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On January 13 2011 22:03 PartyBiscuit wrote:
It is GSL related because he is a GSL player.
It is a scandal because he is abusing the system.
It matters because the ladder does matter for some tourneys.
As long as this player's ladder rating has no effect for his path through the tournament it is a non-issue for that tournament. The tournament could have a rule requiring players to behave in certain ways even outside of that tournament and it would then be on the player to decide whether he wants to accept such restrictions and be a messenger of esports or not participate in the tournament.
If the GSL has such a rule and Choya was aware of that then maybe you can talk of somewhat of a scandal and call for reprehension or disqualification. Otherwise it's only the player's image that suffers and it's up to Choya to decide what he wants his reputation to be.
On January 13 2011 22:16 confusedcrib wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:11 RetFan wrote:
Actually confusedcrib, when you first sign up for Teamliquid, some of the first rules are that THIS IS OUR HOUSE AND WE HAVE OUR RULES. I am certainly very wary of what to post on these forums, especially if it is against the views of a moderator.
How you define community is very important. The Starcraft II community extends way beyond the confines of the TL community. Here, the target demographic may take laddering and rankings very seriously.
However, between a group of 12-13 year olds who have never heard of TL, this may be completely irrelevant. They just want to have fun and do what they want. Why should one community, or even select members of the community have the right to impose what people should and shouldn't do based on their views? As enzym said, why does everyone have to take the ladder seriously? Because you say so? You're not going to agree no matter what anyone says so this is all pointless but: Nazgul is saying his opinion, and what I glean from it is: Ladder is important to tournament level players Choya is a tournament level player Therefore Choya should not cheat on the ladder, because it's like a tournament And you don't have any arguments, besides: a. What he is doing is legal and b. We shouldn't impose our opinions on people Oh, and your whole, "Oh god Nazgul please don't ban me for disagreeing with you" thing is unnecessary, realize that if your argument is actually respectful, he has no reason to ban you; never mind the pandering BS.
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before.
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On January 13 2011 22:06 confusedcrib wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
. Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community.
actually, you're wrong. teamliquid moderators will warn or ban you for posting stuff the mods don't agree with. on the day9 state of the game thread, i wrote my honest opinion that although day9's intentions for making sc2 into esports is credible, before sc2 can be popularized as an esport, the game itself has to undergo major improvements to make it an entertaining game that is more balanced, better maps, and more conducive to long, macro games with stuff going on everywhere in the map like bw.
and guess what? i get warned for being a bw vs sc2 troll.
also, i just found out today but if you talk about kpop or anything not related to msl day 3 in a msl day 3 thread, you will get warned/banned. so in the TL forums, you can't really talk about certain stuff unless you want to get warned/banned.
User was temp banned for this post.
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What he is doing is legal he cannot get into jail for it. He can how ever get his account deleted. And to be honest if i was a manager and one of my employees did this he would be into serious trouble.
This makes him look bad, his team, and by default his sponsors. Was it illegal? no. >as it stupid... Yes
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@Confused crib
Of course, I simply feel that Liquid Nazgul is not objectively thinking about this with a cool head.
There is nothing stopping a tournament containing rules that have a provision that expressly states that 'players who collude in ladder games are not allowed to participate in the tournament'.
Simple and efficient
EDIT: Looks like you actually wrote the same things before this message was posted :D
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I'm unsure why this is a "scandal". choya isn't win trading or anything. He's just asking opponent hey want to play rock paper scissors instead of starcraft. Where is the abuse? If he wins more than 50% of his ladder games, this hurts him.
Let's say Gom was going to take the top 5 players on the ladder for Code B. how would anyone get to the top 5 playing rock paper scissor? If he did manage to get to the top 5 using just rock paper scissors, it would be complete luck, akin to if a player made top 5 because all of his opponents gets dropped coincidentally. But you wouldn't dispute that the player is in the top 5 legitimately if all his opponents did legitimately get dropped.
If choya was win trading, liking paying players to lose or something, then that's completely different, but that isnt the case here. I'm surprised he got any sort of warning. In fact labeling this as a scandal probably did more to hurt esports then him doing this rps thing.
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On January 13 2011 22:11 RetFan wrote:
However, between a group of 12-13 year olds who have never heard of TL, this may be completely irrelevant. They just want to have fun and do what they want. Why should one community, or even select members of the community have the right to impose what people should and shouldn't do based on their views? As enzym said, why does everyone have to take the ladder seriously? Because you say so?
The discussion here is not for 'a group of 12-13 year olds who have never heard of TL', but for a group that values this game and esports highly.
No one is imposing anything here, step down from your tower, your highness. Everyone agrees that the ladder system isn't perfect, but saying what he did is perfectly fine is just going to bring more abuse of this or other flaws in the design, which then will bring more negative points to esports and how they are valued throughout the world.
The discussion is about sportsmanship and fair play. If Choya was any ordinary Joe, this wouldn't be such a 'big' deal. He's a progamer - would you still watch your favorite sport if the professional players do something that is not considered professional and harms how the sport itself is valued with the people?
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On January 13 2011 22:21 kwkwookw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:06 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
. Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community. also, i just found out today but if you talk about kpop or anything not related to msl day 3 in a msl day 3 thread, you will get warned/banned. so in the TL forums, you can't really talk about certain stuff unless you want to get warned/banned.
This is common sense. if the topic is MSL, you don't talk about Kpop. Go to the kpop thread if you want to talk about that.
I'm pretty sure you worded what you wrote before that completely differently in the thread you got a warning for. Link to thread please.
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Rofl i thought this was about the fact every build he does can loose so easily to scouting
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On January 13 2011 22:24 Mandalor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:21 kwkwookw wrote:On January 13 2011 22:06 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
. Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community. also, i just found out today but if you talk about kpop or anything not related to msl day 3 in a msl day 3 thread, you will get warned/banned. so in the TL forums, you can't really talk about certain stuff unless you want to get warned/banned. This is common sense. if the topic is MSL, you don't talk about Kpop. Go to the kpop thread if you want to talk about that. I'm pretty sure you worded what you wrote before that completely differently in the thread you got a warning for. Link to thread please.
It was during a long commercial break when kpop was on the stream and the topic on hand was about kpop in the thread (everyone was talking about it at that point). So to someone unfamiliar to tl rules, it wasn't "common sense" at the time. You say it's common sense but that's from your perspective b/c it certainly wasn't for me, and for the 20 other ppl talking about it too.
You can look up the day9 post looking at my profile history.
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I think it's fine, if Blizzard makes it easy to abuse, then they should not use the ladder to qualify tournaments. There wasn't any rule specifying you couldn't play rock paper scissors inside the game.
In my opinion it's not worse than all the foreigners who dodged / kicked out of their games every single korean they encountered during the TSL2 ladder qualification. Their wasn't any rule saying you couldn't ban koreans of your game, so they banned the koreans. Only Idra / White-ra / Ret and a couple of others didn't ban the koreans. So lame 
(don't misunderstand me, the TSL2 was the greatest foreign tournament EVER, it's just that the situation for me is pretty comparable, Choyafou is just getting quicker wins with a 50% ratio, while TSLers who dodge koreans were getting easier games)
Also the fact using the ladder to qualify tournaments not long after the release of the game makes me think about this haha :
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/blogitems.php?site=pgt&page=15
Boonbag aka oTTeR, a french Brood war player who bought in 1999 for 50$ a top128 ladder account to qualify to the KBK tournament in Korea (equivalent to the GSL back then). His story is amazing and the link I put is only the first blog of the series. A must read for sure !
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On January 13 2011 22:31 kwkwookw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:24 Mandalor wrote:On January 13 2011 22:21 kwkwookw wrote:On January 13 2011 22:06 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
. Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community. also, i just found out today but if you talk about kpop or anything not related to msl day 3 in a msl day 3 thread, you will get warned/banned. so in the TL forums, you can't really talk about certain stuff unless you want to get warned/banned. This is common sense. if the topic is MSL, you don't talk about Kpop. Go to the kpop thread if you want to talk about that. I'm pretty sure you worded what you wrote before that completely differently in the thread you got a warning for. Link to thread please. It was during a long commercial break when kpop was on the stream and the topic on hand was about kpop in the thread (everyone was talking about it at that point). So to someone unfamiliar to tl rules, it wasn't "common sense" at the time. You say it's common sense but that's from your perspective b/c it certainly wasn't for me, and for the 20 other ppl talking about it too. You can look up the day9 post looking at my profile history.
That seems quite unfair, there's been a fair share of kpop/music talk in the GSL threads.
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wait... this means there are a lot of ppl that agreed to play RPS with him.
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On January 13 2011 22:21 kwkwookw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:06 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
. Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community. actually, you're wrong. teamliquid moderators will warn or ban you for posting stuff the mods don't agree with. on the day9 state of the game thread, i wrote my honest opinion that although day9's intentions for making sc2 into esports is credible, before sc2 can be popularized as an esport, the game itself has to undergo major improvements to make it an entertaining game that is more balanced, better maps, and more conducive to long, macro games with stuff going on everywhere in the map like bw. and guess what? i get warned for being a bw vs sc2 troll. also, i just found out today but if you talk about kpop or anything not related to msl day 3 in a msl day 3 thread, you will get warned/banned. so in the TL forums, you can't really talk about certain stuff unless you want to get warned/banned.
One of those things is posting that you're going to get banned for what you're saying. If you wish it to be so, a mod will gladly comply to a request to ban you.
Cheating is cheating, even if it's irrelevant to the tournaments choya is in. I'm honestly shocked he'd do something like this -.- It gives e-sports a terrible image, too.
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Doesn't seem like "scandal" material to me. Maybe slap on the wrist material.
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in my opinion, some common game abuse (like for exemple the build/cancel pylon to be able to go though a tight walloff or the clic on mineral to make workers ignore colisions) are much more amoral than asking a oponent to leave.
yes those are often patched by blizzard (and to me it's the proof of their amorality) but used by a toon of people until their are patched. and people say they use it just cause they can and it's not patched yet, or cause the same kind of thing were common in BW, and a lot of people agree with them.
i think this kind of abuse is more damaging than leader abuse because we actualy see them in tournament.
yes leader abuse is bad, it can give you access to tournament that you wouldn't normaly be allowed into, but well if you must cheat your way to a tournament then you will probably be crushed hard in it.
i'm all for the completely fair play but i'm pointing it's often hard to decide the thing that are fair play from the thing that are cheating/abusing.
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Did he do anything outside of the rules?
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1488 Posts
I've been active in many different individual and team competitions and I can only give this a thumbs down. It's bad sportsmanship when an individual takes it upon himself to ignore the commonly agreed rules of playing a competition. Even the rules that are not written down should be uphold.
I've never read Blizzard's Code of Conduct or any other legal notice that was presented to me prior to joining the ladder, but I know trading wins by using rock-paper-scissors is wrong. And how do I know that, common sense morality.
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On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before.
I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition.
It also extends to the TSL because according to that argument we should have allowed abusers to play in our tournaments.
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I don't see why so many people think this is cheating. He is not playing outside the rules of the ladder system and he's not doing anything to benefit him.
If 4 Code S players on the same team occupied the ladder ranks 1-4, and then intentionally forfeited their games against their teammate to get him to rank 5 so GOM will select him for Code B, that is suspicious and people would throw fits. This is obviously cheating. Messing around on ladder is not cheating. But you know honestly, I think even this obviously unethical situation isn't stopped by the Blizzard's ToS. they might just ban him because blizzard can ban him for any reason, but they won't be able to say we banned him for violating the rules until they change the ToS.
What choya is doing is neither professional or unprofessional. He is just having fun messing around. Professional basketball players do this fairly commonly. They'll join some local tournament, many with cash prizes, and just have fun and mess around the people there.
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On January 13 2011 22:31 kwkwookw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:24 Mandalor wrote:On January 13 2011 22:21 kwkwookw wrote:On January 13 2011 22:06 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
. Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community. also, i just found out today but if you talk about kpop or anything not related to msl day 3 in a msl day 3 thread, you will get warned/banned. so in the TL forums, you can't really talk about certain stuff unless you want to get warned/banned. This is common sense. if the topic is MSL, you don't talk about Kpop. Go to the kpop thread if you want to talk about that. I'm pretty sure you worded what you wrote before that completely differently in the thread you got a warning for. Link to thread please. It was during a long commercial break when kpop was on the stream and the topic on hand was about kpop in the thread (everyone was talking about it at that point). So to someone unfamiliar to tl rules, it wasn't "common sense" at the time. You say it's common sense but that's from your perspective b/c it certainly wasn't for me, and for the 20 other ppl talking about it too. You can look up the day9 post looking at my profile history.
you know what, I actually did.
you called day9 a "sc2 fanboi". nuff said.
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EPT
