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What's the issue here? He left games on purpose? How the hell is that abuse? If laddersystem was so broken that you'd get to top by leaving every 2nd game I still wouldn't see the point in blaming some "pro" for doing it, when clearly it shouldn't benefit him at all -> if ladder is broken like that it can't be used as qualification board to GSL or other tournaments to begin with.
I played like 50 games yesterday, starting from 2300p. I played like shit, got +23p from every win at first, but when I got to like 2800p most games have turned into "teams even". I was 3,2k before patch, so I'm seeing this just as bnet's way to give old ratings back to those who deserve them. Thus I'd think choya is just demoting his own real rating by doing this, and eventually won't be near the top if he continues this.
Really, how can ladder wins/losses count as "scandal" no matter what you do? Unless it's third party program like maphack, I can't see anything to make scandalous over what you do in bnet.
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On January 13 2011 21:35 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:34 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 21:31 sleepingdog wrote:On January 13 2011 21:28 Soap wrote:
If anything this is more fair because his points are approaching his true, hidden rating. Wtf? The system assumes you are at your "true" rating when you have 50/50. Now who knows how the games would go if you play them out? Maybe you just suck, got lucky for a while and now continue to lose? Who says Choya "would" indeed win all these games? Just because he is code S? In the long run he'll have 50/50 wins/losses and his MMR remains stable. This is akin to saying poker is rigged because someone can win several hands in a row. Guess what: he'll also lose several times in a row. This makes so little sense in so many ways. In the long run he'll have 50/50, yes, but only THEN, when he's matched up against opponents of the same skill. Who knows, maybe he is currently overrated and should LOSE more games to approach his true rating? Then getting 50/50 from rock-paper-scissors inflates his points more than he'd deserve.
He cant keep doing this all the way back to the points he had before, players who think they are better then him would ofcause not agree to this when they start loseing more then 1-5 points from a loss and him doing this against weaker/lower ranked players would be bad for him since he lose more points from a loss then gain from a win.
This is only going to work for him until he gets some of the points back not all.
What his doing is wrong thought but cant realy blame him much when blizzard went this way with master league.
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reset his points; only solution I see honestly.
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On January 13 2011 17:40 Cambam wrote:
Just a quick and efficient way to get his displayed rating up to his hidden rating (MMR), because of the master leauge reset. And it looks like it worked, he is #1 on KR ladder at the moment.
It will stop working once his displayed rating reaches his hidden rating. Read Excalibur_Z's thread on how the ladder system works.
Here's a quick rundown:
Let's say he gets promoted to masters and reset to 2400 displayed rating. Meanwhile, we'll say his MMR is 3000. He plays a game against IMNestea who is also 2400 displayed, 3000 MMR (hypothetically).
IMNestea will appear favored to choya and choya will appear favored to IMNestea. This is because the favored system works by comparing your opponents HIDDEN rating to your DISPLAYED rating. Thus:
IMNestea's HIDDEN rating of 3000 > choya's DISPLAYED rating of 2400
and vice versa.
Everyone will be favored to choya (and thus give +20~ and -5~) until his displayed rating catches up to his hidden rating.
Hope that made sense. It's just choya's clever way of skyrocketing to the top of the ladder faster than everyone else. But like I said, it will stop working eventually.
Thanks for posting this.
The RPS thing is one thing to understand but the why the points behave like this i didn't get.
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Canada13410 Posts
I dont know why he did it but I still feel that he should be playing his matches through and not just RPS-ing to get points :S
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On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
This is why I love you, Grack.
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Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
The idea that an agreement has been made between players to decide the results off their match independently of their skill is absolutely not in breach of any express condition in Blizzards terms and conditions.
I note that you said Blizzard has the discretion to ban an account for any reason of their choice, however I assure you that this term is unconscionable and would be ruled out in any common law judicial system if it was used for the purpose that you adduced.
A contract where the usage rights of a piece of intellectual property has been provided to the user for consideration cannot contain a clause whereby the creator has absolute control over the usage, as it would deem their contra-consideration as illusory and an order would be made for damages, specific performance or a mandatory injunction.
Next, I'd like to point out that you clearly do not separate the clear line between morals and legality.It is very fortunate that legislators and members of the judiciary are not as near sighted as some of the members of Team Liquid who profess the same view as Liquid Nazgul. If such an ends-justifies-the-means approach was taken, then it would lead to chaos and uncertainty in the legal world as it stands.
For example, people could no longer use trusts as a form of tax avoidance because it is recognized that trusts are often arrangements where money is transferred to a trustee for a beneficiary to avoid duties that would otherwise be attributable such as stamp duty, estate duties.
- Anyone, including Choya, if he or his family would be fined a lot of money because he found a way to abuse the legal system and use trusts to manage his finances to avoid tax.
- Similarly, the richest people in the world would actually be paying taxes rather than close to nothing to to very ingenious tax arrangements.
The way the legal system works in common law countries is that it separates its organs into three different parts: the legislative, the executive and the judiciary. One makes the laws, the other applies them and the other interprets them. Here, there is clearly no law against what Choya is doing. Arguing that there is an arbitrary clause that allows Blizzard to do whatever they want does not support Nazgul's argument that he should be banned. Everyone who purchases the game is free to play the game as they will. If people wanted to get smart, they could still play the same game and then pretend to lose by playing standard and building insufficient army to defend against a rush by the other player. The fact is, it doesn't need to go there. People can do whatever they want - even drone rush if they felt like it.
It is the job of the legislators, in this case, the rule makers to ensure that the conditions of use reflect their intention. If someone has found a legitimate way to use the system to their advantage, then the rules should be amended. There is nothing that can justify the individual player from taking advantage of a loop hole in the system. Hate the game, don't hate the player.
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Why is this being called a 'scandal'? It's just a guy fooling around on the ladder. LOL, Choya performs every other type of cheese known to toss, why not go that extra step?
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On January 13 2011 21:57 Nemireck wrote:
Why is this being called a 'scandal'? It's just a guy fooling around on the ladder. LOL, Choya performs every other type of cheese known to toss, why not go that extra step?
Because Starcraft 2 is the "Master Race" of e-sports and anyone doing something shaddy must be pointed out and expunged for not playing like everyone else thinks he should.
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On January 13 2011 17:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser. Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house?
I get where you're coming from. I think most ppl don't really care though because mostly, only low level tournaments would rely on ladder points for qualifiers, not tournaments like the osl or msl, etc. and most ppl don't watch/participate in these low level tournaments.
as for the gsl, yes you did mention about the GomTV house qualifiers process. in this case, choya's actions would be "unfair" but tbh, the selection process isn't fair in the first place (and neither does the gomtv house qualifier process apply to choya anyway but that's been said already and is not my point). you do realize GomTV is going out of their way to get more foreigners into the gsl right? they're automatically adding 4 foreigners (out of our recommendation too) and now they are also planning to provide free housing to 8 foreigners who will make up the gomtv house. since foreigners won't come to korea to attend qualifiers, GomTV is planning to rely on ladder points. it's a privilege that foreigners even get the chance to apply for a place in the gsl just from their ladder points b/c they refuse to come to korea for qualifiers; no matter what kind of global/international aspirations/bs the gsl might throw out, the gsl still remains strictly as a korean sc2 tournament that does not have obligations to have a certain # of foreign competitors and employing these measure to attract foreigners is not being fair to other ppl who actually go to/are in korea for qualifiers or those who make the qualifiers but have to pay their own rent instead of staying in gomtvhouse.
i understand your message, but i think your example of using gomtv house is misleading. of course, you may say that just because the selection process isn't fair doesn't mean ppl can abuse it and that is true. but in that case, you should not just fault ppl like choya but also tournaments that employ such a flawed measure of qualification.
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It is GSL related because he is a GSL player.
It is a scandal because he is abusing the system.
It matters because the ladder does matter for some tourneys.
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On January 13 2011 21:18 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:15 Phenny wrote:
I mean no disrespect Sir Nazgul but,
Why is it so serious? Why can't people freely decide how they want to play the game (not including cheating of course, which this isn't)? Sure it inflates his ladder points, but if they weren't used for some tournament qualifications (which is the only reason I am opposed to it) it wouldn't be of any benefit to him. Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:12 Morisal wrote:
Actually, it's called a difference of opinion.. It's not just a difference of opinion, it's much more than that. These opinions as you call it, of ladder abuse being fine, have ruined Esports for the past years and should not just be accepted so easily as a difference of opinion. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108352I want to state again that this Choya thing is not bad at all compared to people doing it for worse intentions. I'm not saying what he did is equal to what these guys did in the TSL. However the approval of the abuse as part of Bnet mechanics is exactly the same as the mechanics people used when abusing their way into the TSL. Saying it is not a big deal because he didn't have much to gain is fine, saying it's not a big deal because people should freely be allowed to wintrade however, that is disturbing.
Do you want to enforce Kespa-like rules to every hobby bw player there is in order to "preserve esports", while ruining the game (it is a game after all) in the process?
I see where you are coming from and we should be concerned about abuse in serious competitions and do our best to stop it. The thing here is though that you can't just make up some weird rule for yourself, that every player there is has to take ladder 100% seriously, must play his best every game and is not allowed to fool around. The only one who could establish and enforce such rules for the ladder are blizzard themselves, because it is their game, ladder and servers.
I agree with you 100% if you were open enough to modify that last sentence toSaying it is not a big deal because he didn't have much to gain is fine, saying it's not a big deal because people should freely be allowed to wintrade in serious competitions however, that is disturbing.
If you don't see that at all, which I'm not sure about - maybe you just didn't express it very well, then I'm as upset about you as you are about people accepting it as meaningless.
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On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
The gracken pulled a funny.
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On January 13 2011 21:56 RetFan wrote:
Dear Liquid Nazgul,
as you are the moderator of this site, I want to make sure that I make it clear that I respectfully disagree with your opinion. As you are the owner of this site, I hope that you will give me the privilege of speaking freely within reason as on your site, you have absolute discretion to do as you will. With that being said, I will continue.
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Don't act like he's so pretentious he'd ban you for disagreeing with him. And your argument I feel was made without even reading his, the legality of what Choya is doing is not what he's questioning, just the code of conduct amongst tournament players and how Choya's little "games" are indeed harmful to the community.
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Nobody forced his opponents to leave when they lost the rock paper scissors game.
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Actually confusedcrib, when you first sign up for Teamliquid, some of the first rules are that THIS IS OUR HOUSE AND WE HAVE OUR RULES. I am certainly very wary of what to post on these forums, especially if it is against the views of a moderator.
How you define community is very important. The Starcraft II community extends way beyond the confines of the TL community. Here, the target demographic may take laddering and rankings very seriously.
However, between a group of 12-13 year olds who have never heard of TL, this may be completely irrelevant. They just want to have fun and do what they want. Why should one community, or even select members of the community have the right to impose what people should and shouldn't do based on their views? As enzym said, why does everyone have to take the ladder seriously? Because you say so?
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On January 13 2011 17:36 exarchrum wrote:
A win rate of 50% won't get him very high on the ladder. Anyway it seems like he was just having some fun so let him.
It sure as hell will if he's gaining 20 points when he wins and loses 2 when he loses. Anyway though, I really don't see the point of doing this, seems dumb.
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The only scandal in this is that ppl dont realise that Choya would have won those matches aynways.
He is a Class S GSL Player and will mostlikely rip up everyone in his devision. So he decided to offer his oponnents to RPS about outcome of the game for w/e reason and THEY AGREE TO TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET A FREE WIN AGAINST HIM. If they didnt agree, they could have just played him and still lose...
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On January 13 2011 22:11 RetFan wrote:
Actually confusedcrib, when you first sign up for Teamliquid, some of the first rules are that THIS IS OUR HOUSE AND WE HAVE OUR RULES. I am certainly very wary of what to post on these forums, especially if it is against the views of a moderator.
How you define community is very important. The Starcraft II community extends way beyond the confines of the TL community. Here, the target demographic may take laddering and rankings very seriously.
However, between a group of 12-13 year olds who have never heard of TL, this may be completely irrelevant. They just want to have fun and do what they want. Why should one community, or even select members of the community have the right to impose what people should and shouldn't do based on their views? As enzym said, why does everyone have to take the ladder seriously? Because you say so?
You're not going to agree no matter what anyone says so this is all pointless but: Nazgul is saying his opinion, and what I glean from it is:
Ladder is important to tournament level players
Choya is a tournament level player
Therefore Choya should not cheat on the ladder, because it's like a tournament
And you don't have any arguments, besides:
a. What he is doing is legal and
b. We shouldn't impose our opinions on people
Oh, and your whole, "Oh god Nazgul please don't ban me for disagreeing with you" thing is unnecessary, realize that if your argument is actually respectful, he has no reason to ban you; never mind the pandering BS.
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Could be practising for GSL and ex. if he was to meet a Zerg, he would just ask for rock, scissor, paper any non-zerg he meets.
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EPT
