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On January 13 2011 21:00 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 17:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser. Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house? What if it is used to get into Code B qualifiers? What if it is used to get into Blizzcon (Blizzard picked Huk and Select from the ladder)? Don't let it come to a situation where you need to judge someones motivation on why he abused the ladder. You will never be able to prove it. Now I'm not asking you to think Choya is evil because realistically this is relatively innocent. But don't say who cares or what does ladder even matter, because next time it happens and it does have influence on a bigger event you will have to bite your tongue. And you will realize that the attitude of saying ladder abuse is fine because it doesn't matter is what caused all the larger problems to begin. If Blizzard is smart they give him some sort of penalty to let everyone know this is simply not allowed. If they don't it's giving people permission to do the same in preparation for their Code B qualifiers. I think giving a ton of tournament qualification spots on a flawed ladder system that doesn't work so magnificently isn't the best idea in the first place. Points are getting too inflated already and it doesn't really show any true measure of skill. I was always a fan of the closed ladders used for TSL1 and TSL2 type things. This hidden MMR stuff messes up the ladder to a point where it really shouldn't be used for tournament places. That being said I do agree with you that abuse should be avoided at all times. Doesn't set a good precedent.
I appreciate the nice comments about TSL but ICCup also rewarded activity.. what Choya did would be possible there as well, and there is no way we would have allowed it under some ridiculous mention of the system making it possible, like some of the comments here seem to think. Absolutely dumbfounded that people think this should be allowed simply because it's possible. Some of the most shortsighted stuff I've seen on TL in a while.
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On January 13 2011 21:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:00 Jayme wrote:On January 13 2011 17:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser. Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house? What if it is used to get into Code B qualifiers? What if it is used to get into Blizzcon (Blizzard picked Huk and Select from the ladder)? Don't let it come to a situation where you need to judge someones motivation on why he abused the ladder. You will never be able to prove it. Now I'm not asking you to think Choya is evil because realistically this is relatively innocent. But don't say who cares or what does ladder even matter, because next time it happens and it does have influence on a bigger event you will have to bite your tongue. And you will realize that the attitude of saying ladder abuse is fine because it doesn't matter is what caused all the larger problems to begin. If Blizzard is smart they give him some sort of penalty to let everyone know this is simply not allowed. If they don't it's giving people permission to do the same in preparation for their Code B qualifiers. I think giving a ton of tournament qualification spots on a flawed ladder system that doesn't work so magnificently isn't the best idea in the first place. Points are getting too inflated already and it doesn't really show any true measure of skill. I was always a fan of the closed ladders used for TSL1 and TSL2 type things. This hidden MMR stuff messes up the ladder to a point where it really shouldn't be used for tournament places. That being said I do agree with you that abuse should be avoided at all times. Doesn't set a good precedent. Absolutely dumbfounded that people think this should be allowed simply because it's possible. Some of the most shortsighted stuff I've seen on TL in a while.
its the same flawed mindset of people saying that using exploits/bugs is ok cause its blizzards fault for not fixing em.
always people that think that way out there...
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Actually, it's called a difference of opinion..
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On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
LMAO
Wow, that was funny..
I also don't see the point in doing this if you're already in Code S. Maybe he's doing ot for his ego or something..
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This might be a good time to question again why any important things are decided on ladderrank/points.
Be it by buying a new account to grab a fresh bonus pool or winsharing or playing rock/paper/scissors the official ladder will always be exploitable.
You will not notice everyone who does this, so it has to be solved by not allowing ladder results to be important for anything of relevance.
Unfortunalty Blizzard tries to go the other way via GOM. Other tournaments should not follow this route.
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Well its mostly stupid on blizzards side since they reset ladder points when you got into master league but you keep your high MMR so you lose very few points and get alot until you reach ladder points matching your MMR.
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On January 13 2011 21:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:00 Jayme wrote:On January 13 2011 17:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser. Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house? What if it is used to get into Code B qualifiers? What if it is used to get into Blizzcon (Blizzard picked Huk and Select from the ladder)? Don't let it come to a situation where you need to judge someones motivation on why he abused the ladder. You will never be able to prove it. Now I'm not asking you to think Choya is evil because realistically this is relatively innocent. But don't say who cares or what does ladder even matter, because next time it happens and it does have influence on a bigger event you will have to bite your tongue. And you will realize that the attitude of saying ladder abuse is fine because it doesn't matter is what caused all the larger problems to begin. If Blizzard is smart they give him some sort of penalty to let everyone know this is simply not allowed. If they don't it's giving people permission to do the same in preparation for their Code B qualifiers. I think giving a ton of tournament qualification spots on a flawed ladder system that doesn't work so magnificently isn't the best idea in the first place. Points are getting too inflated already and it doesn't really show any true measure of skill. I was always a fan of the closed ladders used for TSL1 and TSL2 type things. This hidden MMR stuff messes up the ladder to a point where it really shouldn't be used for tournament places. That being said I do agree with you that abuse should be avoided at all times. Doesn't set a good precedent. I appreciate the nice comments about TSL but ICCup also rewarded activity.. what Choya did would be possible there as well, and there is no way we would have allowed it under some ridiculous mention of the system making it possible, like some of the comments here seem to think. Absolutely dumbfounded that people think this should be allowed simply because it's possible. Some of the most shortsighted stuff I've seen on TL in a while.
I mean no disrespect Sir Nazgul but,
Why is it so serious? Why can't people freely decide how they want to play the game (not including cheating of course, which this isn't)? Sure it inflates his ladder points, but if they weren't used for some tournament qualifications (which is the only reason I am opposed to it) it wouldn't be of any benefit to him.
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On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
XD Just watched him cannon rush then get totally crushed. From what I've seen, I don't think he deserves to be in code S. And cheating your way up the ladder does matter because as silly as it may be, there are people out there who work hard for their ladder rank.
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On January 13 2011 17:29 IdrA wrote:
if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does
GSL 1/13 Spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +Right after I read this, I alt-tabbed back to the GSL stream and choya was literally proxy gating! hahahaha
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On January 13 2011 21:15 Phenny wrote:
I mean no disrespect Sir Nazgul but,
Why is it so serious? Why can't people freely decide how they want to play the game (not including cheating of course, which this isn't)? Sure it inflates his ladder points, but if they weren't used for some tournament qualifications (which is the only reason I am opposed to it) it wouldn't be of any benefit to him.
On January 13 2011 21:12 Morisal wrote:
Actually, it's called a difference of opinion..
It's not just a difference of opinion, it's much more than that. These opinions as you call it, of ladder abuse being fine, have ruined Esports for the past years and should not just be accepted so easily as a difference of opinion.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108352
I want to state again that this Choya thing is not bad at all compared to people doing it for worse intentions. I'm not saying what he did is equal to what these guys did in the TSL. However the approval of the abuse as part of Bnet mechanics is exactly the same as the mechanics people used when abusing their way into the TSL.
Saying it is not a big deal because he didn't have much to gain is fine, saying it's not a big deal because people should freely be allowed to wintrade however, that is disturbing.
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On January 13 2011 21:15 Phenny wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On January 13 2011 21:00 Jayme wrote:On January 13 2011 17:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Despite ladder not being as prestigious as it could be, there is still prestige involved in laddering, and sometimes it is even used for tournament related things such as qualifiers. What if someone on Europe did this and applied for the spot in the GomTV house. You'd all be freaking out calling him a cheater and abuser. Bottom line is any player should avoid abuse at all times. He may think it's funny but it's hard to make a difference in what motivates a player to do something (funny playing around, or GomTV house qualifier, Blizzcon selection process or Code-B qualifiers). If White-Ra (picking the person least likely to do this!) did this and made it into the GomTV house, then claimed he was just playing around like Choya, who's to say he wasn't? Or what if nobody ever found out, are you allowed to 'play around' and cheat your way into the GomTV house? What if it is used to get into Code B qualifiers? What if it is used to get into Blizzcon (Blizzard picked Huk and Select from the ladder)? Don't let it come to a situation where you need to judge someones motivation on why he abused the ladder. You will never be able to prove it. Now I'm not asking you to think Choya is evil because realistically this is relatively innocent. But don't say who cares or what does ladder even matter, because next time it happens and it does have influence on a bigger event you will have to bite your tongue. And you will realize that the attitude of saying ladder abuse is fine because it doesn't matter is what caused all the larger problems to begin. If Blizzard is smart they give him some sort of penalty to let everyone know this is simply not allowed. If they don't it's giving people permission to do the same in preparation for their Code B qualifiers. I think giving a ton of tournament qualification spots on a flawed ladder system that doesn't work so magnificently isn't the best idea in the first place. Points are getting too inflated already and it doesn't really show any true measure of skill. I was always a fan of the closed ladders used for TSL1 and TSL2 type things. This hidden MMR stuff messes up the ladder to a point where it really shouldn't be used for tournament places. That being said I do agree with you that abuse should be avoided at all times. Doesn't set a good precedent. I appreciate the nice comments about TSL but ICCup also rewarded activity.. what Choya did would be possible there as well, and there is no way we would have allowed it under some ridiculous mention of the system making it possible, like some of the comments here seem to think. Absolutely dumbfounded that people think this should be allowed simply because it's possible. Some of the most shortsighted stuff I've seen on TL in a while. I mean no disrespect Sir Nazgul but, Why is it so serious? Why can't people freely decide how they want to play the game (not including cheating of course, which this isn't)? Sure it inflates his ladder points, but if they weren't used for some tournament qualifications (which is the only reason I am opposed to it) it wouldn't be of any benefit to him.
do you like checking the top200 for trends and player status?
do you like beeing matched evenly when playing?
do you think that ladder should be a place for competing against others?
do you think its ok that this might hurt other players that ARE trying to qualify over the ladder?
there are many more but if you agree on atleast one of them there is no way you can say this is ok.
/edit its no huge scandal or something. but that doesnt mean its fine and evryone should freely do that.
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No huge deal, but Blizz should do something to punish him, like 48 ladder ban and resetting ladder points. Or maybe just resetting ladder points.
Obvious abuse, and should therefore obviously be punished from an e-sports perspective. Meaning that if they want to tie the ladder into e-sports they need to punish abuse aiming to climbing the ladder. If they wont tie the ladder into e-sports at all they can ignore it imo... But they are so it should be punished.
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You believe it's abuse, doesn't mean it's a fact.
If anything this is more fair because his points are approaching his true, hidden rating. There's no parallel with iCCup as there's no hidden rating or automated matchmaking.
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Well it might not be right what his doing but the way you get into master league just suck... you will keep winning more points and only lose a few until you reach about same points as you had in diamond. Look at players like PiQLiQ who is already at 3,134 points in master league (3600 in diamond) still only loses a few points when loseing a game.
Its still wrong thought.
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On January 13 2011 21:28 Soap wrote:
If anything this is more fair because his points are approaching his true, hidden rating.
Wtf? The system assumes you are at your "true" rating when you have 50/50. Now who knows how the games would go if you play them out? Maybe you just suck, got lucky for a while and now continue to lose?
Who says Choya "would" indeed win all these games? Just because he is code S?
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On January 13 2011 21:31 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:28 Soap wrote:
If anything this is more fair because his points are approaching his true, hidden rating. Wtf? The system assumes you are at your "true" rating when you have 50/50. Now who knows how the games would go if you play them out? Maybe you just suck, got lucky for a while and now continue to lose? Who says Choya "would" indeed win all these games? Just because he is code S?
In the long run he'll have 50/50 wins/losses and his MMR remains stable. This is akin to saying poker is rigged because someone can win several hands in a row. Guess what: he'll also lose several times in a row.
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On January 13 2011 21:34 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:31 sleepingdog wrote:On January 13 2011 21:28 Soap wrote:
If anything this is more fair because his points are approaching his true, hidden rating. Wtf? The system assumes you are at your "true" rating when you have 50/50. Now who knows how the games would go if you play them out? Maybe you just suck, got lucky for a while and now continue to lose? Who says Choya "would" indeed win all these games? Just because he is code S? In the long run he'll have 50/50 wins/losses and his MMR remains stable. This is akin to saying poker is rigged because someone can win several hands in a row. Guess what: he'll also lose several times in a row.
This makes so little sense in so many ways.
In the long run he'll have 50/50, yes, but only THEN, when he's matched up against opponents of the same skill. Who knows, maybe he is currently overrated and should LOSE more games to approach his true rating? Then getting 50/50 from rock-paper-scissors inflates his points more than he'd deserve.
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How did he do rock paper scissors on the ladder? I can only think like both players messaged someone or something, but even then Choya could cheat it.
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On January 13 2011 21:35 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 21:34 Soap wrote:On January 13 2011 21:31 sleepingdog wrote:On January 13 2011 21:28 Soap wrote:
If anything this is more fair because his points are approaching his true, hidden rating. Wtf? The system assumes you are at your "true" rating when you have 50/50. Now who knows how the games would go if you play them out? Maybe you just suck, got lucky for a while and now continue to lose? Who says Choya "would" indeed win all these games? Just because he is code S? In the long run he'll have 50/50 wins/losses and his MMR remains stable. This is akin to saying poker is rigged because someone can win several hands in a row. Guess what: he'll also lose several times in a row. This makes so little sense in so many ways. In the long run he'll have 50/50, yes, but only THEN, when he's matched up against opponents of the same skill. Who knows, maybe he is currently overrated and should LOSE more games to approach his true rating? Then getting 50/50 from rock-paper-scissors inflates his points more than he'd deserve.
Then he'll lose against those who doesn't accept his offer and play the game out.
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EPT
