other player. The fact is, it doesn't need to go there. People can do whatever they want - even drone rush if they felt like it.
It is the job of the legislators, in this case, the rule makers to ensure that the conditions of use reflect their intention. If someone has found a legitimate way to use the system to their advantage, then the rules should be amended. There is nothing that can justify the individual player from taking advantage of a loop hole in the system. Hate the game, don't hate the player.
|
Why is this being called a 'scandal'? It's just a guy fooling around on the ladder. LOL, Choya performs every other type of cheese known to toss, why not go that extra step?
|
On January 13 2011 21:57 Nemireck wrote:
Why is this being called a 'scandal'? It's just a guy fooling around on the ladder. LOL, Choya performs every other type of cheese known to toss, why not go that extra step?
Because Starcraft 2 is the "Master Race" of e-sports and anyone doing something shaddy must be pointed out and expunged for not playing like everyone else thinks he should.
|
On January 13 2011 17:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser. Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house?
I get where you're coming from. I think most ppl don't really care though because mostly, only low level tournaments would rely on ladder points for qualifiers, not tournaments like the osl or msl, etc. and most ppl don't watch/participate in these low level tournaments.
as for the gsl, yes you did mention about the GomTV house qualifiers process. in this case, choya's actions would be "unfair" but tbh, the selection process isn't fair in the first place (and neither does the gomtv house qualifier process apply to choya anyway but that's been said already and is not my point). you do realize GomTV is going out of their way to get more foreigners into the gsl right? they're automatically adding 4 foreigners (out of our recommendation too) and now they are also planning to provide free housing to 8 foreigners who will make up the gomtv house. since foreigners won't come to korea to attend qualifiers, GomTV is planning to rely on ladder points. it's a privilege that foreigners even get the chance to apply for a place in the gsl just from their ladder points b/c they refuse to come to korea for qualifiers; no matter what kind of global/international aspirations/bs the gsl might throw out, the gsl still remains strictly as a korean sc2 tournament that does not have obligations to have a certain # of foreign competitors and employing these measure to attract foreigners is not being fair to other ppl who actually go to/are in korea for qualifiers or those who make the qualifiers but have to pay their own rent instead of staying in gomtvhouse.
i understand your message, but i think your example of using gomtv house is misleading. of course, you may say that just because the selection process isn't fair doesn't mean ppl can abuse it and that is true. but in that case, you should not just fault ppl like choya but also tournaments that employ such a flawed measure of qualification.
|
It is GSL related because he is a GSL player.
It is a scandal because he is abusing the system.
It matters because the ladder does matter for some tourneys.
|
On January 13 2011 21:18 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:15 Phenny wrote:
I mean no disrespect Sir Nazgul but,
Why is it so serious? Why can't people freely decide how they want to play the game (not including cheating of course, which this isn't)? Sure it inflates his ladder points, but if they weren't used for some tournament qualifications (which is the only reason I am opposed to it) it wouldn't be of any benefit to him. Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:12 Morisal wrote:
Actually, it's called a difference of opinion.. It's not just a difference of opinion, it's much more than that. These opinions as you call it, of ladder abuse being fine, have ruined Esports for the past years and should not just be accepted so easily as a difference of opinion. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108352I want to state again that this Choya thing is not bad at all compared to people doing it for worse intentions. I'm not saying what he did is equal to what these guys did in the TSL. However the approval of the abuse as part of Bnet mechanics is exactly the same as the mechanics people used when abusing their way into the TSL. Saying it is not a big deal because he didn't have much to gain is fine, saying it's not a big deal because people should freely be allowed to wintrade however, that is disturbing.
Do you want to enforce Kespa-like rules to every hobby bw player there is in order to "preserve esports", while ruining the game (it is a game after all) in the process?
I see where you are coming from and we should be concerned about abuse in serious competitions and do our best to stop it. The thing here is though that you can't just make up some weird rule for yourself, that every player there is has to take ladder 100% seriously, must play his best every game and is not allowed to fool around. The only one who could establish and enforce such rules for the ladder are blizzard themselves, because it is their game, ladder and servers.
I agree with you 100% if you were open enough to modify that last sentence toSaying it is not a big deal because he didn't have much to gain is fine, saying it's not a big deal because people should freely be allowed to wintrade in serious competitions however, that is disturbing.
If you don't see that at all, which I'm not sure about - maybe you just didn't express it very well, then I'm as upset about you as you are about people accepting it as meaningless.
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
The gracken pulled a funny.
|
On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
.
Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community.
|
Nobody forced his opponents to leave when they lost the rock paper scissors game.
|
Actually confusedcrib, when you first sign up for Teamliquid, some of the first rules are that THIS IS OUR HOUSE AND WE HAVE OUR RULES. I am certainly very wary of what to post on these forums, especially if it is against the views of a moderator.
How you define community is very important. The Starcraft II community extends way beyond the confines of the TL community. Here, the target demographic may take laddering and rankings very seriously.
However, between a group of 12-13 year olds who have never heard of TL, this may be completely irrelevant. They just want to have fun and do what they want. Why should one community, or even select members of the community have the right to impose what people should and shouldn't do based on their views? As enzym said, why does everyone have to take the ladder seriously? Because you say so?
|
On January 13 2011 17:36 exarchrum wrote:
A win rate of 50% won't get him very high on the ladder. Anyway it seems like he was just having some fun so let him.
It sure as hell will if he's gaining 20 points when he wins and loses 2 when he loses. Anyway though, I really don't see the point of doing this, seems dumb.
|
The only scandal in this is that ppl dont realise that Choya would have won those matches aynways.
He is a Class S GSL Player and will mostlikely rip up everyone in his devision. So he decided to offer his oponnents to RPS about outcome of the game for w/e reason and THEY AGREE TO TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET A FREE WIN AGAINST HIM. If they didnt agree, they could have just played him and still lose...
|
On January 13 2011 22:11 RetFan wrote:
Actually confusedcrib, when you first sign up for Teamliquid, some of the first rules are that THIS IS OUR HOUSE AND WE HAVE OUR RULES. I am certainly very wary of what to post on these forums, especially if it is against the views of a moderator.
How you define community is very important. The Starcraft II community extends way beyond the confines of the TL community. Here, the target demographic may take laddering and rankings very seriously.
However, between a group of 12-13 year olds who have never heard of TL, this may be completely irrelevant. They just want to have fun and do what they want. Why should one community, or even select members of the community have the right to impose what people should and shouldn't do based on their views? As enzym said, why does everyone have to take the ladder seriously? Because you say so?
You're not going to agree no matter what anyone says so this is all pointless but: Nazgul is saying his opinion, and what I glean from it is:
Ladder is important to tournament level players
Choya is a tournament level player
Therefore Choya should not cheat on the ladder, because it's like a tournament
And you don't have any arguments, besides:
a. What he is doing is legal and
b. We shouldn't impose our opinions on people
Oh, and your whole, "Oh god Nazgul please don't ban me for disagreeing with you" thing is unnecessary, realize that if your argument is actually respectful, he has no reason to ban you; never mind the pandering BS.
|
Could be practising for GSL and ex. if he was to meet a Zerg, he would just ask for rock, scissor, paper any non-zerg he meets.
|
On January 13 2011 22:03 PartyBiscuit wrote:
It is GSL related because he is a GSL player.
It is a scandal because he is abusing the system.
It matters because the ladder does matter for some tourneys.
As long as this player's ladder rating has no effect for his path through the tournament it is a non-issue for that tournament. The tournament could have a rule requiring players to behave in certain ways even outside of that tournament and it would then be on the player to decide whether he wants to accept such restrictions and be a messenger of esports or not participate in the tournament.
If the GSL has such a rule and Choya was aware of that then maybe you can talk of somewhat of a scandal and call for reprehension or disqualification. Otherwise it's only the player's image that suffers and it's up to Choya to decide what he wants his reputation to be.
On January 13 2011 22:16 confusedcrib wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:11 RetFan wrote:
Actually confusedcrib, when you first sign up for Teamliquid, some of the first rules are that THIS IS OUR HOUSE AND WE HAVE OUR RULES. I am certainly very wary of what to post on these forums, especially if it is against the views of a moderator.
How you define community is very important. The Starcraft II community extends way beyond the confines of the TL community. Here, the target demographic may take laddering and rankings very seriously.
However, between a group of 12-13 year olds who have never heard of TL, this may be completely irrelevant. They just want to have fun and do what they want. Why should one community, or even select members of the community have the right to impose what people should and shouldn't do based on their views? As enzym said, why does everyone have to take the ladder seriously? Because you say so? You're not going to agree no matter what anyone says so this is all pointless but: Nazgul is saying his opinion, and what I glean from it is: Ladder is important to tournament level players Choya is a tournament level player Therefore Choya should not cheat on the ladder, because it's like a tournament And you don't have any arguments, besides: a. What he is doing is legal and b. We shouldn't impose our opinions on people Oh, and your whole, "Oh god Nazgul please don't ban me for disagreeing with you" thing is unnecessary, realize that if your argument is actually respectful, he has no reason to ban you; never mind the pandering BS.
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before.
|
On January 13 2011 22:06 confusedcrib wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
. Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community.
actually, you're wrong. teamliquid moderators will warn or ban you for posting stuff the mods don't agree with. on the day9 state of the game thread, i wrote my honest opinion that although day9's intentions for making sc2 into esports is credible, before sc2 can be popularized as an esport, the game itself has to undergo major improvements to make it an entertaining game that is more balanced, better maps, and more conducive to long, macro games with stuff going on everywhere in the map like bw.
and guess what? i get warned for being a bw vs sc2 troll.
also, i just found out today but if you talk about kpop or anything not related to msl day 3 in a msl day 3 thread, you will get warned/banned. so in the TL forums, you can't really talk about certain stuff unless you want to get warned/banned.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
What he is doing is legal he cannot get into jail for it. He can how ever get his account deleted. And to be honest if i was a manager and one of my employees did this he would be into serious trouble.
This makes him look bad, his team, and by default his sponsors. Was it illegal? no. >as it stupid... Yes
|
@Confused crib
Of course, I simply feel that Liquid Nazgul is not objectively thinking about this with a cool head.
There is nothing stopping a tournament containing rules that have a provision that expressly states that 'players who collude in ladder games are not allowed to participate in the tournament'.
Simple and efficient
EDIT: Looks like you actually wrote the same things before this message was posted :D
|
I'm unsure why this is a "scandal". choya isn't win trading or anything. He's just asking opponent hey want to play rock paper scissors instead of starcraft. Where is the abuse? If he wins more than 50% of his ladder games, this hurts him.
Let's say Gom was going to take the top 5 players on the ladder for Code B. how would anyone get to the top 5 playing rock paper scissor? If he did manage to get to the top 5 using just rock paper scissors, it would be complete luck, akin to if a player made top 5 because all of his opponents gets dropped coincidentally. But you wouldn't dispute that the player is in the top 5 legitimately if all his opponents did legitimately get dropped.
If choya was win trading, liking paying players to lose or something, then that's completely different, but that isnt the case here. I'm surprised he got any sort of warning. In fact labeling this as a scandal probably did more to hurt esports then him doing this rps thing.
|
On January 13 2011 22:11 RetFan wrote:
However, between a group of 12-13 year olds who have never heard of TL, this may be completely irrelevant. They just want to have fun and do what they want. Why should one community, or even select members of the community have the right to impose what people should and shouldn't do based on their views? As enzym said, why does everyone have to take the ladder seriously? Because you say so?
The discussion here is not for 'a group of 12-13 year olds who have never heard of TL', but for a group that values this game and esports highly.
No one is imposing anything here, step down from your tower, your highness. Everyone agrees that the ladder system isn't perfect, but saying what he did is perfectly fine is just going to bring more abuse of this or other flaws in the design, which then will bring more negative points to esports and how they are valued throughout the world.
The discussion is about sportsmanship and fair play. If Choya was any ordinary Joe, this wouldn't be such a 'big' deal. He's a progamer - would you still watch your favorite sport if the professional players do something that is not considered professional and harms how the sport itself is valued with the people?
|
On January 13 2011 22:21 kwkwookw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:06 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
. Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community. also, i just found out today but if you talk about kpop or anything not related to msl day 3 in a msl day 3 thread, you will get warned/banned. so in the TL forums, you can't really talk about certain stuff unless you want to get warned/banned.
This is common sense. if the topic is MSL, you don't talk about Kpop. Go to the kpop thread if you want to talk about that.
I'm pretty sure you worded what you wrote before that completely differently in the thread you got a warning for. Link to thread please.
|
Rofl i thought this was about the fact every build he does can loose so easily to scouting
|
On January 13 2011 22:24 Mandalor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:21 kwkwookw wrote:On January 13 2011 22:06 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
. Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community. also, i just found out today but if you talk about kpop or anything not related to msl day 3 in a msl day 3 thread, you will get warned/banned. so in the TL forums, you can't really talk about certain stuff unless you want to get warned/banned. This is common sense. if the topic is MSL, you don't talk about Kpop. Go to the kpop thread if you want to talk about that. I'm pretty sure you worded what you wrote before that completely differently in the thread you got a warning for. Link to thread please.
It was during a long commercial break when kpop was on the stream and the topic on hand was about kpop in the thread (everyone was talking about it at that point). So to someone unfamiliar to tl rules, it wasn't "common sense" at the time. You say it's common sense but that's from your perspective b/c it certainly wasn't for me, and for the 20 other ppl talking about it too.
You can look up the day9 post looking at my profile history.
|
I think it's fine, if Blizzard makes it easy to abuse, then they should not use the ladder to qualify tournaments. There wasn't any rule specifying you couldn't play rock paper scissors inside the game.
In my opinion it's not worse than all the foreigners who dodged / kicked out of their games every single korean they encountered during the TSL2 ladder qualification. Their wasn't any rule saying you couldn't ban koreans of your game, so they banned the koreans. Only Idra / White-ra / Ret and a couple of others didn't ban the koreans. So lame 
(don't misunderstand me, the TSL2 was the greatest foreign tournament EVER, it's just that the situation for me is pretty comparable, Choyafou is just getting quicker wins with a 50% ratio, while TSLers who dodge koreans were getting easier games)
Also the fact using the ladder to qualify tournaments not long after the release of the game makes me think about this haha :
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/blogitems.php?site=pgt&page=15
Boonbag aka oTTeR, a french Brood war player who bought in 1999 for 50$ a top128 ladder account to qualify to the KBK tournament in Korea (equivalent to the GSL back then). His story is amazing and the link I put is only the first blog of the series. A must read for sure !
|
On January 13 2011 22:31 kwkwookw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:24 Mandalor wrote:On January 13 2011 22:21 kwkwookw wrote:On January 13 2011 22:06 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
. Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community. also, i just found out today but if you talk about kpop or anything not related to msl day 3 in a msl day 3 thread, you will get warned/banned. so in the TL forums, you can't really talk about certain stuff unless you want to get warned/banned. This is common sense. if the topic is MSL, you don't talk about Kpop. Go to the kpop thread if you want to talk about that. I'm pretty sure you worded what you wrote before that completely differently in the thread you got a warning for. Link to thread please. It was during a long commercial break when kpop was on the stream and the topic on hand was about kpop in the thread (everyone was talking about it at that point). So to someone unfamiliar to tl rules, it wasn't "common sense" at the time. You say it's common sense but that's from your perspective b/c it certainly wasn't for me, and for the 20 other ppl talking about it too. You can look up the day9 post looking at my profile history.
That seems quite unfair, there's been a fair share of kpop/music talk in the GSL threads.
|
wait... this means there are a lot of ppl that agreed to play RPS with him.
|
On January 13 2011 22:21 kwkwookw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:06 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
. Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community. actually, you're wrong. teamliquid moderators will warn or ban you for posting stuff the mods don't agree with. on the day9 state of the game thread, i wrote my honest opinion that although day9's intentions for making sc2 into esports is credible, before sc2 can be popularized as an esport, the game itself has to undergo major improvements to make it an entertaining game that is more balanced, better maps, and more conducive to long, macro games with stuff going on everywhere in the map like bw. and guess what? i get warned for being a bw vs sc2 troll. also, i just found out today but if you talk about kpop or anything not related to msl day 3 in a msl day 3 thread, you will get warned/banned. so in the TL forums, you can't really talk about certain stuff unless you want to get warned/banned.
One of those things is posting that you're going to get banned for what you're saying. If you wish it to be so, a mod will gladly comply to a request to ban you.
Cheating is cheating, even if it's irrelevant to the tournaments choya is in. I'm honestly shocked he'd do something like this -.- It gives e-sports a terrible image, too.
|
Doesn't seem like "scandal" material to me. Maybe slap on the wrist material.
|
in my opinion, some common game abuse (like for exemple the build/cancel pylon to be able to go though a tight walloff or the clic on mineral to make workers ignore colisions) are much more amoral than asking a oponent to leave.
yes those are often patched by blizzard (and to me it's the proof of their amorality) but used by a toon of people until their are patched. and people say they use it just cause they can and it's not patched yet, or cause the same kind of thing were common in BW, and a lot of people agree with them.
i think this kind of abuse is more damaging than leader abuse because we actualy see them in tournament.
yes leader abuse is bad, it can give you access to tournament that you wouldn't normaly be allowed into, but well if you must cheat your way to a tournament then you will probably be crushed hard in it.
i'm all for the completely fair play but i'm pointing it's often hard to decide the thing that are fair play from the thing that are cheating/abusing.
|
Did he do anything outside of the rules?
|
I've been active in many different individual and team competitions and I can only give this a thumbs down. It's bad sportsmanship when an individual takes it upon himself to ignore the commonly agreed rules of playing a competition. Even the rules that are not written down should be uphold.
I've never read Blizzard's Code of Conduct or any other legal notice that was presented to me prior to joining the ladder, but I know trading wins by using rock-paper-scissors is wrong. And how do I know that, common sense morality.
|
On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before.
I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition.
It also extends to the TSL because according to that argument we should have allowed abusers to play in our tournaments.
|
I don't see why so many people think this is cheating. He is not playing outside the rules of the ladder system and he's not doing anything to benefit him.
If 4 Code S players on the same team occupied the ladder ranks 1-4, and then intentionally forfeited their games against their teammate to get him to rank 5 so GOM will select him for Code B, that is suspicious and people would throw fits. This is obviously cheating. Messing around on ladder is not cheating. But you know honestly, I think even this obviously unethical situation isn't stopped by the Blizzard's ToS. they might just ban him because blizzard can ban him for any reason, but they won't be able to say we banned him for violating the rules until they change the ToS.
What choya is doing is neither professional or unprofessional. He is just having fun messing around. Professional basketball players do this fairly commonly. They'll join some local tournament, many with cash prizes, and just have fun and mess around the people there.
|
On January 13 2011 22:31 kwkwookw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:24 Mandalor wrote:On January 13 2011 22:21 kwkwookw wrote:On January 13 2011 22:06 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
. Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community. also, i just found out today but if you talk about kpop or anything not related to msl day 3 in a msl day 3 thread, you will get warned/banned. so in the TL forums, you can't really talk about certain stuff unless you want to get warned/banned. This is common sense. if the topic is MSL, you don't talk about Kpop. Go to the kpop thread if you want to talk about that. I'm pretty sure you worded what you wrote before that completely differently in the thread you got a warning for. Link to thread please. It was during a long commercial break when kpop was on the stream and the topic on hand was about kpop in the thread (everyone was talking about it at that point). So to someone unfamiliar to tl rules, it wasn't "common sense" at the time. You say it's common sense but that's from your perspective b/c it certainly wasn't for me, and for the 20 other ppl talking about it too. You can look up the day9 post looking at my profile history.
you know what, I actually did.
you called day9 a "sc2 fanboi". nuff said.
|
Blizzard didn't set a great precedent when they knew people were trading bronze league wins for profile pictures and let that slide. This is even lamer than that.
One of the things that eventually sucked about SC/BW was the deterioration of the ladder. I've enjoyed how so far SC2 ladder has been a reasonable reflection of talent(most of the top players are high on the ladder across all regions) and the integrity of the ladder has been kept in tact so far. The more important the ladder is and the more it matters the better for the game since everyone can follow it, learn who new emerging players are, and make it a goal to try to move up the ladder. When it falls apart the game will be less enjoyable to follow, harder to identify new talent, and lose some of the fun competitive feel.
Crap like this shouldn't be tolerated because if a known player with a Code S will do this shit others certainly will with less to lose and then the slipper slope starts.
|
On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition.
Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway.
|
On January 13 2011 17:28 Plexa wrote:
Oh perhaps he did it trying to cover up his match history? idk.
That makes a lot of sense to me...
|
On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition. Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway.
He's gaining points faster, imagine how many games, and thus points you go through playing 1 minute RPS games
|
On January 13 2011 23:10 confusedcrib wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition. Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway. He's gaining points faster, imagine how many games, and thus points you go through playing 1 minute RPS games
I'm fairly certain the ladder is about amount of points, and not how fast you get them.
|
On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:
Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway.
Ladder is not only about winning a % of your matches it's also about putting in your time to climb it. They are wintrading to rise up the ladder quicker, the fact that he would have won them anyway actually doesn't matter. It's an argument that was sometimes brought up during the TSL abuse as well; Dimaga, Advocate, F91 were all tremendous players. EASILY good enough to qualify, and I really mean easily. They didn't put in the time, fell behind, resorted to win trading to make it into the required spots. They would have made it anyway if they had put in the time. Doesn't matter. It's not about how good you are it's about the process you go through to show this.
Again though, and I seemingly have to repeat this over and over, my whole argument is aimed at the people saying it is fine to wintrade if the ladder mechanics allow this process (but the rules don't). I am not talking about Choya because what he did is actually very minor since it had no influence on anything important.
|
How is that possible? I have always won as many points as I have lost, most of the time, without the bonus pool ofc.
Edit: Also I thought Blizzard used the MMR to pick ppl for their tournaments anyway (and maybe GOM as well, since they are partners with Blizz).
|
On January 13 2011 23:12 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:10 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition. Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway. He's gaining points faster, imagine how many games, and thus points you go through playing 1 minute RPS games I'm fairly certain the ladder is about amount of points, and not how fast you get them.
The faster you get them, the more you will have.
If a typical game takes approximately 10 minutes, but an RPS game takes like, 1 minute or less, then you can fit, of course, approximately 10 games in the time it would take you to finish 1. So you could get more points in 10 minutes doing RPS games than in 10 minutes that it takes to finish one game.
You will get more points if you get them faster, unless you don't do it often. Of course the more you win, the fewer points you are likely to get, so it isn't huge, plus not everyone will agree to it so it's not a huge destroyer of the ladder's integrity, but it still hurts it.
This kind of abuse makes me think a draw time period would be good, so that if a disconnect or sudden need to leave happens for one of the players, it doesn't hurt them and also so that abuse such as this will not be as lucrative for gaining/losing points. I'm not even sure why they don't have it.
|
lol I had someone asking me for this rock-paper-scissors today when laddering I was wondering what the fuck was wrong with him, makes more sense now
|
On January 13 2011 23:12 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:10 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition. Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway. He's gaining points faster, imagine how many games, and thus points you go through playing 1 minute RPS games I'm fairly certain the ladder is about amount of points, and not how fast you get them.
I'm a 1900 diamond, go ahead and ask anyone how much that means right now vs a month after launch. The ladder is all about how fast you get there, because the people at the top are always rising. I'm having trouble grasping how you don't understand this.
|
I don't think this is a big deal. First of all, all the people you play with are random, so you can't realistically give free wins. It's really up to the players to decide if they want to play a normal game of starcraft or just do this because you can't force them to play out a match. There is no difference between this and agreeing to have one person drone rush and the other person hold position. It's too difficult to gauge the intentions of the players when there are so many games.
I do agree that this can mess up real stuff like GSL invites or top 200 lists, etc. but I think in those cases, whoever's compiling the list or doing the invites should take a look at match history.
|
I wish I could do this for all my PvP matches since it's basically rock paper scissors anyways.
|
On January 13 2011 23:25 arterian wrote:
I wish I could do this for all my PvP matches since it's basically rock paper scissors anyways.
You should just 4gate every PvP, it's like the atomic bomb in RPS.
|
On January 13 2011 23:15 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:
Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway. Ladder is not only about winning a % of your matches it's also about putting in your time to climb it. They are wintrading to rise up the ladder quicker, the fact that he would have won them anyway actually doesn't matter. It's an argument that was sometimes brought up during the TSL abuse as well; Dimaga, Advocate, F91 were all tremendous players. EASILY good enough to qualify, and I really mean easily. They didn't put in the time, fell behind, resorted to win trading to make it into the required spots. They would have made it anyway if they had put in the time. Doesn't matter. It's not about how good you are it's about the process you go through to show this.
I think it should be about being good at Starcraft 2. Setting arbitrary standards like "you have put time in" or "you have to be mannered" and calling foul play just because they are our standards is twisted.
My point is not that he on code S and would have beat everyone without a sweat - come on, it's choya. It's that if Blizzard introduces a dumb system (hidden rating) the players have the right to play it as they wish, as long as within the rules. Winning by the opponent leaving is within the rules.
I understand how frustrating it is to have like, HuK battling his way to 2 accounts in the top five then a scrub RPSing to the top, but to call it a scandal and ask for punishment is ridiculous.
On January 13 2011 23:19 RageOverdose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:12 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 23:10 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition. Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway. He's gaining points faster, imagine how many games, and thus points you go through playing 1 minute RPS games I'm fairly certain the ladder is about amount of points, and not how fast you get them. The faster you get them, the more you will have. If a typical game takes approximately 10 minutes, but an RPS game takes like, 1 minute or less, then you can fit, of course, approximately 10 games in the time it would take you to finish 1. So you could get more points in 10 minutes doing RPS games than in 10 minutes that it takes to finish one game. You will get more points if you get them faster, unless you don't do it often. Of course the more you win, the fewer points you are likely to get, so it isn't huge, plus not everyone will agree to it so it's not a huge destroyer of the ladder's integrity, but it still hurts it. This kind of abuse makes me think a draw time period would be good, so that if a disconnect or sudden need to leave happens for one of the players, it doesn't hurt them and also so that abuse such as this will not be as lucrative for gaining/losing points. I'm not even sure why they don't have it.
You don't understand the ladder.
Draw time would allow opponent dodging.
On January 13 2011 23:22 confusedcrib wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:12 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 23:10 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition. Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway. He's gaining points faster, imagine how many games, and thus points you go through playing 1 minute RPS games I'm fairly certain the ladder is about amount of points, and not how fast you get them. I'm a 1900 diamond, go ahead and ask anyone how much that means right now vs a month after launch. The ladder is all about how fast you get there, because the people at the top are always rising. I'm having trouble grasping how you don't understand this.
Once his points hits his true rating he would gain nothing from this.
|
|
|
On January 13 2011 17:25 Plexa wrote:
What is the point in this? What does he stand to gain from getting high in the ladder when he's already a Code S player?
Yeah seriously... So he's just having some fun with it, whatever, not like he's cheating to get into a tournament.
|
On January 13 2011 23:48 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 17:25 Plexa wrote:
What is the point in this? What does he stand to gain from getting high in the ladder when he's already a Code S player? Yeah seriously... So he's just having some fun with it, whatever, not like he's cheating to get into a tournament.
Ya he was having so much fun he had to apologize for it! He obviously found out he was doing something wrong, it's just another way to abuse the system. Just play the game how it's suppose to be played... everyone always looks for shortcuts... and that's when they get burned.*BURN NOISE*
|
On January 13 2011 23:44 Soap wrote:
I think it should be about being good at Starcraft 2. Setting arbitrary standards like "you have put time in" or "you have to be mannered" and calling foul play just because they are our standards is twisted.
My point is not that he on code S and would have beat everyone without a sweat - come on, it's choya. It's that if Blizzard introduces a dumb system (hidden rating) the players have the right to play it as they wish, as long as within the rules. Winning by the opponent leaving is within the rules.
I understand how frustrating it is to have like, HuK battling his way to 2 accounts in the top five then a scrub RPSing to the top, but to call it a scandal and ask for punishment is ridiculous.
You can put everything aside as an arbitrary standard, but it is commonly accepted that ladders are about actually playing, and not just speculation on who is a good player. If you don't play any games in a ladder you shouldn't be ranked high. If you want to see ranking where people speculate on who is good just read our power rank.
|
On January 13 2011 23:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:44 Soap wrote:
I think it should be about being good at Starcraft 2. Setting arbitrary standards like "you have put time in" or "you have to be mannered" and calling foul play just because they are our standards is twisted.
My point is not that he on code S and would have beat everyone without a sweat - come on, it's choya. It's that if Blizzard introduces a dumb system (hidden rating) the players have the right to play it as they wish, as long as within the rules. Winning by the opponent leaving is within the rules.
I understand how frustrating it is to have like, HuK battling his way to 2 accounts in the top five then a scrub RPSing to the top, but to call it a scandal and ask for punishment is ridiculous.
You can put everything aside as an arbitrary standard, but it is commonly accepted that ladders are about actually playing, and not just speculation on who is a good player. If you don't play any games in a ladder you shouldn't be ranked high. If you want to see ranking where people speculate on who is good just read our power rank.
Why would it be speculative? Sadly we have to wait for other players to get their points back after promotion to Masters, but that's Blizzard's fault.
|
On January 13 2011 23:57 Utinni wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:48 GreEny K wrote:On January 13 2011 17:25 Plexa wrote:
What is the point in this? What does he stand to gain from getting high in the ladder when he's already a Code S player? Yeah seriously... So he's just having some fun with it, whatever, not like he's cheating to get into a tournament. Ya he was having so much fun he had to apologize for it! He obviously found out he was doing something wrong, it's just another way to abuse the system. Just play the game how it's suppose to be played... everyone always looks for shortcuts... and that's when they get burned.*BURN NOISE*
He's an S class player... He apologized because people like you think it's a big deal when it really isn't and he didn't want his fanbase to decline for something so trivial.
|
Its a bit dishonest, whatever the relevance of ladder, its Starcraft, and your supposed to win by playing Starcraft, not by playing rock paper scissors.
Maybe choya should try for a pro RPS league.
|
Sad, I always liked him for being such a baller with carriers in GSL
|
there is no money on the line and noone gets harmed... so i don't think its a scandal...
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
This was actually the best post in this thread lol.
|
On January 13 2011 17:28 SenorChang wrote:
Don't see how this even matters lol
Same...
|
they dont make scandals like they used to
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
lmao. so true. Leather Jacket IdrA has spoken.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2VTvc.jpg)
|
I guess it is a scandal every time doesn't try their best or experiments with new strategies on the ladder too, since they weren't trying to do everything they could to give themselves the highest chance to win.
|
On January 14 2011 00:57 robertdinh wrote:
I guess it is a scandal every time doesn't try their best or experiments with new strategies on the ladder too, since they weren't trying to do everything they could to give themselves the highest chance to win.
What? Really? Try reading the quote from Nazgul in the OP. This is a scandal because while it may seem innocent, it is still abusing the system.
I really don't understand why a player who is already in the biggest SC2 tournament would try to mess around like this. If he feels like playing rock paper scissors, I'm sure there's a custom map for that. If he feels like playing Starcraft, then he can stick to ladder games.
|
On January 14 2011 00:57 robertdinh wrote:
I guess it is a scandal every time doesn't try their best or experiments with new strategies on the ladder too, since they weren't trying to do everything they could to give themselves the highest chance to win.
coming to you next week, the gsl season 4 final where our two players will pause the game 15 seconds after it starts, then play rps in a bo7 to determine who wins 85k USD!
not comparable? perhaps, but seriously this kid is trying to game the system since you retardedly gain way more than you lose in terms of points subsequent to a win or loss respectively.
I've seen people do this kind of stuff at MTG pro quals. It's not like they wont do it if you turn a blind eye.
|
Yet another achievements farmer !
|
On January 14 2011 00:57 robertdinh wrote:
I guess it is a scandal every time doesn't try their best or experiments with new strategies on the ladder too, since they weren't trying to do everything they could to give themselves the highest chance to win.
wow. bad.
|
This doesn't seem relevant.
|
I guess he was just getting bored and wanted to play Rock Paper Scissors. Hes pretty good at it too it seems.
|
Wow, those topics are becoming more and more silly every day. Who the hell cares about a guy that does such things on ladder. What is so bad about it? It is his account, he can do whatever he want with it.
|
On January 14 2011 01:11 raidmaster wrote:
Wow, those topics are becoming more and more silly every day. Who the hell cares about a guy that does such things on ladder. What is so bad about it? It is his account, he can do whatever he want with it.
He represents more than himself. He represents his team, sponsors and E-sports in general. He can't do whatever he wants. He should be acting professional...at the very least not abuse a system which some leagues and tournies use to rate players. He is code S... yes. Is he gonna win GSL? Nope... People need other tourneys and leagues to play in to have a chance to win some cash
|
Damn, this became a featured community news? Really, some people are having fun creating drama out of nothing.
|
Its funny I was actually playing Choya the other day.
I opened with scissors, with the view of later transitioning into paper. It was just a shame that he hard countered my opener with rock before my late game plans were able to unfold...
...Drumroll please...
-.-"
|
This thread is proof that TL.Net consists of a bunch of drama queens.
Quoting the only post that actually matters in this thread:
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
|
On January 14 2011 00:33 Krehlmar wrote:Sad, I always liked him for being such a baller with carriers in GSL
That was Hongun.
|
On January 14 2011 01:43 Ry0ftw wrote:
Its funny I was actually playing Choya the other day.
I opened with scissors, with the view of later transitioning into paper. It was just a shame that he hard countered my opener with rock before my late game plans were able to unfold...
...Drumroll please...
-.-"
I lol'ed.
|
United States5162 Posts
Isn't this more an issue with how the Master's League was implemented? All the players(or at least a significant majority) had their points reset to a level that was much below their MMR, which is what is causing players to gain many more points for a win then they lose for a loss. It will be that way until players' displayed points stabilizes at a level around their hidden MMR.
|
On January 14 2011 02:58 Myles wrote:
Isn't this more an issue with how the Master's League was implemented? All the players(or at least a significant majority) had their points reset to a level that was much below their MMR, which is what is causing players to gain many more points for a win then they lose for a loss. It will be that way until players' displayed points stabilizes at a level around their hidden MMR.
The flaws in the current Masters' League do allow for this specific abuse I believe, so Blizzard is responsible for fixing the system, but players should also be responsible for their own integrity. Anything less is an affront to sportsmanship and should not be condoned.
|
This is a little vague... Did he actually pause with all his opponents or just the one's he knew from his team house? I don't see how this is a huge deal, tbqh... probably annoying as hell if you don't even know who choya is and just want to ladder though.
|
I could really care less about this and I think people are just upset because they want something to be upset about.
But how is RPS played? Surely there's a split second between each player typing their choice. Doesn't this allow someone with fast hands to cheat?
|
i really had to laugh :D this is actually so cool, wanna do that on ladder too :D this is actually the best and most funny way to show blizzard that their system doesnt work
|
I would probably have more of an issue with this if it wasn't for the the whole hidden rating thing and point's being dropped when you get into masters league. So while I don't think it's good that people do things like this I guess I find it more acceptable right now with people working back towards their hidden rating though even then I don't think it should be something they should be able to do.
|
ladders shouldnt have prestige involved.
it's that simple.
while ladder was a good way to separate the excelent pros from the rest, nowadays it just shouldnt matter anymore, at least for you pros out there.
leagues on the other hand are the way to go to prove yourselves.
it's still too early to call in blizzard on this. I dont see abuse for the casual players. say the game is long, boring, both players need to leave and agree to roll for it -- i dont see a problem at all.
keep practicing. join open tourneys. make a name for yourself. get invited to IH tourneys. ????. get rich.
TLDR: screw ladder!
|
I still love Choya for talking to himself excitedly in the booth. That being said, the rock paper scissors thing is kind of silly. Dont know why he would do that...
|
i think this is pretty clever tbh, in a fun way.
if blizzard wanted to, they could of counted out games that ended before the 3-4 minute line, prevent this and give the opponent a chance to just rush him and win while he types or something
|
On January 13 2011 17:40 Cambam wrote:
Just a quick and efficient way to get his displayed rating up to his hidden rating (MMR), because of the master leauge reset. And it looks like it worked, he is #1 on KR ladder at the moment.
It will stop working once his displayed rating reaches his hidden rating. Read Excalibur_Z's thread on how the ladder system works.
Here's a quick rundown:
Let's say he gets promoted to masters and reset to 2400 displayed rating. Meanwhile, we'll say his MMR is 3000. He plays a game against IMNestea who is also 2400 displayed, 3000 MMR (hypothetically).
IMNestea will appear favored to choya and choya will appear favored to IMNestea. This is because the favored system works by comparing your opponents HIDDEN rating to your DISPLAYED rating. Thus:
IMNestea's HIDDEN rating of 3000 > choya's DISPLAYED rating of 2400
and vice versa.
Everyone will be favored to choya (and thus give +20~ and -5~) until his displayed rating catches up to his hidden rating.
Hope that made sense. It's just choya's clever way of skyrocketing to the top of the ladder faster than everyone else. But like I said, it will stop working eventually.
I posted this on the 2nd page, but everyone seemed to miss it. While the ethics of the rock-paper-scissors thing is still debatable, you don't have to worry about him being the unfair king of the ladder. He's not. He just boosted his displayed rating faster than everyone else. Everyone else will catch up (and pass him, if they're better) very soon. He's already 4th instead of 1st.
|
What?!
I don 't understand what the point of this is. Nobody cares about progamers' ladder positions... The only possible outcomes are nobody finds out and nobody cares that he's a bit higher on ladder, or people do find out and they stop cheering for him (and possibly he gets banned for cheating, not sure on the TOS there).
No good outcome possible. God that guy's an idiot.
|
kind of lame, but its not like it matters in the slightest
|
I bet he did it because everyone says sc2 is a game of rock paper scissors anyway.
|
Bad rep to choya i guess, but hopefully he and other players will learn from this
|
Ok, this actually isn't bad at all. When good players were promoted to masters league, they dropped from ~3k+ points to 2.3k but kept their same MMR of ~3k+. The ladder system awards points based on your current points compared to your opponent's MMR, so good players now have 2.3k points and are matching against opponents with 3k+ MMR, so both sides see the other as favored. This +20 for win and -1 for loss every game seems weird, but what it really will do is return players' points to their MMR very quickly. As soon as their points return to the neighborhood of their MMR, the system will return to operating as usual. Players can rock-paper-scissors their points back to their MMR if they want, but they won't be able to go any higher.
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
Oh burn.
But it's not as fast haha.
I think this is a bit much to label this "scandal" or "abuse." The fact that he actually got people to go along with it is funnier.
|
On January 13 2011 17:25 Plexa wrote:
What is the point in this? What does he stand to gain from getting high in the ladder when he's already a Code S player?
It may be that whenever he drew another protoss he would suggest it. I saw cellawerra do the same thing when he got drawn against other zergs. A lot of pros see p v p and z v z as coinflips or intensely boring, so that may be why they decide to rock paper scissor.
I find this kinda funny it's being seen as a scandal.
|
He's just having fun on ladder, stop blowing up shit that isn't worth talking about
|
On Huk's stream, several of the oGs members are calling choyafOu a cheater. They're condeming his actions.
|
unless he used his ladder status for tournaments, i dont see a problem here
|
Canada11322 Posts
So the abuse starts already. Sure it might seem funny for choya because he's already in Code S, but it doesn't set the standard very high for anyone else. Particularly as they're starting to use ladder results to determine B Leagues.
Immediately, I thought of this link from Guybrush's BW histories:
http://web.archive.org/web/20011122033813/broodwar.com/comments/index.ihtml?id=1966
This is not a good start however 'funny' or 'lame scandal' this may be. We really don't want to go down this road.
On January 13 2011 23:44 Soap wrote:
It's that if Blizzard introduces a dumb system (hidden rating) the players have the right to play it as they wish, as long as within the rules. Winning by the opponent leaving is within the rules.
I'm pretty sure the reason why the rating system is hidden was specifically so that people couldn't game the system.
|
Anything that isn't playing your very bestest is apparently ladder abuse. If I decide to goof off in a game and give my opponent a free win? What if he's just cheesing? Same thing. Let me know when he's maphacking or dropping players.
|
if you ask me, it's nothing but a broken system made by blizz. Sure, ladder also reflects the eefort you put into it... on the other hand none of us wants a ladder where playing equally skilled opponents gives you mass points per win and almost no points per loss. However, this is the case with current points in the master league.
Hence, in this case, I'd solely blame the system and not the players exploiting it. A system where losing 3 out of 4 games will bring you ahead, is something none of us really want, I guess.
Fortunately, it's only a temporary issue. However, I don't get why points for Master-League players are set to such a low value in the first place. Maybe it is inteltionally to keep smurfs out of the high master league positions but aprt form that I have no valid explanation
|
I just find it hilarious and sad that people think trading wins a la Combat-Ex style is okay. People are already complaining that the ladder system doesn't accurately reflect on player's true skill and yet they're okay with letting players murk it up even more by trading wins? The mind boggles.
This is cheating; plain and simple. Cheating, in my opinion, is wrong and shouldn't be encouraged no matter how funny or pointless or harmless it may seem. This is abuse of the ladder system and that's wrong. It is impossible to create a perfect system with no loopholes. There will always be opportunities for abuse and there will always be idiots who want to use those loopholes. Blame Blizzard for making a shitty system, sure, but also blame the idiots for abusing that system, as well. I can find no justification for abusing the ladder system.
@Google: What do you mean by this is only a temporary issue?
|
Yeah I don't know why everybody cares, this is just pushing him up to the top of the ladder momentarily while his MMR drops. There is no benefit to playing extra games once your bonus pool is gone, because your displayed points will always move closer to your MMR. Since he is losing half of his games, most likely against people who have a lower MMR than him, he will be losing MMR points, and is only getting the +20 -5 because his Master's league points are nowhere near his MMR since everybody starts with the same points.
|
On January 14 2011 05:18 hoopaholik91 wrote:
Yeah I don't know why everybody cares, this is just pushing him up to the top of the ladder momentarily while his MMR drops. There is no benefit to playing extra games once your bonus pool is gone, because your displayed points will always move closer to your MMR. Since he is losing half of his games, most likely against people who have a lower MMR than him, he will be losing MMR points, and is only getting the +20 -5 because his Master's league points are nowhere near his MMR since everybody starts with the same points.
Exactly why it's being called temporary. People's points are still settling to where they need to be. And yeah he probably is screwing over his MMR.
|
United States10328 Posts
Lol, I can see why everyone would think this is insignificant or even ethically ok. It looks like the following arguments are going on:
1) "This is not abusing."
a) The opponents agree to it.
Rebuttal: Well of course they'll agree to it--both players are taking advantage of the system to get a net gain of points without playing any games. This doesn't change the fact that they are obtaining rating points in ways that they were not meant to.
b) You can decide to win points however you want.
Rebuttal: The point of the ladder is for you to obtain a rating based on your skill. Abusing goes against this purpose. We've seen abuse on the ladder in early BW tournaments and in the TSL.
If you don't see anything wrong with that, then maybe you shouldn't play any games on the ladder in the future.
c) "He's covering up his match history."
Rebuttal: This doesn't mean you can have BNet record rated games for you that you don't actually play. If anything just both go some dumb strategy every game (a la Idra's comment lol.)
2) "This abuse doesn't have any bearing on anything."
In choya's case, this doesn't matter since he is already Code S. Moreover, the Master League reset means his rating is well below his MMR, and he would like to regain it. ("This abusing has no effect.")
Rebuttal: Abusing the ladder in this way can only set a bad precedent for others, possibly leading to similar types of abuse in situations where it does matter (e.g. two people purposely splitting games to increase each other's ratings in order to qualify for a tournament), since ladder ranking does sometimes matter.
|
On the Topic of Blizzcon selection, I understand Softball is used by SEN, but did softball the "actual" actually earn the right to go to Blizzcon, or did Sen get him his ladder rating. Cuz Softball got crushed at blizzcon. SO technically someone can ghost an account and come to Korea and waste a spot for a deserving player. Thats the point I'm trying to make about ladder manipulation
"You Know What I'm Saying"
|
Any points system which does not use MMR is subject to abuse. This is not the fault of choya, but the fault of the system being hidden behind a completely pointless layer called points.
Seriously no more bonus pool, no more hidden ratings, we want to see our real ratings.
|
if everyone would do that pts inflation would be ridicoulous and regular players couldn't keep up. That's kinda lame
|
It's a little obnoxious but not the end of the world... This "scandal" also reveals some possible flaws in the b.net laddering system. It was also pretty foolish for choya to try and get away with dozens of matches < 1 minute long.
|
Would be great if Day analyzed these games in one of his dailies.
|
yeah... i'm surprised at how little is being done about this, seeing as what happened last time someone cheated in the ladder in Tsl2.... :/
Edit: However reading some posts i am starting to see the greater problem here... the ladder system. Isn't this another reason to reset ladder rankings?
|
I'm sorry nazgul, but I'm going to disagree with you on this.
I want to bring up a different but related example.
In chess, players receive a rating based on their performance. You can immediately estimate two players relative skill simply by examining their relative ratings. This is great, you can estimate your skill. To practice, clubs have in house tournaments and there are plenty of open tournaments which players can compete in monthly, however, there is a problem that used to exist. Players would play in in house tournaments and intentionally lose in order to lower their rating for an upcoming tournament and then sign up for the tournament in a lower bracket which greatly increased their chance of winning a prize. So how did they solve this? They changed it so that the brackets were based on your highest achieved rating. So let's say you kept your highest rating at 1550 in order to qualify and win for a U 1600 tournament. You might win this tournament, but in the process your rating would jump to 1650 and no longer be able to qualify for the tournament even if you lost.
In chess, people play for fun, to win tounaments and to improve their rating. Sometimes chess does have a problem of motivating players to play since they could lose rating, but people don't play chess to have a rating.
Starcraft 2 however relies on this system. They try to encourage people to play by offering them points and points are eventually accumulated until you have enough games to match your hidden rating. This system rewards playing a ton of ladder games and having a high mmr. If you already have a high mmr and the system constantly puts you against evenly matched players, then the points reward is only achieved by massing games.
If people in chess could get a higher rating simply by drawing every game, they would do so every time, no one would play any games. In chess there is no reward like that since you get 0 points for drawing against someone even. In premiere league football you only get 1 point for a draw, whereas if you try for a win you will average 1.5 points.
The sc2 ladder system is severely flawed. The system would be fine if they implemented a few changes.
1. Cut the bonus pool by 50-75%.
2. Change the system so that your points = hidden rating - bonus points unused.
This would mean that you could only mass a very small number of games (like 25 max) and that the ladder would be a better reflection of skill.
Even halo 3 uses ladder system, a fps game, uses a better rating system than sc2.
|
On January 14 2011 06:05 TheNessman wrote:
yeah... i'm surprised at how little is being done about this, seeing as what happened last time someone cheated in the ladder in Tsl2.... :/
Edit: However reading some posts i am starting to see the greater problem here... the ladder system. Isn't this another reason to reset ladder rankings?
If they reset ladder rankings then the only difference is the number of games they would have to play to reach their peak. Anyone who doesn't win trade would be automatically lower on the ladder.
|
On January 13 2011 17:25 Plexa wrote:
What is the point in this? What does he stand to gain from getting high in the ladder when he's already a Code S player?
portraits.
|
What I don't understand is, if you wanna go up in ladder quickly, why choose that method ?
I mean, if for each opponent you gotta explain you're going "rock paper scissor" or whatever, the time it takes for you to explain that !"#¤, check that the opponent agrees, and event if he says he does doublecheck that he aint playing a standard game etc....would probably take as much time to double proxy gate every opponent on every map, with pbbly the same success rate (pbbly more since the guy got some skills). I mean rock paper scissors, its a 50/50 thing isn't it? Who goes on top of the ladder with a 50% win rate ? The guy must have been reaaaaaallly bored....
|
On January 14 2011 06:25 Eurekastreet wrote:
What I don't understand is, if you wanna go up in ladder quickly, why choose that method ?
I mean, if for each opponent you gotta explain you're going "rock paper scissor" or whatever, the time it takes for you to explain that !"#¤, check that the opponent agrees, and event if he says he does doublecheck that he aint playing a standard game etc....would probably take as much time to double proxy gate every opponent on every map, with pbbly the same success rate (pbbly more since the guy got some skills). I mean rock paper scissors, its a 50/50 thing isn't it? Who goes on top of the ladder with a 50% win rate ? The guy must have been reaaaaaallly bored....
The reason it works is because the matchmaking system matches you against people of similar skill ie those whom the system expects you to win against 50% of the time anyway.
|
On January 14 2011 04:58 Falling wrote:So the abuse starts already. Sure it might seem funny for choya because he's already in Code S, but it doesn't set the standard very high for anyone else. Particularly as they're starting to use ladder results to determine B Leagues. Immediately, I thought of this link from Guybrush's BW histories: http://web.archive.org/web/20011122033813/broodwar.com/comments/index.ihtml?id=1966This is not a good start however 'funny' or 'lame scandal' this may be. We really don't want to go down this road. Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:44 Soap wrote:
It's that if Blizzard introduces a dumb system (hidden rating) the players have the right to play it as they wish, as long as within the rules. Winning by the opponent leaving is within the rules.
I'm pretty sure the reason why the rating system is hidden was specifically so that people couldn't game the system.
The rating system is hidden so you can feel good about yourself as you gain points by playing a ton of games.
|
Its only not a big deal because choya doesn't really have anything to gain from this other than being able to brag about having the biggest virtual dick, but if he was using this to qualify for a tournament or get to go to Blizzcon (in some regions they did invites based on ladder) then he would and should be tarred and feathered.
|
Well WC3 had same kind of thing.. Top ladder players when reached lvl 50 (around month after Sweet was first to reach lvl 50) then they started trading wins.
|
Isn't this all due to the fundamental flaw of Blizzard's rating system? Ranking is almost exclusively based upon number of games played instead of actual skill. If ELO system was introduced or some variant of it (zero sum, where loser loses the same points the winner wins), this certainly wouldn't happen and rating would start to mean something.
It amazes me that tournaments, such as GSL or Blizzard actually uses the meaningless rating to decide upon such important things as invites to tournaments.
|
This has been blown wayy out of proportion.
My biggest question is: So even if you play a fair game of rock/paper/scissors, why would the loser leave?
Maybe it would work in top pro level with more famous players who have integrity, but with random people on the internet? Seriously, no one on the internet is nice. If they win, they win, if they lose, they play a straight up game.
Kinda stupid if you ask me.
|
Other people don't seem to see it the same way, but I see this kind of "abuse" as a decent way to illustrate how Blizzard might improve the ladder system more than anything else.
After all, what kind of ladder system rewards players for playing games randomly? The "outrage" probably should not be so much pointed in choyafOu's direction as aimed at the designers of the ladder system. There are a lot of ways to avoid this sort of problem systematically. Probably simply ditching this system of points and exposing the MMR ranks directly (assuming that they're computed in a manner which is at all sane) would be a great way to start. Games which end too quickly or with no units lost by either player could also be ignored by the system (though that's not really foolproof on its own). Just assigning points to wins and losses in a saner manner would be another reasonable way to go.
Don't be angry with people who game the system, be angry with the system for needlessly being game-able in the first place.
|
This is sooo funny holy shit i think all pro gamers should start doing it for shits and giggles
|
On January 14 2011 07:15 Warp wrote:
This has been blown wayy out of proportion.
My biggest question is: So even if you play a fair game of rock/paper/scissors, why would the loser leave?
Maybe it would work in top pro level with more famous players who have integrity, but with random people on the internet? Seriously, no one on the internet is nice. If they win, they win, if they lose, they play a straight up game.
Kinda stupid if you ask me.
I'm also wondering this. Scandal sure is a fun word to say though. Scandal scandal scandal!
|
Integrity on the ladder? What? I think this is blown out of proportion.
|
On January 14 2011 04:58 Falling wrote:So the abuse starts already. Sure it might seem funny for choya because he's already in Code S, but it doesn't set the standard very high for anyone else. Particularly as they're starting to use ladder results to determine B Leagues. Immediately, I thought of this link from Guybrush's BW histories: http://web.archive.org/web/20011122033813/broodwar.com/comments/index.ihtml?id=1966This is not a good start however 'funny' or 'lame scandal' this may be. We really don't want to go down this road. Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:44 Soap wrote:
It's that if Blizzard introduces a dumb system (hidden rating) the players have the right to play it as they wish, as long as within the rules. Winning by the opponent leaving is within the rules.
I'm pretty sure the reason why the rating system is hidden was specifically so that people couldn't game the system.
Wow, that link is absolutely crazy. Such big names on there no less!
|
Whilst it is undoubtedly weird behaviour, I assume if the opponent refuses to do RPS he continues the game or looses himself, so really all he is doing is presenting an offer for them both to mass-game without the effort.
Everyone that accepts his offer is as 'guilty' or unethical as him.
The decision does not rest in his hands as to whether they accept, and whether the game is fair or decided on chance.
|
On January 14 2011 07:11 nakam wrote:
Isn't this all due to the fundamental flaw of Blizzard's rating system? Ranking is almost exclusively based upon number of games played instead of actual skill. If ELO system was introduced or some variant of it (zero sum, where loser loses the same points the winner wins), this certainly wouldn't happen and rating would start to mean something.
It amazes me that tournaments, such as GSL or Blizzard actually uses the meaningless rating to decide upon such important things as invites to tournaments.
It pretty much is :\ Way too much weight is placed on number of games played as opposed to consistency of winning.
|
It's just another reason why ladder shouldn't be used for anything important.
There was massive cheating in the pro ladders of wc3 which qualified you for big lans.
|
What he does in ladder is up to him I guess. Only thing this may affect and has someone has mentioned it is when Blizzard invites the top ladder players to their upcoming tournament...then again, I imagine he could win more games by actually playing them out.
|
How do they win by rock-paper-scissors? Do they just type it out? I'd imagine if someone sucks at typing then they would be accused of "cheating" (which is ironic since they are cheating out of the ladder anyways).
|
There is a simple solution that is used by Bungie when people try and game the system to boost their rank in Halo: Wipe their points.
Blizzard should easily be able to detected players with an unusually high number of short games and then simply reset their score to zero.
|
No wonder my ladder rank is so low.
|
not a scandal
although there is a slight problem whether or not this should be considered abuse, since things like blizzcon sc2 tournaments are decided by highest ladder players (some tournies i mean)
Something like this could be fixed (or rather, restricted) by adding a rule like if you leave before 90 seconds the match doesn't count.
Question: how does this rock paper scissors thing work?
|
Hmm. This is basically win trading, and didn't we go over this back during Chill v CombatEx?
Pros and community figures (like commentators/coaches) need to be very careful about the things they do on their public accounts. People watch their every move, and whether you think it's just for fun or not, things can quickly get out of hand. Someone like Choya should keep a private account just for fun, and importantly, never tell anyone its info. Personally, I think win trading is hardly worth discussing. You'll never be able to trade enough wins to amount to anything, but the mass of angry nerds could take it the wrong way and think its the end of the world.
|
What a greasy player, watching the gsl last night and watching him proxy gate his teamate in RO16 when he hadnt lost a match yet and his teamate was on the ropes. I got no respect for this grease ball learn how to macro u dud
|
Hes probably not the only one that does this. Just because he is in Code S he gets attention for this.
|
he was trying to speed up the process of erasing his game history really.
|
This whole thing is ridiculous. If a tournament decides to accept people through Blizzard's Ladder without any additional investigation they are accepting the ladder system with all its flaws as a measure of qualification for their individual tournament. That is their decision and it is completely separate from the decisions blizzard makes in how they want to run their ladder. The onus is 100% on the tournament. No ladder system is perfect and there will always be ways of exploiting the system whether it is major ones like maphacking or more minor ones like deciding not to queue when people you feel have an advantage against you are queuing. If you want to accept a ladder as a form of qualification you have to accept its current flaws and at best try to point out those flaws to the entity that runs the ladder.
|
On January 13 2011 17:35 Eluadyl wrote:
I think he was trying to be sarcastic and criticize SCII, claiming it's nothing more than rock-paper-scissors in his own way.
I think you're going something like 6 feet too deep.
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
HAHA, ahh man hell yeah, Idra for life man
|
If he wants to play it on rock paper scissors, he might aswell dont play SC2
|
Honestly I don't know why Blizzard's ladder is so screwed up. Every game I play in master's league lists the opponent as favoured. I've asked my opponents several times, and they say they see me as favoured... So if you win you get a ton of points and if you lose you lose very little, (-2, -1, sometimes even 0)
(Will ask in Master League thread)
|
He might be trying to cover up his match history?
|
what a faggot. now im beginning to think that maybe he did lose vs mvp on purpose today...
|
On January 14 2011 12:23 summerloud wrote:
what a faggot. now im beginning to think that maybe he did lose vs mvp on purpose today...
that's quite a slippery slope of logic there.
|
This............ is ridiculous? I mean sure its sort of ... bad mannered to do... but..... How different would this situation be if just your average joe did it? Sometimes celebrity attention to things overhype them.
|
|
|
On January 13 2011 17:30 vyyye wrote:
How on Earth is this a scandal? Can't see why he would need to apologize.
It's blatant cheating. Its rather hilarious though. He also cheesed his team mate last night on GSL. He has no shame
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
I usually hate the gracken's little snide remakes, but this is hilarious and incredibly true.
On topic, I don't endorse ladder abuse, in any form, at all, but I feel this is extra stupid though I'm really not surprised or care that Choya is doing it.
|
i don't think it's a scandal but i guess since sc2 or e-sports in general is such a big market and career move in korea, doing something like this would be a question of ethics. and it can definitely affect ones reputation and career.
though he has no unethical motives, this rock paper scissors thing does also affect his opportunity in large tournaments held by blizzard internally. skill wise i'm sure he can stand his own ground but there is a huge opportunity cost of further actual practising time. sorry if i missed anything vital cos i really couldn't be bothered to read every post of every page.
waste potential practise time? yes.
scandal? hardly.
|
Dominican Republic913 Posts
this is not a scandal as i see it, he just did it for fun, he anyways is a CODE S.
|
I just had a small aneurysm thinking that there are people out there that actually give a fuck about this other than to have a giggle and move on...
|
GSL accnounced disciplinary action for choyafOu.
Reason: Ladder abusing(confirmed that was not for his ladder point)
Disciplinary action: 1. Disqualified from entering GSTL on Feb 2. Disqualified from entering GSL if he do this again.
Expiration date: 2011 12 31
http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=2&msgid=5788&p=1
Updated on OP also.
|
My question is.. who would agree to this? If I were on a similar skill-level as choya (I am not even close), I would never rock/paper/scissor.. that seems like something a Silver would do...
|
Obviously Choya is doing this because he wants to play rock-paper-scissors instead of SC2. He always viewed his record as how good he can "rock-paper-scissors" instead of his SC2 ranking. The only reason he does this on SC2 is because there are no good rock paper scissors websites.
|
A sport thats winners aren't determined by skill is no sport at all, and such a completely meaningless, valueless enterprise has no business existing in the first place. Whoever looked at this quallification system and decided it was good enough did not do their job and should never have been payed. Likewise, whatever sportsman willingly embraces the lack of skill required to win and exploits it in order to make his living, is no sportsman.
|
Nothing too harsh but definitely a signal not to abuse the ladder. His team will be fine without him for a single season and he isn't missing any GSL matches. Since GOM has a bunch of policies that are closely affiliated with laddering it's not an option to allow this with an eye on the future.
|
UPDATED 2 on 19:46 KST
Jung-Won Chae, the director of Gretech E-Sports Operations and GSL commentator, personally comment to progamers: "Think before you act"
Updated on OP also.
|
Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
So in a ladder qualifier to a big tournament you can just ask your opponent to leave every game and qualify with 100-0 and 100 freewins and you would say it is completely within the confines of regular play?
That's how Aleksandr Karelin won his olympic gold medal in 1992. Every opponent but one forfeited.
If it's ok for the olympics ...
|
I remember hearing the OGS coach saying that working with Kespa is like working for soviet russia, and working with gom is working with usa.
Well, I think GOM as nothing to learn from Kespa anymore. This story is invading of Choya's personnal life. GOM has no right to condemn him for his activities on blizzard ladder, it's like two completely different things. If anyone has to penalize him, it's Blizzard, and I'm not even sure what he did is against the terms of use for Starcraft 2.
Obviously, i find this abuse really stupid and i'm against it. And since GOM needs ladder for code B, i understand they have to do something. But this too harsh, especially because Choya doesn't even need code B. They should have announce that ppl would be disqualified from code B ranking if they did that, and officially warn Choya without taking action.
And props to Blizzard for their retarded ladder system.
|
On January 14 2011 20:52 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
So in a ladder qualifier to a big tournament you can just ask your opponent to leave every game and qualify with 100-0 and 100 freewins and you would say it is completely within the confines of regular play?
That's how Aleksandr Karelin won his olympic gold medal in 1992. Every opponent but one forfeited. If it's ok for the olympics ...
Karelin (EUN) fall (1:33), Johansson (SWE)
Karelin (EUN) fall (0:14), Grigoraş (ROU)
Karelin (EUN)
Karelin (EUN) decision (8-1), Ahokas (FIN)
Karelin (EUN) fall (2:15), Mesa (CUB)
Karelin (EUN) fall (1:30), Borodow (CAN)
Am I missing something here? It's not even comparable at all for that matter but still, your facts seem off but I don't really know wrestling.
|
Perfect response from GSL...not disqualifying him "immediately" but giving him a definite warning therefore stating they definitely disapprove of such behavior. Glad this thing got handled this way.
|
what did he achieve from this though? a number on some site being higher? so what!
if there was qualifiers for blizzcon or something where top 30 go through or something, then yes punish him. but honestly he hasnt affected anyone. i assume if the player refused he would just say okay and play, but if the player decides to play, then who loses?
points dont mean anything, and its lowering his status on the top200 (which is what matters more) as he is only having a 50% win rate
|
On January 14 2011 21:00 Fushin wrote:
I remember hearing the OGS coach saying that working with Kespa is like working for soviet russia, and working with gom is working with usa.
Well, I think GOM as nothing to learn from Kespa anymore. This story is invading of Choya's personnal life. GOM has no right to condemn him for his activities on blizzard ladder, it's like two completely different things. If anyone has to penalize him, it's Blizzard, and I'm not even sure what he did is against the terms of use for Starcraft 2.
Obviously, i find this abuse really stupid and i'm against it. And since GOM needs ladder for code B, i understand they have to do something. But this too harsh, especially because Choya doesn't even need code B. They should have announce that ppl would be disqualified from code B ranking if they did that, and officially warn Choya without taking action.
And props to Blizzard for their retarded ladder system.
They penalize him on their own court, like issuing a ban on a stadium for missbehaviour. The offender can go on any other stadium except that one. His rights of watching football are not removed.
Their tournament, their rules. It's not like they fined him, beat him or kick him out of his own house
It is harsh but it was also necessary to avoid any further abuses. An example. I salute that.
Official warning with no action. That makes no sense.
|
Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 14 2011 21:00 Fushin wrote:
I remember hearing the OGS coach saying that working with Kespa is like working for soviet russia, and working with gom is working with usa.
Well, I think GOM as nothing to learn from Kespa anymore. This story is invading of Choya's personnal life. GOM has no right to condemn him for his activities on blizzard ladder, it's like two completely different things. If anyone has to penalize him, it's Blizzard, and I'm not even sure what he did is against the terms of use for Starcraft 2.
Obviously, i find this abuse really stupid and i'm against it. And since GOM needs ladder for code B, i understand they have to do something. But this too harsh, especially because Choya doesn't even need code B. They should have announce that ppl would be disqualified from code B ranking if they did that, and officially warn Choya without taking action.
And props to Blizzard for their retarded ladder system.
Gom has every right to ban him from THEIR tournament for WHATEVER reason they see fit.
|
On January 14 2011 21:34 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 20:52 imbecile wrote:Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
So in a ladder qualifier to a big tournament you can just ask your opponent to leave every game and qualify with 100-0 and 100 freewins and you would say it is completely within the confines of regular play?
That's how Aleksandr Karelin won his olympic gold medal in 1992. Every opponent but one forfeited. If it's ok for the olympics ... Karelin (EUN) fall (1:33), Johansson (SWE) Karelin (EUN) fall (0:14), Grigoraş (ROU) Karelin (EUN) Karelin (EUN) decision (8-1), Ahokas (FIN) Karelin (EUN) fall (2:15), Mesa (CUB) Karelin (EUN) fall (1:30), Borodow (CAN) Am I missing something here? It's not even comparable at all for that matter but still, your facts seem off but I don't really know wrestling.
Well, then it was 1996, where the opponent forfeited in semis and quarters ... fuzzy memories and hyperbole
But agree, not quite the same. Just that giving up is a proper way for matches to be decided. And that strictly speaking most sc matches are decided that way. And intimidation is probably one of the ways to bring your opponent to give up ...
|
Wow just lost complete interest in gomtv after seeing this....
|
That is hilarious, but what I find interesting is his wins give him 20 points and his loses give him -2. So faster played games give players less for a loss and more for a win?!?!?!?
Looks like this is anti zerg craft at work! BLACK MAGIC!
|
On January 14 2011 23:55 peachsncream wrote:
Wow just lost complete interest in gomtv after seeing this....
hahaha, how you came to that decision is beyond me hahaha
|
On January 14 2011 23:58 TM-Magic wrote:
That is hilarious, but what I find interesting is his wins give him 20 points and his loses give him -2. So faster played games give players less for a loss and more for a win?!?!?!?
Looks like this is anti zerg craft at work! BLACK MAGIC!
No I think it's to do with the way Master League is working right now if I'm not mistaken...
|
Hes only banned from one team league no big deal.
|
Wow sucks to be Disqualified from entering GSTL...
|
I love how people state how little the ladder mather, yet, I see streams of progamers where they obsessively check the ladder and how much time they spend talking about it, especially after losing points. Hell click on any of the streams and ull see them describing what rating they are at. If i spent as much time playing starcraft as progamers watched the ladder, Id be in code s by now.
|
It's a fair punishment. Small consequence, but it sends a clear warning that no abuse will be tolerated.
|
Well played by GSL. This is quite appropriate.
|
good by the GSL.
why would he even do that? im suprised people actually accepted his rock paper scissors offer. if i lost i'd probably just unpause anyways and say lol.
Gomtv can do whatever they want, he is a member of their S class and by doing things like this he reflects poorly on and ultimately hurts Gomtv.
|
On January 14 2011 23:55 peachsncream wrote:
Wow just lost complete interest in gomtv after seeing this....
It was a fair decision. I think Gom handled it very well. He was not disqualified from his current tournament, only banned from the next one.
|
United States12235 Posts
On January 15 2011 00:15 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 23:58 TM-Magic wrote:
That is hilarious, but what I find interesting is his wins give him 20 points and his loses give him -2. So faster played games give players less for a loss and more for a win?!?!?!?
Looks like this is anti zerg craft at work! BLACK MAGIC! No I think it's to do with the way Master League is working right now if I'm not mistaken...
Morality argument aside, this is why they're doing it:
Points are earned based on your opponent's MMR versus your points. Players newly promoted into the Master league have points equal to 73 + their spent bonus pool. Back in Diamond league, before the point normalization, these same players had many many points more than that -- 1,000 or more in addition to their spent bonus pools. Though the Master league offset is currently not known (if any), this means these players' MMRs are potentially thousands higher than their current points, causing their opponent to be displayed as Favored in every single game. This means that if they were to play legitimately, it could take 50, 60, 70 games or more before the phenomenon ends.
This also means that there is no real risk to doing rock-paper-scissors. While RPS virtually ensures a 50% win ratio, but playing legitimately may result in top players having a 60-70% win ratio, it's possible to RPS many times faster than legitimately playing games. Even though their MMR will suffer as a result, they don't necessarily have to worry about their MMR for as long as they continue to see the opponent as Favored (because the risk-reward is too much in their favor). What will likely happen is once they stop seeing the opponent as Favored, meaning their MMR and points are close to converging, that's when they'll start playing for real. However, the number of "real" games will be much smaller than the number of RPS games they have to play to reach their true skill level.
|
Thank you to whoever made this happen.
eSports is at a critical stage. There is a significant amount of money sitting on the side lines right now watching eSports. Personally, I have been watching ATVI Nasdaq to see if they did anything in response to the various abuses over the last 6 months. ATVI is a by-word in my investment community and actions (or failure to act) on these issues is a constant discussion point.
Bravo and this will help the whole eSports development community.
|
I agree that this was a good punishment. Circumventing any ranking system is just poor (e)sportsmanship.
|
On January 14 2011 23:55 peachsncream wrote:
Wow just lost complete interest in gomtv after seeing this....
Honestly if this makes you not want to watch GOM, chances are you weren't even interested in it before this happened lol
|
what a giant overreaction, ladder points don't mean anything and he probably just did it for fun.
|
Wow...another reason why I don't like ChoyafOu.
Besides all this abusing-mumbo-jumbo the most important point proven is that Choya
doesn't have a professional mindset.He's code S and he should behave like a Code S player..especially on the ladder where most players look up to the "pro's"!
|
Well the problem is that he is a pro player and he's getting payed to play, not play around.
I know he's just having fun but he shoulda done it with a smurf account and to top it off he's with a team
|
On January 13 2011 17:28 Plexa wrote:
Oh perhaps he did it trying to cover up his match history? idk.
Perhaps he wishes to keep a spot high on the ladder, but has little time to put on ladder when he has to invest most of it practicing for his upcoming matches as privately as possible. The bonus pool system kinda encourages some of this sadly, but easy to spot.
|
I think there are a lot of people who posted on this thread that don't understand the problem. But thats ok, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I could care less about exchanging wins/losses or whatever that case may be.. the real issue, is that he and others found a glitch in the ranking system. He could lose 3 of 4 games and still be 5 points higher than what he was.
I feel he should be penalized and or fined.
|
pro starcraft 2 player delivers something that resembles a public report card to gom
and gom came out with a punishment for the fault or integrity of this report card
nothing wrong and good call
if choya doesn't like it, or if any of choya's fan doesn't like it
well... choya could play somewhere else...
edit:
i like TL stating that, this is their house, they can do as they pleased
well... in general if people have basic respects for each other, environment will just get better
i respect the admins here, i respect the posters here, i respect the content and community, thus i shall be respectful, and perhaps be respected
what choya did was not paying respect to a system
and keep in mind, he is in KOREA
in that country, you don't just fuck around
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does Ahahahahahahah wow. Normally your comments are a bit dickish but this one is just completely hilarious.
|
If he did it to cover up match history, then we should put this in blizzard's face and see if we could have an option to get it covered a little ;p
|
A warning would have been enough imo, but everyone needs to realise they shouldn't do this!
|
If he doesn't use two accounts playing against one another, then I
Don't see anything wrong in this. It's the fault of the point system. Using the system to your advantage isn't cheating.
They should use ELO points or improve the point system instead.
|
What if he ends up winning the GSL? Banning him from the next one will bring more harm than good imo.
And the OP says that he was not the only 'progamer' to have done this ladder 'abuse' so why is he the only one getting penalised?
Really I don't see why is he being penalised? He didn't cheat right?
|
This is pretty lame. I'm going to convince some losers to just leave a game, and then get banned from a gsl.
|
Does this mean he'll be playing in the up/down matches or regulated to Code A? Will he retain Code S when the March GSL 6 occurs?
And frankly he should be banned for a season. You are a professional gamer, being paid to play a game. Act like a professional.
1. rock paper scixxors
2. proxy gates his teammate
3. has no depth to his play past 12 minutes.
I'm sorry but I completely agree with this...he's Code S, he's being paid to play SC2 by GOM.
|
Ahhhh this reminds me of vanilla SC where everybody cheated their way strait to the top.
|
Did GOMTV ever say that gaming the ladder system was against the rules. I cant get over how funny it is that people would leave if they lost.
being fucked over by a shitty ladder point system is pretty gay. He would get the same shit if he just 6 pooled all fucking day. Yea i know he plays protoss.
|
I don't really see why he should get punished for exploiting the ladder system(not even abusing since hes getting as many losses as wins). Then again I'm prolly biased since I remember the days when every single Korean BW pro would abuse the WCG ladder (free wins) to qualify for WCG Korea and they never got punished for it since it was just a ladder.
|
i think he just redefined cheese
|
Wait, isn't everybody who agreed to his terms just as guilty? why is he just taking the fall for everyone? I mean I guess cause he was doing it every single game...
|
oh common who the heck is interested in ladder ? o another way to get adicted "i wanttttttttttttttt points ", nom nom
|
Russian Federation24 Posts
I don't see why this should be a scandal. Even if he never actually played a real game this shouldn't be a scandal.
|
Good for Gom catching it. Any abuse of any system should be dealt with.
|
On January 13 2011 18:39 Nefariously wrote:
sounds like a nice way to farm portraits
Yeah, though it really depends on how often people actually play fairly and leave when they lose.
This would be a fun and tireless way to grind wins if the opposing player accepts and sticks to the rule of leaving if they lose.
Some players just want the achievements and portraits and grinding for them takes the fun out of the game, so they want to find way to quickly obtain those achievements or portraits.
In Team Fortress 2, there were achievement servers where the goal was to either:
1. Idle to get items (you get a 20% chance every 20 minutes to get an item). TF2's system of finding items simply just involve game play time rather than getting points or so. Fortunately (or unfortunately) Valve doesn't really care about achievement servers (really it ruins the gameplay if everyone was trying to get achievements on regular servers rather than one designed for achievements).
OR
2. Help each other get achievement (like perform <specific task which requires not actually helping your team win the game>).
Also in BF2 - There were sure a lot of times people just used Knife (not caring about helping teammates) just to try to get the Expert Knife Badge. Also times where people went Squad Leader just to obtain hours for being a Squad Leader for an achievement (this is despite the fact there are 10 other empty Squads a player can join instead).
Those are just a few examples of achievement addiction ruining players lives.
Well maybe not but I really dislike achievements sometimes and I disagree with Bashiok's statement on D3 about achievements being a "bragging rights" reward.
Personally, I prefer thinking of Achievements as a test of whether someone can resist them or not rather than anything else.
On January 13 2011 18:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:57 kirkybaby wrote:
i think blizzard perceives this more as a minor exploitation and not in violation of eula, unlike map hacking, etc. direct and unauthorized modification of the game is a bannable offense, unlike persuading someone to do something completely within the confines of regular play (in this case, asking someone to leave). b) due to negative publicity they refuse to make a bigger deal out of the situation. It is not because they think it is fine for players to do this, no chance.
I agree. Blizzard would definitely care if nearly every player was doing it. Imagine what the "gaming media" would think of Blizzard proudly presenting their ladder and their next gen RTS "SC2" when in actuality it's filled with players playing rock paper scissor instead of SC2.
About not wanting to make a big deal out of the situation - Sadly it seems to be the case with Blizzard lately in regards to custom maps and popularity system.
The Custom Map Feedback thread was made in August 2010, but yet it still has had no replies or acknowledgment from Blizzard. Also it has only 4 replies per day, I doubt they can't hire or find someone to read 4 posts per day and make replies. They need better PR with custom mappers.
|
On January 15 2011 08:47 cujo2k wrote:
I don't really see why he should get punished for exploiting the ladder system(not even abusing since hes getting as many losses as wins).
This is what happens when the developer is running the pro scene.
|
this is stupid imo, he dont need to apologize because thats was in the ladder games you could do whatever you want with it. he bought the game like others, he isnt even hacking duhh!!!
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
HAHAAAAA, sick play yesterday btw dude
|
Why punish someone for the crap bnet system that Blizzard spend years developing?
Why couldn't blizzard look at IcCup for example and make the same or similar system?
The current rating system is not even accurate as people that were D on IcCup are now platinum players.
|
I wonder why a Code S player is so interested in his ladder points... lol shoudn't he be training everyday rather than play rock paper scissors on ladder ?
|
The point of it,is something much bigger than ChoyaFou, and that is to make the point of not abusing the ladder system. This was definitely the right way to deal with this. Exactly what Plexis commented on, and its to keep the integrity of the system, and since GSL is going to be basing the GOMTV team house on ladder and the B leagues (i'm not quite sure if the B leagues yet). But abusing the system no matter how much you think its "broken" would not be healthy for the Starcraft community if it was left unpunished. Props to GomTV.
|
Wow GOM. I think its extremely unprofessional for GOM to punish the player for actions outside of the league. The GOM league was open to anyone regardless of ladder rank, and choya got through it all and qualified for the league through his own play, made it to Ro8, and is in the Code S tourny. GOM just trying to look and act big?
|
i do not fully understand the whole Rock Paper Scissors thing
|
On January 15 2011 12:34 a176 wrote:
Wow GOM. I think its extremely unprofessional for GOM to punish the player for actions outside of the league.
You're right, Choya should boycott the GSL and just not even show up!
As its been stated before.
Ladder may be used to sort through B class qualifiers leagues. Its GOMTV's tourney, and they can do what they please.
In my opinion, Choya is no real loss, as I want to watch a decent level macro game.
|
These players enter into a contract just like any other job. What you do outside of your job still effects you current status and reputatuon at your job. So all of you acting like choyafou should do this or that remember its gomtv who are ultimately responsible. No matter how you view it personally, its obviously a big deal.goms reputation is at stake.
|
Broodwar match fixing was a scandal(!), this is just plain stupidness on the ladders :/
|
I don't understand how you do rock paper scissors on SC2.
CHAT?
|
On January 15 2011 19:24 mizU wrote:
I don't understand how you do rock paper scissors on SC2.
CHAT?
From tntrieu:
On January 13 2011 18:46 tntrieu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 17:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
More importantly, how do you play a game of rock paper scissors online? Example:
Player 1: Rock
Player 2: [looks at rock, and decides to go paper..] You play three games at once. If player one types [Paper Rock Paper] and player two types [Rock Paper Scissor], then player two wins
|
This reminds me of GuildWars and the Happy Red Resigns day.
It was on a 1vs1 format, where you would spawn either as the blue team, or as the red, with 50% chances. Since there were in game rewards for winning those games, people just agreed on "Red Resigns": if you spawned red you had to leave and take a loss, and if blue you just waited for your opponent to quit and take the win. It was engineered on a forum, but it grew very fast in popularity because you shortened a 10 to 15 minute match to a 5 second, with a 50% chance of winning. Of course there were some "griefers" to that system (people that actually liked to play the format), but still the game was exploited to a level nobody thought possible.
I really hope this doesn't become standard in SC2. Because we already spawn in red and blue teams.
|
|
|
There are problems beneath choya playing rock paper scissors on the ladder. Although you can punish him for actively abusing and discourage people from doing that in the future, you can't excise all games that weren't "real" games. Every time someone leaves 2 seconds in because they don't want that matchup or gets an urgent phone call or the baby's diaper needs changed and leaves... these things are all as fake as rock paper scissors.
Who's to say the guy ranked #199 isn't worse than the guy at #201, but he ran into someone who was MU dodging a couple times in a row on ladder?
The deep problem is relying on Blizzard's ladder to determine qualifying spots for tournaments. For any tournaments. There is only one ladder in the world to play on. Players have very few accounts to work with. It should frankly be open qualifiers, specific invites, or bust.
|
this seems dumb. i understand for a pro gamer to be doing this is frowned upon, but to be taking action is just stupid. its his own ladder account, let him grind his way up however.
if anyone should have any word to be said, its blizz
|
We're talking about a heavily sponsored league here. How can you even pretend behaviour like that coming from one of the top players doesn't matter ?
|
On January 14 2011 23:55 peachsncream wrote:
Wow just lost complete interest in gomtv after seeing this....
Must be hard living with a such a fickle personality.
|
On January 15 2011 08:08 AngryJackB wrote:
Did GOMTV ever say that gaming the ladder system was against the rules. I cant get over how funny it is that people would leave if they lost.
being fucked over by a shitty ladder point system is pretty gay. He would get the same shit if he just 6 pooled all fucking day. Yea i know he plays protoss.
I'd hardly call it gaming the system.
|
On January 15 2011 17:08 Rawenkeke wrote:
Broodwar match fixing was a scandal(!), this is just plain stupidness on the ladders :/
Any publicity is good publicity.
I guess...
|
This just in, Rock Paper Sissors is funner than SC2.
|
I remembered during an interview where Jinro said that he got someone to use his ladder account to play some fake matches to cover up his ladder history. What's to stop someone from doing this ladder abuse and then claiming that they did it for this particular reason?
|
This is blizzard fault to make not a perfect laddersystem.
|
So GomTV went all Kespa on his ass? When did GomTV become the ladder police? What's next? Idra's sanctioned for being bad mannered on the ladder? Christ...
|
This is hilarious, Blizzard taking out its own faults on someone doing something completely innocent. Not the first time either.
|
On January 13 2011 17:40 Cambam wrote:
Just a quick and efficient way to get his displayed rating up to his hidden rating (MMR), because of the master leauge reset. And it looks like it worked, he is #1 on KR ladder at the moment.
It will stop working once his displayed rating reaches his hidden rating. Read Excalibur_Z's thread on how the ladder system works.
Here's a quick rundown:
Let's say he gets promoted to masters and reset to 2400 displayed rating. Meanwhile, we'll say his MMR is 3000. He plays a game against IMNestea who is also 2400 displayed, 3000 MMR (hypothetically).
IMNestea will appear favored to choya and choya will appear favored to IMNestea. This is because the favored system works by comparing your opponents HIDDEN rating to your DISPLAYED rating. Thus:
IMNestea's HIDDEN rating of 3000 > choya's DISPLAYED rating of 2400
and vice versa.
Everyone will be favored to choya (and thus give +20~ and -5~) until his displayed rating catches up to his hidden rating.
Hope that made sense. It's just choya's clever way of skyrocketing to the top of the ladder faster than everyone else. But like I said, it will stop working eventually.
So in truth he's just making his DISPLAYED rating reach his HIDDEN rating faster. There's nothing wrong with that!
|
this is like, giving Choya an F in Sexuality101 despite he aced every single exam just because he had sex with the professor's daughter without using a condom.
|
Why not do something similar to how ratings work in chess? There is a major globally recognized chess organization, FIDE. They hold sanctioned tournaments and your ratings change when playing in those tournaments.
1. Build a tournament system into SC2.
2. Have only 1 rating (no displayed rating) and a confidence in that rating (Elo, TrueSkill, etc.).
3. "Sanctioned" tournaments can be run every week or every other day if players are willing to play in them.
4. This is separate from the ladder system.
Only question is, who would sanction a tournament? Who would be the globally recognized organization? (not Blizzard for sure).
|
NOT ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS!
I say go for it. If people really want to reduce their ladder experience to that instead of actually playing the game, then who cares?
Hell, he probably could have won just as quickly by worker rushing everyone every time; he's just being more efficient. Both people have to agree on rock-paper-scissors anyway.
This is so *not* a big deal.
|
On January 15 2011 20:47 Ender985 wrote:Of course there were some "griefers" to that system (people that actually liked to play the format)
Quoting for hilarity.
Seems that GomTV are trying to send a message early to anybody with this in mind rather than singling out Choya as Starcraft 2 Satan.
|
This is retarded on so many levels...
|
how do u rock paper scisser online o.O
|
Immature kids still don't know what it means to be a professional, the coach should have found out sooner and stopped him before GOM did.
|
Its interesting how Gom can intervene on what basically is his private time. i guess it's no different to our AFL players (Australia) getting busted for being rowdy at bars (and worse >_<).
|
On January 16 2011 16:24 Montassiner wrote:
Its interesting how Gom can intervene on what basically is his private time. i guess it's no different to our AFL players (Australia) getting busted for being rowdy at bars (and worse >_<).
Except nobody ends up bashed or raped after a Starcraft player exploits the ladder.
|
I think the team should've intervened... -.-
|
On January 16 2011 16:24 Montassiner wrote:
Its interesting how Gom can intervene on what basically is his private time. i guess it's no different to our AFL players (Australia) getting busted for being rowdy at bars (and worse >_<).
Gom is not intervening on choyas pottery or candle making time. The ladder is used to determine prospective gsl players and should be played with integrity by its members.
|
It's not his fault ladder is retarded.
|
A pro-gamer abusing the game is obviously a scandal though its in the "minor" scandal category. Ladder rank may not matter but he is a PRO-gamer and he CHEATED. If thats not a scandal then nothing is. How he can still be in the fOu clan baffles me. Really bad mentality, but I am also a very rightous crusader.
|
Sorry if this has been asked before, but how in the FUCK do you play rock paper scissors on SC2? Lmfao.
"Which did you pick?"
"Rock."
"K, I picked paper then."
"gg">f10>n
Also, why was he gaining like 20 points per game and only losing like 2? I don't understand. Edit: Nvm, I guess after the Master League change, his rating must have reset, so now he's trying to reach his MMR.
PS: The GSL officially uses the ladder for their tournament setup, so abusing the ladder is abusing GSL. Pretty cut and dry.
I certainly would not blame him myself though. It's really the least exploity of exploits. It's not like that'll get him anywhere. The only problem is that, if he only did it with certain people, it could get THEM higher (he's already code S, but people he gives free points to might get high enough for Code B).
Really curious how you possible play RPS on SC2 though, rofl.
|
sometimes i really doubt that all the sc2 pros understand the ethnics and basic conduct of themselves being professional gamer.
look at idra being a pro - laddering with rages is a thing(just like any athletes feel upset or angry during their practices), as he said 'if you are not angry then you dont care enough' ---> we have never seen him misbehave in public games/tourneys at all (sc2 scenes).
'cheating' on ladder as a pro gamer is just purely stupid and most importantly, disgraceful.
|
Btw, it's impossible for choya to gain an advantage by what he is doing. He can only make his displayed rating match his MMR. Once he reaches that point, he will not rise higher by doing RPS, and will have to play to win.
The only reason what he's doing can mess things up is that he can give free points to people who aren't high enough for code B yet, by losing to them in RPS.
|
if im not wrong, rock paper scissors can be played in korean language for sc2
something along the lines of them assigning Rock/Paper/Scissors to a letter then counting down 3 2 1
|
More evidence that the ladder system as implemented is flawed, this should not provide any clear advantage.
All they did is change the win condition, I really don't see anything wrong with that, if both players agree, they should be able to agree to any win condition they want.
|
Wait, what did he do wrong? Him playing RPS every game is the basically the same as if he were to cheese every game. No one said you HAD to play out every game in the ladder. o.O I thought the point of ladder is so you can play whatever style you wanted and perfect that. If he wants to play RPS, and the other person agrees, why isn't he allowed to do so? He's allowed to cheese all he wants without repercussions....
|
Seriously now. It's a joke that anyone even cares.
Edit: And wait, what, Gom threatened to disqualify him if he does it again? What the fuck do they have to do with his ladder rating? A 50/50 win record isn't going to do much to your behind the scenes rating, and it sure as fuck won't affect tournament performance. Gom are fucking retarded at times.
|
Don't get why he is disqualified from GSL. Just tell the kid to stop, this is somewhat stupid...
|
its probably not rps. It's just "next time i see you on ladder i will leave".
|
Oooooouch. You know, the kid probably would have stopped doing it if he just recieved a slap on the wrist. Disqualifying him from GSTL is pretty huge.
|
I actually think his idea was pretty hilarious.
I'd pick RPS too :D
The reaction, sadly, is anything but.
Might as well ban other pros from random events for trying out new strats on the ladder instead of playing 0815 solid builds which give them the best chances of winning.
|
WTF...? Not a big deal, GOM. The poor guy was just trying to get his portraits.
|
On January 17 2011 08:43 snow2.0 wrote:
I actually think his idea was pretty hilarious.
I'd pick RPS too :D
The reaction, sadly, is anything but.
Might as well ban other pros from random events for trying out new strats on the ladder instead of playing 0815 solid builds which give them the best chances of winning.
...your statement is ridiculous ~_~ I think his banning of this event was to show the world that they mean serious business and keeps people in check. Even though you guys think its a minor offense "rock paper scissoring" to win or lose games. its still something that doesnt display a competitive spirit and not a legitimate way to gain a spot in the tourney. Even though you guys say it doesnt give him an advantage and all that bullshit what if it does? then what..should he now be penalized for when it works? =p
|
On January 17 2011 10:35 OhThatDang wrote:
...your statement is ridiculous ~_~ I think his banning of this event was to show the world that they mean serious business and keeps people in check. Even though you guys think its a minor offense "rock paper scissoring" to win or lose games. its still something that doesnt display a competitive spirit and not a legitimate way to gain a spot in the tourney. Even though you guys say it doesnt give him an advantage and all that bullshit what if it does? then what..should he now be penalized for when it works? =p
Unless he's hacking, for which dq from just one event would be way to mild, there's no way he can gain an advantage over good players actually playing the games, and advancing in rank until evening out at the expected 50%.
The one thing he does gain is a lot of saved time for using up his bonus pool - but gee, how does he even have a bonus pool if he has been playing a lot.
|
lol, and how do they even play RPS in the first place?
|
United States7481 Posts
|
On January 16 2011 13:21 bubblegumbo wrote:
Immature kids still don't know what it means to be a professional, the coach should have found out sooner and stopped him before GOM did.
He is the coach of fOu so...
|
On January 15 2011 20:05 Gold Fish wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 19:24 mizU wrote:
I don't understand how you do rock paper scissors on SC2.
CHAT? From tntrieu: Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:46 tntrieu wrote:On January 13 2011 17:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
More importantly, how do you play a game of rock paper scissors online? Example:
Player 1: Rock
Player 2: [looks at rock, and decides to go paper..] You play three games at once. If player one types [Paper Rock Paper] and player two types [Rock Paper Scissor], then player two wins
Still confused.
Could wait till Paper rock paper then type scissors paper blank
|
Honest to god I saw someone play rps for a sc2 ladder game.
countdown
3
2
1
say rock paper or scissors simultaneously(korean of course)
of course its not perfect, but its good enough.
|
The GSL neither controls nor understands the ladder system - who are they to define what people are allowed to do on it? Using it as qualifier is even more stupid - how would they know for sure that it is completely fair if it's not their own system?
|
so how do they play rock paper scissors?
|
On January 17 2011 16:34 MOOG wrote:
Honest to god I saw someone play rps for a sc2 ladder game.
countdown
3
2
1
say rock paper or scissors simultaneously(korean of course)
of course its not perfect, but its good enough.
This is the way how they play RPS.
|
What????
This is really upsetting, he has done nothing wrong!!
This is just terrible. There is nothing to stop the other player from staying if he loses the game.
What is this? They didn't bend any rules. They played a game of starcraft. What units they made what they type to each other, it's their own choice. This is exactly NOT abuse. Grr.... Gsl won wome points with fixing Lost temple and bringing in new maps, but then today the stream went offline, players got disconnected, and now this they punish a guy for playing the game...
|
back in the days everybody was crying about KeSPA, and how they dealt with things when the broadcasters fuck things up.
now the regulation is done by the broadcaster himself. there is no differentation between the law enforcing authority and the money-grabbng company.
wanna know what i think about it? GOM knows the old rule of "every publicity is good publicity" and they thought that SC2 could need a "scandal" to raise the viewing rates. for the sake of the players, lets hope this wont work, because otherwise we will soon have the next scandal.
|
For someone who is a director, The tone and words Jung-Won Chae used are appalling and unprofessional.
|
I'm sorry, but I don't know how he could win 20 points for winnig but only lose 3 by losing. How does this work? Do his opponents get the same deal?
|
in sc2 now you get banned when you dont play ladder game seriously ?!
serious business
|
United States12235 Posts
On January 18 2011 10:28 Munk-E wrote:
I'm sorry, but I don't know how he could win 20 points for winnig but only lose 3 by losing. How does this work? Do his opponents get the same deal?
Read up on how the ladder system works.
|
It's the problem of the ladder mechanism, not the players. Ridiculous to punish choya...
What Blizzard should do is taking play time/stats into account to calculate win/lose points. You can't earn your points within 10 seconds/mining nothing.
|
And I guess most progamers don't, or won't play ladders very often. What they need for a tournament is specific training with dedicated partners, not hanging around playing with random opponents. It won't shock me if the juniors in a team will have to play ladder games for the seniors...Overall, ladder system should be just for fun, not for competitive e-sports.
However, maybe the achievements in GSL could be converted into BN points...
|
I don't know how to play rock-paper-scissors in a sc2 game...But you could do this: pick out two healthy workers, let your opponents see and choose left/right, then make them attack each other...should be fair?
|
On January 18 2011 11:13 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 10:28 Munk-E wrote:
I'm sorry, but I don't know how he could win 20 points for winnig but only lose 3 by losing. How does this work? Do his opponents get the same deal? Read up on how the ladder system works.
I gave up on understanding that months ago. I know you're kind of the expert, but for me, I just take the points it gives me.
|
So can anyone explain how he was getting 20 for a win and only losing 2 - 4 per loss? I would like to use this = P
|
On January 18 2011 11:18 palefountains wrote:
It's the problem of the ladder mechanism, not the players. Ridiculous to punish choya...
The ladder system does have problems but I fail to understand how its flaws make it fair-game to exploit these shortcomings to gain an unfair point advantage. Maphacks exploit shotcomings in SC2's design and are banned for good reason - the same applies to exploiting flaws in the ladder system design.
|
On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
Leave it to IdrA to have an awesome quote as per usual.
|
Seems like the GomTV commission has an extremely different view of integrity then most of the people here on teamliquid. They punished him because he was cheating to get ahead on the ladder...I don't see what people think is funny or immoral about this.
|
On January 18 2011 11:18 palefountains wrote:
It's the problem of the ladder mechanism, not the players. Ridiculous to punish choya...
That is the stupidest comment I have read in a long time.
|
I think people are missing the point here. Unlike us he's a professional. If we did something like this should we be punished? No, obviously. It's a game for us (although we should be ashamed if we did!). But he is paid to play and should uphold the standards and honor code of the game just like any other professional of any other sport would do. Ever hear of Pete Rose(I know that's an extreme example but he also disrespected the game he played)? Anyways, I'm sure his intentions were just playful/comedic and he will learn from this, but come on man...think b4 u act Choya.
|
On January 19 2011 09:12 azr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 11:18 palefountains wrote:
It's the problem of the ladder mechanism, not the players. Ridiculous to punish choya...
That is the stupidest comment I have read in a long time.
Why?
If you're referring to the first paragraph, I'm not the first one saying that in this thread.
If it is the second paragraph, better come up with a reason, or a better solution.
|
On January 19 2011 11:57 palefountains wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 09:12 azr wrote:On January 18 2011 11:18 palefountains wrote:
It's the problem of the ladder mechanism, not the players. Ridiculous to punish choya...
That is the stupidest comment I have read in a long time. Why? If you're referring to the first paragraph, I'm not the first one saying that in this thread If it is the second paragraph, better come up with a reason, or a better solution.
Because even though the ladder might not be perfect, not even playing games legitimately hurts any progress towards a better ladder. So I think he's saying its stupid for you to take the stance of "its the ladders fault because it makes it possible"... Blizzard probably needs good, reliable statistics from the ladder at the masters level and when small things like this happen, they can grow into big problems if enough people start doing it. So punishing Choya to dissuade others from doing it would be the correct action by Blizzard and GOM.
|
On January 19 2011 11:34 eclipsE90 wrote:
I think people are missing the point here. Unlike us he's a professional. If we did something like this should we be punished? No, obviously. It's a game for us (although we should be ashamed if we did!). But he is paid to play and should uphold the standards and honor code of the game just like any other professional of any other sport would do. Ever hear of Pete Rose(I know that's an extreme example but he also disrespected the game he played)? Anyways, I'm sure his intentions were just playful/comedic and he will learn from this, but come on man...think b4 u act Choya.
Are ladder games professional? I don't think so. If so, then everybody who plays a ladder game, is professional, theoretically. Not a big difference between choya, and you. You might be invited to a Blizzard-sponsored event, if you played well.
Hence, ladder games are just for fun at home. Will a pro poker/bridge player be penalized by any authorities just because he/she cheated in a home-party poker/bridge game with friends? At the very least, Blizzard should follow a kind of "une fois n'est pas coutume" policy in this unclear area.
|
On January 19 2011 12:09 eclipsE90 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 11:57 palefountains wrote:On January 19 2011 09:12 azr wrote:On January 18 2011 11:18 palefountains wrote:
It's the problem of the ladder mechanism, not the players. Ridiculous to punish choya...
That is the stupidest comment I have read in a long time. Why? If you're referring to the first paragraph, I'm not the first one saying that in this thread If it is the second paragraph, better come up with a reason, or a better solution. Because even though the ladder might not be perfect, not even playing games legitimately hurts any progress towards a better ladder. So I think he's saying its stupid for you to take the stance of "its the ladders fault because it makes it possible"... Blizzard probably needs good, reliable statistics from the ladder at the masters level and when small things like this happen, they can grow into big problems if enough people start doing it. So punishing Choya to dissuade others from doing it would be the correct action by Blizzard and GOM.
I'm not against this opinion.
But it is very hard to define what is legal or not here, I think. Every time I met my friend in the ladder, I was happy to quit the game to save some time since we wanted to play with unfamiliar players. Is it illegal? I played a thirty-minute game and was tired of it, so chose play a rock-paper-scissors duel with my opponent to end it. Is it illegal? Yes you can say Choya's action is illegal here. My point is that there is not a fine line.
|
I don't think the reason GSL punished him is because they could theoretically use his ladder to qualify him for something.
That's missing the point.
I think it's more of a "you are playing in our league - play with integrity at all times because you're representing our brand".
The same thing happens in western professional sports, too, for stuff that happens off the court/field (e.g. NBA).
|
On January 19 2011 12:24 applejuice wrote:
I don't think the reason GSL punished him is because they could theoretically use his ladder to qualify him for something.
That's missing the point.
I think it's more of a "you are playing in our league - play with integrity at all times because you're representing our brand".
The same thing happens in western professional sports, too, for stuff that happens off the court/field (e.g. NBA).
But I think they won't punish such behavior in a custom game, if it actually happens...
And I also think that it is reasonable, if not more reasonable, for them to punish pro players using abusive language in ladder games. Just a hypothesis.
But you are right. They have the right to do whatever they like within GSL.
|
I don't know how I feel about this. If it was like choyafou being like Michael Vick and holding illegal animal betting matches, then I guess he should be DQed from future GSLs. However, in this case, he didn't force the opponent to play a RPS match with him, but rather, gave them the choice to.
There's the argument that GSL wants to hold up the integrity of the players... but he didn't maphack or anything.
If there were a Starcraft debate class, great subject to argue for and against on, lol.
|
I'm honestly failing to derive any tangible consequence to any of this? Scandal? Jesus, it's like perezhilton.com for SC2.
|
|
|
What the... Why would you do this if you're already a highly rated player so what's the ladder mean to you. :s Doesn't bother me in the slightest.
On January[/tlpd] 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he Always does
:D haha
|
The reason choyafOu did this is because he sucks. No one respects his play style because he is 100% cheese. He knows he is bad so he feels like by climbing the ladder he is proving something... For anyone who thinks he is a legit player please go watch what he did to his teammate this year in the GSL... Code S Round of 16 Group B Match 4 Set 1.
He's trash and he ruins the GSL, and now the ladder too...
Here's the link for Code S Ro16 Group B Match 4 Set 1.
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors1/vod/59686
|
look at all of these noobs not grasping the concept that abuse is not tolerated. Noobs who do grasp it, I am not talking about you
|
I don't really care whether Choya's punished for this. What saddens me is that people would rather play RPS than play SC2 for ladder points.
|
On January 19 2011 11:57 palefountains wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 09:12 azr wrote:On January 18 2011 11:18 palefountains wrote:
It's the problem of the ladder mechanism, not the players. Ridiculous to punish choya...
That is the stupidest comment I have read in a long time. Why? If you're referring to the first paragraph, I'm not the first one saying that in this thread. If it is the second paragraph, better come up with a reason, or a better solution.
I think it is very saddening that so many share that view. Sure, Blizzard and their ladder system is far from perfect, but that doesn't justify abuse. The problem of ladder abuse exists because there are players willing to abuse it. The ladder system wasn't supposed to be used for games of RSP, so by using it as such players are creating a flaw in the system.
Of course, cheaters will always exist. But that doesn't mean we should approve of what they're doing...
|
How would you even rock/paper/scissors on battle.net?
|
Just saw this thread. Absolutely hilarious. Idra's quote from the first page is perfect.
God choya. is this why you're so iffy T_T.
|
Didn't he know that Quartz, Parchment, Shears is an evil game?
|
|
|
I think people like him shouldn't fuck around at all. Eventhough it doesn't matter it is still abuse and cheating basically. I say punish him to show anyone whom would like to pull similar bs. Probably first time i agree with IdrA.
|
On what grounds (reference to GSL ruleset) was he punished exactly? (skimming the thread for basis, base, require, rule, ground didn't yield an answer)
It's pretty hard to respect such a move by the GSL unless they announced beforehand that such behaviour is unacceptable. In fact I'd even be forced to hold them in contempt for it if it has no substantive grounds whatsoever.
|
|
|
lol, that's ridiculous
like getting banned from casinos for peaking at someone card when playing poker at home :>
|
That's a really terrible analogy.
|
On January 22 2011 02:13 Djzapz wrote:
lol, that's ridiculous
like getting banned from casinos for peaking at someone card when playing poker at home :>
more like getting disciplined in the world poker tour for cheating on a poker website like fulltiltpoker.com
|
Ladder is serious BIZZNESS!
|
|
|
Oh well, there goes my chance at Gom house
|
Why do his action on Bnet affect his GSL status? Do people actually care about ladder that much?
Not to mention the rock/paper/scissors thing was only done mutually..
|
So he's banned for a year? OUCH.
Also guys, this is a great move by the GSL because it sets an obvious precedent to discourage ALL ladder abuse in the future by any player interested in participating in the GSL.
|
His little scheme wasn't very well thought out... As if no one will notice dozens of games <1 minute :\
|
|
|
On January 24 2011 06:17 Vei wrote:
So he's banned for a year? OUCH.
Also guys, this is a great move by the GSL because it sets an obvious precedent to discourage ALL ladder abuse in the future by any player interested in participating in the GSL.
Banned for a year? I thought he was only banned from the February GSL. Who's going to take his spot in code S?
And lol @ everyone saying he is trash. You don't get to round 8 in Code S by being trash. Sure, he did some dumb RPS shit on ladder, but his accomplishments clearly illustrate that he is a competent player. He's rather cheesy, but he's extremely proficient in his execution and he's able to do macro games if he's pulled into one.
The fact that they punished him at all is stupid. His performance contradicts their reasoning, which is, if I recall correctly, that it would allow players to wrongfully compete on levels beyond them. Code S is obviously not above Choya, seeing that he's made Ro8 last season and this season. Furthermore, even if someone DID do some dumb RPS BS to get into Code B, isn't code B also a tournament of sorts? They're obviously not going to be good enough to actually win it if someone does that.
|
This decision is pretty stupid imo. If Choya didn't gain money from this (and how could he?) I don't see why he should be penalized an opportunity to play in a league that doesn't use ladder rankings to determine placements. It would be different if this actually had an effect on anything in GSL, but it doesn't. GOM once again is proving to me it still has a long ways to go before I consider it a mature organization to lead e-sports.
|
On January 26 2011 19:26 setzer wrote:
This decision is pretty stupid imo. If Choya didn't gain money from this (and how could he?) I don't see why he should be penalized an opportunity to play in a league that doesn't use ladder rankings to determine placements. It would be different if this actually had an effect on anything in GSL, but it doesn't. GOM once again is proving to me it still has a long ways to go before I consider it a mature organization to lead e-sports.
But ladder is important for blizzard and even for Gom for their foreigner invitations.....
Even if choya doesnt get an advantage from it.... Gom works together with blizzard and after all the ladder is the official way to rank players in this game. Of course he should be punished. Everyone who disagrees doesnt have any sense for rights
|
|
|
Does anyone know why the punishment was never enforced? Did everyone just forget?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
