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Blizzard didn't set a great precedent when they knew people were trading bronze league wins for profile pictures and let that slide. This is even lamer than that.
One of the things that eventually sucked about SC/BW was the deterioration of the ladder. I've enjoyed how so far SC2 ladder has been a reasonable reflection of talent(most of the top players are high on the ladder across all regions) and the integrity of the ladder has been kept in tact so far. The more important the ladder is and the more it matters the better for the game since everyone can follow it, learn who new emerging players are, and make it a goal to try to move up the ladder. When it falls apart the game will be less enjoyable to follow, harder to identify new talent, and lose some of the fun competitive feel.
Crap like this shouldn't be tolerated because if a known player with a Code S will do this shit others certainly will with less to lose and then the slipper slope starts.
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On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition.
Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway.
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On January 13 2011 17:28 Plexa wrote:
Oh perhaps he did it trying to cover up his match history? idk.
That makes a lot of sense to me...
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On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition. Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway.
He's gaining points faster, imagine how many games, and thus points you go through playing 1 minute RPS games
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On January 13 2011 23:10 confusedcrib wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition. Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway. He's gaining points faster, imagine how many games, and thus points you go through playing 1 minute RPS games
I'm fairly certain the ladder is about amount of points, and not how fast you get them.
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On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:
Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway.
Ladder is not only about winning a % of your matches it's also about putting in your time to climb it. They are wintrading to rise up the ladder quicker, the fact that he would have won them anyway actually doesn't matter. It's an argument that was sometimes brought up during the TSL abuse as well; Dimaga, Advocate, F91 were all tremendous players. EASILY good enough to qualify, and I really mean easily. They didn't put in the time, fell behind, resorted to win trading to make it into the required spots. They would have made it anyway if they had put in the time. Doesn't matter. It's not about how good you are it's about the process you go through to show this.
Again though, and I seemingly have to repeat this over and over, my whole argument is aimed at the people saying it is fine to wintrade if the ladder mechanics allow this process (but the rules don't). I am not talking about Choya because what he did is actually very minor since it had no influence on anything important.
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How is that possible? I have always won as many points as I have lost, most of the time, without the bonus pool ofc.
Edit: Also I thought Blizzard used the MMR to pick ppl for their tournaments anyway (and maybe GOM as well, since they are partners with Blizz).
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On January 13 2011 23:12 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:10 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition. Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway. He's gaining points faster, imagine how many games, and thus points you go through playing 1 minute RPS games I'm fairly certain the ladder is about amount of points, and not how fast you get them.
The faster you get them, the more you will have.
If a typical game takes approximately 10 minutes, but an RPS game takes like, 1 minute or less, then you can fit, of course, approximately 10 games in the time it would take you to finish 1. So you could get more points in 10 minutes doing RPS games than in 10 minutes that it takes to finish one game.
You will get more points if you get them faster, unless you don't do it often. Of course the more you win, the fewer points you are likely to get, so it isn't huge, plus not everyone will agree to it so it's not a huge destroyer of the ladder's integrity, but it still hurts it.
This kind of abuse makes me think a draw time period would be good, so that if a disconnect or sudden need to leave happens for one of the players, it doesn't hurt them and also so that abuse such as this will not be as lucrative for gaining/losing points. I'm not even sure why they don't have it.
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lol I had someone asking me for this rock-paper-scissors today when laddering I was wondering what the fuck was wrong with him, makes more sense now
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On January 13 2011 23:12 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:10 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition. Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway. He's gaining points faster, imagine how many games, and thus points you go through playing 1 minute RPS games I'm fairly certain the ladder is about amount of points, and not how fast you get them.
I'm a 1900 diamond, go ahead and ask anyone how much that means right now vs a month after launch. The ladder is all about how fast you get there, because the people at the top are always rising. I'm having trouble grasping how you don't understand this.
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I don't think this is a big deal. First of all, all the people you play with are random, so you can't realistically give free wins. It's really up to the players to decide if they want to play a normal game of starcraft or just do this because you can't force them to play out a match. There is no difference between this and agreeing to have one person drone rush and the other person hold position. It's too difficult to gauge the intentions of the players when there are so many games.
I do agree that this can mess up real stuff like GSL invites or top 200 lists, etc. but I think in those cases, whoever's compiling the list or doing the invites should take a look at match history.
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I wish I could do this for all my PvP matches since it's basically rock paper scissors anyways.
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On January 13 2011 23:25 arterian wrote:
I wish I could do this for all my PvP matches since it's basically rock paper scissors anyways.
You should just 4gate every PvP, it's like the atomic bomb in RPS.
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On January 13 2011 23:15 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:
Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway. Ladder is not only about winning a % of your matches it's also about putting in your time to climb it. They are wintrading to rise up the ladder quicker, the fact that he would have won them anyway actually doesn't matter. It's an argument that was sometimes brought up during the TSL abuse as well; Dimaga, Advocate, F91 were all tremendous players. EASILY good enough to qualify, and I really mean easily. They didn't put in the time, fell behind, resorted to win trading to make it into the required spots. They would have made it anyway if they had put in the time. Doesn't matter. It's not about how good you are it's about the process you go through to show this.
I think it should be about being good at Starcraft 2. Setting arbitrary standards like "you have put time in" or "you have to be mannered" and calling foul play just because they are our standards is twisted.
My point is not that he on code S and would have beat everyone without a sweat - come on, it's choya. It's that if Blizzard introduces a dumb system (hidden rating) the players have the right to play it as they wish, as long as within the rules. Winning by the opponent leaving is within the rules.
I understand how frustrating it is to have like, HuK battling his way to 2 accounts in the top five then a scrub RPSing to the top, but to call it a scandal and ask for punishment is ridiculous.
On January 13 2011 23:19 RageOverdose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:12 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 23:10 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition. Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway. He's gaining points faster, imagine how many games, and thus points you go through playing 1 minute RPS games I'm fairly certain the ladder is about amount of points, and not how fast you get them. The faster you get them, the more you will have. If a typical game takes approximately 10 minutes, but an RPS game takes like, 1 minute or less, then you can fit, of course, approximately 10 games in the time it would take you to finish 1. So you could get more points in 10 minutes doing RPS games than in 10 minutes that it takes to finish one game. You will get more points if you get them faster, unless you don't do it often. Of course the more you win, the fewer points you are likely to get, so it isn't huge, plus not everyone will agree to it so it's not a huge destroyer of the ladder's integrity, but it still hurts it. This kind of abuse makes me think a draw time period would be good, so that if a disconnect or sudden need to leave happens for one of the players, it doesn't hurt them and also so that abuse such as this will not be as lucrative for gaining/losing points. I'm not even sure why they don't have it.
You don't understand the ladder.
Draw time would allow opponent dodging.
On January 13 2011 23:22 confusedcrib wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:12 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 23:10 confusedcrib wrote:On January 13 2011 23:09 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 22:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 22:20 enzym wrote:
His argument is that it is not up to Nazgul to decide what is important to tournament level players and what isn't. It's blizzards ladder, so blizzard has a say here. Choya also plays in tournaments, so these tournaments have a say, if respective rules have been in place before. I'm hardly saying anything about Choya. As someone above said Choya deserves a slap on the wrist in form of a light penalty but nothing special really. The majority of my posts are directed at the people who say it is fine to abuse a ladder simply because it is possible and are unrelated to Choya specifically. Their argument extends to every level of competition. Definitely it's not fine to abuse, but I'd like to know why this is abuse in the first place. Considering that choyafOu isn't gaining any points he would not anyway. He's gaining points faster, imagine how many games, and thus points you go through playing 1 minute RPS games I'm fairly certain the ladder is about amount of points, and not how fast you get them. I'm a 1900 diamond, go ahead and ask anyone how much that means right now vs a month after launch. The ladder is all about how fast you get there, because the people at the top are always rising. I'm having trouble grasping how you don't understand this.
Once his points hits his true rating he would gain nothing from this.
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On January 13 2011 17:25 Plexa wrote:
What is the point in this? What does he stand to gain from getting high in the ladder when he's already a Code S player?
Yeah seriously... So he's just having some fun with it, whatever, not like he's cheating to get into a tournament.
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On January 13 2011 23:48 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 17:25 Plexa wrote:
What is the point in this? What does he stand to gain from getting high in the ladder when he's already a Code S player? Yeah seriously... So he's just having some fun with it, whatever, not like he's cheating to get into a tournament.
Ya he was having so much fun he had to apologize for it! He obviously found out he was doing something wrong, it's just another way to abuse the system. Just play the game how it's suppose to be played... everyone always looks for shortcuts... and that's when they get burned.*BURN NOISE*
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On January 13 2011 23:44 Soap wrote:
I think it should be about being good at Starcraft 2. Setting arbitrary standards like "you have put time in" or "you have to be mannered" and calling foul play just because they are our standards is twisted.
My point is not that he on code S and would have beat everyone without a sweat - come on, it's choya. It's that if Blizzard introduces a dumb system (hidden rating) the players have the right to play it as they wish, as long as within the rules. Winning by the opponent leaving is within the rules.
I understand how frustrating it is to have like, HuK battling his way to 2 accounts in the top five then a scrub RPSing to the top, but to call it a scandal and ask for punishment is ridiculous.
You can put everything aside as an arbitrary standard, but it is commonly accepted that ladders are about actually playing, and not just speculation on who is a good player. If you don't play any games in a ladder you shouldn't be ranked high. If you want to see ranking where people speculate on who is good just read our power rank.
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On January 13 2011 23:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:44 Soap wrote:
I think it should be about being good at Starcraft 2. Setting arbitrary standards like "you have put time in" or "you have to be mannered" and calling foul play just because they are our standards is twisted.
My point is not that he on code S and would have beat everyone without a sweat - come on, it's choya. It's that if Blizzard introduces a dumb system (hidden rating) the players have the right to play it as they wish, as long as within the rules. Winning by the opponent leaving is within the rules.
I understand how frustrating it is to have like, HuK battling his way to 2 accounts in the top five then a scrub RPSing to the top, but to call it a scandal and ask for punishment is ridiculous.
You can put everything aside as an arbitrary standard, but it is commonly accepted that ladders are about actually playing, and not just speculation on who is a good player. If you don't play any games in a ladder you shouldn't be ranked high. If you want to see ranking where people speculate on who is good just read our power rank.
Why would it be speculative? Sadly we have to wait for other players to get their points back after promotion to Masters, but that's Blizzard's fault.
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On January 13 2011 23:57 Utinni wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:48 GreEny K wrote:On January 13 2011 17:25 Plexa wrote:
What is the point in this? What does he stand to gain from getting high in the ladder when he's already a Code S player? Yeah seriously... So he's just having some fun with it, whatever, not like he's cheating to get into a tournament. Ya he was having so much fun he had to apologize for it! He obviously found out he was doing something wrong, it's just another way to abuse the system. Just play the game how it's suppose to be played... everyone always looks for shortcuts... and that's when they get burned.*BURN NOISE*
He's an S class player... He apologized because people like you think it's a big deal when it really isn't and he didn't want his fanbase to decline for something so trivial.
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EPT
