The only company with legal broadcasting rights, Gretech (or GomTV), and Blizzard Entertainment are suing OnGameNetwork (or OGN) for IP rights and illegal broadcasting related to (StarCraft®).
OGN has been taking advantage of Blizzard's rights intentionally in the recent years. On August 10, OGN has acquired the rights to start and broadcast Korean Air OSL Season 2 from GomTV, but has been since hosting StarCraft events and programs with no further legal rights. On October 26, OGN has revealed that they will start 2010 Bacchus OSL without consent, therefore resulting in this lawsuit.
GomTV representative Bae In Sik said that 'OGN has already agreed that the right to broadcast belongs to Blizzard and GomTV when they started Korean Air OSL Season 2, and it's too bad that they started another league illegally.' He also said that 'We tried to negotiate a fair deal, but the league has already started, and we're left with no choice but to protect our rights.'
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league on October 22, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL and MSL from KeSPA. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
GomTV is currently the only company that has the rights to broadcast events related to Starcraft and Starcraft 2. Therefore, every other company must acquire a license. OGN will thus still try to negotiate a deal, even in the midst of this lawsuit.
Very roughly translated.... hope it all makes sense. Please keep in mind that this article is provided by Blizzard and Gretech. maybe we might see a stop to this OSL?
블리자드 엔터테인먼트의 국내 e스포츠 및 방송 독점 파트너사인 그래텍(이하 곰TV)과 블리자드 엔터테인먼트(Blizzard Entertainment, Inc)는 11월 3일 온게임네트워크(이하 온게임넷)을 대상으로 블리자드 엔터테인먼트의 스타크래프트(StarCraft®) 컴퓨터 게임의 저작권 침해 및 무단 사용에 대해 공동으로 소송을 제기했다고 금일 밝혔다.
온게임넷은 수 년간 의도적이고 고의적으로 블리자드의 지적 재산권을 침해해 왔다. 온게임넷은 지난 8월 10일 ‘대한항공 스타리그 시즌 2’에 대한 개최권과 중계권의 합법적인 라이선스를 곰TV로부터 획득했지만, 이후 블리자드의 합법적인 라이선스나 곰TV의 서브 라이선스 없이 스타크래프트를 다루는 e스포츠 행사 및 여러 프로그램들을 방송해 왔다. 이어 지난 10월 26일, 온게임넷은 스타크래프트를 기반으로 한 e스포츠 대회인 온게임넷 스타리그(OSL)를 협의 없이 강행하겠다고 발표하여, 법적 소송을 불가피하게 했다.
배인식 곰TV 대표는 “온게임넷은 이미 대한항공 스타리그 시즌 2 중계에 대한 대회 개최와 방송중계 계약을 통해 블리자드의 지적 재산권과 곰TV의 라이센서로서의 권리를 인정한 바 있기 때문에, 새로운 리그를 무단으로 방송하기로 한 사실이 더욱 안타깝다”며 “우리는 그 동안 공정한 협의를 통해 합의하고자 노력해 왔으나, 대회 강행이 결정된 지금 우리와 원저작자의 권리를 보호해야겠다는 결정을 내릴 수 밖에 없었다”고 전했다.
폴 샘즈 블리자드 엔터테인먼트 최고운영책임자(Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard Entertainment)는 “지난 10월 22일 온게임넷에 곰TV로부터 라이선스를 획득하거나 스타크래프트 콘텐츠에 대한 방송을 중지할 것을 요청한 공문을 전달했으나 온게임넷으로부터 직접 회신을 받지 못했다. 대신 한국 e스포츠 협회로부터 각 방송사들의 개인 리그 일정이 담긴 공지를 받았으며, 이것은 OSL이 우리와의 협의 없이 진행될 것이라는 것을 나타냈다.” 폴 샘즈는 또 “과거에도 말했듯이 우리는 OSL과 같은 스타크래프트 리그들이 글로벌 스타크래프트 II 리그(GSL)와 공존할 수 있다고 굳게 믿고 있으며, 온게임넷이 스타크래프트 행사를 지속적으로 방송할 수 있기를 바란다. 하지만 우리의 소프트웨어에 대한 상업적인 이용이 반드시 합법적인 라이선스 획득을 통해 이루어 짐으로써 우리의 저작권을 보호하는 것은 매우 중요하다. 마지막 수단으로 법정에서 해결책을 찾아야 한다는 것을 유감스럽게 생각한다”고 더했다.
올해 5월, 블리자드 엔터테인먼트는 곰TV와 독점 e스포츠 및 방송 파트너십을 체결했으며, 이로 인해 곰TV는 블리자드 엔터테인먼트의 게임에 기반한 국내에서의 토너먼트 개최 및 e스포츠 행사 방송에 대한 독점적인 권한을 보유하게 되었다. 이 계약에 따라, 상업적인 목적으로 국내에서 블리자드 게임에 기반한 e스포츠 행사를 주최하거나 방송하고자 하는 다른 기관 및 조직들은 곰TV로부터 서브 라이선스를 획득해야 한다. 온게임넷과 최종 협의를 이룰 수 있도록 가능한 모든 방법을 지속적으로 찾기 위해 블리자드와 곰TV는 법적 절차가 진행되는 동안에도 성실히 협상에 계속 임할 것이다.
I think for a sensitive issue like this, you should edit your translation to match and include all the details so there isn't a derailment.
Thanks for the translation though.
Does anyone have any idea if Bliz/Gom can somehow can an immediate injunction? Would there be a possible scenario, as Korean netizens describe, when police storm during the broadcasts?
Man this totally sucks...which court did it say they're suing in? If it's Korean, there's a chance that OGN might actually win, and Blizzard will lose the rights to BW in Korea
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
On November 04 2010 21:06 Wala.Revolution wrote: I think for a sensitive issue like this, you should edit your translation to match and include all the details so there isn't a derailment.
Thanks for the translation though.
Does anyone have any idea if Bliz/Gom can somehow can an immediate injunction? Would there be a possible scenario, as Korean netizens describe, when police storm during the broadcasts?
I think such a thing would have been done with MBC already. Or maybe they hope the lawsuits will affect negotiations significantly enough that injunctions can be delayed?
A few questions that I have: I know lots of MBC content is related to BW. How many similar shows does OGN have? Would it be a huge hit to their current production?
Has the Proleague been mentioned in the statements? Or only the OSL/MSL?
Are there any comments from Gretech? If they are harsh enough, maybe CJ influence isn't that big there?
And there must be Korean Netizen responses after two lawsuits. While the whole spectrum is definitely represented, like in this forum, I'm wondering about the majority opinion. Such huge news are probably even Evening news worthy over there.
And has the Ministry of Culture updated their position? A lot of questions, but I have no idea about any of these.
On November 04 2010 21:04 swanized wrote: so, CJ is sueing CJ?
I'm sure it's more Blizzard than Gretech. Either way I honestly thing this will be status quo. As you can see, MSL, OSL and PL have operated cleanly for now.
I just want an ending to all this shit asap, please.
I don't even see exactly what Blizzard is trying to achieve, and why they would take such a big risk as to fight a culture, that they're basing the future on.
On November 04 2010 21:06 Wala.Revolution wrote: I think for a sensitive issue like this, you should edit your translation to match and include all the details so there isn't a derailment.
Thanks for the translation though.
Does anyone have any idea if Bliz/Gom can somehow can an immediate injunction? Would there be a possible scenario, as Korean netizens describe, when police storm during the broadcasts?
I think such a thing would have been done with MBC already. Or maybe they hope the lawsuits will affect negotiations significantly enough that injunctions can be delayed?
A few questions that I have: I know lots of MBC content is related to BW. How many similar shows does OGN have? Would it be a huge hit to their current production?
Has the Proleague been mentioned in the statements? Or only the OSL/MSL?
Are there any comments from Gretech? If they are harsh enough, maybe CJ influence isn't that big there?
And there must be Korean Netizen responses after two lawsuits. While the whole spectrum is definitely represented, like in this forum, I'm wondering about the majority opinion. Such huge news are probably even Evening news worthy over there.
And has the Ministry of Culture updated their position? A lot of questions, but I have no idea about any of these.
Don't know about PL, but I assume so.
Gretech along with Blizzard supplied this statement.
Although I cannot know how accurate and well-informed these netizens are, the majority seems to be in support of Blizzard. There are varying sentiments about different aspects of this issue, regarding contribution of Ongamenet, role of KeSPA, Blizzard's attitude towards e-sports, MBCGame's position, Gretech's [attempted] contribution, and others.
I don't think this will be covered by mainstream media other than one 'news' saying that Bliz/Gretech sued OGN. But then I haven't watched Korean news in a while. (I'm talking about the nightly news casts)
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
On November 04 2010 21:06 Wala.Revolution wrote: I think for a sensitive issue like this, you should edit your translation to match and include all the details so there isn't a derailment.
Thanks for the translation though.
Does anyone have any idea if Bliz/Gom can somehow can an immediate injunction? Would there be a possible scenario, as Korean netizens describe, when police storm during the broadcasts?
I don't think I omitted any detail since I just literally translated sentence by sentence. I'm missing a couple dates tho, I'll add that in soon after I have another look at it tmw.. it's 530 AM
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
Blizzard disgusts me
How is that quote disgusting? It seems more like OGN was being unnecessarily dismissive by only giving them the schedule of the OSL in response. That sort of passive aggressive response isn't really going to be productive. But maybe I'm missing something here.
On November 04 2010 21:40 mdb wrote: Blizzard very fast are closing all the doors towards SC2 becoming a major esport in Korea.
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
Blizzard disgusts me
My thoughts exactly.
since the merge, im pretty sure the board can assign ppl from one company to jump over to help the other company, which makes alot of sense to me. it would not surprise me that paul sams was transferred from activision to blizzard in order to deal with korea
The GSL is already succeeding. It's not like people are going to stop watching it if Blizzard is mean.
I actually find it funny that so many people on this forum have been saying stuff like "but Blizzard used to be so kewl, it's all because of SC2 and Activision". I don't remember all the reasons but for me Blizzard has been a shit company since the turn of the millennium. So I don't really care what they have to say about anything and I hope that the lawsuit backfires on them big time. The use of the game assets on TV is so incidental and it has been such a long time that they should really just stop it.
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
Blizzard disgusts me
well yeah....they officially do the same to me now.....
unless sc2 start getting a proleague-style league, i cannot forsee sc2 succeeding very long. proleague most likely generate more revenue since more players are playing more frequently, and sponsors would be attracted to more air-time for their players. by suing ogn/mbc, the korean government cannot be happy since if blizzard wins, the government would lose a hell lot of revenue.
I don't believe that that KeSPA actually sent the schedule (like really (e)mail a list of the dates to Blizzard), it's just a way of saying that KeSPA made the schedule without setting things straight with blizz first.
I might of course be wrong, but sounds way too childish to first ignore someone and then shove in their face how much they ignored them in the first place.
I am on the edge of my seat and about to get up and walk away if blizz wins this, as pro bw has my only interest so far and i don't see blizz continuing the leagues if they take the rights away from OGN, MBC and KeSPA.
what the..i thought OGN managed to escape this lawsuit thing. So apparently Blizzard just wants total dominion over the eSports culture in korea and can't wait for everyone to switch over to SC2 cause of the better prices.
On November 04 2010 22:00 Invictus wrote: what the..i thought OGN managed to escape this lawsuit thing. So apparently Blizzard just wants total dominion over the eSports culture in korea and can't wait for everyone to switch over to SC2 cause of the better prices.
I hope KeSPA finds some way to increase the prize pool. Would make it a bit more lucrative to stay.
Wth man. At least OGN contracted with Gretech, so why sue them now? They are at least respecting the IP rights now that they've been asked to. Of course Blizzard would do this....=\
On November 04 2010 21:59 HeaDStrong wrote: I don't believe that that KeSPA actually sent the schedule (like really (e)mail a list of the dates to Blizzard), it's just a way of saying that KeSPA made the schedule without setting things straight with blizz first.
I might of course be wrong, but sounds way too childish to first ignore someone and then shove in their face how much they ignored them in the first place.
I am on the edge of my seat and about to get up and walk away if blizz wins this, as pro bw has my only interest so far and i don't see blizz continuing the leagues if they take the rights away from OGN, MBC and KeSPA.
I just looked over it and it clearly says they got a notice with all the schedules from KeSPA.
OGN going from a rights buyer to a pirate seems so outrageous, I feel compelled to speculate on whats going on behind the scenes.
They think they'll win any legal action. a. Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?
They don't know if they'll win. a. Just trying to represent a unified front with Kespa/MBC. b. Gretech's terms are unreasonable, and they really couldn't afford to be legal.
They think they'll lose. a. Just leveraging a tax write-off from an industry in decline.
Something crazy. a. Samsung buys BW from Vivendi. b. Korea nationalizes the game.
If Gretech has the broadcast rights to BW, why haven't they rebooted their BW starleague? I mean, if BW is still profitable compared to SC2, they would've started one or have made plans to start one since the IP debacle. I think Blizzard and Gretech wants BW to die for good in favor of SC2.
On November 04 2010 22:18 lutarez wrote: If Gretech has the broadcast rights to BW, why haven't they rebooted their BW starleague? I mean, if BW is still profitable compared to SC2, they would've started one or have made plans to start one since the IP debacle. I think Blizzard and Gretech wants BW to die for good in favor of SC2.
My understanding was they haven't run a BW league because the proteams won't participate (because of the nastiness between blizzard/gretech and ogn/mbc/kespa)
Damn, I hope they can drag this as long as necessary. When I've had a bad day at office, and I watch the games when I arrive at home, I already feel better. Thank you thank you the players, Kespa, thank you OGN and MBC, thank you the sponsors.
I know some of you are gonna say I should thank Blizzard for having made the game. And that's exactly the point. Blizzard's job was to make the game, and they've been well rewarded by selling 5 millions copies in South Korea only. And more than that, BW's legacy is what convinced all the sponsors that SC2 had a lot of potential as an esport. Would an american company like Intel had offered 180 000 dollars for a video game tournament, moreover abroad, if there hadn't been a very developed professional scene there beforehand ? Hell no. Blizzard should thank everyone the way I did too. Not suing them.
it is so hilariously obvious that blizzard would like ppl to move to sc2 and tries to enforce it with all these moves
a reasonable judge would probably force OGN et al to pay some fair amount (not so hard to quantify this, could base it on revenues or w/e) to blizzard for rights to broadcast etc and also force blizzard to accept said amount
sc has become a small business industry so hopefully legislation doesnt allow some previously uninvolved copyright holder to just come in and shut everything down whenever they feel like it, which is what they're doing if they ask for absurd amounts
this wasnt the reason copyright was invented for, it's just abuse of it
Copyright is meant for this. The negotiation failed next stop court. Its a legal move even tho I love brood war, can't help but think blizzard has all the rights to do this against illegal tourneys
On November 04 2010 22:18 lutarez wrote: If Gretech has the broadcast rights to BW, why haven't they rebooted their BW starleague? I mean, if BW is still profitable compared to SC2, they would've started one or have made plans to start one since the IP debacle. I think Blizzard and Gretech wants BW to die for good in favor of SC2.
How should they run a BW league? Nobody would be allowed to play in it, unless it is KeSPA sanctioned, and KeSPA would never agree to that.
So they made the next best thing and tried to allow the original leagues to run and to be broadcasted trough the usual channels. Sadly the negotiations about the terms and rights failed and they have to solve the differences through legal action.
I said it in the last topic, I will say it again. We don't know what happened during the negotiations and we don't know the whole truth and the intentions of all involved parties. All we get are second-hand information and PR statements from both sides (which might be correct, or might be deliberately misleading - another thing we can't know for sure). It doesn't help to be aggressive against Blizzard, KeSPA or anyone else.
Why not sue KeSPA instead of the broadcasters if their problem with IP rights only started in 2007 when the rights for Proleague started to be sold, or are they admitting they had no problem with it before that? And OGN/MBC wanted to pay license fees but they are sueing anyway... It certainly sounds like Blizzard is the ones deliberately moving the situation into a position of legal action, for their obvious own benefit. Of course a license fee is fair i don't think anyone disputes this but their demands are unreasonable to the point where they would obviously never be accepted.
As pointed out: isn't the existing BW scene the only reason there is even such major interest and possibly money in SC2 Korean eSports in the first place, so why such aggressive action towards everyone involved in the creation and running of that scene. I'm pretty sure OGN/MBC and KeSPA would have all been happy to be involved themselves in a working relationship for SC2 in a direct continuation of the successful model now, i can't imagine they are the ones causing the problems. Clearly Blizzard wants just more control and more of a cut (despite there apparently hardly being a profit) hence the inclusion of Gretech, and handing the rights solely over to them. It would made no sense for KeSPA to be the deliberately awkward party considering they would stand to benefit just as much from a new game.
On November 04 2010 22:18 lutarez wrote: If Gretech has the broadcast rights to BW, why haven't they rebooted their BW starleague? I mean, if BW is still profitable compared to SC2, they would've started one or have made plans to start one since the IP debacle. I think Blizzard and Gretech wants BW to die for good in favor of SC2.
How should they run a BW league? Nobody would be allowed to play in it, unless it is KeSPA sanctioned, and KeSPA would never agree to that.
So they made the next best thing and tried to allow the original leagues to run and to be broadcasted trough the usual channels. Sadly the negotiations about the terms and rights failed and they have to solve the differences through legal action.
I said it in the last topic, I will say it again. We don't know what happened during the negotiations and we don't know the whole truth and the intentions of all involved parties. All we get are second-hand information and PR statements from both sides (which might be correct, or might be deliberately misleading - another thing we can't know for sure). It doesn't help to be aggressive against Blizzard, KeSPA or anyone else.
And how did they managed to get Boxer, July, Nada, ......MVP, Sangho, Iron and so on?
Put some good cash in league and players will come.
On November 04 2010 22:33 ichimarugin680 wrote: Copyright is meant for this. The negotiation failed next stop court. Its a legal move even tho I love brood war, can't help but think blizzard has all the rights to do this against illegal tourneys
I gotta agree with this. But it still sucks ass.
But if i remember right, Blizzard threatened to shut down the whole game if they won't follow the 'rules'. So it really doesn't matter if they are in Korean court and if Blizzard loses this because of it.
So, did i understand the shutting down right? Can they actually shut down the game/scene somehow even if they lose?
Dear Blizzard, We love your game. Let us watch it. SC2 is already killing the scene a bit, so you don't need to be afraid BW will compete for viewers. If that's not your reason for doing this, it comes off as just spiteful. What the fuck. Love, Thopol
EDIT: And seriously? People are making Blizzard out to be the victim here? I mean, technically yeah, but it's a huge corporation bludgeoning folks for a (i think) pretty insignificant sum.
[QUOTE]On November 04 2010 22:31 AdamFox wrote: Yeah, damn Blizzard and their legal rights to allow and disallow the use of their property![/QUOT,E] Maybe if they had cared back in 2000 you would have a point. They only care now because it takes away from their current cash cow.
On November 04 2010 22:31 AdamFox wrote: Yeah, damn Blizzard and their legal rights to allow and disallow the use of their property!
Basically this.
Seriously people? we all love BW and have played it for years but for the love of god, any other company on this planet would have done the same thing only sooner, most of you are just being extremely biased.
This would have been justifiable if they took action years ago, not when sc2 has just recently released, it's so freaking obvious thry're doing it for money. Disgusting really
On November 04 2010 22:31 AdamFox wrote: Yeah, damn Blizzard and their legal rights to allow and disallow the use of their property!
Stupid old me thinking that once I've purchased and paid for something, that it becomes my propety.
Note: neither of our statements have anything to do with the real isssue ie: IP rights and how far they entend in relation to whether or not blizzard owns players creations and the rights to broadcast.
I just had to reply if only for the fact that you caused my brain to implode from the massive amount of stupid shooting out of my screen coming from your statement.
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
Blizzard disgusts me
How is that quote disgusting? It seems more like OGN was being unnecessarily dismissive by only giving them the schedule of the OSL in response. That sort of passive aggressive response isn't really going to be productive. But maybe I'm missing something here.
On November 04 2010 23:09 Elroi wrote: Lol, like a sc2 player could ever get that kind of fan base? They're only known and loved for what they did in bw.
You know, I might be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure SC2 just came out and there hasn't been much time for people to become known for what they've done with it. The point is that people are watching. They're going to see what happens and remember it.
On November 04 2010 23:07 ShadeR wrote: Stupid old me thinking that once I've purchased and paid for something, that it becomes my propety.
Yeah, but you're really only buying a license to use the software, not the software itself.
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
just stop this sc:bw vs sc2 hate. there's no reason for the community to split because of what game they prefer. i am not advocating everyone for one side, but keep bullshit like "you support kespa's side only because you're a bw fanboi".
have your opinion but dont take it to a personal level and turning this into a bw vs sc2 debate.
and remember that there always will be a possibility in the future for a similar debate but with sc2 vs sc3. now really think what side you want to pick....
On November 04 2010 23:09 Elroi wrote: Lol, like a sc2 player could ever get that kind of fan base? They're only known and loved for what they did in bw.
You know, I might be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure SC2 just came out and there hasn't been much time for people to become known for what they've done with it. The point is that people are watching. They're going to see what happens and remember it.
On November 04 2010 22:31 AdamFox wrote: Yeah, damn Blizzard and their legal rights to allow and disallow the use of their property!
Maybe if they had cared back in 2000 you would have a point. They only care now because it takes away from their current cash cow.
This. I'm going to beat a dead horse, but I'm surprised at how many still don't see it.
Why, dear Blizzard Entertainment, would you not have brought up this matter when the illegal broadcasting of your product first started? Oh, right, not only is it an annoying hassle, but at the time it was only positive advertising for your product, resulting in millions of copies being sold to the Koreans. But, you know, nowadays it could drain a tiny portion of SCII's attention. Never mind the 10 years this game spent doing what no other video game has ever done. Never mind esports. Let's just do our best to focus our attention at our shiny new product.
Actard's greed is pathetic, and I'd think twice before defending them. Who knows, in another 10 years we might ourselves in a similar situation with SCIII.
EDIT:
On November 04 2010 23:20 HeaDStrong wrote: and remember that there always will be a possibility in the future for a similar debate but with sc2 vs sc3. now really think what side you want to pick....
On November 04 2010 23:09 Elroi wrote: Lol, like a sc2 player could ever get that kind of fan base? They're only known and loved for what they did in bw.
You know, I might be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure SC2 just came out and there hasn't been much time for people to become known for what they've done with it. The point is that people are watching. They're going to see what happens and remember it.
On November 04 2010 23:07 ShadeR wrote: Stupid old me thinking that once I've purchased and paid for something, that it becomes my propety.
Yeah, but you're really only buying a license to use the software, not the software itself.
Do you thinkl they'll have time though? Won't blizzard just kill SC2 in time for Diablo3 or WC4??
Well I don't think the chances of Korea giving a shit about either of those games is very high, to be honest. And at this rate there won't be an SC3 until 2024. I doubt that there is ever going to be another success story like SC but there are plenty of other games getting viewers right now.
You're right though, the fact that Blizzard wants to control the entire process is a problem. When they stop caring, nobody else is allowed to care.
people need to understand that by "protecting" their rights, it means "extract greatest revenue from" their rights. which may or may not involve killing sc1 and the way kespa does business, which is obviously a no go in a sc2 progaming scene that blizzard has a stake in. kespa sanctions tournaments by controlling the progamers. how can blizzard tolerate some other entity controlling the way their progaming scene is run?
whether the intent is to kill sc1 or not depends on how much money they are asking. if it is high enough to be uncollectible, then obviously they are trying to kill sc1. if it is a sum that still allows ogn etc to do business, then it's something else.
on the likely scenario that the existing kespa structure collapses, the immediate losers will be the progamers and fans. however, if sc2 manages to become a successful progaming industry in korea, some kind of league structure will have to replace kespa as sc1 progamers migrate to sc2 and the team sponsors migrate as well. how exactly this league structure will shake out remains to be seen.
I wonder how much money blizzard really thinks they can make off of bw in korea to be running off sueing every body they can.
It seems like with all the money being thrown around its not more than a million dollars a year and for a multibillion dollar corporation like blizzard that really shouldn't be significant.
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
Blizzard disgusts me
How is that quote disgusting? It seems more like OGN was being unnecessarily dismissive by only giving them the schedule of the OSL in response. That sort of passive aggressive response isn't really going to be productive. But maybe I'm missing something here.
On November 04 2010 23:29 oneofthem wrote: people need to understand that by "protecting" their rights, it means "extract greatest revenue from" their rights. which may or may not involve killing sc1 and the way kespa does business, which is obviously a no go in a sc2 progaming scene that blizzard has a stake in. kespa sanctions tournaments by controlling the progamers. how can blizzard tolerate some other entity controlling the way their progaming scene is run?
whether the intent is to kill sc1 or not depends on how much money they are asking. if it is high enough to be uncollectible, then obviously they are trying to kill sc1. if it is a sum that still allows ogn etc to do business, then it's something else.
well in your post you jump to the conclusion that blizzard has the rights in the first place, in that case you are correct.
but what most of us are arguing about whether they actually do have those rights. Creating a computer game does not automatically create a huge scene with loads of sponsored teams, televised matches and high level play.
this is where the fight is right now. they haven't won the case so far and claimed the rights to be theirs. so your described situation becomes more like them suing a competitor because it hurts their revenue.
"We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights"
This is the statement that really pisses me off the most. Basically, blah blah blah... we care less about your Brood War leagues that made us who we are than our short term profit through SC2. That's really what it comes down to. You care about A, you also care about B... well, if you're willing to sacrifice A over B, it's pretty clear what you *really* love.
Oh, and I find it very very interesting that while the general korean public consensus(judging from the comments below articles on fomos/playxp) was that blizzard was in their rights to try to sue stations and Kespa, but now that OGN is being sued, its splitting down the middle more.
This is just basically Activision Blizz asking the korean BW scene "What have you done for me lately?" The benefit in sales used to outweigh whatever problems they had with it, but now that's changed. Gratitude's is short-lived indeed.
Now to find out if there's anyway to support SC2 or blizzard without supporting the activision part of it...(while still watching BW of course).
On November 04 2010 23:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: I think Blizzard really wants to protect their rights....they're just being overprotective....
Don't you think it's slightly suspicious that they didn't do this 10 years ago and that all this has happened after SC2 has come out? I personally don't believe it's a coincidence at all.
isn't this about Proleague solely, if they obtained the license to broadcast OSL?
From the way it sounds, this lawsuit, if a win for Blizzard's side, would shut down Proleague, but OSL could continue. Either way MBC would be f'ed in the a.
Also for all the people that are like OMG BLAME ACTIVISION SO EVIL, get a clue people. This is Blizzard's lawsuit in the end. They didn't whisper into Blizzard's ear "hey, want to make more money? Go sue the Korean broadcasting companies." Blizzard knows how to get filthy rich and became profit obsessed on their own (see: WoW).
Well, I'm really surprised by this. I can think of many reasons on why they would sue OGN also, but the one that jumps out is avoiding a legal loop by MBC on the other case. Let's hope it becomes clear as time goes by.
On November 04 2010 22:39 Katsuge wrote: i hate it cos all blizz is talking is about their rights their rights...;/
User was temp banned for this post.
Err, I don't really see why this guy was banned for this post? Just the bad grammar? I would readily admit that the only thing blizzard has done is CTRLV "our rights" all over the place and blow smoke up our asses about them wanting bw/sc2 to run side by side and that they would run their own leagues and shit. Its just absurd.
Anyway, I don't see how the Korean Air OSL can even be shut down. I remember that MONTHS ago OGN agreed to terms with OGN and only MBC couldn't come to an agreement. I suppose this is over OGN broadcasting Proleague without purchasing the rights, but how can they shut down the OSL because of that when they actually have the rights to it?
On November 04 2010 23:29 oneofthem wrote: people need to understand that by "protecting" their rights, it means "extract greatest revenue from" their rights. which may or may not involve killing sc1 and the way kespa does business, which is obviously a no go in a sc2 progaming scene that blizzard has a stake in. kespa sanctions tournaments by controlling the progamers. how can blizzard tolerate some other entity controlling the way their progaming scene is run?
whether the intent is to kill sc1 or not depends on how much money they are asking. if it is high enough to be uncollectible, then obviously they are trying to kill sc1. if it is a sum that still allows ogn etc to do business, then it's something else.
well in your post you jump to the conclusion that blizzard has the rights in the first place, in that case you are correct.
but what most of us are arguing about whether they actually do have those rights. Creating a computer game does not automatically create a huge scene with loads of sponsored teams, televised matches and high level play.
this is where the fight is right now. they haven't won the case so far and claimed the rights to be theirs. so your described situation becomes more like them suing a competitor because it hurts their revenue.
you seem to be implying that an organization like kespa has legitimacy because it exists apart from the effort blizzard put into bw. this is not the case legally speaking.
still, i was not talking about legitimacy at all, just the economic and business logic at work. the legal rights are a tool to be wielded for business ends. blizzard's legal situation did not change from 2000 to today, what has changed is that they have a stake in progaming now that they've devised a way to extract revenue from it.
now, kespa is not exactly your community cooperative sc league. they are quite aggressive in using the power of licensing as well, to the extent of coercing players. i don't have a horse in this race as far as the companies are concerned, i'm just not sure how the players and fans would be treated in the process.
I hope KeSPA and the broadcasters stand shoulder-to-shoulder and crush Blizzard. I like how Blizz didn't sue them all at once, which would've showed their hand and made it too obvious they intend to kill BW. They're trying to pick them apart one by one. I don't think it'll work.
On November 05 2010 00:02 konadora wrote: - both with dollar signs in their eyes... kespa helped esports to grow through extortion and now blizzard's extorting money back lol
Pretty much this. I'm still leaning more towards KeSPA though. If KeSPA loses and the leagues go down, I'm worried that a lot of the players will get screwed. There's no league structure for SC2 and no guaranteed salaries. To think if none of this legal nasty stuff happened, KeSPA might actually be supporting SC2 in some way...
On November 05 2010 00:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Anyway, I don't see how the Korean Air OSL can even be shut down. I remember that MONTHS ago OGN agreed to terms with OGN and only MBC couldn't come to an agreement. I suppose this is over OGN broadcasting Proleague without purchasing the rights, but how can they shut down the OSL because of that when they actually have the rights to it?
They bought the rights to "Korean Air OSL 2", not "2010 Bacchus OSL". Every tournament you run requires you to buy another license. It's just coincidence that since the GSL started, they couldn't come to another agreement!
On November 04 2010 23:29 oneofthem wrote: people need to understand that by "protecting" their rights, it means "extract greatest revenue from" their rights. which may or may not involve killing sc1 and the way kespa does business, which is obviously a no go in a sc2 progaming scene that blizzard has a stake in. kespa sanctions tournaments by controlling the progamers. how can blizzard tolerate some other entity controlling the way their progaming scene is run?
whether the intent is to kill sc1 or not depends on how much money they are asking. if it is high enough to be uncollectible, then obviously they are trying to kill sc1. if it is a sum that still allows ogn etc to do business, then it's something else.
well in your post you jump to the conclusion that blizzard has the rights in the first place, in that case you are correct.
but what most of us are arguing about whether they actually do have those rights. Creating a computer game does not automatically create a huge scene with loads of sponsored teams, televised matches and high level play.
this is where the fight is right now. they haven't won the case so far and claimed the rights to be theirs. so your described situation becomes more like them suing a competitor because it hurts their revenue.
you seem to be implying that an organization like kespa has legitimacy because it exists apart from the effort blizzard put into bw. this is not the case legally speaking.
still, i was not talking about legitimacy at all, just the economic and business logic at work. the legal rights are a tool to be wielded for business ends. blizzard's legal situation did not change from 2000 to today, what has changed is that they have a stake in progaming now that they've devised a way to extract revenue from it.
now, kespa is not exactly your community cooperative sc league. they are quite aggressive in using the power of licensing as well, to the extent of coercing players. i don't have a horse in this race as far as the companies are concerned, i'm just not sure how the players and fans would be treated in the process.
All I was saying is that I am not fully convinced that by creating a video game you automatically own everything that is created by it. I don't think blizzard gets much credit for all the fangirls going crazy and shouting when Flash used a d-matrixed dropship as an elevator to load Jaedongs base full with MnM and take out his tech. Or do you think all the fans turned up to that even because how awesomely Blizzard had designed all those sprites. You see what I mean? What OGN/MBC/KeSPA are selling is not quite what Blizzard had produced.
Sure Blizzard deserves a part of the cake, but from what I recall their requests in the negotiations wasn't a piece of the cake, it was the whole cake and also the knife and all the plates to serve it. In my view this is unreasonable from them and they are waaay in the wrong here.
I agree that KeSPA is a nasty organization, but KeSPA is a representative organization of all the pro teams involved. If KeSPA loses, the core of esports is gone and I am sure as hell Blizzard will not replace it. What happens from then is rather unpredictable but certainly not for good.
Why is it every single one of these threads consists of the same uninformed knee jerk reactionary titwank, then 20 pages of people trying to explain that neither sides actions can be equated to the pre-school esque logic that said knee jerk titwank attempts to correlate it to, while being rebuked by said reactionary titwankees?
I mean how were you all not expecting this one, they said they would if OGN continued unabated, it's clearly going to come under the same IP rights situation, in actuality it would be far more absurd if they didn't do this (provided there wasn't a change by OGN to fit to the previous negotiation's stipulations) as it would mean that Blizzard was unfairly targeting one corporation and would sink their entire protection of IP rights case due to the selectivism of it. Oh and i'm really not going to reply to anyone over this stuff as it just gives me headaches trying to deal with the starcraft equivalent of creationists and yes I realise how remarkably arrogant and superior that sounds.
edit: I don't really know how to tone this down JWD, i'm not making personal attacks on people but I guess it's somewhat inflammatory, it's just very much like arguing with a dining room table, to quote Barney Frank.
On November 05 2010 00:21 leakingpear wrote: Why is it every single one of these threads consists of the same uninformed knee jerk reactionary titwank, then 20 pages of people trying to explain that neither sides actions can be equated to the pre-school esque logic that said knee jerk titwank attempts to correlate it to, while being rebuked by said reactionary titwankees?
I mean how were you all not expecting this one, they said they would if OGN continued unabated, it's clearly going to come under the same IP rights situation, in actuality it would be far more absurd if they didn't do this (provided there wasn't a change by OGN to fit to the previous negotiation's stipulations) as it would mean that Blizzard was unfairly targeting one corporation and would sink their entire protection of IP rights case due to the selectivism of it. Oh and i'm really not going to reply to anyone over this stuff as it just gives me headaches trying to deal with the starcraft equivalent of creationists and yes I realise how remarkably arrogant and superior that sounds.
Well don't let the door hit you on your way out of the thread.
On November 05 2010 00:21 leakingpear wrote: Why is it every single one of these threads consists of the same uninformed knee jerk reactionary titwank, then 20 pages of people trying to explain that neither sides actions can be equated to the pre-school esque logic that said knee jerk titwank attempts to correlate it to, while being rebuked by said reactionary titwankees?
I mean how were you all not expecting this one, they said they would if OGN continued unabated, it's clearly going to come under the same IP rights situation, in actuality it would be far more absurd if they didn't do this (provided there wasn't a change by OGN to fit to the previous negotiation's stipulations) as it would mean that Blizzard was unfairly targeting one corporation and would sink their entire protection of IP rights case due to the selectivism of it. Oh and i'm really not going to reply to anyone over this stuff as it just gives me headaches trying to deal with the starcraft equivalent of creationists and yes I realise how remarkably arrogant and superior that sounds.
Well don't let the door hit you on your way out of the thread.
I implore you or anyone to look at my post history in these threads and then not understand where i'm coming from.
"- stop saying "illegal, illegal", if they fans want it, they have all the rights to broadcast!"
This is ridiculous.
No you are ridiculous. Basically ALL the games you play at the moment does NOT belong to you. It is still the game companies's properties. Would you really want that? Stop posting stuff that you have no clue about.
On November 04 2010 23:29 oneofthem wrote: people need to understand that by "protecting" their rights, it means "extract greatest revenue from" their rights. which may or may not involve killing sc1 and the way kespa does business, which is obviously a no go in a sc2 progaming scene that blizzard has a stake in. kespa sanctions tournaments by controlling the progamers. how can blizzard tolerate some other entity controlling the way their progaming scene is run?
whether the intent is to kill sc1 or not depends on how much money they are asking. if it is high enough to be uncollectible, then obviously they are trying to kill sc1. if it is a sum that still allows ogn etc to do business, then it's something else.
well in your post you jump to the conclusion that blizzard has the rights in the first place, in that case you are correct.
but what most of us are arguing about whether they actually do have those rights. Creating a computer game does not automatically create a huge scene with loads of sponsored teams, televised matches and high level play.
this is where the fight is right now. they haven't won the case so far and claimed the rights to be theirs. so your described situation becomes more like them suing a competitor because it hurts their revenue.
you seem to be implying that an organization like kespa has legitimacy because it exists apart from the effort blizzard put into bw. this is not the case legally speaking.
still, i was not talking about legitimacy at all, just the economic and business logic at work. the legal rights are a tool to be wielded for business ends. blizzard's legal situation did not change from 2000 to today, what has changed is that they have a stake in progaming now that they've devised a way to extract revenue from it.
now, kespa is not exactly your community cooperative sc league. they are quite aggressive in using the power of licensing as well, to the extent of coercing players. i don't have a horse in this race as far as the companies are concerned, i'm just not sure how the players and fans would be treated in the process.
All I was saying is that I am not fully convinced that by creating a video game you automatically own everything that is created by it. I don't think blizzard gets much credit for all the fangirls going crazy and shouting when Flash used a d-matrixed dropship as an elevator to load Jaedongs base full with MnM and take out his tech. Or do you think all the fans turned up to that even because how awesomely Blizzard had designed all those sprites. You see what I mean? What OGN/MBC/KeSPA are selling is not quite what Blizzard had produced.
Sure Blizzard deserves a part of the cake, but from what I recall their requests in the negotiations wasn't a piece of the cake, it was the whole cake and also the knife and all the plates to serve it. In my view this is unreasonable from them and they are waaay in the wrong here.
I agree that KeSPA is a nasty organization, but KeSPA is a representative organization of all the pro teams involved. If KeSPA loses, the core of esports is gone and I am sure as hell Blizzard will not replace it. What happens from then is rather unpredictable but certainly not for good.
If you create something you are the IP holder. It's your property and is handled like any other property as well. And in case Blizzards wants the whole cake or just a part of it does not change anything. It's their right. StarCraft was successively selling even b4 the whole esports thing started - Kespa did not make the game successful - they just milked it to make good money for their own without respecting Blizzards rights. Legally this case is clear.
On November 05 2010 00:18 C.W. wrote: And Blizzard sure does the right thing - it's their damn property. €dit:
"- stop saying "illegal, illegal", if they fans want it, they have all the rights to broadcast!"
This is ridiculous.
No you are ridiculous. Basically ALL the games you play at the moment does NOT belong to you. It is still the game companies's properties. Would you really want that? Stop posting stuff that you have no clue about.
You're a freaking retard. Buying a game does not give you the IP rights to it. Did you actually read any of the freaking agreements you agreed to? You just pay for that you are allowed to play the game. And that is sure ok with me. Idiot.
On November 05 2010 00:18 C.W. wrote: And Blizzard sure does the right thing - it's their damn property. €dit:
"- stop saying "illegal, illegal", if they fans want it, they have all the rights to broadcast!"
This is ridiculous.
No you are ridiculous. Basically ALL the games you play at the moment does NOT belong to you. It is still the game companies's properties. Would you really want that? Stop posting stuff that you have no clue about.
how is that relevant? me enjoying a company's game in the privacy of my home and using the game as a foundation to collect revenue are two completely different things.
there is a shocking amount of Blizzard blaming going on here, and while I agree that it sucks and neither party is completely innocent, I know who I would be madder at.
On November 04 2010 23:29 oneofthem wrote: people need to understand that by "protecting" their rights, it means "extract greatest revenue from" their rights. which may or may not involve killing sc1 and the way kespa does business, which is obviously a no go in a sc2 progaming scene that blizzard has a stake in. kespa sanctions tournaments by controlling the progamers. how can blizzard tolerate some other entity controlling the way their progaming scene is run?
whether the intent is to kill sc1 or not depends on how much money they are asking. if it is high enough to be uncollectible, then obviously they are trying to kill sc1. if it is a sum that still allows ogn etc to do business, then it's something else.
well in your post you jump to the conclusion that blizzard has the rights in the first place, in that case you are correct.
but what most of us are arguing about whether they actually do have those rights. Creating a computer game does not automatically create a huge scene with loads of sponsored teams, televised matches and high level play.
this is where the fight is right now. they haven't won the case so far and claimed the rights to be theirs. so your described situation becomes more like them suing a competitor because it hurts their revenue.
you seem to be implying that an organization like kespa has legitimacy because it exists apart from the effort blizzard put into bw. this is not the case legally speaking.
still, i was not talking about legitimacy at all, just the economic and business logic at work. the legal rights are a tool to be wielded for business ends. blizzard's legal situation did not change from 2000 to today, what has changed is that they have a stake in progaming now that they've devised a way to extract revenue from it.
now, kespa is not exactly your community cooperative sc league. they are quite aggressive in using the power of licensing as well, to the extent of coercing players. i don't have a horse in this race as far as the companies are concerned, i'm just not sure how the players and fans would be treated in the process.
All I was saying is that I am not fully convinced that by creating a video game you automatically own everything that is created by it. I don't think blizzard gets much credit for all the fangirls going crazy and shouting when Flash used a d-matrixed dropship as an elevator to load Jaedongs base full with MnM and take out his tech. Or do you think all the fans turned up to that even because how awesomely Blizzard had designed all those sprites. You see what I mean? What OGN/MBC/KeSPA are selling is not quite what Blizzard had produced.
Sure Blizzard deserves a part of the cake, but from what I recall their requests in the negotiations wasn't a piece of the cake, it was the whole cake and also the knife and all the plates to serve it. In my view this is unreasonable from them and they are waaay in the wrong here.
I agree that KeSPA is a nasty organization, but KeSPA is a representative organization of all the pro teams involved. If KeSPA loses, the core of esports is gone and I am sure as hell Blizzard will not replace it. What happens from then is rather unpredictable but certainly not for good.
If you create something you are the IP holder. It's your property and is handled like any other property as well. And in case Blizzards wants the whole cake or just a part of it does not change anything. It's their right. StarCraft was successively selling even b4 the whole esports thing started - Kespa did not make the game successful - they just milked it to make good money for their own without respecting Blizzards rights. Legally this case is clear.
Without Kespa keeping the hype up for the game, people will NEVER buy SC2. Kespa DID make the game successful, without it, there will definitely be another organization at the same situation now with Blizzard. Kespa did not try to resell the game but only try to broadcast it and OH without Kespa, Koreans won't be as involved in this game and wouldn't buy more than half of sales that BW did. And according to them, they didn't make as much profit as you think, they are barely breaking it even with the money they gained.
On November 05 2010 00:18 C.W. wrote: And Blizzard sure does the right thing - it's their damn property. €dit:
"- stop saying "illegal, illegal", if they fans want it, they have all the rights to broadcast!"
This is ridiculous.
No you are ridiculous. Basically ALL the games you play at the moment does NOT belong to you. It is still the game companies's properties. Would you really want that? Stop posting stuff that you have no clue about.
Hate to break it to you bro but that's actually the case and has been since the birth of the games industry. You buy a license to play a game and the physical media upon which it's on but you don't own the game itself. The only reason it's becoming more of a focal point issue is because of an amalgamation of factors including easy of piracy, massive growth of the industry and even stuff like eSports where live competitions with licensing have been around way longer than Starcraft (for reference see the great and fantastic film The Wizard!). There's probably ways around it but not in the current legal system, otherwise it becomes a huge issue to prevent people from commercially pirating your games (as a developer/publisher) because you can't prove ownership and/or copyright.
On November 04 2010 23:29 oneofthem wrote: people need to understand that by "protecting" their rights, it means "extract greatest revenue from" their rights. which may or may not involve killing sc1 and the way kespa does business, which is obviously a no go in a sc2 progaming scene that blizzard has a stake in. kespa sanctions tournaments by controlling the progamers. how can blizzard tolerate some other entity controlling the way their progaming scene is run?
whether the intent is to kill sc1 or not depends on how much money they are asking. if it is high enough to be uncollectible, then obviously they are trying to kill sc1. if it is a sum that still allows ogn etc to do business, then it's something else.
well in your post you jump to the conclusion that blizzard has the rights in the first place, in that case you are correct.
but what most of us are arguing about whether they actually do have those rights. Creating a computer game does not automatically create a huge scene with loads of sponsored teams, televised matches and high level play.
this is where the fight is right now. they haven't won the case so far and claimed the rights to be theirs. so your described situation becomes more like them suing a competitor because it hurts their revenue.
you seem to be implying that an organization like kespa has legitimacy because it exists apart from the effort blizzard put into bw. this is not the case legally speaking.
still, i was not talking about legitimacy at all, just the economic and business logic at work. the legal rights are a tool to be wielded for business ends. blizzard's legal situation did not change from 2000 to today, what has changed is that they have a stake in progaming now that they've devised a way to extract revenue from it.
now, kespa is not exactly your community cooperative sc league. they are quite aggressive in using the power of licensing as well, to the extent of coercing players. i don't have a horse in this race as far as the companies are concerned, i'm just not sure how the players and fans would be treated in the process.
All I was saying is that I am not fully convinced that by creating a video game you automatically own everything that is created by it. I don't think blizzard gets much credit for all the fangirls going crazy and shouting when Flash used a d-matrixed dropship as an elevator to load Jaedongs base full with MnM and take out his tech. Or do you think all the fans turned up to that even because how awesomely Blizzard had designed all those sprites. You see what I mean? What OGN/MBC/KeSPA are selling is not quite what Blizzard had produced.
Sure Blizzard deserves a part of the cake, but from what I recall their requests in the negotiations wasn't a piece of the cake, it was the whole cake and also the knife and all the plates to serve it. In my view this is unreasonable from them and they are waaay in the wrong here.
I agree that KeSPA is a nasty organization, but KeSPA is a representative organization of all the pro teams involved. If KeSPA loses, the core of esports is gone and I am sure as hell Blizzard will not replace it. What happens from then is rather unpredictable but certainly not for good.
If you create something you are the IP holder. It's your property and is handled like any other property as well. And in case Blizzards wants the whole cake or just a part of it does not change anything. It's their right. StarCraft was successively selling even b4 the whole esports thing started - Kespa did not make the game successful - they just milked it to make good money for their own without respecting Blizzards rights. Legally this case is clear.
Without Kespa keeping the hype up for the game, people will NEVER buy SC2. Kespa DID make the game successful, without it, there will definitely be another organization at the same situation now with Blizzard. Kespa did not try to resell the game but only try to broadcast it and OH without Kespa, Koreans won't be as involved in this game and wouldn't buy more than half of sales that BW did. And according to them, they didn't make as much profit as you think, they are barely breaking it even with the money they gained.
? Didn't SC2 sell better in NA/EU than Korea and those countries didn't have a Kespa?
edit: oh i see what you're saying. I don't think we have to rely on Kespa for sc2 to succeed in korea.
On November 05 2010 00:21 leakingpear wrote: Why is it every single one of these threads consists of the same uninformed knee jerk reactionary titwank, then 20 pages of people trying to explain that neither sides actions can be equated to the pre-school esque logic that said knee jerk titwank attempts to correlate it to, while being rebuked by said reactionary titwankees? Oh and i'm really not going to reply to anyone over this stuff as it just gives me headaches trying to deal with the starcraft equivalent of creationists and yes I realise how remarkably arrogant and superior that sounds.
what the hell didn't OGN have successful negotiations with GOM for OSL Korean Air season 2? MBC I can understand, but OGN.. man Blizzard what the hell.. do they really want their support to tank in korea?
On November 05 2010 00:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Anyway, I don't see how the Korean Air OSL can even be shut down. I remember that MONTHS ago OGN agreed to terms with OGN and only MBC couldn't come to an agreement. I suppose this is over OGN broadcasting Proleague without purchasing the rights, but how can they shut down the OSL because of that when they actually have the rights to it?
They bought the rights to "Korean Air OSL 2", not "2010 Bacchus OSL". Every tournament you run requires you to buy another license. It's just coincidence that since the GSL started, they couldn't come to another agreement!
thanks a lot, I wasn't aware they announced another future OSL. I wonder why they would even do this, but the Korean Air OSL 2 can't be shut down because of this, correct?
On November 05 2010 00:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Anyway, I don't see how the Korean Air OSL can even be shut down. I remember that MONTHS ago OGN agreed to terms with OGN and only MBC couldn't come to an agreement. I suppose this is over OGN broadcasting Proleague without purchasing the rights, but how can they shut down the OSL because of that when they actually have the rights to it?
They bought the rights to "Korean Air OSL 2", not "2010 Bacchus OSL". Every tournament you run requires you to buy another license. It's just coincidence that since the GSL started, they couldn't come to another agreement!
thanks a lot, I wasn't aware they announced another future OSL. I wonder why they would even do this, but the Korean Air OSL 2 can't be shut down because of this, correct?
Korean Air OSL 2 was last season. The current ongoing one is Bacchus OSL.
I'm really disappointed that OGN announced they would continue broadcasting BW when they knew Blizzard would take legal action. I feel like OGN really shot themselves in the foot this time and it may be the end of competitive BW.
Alternatively Gretech could take up the broadcasting of the SPL and individual leagues and BW could be continued in that way.
On November 04 2010 23:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: I think Blizzard really wants to protect their rights....they're just being overprotective....
Don't you think it's slightly suspicious that they didn't do this 10 years ago and that all this has happened after SC2 has come out? I personally don't believe it's a coincidence at all.
it's not strange, because OGN and MBC were not charged with fees by KeSPA to air the tournatments until 2007 and that is exactly the point where Blizzard started to take action. And that's nothing abnormal every other company would do the same. You are allowed to share your stuff with others but when you generate a profit off it it's not legal anymore without the proper distribution rights.
It's basically the same with computer games. We all bought SC BW but that doesnt mean you own it. You made a contract with Blizzard to use their Software in a NONprofitable way. You can read that in every EULA in every game you try to install on your computer.
So... Blizzard said "pay us money to broadcast OSL", and they did. And now they say "no screw you, we're suing you for broadcasting starcraft BW because we want MORE money".
On November 04 2010 23:29 oneofthem wrote: people need to understand that by "protecting" their rights, it means "extract greatest revenue from" their rights. which may or may not involve killing sc1 and the way kespa does business, which is obviously a no go in a sc2 progaming scene that blizzard has a stake in. kespa sanctions tournaments by controlling the progamers. how can blizzard tolerate some other entity controlling the way their progaming scene is run?
whether the intent is to kill sc1 or not depends on how much money they are asking. if it is high enough to be uncollectible, then obviously they are trying to kill sc1. if it is a sum that still allows ogn etc to do business, then it's something else.
well in your post you jump to the conclusion that blizzard has the rights in the first place, in that case you are correct.
but what most of us are arguing about whether they actually do have those rights. Creating a computer game does not automatically create a huge scene with loads of sponsored teams, televised matches and high level play.
this is where the fight is right now. they haven't won the case so far and claimed the rights to be theirs. so your described situation becomes more like them suing a competitor because it hurts their revenue.
you seem to be implying that an organization like kespa has legitimacy because it exists apart from the effort blizzard put into bw. this is not the case legally speaking.
still, i was not talking about legitimacy at all, just the economic and business logic at work. the legal rights are a tool to be wielded for business ends. blizzard's legal situation did not change from 2000 to today, what has changed is that they have a stake in progaming now that they've devised a way to extract revenue from it.
now, kespa is not exactly your community cooperative sc league. they are quite aggressive in using the power of licensing as well, to the extent of coercing players. i don't have a horse in this race as far as the companies are concerned, i'm just not sure how the players and fans would be treated in the process.
All I was saying is that I am not fully convinced that by creating a video game you automatically own everything that is created by it. I don't think blizzard gets much credit for all the fangirls going crazy and shouting when Flash used a d-matrixed dropship as an elevator to load Jaedongs base full with MnM and take out his tech. Or do you think all the fans turned up to that even because how awesomely Blizzard had designed all those sprites. You see what I mean? What OGN/MBC/KeSPA are selling is not quite what Blizzard had produced.
Sure Blizzard deserves a part of the cake, but from what I recall their requests in the negotiations wasn't a piece of the cake, it was the whole cake and also the knife and all the plates to serve it. In my view this is unreasonable from them and they are waaay in the wrong here.
I agree that KeSPA is a nasty organization, but KeSPA is a representative organization of all the pro teams involved. If KeSPA loses, the core of esports is gone and I am sure as hell Blizzard will not replace it. What happens from then is rather unpredictable but certainly not for good.
If you create something you are the IP holder. It's your property and is handled like any other property as well. And in case Blizzards wants the whole cake or just a part of it does not change anything. It's their right. StarCraft was successively selling even b4 the whole esports thing started - Kespa did not make the game successful - they just milked it to make good money for their own without respecting Blizzards rights. Legally this case is clear.
Well if you would have cared to read my post and think about it, you would realize that I am arguing that the companies being sued do not simply re-sell the product Blizzard created but they create something more around it.
Blizzard owns the game sure. But they have no rights to claim the teams, the broadcasting infrastructure and the amount of hours progamers practice to display great games, as theirs.
It's a sad deadlock, where neither of the sides are eligible for everything but neither will settle for less.
And mind your posting if you want to stick around here don't start and end your posts with personal insults especially in cases where it's totally unwarranted.
On November 05 2010 01:03 OreoBoi wrote: So... Blizzard said "pay us money to broadcast OSL", and they did. And now they say "no screw you, we're suing you for broadcasting starcraft BW because we want MORE money".
What? You have to pay a licensing fee for every tournament. They paid one for the Korean Air league, but not for the current Bacchus league, so Blizzard is suing them.
On November 05 2010 00:18 C.W. wrote: And Blizzard sure does the right thing - it's their damn property. €dit:
"- stop saying "illegal, illegal", if they fans want it, they have all the rights to broadcast!"
This is ridiculous.
No you are ridiculous. Basically ALL the games you play at the moment does NOT belong to you. It is still the game companies's properties. Would you really want that? Stop posting stuff that you have no clue about.
You're a freaking retard. Buying a game does not give you the IP rights to it. Did you actually read any of the freaking agreements you agreed to? You just pay for that you are allowed to play the game. And that is sure ok with me. Idiot.
User was warned for this post
a) as if anyone reads the agreements... im sure almost no one actually reads it...
b) i think in our world it is quite normal that when you buy something you actually own it and you can do whatever you want with it (as long as you dont break any law using it (killing someone or w/e)... if i buy a can of coke i don't have to pay coca cola to show it on tv, if i buy a nike football i don't have to pay nike to show a game on tv where that ball was used... (yea might be a bad comparison blabla etc, im sure there's also counter arguments, i dont care, don't wanna start that discussion again)
I'm happy it's ok with you, but respect other people's opinion too? Especially when you make it seem like they are saying something delusional and their opinion isn't that strange at all...
You start by saying he's a freaking retard, then you end it with a totally unnessecary "Idiot", imo you're lucky not to be banned...
I don't get how people can be disgusted at Blizzard... Didn't try drag out long enough the inevitable lawsuits for acquiring illegal Broadcasting? AFAIK Blizzard was fine with it until KeSPA started charging broadcast rights and OGN/MBC agreed to pay... Even though everyone knows its illegal to...
b) i think in our world it is quite normal that when you buy something you actually own it and you can do whatever you want with it (as long as you dont break any law using it (killing someone or w/e)... if i buy a can of coke i don't have to pay coca cola to show it on tv, if i buy a nike football i don't have to pay nike to show a game on tv where that ball was used... (yea might be a bad comparison blabla etc, im sure there's also counter arguments, i dont care, don't wanna start that discussion again)
that's where you got it wrong. sticking to your example it would be liek this.
You buy a bottle of coke ( fine ) you show it on TV ( fine )
and now why Coke would sue you
you buy the bottle you resell the bottle
the process of reselling something when you dont own the rights to do so is why Blizazrd started the sueing
b) i think in our world it is quite normal that when you buy something you actually own it and you can do whatever you want with it (as long as you dont break any law using it (killing someone or w/e)... if i buy a can of coke i don't have to pay coca cola to show it on tv, if i buy a nike football i don't have to pay nike to show a game on tv where that ball was used... (yea might be a bad comparison blabla etc, im sure there's also counter arguments, i dont care, don't wanna start that discussion again)
that's where you got it wrong. sticking to your example it would be liek this.
You buy a bottle of coke ( fine ) you show it on TV ( fine )
and now why Coke would sue you
you buy the bottle you resell the bottle
the process of reselling something when you dont own the rights to do so is why Blizazrd started the sueing
I think it's like buying coke and calling it Pepsi would be better example.
On November 05 2010 01:22 Borknagarush wrote: Well im waiting when one team monopolizes GSL and game will stop evolving. Luckily there will be WC4 in 2012.
There wouldn't be a personal affront if he actually had a point or didn't start with sentence with "youre ridiculous". Also knowing nowadays that you just get to own the copy of a programe that you paid for,no more - no less, should be common. The legal world works thru contracts. You can design it after your interests and needs. Not much room for big opinions here.
Also the intolerance began when he started the personal affront due to the expression of my opinion in my post - why should I tolerate his? Quid pro Quo.
To be honest I don't think you're allowed to even show Coke on TV without their explicit permission. There's a reason why Mythbusters covers the label on every household item they use.
My question is; what has the reaction from TOP Broodwar players been? The legal aspects are clearly above and beyond them, but I wonder if any have made it known that they will be changing games soon if everything falls through.
On November 05 2010 01:29 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: To be honest I don't think you're allowed to even show Coke on TV without their explicit permission. There's a reason why Mythbusters covers the label on every household item they use.
My question is; what has the reaction from TOP Broodwar players been? The legal aspects are clearly above and beyond them, but I wonder if any have made it known that they will be changing games soon if everything falls through.
you're right, they're not that's why in a lot of movies, you'll see a general label of "Soda" or "Chips" instead of an actual brand
On November 05 2010 01:29 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: To be honest I don't think you're allowed to even show Coke on TV without their explicit permission. There's a reason why Mythbusters covers the label on every household item they use.
My question is; what has the reaction from TOP Broodwar players been? The legal aspects are clearly above and beyond them, but I wonder if any have made it known that they will be changing games soon if everything falls through.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you show a brand on TV/movie like a Toyota car, the company that has their product shown has to pay YOU in some way, not the other way around. I think it has to do with free advertisement for that company.
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league on October 22, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL and MSL from KeSPA. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
Now wait a second. 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs'... No love for MBCGame? This doesn't seem very good for MBC, because Blizzard doesn't seem to like them one bit.
Also, it seems like KeSPA just wanted to get the negotiations sped up by showing their schedules. From what it seems, the arguments keep going around in circles, no progress at all. Now I understand Blizz's standpoint, but KeSPA has to keep these leagues running for the teams and the players.
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league on October 22, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL and MSL from KeSPA. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
Now wait a second. 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs'... No love for MBCGame? This doesn't seem very good for MBC, because Blizzard doesn't seem to like them one bit.
arent both gretech/ogn owned by CJ? which could have led to that declaration...
On November 05 2010 01:29 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: To be honest I don't think you're allowed to even show Coke on TV without their explicit permission. There's a reason why Mythbusters covers the label on every household item they use.
My question is; what has the reaction from TOP Broodwar players been? The legal aspects are clearly above and beyond them, but I wonder if any have made it known that they will be changing games soon if everything falls through.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you show a brand on TV/movie like a Toyota car, the company that has their product shown has to pay YOU in some way, not the other way around. I think it has to do with free advertisement for that company.
You're thinking of product placement. Companies will pay to have their product featured in a show, movie, etc. But "free advertising" isn't a legal defense which is why a lot of logos in music videos have heavy blur applied to them.
On November 05 2010 01:29 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: To be honest I don't think you're allowed to even show Coke on TV without their explicit permission. There's a reason why Mythbusters covers the label on every household item they use.
My question is; what has the reaction from TOP Broodwar players been? The legal aspects are clearly above and beyond them, but I wonder if any have made it known that they will be changing games soon if everything falls through.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you show a brand on TV/movie like a Toyota car, the company that has their product shown has to pay YOU in some way, not the other way around. I think it has to do with free advertisement for that company.
This is pretty much off topic but...
Let us bring it back to the video game world. Gran Turismo is/was the echelon of racing games. They needed to still pay for the licensing fee's to car companies to use their cars in the game. GT usually never had the cars get damaged in the earlier games (never played anything passed 2) this was part of their deal with the companies to license the cars to be used in the games. This is the same with sports games, you need to get the rights to use the teams from the teams or organisation itself thus FIFA having most of the teams and PES having a select few.
Stop talking about reselling. Nothing is being resold here. What they sell is a high level competitive play which if I am not mistaken does not come packed together with the game when you buy it. So it's not Blizzard's property.
On November 05 2010 01:52 HeaDStrong wrote: Stop talking about reselling. Nothing is being resold here. What they sell is a high level competitive play which if I am not mistaken does not come packed together with the game when you buy it. So it's not Blizzard's property.
The game itself is Blizzards property
All the sound, unit ideas, graphics, engine etc. is made by Blizzard.
That's why it's so hard for some people to get google partnership as gamers on youtube, because games don't actually belong to them and they can't make money off it despite doing commentary etc...
On November 05 2010 01:52 HeaDStrong wrote: Stop talking about reselling. Nothing is being resold here. What they sell is a high level competitive play which if I am not mistaken does not come packed together with the game when you buy it. So it's not Blizzard's property.
The game itself is Blizzards property
All the sound, unit ideas, graphics, engine etc. is made by Blizzard.
But the strategies, maps, execution, replays are really not blizzard's. The progamers and the progaming organization has a share of that also.
On November 05 2010 01:52 HeaDStrong wrote: Stop talking about reselling. Nothing is being resold here. What they sell is a high level competitive play which if I am not mistaken does not come packed together with the game when you buy it. So it's not Blizzard's property.
The game itself is Blizzards property
All the sound, unit ideas, graphics, engine etc. is made by Blizzard.
But the strategies, maps, execution, replays are really not blizzard's. The progamers and the progaming organization has a share of that also.
Blizzard is just going around suing everyone now.
Except that all the material you produce using the game engine is property of Blizzard, since you agreed to forfeit your rights in the term of use. I think.
I haven't been following the Blizzard vs Kespa/OGN debate too closely, mostly because I never watched the Korean proscene to begin with, so I could care less what happens now, but from a legal standpoint, does Blizzard not have every right to do this? I mean, pushing aside whether or not it screws over the fans, and whether or not Blizzard benefited from Kespa making the game so popular, the fact is that Blizzard does own the game, and you cannot broadcast it without their consent no? Or is that the debate going on right now?
On November 05 2010 01:52 HeaDStrong wrote: Stop talking about reselling. Nothing is being resold here. What they sell is a high level competitive play which if I am not mistaken does not come packed together with the game when you buy it. So it's not Blizzard's property.
The game itself is Blizzards property
All the sound, unit ideas, graphics, engine etc. is made by Blizzard.
But the strategies, maps, execution, replays are really not blizzard's. The progamers and the progaming organization has a share of that also.
Blizzard is just going around suing everyone now.
Except that all the material you produce using the game engine is property of Blizzard, since you agreed to forfeit your rights in the term of use. I think.
Only if this was clearly said in the licence agreement. If not, they can only block using this contain, they actually cannot use it without author's permition. I think.
These kind of threads are useless, it only starts another flaming war with everyone getting banned. Can't wait for Blizzard to get schooled by Koreans! Korea Fighting!
On November 04 2010 22:33 ichimarugin680 wrote: Copyright is meant for this. The negotiation failed next stop court. Its a legal move even tho I love brood war, can't help but think blizzard has all the rights to do this against illegal tourneys
I gotta agree with this. But it still sucks ass.
But if i remember right, Blizzard threatened to shut down the whole game if they won't follow the 'rules'. So it really doesn't matter if they are in Korean court and if Blizzard loses this because of it.
So, did i understand the shutting down right? Can they actually shut down the game/scene somehow even if they lose?
doubt it. get games + lan = blizz can't do anything
i hate blizzard they have been going downhill for a while :3
God i hope they win and stop those poachers and idiots in kespa!
Blizz loves money, nothing around that... but the main issue here is: they are making money by using game blizz made, without paying the licence to do so! blizz has never went after someone who used their stuff without making money (icefrog for example made it sure that people dont send him donations for dota, cause he is not allowed to make money off of dota)
they are not suing progamers and teams who only do what they agreed to when the game is bought: playing it!! they are suing people who get paid for the rights to broadcast it even tho those rights are not their to sell, and those who get sponsor money by broadcasting when they are not allowed to!
On November 05 2010 02:30 genai wrote: God i hope they win and stop those poachers and idiots in kespa!
Blizz loves money, nothing around that... but the main issue here is: they are making money by using game blizz made, without paying the licence to do so! blizz has never went after someone who used their stuff without making money (icefrog for example made it sure that people dont send him donations for dota, cause he is not allowed to make money off of dota)
they are not suing progamers and teams who only do what they agreed to when the game is bought: playing it!! they are suing people who get paid for the rights to broadcast it even tho those rights are not their to sell, and those who get sponsor money by broadcasting when they are not allowed to!
(and i like watching bw)
I don't know what world you live in, but if these "poachers" in Kespa were to be stopped, our progamers and teams would cease to exist.
On November 05 2010 02:30 genai wrote: God i hope they win and stop those poachers and idiots in kespa!
Blizz loves money, nothing around that... but the main issue here is: they are making money by using game blizz made, without paying the licence to do so! blizz has never went after someone who used their stuff without making money (icefrog for example made it sure that people dont send him donations for dota, cause he is not allowed to make money off of dota)
they are not suing progamers and teams who only do what they agreed to when the game is bought: playing it!! they are suing people who get paid for the rights to broadcast it even tho those rights are not their to sell, and those who get sponsor money by broadcasting when they are not allowed to!
(and i like watching bw)
I think you can accept donations. For example, Carbonite, the makers of a quest-mapping add-on you can use for WOW cannot straight up ask for a fee to use their content, because it depends on, and makes use of WOW, a license they don't have. However they do freely ask for donations all the time, and it's kind of like their indirect way of being paid - even though you can get it for free.
On November 05 2010 01:52 HeaDStrong wrote: Stop talking about reselling. Nothing is being resold here. What they sell is a high level competitive play which if I am not mistaken does not come packed together with the game when you buy it. So it's not Blizzard's property.
The game itself is Blizzards property
All the sound, unit ideas, graphics, engine etc. is made by Blizzard.
But the strategies, maps, execution, replays are really not blizzard's. The progamers and the progaming organization has a share of that also.
Blizzard is just going around suing everyone now.
How about if I took your bread and butter, made sandwich and told you it was mine sandwich because of the work I put into making it.
edit: another great example was said post before me: If a guy uses WoW engine to make add for WoW he is not allowed to sell it or ask donations WITHIN game. Does that make Blizzard greedy bastards? I think not because the guy used tools provided by Blizzard and uses popularity of WoW to make his addon popular.
Hopefully I make sense, my English isn't exactly great
On November 05 2010 02:17 hitthat wrote: Only if this was clearly said in the licence agreement. If not, they can only block using this contain, they actually cannot use it without author's permition. I think.
Not 100% sure, but I think BW eula says you can't make money from the game.
On November 05 2010 02:14 Salv wrote: I haven't been following the Blizzard vs Kespa/OGN debate too closely, mostly because I never watched the Korean proscene to begin with, so I could care less what happens now, but from a legal standpoint, does Blizzard not have every right to do this? I mean, pushing aside whether or not it screws over the fans, and whether or not Blizzard benefited from Kespa making the game so popular, the fact is that Blizzard does own the game, and you cannot broadcast it without their consent no? Or is that the debate going on right now?
IP rights aren't that cut and dry. Yeah Blizzard made the game, but to what extent should that give them control over an entire e-sport? It's arguable that BW as an e-sport is the creation of progamers and the like, and Blizz should have no jurisdiction over that. That's what most of the debate is about.
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
Blizzard disgusts me
I don't see the problem in this except OGN being dumb.
Blizzard says that OGN needs to get a license for their league or they will sue them, and OGN answers with the leagues schedule? OGN sounds like douchebags to me and Blizzard are doing the right thing. You can't hate on Blizzard cause they aren't willing to let people broadcast leagues without permission....
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
Blizzard disgusts me
I don't see the problem in this except OGN being dumb.
Blizzard says that OGN needs to get a license for their league or they will sue them, and OGN answers with the leagues schedule? OGN sounds like douchebags to me and Blizzard are doing the right thing. You can't hate on Blizzard cause they aren't willing to let people broadcast leagues without permission....
OGN successfully got a licensing for Korean Air StarLeague, but didn't renew for any future leagues. OGN forces a new one with a new sponsor. Blizzard goes "LOL WE SUE YOU NOW".
^ Blizzard is a huge corporation making tons of money from mediocre games lately banking on their previous very well made games and a PC game market that has sunken pretty low. OGN probably doesn't have the money to pay Blizzard's ridiculous costs and it's dumb that Blizzard has to squeeze money out of people who are simply promoting their company to begin with as well as their game. Blizzard has become associated only with money and no longer making quality games and listening to the responses of the community.
On November 05 2010 02:30 genai wrote: God i hope they win and stop those poachers and idiots in kespa!
Blizz loves money, nothing around that... but the main issue here is: they are making money by using game blizz made, without paying the licence to do so! blizz has never went after someone who used their stuff without making money (icefrog for example made it sure that people dont send him donations for dota, cause he is not allowed to make money off of dota)
they are not suing progamers and teams who only do what they agreed to when the game is bought: playing it!! they are suing people who get paid for the rights to broadcast it even tho those rights are not their to sell, and those who get sponsor money by broadcasting when they are not allowed to!
(and i like watching bw)
I don't know what world you live in, but if these "poachers" in Kespa were to be stopped, our progamers and teams would cease to exist.
I know... thats why they need to stop being poachers... i never said i want them to be shut down... just wish they would pay what they need to pay and continue with their business so yea, i live on earth... just dont like poachers...
OGN successfully got a licensing for Korean Air StarLeague, but didn't renew for any future leagues. OGN forces a new one with a new sponsor. Blizzard goes "LOL WE SUE YOU NOW".
Article says Blizzard asked to renew license. OGN instead starts new OSL without license.
On November 05 2010 02:45 AtTheFuneral wrote: ^ Blizzard is a huge corporation making tons of money from mediocre games lately banking on their previous very well made games and a PC game market that has sunken pretty low. OGN probably doesn't have the money to pay Blizzard's ridiculous costs and it's dumb that Blizzard has to squeeze money people out of people who are simply promoting their company to begin with as well as their game. Blizzard has become associated only with money and no longer making quality games and listening to the responses of the community.
I don't really play Blizzard games, but it's hard to come to that conclusion considering how wildly popular all their games are especially considering PC market isn't what it used to be. You may not like their games anymore, but few will agree with you.
OGN successfully got a licensing for Korean Air StarLeague, but didn't renew for any future leagues. OGN forces a new one with a new sponsor. Blizzard goes "LOL WE SUE YOU NOW".
ok,the suing them part is stupid and they shouldn't have gone to the extreme,but getting a license is also important,you just can't start the league like that.
I'm not saying Blizzard is right...I'm saying OGN is also wrong.
On November 05 2010 02:45 AtTheFuneral wrote: ^ Blizzard is a huge corporation making tons of money from mediocre games lately banking on their previous very well made games and a PC game market that has sunken pretty low. OGN probably doesn't have the money to pay Blizzard's ridiculous costs and it's dumb that Blizzard has to squeeze money out of people who are simply promoting their company to begin with as well as their game. Blizzard has become associated only with money and no longer making quality games and listening to the responses of the community.
You have no idea what you're saying...not one of any games they made was mediocre and even the SC2 boycotters would say that SC2 isn't bad.
this is too bad, I thought OGN was cooperating for a while there. I would hope there would be a way for these stations to make a little extra profit margin so they could just pay the broadcasting rights per tournament with no problems.. (crosses fingers)
On November 05 2010 02:45 AtTheFuneral wrote: ^ Blizzard is a huge corporation making tons of money from mediocre games lately banking on their previous very well made games and a PC game market that has sunken pretty low. OGN probably doesn't have the money to pay Blizzard's ridiculous costs and it's dumb that Blizzard has to squeeze money people out of people who are simply promoting their company to begin with as well as their game. Blizzard has become associated only with money and no longer making quality games and listening to the responses of the community.
Please do yourself and everyone who reads these a favour and read your post before you post it.
All I could really pull from this was that you have a need to lambaste Blizzard without any reasoning behind your opinion. Please explain your thoughts.
On November 05 2010 02:45 AtTheFuneral wrote: ^ Blizzard is a huge corporation making tons of money from mediocre games lately banking on their previous very well made games and a PC game market that has sunken pretty low. OGN probably doesn't have the money to pay Blizzard's ridiculous costs and it's dumb that Blizzard has to squeeze money people out of people who are simply promoting their company to begin with as well as their game. Blizzard has become associated only with money and no longer making quality games and listening to the responses of the community.
I don't really play Blizzard games, but it's hard to come to that conclusion considering how wildly popular all their games are especially considering PC market isn't what it used to be. You may not like their games anymore, but few will agree with you.
12 Million people paying 15$ every month for WoW
That's like 3-4 Million Starcraft2 copies every month.
OGN successfully got a licensing for Korean Air StarLeague, but didn't renew for any future leagues. OGN forces a new one with a new sponsor. Blizzard goes "LOL WE SUE YOU NOW".
Article says Blizzard asked to renew license. OGN instead starts new OSL without license.
This is Blizzard's and Gretech's side of the story, fyi. The entire article was provided by Blizzard and Gretech.
OGN successfully got a licensing for Korean Air StarLeague, but didn't renew for any future leagues. OGN forces a new one with a new sponsor. Blizzard goes "LOL WE SUE YOU NOW".
Article says Blizzard asked to renew license. OGN instead starts new OSL without license.
This is Blizzard's and Gretech's side of the story, fyi. The entire article was provided by Blizzard and Gretech.
I'm pretty sure this is not the full story.
Even then I think that side of story has more truth than Seliths.
I'm so tired of these blizzard characters. I think Starcraft original is a better game that the second one. I have no idea why I could go and play the SC2. This, only practically the same game, with very few innovations? No thx. And these dudes trying to make everyone switch, so the only reason (LOL anyone is playing it, only there i will have with whom to play) to go to sc2 begins to have sense. Its actually the only reason. Starcraft is perfect like the chess. And this new game has no soul. ( If it had, there would be clear that it wasn't just a copy and contained something new. Unfortunately it doesn't ( And now it looks only like the tool to make money. SC1 never looked so. Yes it may be a LITTLE better in some moments, and contain some of the things that attracted you in SC1 due to being its successor, but for all that - 60$? LOL NO THX.
So Blizzard, please go far far away, I'd prefer to never know about your existence, and your shit games. I'm sure that all decent developers can do better games and all your achievements are only because of money that you did receive with going beyond morale (for example with backstabbing the Korean pro scene that earned you SC:BW popularity). So I hope anyone will forget about your games, as WoW i perfectly know begins to annoy people, and there could come no more new players. And I hope other developers do better games so that we can forget about your shit.
I'm so disappointed that you got to "own" SC that wasn't made by you, the actual people who do now make all this freaking mess. I hope someday you go far far away.
I'm pretty sure Blizzard can't do anything because it took them this long for IP rights. I think there are some laws that If you don't do anything to protect your IP rights right off the bat after a few years it doesn't really matter if they try to sue you for it.
Well I never said SC2 was bad I think it's a pretty decent game just not as good as say Warcraft 3 or Starcraft or any of the Diablo games. I guess I was being overly dramatic and criticizing blizzard but for a game that they took forever making and drug out SC2 wasn't at all as good as I was expecting it to be. I was mainly talking about say WoW which has become really terrible and the new things that they add to the game just further set it back in terms of gameplay. If you want I could go into more specifics but this isn't about WoW at all. My point is that Blizzard went from being the company who you knew any game being released by them was going to be absoutely amazing and worth buying to maybe worth buying or mediocre. In my opinion ever since the Activision-Blizzard they have become a very detached company with a very superior attitude who is just like we're Blizzard and we do what we want and thats what I get from this situation too.
I really didn't think they'll go as far as to sue OGN as well. The CJ ownership thing aside, out of the two broadcasters, OGN was far more receptive to Blizzard's demand than MBC. If Blizzard sues them both and this goes down, who do they expect to air SC2 for them? you shit on the broadcasters and indirectly shit on some of the most influential chaebols.
On November 05 2010 03:33 moopie wrote: I really didn't think they'll go as far as to sue OGN as well. The CJ ownership thing aside, out of the two broadcasters, OGN was far more receptive to Blizzard's demand than MBC. If Blizzard sues them both and this goes down, who do they expect to air SC2 for them? you shit on the broadcasters and indirectly shit on some of the most influential chaebols.
Not a great image builder.
If there's money in it, they will broadcast it. They, too, like money.
On November 05 2010 01:52 HeaDStrong wrote: Stop talking about reselling. Nothing is being resold here. What they sell is a high level competitive play which if I am not mistaken does not come packed together with the game when you buy it. So it's not Blizzard's property.
The game itself is Blizzards property
All the sound, unit ideas, graphics, engine etc. is made by Blizzard.
That's why it's so hard for some people to get google partnership as gamers on youtube, because games don't actually belong to them and they can't make money off it despite doing commentary etc...
Even if you accept the premise of IP enforcement being just, it is impossible to say whether the game is Blizzard property. You see, it is the weak part of IP what determines whether an idea is a combination of old ideas, or a new one with elements of the old. In the first case, it would not be property, in fact Blizzard would be the one violating IP rights(ofthe ideas of the storyline, units, whatever) by making the game in the first place, in the second case they would be the owner.
So what determines whether an idea is new? Solely the political ability to enforce their belief.
As an implication of that, any claims similar to HeadStrong that claim fundamental ownership/authorship by Blizzard to exist, are STRICTLY INCORRECT. I repeat, it is STRICTLY impossible to create a theory of Intellectual Property with universal applicability, as such appeals to universality of rules are fallacious.
Find the cure for cancer, take it of the market because it's my right, it's my cure after all. You can go find your own but it sure can't incorporate anything I discovered, even by chance pretty much!
Not the same thing but can't they really just go milk wow with some more 25$ pets, they could even start charging for the best items like all those "free" browser mmo's, good money grubbing idea there.
I don't really care aside from the fact that I want my PL and starleagues, sc2 is finally getting watchable but I'm very pessimistic in blizzard doing anything to help bw* if they "win" and I still prefer it by far.
*bw's infrastructure >>>>>> sc2 infrastructure atm and I sincerely doubt blizz is going to favor bw.
So what, if they still want to broadcast starcraft without licence, the swat will come or something? I don't know at all how international laws work. Is anybody could explain what would happen to OGN and MBC if they come to lose and still decide to broadcast? Who's god? Who's the punisher?
On November 04 2010 23:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: I think Blizzard really wants to protect their rights....they're just being overprotective....
Don't you think it's slightly suspicious that they didn't do this 10 years ago and that all this has happened after SC2 has come out? I personally don't believe it's a coincidence at all.
it's not strange, because OGN and MBC were not charged with fees by KeSPA to air the tournatments until 2007 and that is exactly the point where Blizzard started to take action. And that's nothing abnormal every other company would do the same. You are allowed to share your stuff with others but when you generate a profit off it it's not legal anymore without the proper distribution rights.
It's basically the same with computer games. We all bought SC BW but that doesnt mean you own it. You made a contract with Blizzard to use their Software in a NONprofitable way. You can read that in every EULA in every game you try to install on your computer.
Isn't it strange to not sue KeSPA then, are they saying they don't have a problem with SC with being broadcast as long as money isn't paid to the entity running the teams for it? It's a pretty weird argument to try and say they honestly did not care till 2007 then suddenly rights became a big issue. That will look bad in court. It will be interesting to see how it goes, i don't believe the IP holder should be able to hold such an influence over a game just because they made it, especially many years after the fact. Should any developer be allowed complete control over competitive play of their game?
I think if the sum is acceptable, they should buy a license. No much difference to other stuff like buying the right to broadcast a soccer game or something else. Every company would sue you if you steal something from them.
On November 05 2010 03:15 _Quasar_ wrote: I'm so tired of these blizzard characters. I think Starcraft original is a better game that the second one. I have no idea why I could go and play the SC2. This, only practically the same game, with very few innovations? No thx. And these dudes trying to make everyone switch, so the only reason (LOL anyone is playing it, only there i will have with whom to play) to go to sc2 begins to have sense. Its actually the only reason. Starcraft is perfect like the chess. And this new game has no soul. ( If it had, there would be clear that it wasn't just a copy and contained something new. Unfortunately it doesn't ( And now it looks only like the tool to make money. SC1 never looked so. Yes it may be a LITTLE better in some moments, and contain some of the things that attracted you in SC1 due to being its successor, but for all that - 60$? LOL NO THX.
So Blizzard, please go far far away, I'd prefer to never know about your existence, and your shit games. I'm sure that all decent developers can do better games and all your achievements are only because of money that you did receive with going beyond morale (for example with backstabbing the Korean pro scene that earned you SC:BW popularity). So I hope anyone will forget about your games, as WoW i perfectly know begins to annoy people, and there could come no more new players. And I hope other developers do better games so that we can forget about your shit.
I'm so disappointed that you got to "own" SC that wasn't made by you, the actual people who do now make all this freaking mess. I hope someday you go far far away.
I don't understand what is so important about protecting IP rights of a game that's 10+ years old. It's not like broadcasting hurts them nor has Blizzard ever complained about it earlier. MBCGame has always broadcasted the Tekken Crash tournament and I've never seen Namco throw any form of tantrum over "IP rights".
Pretty sure Blizzard's lawyer can present a very convincing case, for reasons already rehashed repeatedly in this thread. I'll let the judges decide, since I'm just sitting on my couch speculating like everyone else in this thread.
As a fan I Blizzard's actions are really antagonistic- I consider them the bad guys. Blizzard made a relatively small investment in making Starcraft have profited immensely and then some.... half their sales came from South Korea and the community that developed there the culmination of which is Kespa and proleague, not to mention the even greater amount they're raking in from sc2 as a direct result of bw's popularity. They've had their hand on the rug under esports for a long time and now's the time they decide to pull it out from under all of us... and why? Because Kespa charged broadcasters a few hundred thousand to help offset expenses? Because viewers of proleague weren't being told again and again to thank Blizzard for SC1? Because they really really need the money from getting paid everytime time a tournament is broadcast on Korean TV?
Someone at Blizzard's got a huge ego and apparently doesn't like the idea of an independent organization defying them and continuing to popularize sc1 when everyone was supposed to jump for joy and migrate to sc2 upon release. So they're going to push the kill switch they know they've always had and set things right. It's not all about money, it's about control as well, and for those of us too stubborn to be corralled into their new cash cow voluntarily they don't mind taking the gloves off. So yeah, Blizzard has every legal right in the world to fuck us over. That doesn't change the fact that it's fucking us over though.
On November 05 2010 03:19 Xtar wrote: SC2 is doing so bad, Blizzard is getting desperate. Loving it.
Oh please. If you really cant say anything more idiotic, just don't post. :D
I never said SC2 was bad. I don't think it's bad but I won't say what I do think at this is not appreciated and not important to anyone else but myself.
But SC2 should have revived esports in Korea. It didn't. Watch the SDM videos. He's right there in the mud and also dislikes Kespa and knows/worked with most people in OGN, MBC, Kespa and Gomtv.
I guess if OGN, MBC, Kespa and whoever else is involved honestly thought that court proceedings would hurt their business, then there would be an agreement by now. They clearly think that they'll win or that they can settle if the lose. I hope they're right.
I think if the sum is acceptable, they should buy a license.
I think OGN/MBC/Kespa are willing to pay to broadcast. But negotiating with Gretech was taking too long, so they just started and will pay whatever the judge tells them to at the end of this.
I think if the sum is acceptable, they should buy a license.
I think OGN/MBC/Kespa are willing to pay to broadcast. But negotiating with Gretech was taking too long, so they just started and will pay whatever the judge tells them to at the end of this.
Thats what I'm hoping for at this point anyway.
The real problem is we don't know the amount of cash claimed by Blizz and because of that we can't say who is the Bad Boy. It's all pretty much speculation.
As stated in the article, OGN had a contract for Korean Air Season 2 and it seems like everything was smooth and a lot of people showed up for OSL than MSL... So what gives? Were they coerced by KeSPA? What caused their drawback?
Anyways, Blizzard and GomTV seems like their hands were forced into something they didn't want to happen. Of course you're going to get a lawsuit if you ignore IP rights. It's been that way with every game.
I don't like the way KeSPA is putting the entire SC1 scene in jeopardy because of their arrogant beliefs. At least let OGN do its thing.
Just to get it out of the way first, it's clear that Blizzard has the legal upper hand here; the IP rights and terms of agreement in the software allows Blizzard to demand KesPA to pay a license fee to broadcast games.
However, what I want to know is how much Blizzard is specifically demanding from KesPa. If I'm not mistaken, KesPA pours all of their (rather meager) profit back into their organization so that they can pay the players, organize more tournaments, keep a channel, etc. If this is true, it seems to me that KesPA may not have the money to pay off the amount of money Blizzard is demanding. In that case, Blizzard suing OGN and MBC seems to be a move meant to throw these companies completely out of the picture, which in my opinion is a rather foolish move. Considering the infrastructure that these companies have already developed, throwing them out of the picture would create huge backlash from both the fans of e-sports in Korea, from the sponsors of the e-sports teams, and from the progamers (who are soon to be out of a job). Blizzard doesn't have the revenue or infrastructure to handle a professional league, and throwing out the established organization would set professional gaming back quite a few paces.
Now before you guys spout off facts such as the millions of viewers from Boxer vs. Nada, SC2 isn't going to die, blah blah blah, $80,000 USD prize pool, keep in mind that the GSL players are no longer under contract of KesPA, or for that matter any organization that pays its players salaries. Players without salaries = no professional gaming, and suing the established figureheads OGN/MBC (and the only ones who have the revenue to pay their players since they put their profit back into the system), is a big fuck you to a lot of the possible sponsors in Korea. Telling a company to fuck off is not a good way to get them to support and sponsor you.
In my mind, Blizzard shouldn't ask KesPA for an exorbitant amount of money; instead they should ask KesPA for aid in promoting SC2 (something KesPA has not been doing very well, if at all), and in return Blizzard provides support for SC1. Who knows, maybe we may even get a bug fix patch for BW or better replay functions. This action would prove that they believe OSL and GSL can coincide.
tl;dr Blizzard has full rights to their creation, but the way they wield their power will hurt professional gaming.
Just a reminder, the practical implications of CJ's ownership stakes in OnMedia (the parent company of OGN) and Gretech are still unknown. There has been a lot of speculation, but we have not yet seen an example where CJ's ownership in either company has clearly led to some result.
On November 05 2010 04:35 Assymptotic wrote: In my mind, Blizzard shouldn't ask KesPA for an exorbitant amount of money; instead they should ask KesPA for aid in promoting SC2 (something KesPA has not been doing very well, if at all), and in return Blizzard provides support for SC1. Who knows, maybe we may even get a bug fix patch for BW or better replay functions. This action would prove that they believe OSL and GSL can coincide.
If Blizzard and KeSPA did come to an agreement before the launch of SC2 (Blizzard lowering their outrageous demands of having full control over everything, and KeSPA settling on some of their own) then I am certain they could have done some great things for SC2. That said, why would KeSPA be promoting SC2 given the situation that they are in? Blizzard is doing their bury KeSPA, KeSPA has 0 to gain by making SC2 look good at the moment.
On November 04 2010 22:18 lutarez wrote: If Gretech has the broadcast rights to BW, why haven't they rebooted their BW starleague? I mean, if BW is still profitable compared to SC2, they would've started one or have made plans to start one since the IP debacle. I think Blizzard and Gretech wants BW to die for good in favor of SC2.
How should they run a BW league? Nobody would be allowed to play in it, unless it is KeSPA sanctioned, and KeSPA would never agree to that.
So they made the next best thing and tried to allow the original leagues to run and to be broadcasted trough the usual channels. Sadly the negotiations about the terms and rights failed and they have to solve the differences through legal action.
I said it in the last topic, I will say it again. We don't know what happened during the negotiations and we don't know the whole truth and the intentions of all involved parties. All we get are second-hand information and PR statements from both sides (which might be correct, or might be deliberately misleading - another thing we can't know for sure). It doesn't help to be aggressive against Blizzard, KeSPA or anyone else.
And how did they managed to get Boxer, July, Nada, ......MVP, Sangho, Iron and so on?
Put some good cash in league and players will come.
Pretty Sure that everyone but MVP wasnt a "good" player nowadays in broodwar. just like boxer said he still wants to be a player but in BW he couldnt be on the top anymore. so he jumped in the new "easy" game. where he can still destroy people because they are scrubs.
and blizzard is funny.. they also started something against valve because of dota or??
30k$ a year while u get a house and food for free? shit no that doesnt suck.
On November 05 2010 04:35 Assymptotic wrote: In my mind, Blizzard shouldn't ask KesPA for an exorbitant amount of money; instead they should ask KesPA for aid in promoting SC2 (something KesPA has not been doing very well, if at all), and in return Blizzard provides support for SC1. Who knows, maybe we may even get a bug fix patch for BW or better replay functions. This action would prove that they believe OSL and GSL can coincide.
If Blizzard and KeSPA did come to an agreement before the launch of SC2 (Blizzard lowering their outrageous demands of having full control over everything, and KeSPA settling on some of their own) then I am certain they could have done some great things for SC2. That said, why would KeSPA be promoting SC2 given the situation that they are in? Blizzard is doing their bury KeSPA, KeSPA has 0 to gain by making SC2 look good at the moment.
I'd say what KesPA has to gain is a stronger foothold on the international scene with the blessing of Blizzard. Hell, most of us here know that the west does not look favorably on the idea of professional gaming; breaking that social stigma is something we've been unable to do. KesPA with more international prominence means more popularity and sponsors for them. If something like Verizon or AT&T sponsored KesPA, they'd make more bank than they do, and perhaps our dear progamers will actually make good salaries that reflect their work ethic.
I mean shit, practicing 12 hours a day, everyday, but only making about $30,000 USD a year if you're not a Jaedong or Bisu? That sucks.
And if you don't make it, you have very little to fall back on since most of these kids don't go to college or anything. If KesPA fell apart, so many kids would be dumped in a rough spot.
On November 05 2010 04:21 Savant wrote: Pretty sure Blizzard's lawyer can present a very convincing case, for reasons already rehashed repeatedly in this thread. I'll let the judges decide, since I'm just sitting on my couch speculating like everyone else in this thread.
As a fan I Blizzard's actions are really antagonistic- I consider them the bad guys. Blizzard made a relatively small investment in making Starcraft have profited immensely and then some.... half their sales came from South Korea and the community that developed there the culmination of which is Kespa and proleague, not to mention the even greater amount they're raking in from sc2 as a direct result of bw's popularity. They've had their hand on the rug under esports for a long time and now's the time they decide to pull it out from under all of us... and why? Because Kespa charged broadcasters a few hundred thousand to help offset expenses? Because viewers of proleague weren't being told again and again to thank Blizzard for SC1? Because they really really need the money from getting paid everytime time a tournament is broadcast on Korean TV?
Someone at Blizzard's got a huge ego and apparently doesn't like the idea of an independent organization defying them and continuing to popularize sc1 when everyone was supposed to jump for joy and migrate to sc2 upon release. So they're going to push the kill switch they know they've always had and set things right. It's not all about money, it's about control as well, and for those of us too stubborn to be corralled into their new cash cow voluntarily they don't mind taking the gloves off. So yeah, Blizzard has every legal right in the world to fuck us over. That doesn't change the fact that it's fucking us over though.
Thanks for making a very well-done post; you took the words right out of my mouth. This sums up everything perfectly so far in this debacle.
What a trashy company Blizzard has turned into. It's clear that they care more about filling their pockets with a bit of extra cash than they do about pleasing thousands of fans.
30k$ a year while u get a house and food for free? shit no that doesnt suck.
I don't know how the standard of living holds in Korea, but here, if I work 72-84 hour weeks within an unstable field where I have to forgo my eduction, with very little prospect of moving up (due to S-class players who stomp me), and only get paid $30,000 with room/meal, I would not be happy. To top it off, most of these progamers don't seem to have much freedom; when was the last time you heard of a progamer with a girlfriend? These guys are at the age where you're just horny as hell.
On November 05 2010 04:46 Assymptotic wrote: I mean shit, practicing 12 hours a day, everyday, but only making about $30,000 USD a year if you're not a Jaedong or Bisu? That sucks.
And if you don't make it, you have very little to fall back on since most of these kids don't go to college or anything. If KesPA fell apart, so many kids would be dumped in a rough spot.
The same is true for SC2, except at the moment since SC2 is in the dark ages of esports, if you're not a tournament winner (or a former BW bonjwa) you're practicing 12 hours a day and making next to nothing.
KeSPA's goal wasn't really to reach the west, they're the Korean e-sports Association. KeSPA has been working on branching to China, which is the only other real country with a BW following (their natural expansion).
If KeSPA actually had SC2 under its wing as well, it would probably be different since at the moment SC2 has fans in many countries. However, I'm still not sure that it is a worthwhile investment in infrastructure (and neither is Blizzard, which is why they haven't tried setting up individual/team leagues outside of Korea). Foreign fans tend to migrate towards the best and newest games and for the most part don't stick with a game long enough to form too many professional teams/players (and fans that stick around). This happened in BW as well.
The stigma against gaming in the west is something unrelated to both Blizzard and KeSPA and not one that will change in an instant (we'll get there eventually).
Hopefully now that OGN is being sued too, MBC will be able to find a sponsor for the MSL.
I don't care if it's not the legally correct side to go with, there's no way in hell I'm supporting Blizzard/Activision/Gretech in this. I'll stay with professional BW until it dies, and am not supporting another product from them until SCII/BW somehow manage to coexist (likely never.)
On November 05 2010 05:09 So no fek wrote: Hopefully now that OGN is being sued too, MBC will be able to find a sponsor for the MSL.
I don't care if it's not the legally correct side to go with, there's no way in hell I'm supporting Blizzard/Activision/Gretech in this. I'll stay with professional BW until it dies, and am not supporting another product from them until SCII/BW somehow manage to coexist (likely never.)
MSL is sponsored by PDPOP, another file-sharing organization.
On November 05 2010 05:09 So no fek wrote: Hopefully now that OGN is being sued too, MBC will be able to find a sponsor for the MSL.
I don't care if it's not the legally correct side to go with, there's no way in hell I'm supporting Blizzard/Activision/Gretech in this. I'll stay with professional BW until it dies, and am not supporting another product from them until SCII/BW somehow manage to coexist (likely never.)
Mmm, MSL already has a new sponsor this '10-'11 season, as in PD Pop MSL. So no worries about that!
As was said 10000000000 times before even if KeSPA are morons and Blizzard has legal rights to such an actions, that still doesnt mean that they are not greedy S.O.B.s.
30k$ a year while u get a house and food for free? shit no that doesnt suck.
I don't know how the standard of living holds in Korea, but here, if I work 72-84 hour weeks within an unstable field where I have to forgo my eduction, with very little prospect of moving up (due to S-class players who stomp me), and only get paid $30,000 with room/meal, I would not be happy. To top it off, most of these progamers don't seem to have much freedom; when was the last time you heard of a progamer with a girlfriend? These guys are at the age where you're just horny as hell.
Did you made your arguments by yourself?
I would like to remind you that most of progammers are under 18 and 30 grands is fantastic money for a kid.
Flash attended school and he also was top progamer.
If worse comes to worse, couldn't an opensource(or closed i guess) version of a starcraft clone be implemented for the BW pro gaming scene?
Since i'm pretty sure you can't copyright the "idea" of a game, just the specific implementation. The only issues would come in the form of patents - but i'm not sure how many of those blizzard has filed for starcraft.
On November 05 2010 05:25 dseo80 wrote: If worse comes to worse, couldn't an opensource(or closed i guess) version of a starcraft clone be implemented for the BW pro gaming scene?
Since i'm pretty sure you can't copyright the "idea" of a game, just the specific implementation. The only issues would come in the form of patents - but i'm not sure how many of those blizzard has filed for starcraft.
Looking at todays gaming industry, such patents do not exist.
On November 05 2010 05:20 krndandaman wrote: funny how blizzard suddenly cares about broadcasting rights years late, especially when starcraft was actually generating good money.
many 'funny how' posts...are u the same person?
it started in 2007 i think when bc rights were sold. as Blizz stated, they were forced to intervene. i dont think they would do anything if kespa didn't sell their IP. could be nice to have blizz support in e-sports but could be bad as we are seeing here...
come on guys. kespa was able to get the scene to higher level but with free money. with free money, any institution can grow big... but in the real world, no such thing as free money
moopie already addressed what the K stands for, so I will leave that alone.
Several pro gamers have girlfriends and it's their choice with what they do with their lives. Not yours. As much as everyone would like to see a Union form for the players nothing has materialized yet. They choose to accept the working conditions given to them in order to live out their dream.
I saw this news last night before going to sleep and its really disappointing. Just when we thought we had BW back.
On November 05 2010 04:39 Waxangel wrote: Just a reminder, the practical implications of CJ's ownership stakes in OnMedia (the parent company of OGN) and Gretech are still unknown. There has been a lot of speculation, but we have not yet seen an example where CJ's ownership in either company has clearly led to some result.
Hopefully we will see some positive result. Something like what happened with OGN and CJ merging their pro-teams.
On November 05 2010 04:46 Assymptotic wrote: I mean shit, practicing 12 hours a day, everyday, but only making about $30,000 USD a year if you're not a Jaedong or Bisu? That sucks.
And if you don't make it, you have very little to fall back on since most of these kids don't go to college or anything. If KesPA fell apart, so many kids would be dumped in a rough spot.
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
Blizzard disgusts me
OGN uses Blizzard's game as a medium for their own gain, I see nothing wrong with OGN having to pay royalties to Blizzard. I understand that this came from Blizzard and not a third-party unbiased source, but it certainly doesn't sound like OGN was/is willing to negotiate.
On November 05 2010 05:24 hitthat wrote: As was said 10000000000 times before even if KeSPA are morons and Blizzard has legal rights to such an actions, that still doesnt mean that they are not greedy S.O.B.s.
Truth to be said, all corporations and entities powered by corporations are greedy. Both KeSPA and ActiBlizzard wants $, and they don't want to lose it.
On November 05 2010 05:47 orgolove wrote: It's so funny. 99% of Korean netizens support Blizzard and disparage KeSPA. 99% of foreigners here support KeSPA and disparage Blizzard.
Hey, Blizzard, it's really convenient that you're owned by Activision now because it means that the two biggest dickbag companies in video gaming are really one in the same!
Honestly, Blizzard should grow the fuck up. I hope they not only lose this court case but I hope the Korean courts lay down some super ridiculous ruling on Blizzard too to make them wish they never pursued this path.
Sorry, but, without Blizzard's interference BW could easily continue for another decade, maybe even longer. So they really need to just leave the entire scene alone and go back to making MMOs.
edit: Stop bringing up royalties. OGN, MBC, and KeSPA have all said that while they feel they shouldn't have to pay royalties that they'd be okay with doing so. Blizzard doesn't care about that, they want complete control over the scene.
On November 05 2010 06:00 0neder wrote: That is quite funny.
I don't even have any idea what's true and what's not any more TT None of the sources we have are reliable, it's all propaganda / forumers giving their useless opinions
really surprises me. i thought they only have legal trouble with mbc.
but i guess it doesnt really matter in the end. either ogn/mbc/kespa/whoever win this case against blizz/gretech at the courts or bw will die in less than 4 months...
fuck you blizzard, sc2/gsl is getting rolling anyway, see e.g. boxers huge contract offer.
On November 05 2010 06:00 0neder wrote: That is quite funny.
I don't even have any idea what's true and what's not any more TT None of the sources we have are reliable, it's all propaganda / forumers giving their useless opinions
True is that the most people on this site is here to watch good Korean players competing in game which has distinctive micro and positioning and not require HD quality to identify objects in streams and vods.
On November 05 2010 06:00 0neder wrote: That is quite funny.
I don't even have any idea what's true and what's not any more TT None of the sources we have are reliable, it's all propaganda / forumers giving their useless opinions
Frankly, if Koreans really do support Blizzard en masse it's for only two reasons. First, they're used to KeSPA being a bunch of horrible douchebags to their players. Which is why, prior to this, most people on TL didn't like KeSPA. Second, they honestly believe that Blizzard wants Brood War to continue. That Blizzard wants to grow it and keep OGN and MBC playing Brood War.
Brood War is still way more popular than SC2 in South Korea. If South Koreans honestly thought that Blizzard was going to be shutting down or trying to harm the Brood War scene then no one would support them. So I don't now if the South Koreans are simply gullible, if those numbers are totally wrong and people's sentiments are much more divided than we've been hearing, or if Blizzard is reassuring their South Korean fans that they want to keep the BW scene alive while telling us Americans absolutely nothing.
Honestly though, Blizzard's actions do not reflect good intentions of keeping the scene alive. So how anyone could think that Blizzard has Brood War's best interest at heart is completely beyond me. That's why I don't believe this shit about, "most Koreans support Blizzard!"
It says that "OGN has acquired the rights" but then "OGN will air OSL without consent".
1. Isn't it enough to acquire the rights? Doesn't that mean green light?
2. How can Blizzard lose something like this? This isn't like football or anything. This is a product made and own by Blizzard and they have the right to their own game, or?
mmmm I guess this was inevitable, but it's still pretty depressing.I don't see how OGN is going to wiggle itself out of this, so hopefully the damage isn't too harsh.
i don't think the situation of kespa being the de-facto licensing body for competitive sc can continue. it does not continue in the non-boring branch of development (blizzard demanding money above profitable operation level for sc broadcasting, tournaments collapse and need to be reorganized under a different structure). that leaves the interesting question of how players are to be organized.
some enterprising guy with legal and labor organization experience might be able to form a union or something to establish some new leagues in cooperation with the sponsor teams.
As I said, suing MBC was a good legal tactic by Blizzard and now OGN. By going them after first, you can stall and delay, and stop the broadcast of "illegally" ran tournaments, instead of fighting KeSPA first for a longer legal battle.
And of course, Blizzard can try to sue KeSPA, as well, but the big problem is, KeSPA is made from many other parties. If Blizzard does win, then those other parties will have to pay up for the settlement, since KeSPA states itself as a NPO.
I still love the original SC and BW and the games that Blizzard have made, but I am no fanatic of either party in this whole mess. I do question some of the actions that Blizzard has made directly and indirectly into their lastest games and also to their gaming community.
However, I do believe that KeSPA really got themselves into this mess in the first place, and if they do fall, it is by their ignorance. They state that e-sports is not a profitable venture, which is likely true IMO, and that they are running into deficits each year just running the leagues. For three years, they couldn't negotiate or settle this matter knowing that they are already losing revenue for maintaining their current structure. I would of hoped if that they would of just agreed to Blizzard's terms, however how "unfair" it is, they could at least get Blizzard's approval and sponsorship. Blizzard is already sponsoring the GSLs and other tournaments. Companies are not likely going to sponsor KeSPA SCBW sanctioned tournaments due to possible legal action by Blizzard if they do so.
This is a very interesting case for me, because I am a law student, and that a game has an enormous impact of a culture. I do wonder how the Korean courts will handle this matter of IP rights. I wonder if Blizzard loses, will they turn to the US and WTO, and maybe WCO for help.
On November 05 2010 06:30 papaz wrote: 2. How can Blizzard lose something like this? This isn't like football or anything. This is a product made and own by Blizzard and they have the right to their own game, or?
Blizzard was only interested in IP rights in 2007 when SC2 was announced. Blizzard has been aware of televised events for years, and in fact, Blizzard employees have frequently attended pro-StarCraft matches on numerous occasions. Even in the beginning when pro-Brood War was first getting started. The court will definitely be interested as to why Blizzard was okay with it then but isn't okay with it now.
KeSPA, OGN, and MBC have created an industry off of a game that Blizzard created. There is no good precedent for this case and MBC/OGN lawyers will likely argue that they're protected as their players are simply using software that Blizzard created to make something unique. I'd imagine it's the same defense a group like MLG would use if a developer ever tried to shut them down.
Copyrights laws aren't as strong as people like to think they are and I don't know enough about Korean law to really make an educated opinion on the court case, I just know that the case could very easily go either way.
30k$ a year while u get a house and food for free? shit no that doesnt suck.
I don't know how the standard of living holds in Korea, but here, if I work 72-84 hour weeks within an unstable field where I have to forgo my eduction, with very little prospect of moving up (due to S-class players who stomp me), and only get paid $30,000 with room/meal, I would not be happy. To top it off, most of these progamers don't seem to have much freedom; when was the last time you heard of a progamer with a girlfriend? These guys are at the age where you're just horny as hell.
if i get 30k a year for not being great. and get anything else sponsored god damn yes i feel lucky and happy.
so tell me which pro in any kind of sport has freedom? its the god damn sacrifice if you want 2 become a pro in every single sport/game.
well the last time i heard of a progamer with a girlfriend is not 2 long ago stork
but iam pretty sure the price hunting you have right now is way better ! right? oh and you also have to consider its korea and not US /europe.
Seriously, if I was making 30k a year at the age of 15-17 in a country where it's absurdly hard to find a job in your 20s I'd consider myself really fucking fortunate.
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
Blizzard disgusts me
I completely agree with this.
Before, I was giving Blizzard some slack because they were fighting only with MBCGame & Kespa... and both do act pretty sketchy.
But now, Blizzard is intentionally trying to kill off ALL OF BW. There's no other word for it. If they actually CARED, they would let something that has existed for a DECADE continue as usual, but NOW they suddenly care so much about IP rights of a game created over a decade ago??? And they've been letting OGN & MBC broadcast it for FREE???
IMO Blizzard should be paying OGN and MBC for free advertising and popularization of SCBW into something greater than just a video game. Blizzard owes a huge part of SC2's success to the Korean Scene, which was all created by OGN, MBC, and Kespa... and yet now it wants to kill off everything.
They can't settle this out of court. They have been trying for three years, and no luck, so they have to settle this in court. That's what going to court is all about, to get a legal settlement between parties.
However, I do agree that it should of not come to this.
EDIT- Another thing, people always seem have this conceptual idea that going to court is a bad thing. If parties can't come to an agreement or settlement, why keep fighting when you can settle it by law.
Note: The following is my own opinion as I'm not qualified to make factual statements about anything regarding this issue.
I don't think Blizzard is going to kill KeSPA. If they die it's because they stubbornly held out and killed themselves. Once (if) OGN and MBC comply with the fee & 50-50 IP rights debacle or whatever the agreement they come to, Blizzard will allow them to continue their leagues. I mean, if MBC and OGN comply, what can Blizzard say they're doing wrong then? Nothing. And it'd be stupid for anyone to believe they'd push any further than that to "kill BW" because that'd erase all support from Korean citizens. KeSPA may still be pissy with Blizzard afterwards but without OGN/MBC, the Proleague cant air, so they'll have to accept it if they want to live. People say it's not so profitable so the fees are too much, but KeSPA is full of Big, Rich, Corporations. All they have to do is write it off as advertising (which is what their teams are made for - or should be) and everything's fine.
The ideal way I think this can (and should) work is: 1. OGN/MBC want to air BW for ratings, so they contract a deal with Blizzard/Gretech for permission. 2. KeSPA want's its teams (faces of the sponsors) in BW leagues for advertisement, so they contract a deal with OGN/MBC to pay some/all the fees. 3. OSL/MSL/Proleague continue, OGN/MBC get ratings, KeSPA (Sponsors) get's advertisement, and because of Sponsors happy with their names plastered on TV, they in turn continue funding their teams to better the team's (and in turn the Sponsors name!) success, popularity, and stability. 4. Blizzard is happy people respect their IP rights, Gretech is happy people respect their contract to sub-license broadcasting for Blizzard games, OGN/MBC are happy they get tons of people tuning in to their channels, KeSPA (Sponsors) is/are happy that people think of Samsung, SKT, etc etc when watching BW, Fans are happy they're still able to watch BW.
Afterthought: Trust builds between the different parties, SC2 may also be broadcast on awesome channels bringing in even more viewers, BW dies of natural death when (if) it's not so popular anymore, Sponsors create SC2 teams for further (international) advertisement, and e-Sports truly grows.
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
Blizzard disgusts me
^ Exactly how I feel.
I wonder if this is related to bobby kotick anyhow.. I mean he did come into power in '07...
All they have to do is write it off as advertising (which is what their teams are made for - or should be) and everything's fine.
A team just disbanded this year because the sponsor couldn't afford/didn't want to pay for it. It's very likely that Blizzard generates more money annually than OGN, MBC, or KeSPA. Blizzard isn't interested in royalties nor are they interested in letting the scene continue nor are they interested in IP rights. They want BW to get out of the way so that the BW fans will be forced to move on to SC2. Why would they let this scene go on for over a decade and only try to destroy it and file a lawsuit when their sequel comes out and begins airing on Korean television?
On November 05 2010 07:34 Pleiades wrote: The problem is, most progamers don't make 30k a year.
Your source? Flash earned 400 Mil won last year, his salary is about half that (the other half is price money).. It make sense that a lesser pro player would earn 1/10 of that. Unless you you can present evidence that suggest otherwise.
SC2: Only a few people earning money (about 100k/year max?). The rest get none. Housing? Food?
SC1: Only a few people earning big money (about 370k/year max? aka Flash's earning last year).. The rest get paid a significantly smaller amount (30k/year on average according to unverified sources).. Housing and food paid for..
How do some people can even say that there is more money to be had in GSL (sc2) is a mystery to me.
All these talks on working conditions and girlfriend is garbage, imo.. Its so far out of point that clearly people who mentioned this is only saying so in hope of making the other side look more negative.. And in case those need being addressed (some already are), Stork has gf (as mentioned by someone else) and Light pimp after games like nobody's business.
Regarding training time/working hour.. The standard training hour for A-teamers = 10 hours/day.. Any extra training is carried out under the player's own volition and fueled only by his desire to get better.. 10 hours/day is a VERY normal amount for working adults where i came from.. My friend who graduated from University recently now works as a trainee manager for Charles and Kleith, as well as a few others, works 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week.. It is much worse in places like Japan (average get-home time 9pm? o.O).. Just because in the US people get off work asap doesnt mean that culture applies everywhere in the world.. More to the point: the progamers' working condition isnt even close to being bad.. Plus getting to work towards ur dreams is a luxury enjoyed by few.. Most wither away behind a generic office table.
Since more discussions and analogies and such wont be appreciated by most.. I would just express my hope that Blizzard fail to exert their dominance and that the e-Sport scene will continue to flourish.
PS: For the guys that claims that SC2 is a great game.. Sorry to offend, but in my honest opinion you are likely newbies to the gaming scene to be able to pass SC2 off as "great".. If you can, you can look up (or try playing) their older products and list down on paper their pros, cons and features of innovation, you will be able to see for yourself the general trend of quality in their releases. For a quick reference, SC:BW and Diablo2 was legendary, WC3 + TFT was good, SC2 is ... Also many seem to consider The Burning Crusade to be much better than Wrath of the Lich King.
Wow, can't believe OSL might get shut down. OGN is pretty much screwed as I understand.
I don't think its that bad. OGN did this very intentionally. They must be assuming that the probable legal outcome is better than just agreeing to Gretech's terms.
Sure, they might get their power cut in the middle of a match. But if they thought that likely, they would have just renewed their contract.
On November 05 2010 07:27 overt wrote: Seriously, if I was making 30k a year at the age of 15-17 in a country where it's absurdly hard to find a job in your 20s I'd consider myself really fucking fortunate.
How is it absurdly hard to find a job in South Korea?
All the misinformation in these threads make me sick.
On November 05 2010 05:47 orgolove wrote: It's so funny. 99% of Korean netizens support Blizzard and disparage KeSPA. 99% of foreigners here support KeSPA and disparage Blizzard.
I support broodwar. Source on the 99% of koreans supporting blizzard over kespa on this situation?
Your source? Flash earned 400 Mil won last year, his salary is about half that (the other half is price money).. It make sense that a lesser pro player would earn 1/10 of that. Unless you you can present evidence that suggest otherwise.
SC2: Only a few people earning money (about 100k/year max?). The rest get none. Housing? Food?
SC1: Only a few people earning big money (about 370k/year max? aka Flash's earning last year).. The rest get paid a significantly smaller amount (30k/year on average according to unverified sources).. Housing and food paid for..
How do some people can even say that there is more money to be had in GSL (sc2) is a mystery to me.
All these talks on working conditions and girlfriend is garbage, imo.. Its so far out of point that clearly people who mentioned this is only saying so in hope of making the other side look more negative.. And in case those need being addressed (some already are), Stork has gf (as mentioned by someone else) and Light pimp after games like nobody's business.
Regarding training time/working hour.. The standard training hour for A-teamers = 10 hours/day.. Any extra training is carried out under the player's own volition and fueled only by his desire to get better.. 10 hours/day is a VERY normal amount for working adults where i came from.. My friend who graduated from University recently now works as a trainee manager for Charles and Kleith, as well as a few others, works 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week.. It is much worse in places like Japan (average get-home time 9pm? o.O).. Just because in the US people get off work asap doesnt mean that culture applies everywhere in the world.. More to the point: the progamers' working condition isnt even close to being bad.. Plus getting to work towards ur dreams is a luxury enjoyed by few.. Most wither away behind a generic office table.
Since more discussions and analogies and such wont be appreciated by most.. I would just express my hope that Blizzard fail to exert their dominance and that the e-Sport scene will continue to flourish.
PS: For the guys that claims that SC2 is a great game.. Sorry to offend, but in my honest opinion you are likely newbies to the gaming scene to be able to pass SC2 off as "great".. If you can, you can look up (or try playing) their older products and list down on paper their pros, cons and features of innovation, you will be able to see for yourself the general trend of quality in their releases. For a quick reference, SC:BW and Diablo2 was legendary, WC3 + TFT was good, SC2 is ... Also many seem to consider The Burning Crusade to be much better than Wrath of the Lich King.
As I said, "MOST"... not everyone is a Flash, Boxer, or Nada who can make big bucks off progaming. I didn't say that you couldn't, but the reality is, you take a big risk on that chance instead of investing your time on another.
I'll respect your opinion on things, and I agree on a few of the comments you've made in your post, but as most things change over time, including gaming, you should know that what SC/BW is to you is the same as SC2 is to newer gamers or younger people.
I hope Korea fights with all they have against Blizzard. I hope for the future of E-Sports that OGN somehow wins this thing.
Also I'd be really interested if the majority of Korean netizens really think that Blizzard should win this. In my opinion there is no doubt that a Blizzard monopoly would be harmful for E-Sports.
I didn't want to participate in this discussion but just reading that thread is so painful and depressing... Speculations, misinformations, jumps to conclusions... between teenagers who know nothing about law, and startled die-hards who spout absurd statements, I learned absolutely nothing and now my brain hurts.
-Spitting nonsensical and uninformed legal gibberish? check. -Comparing BW with coca-cola? check. -Saying blizzard loves money? check. (Who doesn't love money btw) -Bashing sc2 pointlessly? check. -Threatening of boycotting blizzard's products even though you enjoy playing and watching BW? check.
Please just think about the reader before posting.
Also I would like to thank the mods who carefully watch the threads related to that topic.
Hopefully this whole mess will be resolved and Bw leagues will be able to go on.
"Maybe we had commited copyrighted infringment but you gotta to know that we've done everything in our power to support the StarCraft: Brood War franchise. And if it werent for us, the franchise wouldn't be as nearly as strong as it is right now. Look around junks, there are more StarCraft fans than ever before and the more you try to stiffle on creativity, the more we will try to express our love for a game that is more about bunch of socially rejected nerds playing video games, its about fighting for what you believe in and putting your pride, your dignity on the line in front of thousands and thousands of fans."
On November 05 2010 09:04 Kanil wrote: If Blizzard is suing the two TV stations that currently show StarCraft... then how do they plan on getting StarCraft 2 on TV?
Do they think the GSL can be viable long-term on just internet streams?
Correct me if I'm wrong but the GSL is broadcasted on Korean tv, and they've been getting huge viewer counts.
On November 05 2010 09:04 Kanil wrote: If Blizzard is suing the two TV stations that currently show StarCraft... then how do they plan on getting StarCraft 2 on TV?
Do they think the GSL can be viable long-term on just internet streams?
Correct me if I'm wrong but the GSL is broadcasted on Korean tv, and they've been getting huge viewer counts.
On November 05 2010 04:35 Assymptotic wrote: Just to get it out of the way first, it's clear that Blizzard has the legal upper hand here; the IP rights and terms of agreement in the software allows Blizzard to demand KesPA to pay a license fee to broadcast games. ...
Blizzard might claim that what you see when you watch a broadcasted game is their graphics and sounds.
This kind of statement is of course far from the truth: Imagine you start a Broodwar game between two computer opponents. The result is what you get when you use only Blizzards IP and nothing else.
So it is quite clear that at least a big part of the content which is broadcasted in a Broodwar game is actually not a creation from Blizzard. The part which makes a game interesting is the intelligence and the skill of the players and this part is certainly not IP from Blizzard.
As far as I understand (correct me if I am wrong) Broodwar can be modded pretty heavily. So what would you say if KeSPA started to use their own KeSPA mod with totally different graphics and sounds (even if the units still behave the same). They already have their own maps. Now with heavily modified graphics and sounds you would have pretty big difficulties to even recognize that you are seeing a Broodwar match if you just took a short glance.
So no: To me it is not clear at all that US copyright law allows Blizzard to control the broadcasting of KeSPA organized tournaments. Maybe it might force KeSPA to do their own mod...
Of course all this is in Korea and not the US; and I certainly have no clue about Korean copyright law. It might be pretty helpful for the discussion if someone who has a clue about Korean copyright law would comment :-).
On November 05 2010 04:35 Assymptotic wrote: Just to get it out of the way first, it's clear that Blizzard has the legal upper hand here; the IP rights and terms of agreement in the software allows Blizzard to demand KesPA to pay a license fee to broadcast games. ...
Blizzard might claim that what you see when you watch a broadcasted game is their graphics and sounds.
This kind of statement is of course far from the truth: Imagine you start a Broodwar game between two computer opponents. The result is what you get when you use only Blizzards IP and nothing else.
So it is quite clear that at least a big part of the content which is broadcasted in a Broodwar game is actually not a creation from Blizzard. The part which makes a game interesting is the intelligence and the skill of the players and this part is certainly not IP from Blizzard.
As far as I understand (correct me if I am wrong) Broodwar can be modded pretty heavily. So what would you say if KeSPA started to use their own KeSPA mod with totally different graphics and sounds (even if the units still behave the same). They already have their own maps. Now with heavily modified graphics and sounds you would have pretty big difficulties to even recognize that you are seeing a Broodwar match if you just took a short glance.
So no: To me it is not clear at all that US copyright law allows Blizzard to control the broadcasting of KeSPA organized tournaments. Maybe it might force KeSPA to do their own mod...
Of course all this is in Korea and not the US; and I certainly have no clue about Korean copyright law. It might be pretty helpful for the discussion if someone who has a clue about Korean copyright law would comment :-).
AND Kespa did their own map too so it would only be using the software as a tool instead of actually using maps provided by Blizzard.
On November 04 2010 20:55 CanucksJC wrote: Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league on October 22, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL and MSL from KeSPA. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
tbh i agree it is a shame blizzard goes to such lengths for IP rights :<
On November 05 2010 09:08 AlBundy wrote: I didn't want to participate in this discussion but just reading that thread is so painful and depressing... Speculations, misinformations, jumps to conclusions... between teenagers who know nothing about law, and startled die-hards who spout absurd statements, I learned absolutely nothing and now my brain hurts.
-Spitting nonsensical and uninformed legal gibberish? check. -Comparing BW with coca-cola? check. -Saying blizzard loves money? check. (Who doesn't love money btw) -Bashing sc2 pointlessly? check. -Threatening of boycotting blizzard's products even though you enjoy playing and watching BW? check.
Please just think about the reader before posting.
Also I would like to thank the mods who carefully watch the threads related to that topic.
Hopefully this whole mess will be resolved and Bw leagues will be able to go on.
Two can play that game.
-Spitting nonsensical and uninformed legal gibberish? check by both sides. -Saying a 4 month old game is great? check. -Saying Blizzard loves e-sports? check. -BW is old and needs to die for the new? check. -Proleague is not Blizzard's product lol. check.
Why do you have Korean pro-team tags when you don't even know what it is?
On November 05 2010 09:08 AlBundy wrote: I didn't want to participate in this discussion but just reading that thread is so painful and depressing... Speculations, misinformations, jumps to conclusions... between teenagers who know nothing about law, and startled die-hards who spout absurd statements, I learned absolutely nothing and now my brain hurts.
-Spitting nonsensical and uninformed legal gibberish? check. -Comparing BW with coca-cola? check. -Saying blizzard loves money? check. (Who doesn't love money btw) -Bashing sc2 pointlessly? check. -Threatening of boycotting blizzard's products even though you enjoy playing and watching BW? check.
Please just think about the reader before posting.
Also I would like to thank the mods who carefully watch the threads related to that topic.
Hopefully this whole mess will be resolved and Bw leagues will be able to go on.
I just searched and found two of yours posts that are something like what you criticize here if not worse:
On November 05 2010 09:34 vishrut wrote: blizzard should let osl, msl, pl continue but make them put an sc2 ad in every few commercial breaks
You know, I bet that if Blizzard let Kespa do whatever they want, Kespa will probably do the same thing to SC2 as to BW therefore more progamers will be willing to make a switch.
I don't understand, Each side has something to offer to each other, and benefits of it are absolutely HUGE. Why can't they just settle down on a deal rather than insisting on their own position?
Kespa has power to put SC2 on tv, Blizzard can let them continue SC1 without making unreasonable demands.
If it drags like this for any longer SC1 will slowly die while SC2 will lose that crucial momentum to grow in SK by being delayed on being put on TV. =(
-Spitting nonsensical and uninformed legal gibberish? check by both sides. -Saying a 4 month old game is great? check. -Saying Blizzard loves e-sports? check. -BW is old and needs to die for the new? check. -Proleague is not Blizzard's product lol. check.
Why do you have Korean pro-team tags when you don't even know what it is?
I don't think he is against the BW pro-scene, just that some people on the forums who are pro-BW aren't exactly responding quite nicely. Although I do get why, but please don't get so defensive and angry at him or me.
On November 05 2010 09:34 vishrut wrote: blizzard should let osl, msl, pl continue but make them put an sc2 ad in every few commercial breaks
You know, I bet that if Blizzard let Kespa do whatever they want, Kespa will probably do the same thing to SC2 as to BW therefore more progamers will be willing to make a switch.
sc2 does not have LAN - it's impossible to do what KeSPA did with BW as blizzard can simply shut any league down on bnet "2.0".
On November 05 2010 09:04 Kanil wrote: If Blizzard is suing the two TV stations that currently show StarCraft... then how do they plan on getting StarCraft 2 on TV?
Do they think the GSL can be viable long-term on just internet streams?
Correct me if I'm wrong but the GSL is broadcasted on Korean tv, and they've been getting huge viewer counts.
GomTV isn't a TV station, its purely internet streaming and vods for download. Consider yourself corrected.
On November 05 2010 09:08 AlBundy wrote: I didn't want to participate in this discussion but just reading that thread is so painful and depressing... Speculations, misinformations, jumps to conclusions... between teenagers who know nothing about law, and startled die-hards who spout absurd statements, I learned absolutely nothing and now my brain hurts.
-Spitting nonsensical and uninformed legal gibberish? check. -Comparing BW with coca-cola? check. -Saying blizzard loves money? check. (Who doesn't love money btw) -Bashing sc2 pointlessly? check. -Threatening of boycotting blizzard's products even though you enjoy playing and watching BW? check.
Please just think about the reader before posting.
Also I would like to thank the mods who carefully watch the threads related to that topic.
Hopefully this whole mess will be resolved and Bw leagues will be able to go on.
Two can play that game.
-Spitting nonsensical and uninformed legal gibberish? check by both sides. -Saying a 4 month old game is great? check. -Saying Blizzard loves e-sports? check. -BW is old and needs to die for the new? check. -Proleague is not Blizzard's product lol. check.
Why do you have Korean pro-team tags when you don't even know what it is?
You are right two can play that game but isn't that irrelevant? If you read my post you can see that I didn't even choose a side, precisely because both seem helpless.
@palexhur thanks for stalking me, that feels good. I think I'm going to come to colombia and start stalking you too. Hopefully on my way I won't be abducted by a bunch of hopeless guerilleros
By the way you're not a very good stalker. If you knew me you'd know that I'm not a " SC2 fan converted to a Blizzard fanboy" who presents myself like "a very mature guy". Unlike some people, instead of blindly standing up for one side, I try to act reasonably and in moderation. Unfortunately people jump on each other like victims of a plane crash who have no choice but to become cannibals in order to survive. But please go on, speculation and false accusations are very entertaining whether they come from activision blizzard's side, or kespa/ogn/mbc's side.
Your source? Flash earned 400 Mil won last year, his salary is about half that (the other half is price money).. It make sense that a lesser pro player would earn 1/10 of that. Unless you you can present evidence that suggest otherwise.
SC2: Only a few people earning money (about 100k/year max?). The rest get none. Housing? Food?
SC1: Only a few people earning big money (about 370k/year max? aka Flash's earning last year).. The rest get paid a significantly smaller amount (30k/year on average according to unverified sources).. Housing and food paid for..
How do some people can even say that there is more money to be had in GSL (sc2) is a mystery to me.
All these talks on working conditions and girlfriend is garbage, imo.. Its so far out of point that clearly people who mentioned this is only saying so in hope of making the other side look more negative.. And in case those need being addressed (some already are), Stork has gf (as mentioned by someone else) and Light pimp after games like nobody's business.
Regarding training time/working hour.. The standard training hour for A-teamers = 10 hours/day.. Any extra training is carried out under the player's own volition and fueled only by his desire to get better.. 10 hours/day is a VERY normal amount for working adults where i came from.. My friend who graduated from University recently now works as a trainee manager for Charles and Kleith, as well as a few others, works 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week.. It is much worse in places like Japan (average get-home time 9pm? o.O).. Just because in the US people get off work asap doesnt mean that culture applies everywhere in the world.. More to the point: the progamers' working condition isnt even close to being bad.. Plus getting to work towards ur dreams is a luxury enjoyed by few.. Most wither away behind a generic office table.
Since more discussions and analogies and such wont be appreciated by most.. I would just express my hope that Blizzard fail to exert their dominance and that the e-Sport scene will continue to flourish.
PS: For the guys that claims that SC2 is a great game.. Sorry to offend, but in my honest opinion you are likely newbies to the gaming scene to be able to pass SC2 off as "great".. If you can, you can look up (or try playing) their older products and list down on paper their pros, cons and features of innovation, you will be able to see for yourself the general trend of quality in their releases. For a quick reference, SC:BW and Diablo2 was legendary, WC3 + TFT was good, SC2 is ... Also many seem to consider The Burning Crusade to be much better than Wrath of the Lich King.
As I said, "MOST"... not everyone is a Flash, Boxer, or Nada who can make big bucks off progaming. I didn't say that you couldn't, but the reality is, you take a big risk on that chance instead of investing your time on another.
I'll respect your opinion on things, and I agree on a few of the comments you've made in your post, but as most things change over time, including gaming, you should know that what SC/BW is to you is the same as SC2 is to newer gamers or younger people.
I'm failry young (17) and only started playing StarCraft seriously in 2008 or 2009 (around that time). I have no nostalgia. My opinion is unbiased.
And I can honestly tell you that I think StarCraft 2 is a piece of shit compared to Brood War.
I even prefer vanilla StarCraft to StarCraft 2, which it is more fair to compare StarCraft 2 to, considering StarCraft 2 does not have an expansion.
And don't tell me that the reason SC2 sucks is that there haven't been enough patches. They started patching it very long ago, back in beta. StarCraft 2 is just never going to be as good as Brood war for me. Of course I respect other opinions. If you prefer StarCraft 2, that's fine, but for me and many other people SC2 will never be as good as BW - and this is not because we're nostalgic or biased. Believe me, we want SC2 to live up to BW since it's going to replace it. We're just pissed that BW is being replaced by an inferior game, not that it's being replaced.
I'm personally glad. They gave OGN the terms, OGN basically told them "go f*ck yourself" by sending them back the schedule. So blizz filed their previously prepared lawsuit.
Another dynamic is also at work here... Blizzard owes it to Gretech, the only company who bothered to obtain the rights legally, to protect them from poaching. If blizz did nothing, it would say to Gretech that Blizz doesn't appreciate their honorable business practices in the slightest.
On November 05 2010 09:08 AlBundy wrote: I didn't want to participate in this discussion but just reading that thread is so painful and depressing... Speculations, misinformations, jumps to conclusions... between teenagers who know nothing about law, and startled die-hards who spout absurd statements, I learned absolutely nothing and now my brain hurts.
-Spitting nonsensical and uninformed legal gibberish? check. -Comparing BW with coca-cola? check. -Saying blizzard loves money? check. (Who doesn't love money btw) -Bashing sc2 pointlessly? check. -Threatening of boycotting blizzard's products even though you enjoy playing and watching BW? check.
Please just think about the reader before posting.
Also I would like to thank the mods who carefully watch the threads related to that topic.
Hopefully this whole mess will be resolved and Bw leagues will be able to go on.
Two can play that game.
-Spitting nonsensical and uninformed legal gibberish? check by both sides. -Saying a 4 month old game is great? check. -Saying Blizzard loves e-sports? check. -BW is old and needs to die for the new? check. -Proleague is not Blizzard's product lol. check.
Why do you have Korean pro-team tags when you don't even know what it is?
I think this is what gets to most SC2 fans. SC:BW veterans spitting on SC2, despite not playing it as much. Saying a 4 month old game is great. What's wrong with that?
Of course Starcraft 2 is great, my friends and I have fun playing on it. You got a problem with that?
On November 05 2010 09:08 AlBundy wrote: I didn't want to participate in this discussion but just reading that thread is so painful and depressing... Speculations, misinformations, jumps to conclusions... between teenagers who know nothing about law, and startled die-hards who spout absurd statements, I learned absolutely nothing and now my brain hurts.
-Spitting nonsensical and uninformed legal gibberish? check. -Comparing BW with coca-cola? check. -Saying blizzard loves money? check. (Who doesn't love money btw) -Bashing sc2 pointlessly? check. -Threatening of boycotting blizzard's products even though you enjoy playing and watching BW? check.
Please just think about the reader before posting.
Also I would like to thank the mods who carefully watch the threads related to that topic.
Hopefully this whole mess will be resolved and Bw leagues will be able to go on.
Two can play that game.
-Spitting nonsensical and uninformed legal gibberish? check by both sides. -Saying a 4 month old game is great? check. -Saying Blizzard loves e-sports? check. -BW is old and needs to die for the new? check. -Proleague is not Blizzard's product lol. check.
Why do you have Korean pro-team tags when you don't even know what it is?
You are right two can play that game but isn't that irrelevant? If you read my post you can see that I didn't even choose a side, precisely because both seem helpless.
@palexhur thanks for stalking me, that feels good. I think I'm going to come to colombia and start stalking you too. Hopefully on my way I won't be abducted by a bunch of hopeless guerilleros
By the way you're not a very good stalker. If you knew me you'd know that I'm not a " SC2 fan converted to a Blizzard fanboy" who presents myself like "a very mature guy". Unlike some people, instead of blindly standing up for one side, I try to act reasonably and in moderation. Unfortunately people jump on each other like victims of a plane crash who have no choice but to become cannibals in order to survive. But please go on, speculation and false accusations are very entertaining whether they come from activision blizzard's side, or kespa/ogn/mbc's side.
It feels so good when a "no teenager" guy refute something about some video game with the issues in some country, please continue, you can PM whenever you want. check
Another dynamic is also at work here... Blizzard owes it to Gretech, the only company who bothered to obtain the rights legally, to protect them from poaching..
OGN legally bought the rights to broadcast StarCraft from Hanbisoft, who worked under Blizzard.
It's the right thing to do because if Blizzard does not protect it they will just be abused. It's their game and it's kind of saddening that they would try to start the league and broadcast it with out the license to do so. It's called for I would think OGN would be smart enough to see this coming if they start the league
Blizzard is carrying out business like a world class business should.. OGn and Kespa are acting like somali pirates unfortunately for them korea has a ruling gov't.
OGN legally bought the rights to broadcast StarCraft from Hanbisoft, who worked under Blizzard.
I don't think Blizzard gave Hanbitsoft IP rights for SC/BW, only distributing rights.
Your response to my post, I don't think you understood what I meant. Some SC2 players have never played the original SC games, and even if they did, they probably didn't care about the features it has back then compared to what some features SC2 has. So while you think SC/BW is better than SC2, good for you, but those people love SC2 as much as you love SC/BW.
On November 05 2010 07:34 Pleiades wrote: The problem is, most progamers don't make 30k a year.
Your source? Flash earned 400 Mil won last year, his salary is about half that (the other half is price money).. It make sense that a lesser pro player would earn 1/10 of that. Unless you you can present evidence that suggest otherwise.
SC2: Only a few people earning money (about 100k/year max?). The rest get none. Housing? Food?
SC1: Only a few people earning big money (about 370k/year max? aka Flash's earning last year).. The rest get paid a significantly smaller amount (30k/year on average according to unverified sources).. Housing and food paid for..
How do some people can even say that there is more money to be had in GSL (sc2) is a mystery to me.
All these talks on working conditions and girlfriend is garbage, imo.. Its so far out of point that clearly people who mentioned this is only saying so in hope of making the other side look more negative.. And in case those need being addressed (some already are), Stork has gf (as mentioned by someone else) and Light pimp after games like nobody's business.
Regarding training time/working hour.. The standard training hour for A-teamers = 10 hours/day.. Any extra training is carried out under the player's own volition and fueled only by his desire to get better.. 10 hours/day is a VERY normal amount for working adults where i came from.. My friend who graduated from University recently now works as a trainee manager for Charles and Kleith, as well as a few others, works 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week.. It is much worse in places like Japan (average get-home time 9pm? o.O).. Just because in the US people get off work asap doesnt mean that culture applies everywhere in the world.. More to the point: the progamers' working condition isnt even close to being bad.. Plus getting to work towards ur dreams is a luxury enjoyed by few.. Most wither away behind a generic office table.
Since more discussions and analogies and such wont be appreciated by most.. I would just express my hope that Blizzard fail to exert their dominance and that the e-Sport scene will continue to flourish.
PS: For the guys that claims that SC2 is a great game.. Sorry to offend, but in my honest opinion you are likely newbies to the gaming scene to be able to pass SC2 off as "great".. If you can, you can look up (or try playing) their older products and list down on paper their pros, cons and features of innovation, you will be able to see for yourself the general trend of quality in their releases. For a quick reference, SC:BW and Diablo2 was legendary, WC3 + TFT was good, SC2 is ... Also many seem to consider The Burning Crusade to be much better than Wrath of the Lich King.
Us guys including the clan Teamliquid (Ret, Nazgul), Boxer, Nada, JulyZerg, and 95% of the people that visit this site now are following a crap game.
Of course, it is objective. And I feel sorry that you can't see both sides of the field. How elitist can you get.
There are arguments of whether Blizzard is playing the bully role here, but KeSPA's behavior is just adding fuel to that fire. They've been extremely childish in their "we hate you blizzard" kind of things. There was a huge dispute in 2007 over the original GSL leagues in which KeSPA refused to have the GSL matches be official which left a lot of teams to ditch it because it wasn't for official rank. In short, KeSPA contributed a lot (if not the sole reason) to the death of the original GSL Classic leagues.
I think that foreigners and the old Pros moving to SC2 is not related with the quality of the game but money, If I were a top foreigner that wont be able to compete even with some average A-teamer in BW and have no regular tournaments outside Korea, I will move, and almost the same apply to Boxer, Nada and July, Boxer is and "old" man now for being a top BW player so it was a very right choice to move to SC2 (He is the main figure), but remember it is about money. I have seen and playing several RTS games and I cant say that SC2 is shit, It is a good RTS game with all the hype that makes people interesting in it and the most important: Sponsors throwing money in tournaments, but right now is far from BW. + Show Spoiler +
I just saw Capoch beating TT1 with one strategy (lol), go go Capoch
No one is arguing over IP rights. Everyone acknowledges that Blizzard has control over broadcasting rights. However, the part that ticks people off is the methodology Blizzard employs to regulate e-sports.
For 7 years, Blizzard did NOTHING about SC/BW e-sports. They silently watched while various organizations in Korea took their product and turned it into a multi-million dollar industry, which in turn also bolstered Blizzard's status. While Blizzard has had positive labels in the past, it wasn't until Starcraft came along and became an e-sports that Blizzard was deemed as a heavyweight in the gaming industry.
Further success with WC3 and WoW cemented Blizzard's status as a top dog. They have all the money in the world now, but here they are, 10 years later, demanding money from MBC and OGN. Why didn't they do it 10 years ago? Because the exposure HELPED Blizzard. It's a complete bitch move on Blizzard's part.
Bad idea to make a poll, people have made them in the past, and it increases negativity on both sides. Besides, Activision-Blizzard and Gretech have already moved on with this, so we can only sit back and watch now.
On November 05 2010 07:34 Pleiades wrote: The problem is, most progamers don't make 30k a year.
Your source? Flash earned 400 Mil won last year, his salary is about half that (the other half is price money).. It make sense that a lesser pro player would earn 1/10 of that. Unless you you can present evidence that suggest otherwise.
SC2: Only a few people earning money (about 100k/year max?). The rest get none. Housing? Food?
SC1: Only a few people earning big money (about 370k/year max? aka Flash's earning last year).. The rest get paid a significantly smaller amount (30k/year on average according to unverified sources).. Housing and food paid for..
How do some people can even say that there is more money to be had in GSL (sc2) is a mystery to me.
All these talks on working conditions and girlfriend is garbage, imo.. Its so far out of point that clearly people who mentioned this is only saying so in hope of making the other side look more negative.. And in case those need being addressed (some already are), Stork has gf (as mentioned by someone else) and Light pimp after games like nobody's business.
Regarding training time/working hour.. The standard training hour for A-teamers = 10 hours/day.. Any extra training is carried out under the player's own volition and fueled only by his desire to get better.. 10 hours/day is a VERY normal amount for working adults where i came from.. My friend who graduated from University recently now works as a trainee manager for Charles and Kleith, as well as a few others, works 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week.. It is much worse in places like Japan (average get-home time 9pm? o.O).. Just because in the US people get off work asap doesnt mean that culture applies everywhere in the world.. More to the point: the progamers' working condition isnt even close to being bad.. Plus getting to work towards ur dreams is a luxury enjoyed by few.. Most wither away behind a generic office table.
Since more discussions and analogies and such wont be appreciated by most.. I would just express my hope that Blizzard fail to exert their dominance and that the e-Sport scene will continue to flourish.
PS: For the guys that claims that SC2 is a great game.. Sorry to offend, but in my honest opinion you are likely newbies to the gaming scene to be able to pass SC2 off as "great".. If you can, you can look up (or try playing) their older products and list down on paper their pros, cons and features of innovation, you will be able to see for yourself the general trend of quality in their releases. For a quick reference, SC:BW and Diablo2 was legendary, WC3 + TFT was good, SC2 is ... Also many seem to consider The Burning Crusade to be much better than Wrath of the Lich King.
Us guys including the clan Teamliquid (Ret, Nazgul), Boxer, Nada, JulyZerg, and 95% of the people that visit this site now are following a crap game.
Of course, it is objective. And I feel sorry that you can't see both sides of the field. How elitist can you get.
I watch the GSL and play SC2 but just throwing it out there but there are actual reasons why they're playing SC2 beyond "it is a good game".
I think Boxer, Nada, and July made it clear from comments and shit that because they couldn't compete in the current Brood War environment, they had to make the switch to actually get any play time. Same goes for the foreigners and its likely the reason why a lot of people are supporting the game (especially the whole Go Blizzard/Kill Kespa movement - they're right for the wrong reasons generally) for nationalistic reasons.
TLO support is understandable but the only reason Idra has as much support as he has is because he's well probably the most successful white guy, not really because his play is inspiring or if he's actually funny and BM (he isn't, he was kind of BM and funny in BW but in SC2 he's as mild as plain milk). BM shit is like FBH throwing rice at you, playing music and dancing to it infront of you after crushing you, and nuke rushing you in a live progame.
On November 05 2010 07:34 Pleiades wrote: The problem is, most progamers don't make 30k a year.
Your source? Flash earned 400 Mil won last year, his salary is about half that (the other half is price money).. It make sense that a lesser pro player would earn 1/10 of that. Unless you you can present evidence that suggest otherwise.
SC2: Only a few people earning money (about 100k/year max?). The rest get none. Housing? Food?
SC1: Only a few people earning big money (about 370k/year max? aka Flash's earning last year).. The rest get paid a significantly smaller amount (30k/year on average according to unverified sources).. Housing and food paid for..
How do some people can even say that there is more money to be had in GSL (sc2) is a mystery to me.
All these talks on working conditions and girlfriend is garbage, imo.. Its so far out of point that clearly people who mentioned this is only saying so in hope of making the other side look more negative.. And in case those need being addressed (some already are), Stork has gf (as mentioned by someone else) and Light pimp after games like nobody's business.
Regarding training time/working hour.. The standard training hour for A-teamers = 10 hours/day.. Any extra training is carried out under the player's own volition and fueled only by his desire to get better.. 10 hours/day is a VERY normal amount for working adults where i came from.. My friend who graduated from University recently now works as a trainee manager for Charles and Kleith, as well as a few others, works 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week.. It is much worse in places like Japan (average get-home time 9pm? o.O).. Just because in the US people get off work asap doesnt mean that culture applies everywhere in the world.. More to the point: the progamers' working condition isnt even close to being bad.. Plus getting to work towards ur dreams is a luxury enjoyed by few.. Most wither away behind a generic office table.
Since more discussions and analogies and such wont be appreciated by most.. I would just express my hope that Blizzard fail to exert their dominance and that the e-Sport scene will continue to flourish.
PS: For the guys that claims that SC2 is a great game.. Sorry to offend, but in my honest opinion you are likely newbies to the gaming scene to be able to pass SC2 off as "great".. If you can, you can look up (or try playing) their older products and list down on paper their pros, cons and features of innovation, you will be able to see for yourself the general trend of quality in their releases. For a quick reference, SC:BW and Diablo2 was legendary, WC3 + TFT was good, SC2 is ... Also many seem to consider The Burning Crusade to be much better than Wrath of the Lich King.
He's right you know. There are very few progamers in the entire world that make over 100k a year through gaming. Just because Flash makes that much doesn't make his assumption completely wrong. Its just a fact that MOST 96%+ of gamers don't make over 100k a year playing videogames.
Then theres the whole grinding you call "fun" for working as a pro-gamer. You honestly believe these guys are having fun having to play 10-12 hours a day? It becomes a chore. Just because they get food and a place to sleep doesn't mean they love it. They are all looking for the big payout but it looks like Korea has made BW 'pro-gamers' into a sweatshop business. It's almost why you hardly see any emotion during the BW scene pre sc2. Kudos I say to Blizzard for shutting it down. Videogames shouldn't be for everyone and they shouldn't be an option for society to turn to as a "job."
It's so enjoyable watching the GSL right now and watching its development. So much character, people are actually having fun, especially with the gamble. Starcraft2 saved the pro-gamer.
On November 05 2010 07:34 Pleiades wrote: The problem is, most progamers don't make 30k a year.
Your source? Flash earned 400 Mil won last year, his salary is about half that (the other half is price money).. It make sense that a lesser pro player would earn 1/10 of that. Unless you you can present evidence that suggest otherwise.
SC2: Only a few people earning money (about 100k/year max?). The rest get none. Housing? Food?
SC1: Only a few people earning big money (about 370k/year max? aka Flash's earning last year).. The rest get paid a significantly smaller amount (30k/year on average according to unverified sources).. Housing and food paid for..
How do some people can even say that there is more money to be had in GSL (sc2) is a mystery to me.
All these talks on working conditions and girlfriend is garbage, imo.. Its so far out of point that clearly people who mentioned this is only saying so in hope of making the other side look more negative.. And in case those need being addressed (some already are), Stork has gf (as mentioned by someone else) and Light pimp after games like nobody's business.
Regarding training time/working hour.. The standard training hour for A-teamers = 10 hours/day.. Any extra training is carried out under the player's own volition and fueled only by his desire to get better.. 10 hours/day is a VERY normal amount for working adults where i came from.. My friend who graduated from University recently now works as a trainee manager for Charles and Kleith, as well as a few others, works 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week.. It is much worse in places like Japan (average get-home time 9pm? o.O).. Just because in the US people get off work asap doesnt mean that culture applies everywhere in the world.. More to the point: the progamers' working condition isnt even close to being bad.. Plus getting to work towards ur dreams is a luxury enjoyed by few.. Most wither away behind a generic office table.
Since more discussions and analogies and such wont be appreciated by most.. I would just express my hope that Blizzard fail to exert their dominance and that the e-Sport scene will continue to flourish.
PS: For the guys that claims that SC2 is a great game.. Sorry to offend, but in my honest opinion you are likely newbies to the gaming scene to be able to pass SC2 off as "great".. If you can, you can look up (or try playing) their older products and list down on paper their pros, cons and features of innovation, you will be able to see for yourself the general trend of quality in their releases. For a quick reference, SC:BW and Diablo2 was legendary, WC3 + TFT was good, SC2 is ... Also many seem to consider The Burning Crusade to be much better than Wrath of the Lich King.
I love posts like these. Games been out 4 months and tournaments are paying out 100k. There's no league yet for SC2 so there cannoy be salaried players. But, look at how many "small" SC2 tournaments are out there. Comparing a salaried league vs prize winning tournaments is a joke argument. And as for your "PS" claim... you're blinding yourself by your own prejudice. Yes, D2 is legendary. Broodwar, if it wasn't for Korea, would not be "Legendary" and in 10 years, SC2 will be called "Legendary" while SC3 threatens it.
Anyway, as to the purpose of this thread. Blizzard is doing what Blizzard thinks is best to protect IP rights. For those out there that honestly believe this is to kill the BW scene so SC2 erupts... HAHAHAHAHA. Blizzard has made a killing on SC2 release and inevitably the SC2 competitive scene will take off. Korean proleague will form under sc2. What Blizzard is doing is protecting themselves from losing THEIR GAME. It's not like this is football or basketball... Blizzard created the product and should have it protected. Plain and simple.
Now for those that claim "If it wasn't for BW success in Korea..." Are u kidding me? Blizzard success is not dependant on Korea Proleague. If you believe this, I feel bad for you. Did the BW proleague create SC2? I don't believe so. Blizzard was creating SC2 way before the Proleague scene really took off. They just failed at it early and then focused on Diablo and WoW before trying the SC2 project again. (Wasn't it called Ghost?)
DON'T POST POLLS AND FUCKING SPLIT THE COMMUNITY!!!!!
honestly,please don't.None of us know whats going to happen and there is no point in speculating...If blizzard PR was reading this they would care...unfortunately the only guys from blizzard who read these forums stick to the SC2 forums for balance because they are the balance team(aka the uncorrupt)
There are arguments for and against the pro-gaming scene now. At the end of they day, the progamers CHOSE their lifestyle, and CHOSE their profession.
You don't see anyone blaming toilet cleaners for doing their jobs. Besides, you have to play 10-12 hours a day because you don't want to lose to someone else who practices 10-12 hours a day.
Although it remains to be seen if Starcraft 2 will get the same amount of sponsorship as BW, I think it's premature to make any assumption for how much Starcraft 2 progamers will be getting. It hasn't finished its 2nd month, 2nd GSLtournament. What's interesting is the chances of progamers living in America.
Sigh I almost got to the end of this and then got too disgusted with the posts. Hoping for BW to continue. SCII and BW together I'm totally fine for. OGN can pay money if it needs to pay money, and some judge can set a reasonable amount. Then we can all be happy again.
On November 05 2010 07:34 Pleiades wrote: The problem is, most progamers don't make 30k a year.
Your source? Flash earned 400 Mil won last year, his salary is about half that (the other half is price money).. It make sense that a lesser pro player would earn 1/10 of that. Unless you you can present evidence that suggest otherwise.
SC2: Only a few people earning money (about 100k/year max?). The rest get none. Housing? Food?
SC1: Only a few people earning big money (about 370k/year max? aka Flash's earning last year).. The rest get paid a significantly smaller amount (30k/year on average according to unverified sources).. Housing and food paid for..
How do some people can even say that there is more money to be had in GSL (sc2) is a mystery to me.
All these talks on working conditions and girlfriend is garbage, imo.. Its so far out of point that clearly people who mentioned this is only saying so in hope of making the other side look more negative.. And in case those need being addressed (some already are), Stork has gf (as mentioned by someone else) and Light pimp after games like nobody's business.
Regarding training time/working hour.. The standard training hour for A-teamers = 10 hours/day.. Any extra training is carried out under the player's own volition and fueled only by his desire to get better.. 10 hours/day is a VERY normal amount for working adults where i came from.. My friend who graduated from University recently now works as a trainee manager for Charles and Kleith, as well as a few others, works 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week.. It is much worse in places like Japan (average get-home time 9pm? o.O).. Just because in the US people get off work asap doesnt mean that culture applies everywhere in the world.. More to the point: the progamers' working condition isnt even close to being bad.. Plus getting to work towards ur dreams is a luxury enjoyed by few.. Most wither away behind a generic office table.
Since more discussions and analogies and such wont be appreciated by most.. I would just express my hope that Blizzard fail to exert their dominance and that the e-Sport scene will continue to flourish.
PS: For the guys that claims that SC2 is a great game.. Sorry to offend, but in my honest opinion you are likely newbies to the gaming scene to be able to pass SC2 off as "great".. If you can, you can look up (or try playing) their older products and list down on paper their pros, cons and features of innovation, you will be able to see for yourself the general trend of quality in their releases. For a quick reference, SC:BW and Diablo2 was legendary, WC3 + TFT was good, SC2 is ... Also many seem to consider The Burning Crusade to be much better than Wrath of the Lich King.
I love posts like these. Games been out 4 months and tournaments are paying out 100k. There's no league yet for SC2 so there cannoy be salaried players. But, look at how many "small" SC2 tournaments are out there. Comparing a salaried league vs prize winning tournaments is a joke argument. And as for your "PS" claim... you're blinding yourself by your own prejudice. Yes, D2 is legendary. Broodwar, if it wasn't for Korea, would not be "Legendary" and in 10 years, SC2 will be called "Legendary" while SC3 threatens it.
Anyway, as to the purpose of this thread. Blizzard is doing what Blizzard thinks is best to protect IP rights. For those out there that honestly believe this is to kill the BW scene so SC2 erupts... HAHAHAHAHA. Blizzard has made a killing on SC2 release and inevitably the SC2 competitive scene will take off. Korean proleague will form under sc2. What Blizzard is doing is protecting themselves from losing THEIR GAME. It's not like this is football or basketball... Blizzard created the product and should have it protected. Plain and simple.
Now for those that claim "If it wasn't for BW success in Korea..." Are u kidding me? Blizzard success is not dependant on Korea Proleague. If you believe this, I feel bad for you. Did the BW proleague create SC2? I don't believe so. Blizzard was creating SC2 way before the Proleague scene really took off. They just failed at it early and then focused on Diablo and WoW before trying the SC2 project again. (Wasn't it called Ghost?)
Lol, dude, ghost was not StarCraft 2. It wasn't even an RTS. Also, they started working on SC2 after The Frozen Throne, and the proleague existed before that. So get your fucking facts straight, man.
Considering BoxeR getting a 200$k sponsorship from "I",as well as 250k+ for a team, this early. I think it's safe to say SC2 will profit just as much as BW, if not more.
I want Blizzard to get money for the amazing professional gaming scene their game has launched.
I also want these Korean pro-leagues to make money and not be bankrupt due to outrageous fees, as well as get the recognition for their accomplishments in the field of e-sports.
In the end, I just want to see a growing e-sports community. In my opinion, I think SC2 is a game that will inevitably replace its predecessor (go ahead and blast me for that, I know its coming), but that matters less than the desire to have a good, high quality, sustained pro-gaming scene.
E-sports still has a long way to go before being where us fans want it to be. Like it or not, the BW scene in Korea is not enough to satisfy a large and growing professional gaming community. Lawsuits like this only seem to hurt everyone and the fact that we're all wont to pick sides is just throwing fuel on the fire.
I love posts like these. Games been out 4 months and tournaments are paying out 100k. There's no league yet for SC2 so there cannoy be salaried players. But, look at how many "small" SC2 tournaments are out there. Comparing a salaried league vs prize winning tournaments is a joke argument.
Now for those that claim "If it wasn't for BW success in Korea..." Are u kidding me? Blizzard success is not dependant on Korea Proleague. If you believe this, I feel bad for you. Did the BW proleague create SC2? I don't believe so. Blizzard was creating SC2 way before the Proleague scene really took off. They just failed at it early and then focused on Diablo and WoW before trying the SC2 project again. (Wasn't it called Ghost?)
Again I like SC2 but there is a reason why there are decent sized SC2 tournaments - hardware companies like EVGA and Zotac or whatever can advertise through a maaaaaassive PC game launch and hopefully get people to buy their discrete graphics cards.
The launch was this massive because it was the sequal to that game that people making a living off in Korea. "Blizzard making balanced games" is a reputation the pro Brood War scene has given them; infact its the only "balanced" game they've (note: it was players like Savior and Flash who did the shit to make it "balanced") made to date.
lol the funny thing is, suppose blizz wins the case. which means OGN has to pay damage. however, the licensing rights was already assigned to Gretech, so OGN would be paying Gretech instead. but at the end of the day both Gretech and OGN is owned by CJ anyways.
I think blizzard is going to win. Its a business vs business matter and in any court in any case Blizzard is going to win.
If OGN and MBC did not make any profits from broadcasting, than Blizzard might loose, but since they are making a profit out of it, Blizzard is right to look for compensation.
Its dame basically as if Barcelona asks for television broadcast money from a TV station and they don't pay and continue broadcasting without consent from Barcelona, its just not possible.
On November 05 2010 11:17 thehitman wrote: I think blizzard is going to win. Its a business vs business matter and in any court in any case Blizzard is going to win.
If OGN and MBC did not make any profits from broadcasting, than Blizzard might loose, but since they are making a profit out of it, Blizzard is right to look for compensation.
Its dame basically as if Barcelona asks for television broadcast money from a TV station and they don't pay and continue broadcasting without consent from Barcelona, its just not possible.
Pretty sure that OGN and MBC didn't make any profits out of it. BUT the thing is really the sponsors of teams that made profits. SKT and Samsung probably made TONS of profits of SC.
Can anyone translate a well thought-out netizen response to this issue? Especially pertaining to the continued prevalence of BW? I'd really be interested to hear the Korean community's opinion on the continued existence of BW as an eSport.
On November 05 2010 02:14 Salv wrote: I haven't been following the Blizzard vs Kespa/OGN debate too closely, mostly because I never watched the Korean proscene to begin with, so I could care less what happens now, but from a legal standpoint, does Blizzard not have every right to do this? I mean, pushing aside whether or not it screws over the fans, and whether or not Blizzard benefited from Kespa making the game so popular, the fact is that Blizzard does own the game, and you cannot broadcast it without their consent no? Or is that the debate going on right now?
IP rights aren't that cut and dry. Yeah Blizzard made the game, but to what extent should that give them control over an entire e-sport? It's arguable that BW as an e-sport is the creation of progamers and the like, and Blizz should have no jurisdiction over that. That's what most of the debate is about.
I'm still completely neutral on all of the BS thats been going on between Blizzard and KeSPA and all that jazz. To be honest, I think they are both acting like blithering idiots. The Brood War scene wasn't as near and dear to my heart as most TL users express in these kind of threads, but its sad to see such a great televised eSport slowly die. I play SC2 because, honestly, I got into competitive 1v1 on Brood War far too late to really be competitive and not burn out because I was only D+ for the year I tried to play. So, I'm just going to enjoy SC2 for what it is and hopefully it can rise up from Brood War's ashes into something great, especially with players like NaDa and BoxeR hitting the scene.
As previous tip-top developers have demonstrated, "boycotting" doesn't seem to work well, so I feel people complaining should just give it a shot instead of being left in the dark when Brood War finally crumbles at the professional level, as it is inevitable, regardless of what Blizzard says about wanting to keep it alive. Lawsuits are probably going to go in Blizzard's favor, in my opinion.
Anyhow, best of luck to hopefully finding some sort of resolution to keep Brood War alive for a couple more years, but I'm not sure KeSPA and Blizzard are up to the task at this point.
I'm sure this is legit, but the facts seem skewed to me. If nobody but GOM can broadcast, why does MLG broadcast events? There are countless others, to be sure, but that one jumped out at me.
On November 05 2010 02:14 Salv wrote: I haven't been following the Blizzard vs Kespa/OGN debate too closely, mostly because I never watched the Korean proscene to begin with, so I could care less what happens now, but from a legal standpoint, does Blizzard not have every right to do this? I mean, pushing aside whether or not it screws over the fans, and whether or not Blizzard benefited from Kespa making the game so popular, the fact is that Blizzard does own the game, and you cannot broadcast it without their consent no? Or is that the debate going on right now?
IP rights aren't that cut and dry. Yeah Blizzard made the game, but to what extent should that give them control over an entire e-sport? It's arguable that BW as an e-sport is the creation of progamers and the like, and Blizz should have no jurisdiction over that. That's what most of the debate is about.
People should stop ignoring good posts like this.
Its not that great of a post. The NFL owns anything NFL related, including all broadcast rights. If you want to create a spinoff, you need to invest the money to create your own game. What this means, is that if KeSPA wants to continue on with BW, they need to create their own version of BW.
On November 05 2010 11:37 Kogut wrote: I'm sure this is legit, but the facts seem skewed to me. If nobody but GOM can broadcast, why does MLG broadcast events? There are countless others, to be sure, but that one jumped out at me.
On November 05 2010 11:37 Kogut wrote: I'm sure this is legit, but the facts seem skewed to me. If nobody but GOM can broadcast, why does MLG broadcast events? There are countless others, to be sure, but that one jumped out at me.
GOM owns korean broadcast. I believe MLG owns american broadcast, as I havent seen any other event in NA (or there may not be one for america yet, as there are no channels for SC... I think internet broadcasts may be different too)
It's always sad to see things like this happen. No one would have been playing Starcraft in 2008 if there wasn't a competitive scene for it. The reason that SC1 still sells copies today is indirectly because of the actions of these Korean leagues. Activision/Blizzard can only see the short term profit involved in controlling/charging these leagues. They don't understand that these actions are threatening the long term health of their game.
On November 05 2010 11:42 TurtlePerson2 wrote: It's always sad to see things like this happen. No one would have been playing Starcraft in 2008 if there wasn't a competitive scene for it. The reason that SC1 still sells copies today is indirectly because of the actions of these Korean leagues. Activision/Blizzard can only see the short term profit involved in controlling/charging these leagues. They don't understand that these actions are threatening the long term health of their game.
Then you realize this wouldnt be happening if they had just cooperated in the first place. Initial demands from blizzard were pretty small, but KeSPA ignored them.
I don't even care which company profits from what. I just want to be able to stay up absurdly late, join a livechat, and talk with others while watching streams of proleague / osl / msl. Honestly that's the highlight of my life right now, and has been for about a year.
EDIT: Canucks, your translations have been amazing. I hope TL rewards you in some kind of way. You've really spent so much effort helping foreigner Starcraft fans understand issues/interviews/etc.
I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind.
On November 05 2010 12:09 nickycakes wrote: I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind.
And what exactly is blizzard doing it for? Has blizzard proven they are good at developing stable long-lasting esports leagues?
How is WoW e-sports doing now after the initial hype of it all?
On November 05 2010 12:09 nickycakes wrote: I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind.
Yes,I am blind...see my name.KeSPA cannot start a league in SC2 as easy as you say it is because has complete control of SC2 and can just ban the battle.net accounts of KeSPA is they choose to run those tournaments.They don't want Blizzard to have complete control of BW too because,and lets face it,Blizzard doesn't know shit about how to run a successful E-Sport(GOM might know but they are still 'meh' compared to KeSPA and the broadcasting companies).
On November 05 2010 11:47 mierin wrote: I don't even care which company profits from what. I just want to be able to stay up absurdly late, join a livechat, and talk with others while watching streams of proleague / osl / msl. Honestly that's the highlight of my life right now, and has been for about a year.
EDIT: Canucks, your translations have been amazing. I hope TL rewards you in some kind of way. You've really spent so much effort helping foreigner Starcraft fans understand issues/interviews/etc.
Thanks, posts like yours make my work a whole lot easier
On November 05 2010 12:09 nickycakes wrote: I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind.
And what exactly is blizzard doing it for? Has blizzard proven they are good at developing stable long-lasting esports leagues?
How is WoW e-sports doing now after the initial hype of it all?
lol... WoW was never meant to be an e-sport, so what's the point of mentioning it?
Blizzard made StarCraft = Blizzard owns the rights to StarCraft. I don't see how people can argue against this? Do people really think that OGN can't afford to buy the rights to broadcast?! They know that they are breaking the law... they just think that they can get away with it.
If I become a more competent programmer, I would volunteer thousands of hours of my time to create a free to play, balanced clone of Starcraft 2 and allowed tournaments to be played and broadcasted without the hassle of licensing or fees. This is because I care about e-sports.
Blizzard is really overextending with their arm of law. Ever since Actiblizzard, their views on everything is only to see what works for them, instead of seeing that what works for the player will work for them better.
On November 05 2010 12:09 nickycakes wrote: I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind.
No the fact that SC2 needs to be on battle.net for multiplayer is more than enough leverage to stop Kespa SC2 (they would directly be using property Blizzard is currently paying for w/o their consent).
If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily.
And an SC2 league would be bad why? Things would be easier if Blizzard could be happy with the free advertising from having a successful league of people playing their game at a high level.
But shareholders see pie, they want a slice, and they're used to big WoW sized pieces. Hopefully things will sort out and SC2 will grow strong leagues even with the fees.
So because OGN bought 1 license and then decided to not buy another theyve pretty much agreed that gretech has rights and then tried to say no they dont really? Sounds like therye screwed.
On November 05 2010 12:09 nickycakes wrote: I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind.
And what exactly is blizzard doing it for? Has blizzard proven they are good at developing stable long-lasting esports leagues?
How is WoW e-sports doing now after the initial hype of it all?
Considering the relatively poor balance of WoW and the fact that PvP was actually an afterthought originally... and I would say quite well. I mean... seriously... PvP wasnt officially supported or balanced for a REALLY long time, it was just sort of in the game (even now, its not really balanced). Then add in that its an MMO and not an FPS/RTS and its doing even better. Can you name another game of its genre that is doing as well as WoW? Do you see D2/lineage/final fantasy/everquest sponsored fights?
Ist billzzard very greedy and each champaign have to add more money to buy.. 2nd sc2 have no lan games and this is what i hate a game no lan games, 3rd u wanna sue every broadcasting with kespa and u wanna kill bw sc1... so now i hope KOREA BAN STARCRAFT II STOP using their product to play
I hope this kinda bullshit just gets thrown right back into blizzards face. They're being bullies, and reaping the benefits of what others accomplished. And I was raised to hate bullies and make sure they didn't get up from a fight. Just because you have the right to be a genuine assclown doesn't mean you should be. Blizzard is out of line here. To reiterate, they did nothing for the scene 10 years, and now all of a sudden, they care. Because they're a caring company and not greedy douche rockets. It's a shame because if instead of it being blizzard, it were people doing that, they would get the shit knocked out of them, but seeing as how they're a company, it's a bit harder to target individuals and knock some sense into them.
/rage off.
no but seriously, i hope koreans win. They're much better than us.
On November 05 2010 12:09 nickycakes wrote: I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind.
And what exactly is blizzard doing it for? Has blizzard proven they are good at developing stable long-lasting esports leagues?
How is WoW e-sports doing now after the initial hype of it all?
lol... WoW was never meant to be an e-sport, so what's the point of mentioning it?
Blizzard made StarCraft = Blizzard owns the rights to StarCraft. I don't see how people can argue against this? Do people really think that OGN can't afford to buy the rights to broadcast?! They know that they are breaking the law... they just think that they can get away with it.
Is SC2 meant to be an esport, and by meant, I mean, does blizzard prioritize competitive SC2 over all other aspects of SC2?
They obviously do not only balance for top level play (as they themselves have said)
The bottom line is it doesn't matter what was "meant" to be an e-sport or not, the fact is blizzard realized it could cash in on WoW as an e-sport (and by cashing in I mean charging a few leagues to run wow tourneys and then getting advertising from it pretty much) and they threw it out there as an e-sport even though PvE balance always held much higher priority since the majority of their players are PvErs.
It is because blizzard does not prioritize esports, that they can not be given the monopoly on big e-sport games.
If you want e-sports to progress, it needs to be in the hands of people who genuinely care about it's development. To blizzard it is just a minor gimmick to appeal to another demograph, get some advertising out there, and maybe make a little money off any big leagues that might want to pick their games up as esports.
On November 05 2010 12:09 nickycakes wrote: I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind.
And what exactly is blizzard doing it for? Has blizzard proven they are good at developing stable long-lasting esports leagues?
How is WoW e-sports doing now after the initial hype of it all?
Considering the relatively poor balance of WoW and the fact that PvP was actually an afterthought originally... and I would say quite well. I mean... seriously... PvP wasnt officially supported or balanced for a REALLY long time, it was just sort of in the game (even now, its not really balanced). Then add in that its an MMO and not an FPS/RTS and its doing even better. Can you name another game of its genre that is doing as well as WoW? Do you see D2/lineage/final fantasy/everquest sponsored fights?
The reason you don't see other mmos travel the e-sports route is because they know they aren't designed for that type of gameplay, so they don't attempt it halfheartedly.
Blizzard doesn't care about wow as an esport, yet they found some ways to make money off of the concept of that so they milked it a little.
If you've played arena through the seasons and seen some of the atrocious states of balance you would know how little esports mattered to blizzard.
Or you could just watch the wizard cleave tournaments and fall asleep as many matches go to the max time limit.
On November 05 2010 05:47 orgolove wrote: It's so funny. 99% of Korean netizens support Blizzard and disparage KeSPA. 99% of foreigners here support KeSPA and disparage Blizzard.
I think it's because koreans understand what KeSPA has been doing, who they are and why Blizzard are suing. I don't think this situation is as easy as "Blizzard made sc2 so they sue everyone broadcasting BW so they could broadcast sc2"
On November 05 2010 08:21 ffreakk wrote: SC2: Only a few people earning money (about 100k/year max?). The rest get none. Housing? Food?
Teams on current Sc2 market operate differently because there is no KeSPA.
Team oGs, tsl and teamliquid earn money from their sponsors, got housing and food.
Teams like EG just pay gamers money depending on how good they perform. Oh and I heard they want to expand and make a teamhouse in Korea just for GSL.
gosh, i feel like such a corporate shill for siding with blizzard here, but i have yet to read/hear anything compelling enough to make me feel like all the korean leagues are doing anything besides playing the victim after violating ip laws
i wonder if this attitude is just a disconnect between people who try to create something for a living and people who primarily consume things for a living, though
On November 05 2010 14:02 benjammin wrote: gosh, i feel like such a corporate shill for siding with blizzard here, but i have yet to read/hear anything compelling enough to make me feel like all the korean leagues are doing anything besides playing the victim after violating ip laws
i wonder if this attitude is just a disconnect between people who try to create something for a living and people who primarily consume things for a living, though
There is more than 1 story to the argument...I'm still waiting for KeSPA to release their statement.
all in all...I don't think its going to end as badly as people say it will.
Then again...What do I know?
On November 05 2010 13:27 CraftKings wrote: Ist billzzard very greedy and each champaign have to add more money to buy.. 2nd sc2 have no lan games and this is what i hate a game no lan games, 3rd u wanna sue every broadcasting with kespa and u wanna kill bw sc1... so now i hope KOREA BAN STARCRAFT II STOP using their product to play
Welcome to teamliquid,please don't post in this thread until you have a good understanding of the situation or people might just flame you.
On November 05 2010 12:09 nickycakes wrote: I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind.
And what exactly is blizzard doing it for? Has blizzard proven they are good at developing stable long-lasting esports leagues?
How is WoW e-sports doing now after the initial hype of it all?
lol... WoW was never meant to be an e-sport, so what's the point of mentioning it?
Blizzard made StarCraft = Blizzard owns the rights to StarCraft. I don't see how people can argue against this? Do people really think that OGN can't afford to buy the rights to broadcast?! They know that they are breaking the law... they just think that they can get away with it.
Is SC2 meant to be an esport, and by meant, I mean, does blizzard prioritize competitive SC2 over all other aspects of SC2?
Yes. It was developed from the very beginning to be an esport, they even had very high end players help them along the way in their balancing and developing of the game. They dont make changes to the game that would negatively effect the main 1v1 aspects of the game. In fact, there have only been 1-2 changes made specifically for other aspects of SC2 (reaper speed requiring factory) and it doesnt really change 1v1 that heavily.
On November 05 2010 12:09 nickycakes wrote: I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind.
And what exactly is blizzard doing it for? Has blizzard proven they are good at developing stable long-lasting esports leagues?
How is WoW e-sports doing now after the initial hype of it all?
Considering the relatively poor balance of WoW and the fact that PvP was actually an afterthought originally... and I would say quite well. I mean... seriously... PvP wasnt officially supported or balanced for a REALLY long time, it was just sort of in the game (even now, its not really balanced). Then add in that its an MMO and not an FPS/RTS and its doing even better. Can you name another game of its genre that is doing as well as WoW? Do you see D2/lineage/final fantasy/everquest sponsored fights?
The reason you don't see other mmos travel the e-sports route is because they know they aren't designed for that type of gameplay, so they don't attempt it halfheartedly.
Blizzard doesn't care about wow as an esport, yet they found some ways to make money off of the concept of that so they milked it a little.
If you've played arena through the seasons and seen some of the atrocious states of balance you would know how little esports mattered to blizzard.
Or you could just watch the wizard cleave tournaments and fall asleep as many matches go to the max time limit.
My point was that despite the fact that MMO's are not popular as an esports game, and people generally dont play them (or watch them) for the esports aspect, they have gotten a large following that do like to watch it.
If they can do that much with something that was designed from the ground up to NOT be an esport, and can then promote a single aspect of it as an esport and it be relatively popular... then imagine what they can do with a game that was designed to be one...
I have known some of the atrocious states of balance, but I also know that its nearly impossible to balance for, and yet they do try (or have tried for a long while).
Regardless of this, I will let the views of the GSL be an indicator of how well SC2 is doing as an esport already. 3 million have already watched boxer vs nada (excluding live views) 2 million watched the finals from S1 (excluding live views) since the RO32 each game has been averaging 500k views on the VOD (excluding live views) boxer/nada pull in on average 1.5 million views (excluding live views)
Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...)
On November 05 2010 14:02 benjammin wrote: gosh, i feel like such a corporate shill for siding with blizzard here, but i have yet to read/hear anything compelling enough to make me feel like all the korean leagues are doing anything besides playing the victim after violating ip laws
i wonder if this attitude is just a disconnect between people who try to create something for a living and people who primarily consume things for a living, though
There is more than 1 story to the argument...I'm still waiting for KeSPA to release their statement.
all in all...I don't think its going to end as badly as people say it will.
On November 05 2010 13:27 CraftKings wrote: Ist billzzard very greedy and each champaign have to add more money to buy.. 2nd sc2 have no lan games and this is what i hate a game no lan games, 3rd u wanna sue every broadcasting with kespa and u wanna kill bw sc1... so now i hope KOREA BAN STARCRAFT II STOP using their product to play
Welcome to teamliquid,please don't post in this thread until you have a good understanding of the situation or people might just flame you.
I especially like his champaign touch with all the non-sense mixed in... keeps it quite fresh
On November 05 2010 12:09 nickycakes wrote: I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind.
Except that, you know, SC2 requires battle.net and blizzard could just have maintenance whenever KESPA wants to do a SC2 tournament
Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...)
I don't remember the source but the TV ratings was along the lines of 1.2mil or so?I don't remember the source.
Blizzard is entitled to their fair share of the money being made off BW, but I'd really like it if there were some rules and regulations (or at least logic) in place that dictated how much that "fair share" equates to. Because as justified as they are to demand KeSPA purchase broadcasting rights for their IP, it would ruin everybody's day if they demand so much it destroys the BW scene.
Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...)
I don't remember the source but the TV ratings was along the lines of 1.2mil or so?I don't remember the source.
That means that SC2 is already more popular in korea then... which to me would be pretty shocking if true o.o
Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...)
I don't remember the source but the TV ratings was along the lines of 1.2mil or so?I don't remember the source.
That means that SC2 is already more popular in korea then... which to me would be pretty shocking if true o.o
I was talking about the TV ratings for KA OSL S2....500k is the internet stream ratings.
I don't understand the Blizzard hate. All these unfounded claims that Blizzard stalls negotiations and has unreasonable demands?
What, exactly, are the unreasonable demands that you're all speaking of?
If the demands are so unreasonable, why was GomTV / GSL able to reach an agreement so easily and run successfully?
From what I can see Blizzard wants multiple leagues to co-exist, they even say that in the original post! OGN/Kespa just need to agree to the same terms that GomTV did. It seems they're the ones being unreasonable.
The only argument I continue to see is "BW has gone on like this for so long, why start now?". The obvious answer is SC2. They want to protect SC2, and if a company is allowed to broadcast starcraft BW illegally, what's to stop them from broadcasting SC2 illegally? SC2 is the future, hell it's already the present but most of you don't want to admit it.
The bottom line here is Kespa/OGN used to make X dollars by broadcasting illegally. If they legally broadcast, they're going to make (X - licensing fees) dollars. They don't like this, and they want to continue making X, and nothing less then X.
If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2.
On November 05 2010 08:21 ffreakk wrote: SC2: Only a few people earning money (about 100k/year max?). The rest get none. Housing? Food?
Boxer is being sponsored by Intel to effectively make a pro team of his own, and he is being paid $180,000 personally with $270,000 initially to fund the team.
This team is just the beginning. Already TSL, oGs, Prime, Zenex, etc. all have sponsorships that seem to be doing a lot more for their players than we currently know publicly. (Source)
And before you argue viewers, it looks like Boxer vs Nada received 2.9 million independent views for the Korean video, most of which were most likely Korean (Source)
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On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote: If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2.
The EULA of the two products are very, very different. The reason you pay so stinking much for Photoshop (it's in the hundreds of dollars, $700-$1,000) is so that you have the rights to anything you create within it for your own use. Comparing Starcraft to Photoshop is inaccurate. Although both are pieces of software, they are very very different.
Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...)
I don't remember the source but the TV ratings was along the lines of 1.2mil or so?I don't remember the source.
That means that SC2 is already more popular in korea then... which to me would be pretty shocking if true o.o
I was talking about the TV ratings for KA OSL S2....500k is the internet stream ratings.
I know, 1.2 million TV views + 500k stream views = 1.7 million. 2.9 million (just in korea) watched boxer vs nada so far just through the stream, and it doesnt include live stream views.
Hell, 1.9 million watched the finals stream from S1, which is bigger than the TV + stream views that you are talking about.
On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote: If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2.
This is far from that. Photoshop is a tool, and most art derived from Photoshop is not dependent on it. Whereas maps, replays, broadcasted games are dependent on Starcraft programming.
Both of their legal agreements for using them are very different, because they are different software marketing different things.
I'll try to give you a better analogy, but it's very hard to compare anything to this situation.
I'm going to use DOTA. DOTA is a custom game/mod for WC3 based off of Aeon of Strife from SCBW. If the creator of these games decides not to use WC or SC as their platform to base their ideas and games upon, and uses a different platform or one created from the ground up. Does Blizzard have any legal right to DOTA / other games then?
IP laws create exclusive rights that allow owners of intellectual property to benefit from the property they have created. These provide a financial incentive for the creation of and investment in intellectual property. Companies such as Blizzard profit from the development of games that inthemselves hold patents and trademarks that are protected by law, and Blizzard is simply defending their rights to the use of the intellectual property that they created and own.
Imagine if you invented an awesome game that became insanely popular in another country, but you weren't making a cent from it. I know it seems like Blizzard is a greedy corporation - but they have rights to their intellectual property.
I do think though that blizzard is timing the legal proceedings in line with the growing popularity of starcarft 2, and if they succeed it is likely that they will use the rights to force starcraft 1 out of the Korean competitive scene.
In the end, if it is Blizzard's intelectually property by law then they have the right to manage its use as they see fit to increase their profits, however bitter starcraft 1 fans get. If Blizzard decides that there is still money to be made in licensing out tournaments to MBC etc then I can still see a competitive stracraft 1 scene in the foreseeable future. One thing is for certain though; Blizzard wants as much money as possible from the Korean market, and they're not afraid to play hardball to get it.
Ugh, I just realized my analogy sucked, but I said so anyways... Not even sure how close it is.
Anyways, if Blizzard/Gretech does win, technically they can still renegotiate with KeSPA, OGN, and MBC for new licenses, but it has to be on their terms or else no way they can be broadcasted in that jurisdiction.
On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote: If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2.
This is far from that. Photoshop is a tool, and most art derived from Photoshop is not dependent on it. Whereas maps, replays, broadcasted games are dependent on Starcraft programming.
Both of their legal agreements for using them are very different, because they are different software marketing different things.
I'll try to give you a better analogy, but it's very hard to compare anything to this situation.
I'm going to use DOTA. DOTA is a custom game/mod for WC3 based off of Aeon of Strife from SCBW. If the creator of these games decides not to use WC or SC as their platform to base their ideas and games upon, and uses a different platform or one created from the ground up. Does Blizzard have any legal right to DOTA / other games then?
Actually yes they do. That's why they're able to use the actual name "Blizzard DOTA" and not something else like League of Legends, or Heroes of Newerth.
On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote: If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2.
This is far from that. Photoshop is a tool, and most art derived from Photoshop is not dependent on it. Whereas maps, replays, broadcasted games are dependent on Starcraft programming.
Both of their legal agreements for using them are very different, because they are different software marketing different things.
I'll try to give you a better analogy, but it's very hard to compare anything to this situation.
I'm going to use DOTA. DOTA is a custom game/mod for WC3 based off of Aeon of Strife from SCBW. If the creator of these games decides not to use WC or SC as their platform to base their ideas and games upon, and uses a different platform or one created from the ground up. Does Blizzard have any legal right to DOTA / other games then?
Actually yes they do. That's why they're able to use the actual name "Blizzard DOTA" and not something else like League of Legends, or Heroes of Newerth.
Odd considering valve trademarked DotA and not blizzard then.
To continue what i said before - in our country, Starcraft costed about 18$ in recounting to usd from rubles. And it's with Brood War, not only original. Starcraft sequel is gonna cost about 120$-150$ if you take ALL three "parts" of it, that are gonna be released. I think it's a pretty unfair price. And with all that shit surrounding it and company being such the [bad people], there's less and less will to even think about buying it. Especially concerning the fact that SC1 is a better game, or, if SC2 better in anything, that's very small and unimportant, and WHY THE HELL GET NEW GAME, IF IT ONLY HAS THE SAME AS IN PREVIOUS AND HAS NOTHING REALLY NEW? and obviously made ONLY to draw money. While Starcraft obviously wasn't and had a "god's spark".
lololol. I think Blizzard already lost, because they're going too far so they have problems. I with all soul hope that it doesn't go without repay. These sorts of things never go so.
On November 05 2010 15:15 _Quasar_ wrote: To continue what i said before - in our country, Starcraft costed about 18$ in recounting to usd from rubles. And it's with Brood War, not only original. Starcraft sequel is gonna cost about 120$-150$ if you take ALL three "parts" of it, that are gonna be released. I think it's a pretty unfair price. And with all that shit surrounding it and company being such the [bad people], there's less and less will to even think about buying it. Especially concerning the fact that SC1 is a better game, or, if SC2 better in anything, that's very small and u
starcraft is an ancient game. All old games are cheaper than when they are new. I can get SC and BW for $15 online on the official blizzard store right now.
If you wait 10-15 years (or even 5 years after the final expansion is out) you can expect the price to be similarly cheap.
On November 05 2010 15:15 _Quasar_ wrote: To continue what i said before - in our country, Starcraft costed about 18$ in recounting to usd from rubles. And it's with Brood War, not only original. Starcraft sequel is gonna cost about 120$-150$ if you take ALL three "parts" of it, that are gonna be released. I think it's a pretty unfair price. And with all that shit surrounding it and company being such the [bad people], there's less and less will to even think about buying it. Especially concerning the fact that SC1 is a better game, or, if SC2 better in anything, that's very small and unimportant, and WHY THE HELL GET NEW GAME, IF IT ONLY HAS THE SAME AS IN PREVIOUS AND HAS NOTHING REALLY NEW? and obviously made ONLY to draw money. While Starcraft obviously wasn't and had a "god's spark".
My father paid $50-$60 USD for my first copy of SC for Christmas back in 1998, and $30-$40 for SC:BW for my Birthday in 1999. I cherish SC and BW because they were gifts from my father and they were the best games I have played back then. SC2 WoL will probably drop in price in a few years.
People are willing to spend money to play games that they think it's cool or like. I spent $200 on two collector's edition of WoL. I will say that comparing SC2 to the original, I like the original better, but SC2 by itself it is a very good game.
Just wondering. Would anyone here be OK with CJ pulling GSL off air? Because they have a lot of influence over GOM and it's their company and their right, after all.
Wouldn't that be similarly offensive to the SC2 folk here arguing that this is the natural order of things?
I'm not willing to sponsor some company that performs shit and not human-like actions. For example suing (or at least bothering) those who gave them their popularity, or releasing after 12 years a game without anything REALLY new.
I don't want to keep up with that tendency to release games only to draw money from fans, making tons of attractive glitter and nothing truly new, copying the good stuff from the older things. If that's your way, well ok, but it isnt mine. sorry.
On November 05 2010 15:33 mustaju wrote: Just wondering. Would anyone here be OK with CJ pulling GSL off air? Because they have a lot of influence over GOM and it's their company and their right, after all.
Wouldn't that be similarly offensive to the SC2 folk here arguing that this is the natural order of things?
I would be confused because there would be no real reason to pull it off the air.
On November 05 2010 15:33 mustaju wrote: Just wondering. Would anyone here be OK with CJ pulling GSL off air? Because they have a lot of influence over GOM and it's their company and their right, after all.
Wouldn't that be similarly offensive to the SC2 folk here arguing that this is the natural order of things?
I would be confused because there would be no real reason to pull it off the air.
Of course it would have a "reason". They are investing a lot of money and there is no surefire way of making sure they get enough back (unless the VOD business is really profitable). Sure it's "advertising", but both parties can pull childish antics - you screw us over, we screw you over. And taking it off air for just a month for "re-evaluation purposes" or something similar like that would definitely be screwing you over.
On November 05 2010 15:37 _Quasar_ wrote: I'm not willing to sponsor some company that performs shit and not human-like actions. For example suing (or at least bothering) those who gave them their popularity, or releasing after 12 years a game without anything REALLY new.
They are not suing the people that gave them their popularity. Believe it or not, in the grand scheme of things, BW is not that popular outside of korea. WoW, Halo, CoD and many other games are more popular outside korea. WoW makes them more money than anything imaginable.
I don't want to keep up with that tendency to release games only to draw money from fans, making tons of attractive glitter and nothing truly new, copying the good stuff from the older things. If that's your way, well ok, but it isnt mine. sorry.
People, yes people like you, demanded that blizzard make a sequel for SC. For YEARS people demanded it. They complained when war3 was made instead of SC2. They complained when WoW was made instead of SC2. Now, they make a great game, SC2 and you complain (and you are in the minority here) that they made it. You are just an angry person from what I can see, and with no logical reason to be angry.
I don't think BW leagues should be pulled, although it is simply my opinion that eventually SC2 will supplant it.
BW should continue as long as there are pro gamers willing to play and fans willing to watch. It should be as simple as that, but of course there is money involved.
From my perspective, limited as that may be, both sides have done things that kind of makes them look like dicks. I just want mommy and daddy to stop arguing so we can all eat dinner.
On November 05 2010 15:33 mustaju wrote: Just wondering. Would anyone here be OK with CJ pulling GSL off air? Because they have a lot of influence over GOM and it's their company and their right, after all.
Wouldn't that be similarly offensive to the SC2 folk here arguing that this is the natural order of things?
I would be confused because there would be no real reason to pull it off the air.
Of course it would have a "reason". They are investing a lot of money and there is no surefire way of making sure they get enough back (unless the VOD business is really profitable). Sure it's "advertising", but both parties can pull childish antics - you screw us over, we screw you over. And taking it off air for just a month for "re-evaluation purposes" or something similar like that would definitely be screwing you over.
It depends if CJ has Gretech's direct interest in doing so by the amount of shares they have. I don't know if CJ has enough stake in Gretech to change their direction on things, but even so, if the GSL is pulled, it wouldn't affect a lot of foreigners as it would Koreans compared to BW.
On November 05 2010 15:33 mustaju wrote: Just wondering. Would anyone here be OK with CJ pulling GSL off air? Because they have a lot of influence over GOM and it's their company and their right, after all.
Wouldn't that be similarly offensive to the SC2 folk here arguing that this is the natural order of things?
I would be confused because there would be no real reason to pull it off the air.
Of course it would have a "reason". They are investing a lot of money and there is no surefire way of making sure they get enough back (unless the VOD business is really profitable). Sure it's "advertising", but both parties can pull childish antics - you screw us over, we screw you over. And taking it off air for just a month for "re-evaluation purposes" or something similar like that would definitely be screwing you over.
It depends if CJ has Gretech's direct interest in doing so by the amount of shares they have. I don't know if CJ has enough stake in Gretech to change their direction on things, but even so, if the GSL is pulled, it wouldn't affect a lot of foreigners as it would Koreans compared to BW.
That's arguably also the case for BW. And then again, you are right on the whole "we don't know about CJ influence in GOM" if we trust Waxangel as a reliable source (and I do.)
What I am actually arguing is that what Blizzard is doing should not be considered morally perfectly acceptable because it's good for their business. Good for business can still screw us over.
On November 05 2010 15:44 zimz wrote: north korea should run osl and msl, i would like to see blizzard try to sue kim jong il. kim jong il can just respond by nuking the pacific ocean.
It depends on how many south korean progamers would risk going to north korea to participate.
I didn't need that sequel, to be honest. After it was released, I forgot about it and played SC:BW as always.
I think maximum sportive part is in the fact that SC is old and simple game, and all that matters - is the mastership of players. That is true sports.
You're not right - SC is enormously popular in Russia. Anyone plays it. I went to new job and found out that more than 50% of my new colleagues play it (STILL freaking play. When there is 12 years after!)
and with no logical reason to be angry.
it's a little bit trollish, dude. It seems you haven't read all that I write. I have a reason - the people who gave SC popularity - a hard to learn, strategic game - were korean gaming community. They raised it to the SPORTS status. And adrenaline and willing to compete is the only possible reason that i see to make this game SUCH popular. Otherwise it wouldn't go further than warcraft 2. Yes good, yes entertaining, but not too popular, and NOT living the freaking 12 years when people kept still occasionally spending money on it. And 11 WCG's with it! That's very huge.
Only Counter-Strike could beat that. And wait... why I don't hear any shit of that from Valve who "own" Half-Life? Maybe because it is POSSIBLE to be a normal company and normal people who make human-like actions?
So, I know that they owe their popularity to koreans. And they SHOULD NOT be taking such actions.
________
About SC2 - i would buy it, if thing were not that way, at least for the single campaign. And multiplayer - I am very doubting that without ALL THIS ACTIONS it would reach even a 25% of SC original's e-sportive degree. (and i doubt that even with them - it reaches even 50% of it.) And would be a little time after forgotten and descending to the status of WC3 - good but not too popular. And all who liked original SC would still play it, because there's where the true Fighting Spirit lies.
On November 05 2010 15:33 mustaju wrote: Just wondering. Would anyone here be OK with CJ pulling GSL off air? Because they have a lot of influence over GOM and it's their company and their right, after all.
Wouldn't that be similarly offensive to the SC2 folk here arguing that this is the natural order of things?
I would be confused because there would be no real reason to pull it off the air.
Of course it would have a "reason". They are investing a lot of money and there is no surefire way of making sure they get enough back (unless the VOD business is really profitable). Sure it's "advertising", but both parties can pull childish antics - you screw us over, we screw you over. And taking it off air for just a month for "re-evaluation purposes" or something similar like that would definitely be screwing you over.
It depends if CJ has Gretech's direct interest in doing so by the amount of shares they have. I don't know if CJ has enough stake in Gretech to change their direction on things, but even so, if the GSL is pulled, it wouldn't affect a lot of foreigners as it would Koreans compared to BW.
That's arguably also the case for BW. And then again, you are right on the whole "we don't know about CJ influence in GOM" if we trust Waxangel as a reliable source (and I do.)
What I am actually arguing is that what Blizzard is doing should not be considered morally perfectly acceptable because it's good for their business. Good for business can still screw us over.
Maybe what is actually happening here is that CJ no longer feels that BW can be profitable and thus wants to stop investing so much into it. So they use gretech/blizzard to shut it down and they save face.
On November 05 2010 15:44 zimz wrote: north korea should run osl and msl, i would like to see blizzard try to sue kim jong il. kim jong il can just respond by nuking the pacific ocean.
It depends on how many south korean progamers would risk going to north korea to participate.
AHHHAHAHAHA, Nuclear launch detected!!! :D
[ActiviSiOn]BliZzArd: gg Kim.Jong.iL: gg [ActiviSiOn]BliZzArd has left the game.
On November 05 2010 15:55 _Quasar_ wrote: I didn't need that sequel, to be honest. After it was released, I forgot about it and played SC:BW as always.
I think maximum sportive part is in the fact that SC is old and simple game, and all that matters - is the mastership of players. That is true sports.
You're not right - SC is enormously popular in Russia. Anyone plays it. I went to new job and found out that more than 50% of my new colleagues play it (STILL freaking play. When there is 12 years after!)
How many of your colleagues BOUGHT it? How many of your colleagues want to play SC2, but dont because they cant play through means that arent b.net? Sorry if this seems harsh, but word on the street is that russia is rampant with game piracy and SC2's bnet prevents (for now) piracy.
it's a little bit trollish, dude. It seems you haven't read all that I write. I have a reason - the people who gave SC popularity - a hard to learn, strategic game - were korean gaming community. They raised it to the SPORTS status. And adrenaline and willing to compete is the only possible reason that i see to make this game SUCH popular. Otherwise it wouldn't go further than warcraft 2. Yes good, yes entertaining, but not too popular, and NOT living the freaking 12 years when people kept still occasionally spending money on it. And 11 WCG's with it! That's very huge.
SC2 is equally hard to learn, the fact that its based on BW and the immense coverage it receives is the only reason it is advancing so quickly. If you want to see how rapidly its changing, look at some beta games (such as king of the beta tournament) and compare it to GSL S2... huge huge huge change in gameplay in just a few months.
Only Counter-Strike could beat that. And wait... why I don't hear any shit of that from Valve who "own" Half-Life? Maybe because it is POSSIBLE to be a normal company and normal people who make human-like actions?
People arent trying to sell CS broadcast rights or take ownership of the game. You also apparently dont know that CS caused huuuuuuuuuuuge outcry when valve put advertising in the game.
So, I know that they owe their popularity to koreans. And they SHOULD NOT be taking such actions.
No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success.
About SC2 - i would buy it, if thing were not that way, at least for the single campaign. And multiplayer - I am very doubting that without ALL THIS ACTIONS it would reach even a 25% of SC original's e-sportive degree. (and i doubt that even with them - it reaches even 50% of it.) And would be a little time after forgotten and descending to the status of WC3 - good but not too popular. And all who liked original SC would still play it, because there's where the true Fighting Spirit lies.
According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
On November 05 2010 15:44 zimz wrote: north korea should run osl and msl, i would like to see blizzard try to sue kim jong il. kim jong il can just respond by nuking the pacific ocean.
It depends on how many south korean progamers would risk going to north korea to participate.
I dunno. I rather watch MSL with poweroutage from vod than every year couple of times live.
No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success.
by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer
On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote: If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2.
This is far from that. Photoshop is a tool, and most art derived from Photoshop is not dependent on it. Whereas maps, replays, broadcasted games are dependent on Starcraft programming.
Both of their legal agreements for using them are very different, because they are different software marketing different things.
I'll try to give you a better analogy, but it's very hard to compare anything to this situation.
I'm going to use DOTA. DOTA is a custom game/mod for WC3 based off of Aeon of Strife from SCBW. If the creator of these games decides not to use WC or SC as their platform to base their ideas and games upon, and uses a different platform or one created from the ground up. Does Blizzard have any legal right to DOTA / other games then?
Actually yes they do. That's why they're able to use the actual name "Blizzard DOTA" and not something else like League of Legends, or Heroes of Newerth.
You are wrong. They have no rights to DotA whatsoever, thats probably why they got mad and invented the new system where they own all custom maps made by users, as well as trying to make a Blizzard DotA now.. The one with right to DotA right now is Valve, who is working with Icefrog, the current developer of DotA (the original creator was Guinsoo n Eul, but Icefrog is in charge now), they already filed a trademark for DotA (all the way to DotA 4).
They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality.
Thats true, i bought SC2 because SC1 was awesome (and cos my old friends want to play SC2 with me n talk crap about it over dinner). I will probably buy Diablo 3 cos Diablo 2 was awesome as well.. I wont buy SC3, for obvious reasons.
No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success.
by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer
This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all.
It is not small. Blizzard didn't get such enormous success in any strategic game except SC. This is the truth, and if you surpass it, it finally is repaid in the end. I don't advice to Blizzard to do so. =\
You forget WCG. Many were attracted by WCG to starcraft - and there'd be no WCG without koreans.
Anyway, you can always just get help from the ones who do help you, and then say "your help had no value" and just leave them behind. But this IS unjust. And for those who say that it's just - I wish someone backstabbed them in the similar way. Maybe then they would've understood. =\
No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success.
by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer
This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all.
I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction.
A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene.
The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it.
Ultimately Brood War is going to die and Starcraft 2 is going to overtake it. Blizzard can go sue Kespa I literally don't care about it because at the end of the day its two faceless corporations fighting for their own vested interests (not ours, if they cared about us both companies would have come to an agreement ages ago and Kespa would stop being stupid), and Gretech in the middle hoping MBC and OGN will go down so it can hold all of the cards.
On November 05 2010 16:27 _Quasar_ wrote: It is not small. Blizzard didn't get such enormous success in any strategic game except SC. This is the truth, and if you surpass it, it finally is repaid in the end. I don't advice to Blizzard to do so. =\
You forget WCG. Many were attracted by WCG to starcraft - and there'd be no WCG without koreans.
Anyway, you can always just get help from the ones who do help you, and then say "your help had no value" and just leave them behind. But this IS unjust. And for those who say that it's just - I wish someone backstabbed them in the similar way. Maybe then they would've understood. =\
Why do you focus on strategic games now? Are you finally realizing that the success of blizzard (you know, the company that makes more than just RTS games) did not hinge on SC?
WCG was originally a korean based tournament, so naturally BW would be the popular game. However, CS was quite popular as well (just not in korea) for WCG despite this.
Regardless of this, you have shown me no proof that blizzards success was because of korea. I mean, to me... 12 million active subscribers (ie: people paying $15 each month or whatever is the method of payment for their country) for WoW had nothing to do with the korean BW scene (who knows how many copies of the game they have actually sold, probably millions more than that even). D2's huge success had nothing to do with the korean BW scene.
Threads like these should be moderated heavily because shit posts are hitting the fan.
many people who reads these threads would believe other people's shit because they are being labeled as facts by the poster. opinions are fine since almost ALL of the posters in there doesnt really have a clue on whats going and the less knowledge they have, the more they can speculate. but to say that other people shit is just pure shit when in fact your post is also as shitty is really fucked up. thus the flame goes on ..
but some people believe that what they have posted are hard facts regarding the scene and its laughable.
No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success.
by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer
This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all.
I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction.
Stop thinking that BW is the only game that blizzard makes, and you will realize this.
A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene.
No, to you their reputation was built up by BW. For me, it was the combined effect of supporting their games, telling cool stories, and how awesome they all were. I loved diablo, D2, war2 (never played war1), sc, bw, and WoW. The only one that never really caught on for me was war3.
The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it.
Yes, SC is quite synonymous with the korean pro scene, I have never and will not argue against that.
No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success.
by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer
This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all.
I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction.
A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene.
No, to you their reputation was built up by BW. For me, it was the combined effect of supporting their games, telling cool stories, and how awesome they all were. I loved diablo, D2, war2 (never played war1), sc, bw, and WoW. The only one that never really caught on for me was war3.
The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it.
Yes, SC is quite synonymous with the korean pro scene, I have never and will not argue against that.
In your haste for a counter-argument, did you forget to read his post properly? Do take note that he mentioned "reputation"..
While sales figure might say this and that, they obviously fail to quantify reputation.. There are a few titles from which Blizz's reputation took off from which earn them the money for their next title.. Huge sales figure in the first few days, or even weeks of release are obviously not because the game was terrific, since almost nobody would have finished playing it to spread words that its awesome.. These people are drawn in because of the greatness of the previous titles.
Hey, Blizzard, how about fixing your games before suing people? Bnet 2.0 sucks to the point of physical pain. But its more important to sue people because you're just some money hungry retards. And because of your greedness we had to wait so much to get served a pile of shit. GG, you pricks.
On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote: If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2.
This is far from that. Photoshop is a tool, and most art derived from Photoshop is not dependent on it. Whereas maps, replays, broadcasted games are dependent on Starcraft programming.
Both of their legal agreements for using them are very different, because they are different software marketing different things.
I'll try to give you a better analogy, but it's very hard to compare anything to this situation.
I'm going to use DOTA. DOTA is a custom game/mod for WC3 based off of Aeon of Strife from SCBW. If the creator of these games decides not to use WC or SC as their platform to base their ideas and games upon, and uses a different platform or one created from the ground up. Does Blizzard have any legal right to DOTA / other games then?
Actually yes they do. That's why they're able to use the actual name "Blizzard DOTA" and not something else like League of Legends, or Heroes of Newerth.
You are wrong. They have no rights to DotA whatsoever, thats probably why they got mad and invented the new system where they own all custom maps made by users, as well as trying to make a Blizzard DotA now.. The one with right to DotA right now is Valve, who is working with Icefrog, the current developer of DotA (the original creator was Guinsoo n Eul, but Icefrog is in charge now), they already filed a trademark for DotA (all the way to DotA 4).
They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality.
Thats true, i bought SC2 because SC1 was awesome (and cos my old friends want to play SC2 with me n talk crap about it over dinner). I will probably buy Diablo 3 cos Diablo 2 was awesome as well.. I wont buy SC3, for obvious reasons.
What happens if SC3 is the best RTS ever? Would you buy it then?
I've played a lot of things Blizzard has put out (Diablo, Diablo 2, Warcraft 2, Blackthorne, Warcraft 3, WoW) and the only multiplayer game that was anyway near balanced was Brood War. Even Warcraft 2 was somehow incredibly imbalanced.
It seems we're arguing different things. No shit Blizzard is successful and BW doesn't effect the successes of Diablo or WoW...that's because they appeal to different people because they're different genres (one is a MMO where social interaction is massive, and one is a hack and slash). People who buy WoW and Diablo buy it for different reasons because they're different games. Balance doesn't matter TOO much for WoW and Diablo because the majority of people don't care about it and just play it with friends because its fun.
SC2 on the otherhand had such a massive launch because of the reputation Brood War had. The longevity and seriousness of the Brood War scene gave Blizzard a reputation for being masters of game balance (not really true considering Brood War is its only success...). It is a competitive RTS game and balance is the name of the game here; if its not balanced, it won't be fun to play, and therefore it won't be worth buying.
I suspect a lot of people who actually play semi-competitively on the ladder bought SC2 because of Blizzard's reputation for balance; most people I've played with at uni haven't even played Brood War...but still bought SC2 on the first day because they liked skill based RTS games like Dawn of War but wanted someone good like Blizzard to balance the game so it isn't frustrating to play competitively. WoW and Diablo had no influence here because they're different games from different genres and they don't really care about Blizzard's track record because they're not massive nerds like you and I.
Most people buy RTS games to play online. If the game has shit balance, anyone remotely competitive isn't going to buy it because they'll just get frustrated and ultimately quit because losing to imba shit is annoying. No one really cared about Dawn of War 2 because after the Dawn of War expansions and Company of Heroes: Opposing Fronts it was expected that it would be horribly broken.
No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success.
by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer
This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all.
I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction.
Stop thinking that BW is the only game that blizzard makes, and you will realize this.
A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene.
No, to you their reputation was built up by BW. For me, it was the combined effect of supporting their games, telling cool stories, and how awesome they all were. I loved diablo, D2, war2 (never played war1), sc, bw, and WoW. The only one that never really caught on for me was war3.
The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it.
Yes, SC is quite synonymous with the korean pro scene, I have never and will not argue against that.
In your haste for a counter-argument, did you forget to read his post properly? Do take note that he mentioned "reputation"..
While sales figure might say this and that, they obviously fail to quantify reputation.. There are a few titles from which Blizz's reputation took off from which earn them the money for their next title.. Huge sales figure in the first few days, or even weeks of release are obviously not because the game was terrific, since almost nobody would have finished playing it to spread words that its awesome.. These people are drawn in because of the greatness of the previous titles.
I did not forget to read the post correctly, did you read mine correctly? Do you not see that I mention D1, D2, and war2? All of these games were wildly successful and built their reputation even more. Then comes SC and WoW, their reputation is propelled even further. Obviously their reputation varies person to person, but for me it is a combination of the quality of all of their games.
On November 05 2010 17:20 WellDuh wrote: Hey, Blizzard, how about fixing your games before suing people? Bnet 2.0 sucks to the point of physical pain. But its more important to sue people because you're just some money hungry retards. And because of your greedness we had to wait so much to get served a pile of shit. GG, you pricks.
The legal team has nothing to do with development. bnet 2.0 is getting significant changes before the end of this year (as long as they stay on schedule) that will give us chat channels and who knows what else. They officially announced this already several times (including at blizzcon and before it)
Reading these threads makes me wonder. I followed the BW scene for the past 8 years with some of these guys, and the blind hate that they have for SC2 and Blizzard is ridiculous.
On November 05 2010 17:36 toadstool wrote: Reading these threads makes me wonder. I followed the BW scene for the past 8 years with some of these guys, and the blind hate that they have for SC2 and Blizzard is ridiculous.
Why do you focus on strategic games now? Are you finally realizing that the success of blizzard (you know, the company that makes more than just RTS games) did not hinge on SC?
Because people don't give a shit about what company is making what. they play games, not the companies. For them "b l i z z a r d" is nothing but a set of letters. They play games, and therefore, they don't care if this is "the game from the company that made such a great selling games, omg omg". They see if it is a good game. If it is shit, or they don't like it, they don't play it.
I point at that if not for koreans, never so many people would have liked SC. Because it's hard to play and there needed to be competitive spirit for it to make success.
Blizzard's success is unarguable, but if it ISN'T noticeably depend on SC - then... WTF? Why are they now f*cking with all this "IP rights"? Maybe because it DOES depend on SC series? -___-
Otherwise they would just leave it alone. If it didn't depend. They're spending money on lawyers, too. -____- So they think it's worth it.
So, basically I have answered all your arguments. Yes there are other great games of Blizzard, but I won't support it anymore because I think tha this company is shit. I think other developers can make not less good games.
and WomWomWom already has said the rest
To sum up: I think without Starcraft BLIZZ wouldn't be complete. If you pull off SC success out of them, then there wouldn't be the level of success we see now. They would just be more mediocre. And have not the power they now have. To take SC success from blizz's success overall is to take an arm or a leg from a man. And E-sports that they now trying to make money of, it was in 1/2 part created by Starcraft (the other half - by Quake/CS).
How sell WC3/SC2 without it????? Single player strategies are many - for example C&C series have BETTER single player. Honestly. Tiberian Sun has a lot more attractive single campaign.
So basically... I said an arm, but it can be more - like two arms, or two legs taken from a man. Do you think that without the major success of WC3/SC/SC2 Blizz would still be complete? Me, no, i don't.
On November 05 2010 17:36 toadstool wrote: Reading these threads makes me wonder. I followed the BW scene for the past 8 years with some of these guys, and the blind hate that they have for SC2 and Blizzard is ridiculous.
I don't hate SC2 itself. And i hate Blizzard not without a reason. I've been telling these reasons all the way.
Any updates on Korean netizens' reactions to this, OP? I want to see what they now think about OGN being involved in a lawsuit by Blizzard too. Either way, this thread is derailing fast.
Reading these threads makes me wonder. I followed the BW scene for the past 8 years with some of these guys, and the blind hate that they have for SC2 and Blizzard is ridiculous.
I don't hate SC2 itself. And i hate Blizzard not without a reason. I've been telling these reasons all the way.
This all perfectly makes sense.
Most of your posts are about how much you hate Sc2.
But seriously whats the Problem here? Blizz is sueing a company that makes profit without paying them for a license. This case is clear, but the people are jumping the "Sc2 is shit" train again
Reading these threads makes me wonder. I followed the BW scene for the past 8 years with some of these guys, and the blind hate that they have for SC2 and Blizzard is ridiculous.
I don't hate SC2 itself. And i hate Blizzard not without a reason. I've been telling these reasons all the way.
This all perfectly makes sense.
Most of your posts are about how much you hate Sc2.
But seriously whats the Problem here? Blizz is sueing a company that makes profit without paying them for a license. This case is clear, but the people are jumping the "Sc2 is shit" train again
Your opinion seems to be slightly one-sided, bordering on misinformed. Firstly, no direct profit is made, the payoff for the investors comes from advertising and the PR from sponsoring the teams. Secondly, this has continued for almost a decade, and the negotiations began when the sponsors coerced the broadcasting firms to pay additional money to the central NPO (Non-Profit-Organization) in order to keep the leagues running. This happened 3 years ago, until then, there was no problem about requiring licenses. Thirdly, the Broadcasting channels state that they barely break even, thus additional money demands would bring about drastic changes in either the leagues themselves, or worse yet, stop professional BW completely for even less control, if KeSPA is to be believed (and I quite blatantly do). This is how I'd sum up the thread: There are arguments and counterarguments as to the morality of such legal action(I help you sell your game for a decade and get sued for it), and a few regarding how much of the current BW competitive scene is separate/should be separate from the IP of Blizzard Entertainment. This is the case.
Yes, I tempt to agree to the fact that SC and D,D2, early W2 were the games that contributed to the company's success heavily, a bigger part of this success lies heavily on korean shoulders(in terms of SC), this is undeniable. If they say that they hope for BW leagues to coexist and develop with SC2, then why all this nonsense with IP rights, that only hurts badly the development and so-called coexistence itself? No, please, we all do understand that money is all what Blizzard wants out of it, there is no way we can change it, this is the way market always worked and works. The thing is how badly will it damage the sc sport in Korea, I hope it doesn't, but can we do anything? (I wish I could do something after all.)
"According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular." - hah, that is not a good argument, w3 was also more successful... in the beginning)
You see many young newcomers discover SC2 and find it a good game, but what if they played BW first? I think that there is no doubt that they would have liked it, SC2 hasn't become a well balanced and fully independent game yet, its still derives much from its predecessor, can we call it a different game? I would not say that, then what is it? I would call it a new copy of the old game system. This is indeed so, then why do I need another version of the old game? 1. Because I'm tired of the old one? - No 2. Because it has fancy units and smooth graphics? - well maybe for couple of weeks, but no in the end. 3. Because it is new, and I never played such games before? - Yes. (this can be partly the answer for its popularity)
So what I'm trying to say, whatever you do you cant reinvent a wheel, nor you can stop using it)
This is how I'd sum up the thread: There are arguments and counterarguments as to the morality of such legal action(I help you sell your game for a decade and get sued for it), and a few regarding how much of the current BW competitive scene is separate/should be separate from the IP of Blizzard Entertainment. This is the case.
Very good post imho. The answer comes down to personal preference, I personally feel it is insane that this is even possible. And I can't believe competition authorities would be on Blizzard's side on this subject. It is understandable that Blizzard can protect the rights to their game, but letting those rights interfere with a whole market would just be too restrictive for the innovation of the esports market. Right now they are wrongfully using their market power.
I think the best post i read on this is that whether or not is is proven to be legal for Blizzard to control all esports for BW it would suck because when they stop caring no one else is allowed to care.
I mean look at WC3, they just dont give a shit, now theres no support, no esports.
Prize hunting doesn't sustain esports, the Kespa model is what keeps esports for a game going.
No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success.
by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer
This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all.
I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction.
Stop thinking that BW is the only game that blizzard makes, and you will realize this.
A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene.
No, to you their reputation was built up by BW. For me, it was the combined effect of supporting their games, telling cool stories, and how awesome they all were. I loved diablo, D2, war2 (never played war1), sc, bw, and WoW. The only one that never really caught on for me was war3.
The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it.
Yes, SC is quite synonymous with the korean pro scene, I have never and will not argue against that.
In your haste for a counter-argument, did you forget to read his post properly? Do take note that he mentioned "reputation"..
While sales figure might say this and that, they obviously fail to quantify reputation.. There are a few titles from which Blizz's reputation took off from which earn them the money for their next title.. Huge sales figure in the first few days, or even weeks of release are obviously not because the game was terrific, since almost nobody would have finished playing it to spread words that its awesome.. These people are drawn in because of the greatness of the previous titles.
I did not forget to read the post correctly, did you read mine correctly? Do you not see that I mention D1, D2, and war2? All of these games were wildly successful and built their reputation even more. Then comes SC and WoW, their reputation is propelled even further. Obviously their reputation varies person to person, but for me it is a combination of the quality of all of their games.
Unfortunately you werent correct. D2 was released in 2000 while Starcraft came in 1998.
Your assumption of D2 laying down the foundation (reputation) for Starcraft was wrong. D1 was successful but nowhere near the "legendary" level of Diablo2 and Starcraft: Brood War, same goes for Warcraft 2.
How are things with the other games that are played and broadcasted? Like CS 1.6? They made that CS clone in Korea because they had similar problems as with Blizzard now, right?
I don't understand people who come here to defend Blizzard. How does it make you happy that they destroy a professional e-sport and take away the jobs of hundreds of people? OK, maybe they have the legal right to do so - that can be debated. But it is still mean and greedy. I would have understood it if it was either BW or SC2 – but KeSPA doesn’t try to kill SC2… Why do you want this to happen? Is it some kind of oedipal complex??
On November 05 2010 19:50 Elroi wrote: How are things with the other games that are played and broadcasted? Like CS 1.6? They made that CS clone in Korea because they had similar problems as with Blizzard now, right?
I don't understand people who come here to defend Blizzard. How does it make you happy that they destroy a professional e-sport and take away the jobs of hundreds of people? OK, maybe they have the legal right to do so - that can be debated. But it is still mean and greedy. I would have understood it if it was either BW or SC2 – but KeSPA doesn’t try to kill SC2… Why do you want this to happen? Is it some kind of oedipal complex??
You can correct me when I am wrong (because im not 100% sure ) but didnt Kespa try to give SC2 a X-Rating so it couldnt be viewed on TV?
No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success.
by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer
This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all.
I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction.
Stop thinking that BW is the only game that blizzard makes, and you will realize this.
A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene.
No, to you their reputation was built up by BW. For me, it was the combined effect of supporting their games, telling cool stories, and how awesome they all were. I loved diablo, D2, war2 (never played war1), sc, bw, and WoW. The only one that never really caught on for me was war3.
The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it.
Yes, SC is quite synonymous with the korean pro scene, I have never and will not argue against that.
In your haste for a counter-argument, did you forget to read his post properly? Do take note that he mentioned "reputation"..
While sales figure might say this and that, they obviously fail to quantify reputation.. There are a few titles from which Blizz's reputation took off from which earn them the money for their next title.. Huge sales figure in the first few days, or even weeks of release are obviously not because the game was terrific, since almost nobody would have finished playing it to spread words that its awesome.. These people are drawn in because of the greatness of the previous titles.
I did not forget to read the post correctly, did you read mine correctly? Do you not see that I mention D1, D2, and war2? All of these games were wildly successful and built their reputation even more. Then comes SC and WoW, their reputation is propelled even further. Obviously their reputation varies person to person, but for me it is a combination of the quality of all of their games.
Unfortunately you werent correct. D2 was released in 2000 while Starcraft came in 1998.
Your assumption of D2 laying down the foundation (reputation) for Starcraft was wrong. D1 was successful but nowhere near the "legendary" level of Diablo2 and Starcraft: Brood War, same goes for Warcraft 2.
Unfortunately, you continue to not read what I am saying. I am saying that D2 was big before the BW pro scene kicked in. Therefore, BW had no impact on D2. I did not say that D2 came out before SC.
My assumption was that D2 was popular and wouldve been popular regardless of the state of BW. My argument in this thread is that people are placing way too huge of an emphasis on how BW (the korean scene in particular) effected blizzard.
On November 05 2010 19:50 Elroi wrote: How are things with the other games that are played and broadcasted? Like CS 1.6? They made that CS clone in Korea because they had similar problems as with Blizzard now, right?
I don't understand people who come here to defend Blizzard. How does it make you happy that they destroy a professional e-sport and take away the jobs of hundreds of people? OK, maybe they have the legal right to do so - that can be debated. But it is still mean and greedy. I would have understood it if it was either BW or SC2 – but KeSPA doesn’t try to kill SC2… Why do you want this to happen? Is it some kind of oedipal complex??
You can correct me when I am wrong (because im not 100% sure ) but didnt Kespa try to give SC2 a X-Rating so it couldnt be viewed on TV?
On November 05 2010 19:50 Elroi wrote: How are things with the other games that are played and broadcasted? Like CS 1.6? They made that CS clone in Korea because they had similar problems as with Blizzard now, right?
I don't understand people who come here to defend Blizzard. How does it make you happy that they destroy a professional e-sport and take away the jobs of hundreds of people? OK, maybe they have the legal right to do so - that can be debated. But it is still mean and greedy. I would have understood it if it was either BW or SC2 – but KeSPA doesn’t try to kill SC2… Why do you want this to happen? Is it some kind of oedipal complex??
You can correct me when I am wrong (because im not 100% sure ) but didnt Kespa try to give SC2 a X-Rating so it couldnt be viewed on TV?
No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success.
by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer
This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all.
I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction.
Stop thinking that BW is the only game that blizzard makes, and you will realize this.
A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene.
No, to you their reputation was built up by BW. For me, it was the combined effect of supporting their games, telling cool stories, and how awesome they all were. I loved diablo, D2, war2 (never played war1), sc, bw, and WoW. The only one that never really caught on for me was war3.
The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it.
Yes, SC is quite synonymous with the korean pro scene, I have never and will not argue against that.
In your haste for a counter-argument, did you forget to read his post properly? Do take note that he mentioned "reputation"..
While sales figure might say this and that, they obviously fail to quantify reputation.. There are a few titles from which Blizz's reputation took off from which earn them the money for their next title.. Huge sales figure in the first few days, or even weeks of release are obviously not because the game was terrific, since almost nobody would have finished playing it to spread words that its awesome.. These people are drawn in because of the greatness of the previous titles.
I did not forget to read the post correctly, did you read mine correctly? Do you not see that I mention D1, D2, and war2? All of these games were wildly successful and built their reputation even more. Then comes SC and WoW, their reputation is propelled even further. Obviously their reputation varies person to person, but for me it is a combination of the quality of all of their games.
Unfortunately you werent correct. D2 was released in 2000 while Starcraft came in 1998.
Your assumption of D2 laying down the foundation (reputation) for Starcraft was wrong. D1 was successful but nowhere near the "legendary" level of Diablo2 and Starcraft: Brood War, same goes for Warcraft 2.
Unfortunately, you continue to not read what I am saying. I am saying that D2 was big before the BW pro scene kicked in. Therefore, BW had no impact on D2. I did not say that D2 came out before SC.
My assumption was that D2 was popular and wouldve been popular regardless of the state of BW. My argument in this thread is that people are placing way too huge of an emphasis on how BW (the korean scene in particular) effected blizzard.
I dont think what you are saying and your previous post matches.. But lets ignore that trivial detail, and agree to disagree for now. I dont think either will change their mind since there simply isnt much proof if at all as to how much popularity is derived from <insert product name>, its something that is rather hard to quantify.
But while you disagree, do respect the opinion that BW's responsible for a good amount of popularity Blizz is enjoying, and realise that we too have good reasons to believe so.
No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success.
by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer
This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all.
I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction.
Stop thinking that BW is the only game that blizzard makes, and you will realize this.
A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene.
No, to you their reputation was built up by BW. For me, it was the combined effect of supporting their games, telling cool stories, and how awesome they all were. I loved diablo, D2, war2 (never played war1), sc, bw, and WoW. The only one that never really caught on for me was war3.
The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it.
Yes, SC is quite synonymous with the korean pro scene, I have never and will not argue against that.
In your haste for a counter-argument, did you forget to read his post properly? Do take note that he mentioned "reputation"..
While sales figure might say this and that, they obviously fail to quantify reputation.. There are a few titles from which Blizz's reputation took off from which earn them the money for their next title.. Huge sales figure in the first few days, or even weeks of release are obviously not because the game was terrific, since almost nobody would have finished playing it to spread words that its awesome.. These people are drawn in because of the greatness of the previous titles.
I did not forget to read the post correctly, did you read mine correctly? Do you not see that I mention D1, D2, and war2? All of these games were wildly successful and built their reputation even more. Then comes SC and WoW, their reputation is propelled even further. Obviously their reputation varies person to person, but for me it is a combination of the quality of all of their games.
Unfortunately you werent correct. D2 was released in 2000 while Starcraft came in 1998.
Your assumption of D2 laying down the foundation (reputation) for Starcraft was wrong. D1 was successful but nowhere near the "legendary" level of Diablo2 and Starcraft: Brood War, same goes for Warcraft 2.
Unfortunately, you continue to not read what I am saying. I am saying that D2 was big before the BW pro scene kicked in. Therefore, BW had no impact on D2. I did not say that D2 came out before SC.
My assumption was that D2 was popular and wouldve been popular regardless of the state of BW. My argument in this thread is that people are placing way too huge of an emphasis on how BW (the korean scene in particular) effected blizzard.
I dont think what you are saying and your previous post matches.. But lets ignore that trivial detail, and agree to disagree for now. I dont think either will change their mind since there simply isnt much proof if at all as to how much popularity is derived from <insert product name>, its something that is rather hard to quantify.
But while you disagree, do respect the opinion that BW's responsible for a good amount of popularity Blizz is enjoying, and realise that we too have good reasons to believe so.
Yes, BW does increase blizzards reputation. Nowhere do I state that it didnt. I do think that everybody here is overstating how much it has effected their reputation. I also think that people further overstate how much the pro scene in particular has effected their reputation. I mean, if we used the logic of everybody in this thread, then valve should be nobodies... and yet they are one of the best respected developers in the world because of their reputation with their games.
On November 05 2010 16:11 We Are Here wrote: [quote]by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer
This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all.
I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction.
Stop thinking that BW is the only game that blizzard makes, and you will realize this.
A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene.
No, to you their reputation was built up by BW. For me, it was the combined effect of supporting their games, telling cool stories, and how awesome they all were. I loved diablo, D2, war2 (never played war1), sc, bw, and WoW. The only one that never really caught on for me was war3.
The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it.
Yes, SC is quite synonymous with the korean pro scene, I have never and will not argue against that.
In your haste for a counter-argument, did you forget to read his post properly? Do take note that he mentioned "reputation"..
While sales figure might say this and that, they obviously fail to quantify reputation.. There are a few titles from which Blizz's reputation took off from which earn them the money for their next title.. Huge sales figure in the first few days, or even weeks of release are obviously not because the game was terrific, since almost nobody would have finished playing it to spread words that its awesome.. These people are drawn in because of the greatness of the previous titles.
I did not forget to read the post correctly, did you read mine correctly? Do you not see that I mention D1, D2, and war2? All of these games were wildly successful and built their reputation even more. Then comes SC and WoW, their reputation is propelled even further. Obviously their reputation varies person to person, but for me it is a combination of the quality of all of their games.
Unfortunately you werent correct. D2 was released in 2000 while Starcraft came in 1998.
Your assumption of D2 laying down the foundation (reputation) for Starcraft was wrong. D1 was successful but nowhere near the "legendary" level of Diablo2 and Starcraft: Brood War, same goes for Warcraft 2.
Unfortunately, you continue to not read what I am saying. I am saying that D2 was big before the BW pro scene kicked in. Therefore, BW had no impact on D2. I did not say that D2 came out before SC.
My assumption was that D2 was popular and wouldve been popular regardless of the state of BW. My argument in this thread is that people are placing way too huge of an emphasis on how BW (the korean scene in particular) effected blizzard.
I dont think what you are saying and your previous post matches.. But lets ignore that trivial detail, and agree to disagree for now. I dont think either will change their mind since there simply isnt much proof if at all as to how much popularity is derived from <insert product name>, its something that is rather hard to quantify.
But while you disagree, do respect the opinion that BW's responsible for a good amount of popularity Blizz is enjoying, and realise that we too have good reasons to believe so.
Yes, BW does increase blizzards reputation. Nowhere do I state that it didnt. I do think that everybody here is overstating how much it has effected their reputation. I also think that people further overstate how much the pro scene in particular has effected their reputation. I mean, if we used the logic of everybody in this thread, then valve should be nobodies... and yet they are one of the best respected developers in the world because of their reputation with their games.
Since you bring in valve have you ever see valve even with the release of CS source did any vigorous attempts to kill its previous game like cs 1.6 ?? Or even stop any person who was broadcasting the show ? Non I can't tell you valve made quality games be it half life 1998 and half life 2 . Now on the aspect of starcraft bw versus starcraft 2 there's a tremendous drop of quality in my opinion.
On November 05 2010 20:31 TheRabidDeer wrote: Yes, BW does increase blizzards reputation. Nowhere do I state that it didnt. I do think that everybody here is overstating how much it has effected their reputation. I also think that people further overstate how much the pro scene in particular has effected their reputation. I mean, if we used the logic of everybody in this thread, then valve should be nobodies... and yet they are one of the best respected developers in the world because of their reputation with their games.
4,5 million copies, dude. 4.5 million of 9.5 overall.
And raised strategy genre to the competitive state. It means it gave impact on WC3 and SC2. Otherwise they would nowhere as popular. And now we have numbers, that are like a hint to us. If Korea sales are about 50% of world's, why the popularity over the world is not so contributed to Korea?
Lets not forget that the WC3 was also popular there. There were (or still are) pro teams and they helped the popularity.
They owe them their reputation. They owe them popularity of the strategic genre. StarCraft is a phenomenon. But it wouldn't be, and wouldn't lead to notability of other Blizz strategic games, if it wasn't for korean proscene.
I'm quite sure that IS ENOUGH to take HANDS OFF them. Inhumanity is not so popular nowadays. We've had enough of it last century -___-
On November 05 2010 16:21 TheRabidDeer wrote: [quote] This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all.
I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction.
Stop thinking that BW is the only game that blizzard makes, and you will realize this.
A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene.
No, to you their reputation was built up by BW. For me, it was the combined effect of supporting their games, telling cool stories, and how awesome they all were. I loved diablo, D2, war2 (never played war1), sc, bw, and WoW. The only one that never really caught on for me was war3.
The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it.
Yes, SC is quite synonymous with the korean pro scene, I have never and will not argue against that.
In your haste for a counter-argument, did you forget to read his post properly? Do take note that he mentioned "reputation"..
While sales figure might say this and that, they obviously fail to quantify reputation.. There are a few titles from which Blizz's reputation took off from which earn them the money for their next title.. Huge sales figure in the first few days, or even weeks of release are obviously not because the game was terrific, since almost nobody would have finished playing it to spread words that its awesome.. These people are drawn in because of the greatness of the previous titles.
I did not forget to read the post correctly, did you read mine correctly? Do you not see that I mention D1, D2, and war2? All of these games were wildly successful and built their reputation even more. Then comes SC and WoW, their reputation is propelled even further. Obviously their reputation varies person to person, but for me it is a combination of the quality of all of their games.
Unfortunately you werent correct. D2 was released in 2000 while Starcraft came in 1998.
Your assumption of D2 laying down the foundation (reputation) for Starcraft was wrong. D1 was successful but nowhere near the "legendary" level of Diablo2 and Starcraft: Brood War, same goes for Warcraft 2.
Unfortunately, you continue to not read what I am saying. I am saying that D2 was big before the BW pro scene kicked in. Therefore, BW had no impact on D2. I did not say that D2 came out before SC.
My assumption was that D2 was popular and wouldve been popular regardless of the state of BW. My argument in this thread is that people are placing way too huge of an emphasis on how BW (the korean scene in particular) effected blizzard.
I dont think what you are saying and your previous post matches.. But lets ignore that trivial detail, and agree to disagree for now. I dont think either will change their mind since there simply isnt much proof if at all as to how much popularity is derived from <insert product name>, its something that is rather hard to quantify.
But while you disagree, do respect the opinion that BW's responsible for a good amount of popularity Blizz is enjoying, and realise that we too have good reasons to believe so.
Yes, BW does increase blizzards reputation. Nowhere do I state that it didnt. I do think that everybody here is overstating how much it has effected their reputation. I also think that people further overstate how much the pro scene in particular has effected their reputation. I mean, if we used the logic of everybody in this thread, then valve should be nobodies... and yet they are one of the best respected developers in the world because of their reputation with their games.
Since you bring in valve have you ever see valve even with the release of CS source did any vigorous attempts to kill its previous game like cs 1.6 ?? Or even stop any person who was broadcasting the show ? Non I can't tell you valve made quality games be it half life 1998 and half life 2 . Now on the aspect of starcraft bw versus starcraft 2 there's a tremendous drop of quality in my opinion.
Well, one thing that caused a huge uproar was when they put in-game advertising into CS 1.6 but not CS:S in 2007. They havent had to deal with broadcast/IP rights because nobody has tried to steal them away from them. If some company decided to sell broadcast rights for CS then you can bet your ass they would try to shut down whoever was trying to do it.
On November 05 2010 20:31 TheRabidDeer wrote: Yes, BW does increase blizzards reputation. Nowhere do I state that it didnt. I do think that everybody here is overstating how much it has effected their reputation. I also think that people further overstate how much the pro scene in particular has effected their reputation. I mean, if we used the logic of everybody in this thread, then valve should be nobodies... and yet they are one of the best respected developers in the world because of their reputation with their games.
4,5 million copies, dude. 4.5 million of 9.5 overall.
And raised strategy genre to the competitive state. It means it gave impact on WC3 and SC2. Otherwise they would nowhere as popular. And now we have numbers, that are like a hint to us. If Korea sales are about 50% of world's, why the popularity over the world is not so contributed to Korea?
Lets not forget that the WC3 was also popular there. There were (or still are) pro teams and they helped the popularity.
They owe them their reputation. They owe them popularity of the strategic genre. StarCraft is a phenomenon. But it wouldn't be, and wouldn't lead to notability of other Blizz strategic games, if it wasn't for korean proscene.
I'm quite sure that IS ENOUGH to take HANDS OFF them. Inhumanity is not so popular nowadays. We've had enough of it last century -___-
Again, yes it helped. However, BLIZZARD is not just RTS. I dont know if there is some kind of language barrier going on or something, but I keep having to restate this. 4.5 million copies sold is NOTHING compared to 12 million ACTIVE SUBSCRIPTIONS (12+ million people buying classic WoW, TBC, WotLK and soon cataclysm... 12 million people paying $180 each year to play). It is NOTHING compared to OVERALL sales. Yes, it is something and it did probably contribute to WC3/SC2 sales, but seriously their overall reputation (and why all of their games sell) is not effected as much as you try to indicate. You are making it seem like if BW didnt get the pro scene then SC2 wouldnt have happened, or any of the other games that blizzard has made since then.
On November 05 2010 20:31 TheRabidDeer wrote: Yes, BW does increase blizzards reputation. Nowhere do I state that it didnt. I do think that everybody here is overstating how much it has effected their reputation. I also think that people further overstate how much the pro scene in particular has effected their reputation. I mean, if we used the logic of everybody in this thread, then valve should be nobodies... and yet they are one of the best respected developers in the world because of their reputation with their games.
4,5 million copies, dude. 4.5 million of 9.5 overall.
And raised strategy genre to the competitive state. It means it gave impact on WC3 and SC2. Otherwise they would nowhere as popular. And now we have numbers, that are like a hint to us. If Korea sales are about 50% of world's, why the popularity over the world is not so contributed to Korea?
Lets not forget that the WC3 was also popular there. There were (or still are) pro teams and they helped the popularity.
They owe them their reputation. They owe them popularity of the strategic genre. StarCraft is a phenomenon. But it wouldn't be, and wouldn't lead to notability of other Blizz strategic games, if it wasn't for korean proscene.
I'm quite sure that IS ENOUGH to take HANDS OFF them. Inhumanity is not so popular nowadays. We've had enough of it last century -___-
Again, yes it helped. However, BLIZZARD is not just RTS. I dont know if there is some kind of language barrier going on or something, but I keep having to restate this. 4.5 million copies sold is NOTHING compared to 12 million ACTIVE SUBSCRIPTIONS (12+ million people buying classic WoW, TBC, WotLK and soon cataclysm... 12 million people paying $180 each year to play). It is NOTHING compared to OVERALL sales. Yes, it is something and it did probably contribute to WC3/SC2 sales, but seriously their overall reputation (and why all of their games sell) is not effected as much as you try to indicate. You are making it seem like if BW didnt get the pro scene then SC2 wouldnt have happened, or any of the other games that blizzard has made since then.
I dunno what you guys are arguing about. You're both right. Starcraft laid the foundations down for SC2 and the progaming scene, without it there would be no GSL and Starcraft 2 would be called Space Wars 2.
But BW isn't the ONLY reason SC2 is popular, if you look at the number of copies sold and rave reviews it has received then SC2 is the top RTS release in YEARS based on its number of sales and reviews.
Isn't this basically the same thing that is happening to MBC? Ok Blizzard needs to start looking after the benefit of E-sports as a whole rather than caring only about money and expanding its corporation...
Koreans owe starcraft's proscene to starcraft = they've bought millions of copies of both games.
Blizzard owes starcraft's popularity to proscene = they didn't even thank them and now suing them.
Lol kthxbye? -____-
And lol, WoW also has a relation to WC3 which success is highly related with SC (or otherwise, it wouldn't be even a bit balanced). I saw many people go to WoW only because they played WC3. Lol, now there is no relation?
They now want to get money from SC2 in a similar fashion as WoW, on daily/weekly/monthly based income, by means of tournaments, broadcast licenses and so on. But they will fail in it because they are not able to make of it a worthy spectacle. Only koreans can - it is their "intellectual property".
Blizzard should be grateful that Starcraft 1 is still being played and broadcasted but it's indeed a problem OGN not trying to make a deal first and bitching later about the price it's so sad to see a 97'th game not being free yet
I dont know if I am going to be able to respond to this thread anymore, as I am currently in the process of ripping my eyeballs out in frustration at these posts.
On November 05 2010 21:29 TheRabidDeer wrote: I dont know if I am going to be able to respond to this thread anymore, as I am currently in the process of ripping my eyeballs out in frustration at these posts.
Korea. Created. E-sports.
WC3's popularity - they owe it to SC at very high degree. WoW would never be so popular if not the first generation of its players who switched from WC3.
They're trying to defile the very source. It doesn't come without repay.
On November 05 2010 21:29 TheRabidDeer wrote: I dont know if I am going to be able to respond to this thread anymore, as I am currently in the process of ripping my eyeballs out in frustration at these posts.
Do the same thing as i am gonna do: go for a walk
Back to the topic. People say that Blizz has no IP-Rights about their own game? Only because there were other people involved into making SC popular?
I tell you something, it´s all about money and Kespa's already got their peace of the cake. You can say that Kespa is a non-profit organisation, but i promiss you SOMEONE is getting rich.
Yes, they got the ip rights. But they also use the popularity that koreans gave them.
They get their ip property's payback when, for example, I buy from them SC1. Or Koreans buy it. Or OGN/MBC/Kespa buys it - i'm pretty sure that any progamer and any show computer has a licensed copy of the game.
But the show they create of it - it is THEIRS. If Blizz uses this popularity to their profit and then said - we're suing you. And even no thank, no any payback.
These shows cannot be undone - so Blizz must deal with it as with something that they used, but not created. If they don't - they're cardinally wrong.
If you think that Blizzard owns it all - forget iccup, all other servers - go to battle.net and play only on it and in single campaign. And yes, no fan-made maps. You'll see the difference.
P.S.: Blizzard made 2 maps that basically don't suck - Lost Temple (and imbalanced in almost all pre-korean versions too) and Hunters (can be even used 1x1 but too imbalanced in pre-korean vesions)
On November 05 2010 20:31 TheRabidDeer wrote: Yes, BW does increase blizzards reputation. Nowhere do I state that it didnt. I do think that everybody here is overstating how much it has effected their reputation. I also think that people further overstate how much the pro scene in particular has effected their reputation. I mean, if we used the logic of everybody in this thread, then valve should be nobodies... and yet they are one of the best respected developers in the world because of their reputation with their games.
4,5 million copies, dude. 4.5 million of 9.5 overall.
And raised strategy genre to the competitive state. It means it gave impact on WC3 and SC2. Otherwise they would nowhere as popular. And now we have numbers, that are like a hint to us. If Korea sales are about 50% of world's, why the popularity over the world is not so contributed to Korea?
Lets not forget that the WC3 was also popular there. There were (or still are) pro teams and they helped the popularity.
They owe them their reputation. They owe them popularity of the strategic genre. StarCraft is a phenomenon. But it wouldn't be, and wouldn't lead to notability of other Blizz strategic games, if it wasn't for korean proscene.
I'm quite sure that IS ENOUGH to take HANDS OFF them. Inhumanity is not so popular nowadays. We've had enough of it last century -___-
Again, yes it helped. However, BLIZZARD is not just RTS. I dont know if there is some kind of language barrier going on or something, but I keep having to restate this. 4.5 million copies sold is NOTHING compared to 12 million ACTIVE SUBSCRIPTIONS (12+ million people buying classic WoW, TBC, WotLK and soon cataclysm... 12 million people paying $180 each year to play). It is NOTHING compared to OVERALL sales. Yes, it is something and it did probably contribute to WC3/SC2 sales, but seriously their overall reputation (and why all of their games sell) is not effected as much as you try to indicate. You are making it seem like if BW didnt get the pro scene then SC2 wouldnt have happened, or any of the other games that blizzard has made since then.
Considering this was right of the top of the last page I checked, I think I should comment on this.
You cannot compare the sales from SC:BW to WoW. Not only are they totally different genres, but they're totally different times as well: 1998 and 2004 respectfully. When SC:BW was released it shattered sales records. Likewise WoW did the same thing when it was released. I just wanted to point that out. -_-
i think that blizzard are completely within their rights to crack down on OGN. they made it, they have intellectual property rights and OGN aren't respecting that. it's a shame it had to come to a legal battle. maybe the Blizz team can challange the OGN team to a casted game (HD and Husky casting? )
On November 05 2010 21:42 _Quasar_ wrote: Yes, they got the ip rights. But they also use the popularity that koreans gave them.
They get their ip property's payback when, for example, I buy from them SC1. Or Koreans buy it. Or OGN/MBC/Kespa buys it - i'm pretty sure that any progamer and any show computer has a licensed copy of the game.
But the show they create of it - it is THEIRS. If Blizz uses this popularity to their profit and then said - we're suing you. And even no thank, no any payback.
These shows cannot be undone - so Blizz must deal with it as with something that they used, but not created. If they don't - they're cardinally wrong.
If you think that Blizzard owns it all - forget iccup, all other servers - go to battle.net and play only on it and in single campaign. And yes, no fan-made maps. You'll see the difference.
P.S.: Blizzard made 2 maps that basically don't suck - Lost Temple (and imbalanced in almost all pre-korean versions too) and Hunters (can be even used 1x1 but too imbalanced in pre-korean vesions)
Maybe thats just the Softwareengineer speaking out of me... but the effort making a map via editor isn't nearly as big as making the whole game, including the engine and the friggin editor
On November 05 2010 20:31 TheRabidDeer wrote: Yes, BW does increase blizzards reputation. Nowhere do I state that it didnt. I do think that everybody here is overstating how much it has effected their reputation. I also think that people further overstate how much the pro scene in particular has effected their reputation. I mean, if we used the logic of everybody in this thread, then valve should be nobodies... and yet they are one of the best respected developers in the world because of their reputation with their games.
4,5 million copies, dude. 4.5 million of 9.5 overall.
And raised strategy genre to the competitive state. It means it gave impact on WC3 and SC2. Otherwise they would nowhere as popular. And now we have numbers, that are like a hint to us. If Korea sales are about 50% of world's, why the popularity over the world is not so contributed to Korea?
Lets not forget that the WC3 was also popular there. There were (or still are) pro teams and they helped the popularity.
They owe them their reputation. They owe them popularity of the strategic genre. StarCraft is a phenomenon. But it wouldn't be, and wouldn't lead to notability of other Blizz strategic games, if it wasn't for korean proscene.
I'm quite sure that IS ENOUGH to take HANDS OFF them. Inhumanity is not so popular nowadays. We've had enough of it last century -___-
Again, yes it helped. However, BLIZZARD is not just RTS. I dont know if there is some kind of language barrier going on or something, but I keep having to restate this. 4.5 million copies sold is NOTHING compared to 12 million ACTIVE SUBSCRIPTIONS (12+ million people buying classic WoW, TBC, WotLK and soon cataclysm... 12 million people paying $180 each year to play). It is NOTHING compared to OVERALL sales. Yes, it is something and it did probably contribute to WC3/SC2 sales, but seriously their overall reputation (and why all of their games sell) is not effected as much as you try to indicate. You are making it seem like if BW didnt get the pro scene then SC2 wouldnt have happened, or any of the other games that blizzard has made since then.
Considering this was right of the top of the last page I checked I think I should comment on this.
You cannot compare the sales from SC:BW to WoW. Not only are they totally different genres, but they're totally different times as well: 1998 and 2004 respectfully. When SC:BW was released it shattered sales records. Likewise WoW did the same thing when it was released. I just wanted to point that out. -_-
Shouldve read the quoted posts, I am debunking quasar's theory that the BW pro scene basically created the blizzard of today. You saying that BW shattered sales records just further helps prove my point that it isnt true.
On November 05 2010 21:29 TheRabidDeer wrote: I dont know if I am going to be able to respond to this thread anymore, as I am currently in the process of ripping my eyeballs out in frustration at these posts.
Do the same thing as i am gonna do: go for a walk
Back to the topic. People say that Blizz has no IP-Rights about their own game? Only because there were other people involved into making SC popular?
I tell you something, it´s all about money and Kespa's already got their peace of the cake. You can say that Kespa is a non-profit organisation, but i promiss you SOMEONE is getting rich.
Kespa maybe is RICH plus its only speculations that you can make that they are SO CALLED RICH as long there's no proof or any evidential source that kespa is the bad guy here than i rest my case now moving on to the broadcaster they are merely subsidiary broadcaster who broadcasts game and do they(ogn,mbc) reap the benefit the sponsors get from like samsung and skt1???. Ogn and mbc only get profit from their advertisement and mostly not much because the viewer's who view proleague and starcraft games are merely teenager . So what can you say about that ?????
The Pro Scene had a big influence not only in Korea, but helped our scene out as well. To say otherwise is flat out ignorant. However, saying the BW pro scene created the Blizzard of today is just as blasphemous. In other words, your both wrong. -_-
On November 05 2010 21:29 TheRabidDeer wrote: I dont know if I am going to be able to respond to this thread anymore, as I am currently in the process of ripping my eyeballs out in frustration at these posts.
Do the same thing as i am gonna do: go for a walk
Back to the topic. People say that Blizz has no IP-Rights about their own game? Only because there were other people involved into making SC popular?
I tell you something, it´s all about money and Kespa's already got their peace of the cake. You can say that Kespa is a non-profit organisation, but i promiss you SOMEONE is getting rich.
Kespa maybe is RICH plus its only speculations that you can make that they are SO CALLED RICH as long there's no proof or any evidential source that kespa is the bad guy here than i rest my case now moving on to the broadcaster they are merely subsidiary broadcaster who broadcasts game and do they(ogn,mbc) reap the benefit the sponsors get from like samsung and skt1???. Ogn and mbc only get profit from their advertisement and mostly not much because the viewer's who view proleague and starcraft games are merely teenager . So what can you say about that ?????
Maybe i dont understand something but OGN and MBC are TV stations? And most TV stations get their cash from advertising(alot of cash). They make profit and can pay for a license. I dont get where the problem is.
Maybe thats just the Softwareengineer speaking out of me... but the effort making a map via editor isn't nearly as big as making the whole game, including the engine and the friggin editor
effort of making e-sports scene IS huge.
And - map creators didn't do that for money.
And however - that IS effort. Go and see Blizzard's starcraft. It's just almost empty compared to the Starcraft we have now and to which the korean proscene has contributed.
Ignoring it you go against laws of the nature. And laws of nature don't like being ignored. That's basically what I'm trying to point at all the way.
StarStruck - not whole Blizzard, but their half, or third. Its VERY HIGH contribution. And it is a "source" contribution, a part of the basis - it can be ignored. And it isn't to be ignored.
Maybe thats just the Softwareengineer speaking out of me... but the effort making a map via editor isn't nearly as big as making the whole game, including the engine and the friggin editor
effort of making e-sports scene IS huge.
And - map creators didn't do that for money.
And however - that IS effort. Go and see Blizzard's starcraft. It's just almost empty compared to the Starcraft we have now and to which the korean proscene has contributed.
Ignoring it you go against laws of the nature. And laws of nature don't like being ignored. That's basically what I'm trying to point at all the way.
StarStruck - not whole Blizzard, but their half, or third. Its VERY HIGH contribution. And it is a "source" contribution, a part of the basis - it can be ignored. And it isn't to be ignored.
Got to agree with quasar here imagine playing only the maps created by blizzard for 10 years and no fan contribution just keep that in mind without any fan contribution for the love of the game would we have seen such amazing maps out there now ? Probably those who didn't play bw and starcraft when it first release will not understand the difference because they have sc2 at their side now .
Blizzard is indebted to Korea. E-sports is indebted to Korea... Korea created E-sports... What does Blizzard think it's doing?
They're trying to steal the magic. Basically claiming that all of Korean esports is theirs, as a derivative work.
I support Blizzard's rights to go after broadcasting fees, but to claim ownership of the replays and players seems incredulous.
If they're just haggling over price then I think things will work out fine. The judge will set a price and things will move on.
But I fear they're arguing over whether its possible to run esports under a strictly enforced EULA. And in that case Kespa might really be more willing to shut the whole thing down rather than complying with Blizzard.
On November 05 2010 21:49 O.Golden_ne wrote: i think that blizzard are completely within their rights to crack down on OGN. they made it, they have intellectual property rights and OGN aren't respecting that. it's a shame it had to come to a legal battle. maybe the Blizz team can challange the OGN team to a casted game (HD and Husky casting? )
Not only does this contribute nothing as this is probably the most preliminary argument one could possibly think of but 9 posts plus husky/HD mentions makes me think you're just another SC2 player who has never watched a proleague final and have no idea how attached people are to BW. There are so many people who don't want Blizzard doing all this shit because they're rich beyond their wildest imaginations and all we want is to keep watching BW.
It's not about IP rights, its a morality issue and clearly the new Blizzard doesn't give a shit. Reason? Activision.
Negotiations didn't work. Mediation didn't work. So now a judge is going to hear it, likely make some ridiculous ruling for both sides.
It sucks, but when you see the history of these two entities, it's not surprising how it's gotten to this point. Be fun if the community buried the hatchet till we get more details on what said ruling will imply.
The OSL has existed for over 10 years and is considered the most prestigious league in esports. It will be sad to see it go away just like that. Besides I thought that blizzard and OGN have already settled this.
On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote: If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2.
This is far from that. Photoshop is a tool, and most art derived from Photoshop is not dependent on it. Whereas maps, replays, broadcasted games are dependent on Starcraft programming.
Both of their legal agreements for using them are very different, because they are different software marketing different things.
I'll try to give you a better analogy, but it's very hard to compare anything to this situation.
I'm going to use DOTA. DOTA is a custom game/mod for WC3 based off of Aeon of Strife from SCBW. If the creator of these games decides not to use WC or SC as their platform to base their ideas and games upon, and uses a different platform or one created from the ground up. Does Blizzard have any legal right to DOTA / other games then?
Actually yes they do. That's why they're able to use the actual name "Blizzard DOTA" and not something else like League of Legends, or Heroes of Newerth.
You are wrong. They have no rights to DotA whatsoever, thats probably why they got mad and invented the new system where they own all custom maps made by users, as well as trying to make a Blizzard DotA now.. The one with right to DotA right now is Valve, who is working with Icefrog, the current developer of DotA (the original creator was Guinsoo n Eul, but Icefrog is in charge now), they already filed a trademark for DotA (all the way to DotA 4).
They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality.
Thats true, i bought SC2 because SC1 was awesome (and cos my old friends want to play SC2 with me n talk crap about it over dinner). I will probably buy Diablo 3 cos Diablo 2 was awesome as well.. I wont buy SC3, for obvious reasons.
And that's my point, they don't need Icefrog to use the name, since the game was created inside of Blizzard owned IP. Also of note, Icefrog worked on LoL too I believe, not so sure about HoN.
Blizzard will win obviously, they not only have the legal right to protect their IP, but they have international law at their side. Also sometimes a company can claim that the licencing was outrageous, however, ogn already obtained rights previously, but chose not to renew them. Gretech will easily win this. As far as the future of OSL, what i predict is that the court will issue and injunction to stop the league, ogn will meet with gretech the next day and an arrangement will be met swiftly and then the court case will be abandoned.
On November 06 2010 01:21 Moody wrote: does this "legal right to broadcast" affect organizations like iCCup or other tourney's that are cast? it seems like it would...
The terms are rather unclear. I have not read through the SC2 EULA (only the WoW one), but I know they cover broadcast and rebroadcast as rights (in WoW), and in the US legal system, EULAs are enforceable for certain rights (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProCD,_Inc._v._Zeidenberg for example). One that has not been tested yet is the right of IP broadcast / rebroadcast.
Blizzard has allowed not-for-profit broadcasts without restriction (see JTV, YouTube); That does not imply they do not retain the right, as unlike trademarks you do not have to enforce it.
Therefore, leagues and broadcasters that are for-profit are required (by running SC2 or broadcasting video coming from the game, all as stated in the EULA) to obtain a license from Blizzard. You are free to form an opinion based upon if they should be requiring this, but legally they have every right to do so.
As for opinion: I support Blizzard in this. If you want to run a for profit league or broadcast, you pay for the right to do so. Incidentally, this is how all sports leagues operate with the exception that they don't allow non-profit broadcasts. (Ex: FIFA, NFL, NBA, NHL, the Olympics, etc)
On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote: If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2.
This is far from that. Photoshop is a tool, and most art derived from Photoshop is not dependent on it. Whereas maps, replays, broadcasted games are dependent on Starcraft programming.
Both of their legal agreements for using them are very different, because they are different software marketing different things.
I'll try to give you a better analogy, but it's very hard to compare anything to this situation.
I'm going to use DOTA. DOTA is a custom game/mod for WC3 based off of Aeon of Strife from SCBW. If the creator of these games decides not to use WC or SC as their platform to base their ideas and games upon, and uses a different platform or one created from the ground up. Does Blizzard have any legal right to DOTA / other games then?
Actually yes they do. That's why they're able to use the actual name "Blizzard DOTA" and not something else like League of Legends, or Heroes of Newerth.
You are wrong. They have no rights to DotA whatsoever, thats probably why they got mad and invented the new system where they own all custom maps made by users, as well as trying to make a Blizzard DotA now.. The one with right to DotA right now is Valve, who is working with Icefrog, the current developer of DotA (the original creator was Guinsoo n Eul, but Icefrog is in charge now), they already filed a trademark for DotA (all the way to DotA 4).
They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality.
Thats true, i bought SC2 because SC1 was awesome (and cos my old friends want to play SC2 with me n talk crap about it over dinner). I will probably buy Diablo 3 cos Diablo 2 was awesome as well.. I wont buy SC3, for obvious reasons.
And that's my point, they don't need Icefrog to use the name, since the game was created inside of Blizzard owned IP. Also of note, Icefrog worked on LoL too I believe, not so sure about HoN.
I dont think so, seeing has Valve having already filed the Trademark for DotA up to DotA 4.. I believe Blizzard probably would have to work out something with Valve, since they forgot to mention that they own fanmade custom maps in WC3.
Also Icefrog isnt working for League of Legend, it is Guinsoo who does (Guinsoo = original creator of DotA, but he and Eul left the developing team after version 5.84c, and Icefrog is the one in charge now). In fact i believe they are having a small fight regarding IP rights over DotA as well. Didnt follow it closely so i do not know the details though.
I believe Kespa have agreed to pay in the past (some weeks ago).. But suddenly now paying becomes a problem.. There are many possible scenario, but we cant really tell if we do not know the details.. For example, if Blizz suddenly wanted to charge a ridiculous amount, it would not be possible to simply comply with their demands.. (as a anti-Blizz i obviously gave a biased example, please do not take offence)
Also if you would read up more on the forums on past conditions that Blizz gave, many would think that those conditions are ... difficult to say the least. While i do not think that Blizz has all the legal rights, since IP is complicated and imo in this case it involve many other factors outside of simply the game, to quote someone else earlier in the thread: Even if they (blizz) has all the legal right to fuck me over, it doesnt change the fact that they are fucking me over.
On November 06 2010 01:21 Moody wrote: does this "legal right to broadcast" affect organizations like iCCup or other tourney's that are cast? it seems like it would...
Blizzard is only claiming IP rights over actual TV broadcasts and for profit leagues.
ICCup et al do have to get a licence to run tourneys, but as they aren't doing it for profit and also not paying out particularly large sums in prize money Blizz doesn't require them to pay, just to get a licence. They also only broadcast on the internet via JTV/Ustream etc.
I would imagine MLG/ESL probably do have to pay a small fee to blizzard because of the scale of their tourneys and their premium service, either that or they have come to some arrangement with Blizz. I also imagine they wouldn't claim to have the right to broadcast without blizz permission.... if blizz told MLG they can't broadcast without paying, they would work out a deal or shut down.
Kespa et al claim that they have the right to broadcast BW without Blizz's permission and without a licence or paying for the priviledge. That is the big difference. Personally i don't care who is right or wrong, i just want it settled one way or another
Blizz are basically trying to set a precedence for the future, gaming companies have started to enforce much stricter IP rights on their products in the last few years and now have the legistlation to back it up. in the UK/US etc there are definate laws about who owns the IP rights, and they clearly state it would be Blizzard in this case..... even if they haven't enforced them in the past, they have a legal right to do so whenever they choose. Whether these laws would apply to Korea is the big question
If blizz one day decided that we can't stream our own games, or broadcast tourneys without obtaining a licence, we would have no choice but to get one or face some kind of action on their part, whether that be banning our bnet account, having JTV etc shut down our streams or taking legal action. Luckily tho.... this will likely never happen as blizzard don't want to shut down the average gamer and non-profit organisations who are promoting their game and esports in general.
1. People need to stop using Photoshop, 3ds Max 'tool' argument because it is retarded. Those tools have separate license versions if you want to sell your works for money. 3ds Max cost $1000+ for the standard version, student version cost $300.. difference? You can sell your work with the standard but not for student.
2. Controlling your IP right is important. If you are lucky, people using your IP can improve your product sells and awareness, if you are not lucky, people can run your product to the ground. Think of what happens if people use blizzard's engine for illegal activity such as pornography, viruses, spams. Are you really going to leave it up to chance?
3. Filing a suit does not mean it would go to court or it would cancel your MSL, OSL..etc. You are just pressuring that it would be resolved as soon as possible. Of course, if both side doesn't want to negotiate, then it would go to court. Blizzard haven't requested a cease and desist yet, so stop getting a head of yourselves.
I believe Kespa have agreed to pay in the past (some weeks ago).. But suddenly now paying becomes a problem.
As unfortunate as that is, it is still Blizzard's right to insist upon whatever requirements they wish. At the same time, KeSPA and OGN have a right to defend themselves in court, and that is where I suspect this issue will get its resolution.
As for annoying or impossible requirements, having run a LAN center before, I can fully understand how painful working with publishers / developers can be. Valve was particularly awful to LAN centers trying to be legal when they first started with steam (and for a few years after). I would hope that Blizzard is better than Valve was at that time.
Everything I have seen from them, and when I have spoken with them, indicates Blizzard is forthcoming with their requirements for broadcasting/gaming rights. I understand your pain for a favored league, but these issues do need to be legally resolved. What OGN did (ignoring the EULA) is not legally protected, and they will now face a lawsuit that will establish exactly how much control Blizzard can exert on broadcasts.
On a personal note: I hope you guys do not mind big posts from a relatively new poster. I've been reading TL for awhile, but I recently picked up my account for reasons that will be clear in the near future.
I'm sure a lot of people are going to get all legal with this. Activision, owner of Blizzard, ignores contractual obligations when it feels like it.
When the makers of Modern Warfare 2, the best-selling game of ALL TIME, asked for the pay they were promised, Lord Kotick of Activision told them to "get over it".
This is a direct contractual violation. Fortunately, Lord Kotick is rich. Thus the direct violation of written contracts is of less importance than "filming the game" is for those of Lesser Blood.
Yes they have lawyeristic rights, but in the terms of morale they're cardinally wrong.
They owe something to korean pro gaming. This is the main point. If they don't realise it i hope they burn in hell. They're not "good" or "nice" or "caring about e-sports or fans". Just a money-hungry aggregate with no human morale.
But still. That deleted image of him just says "gief meh yo soullll pl0x". And I don't like that kind of people. It looks at least scary. T_T
Returning to the normal topic of the thread - the above link gives us evidence that bosses of Blizzard have no normal human notions of honor, requirement to keep the done promises and thankfulness to those who contributed to one's success. Just a hunger for money.
THAT is why I always said I don't want to have anything in common with ActiBlizz of nowadays anymore.
Yes their old games might be good, but the ActBlizz of now is just awful. I'm with anyone who turns away from them and doesn't buy / appreciate anymore of their games.
This is so strange. Blizzard should be thrilled with publicity. The idea of a video game production company making money from something other than selling their game is ridiculous. Why should this company have to pay for use of what they already purchased? They aren't selling "Starcraft." They are selling the players use of Starcraft. Starcraft is the tool, or the paint that artists are using. Once the tool or paint is purchased, of course craftsmen and artists are going to use it for profit. Why should someone need a license for that? Starcraft isn't a Movie. The storyline should be protected, and the game should be protected from being called something other than Starcraft. That should be the extent of their legal protection.
I predict the appearance of something like Heroes of Newerth on Starcraft's motive....
If they aren't allowed to use what they have contributed to, they'll just find the substitute...
I think in future the game will be sold normally, to prevent such shit. And without such crappy license agreement, instead - with the normal one. And Blizzard will go to unknown destination, with all their shitty requirements.
Its the players who truly create the game. Their work is uncomparable to mere making of the game. Now we realize that not dealing with it leads to a massive controversy. Then, we'll just find the way to pass it around.
Too much speech, and too few real deeds.
prediction (not to be taken too seriously, but however.... )) )
Oct 2011: some fan group makes Starcraft units and look alike graphics at the engine of VALVE-DotA, all called different names but all perfect recognizable.
Nov 2011: online mass tournaments on new mod, as was in CS some days. Koreans recognize the mod and mass play it.
Dec 2011: OGN launches the first tournaments on the newfound game. In the internet rumours spread that by hotkeys and playstyle they have figured out accounts of Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, SAVIOR (!!!!) and others like this. The final tournament of the year meets such semifinals as: Flash vs Jaedong... and Savior vs Bisu! The fans cheer and greet their old idols.
On November 06 2010 03:45 _Quasar_ wrote: I predict the appearance of something like Heroes of Newerth on Starcraft's motive....
If they aren't allowed to use what they have contributed to, they'll just find the substitute...
I think in future the game will be sold normally, to prevent such shit. And without such crappy license agreement, instead - with the normal one. And Blizzard will go to unknown destination, with all their shitty requirements.
Its the players who truly create the game. Their work is uncomparable to mere making of the game. Now we realize that not dealing with it leads to a massive controversy. Then, we'll just find the way to pass it around.
Too much speech, and too few real deeds.
prediction (not to be taken too seriously, but however.... )) )
Oct 2011: some fan group makes Starcraft units and look alike graphics at the engine of VALVE-DotA, all called different names but all perfect recognizable.
Nov 2011: online mass tournaments on new mod, as was in CS some days. Koreans recognize the mod and mass play it.
Dec 2011: OGN launches the first tournaments on the newfound game. In the internet rumours spread that by hotkeys and playstyle they have figured out accounts of Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, SAVIOR (!!!!) and others like this. The final tournament of the year meets such semifinals as: Flash vs Jaedong... and Savior vs Bisu! The fans cheer and greet their old idols.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW with a different engine is not BW. ;;
On November 06 2010 03:45 _Quasar_ wrote: I predict the appearance of something like Heroes of Newerth on Starcraft's motive....
If they aren't allowed to use what they have contributed to, they'll just find the substitute...
I think in future the game will be sold normally, to prevent such shit. And without such crappy license agreement, instead - with the normal one. And Blizzard will go to unknown destination, with all their shitty requirements.
Its the players who truly create the game. Their work is uncomparable to mere making of the game. Now we realize that not dealing with it leads to a massive controversy. Then, we'll just find the way to pass it around.
Too much speech, and too few real deeds.
prediction (not to be taken too seriously, but however.... )) )
Oct 2011: some fan group makes Starcraft units and look alike graphics at the engine of VALVE-DotA, all called different names but all perfect recognizable.
Nov 2011: online mass tournaments on new mod, as was in CS some days. Koreans recognize the mod and mass play it.
Dec 2011: OGN launches the first tournaments on the newfound game. In the internet rumours spread that by hotkeys and playstyle they have figured out accounts of Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, SAVIOR (!!!!) and others like this. The final tournament of the year meets such semifinals as: Flash vs Jaedong... and Savior vs Bisu! The fans cheer and greet their old idols.
I think your not using your head if you fantasy such things.
On November 06 2010 03:31 _Quasar_ wrote: Returning to the normal topic of the thread - the above link gives us evidence that bosses of Blizzard have no normal human notions of honor, requirement to keep the done promises and thankfulness to those who contributed to one's success. Just a hunger for money.
I do not understand how you are concluding this based on Blizzard requiring OGN to honor their licensing rights. Blizzard announced they would be exerting this control a little over a year ago when they started talking about Battlenet 2.0 and began their negotiations with KeSPA, GOMtv, MLG, etc.
On November 06 2010 03:34 pi_rate_pir_ate wrote: This is so strange. Blizzard should be thrilled with publicity. The idea of a video game production company making money from something other than selling their game is ridiculous. Why should this company have to pay for use of what they already purchased? They aren't selling "Starcraft." They are selling the players use of Starcraft. Starcraft is the tool, or the paint that artists are using. Once the tool or paint is purchased, of course craftsmen and artists are going to use it for profit. Why should someone need a license for that? Starcraft isn't a Movie. The storyline should be protected, and the game should be protected from being called something other than Starcraft. That should be the extent of their legal protection.
Starcraft, the game itself is not a tool. The purpose of the game is not for people to use it to whatever their fullest intent is to use it as. They have limitations base on the EULA/TOS, and most if not all written in there can be legally protected. The only thing that comes close to a tool in Starcraft is the editor. There you can use it as a tool to create whatever ideas you so wish desire to use as a map, but even that has some limitations as well. Some of you people don't know or forget that copyright, trademark, are all part of IP law, and most developed countries have laws that protect them.
Blizzard does owe a lot of their success in BW and other RTS to Korean E-sports, but other than that, they don't owe anything else to them. Don't let passion blind your judgement, or at least in legal terms. It does not matter whether you make a profit or not, but if they don't like their product(s) being advertised or broadcasted in some way or even how it is processed, then they have the legal right to intervene to do so.
Like I said earlier before, going to court with this is not the end period. Blizzard/Gretech, OGN, and MBC could not come to an agreement with their negotiations, so they have to take it to the next step where a court can decide and settle this matter. Blizzard/Gretech did not wish to keep negotiating if it wasn't going anywhere, so now they have to settle it by law. If Blizzard wins these cases against the broadcasting companies, then maybe if Blizzard gives them a chance, they can renegotiate for new licenses to broadcast BW. However, it will have to be on Blizzard/Gretech's terms.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but BW with a different engine is not BW. ;;
lol, sc2 is too not BW. -__- Maybe something made with the love for the game could be MORE bw than THIS. T_T
As I said before (answering to previous poster) - korean pro scene's relation to Blizzard's large success is somewhere "near the source". And you can't just go and spit at this source. No nice words saying how kind and right you are will close this from the view of people.
On the EULA topic, anybody has a copy of SC:BW's Terms of Use or End-User License Agreement? I do not know what the ToU/EULA for SC:BW was, but im positive that its not even close to that of SC2, at least the part about Custom Maps and replays and a bunch of other stuffs would likely not be the same. I know in WC3 it wasnt like that.
And im doubtful that any great custom maps can come along and make it big in SC2. 's far as i know, the greatest joy for map-makers are having many people playing their custom maps. And that would likely not be achieved by Blizzard putting it into Premium section (need to pay to play).. Getting paid a little doesnt really matter either, if its really really good money will come along (Icefrog n DotA). Not to mention putting your heart (and lots of time) into creating something just so that some other guys (Blizz) can own all the rights to it ... kinda sucks, at least for me.
This is the dumbest line of thinking possible ever period.
This company sued another company, so I'm going to hate one of their games.
BUT I WILL LOVE THE OTHER GAME THEY MADE LOLOLOLOL
If you think the same people who made SC2 made SC, you are mistaken. You can hate SC2 and love SC without being a hypocrite.
I just have to nitpick because recently I got annoyed at BW elitists (I love both games) claiming this so I pulled out my BW case and matched nearly all the names in the credits with the ones flowing on my screen from SC2. A few programmers went to WoW, nearly all still work with Blizzard, and the major people worked on both games.
Unless you're trying to say they somehow mutated into different people because of the Activision merge, in which case I will remind some ignorant people here that Blizzard still has full control over their own IP and company. (Same deal Bungie has now)
With that said, I absolutely hate how these topics always turn into bashing SC2. (and sometimes bashing BW) Love both games, play SC2 now, still watch both, and I still think this will all work out in a good way.
I don't have any problem with Blizzard taking control of who can broadcast their games. Korea was lucky to have been able to grow a multi-billion dollar industry without having to appease the company who's work they use, and I find it hilarious how many people complain as if Blizzard should just be thankful for the fact that they use their game. It's like... they don't need Korea's help to be successful.
On November 06 2010 06:43 Wolfpox wrote: I don't have any problem with Blizzard taking control of who can broadcast their games. Korea was lucky to have been able to grow a multi-billion dollar industry without having to appease the company who's work they use, and I find it hilarious how many people complain as if Blizzard should just be thankful for the fact that they use their game. It's like... they don't need Korea's help to be successful.
Yet another misinformed opinion.
Its already been stated (and should've been obvious seeing as no one ever paid to watch BW competitions) that theres little / no profit being made directly out of the pro scene.
The money that is currently in the pro scene for BW was invested in by a bunch of big sponsors (the members that make up Kespa). This is an investment for publicity, theres no "multibillion dollar industry". The whole industry can easily collapse just from the licensing demands Blizz are making because the companies could easily decide that they've had enough trying to look good sponsoring BW.
I find it hilarious that people still show ingratitude to the people that kept Brood War going for so long at no profit whatsoever. The first real ever pro scene for E sports (i.e. fulltime gamers on a salary for a team) getting analed and people are cheering.
And its infuriating that people think its a good thing that Blizzard is screwing the Korean pro scene over this way suing OGN and MBC outright. Not even targeting the true source of their "problem" which is Kespa.
And you should have a problem with Blizzard taking control, there is no precedent for this and it will effect Esports in a very significant way if its proven that a game company can come in after 10 years of Esports development and shut the whole thing down.
What if Blizzard stops caring, the scene dies, no one else is even allowed to care.
Legality aside, whether legally blizzard is justified in their actions is still a lack of appreciation for people who've invested millions and made no money out of it save for PERHAPS the boost in publicity from sponsoring the pro scene.
This is the dumbest line of thinking possible ever period.
This company sued another company, so I'm going to hate one of their games.
BUT I WILL LOVE THE OTHER GAME THEY MADE LOLOLOLOL
If you think the same people who made SC2 made SC, you are mistaken. You can hate SC2 and love SC without being a hypocrite.
I just have to nitpick because recently I got annoyed at BW elitists (I love both games) claiming this so I pulled out my BW case and matched nearly all the names in the credits with the ones flowing on my screen from SC2. A few programmers went to WoW, nearly all still work with Blizzard, and the major people worked on both games.
Unless you're trying to say they somehow mutated into different people because of the Activision merge, in which case I will remind some ignorant people here that Blizzard still has full control over their own IP and company. (Same deal Bungie has now)
With that said, I absolutely hate how these topics always turn into bashing SC2. (and sometimes bashing BW) Love both games, play SC2 now, still watch both, and I still think this will all work out in a good way.
If that is true and the same people did both games then explain the horrible horrible campaign storyline. Senility?
Back on topic, this discussion can go on forever. The courts will decide now. Since this is without precedent, these cases will be a huge deal. It boggles my mind how people can claim that legally this is open and close, starcraft is not a movie, there is no way you can prove to me that blizzard owns Jaedong's performance. All they own is the shitty low res graphics, horrible pathfinding, bugs, etc., things that the players wrestle with while they struggle to make it an esport. Definitely NOT the things that make it a viable business. And they should be payed for the use of these of course, say 100$ per tournament? Personally I am rooting for the broadcasters, no prolegue=no professional players. And I would prefer to watch iccup A/B tourneys to semi-pros having a go at the pot in GSL.
This is my opinion, of course what matters now is what the courts decide.
This is the dumbest line of thinking possible ever period.
This company sued another company, so I'm going to hate one of their games.
BUT I WILL LOVE THE OTHER GAME THEY MADE LOLOLOLOL
If you think the same people who made SC2 made SC, you are mistaken. You can hate SC2 and love SC without being a hypocrite.
I just have to nitpick because recently I got annoyed at BW elitists (I love both games) claiming this so I pulled out my BW case and matched nearly all the names in the credits with the ones flowing on my screen from SC2. A few programmers went to WoW, nearly all still work with Blizzard, and the major people worked on both games.
Unless you're trying to say they somehow mutated into different people because of the Activision merge, in which case I will remind some ignorant people here that Blizzard still has full control over their own IP and company. (Same deal Bungie has now)
With that said, I absolutely hate how these topics always turn into bashing SC2. (and sometimes bashing BW) Love both games, play SC2 now, still watch both, and I still think this will all work out in a good way.
If that is true and the same people did both games then explain the horrible horrible campaign storyline. Senility?
Well why people think the story is horrible is just diverting the argument- which was that one can hate SC2 and not SCBW because they're not the same people. Given that most of the folks are mostly the same, then yes you are hating and loving the same people, which seems somewhat hypocritical.
I guess it will be this section of the EULA that will be the contested piece:
2. Ownership. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Program and any and all copies thereof (including but not limited to any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, and “applets” incorporated into the Program) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors. The Program is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions and other laws. All rights are reserved. The Program contains certain licensed materials and Blizzard’s licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.
3. Responsibilities of End User. A. Subject to the Grant of License hereinabove, you may not, in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code, modify, disassemble, decompile, create derivative works based on the Program, or remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Program without the prior consent, in writing, of Blizzard. B. The Program is licensed to you as a single product. Its component parts may not be separated for use on more than one computer. C. You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not be entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Program to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Program to others without the prior written consent of Blizzard. (ii) exploit the Program or any of its parts for any commercial purpose including, but not limited to, use at a cyber café, computer gaming center or any other location-based site. Blizzard may offer a separate Site License Agreement to permit you to make the Program available for commercial use; contact Blizzard for details; (iii) use or allow third parties to use the Editor and the New Materials created thereby for commercial purposes including, but not limited to, distribution of New Materials on a stand alone basis or packaged with other software or hardware through any and all distribution channels, including, but not limited to, retail sales and on-line electronic distribution without the express written consent of Blizzard; and (iv) host or provide matchmaking services for the Program or emulate or redirect the communication protocols used by Blizzard in the network feature of the Program, through protocol emulation, tunneling, modifying or adding components to the Program, use of a utility program or any other techniques now known or hereafter developed, for any purpose including, but not limited to network play over the Internet, network play utilizing commercial or non-commercial gaming networks or as part of content aggregation networks without the prior written consent of Blizzard
Including this piece:
I hereby acknowledge that I have read and understand the foregoing License Agreement and agree that the action of installing the Program is an acknowledgment of my agreement to be bound by the terms and conditions of the License Agreement contained herein. I also acknowledge and agree that this License Agreement is the complete and exclusive statement of the agreement between Blizzard and I and that the License Agreement supersedes any prior or contemporaneous agreement, either oral or written, and any other communications between Blizzard and myself.
On November 06 2010 01:44 darmousseh wrote: Blizzard will win obviously, they not only have the legal right to protect their IP, but they have international law at their side. Also sometimes a company can claim that the licencing was outrageous, however, ogn already obtained rights previously, but chose not to renew them. Gretech will easily win this. As far as the future of OSL, what i predict is that the court will issue and injunction to stop the league, ogn will meet with gretech the next day and an arrangement will be met swiftly and then the court case will be abandoned.
Anytime someone posts like this it makes my eyes roll. Sadly this won't change.
I will leave it at this: there is a lot more to it than just Blizzard trying to protect their IP rights. -_-
As for my earlier statements. I thought you guys were talking about Blizzard as a whole. If your previous comments were only in relation to e-sports then, yeah I agree.
Without KeSPA and people like Rose.of.Dream. e-Sports wouldn't be where it is today. :/
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
I read the article on Fomos (known to be slightly biased, pro-Blizzard), there was like literally several hundreds of replies, mostly written in e-slang with cleverly disguised derogatory terms... but it roughly looks like (and percentages don't add up because some people have multiple opinions):
25%: good let's hope SC1 dies so we can watch SC2 in peace 25%: fuck off Blizzard let us play whatever game we want 30%: GOM is just as bad as Kespa I hope both of you die 50%: Blizzard's going to win this, Kespa so stupid 95%: No matter who wins, fuck you Kespa
Basically, almost everyone wants Kespa dead. No question about it. Most Korean netizens seem to be agreeing in the one argument that Kespa is the root cause of this dispute (which is true IMO). I'm pretty sure Korean netizens also watch a whole bunch of other e-sports (non-SCBW) so they don't hate the broadcasting companies (OGN and MBC) so much. No matter how greedy Blizzard is or how GOM is betraying the country, FUCK YOU KESPA.
On November 06 2010 09:43 OpticalShot wrote: I read the article on Fomos (known to be slightly biased, pro-Blizzard), there was like literally several hundreds of replies, mostly written in e-slang with cleverly disguised derogatory terms... but it roughly looks like (and percentages don't add up because some people have multiple opinions):
25%: good let's hope SC1 dies so we can watch SC2 in peace 25%: fuck off Blizzard let us play whatever game we want 30%: GOM is just as bad as Kespa I hope both of you die 50%: Blizzard's going to win this, Kespa so stupid 95%: No matter who wins, fuck you Kespa
Basically, almost everyone wants Kespa dead. No question about it. Most Korean netizens seem to be agreeing in the one argument that Kespa is the root cause of this dispute (which is true IMO). I'm pretty sure Korean netizens also watch a whole bunch of other e-sports (non-SCBW) so they don't hate the broadcasting companies (OGN and MBC) so much. No matter how greedy Blizzard is or how GOM is betraying the country, FUCK YOU KESPA.
we'll try looking for a poll on Daily E-sports(supposed to be Pro-KeSPA I believe)...if its the same then korean netizens really don't like KeSPA....
I wonder,is it blind rage or that they know better.
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I find that quite difficult to believe. GSL > OSL in viewers? IIRC GSL isn't even on television, how can it possibly have more viewers than the OSL Finals which was in China? I'm not having a go at you but where are you getting your numbers?
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I find that quite difficult to believe. GSL > OSL in viewers? IIRC GSL isn't even on television, how can it possibly have more viewers than the OSL Finals which was in China? I'm not having a go at you but where are you getting your numbers?
Especially considering the OGN stream is available for free internationally. It is inaccurate to claim that the views for GSL were more than the OSL finals because OGN does not release the figures for their stream PLUS noone knows for sure how many viewers there were on the Chinese language streams.
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I find that quite difficult to believe. GSL > OSL in viewers? IIRC GSL isn't even on television, how can it possibly have more viewers than the OSL Finals which was in China? I'm not having a go at you but where are you getting your numbers?
Especially considering the OGN stream is available for free internationally. It is inaccurate to claim that the views for GSL were more than the OSL finals because OGN does not release the figures for their stream PLUS noone knows for sure how many viewers there were on the Chinese language streams.
On November 06 2010 09:43 OpticalShot wrote: I read the article on Fomos (known to be slightly biased, pro-Blizzard), there was like literally several hundreds of replies, mostly written in e-slang with cleverly disguised derogatory terms... but it roughly looks like (and percentages don't add up because some people have multiple opinions):
25%: good let's hope SC1 dies so we can watch SC2 in peace 25%: fuck off Blizzard let us play whatever game we want 30%: GOM is just as bad as Kespa I hope both of you die 50%: Blizzard's going to win this, Kespa so stupid 95%: No matter who wins, fuck you Kespa
Basically, almost everyone wants Kespa dead. No question about it. Most Korean netizens seem to be agreeing in the one argument that Kespa is the root cause of this dispute (which is true IMO). I'm pretty sure Korean netizens also watch a whole bunch of other e-sports (non-SCBW) so they don't hate the broadcasting companies (OGN and MBC) so much. No matter how greedy Blizzard is or how GOM is betraying the country, FUCK YOU KESPA.
we'll try looking for a poll on Daily E-sports(supposed to be Pro-KeSPA I believe)...if its the same then korean netizens really don't like KeSPA....
I wonder,is it blind rage or that they know better.
Of course they know it better. They are living there, they saw e-sports grow. Most of replies in this thread are blind rage.
notice - blizzard is only in 25% said to be normal. I suppose at least 37.5% (to be average) know that blizzard is shit, but they dislike KeSPA more.
That's sad. As I've seen the playing koreans - they're mostly foolish and know no manners - no matter how good they play. Maybe they kind of deserve this then. -___-
But still, I think that they are mistaken. KeSPA's not so bad as they think. It's been doing way more to SC than blizzard. -___-
On November 06 2010 19:50 _Quasar_ wrote: notice - blizzard is only in 25% said to be normal. I suppose at least 37.5% (to be average) know that blizzard is shit, but they dislike KeSPA more.
That's sad. As I've seen the playing koreans - they're mostly foolish and know no manners - no matter how good they play. Maybe they kind of deserve this then. -___-
But still, I think that they are mistaken. KeSPA's not so bad as they think. It's been doing way more to SC than blizzard. -___-
You say they are mistaken.KeSPA represents the E-Sports of their country,I'm pretty sure they know more about the stuff that happens in their country.
you have to give them credit though....they are at least honest about what they say when they flame whichever side they oppose.
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I find that quite difficult to believe. GSL > OSL in viewers? IIRC GSL isn't even on television, how can it possibly have more viewers than the OSL Finals which was in China? I'm not having a go at you but where are you getting your numbers?
This is why I hate it when people crop quotes, people miss out on the rest of the posts, this was my original post: "Regardless of this, I will let the views of the GSL be an indicator of how well SC2 is doing as an esport already. 3 million have already watched boxer vs nada (excluding live views) 2 million watched the finals from S1 (excluding live views) since the RO32 each game has been averaging 500k views on the VOD (excluding live views) boxer/nada pull in on average 1.5 million views (excluding live views)
Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...)"
Then somebody chimed in and said this: "I don't remember the source but the TV ratings was along the lines of 1.2mil or so?I don't remember the source."
Then I said "According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular."
Like I said, according to any numbers that we have access to, SC2 is just as popular as BW in korea (or nearly).
On November 06 2010 19:50 _Quasar_ wrote: notice - blizzard is only in 25% said to be normal. I suppose at least 37.5% (to be average) know that blizzard is shit, but they dislike KeSPA more.
That's sad. As I've seen the playing koreans - they're mostly foolish and know no manners - no matter how good they play. Maybe they kind of deserve this then. -___-
But still, I think that they are mistaken. KeSPA's not so bad as they think. It's been doing way more to SC than blizzard. -___-
On November 06 2010 19:50 _Quasar_ wrote: notice - blizzard is only in 25% said to be normal. I suppose at least 37.5% (to be average) know that blizzard is shit, but they dislike KeSPA more.
That's sad. As I've seen the playing koreans - they're mostly foolish and know no manners - no matter how good they play. Maybe they kind of deserve this then. -___-
But still, I think that they are mistaken. KeSPA's not so bad as they think. It's been doing way more to SC than blizzard. -___-
It is the beginnings of why korea started to dislike kespa (written by a korean) back in 2007.
I haven't read this word for word...but I don't think it was mentioned at all that,from what I heard KeSPA really went batshit when the head of the SK group became the chairman and ever since there has been an ongoing struggle between the SK group and the CJ group or something...
Its only a rumor as far as I know and don't take this as evidence until its confirmed by someone.
On November 06 2010 19:50 _Quasar_ wrote: notice - blizzard is only in 25% said to be normal. I suppose at least 37.5% (to be average) know that blizzard is shit, but they dislike KeSPA more.
That's sad. As I've seen the playing koreans - they're mostly foolish and know no manners - no matter how good they play. Maybe they kind of deserve this then. -___-
But still, I think that they are mistaken. KeSPA's not so bad as they think. It's been doing way more to SC than blizzard. -___-
You sound like you know more about Korean E-sport association better than people who live in Korea, people who saw e-sport grow in Korea, people who saw the creation of KeSPA, people who speak korean and then you say korean players are fools, have no manners and don't respect other players?
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I find that quite difficult to believe. GSL > OSL in viewers? IIRC GSL isn't even on television, how can it possibly have more viewers than the OSL Finals which was in China? I'm not having a go at you but where are you getting your numbers?
This is why I hate it when people crop quotes, people miss out on the rest of the posts, this was my original post: "Regardless of this, I will let the views of the GSL be an indicator of how well SC2 is doing as an esport already. 3 million have already watched boxer vs nada (excluding live views) 2 million watched the finals from S1 (excluding live views) since the RO32 each game has been averaging 500k views on the VOD (excluding live views) boxer/nada pull in on average 1.5 million views (excluding live views)
Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...)"
Then somebody chimed in and said this: "I don't remember the source but the TV ratings was along the lines of 1.2mil or so?I don't remember the source."
Then I said "According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular."
Like I said, according to any numbers that we have access to, SC2 is just as popular as BW in korea (or nearly).
So despite knowing that there are vital statistics you cant get a hold of your still willing to conclude that *the numbers* show that SC2 has reached or surpassed BW.... I'm sure someone else can come up some crazy analogy making fun of your conclusion but i just can't begin to fathom your thought process that lead you to these conclusions... You source gomtv showing that the OSL had a mere 500k views, but choose to ignore the fact that it was broadcast live by OGN in Korea and its chinese partner in china. You don't even consider the 10's of thousands of people who rolled up to the venue to truly watch it live..
All in all i suppose my main point is you that can twist numbers around all you want but in the end it's simply ridiculous to try and infer that SC2 which hasn't been out very long and is not even broadcast on television is just as or more popular than BW.
PS: I'm not sure what you mean by hating people cropping posts. I quoted your entire comment.
You sound like you know more about Korean E-sport association better than people who live in Korea, people who saw e-sport grow in Korea, people who saw the creation of KeSPA, people who speak korean and then you say korean players are fools, have no manners and don't respect other players?
Are you stupid?
I say that for whom I've seen, they don't seem too smart -___- And therefore they may not understand what they talking about. -__-
And I doubt that the people who play/watch now, witnessed the creation of KeSPA. I think there are 95% of them who haven't even seen Boxer/Nada/iloveoov live at their prime.
You sound like you know more about Korean E-sport association better than people who live in Korea, people who saw e-sport grow in Korea, people who saw the creation of KeSPA, people who speak korean and then you say korean players are fools, have no manners and don't respect other players?
Are you stupid?
I say that for whom I've seen, they don't seem too smart -___- And therefore they may not understand what they talking about. -__-
And I doubt that the people who play/watch now, witnessed the creation of KeSPA. I think there are 95% of them who haven't even seen Boxer/Nada/iloveoov live at their prime.
Thinking is not knowing...Even I have thrown some thoughts out only to have my ass bitten by people with hard facts.
Also lot of their viewers are from the age of 18-30...so yeah a lot of them do know the history of KeSPA quite well.
You sound like you know more about Korean E-sport association better than people who live in Korea, people who saw e-sport grow in Korea, people who saw the creation of KeSPA, people who speak korean and then you say korean players are fools, have no manners and don't respect other players?
Are you stupid?
I say that for whom I've seen, they don't seem too smart -___- And therefore they may not understand what they talking about. -__-
And I doubt that the people who play/watch now, witnessed the creation of KeSPA. I think there are 95% of them who haven't even seen Boxer/Nada/iloveoov live at their prime.
So...Koreans who have more info than you will ever have about KeSPA and the E-sports in their country are ignorant and "not very smart" because they have an opinion that is different than yours, which seems to be based purely on love for BW without any objectivity? Not sure they are the ones not understanding.
This whole situation is horrible and the only people that will really get hurt in this are the "small people" (viewers and players) because all the parties involved are greedy (either for control or money) and pigheaded.
BW deserves to survive and thrive until it dies it's own "natural" death so in the end I'm not siding with anyone and just want for both games to co-exist. Both are clearly popular and have their place in E-sports. It's impossible to know what's really going on because we are in no position to be fully informed and because neither side is above lying and spinning the truth.
Discussing isn't the same as stating opinions as fact and attacking the other side for not agreeing. That's just immature and sad.
You sound like you know more about Korean E-sport association better than people who live in Korea, people who saw e-sport grow in Korea, people who saw the creation of KeSPA, people who speak korean and then you say korean players are fools, have no manners and don't respect other players?
Are you stupid?
I say that for whom I've seen, they don't seem too smart -___- And therefore they may not understand what they talking about. -__-
And I doubt that the people who play/watch now, witnessed the creation of KeSPA. I think there are 95% of them who haven't even seen Boxer/Nada/iloveoov live at their prime.
Of course netizens hate Kespa, that is human behaviour, they are fans of the players not of the corporations, they resent some "mistreat" that Kespa have done before even if it doesnt affect the whole BW scenario like the situation now, let them without BW and all of them wil be begging for another Kespa, at the end it doesnt mean that they are in favour of Blizzard.
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I dont even know how you can infer that conclusion about SC2 reached or surpassed BW popularity when the main way of broadcasting of OGN and MBC are different than GOM, please go and see the TV ratings of that event and then you can conclude something, sorry but It is comparing apples with oranges, if the final of the GSL has less viewers than Boxer vs Nestea or Boxer vs Nada, then you can conclude that it is not even about SC2 but a phenomenom named Boxer. Lets wait and see.
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I dont even know how you can infer that conclusion about SC2 reached or surpassed BW popularity when the main way of broadcasting of OGN and MBC are different than GOM, please go and see the TV ratings of that event and then you can conclude something, sorry but It is comparing apples with oranges, if the final of the GSL has less viewers than Boxer vs Nestea or Boxer vs Nada, then you can conclude that it is not even about SC2 but a phenomenom named Boxer. Lets wait and see.
GSL1 finals vod has 1.9 Million views. Koreans are interested in Sc2
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I dont even know how you can infer that conclusion about SC2 reached or surpassed BW popularity when the main way of broadcasting of OGN and MBC are different than GOM, please go and see the TV ratings of that event and then you can conclude something, sorry but It is comparing apples with oranges, if the final of the GSL has less viewers than Boxer vs Nestea or Boxer vs Nada, then you can conclude that it is not even about SC2 but a phenomenom named Boxer. Lets wait and see.
GSL1 finals vod has 1.9 Million views. Koreans are interested in Sc2
SC2 is popular in Korea, nothing to disagree about it, but the afirmation that TheRabidDeer made has not base.
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I dont even know how you can infer that conclusion about SC2 reached or surpassed BW popularity when the main way of broadcasting of OGN and MBC are different than GOM, please go and see the TV ratings of that event and then you can conclude something, sorry but It is comparing apples with oranges, if the final of the GSL has less viewers than Boxer vs Nestea or Boxer vs Nada, then you can conclude that it is not even about SC2 but a phenomenom named Boxer. Lets wait and see.
GSL1 finals vod has 1.9 Million views. Koreans are interested in Sc2
SC2 is popular in Korea, nothing to disagree about it, but the afirmation that TheRabidDeer made has not base.
Ahh ok. Oh well, here's hoping that sc2 could become even bigger
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I dont even know how you can infer that conclusion about SC2 reached or surpassed BW popularity when the main way of broadcasting of OGN and MBC are different than GOM, please go and see the TV ratings of that event and then you can conclude something, sorry but It is comparing apples with oranges, if the final of the GSL has less viewers than Boxer vs Nestea or Boxer vs Nada, then you can conclude that it is not even about SC2 but a phenomenom named Boxer. Lets wait and see.
GSL1 finals vod has 1.9 Million views. Koreans are interested in Sc2
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I find that quite difficult to believe. GSL > OSL in viewers? IIRC GSL isn't even on television, how can it possibly have more viewers than the OSL Finals which was in China? I'm not having a go at you but where are you getting your numbers?
This is why I hate it when people crop quotes, people miss out on the rest of the posts, this was my original post: "Regardless of this, I will let the views of the GSL be an indicator of how well SC2 is doing as an esport already. 3 million have already watched boxer vs nada (excluding live views) 2 million watched the finals from S1 (excluding live views) since the RO32 each game has been averaging 500k views on the VOD (excluding live views) boxer/nada pull in on average 1.5 million views (excluding live views)
Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...)"
Then somebody chimed in and said this: "I don't remember the source but the TV ratings was along the lines of 1.2mil or so?I don't remember the source."
Then I said "According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular."
Like I said, according to any numbers that we have access to, SC2 is just as popular as BW in korea (or nearly).
So despite knowing that there are vital statistics you cant get a hold of your still willing to conclude that *the numbers* show that SC2 has reached or surpassed BW.... I'm sure someone else can come up some crazy analogy making fun of your conclusion but i just can't begin to fathom your thought process that lead you to these conclusions... You source gomtv showing that the OSL had a mere 500k views, but choose to ignore the fact that it was broadcast live by OGN in Korea and its chinese partner in china. You don't even consider the 10's of thousands of people who rolled up to the venue to truly watch it live..
All in all i suppose my main point is you that can twist numbers around all you want but in the end it's simply ridiculous to try and infer that SC2 which hasn't been out very long and is not even broadcast on television is just as or more popular than BW.
PS: I'm not sure what you mean by hating people cropping posts. I quoted your entire comment.
Other people decided to crop my post so that in the end all you saw was that part of it, which means you didnt see the whole message resulting in your post.
My only point in this post, and I even outright say that I dont have all of the numbers, that based on the information that we have SC2 is doing fantastic for only being out for a couple of months and having no TV channels.
I have twisted no numbers, I have shown all numbers that I have and the source of all of the numbers. If there is more information about that event (or other recent BW events) then feel free to post them. All I know is that 3.3 million koreans watched boxer vs nada online with the VOD (not live) and that there are only about 49 million south koreans in total, so that has to be a pretty significant number.
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I find that quite difficult to believe. GSL > OSL in viewers? IIRC GSL isn't even on television, how can it possibly have more viewers than the OSL Finals which was in China? I'm not having a go at you but where are you getting your numbers?
This is why I hate it when people crop quotes, people miss out on the rest of the posts, this was my original post: "Regardless of this, I will let the views of the GSL be an indicator of how well SC2 is doing as an esport already. 3 million have already watched boxer vs nada (excluding live views) 2 million watched the finals from S1 (excluding live views) since the RO32 each game has been averaging 500k views on the VOD (excluding live views) boxer/nada pull in on average 1.5 million views (excluding live views)
Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...)"
Then somebody chimed in and said this: "I don't remember the source but the TV ratings was along the lines of 1.2mil or so?I don't remember the source."
Then I said "According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular."
Like I said, according to any numbers that we have access to, SC2 is just as popular as BW in korea (or nearly).
So despite knowing that there are vital statistics you cant get a hold of your still willing to conclude that *the numbers* show that SC2 has reached or surpassed BW.... I'm sure someone else can come up some crazy analogy making fun of your conclusion but i just can't begin to fathom your thought process that lead you to these conclusions... You source gomtv showing that the OSL had a mere 500k views, but choose to ignore the fact that it was broadcast live by OGN in Korea and its chinese partner in china. You don't even consider the 10's of thousands of people who rolled up to the venue to truly watch it live..
All in all i suppose my main point is you that can twist numbers around all you want but in the end it's simply ridiculous to try and infer that SC2 which hasn't been out very long and is not even broadcast on television is just as or more popular than BW.
PS: I'm not sure what you mean by hating people cropping posts. I quoted your entire comment.
Other people decided to crop my post so that in the end all you saw was that part of it, which means you didnt see the whole message resulting in your post.
My only point in this post, and I even outright say that I dont have all of the numbers, that based on the information that we have SC2 is doing fantastic for only being out for a couple of months and having no TV channels.
I have twisted no numbers, I have shown all numbers that I have and the source of all of the numbers. If there is more information about that event (or other recent BW events) then feel free to post them. All I know is that 3.3 million koreans watched boxer vs nada online with the VOD (not live) and that there are only about 49 million south koreans in total, so that has to be a pretty significant number.
1/ Its Boxer vs Nada.. It may be a little exaggerated but these guys are possibly even more famous than SC2 itself.
2/ Im very interested in knowing how you find out that 3.3 million Koreans watched that VoD.
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I find that quite difficult to believe. GSL > OSL in viewers? IIRC GSL isn't even on television, how can it possibly have more viewers than the OSL Finals which was in China? I'm not having a go at you but where are you getting your numbers?
This is why I hate it when people crop quotes, people miss out on the rest of the posts, this was my original post: "Regardless of this, I will let the views of the GSL be an indicator of how well SC2 is doing as an esport already. 3 million have already watched boxer vs nada (excluding live views) 2 million watched the finals from S1 (excluding live views) since the RO32 each game has been averaging 500k views on the VOD (excluding live views) boxer/nada pull in on average 1.5 million views (excluding live views)
Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...)"
Then somebody chimed in and said this: "I don't remember the source but the TV ratings was along the lines of 1.2mil or so?I don't remember the source."
Then I said "According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular."
Like I said, according to any numbers that we have access to, SC2 is just as popular as BW in korea (or nearly).
So despite knowing that there are vital statistics you cant get a hold of your still willing to conclude that *the numbers* show that SC2 has reached or surpassed BW.... I'm sure someone else can come up some crazy analogy making fun of your conclusion but i just can't begin to fathom your thought process that lead you to these conclusions... You source gomtv showing that the OSL had a mere 500k views, but choose to ignore the fact that it was broadcast live by OGN in Korea and its chinese partner in china. You don't even consider the 10's of thousands of people who rolled up to the venue to truly watch it live..
All in all i suppose my main point is you that can twist numbers around all you want but in the end it's simply ridiculous to try and infer that SC2 which hasn't been out very long and is not even broadcast on television is just as or more popular than BW.
PS: I'm not sure what you mean by hating people cropping posts. I quoted your entire comment.
Other people decided to crop my post so that in the end all you saw was that part of it, which means you didnt see the whole message resulting in your post.
My only point in this post, and I even outright say that I dont have all of the numbers, that based on the information that we have SC2 is doing fantastic for only being out for a couple of months and having no TV channels.
I have twisted no numbers, I have shown all numbers that I have and the source of all of the numbers. If there is more information about that event (or other recent BW events) then feel free to post them. All I know is that 3.3 million koreans watched boxer vs nada online with the VOD (not live) and that there are only about 49 million south koreans in total, so that has to be a pretty significant number.
1/ Its Boxer vs Nada.. It may be a little exaggerated but these guys are possibly even more famous than SC2 itself.
2/ Im very interested in knowing how you find out that 3.3 million Koreans watched that VoD.
The latest in a long line of blizzard ripping apart anyone who wants to profit off of stuff that belongs to them. Blizzard makes great games, but they protect their properties. Just ask the modding community how ethically wonderful Blizzard is.
On November 07 2010 05:11 _Quasar_ wrote: lol. didn't read, don't care about sc2. give me more proleague and finally, JvF pls.
ok a few things:
1)Please read. 2)Nobody said anything about sc2 other than its ratings which is very high. 3)Blizzard won't deny PL(they care enough about the public to not riot against them) 4)you're a masochist....you just want to see Jaedong get raped by Flash over and over again.
On November 07 2010 10:36 SwiftSpear wrote: The latest in a long line of blizzard ripping apart anyone who wants to profit off of stuff that belongs to them. Blizzard makes great games, but they protect their properties. Just ask the modding community how ethically wonderful Blizzard is.
Yes, it is Blizzard being unethical, not the people profiting off of stuff that doesn't belong to them.
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I dont even know how you can infer that conclusion about SC2 reached or surpassed BW popularity when the main way of broadcasting of OGN and MBC are different than GOM, please go and see the TV ratings of that event and then you can conclude something, sorry but It is comparing apples with oranges, if the final of the GSL has less viewers than Boxer vs Nestea or Boxer vs Nada, then you can conclude that it is not even about SC2 but a phenomenom named Boxer. Lets wait and see.
GSL1 finals vod has 1.9 Million views. Koreans are interested in Sc2
1.9 million only koreans?
When the Korean vod has 1.9 million views on a Korean website and there are English versions of the vod out there, I think it is safe to say that at least 90% of the viewers are from Korea.
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I dont even know how you can infer that conclusion about SC2 reached or surpassed BW popularity when the main way of broadcasting of OGN and MBC are different than GOM, please go and see the TV ratings of that event and then you can conclude something, sorry but It is comparing apples with oranges, if the final of the GSL has less viewers than Boxer vs Nestea or Boxer vs Nada, then you can conclude that it is not even about SC2 but a phenomenom named Boxer. Lets wait and see.
GSL1 finals vod has 1.9 Million views. Koreans are interested in Sc2
1.9 million only koreans?
Separate vods and commentary for the two communities (Korean and non-korean) so yeah, pretty safe to assume it's mostly Koreans.
Unfortunately(or fortunately) this will likely come out on Blizzard's favour.
Korea has good copyright laws regarding original developers due to K-pop culture being so wide spread in east Asia. If they actually battle it out in court, it is highly likely that Blizzard will get better deal out of this.
Since it seems like KeSPA is trying to delay the inevitable as long as possible and being uncooperative in general, I hope they get dismantled after this event, and a new organization (not headed by blizzard) of sort takes over. Come on, its about damn time they put SC2 on tv already.
On November 07 2010 14:13 scion wrote: Unfortunately(or fortunately) this will likely come out on Blizzard's favour.
Korea has good copyright laws regarding original developers due to K-pop culture being so wide spread in east Asia. If they actually battle it out in court, it is highly likely that Blizzard will get better deal out of this.
KeSPA will probably have the Ministry of Culture, Sports, and Tourism on their side, however.
On November 07 2010 10:36 SwiftSpear wrote: The latest in a long line of blizzard ripping apart anyone who wants to profit off of stuff that belongs to them. Blizzard makes great games, but they protect their properties. Just ask the modding community how ethically wonderful Blizzard is.
Yes, it is Blizzard being unethical, not the people profiting off of stuff that doesn't belong to them.
Mmm, I was aiming for the word "morally"
Modders generally don't make profit, aside from the profit of gaining fans, and working with gaming technologies.
On November 07 2010 10:36 SwiftSpear wrote: The latest in a long line of blizzard ripping apart anyone who wants to profit off of stuff that belongs to them. Blizzard makes great games, but they protect their properties. Just ask the modding community how ethically wonderful Blizzard is.
Yes, it is Blizzard being unethical, not the people profiting off of stuff that doesn't belong to them.
Mmm, I was aiming for the word "morally"
Modders generally don't make profit, aside from the profit of gaining fans, and working with gaming technologies.
Then your post doesnt really make sense o.O "The latest in a long line of blizzard ripping apart anyone who wants to profit off of stuff that belongs to them. Blizzard makes great games, but they protect their properties. Just ask the modding community how ethically wonderful Blizzard is."
Also, which modders have had issues with blizzard? I mean... D2 has tons and tons of mods out for it.
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I dont even know how you can infer that conclusion about SC2 reached or surpassed BW popularity when the main way of broadcasting of OGN and MBC are different than GOM, please go and see the TV ratings of that event and then you can conclude something, sorry but It is comparing apples with oranges, if the final of the GSL has less viewers than Boxer vs Nestea or Boxer vs Nada, then you can conclude that it is not even about SC2 but a phenomenom named Boxer. Lets wait and see.
GSL1 finals vod has 1.9 Million views. Koreans are interested in Sc2
On November 07 2010 05:11 _Quasar_ wrote: lol. didn't read, don't care about sc2. give me more proleague and finally, JvF pls.
You should care. You will realize later on why.
I meant I care, but I'm freaking tired of it. I've already understood who acti-blizz are (i don't want to swear so i'll don't repeat who). So I'm just playing and watching SC nd that's all.
On November 07 2010 14:13 scion wrote: Unfortunately(or fortunately) this will likely come out on Blizzard's favour.
Korea has good copyright laws regarding original developers due to K-pop culture being so wide spread in east Asia. If they actually battle it out in court, it is highly likely that Blizzard will get better deal out of this.
KeSPA will probably have the Ministry of Culture, Sports, and Tourism on their side, however.
What? what makes you say that? You can't just make unsupported claim on how the government would help KeSPA. KeSPA is NOT involved with government body in any shape or form.
I can just claim nonsenses too. What if record label/tv stations/movie industry got involved because the case might set a bad precedent in ip right issues?
I just hope that they (ministry) support this gaming culture, that is by all means theirs, not Blizzards, and if Blizzard's partially, then BY NO MEANS Activision's at all.
Yes, KeSPA may be bad and stupid (although i think their 3 latest conroversal decisions - in JvF MSL power outage, in BackHo's pause-then-"ppp", and in Flash's-opponent-not-appaering-on-map --- were right). But Blizzard is acting simply dishonestly to the culture that gave them VERY much. Starcraft 2 could be such many-selling and -watched only by means of this culture. So, they owe them at least 45% SC2 sales, and as I've already pointed, also the large part of popularity that WC3 gained, and from WC3, lets not forget, followed World of Warcraft.
You finally get paid for that by getting the same from some other side. That's the true law of life, not the artificial "laws of business" that regard only money and consuming, nothing else.
On November 07 2010 18:04 ffreakk wrote: Oh? You may want to check out Kespa relationship with Ministry of Culture. E-sport is Korean's culture, mind..
And even apart from that.. If you think that big firms and governments have nothing to do with each other, you are already wrong.
hmmm....I don't know how great the relationship between them is other than the fact that they approved them as korea's official E-sports association.
KeSPA was founded in 2000 after the approval of the Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism. Its official goal is to make e-Sports an official sporting event, and to solidify the commercial position of e-Sports in all sectors. The organization manages the broadcasting of e-Sports, the formation of new events, and the conditions in which progamers work, as well as encourage the playing of video games by the general population.
I've been thinking about this for a while and I have realized what it is that pisses me off the most about this.
If it were an issue of protecting their rights, Blizzard would be fine if everything could me measured monetarily. The thing is there's an undefinable quantity at stake. StarCraft 2 wouldn't be a big deal if it weren't for esports. Esports wouldn't be the way it was without OGN and MBC. These are companies that have increased the sales of SC2 indirectly, but I would guess a great deal. This attack by Blizzard feels as though its against some of its closest allies. I think this is what makes it so distasteful, dishonorable, disgusting, or whatever other diss you prefer.
sc2 DOES matter as a content of ActiBlizz's success, and its popularity is almost fully contributed to Korea.
If they attacked some other community, that helped them in something else than SC, but in order to promote SC2, it would be bad, but understandable. And there could be arguing about how much that imaginary company contributed to whole Blizz's success - maybe they don't need that "branch" of success. But they show now to us that SC2 does matter. And attacking someone who gave them the popularity of SC2 is just plainly an action full of shit.
And everyone who plays Blizzard games should now understand it.
On November 07 2010 18:10 _Quasar_ wrote: I just hope that they (ministry) support this gaming culture, that is by all means theirs, not Blizzards, and if Blizzard's partially, then BY NO MEANS Activision's at all.
Yes, KeSPA may be bad and stupid (although i think their 3 latest conroversal decisions - in JvF MSL power outage, in BackHo's pause-then-"ppp", and in Flash's-opponent-not-appaering-on-map --- were right). But Blizzard is acting simply dishonestly to the culture that gave them VERY much. Starcraft 2 could be such many-selling and -watched only by means of this culture. So, they owe them at least 45% SC2 sales, and as I've already pointed, also the large part of popularity that WC3 gained, and from WC3, lets not forget, followed World of Warcraft.
You finally get paid for that by getting the same from some other side. That's the true law of life, not the artificial "laws of business" that regard only money and consuming, nothing else.
Why do you keep posting bullshit. First you say Koreans have no idea what they talking about now this?
First of all, you talk like Blizzard did nothing for gaming culture. They are game developers, they made SC1 which instantly became hit in Korea. And because the game was so popular it started appearing on korean television. And because it started appearing on korean television great players came along (Boxer, grrr, Nada), great teams were formed and they were sponsored by various companies. Then later in 2003 these teams and sponsors decided to create this KeSPA organization. Blizzard is THE reason starcraft is popular - because they made it. Koreans realize that, but at the same time they hate Blizzard for suing broadcasting companies which results in "Fuck KeSPA" and "I don't like what Blizzard is doing".
How can you say Blizzard is dishonest? They made the game, it's their IP. It was KeSPA who said "we have players therefore broadcasting rights belong to us and starcraft doesn't belong to blizzard because it became a culture in Korea". Now my opinion may be different from people in this forum, but I think that is complete bullshit.
Do you realize that KeSPA has absolutely no intention of supporting it? Where do you get that KeSPA was the reason of WC3 popularity? And last time I checked nobody is playing World of Warcraft in Korea.
The impression I'm getting from most of the people in this thread is that Blizzard isnt allowed to protect their intellectual property...
If you invested millions of dollars into developing something, and release it, would you be okay with third party companies profiting off of your work, without your consent and/or without recieving a cut of the profits? No, you wouldn't. I don't care how much money you have in the bank, you would protect the rights to the property you have created. If you don't, well, you won't be in business for long.
You guys act like Blizzard is doing some bastardly sin, but what you're forgetting is that precidents need to be set. If one company can continously disobey Blizzards legal rights, it allows more to follow suit. Once this happens, where does it stop?
Sorry guys, but this is the way the world works, get used to it.
Do you think that TV broadcasting companies just show up to sports arenas with cameras, and film and broadcast the games live, generate millions of dollars in advertising, and then just pocket everything they make? No. They pay for the rights to broadcast. Does this destroy a sporting community? No, it allows the distribution of profits between the people working to broadcast the sport, and the people who actually invest and maintain said sports league.
Nothing in this world is free. I'm sure that I am just preaching to deaf ears for the most part though.
the only reason this is going so far is because both sides are looking for a situation that benefits their side and their side alone.
@Quasar:Stop making KeSPA look like victims here,if anyone's a victim its the us(the viewers) and the the players.
@AyJay:Blizzard is not the reason SC is popular...They only made the game,Korea contributed to their popularity on their own.KeSPA only stabilized that popularity.
On November 07 2010 22:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: Blizzard is not the reason SC is popular...They only made the game,Korea contributed to their popularity on their own.KeSPA only stabilized that popularity.
Right, so by your logic, Nirvana was not the reason Nirvana was popular... They only made the music, America contributed to their popularity on their own. MTV only stabilized that popularity.
Sooo.. MTV just profits off of Nirvana (Or insert any other band) because they created the culture, therefore they profit as much as they possibly can off of it without paying the respective bands and production/distribution companies.
On November 07 2010 22:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: the only reason this is going so far is because both sides are looking for a situation that benefits their side and their side alone.
@Quasar:Stop making KeSPA look like victims here,if anyone's a victim its the us(the viewers) and the the players.
@AyJay:Blizzard is not the reason SC is popular...They only made the game,Korea contributed to their popularity on their own.KeSPA only stabilized that popularity.
No. PcBangs and bnet is the reason SC was popular, Boxer is the reason E-sports was popular.
KeSPA was created in 2003, the game had sold millions of copies already until then. Yeah they did contribute, but not as much as you think.
I agree that fans are suffering because of what Blizzard is doing, but saying that what they do is unreasonable is stupid.
On November 07 2010 22:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: Blizzard is not the reason SC is popular...They only made the game,Korea contributed to their popularity on their own.KeSPA only stabilized that popularity.
Right, so by your logic, Nirvana was not the reason Nirvana was popular... They only made the music, America contributed to their popularity on their own. MTV only stabilized that popularity.
Sooo.. MTV just profits off of Nirvana (Or insert any other band) because they created the culture, therefore they profit as much as they possibly can off of it without paying the respective bands and production/distribution companies.
Makes perfect sense to me.
I'm not arguing logic here...what I've quoted is a fact which people miss.
1. On what legal ground does KeSPA have the right to demand money from broadcasting companies from broadcasting Starcraft tournaments.
2. KeSPA claims Starcraft is public property so Blizzard doesn't have full rights to claim it as their own. On what basis does KeSPA have the right to call Starcraft public property, and if it is, how come they are demanding money from broadcasting companies to broadcast it in Korea?
3. Blizzard/Gretech seems to want to negotiate with OGN and MBC separately from KeSPA, as OGN succeeded in acquiring a sub-license from Gretech to finish broadcasting the Korean Air 2 OSL. However, KeSPA has control of the teams and players. If OGN and MBC would rather reinvest their own money into their own leagues and new licenses from Gretech. would KeSPA pull the teams and players out OSL and MSL?
On November 07 2010 23:51 Pleiades wrote: There are a few points that have to be answered.
1. On what legal ground does KeSPA have the right to demand money from broadcasting companies from broadcasting Starcraft tournaments.
KeSPA said they think that broadcasting rights belong to them, because teams and players belong to them.
On November 07 2010 23:51 Pleiades wrote: 2. KeSPA claims Starcraft is public property so Blizzard doesn't have full rights to claim it as their own. On what basis does KeSPA have the right to call Starcraft public property, and if it is, how come they are demanding money from broadcasting companies to broadcast it in Korea?
KeSPA says that starcraft became sport/culture just like basketball/football, therefore Blizzard shouldn't say starcraft belongs to them. (Which in my opinion is complete bullshit)
On November 07 2010 23:51 Pleiades wrote: 3. Blizzard/Gretech seems to want to negotiate with OGN and MBC separately from KeSPA, as OGN succeeded in acquiring a sub-license from Gretech to finish broadcasting the Korean Air 2 OSL. However, KeSPA has control of the teams and players. If OGN and MBC would rather reinvest their own money into their own leagues and new licenses from Gretech. would KeSPA pull the teams and players out OSL and MSL?
I don't know, but I can say that even if they don't have broadcasting rights the organizations behind KeSPA (teams and sponsors) will still make money, so pulling players out of OSL and MSL would be idiotic move.
Please stop posting things like "do you say Blizz can't protect their intellectual property" and such things that are merely words. Yes they do can, but what part of SC popularity is really theirs? And do they not owe to Koreans their SC's popularity (that triggered VERY much of their games - WC3, SC2 and indirectly WoW)?
Without Koreans that would be merely good selling game, but not a long-runner, not for 12 mother freaking years. And therefore wouldn't allow Blizz to make money so much.
I mean, SC is good itself, but koreans contributed to it its popularity. And gaming culture was made by themselves, it's not Blizzard who did it. It was not "predestined" that they would do it - so its not Blizzard's action, it's theirs. And e-sports wasn't recognized as sports! Boxer and company had to fight their way through to prove that this IS true sports.
I just realised that I'm quoting BLiND-RawR without having read his post. :D Oops.
I don't mean Kespa is victim. I mean koreans are, and the best players especially. Who wouldn't like to see the predictable return of Bisu? To send zerg vs. him now seems like suicide. And his PvT looks suddenly decent too. Why not come back?
Yes, game is good, but to build gaming culture with a game that IS huge effort. And, to say honestly, not giving much direct and instant payback! Would Blizzard risk to do so? No, I think no. And koreans did.
And again: Blizzard does not request payment for SC. They try to replace it with a worse game that is SC2. And it won't last for long or bring legendary players - cos it's all only about money.
This is all bullshit ritorics. You all know that no one, including ActiBlizzard themselves (read several pages earlier) obey law to its fullest. Because law only says that persons CAN be sued for what they do. To sue them or not is an action of a man. Blizzard decided to do so, and I bet they shouldn't, because they do owe to Korea popularity and money. You say, that for what they do (broadcast games without license but drawing HUGE attention to it) they haven't already paid Blizzard to its fullest?! They have brought Blizzard tons of money for Starcraft 2 - more than anything else country. Their efforts of supporting it for TOO long - not Blizzard's - and the players' efforts too, to establish it - that's what earned Blizzard the money they now have for SC2 that is arguably balanced, arguably good, etc.
Blizzard themselves just wouldn't support that. If they could, why didn't they? They were greedy to invest money in it or what?!
Now let's them not say that they are the reason to such a long living of SC. They aren't. They could be because the game is truly good. But they didn't.
On November 08 2010 00:01 _Quasar_ wrote: Please stop posting things like "do you say Blizz can't protect their intellectual property" and such things that are merely words. Yes they do can, but what part of SC popularity is really theirs? And do they not owe to Koreans their SC's popularity (that triggered VERY much of their games - WC3, SC2 and indirectly WoW)?
Without Koreans that would be merely good selling game, but not a long-runner, not for 12 mother freaking years. And therefore wouldn't allow Blizz to make money so much.
I mean, SC is good itself, but koreans contributed to it its popularity. And gaming culture was made by themselves, it's not Blizzard who did it. It was not "predestined" that they would do it - so its not Blizzard's action, it's theirs. And e-sports wasn't recognized as sports! Boxer and company had to fight their way through to prove that this IS true sports.
I just realised that I'm quoting BLiND-RawR without having read his post. :D Oops.
I don't mean Kespa is victim. I mean koreans are, and the best players especially. Who wouldn't like to see the predictable return of Bisu? To send zerg vs. him now seems like suicide. And his PvT looks suddenly decent too. Why not come back?
Yes, game is good, but to build gaming culture with a game that IS huge effort. And, to say honestly, not giving much direct and instant payback! Would Blizzard risk to do so? No, I think no. And koreans did.
And again: Blizzard does not request payment for SC. They try to replace it with a worse game that is SC2. And it won't last for long or bring legendary players - cos it's all only about money.
This is all bullshit ritorics. You all know that no one, including ActiBlizzard themselves (read several pages earlier) obey law to its fullest. Because law only says that persons CAN be sued for what they do. To sue them or not is an action of a man. Blizzard decided to do so, and I bet they shouldn't, because they do owe to Korea popularity and money. You say, that for what they do (broadcast games without license but drawing HUGE attention to it) they haven't already paid Blizzard to its fullest?! They have brought Blizzard tons of money for Starcraft 2 - more than anything else country. Their efforts of supporting it for TOO long - not Blizzard's - and the players' efforts too, to establish it - that's what earned Blizzard the money they now have for SC2 that is arguably balanced, arguably good, etc.
Blizzard themselves just wouldn't support that. If they could, why didn't they? They were greedy to invest money in it or what?!
Now let's them not say that they are the reason to such a long living of SC. They aren't. They could be because the game is truly good. But they didn't.
you don't know that for sure..
You again assume that Blizzard is going to destroy everything and leave the progamers to rot or move on or move to SC2(which I can assume is what Blizzard wants).See the thing is negotiations are going on not for some PR reasons like,"oh well, now that SC2 is out lets kill BW but we'll make it look like we don't really want to kill BW" its a negotiation for legal co-existence of both BW and Sc2,I don't agree with the decisions they have made so far,but this is the result that both KeSPA and Blizzard wants.
oh and progamers should speak up without the interference of KeSPA.
Yes. But Jaedong spoke, as one of the popular and enough mature progamers. Did they hear him? I suppose no. -___-
Maybe next, Bisu should? x_x He seems to be an intelligent person with ability to feel and think. And he already said about the strange atmosphere in progaming. Maybe him?
And again, even if Acti-Blizz don't just kill SC... This is nonetheless unfair. I explained why Koreans already have paid Blizz for the use of this game to the fullest. They didn't do it themselves, all these efforts to establish e-sports - although they could.
And you say someone's getting rich, yes? If all that simple why didn't BLIZZARD go, organize esports and get rich? Why not them???
So, I think they just took it for granted, and now say "we don't owe you anything". That's unfair! Understand what I mean? And everyone here - do you understand? T_T
On November 08 2010 01:17 _Quasar_ wrote: Yes. But Jaedong spoke, as one of the popular and enough mature progamers. Did they hear him? I suppose no. -___-
Maybe next, Bisu should? x_x He seems to be an intelligent person with ability to feel and think. And he already said about the strange atmosphere in progaming. Maybe him?
And again, even if Acti-Blizz don't just kill SC... This is nonetheless unfair. I explained why Koreans already have paid Blizz for the use of this game to the fullest. They didn't do it themselves, all these efforts to establish e-sports - although they could.
And you say someone's getting rich, yes? If all that simple why didn't BLIZZARD go, organize esports and get rich? Why not them???
So, I think they just took it for granted, and now say "we don't owe you anything". That's unfair! Understand what I mean? And everyone here - do you understand? T_T
Jaedong spoke...under the influence of KeSPA...He only said what they wanted him to say,but that wouldn't make much of a difference anyways.
No I think he spoke about what he thought, isn't it O_o Only partially that could be KeSPA's. Didn't he say that the progamers feel confused... That must be his own feeling not kespas. *_*
And for those who think that trying to "close" SC makes sense...
Did you see the recent matches at Proleague? Did you see the constant work of strategic thought that is by not means over? Did you see both Jaedong and RorO, and then even Killer, who all lost, but tried to bring a 3 hatch before pool into a standard of ZvT and find out to what extent it can be used? Did you also see the wraiths use knocking at the door of modern play too, many wraiths, willing to prove that Terran too, has its "Muta"? Did you see that revival of old Yellow-style by Zero, a style that all ofo a sudden appeared to almost directly counter the modern Flash-like terran builds? And the "revival" of Bisu who suddenly regained his strength and seems ready to rock again, and bring new Protoss builds? And sudden Protoss stomp over Terran that seemed to invincible with the Flash's vs.P morale - and again the need for Terran to find counters, play smart - and maybe again complete the circle: return to some BoxeR legacy??
If you didn't witness that - please don't say anything on StarCraft being dead or alive. It's alive, you just didn't see it.
Stupid for Activision to do this. Why ask for a sum that is obviously not agreeable for the Koreans?
It's not like they havent been broadcasting for over 10 years.
Blizzard should know that fan's devotion to their products are transient, and that if someone makes a better one, theres really nothing binding them to Blizzard. Their newest game SC2 isn't amazing, groundbreaking like SC, and really isn't great for spectators (some people blame the maps, etc)...
Seems that the won't be the major player... Theres nothing really binding people to Blizzard, but the quality of their individual products. (though they might think there is.)
Activision back in the Nintendo 64 days used to have a reputation for shortcomings, and it seems they are falling into their stereotype again, antagonizing their most important player base.
This plus B.net2 is all just grand shortcomings... Putting your global economic and datamining meta-corporate strategy into action isnt as desirable for the average gamer, imo, as just a simple chat room and game interface.
They can cram it down our throats, yeah, but if something better, simpler, and more honest comes along, they may have more competition than they expected.
Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.'
I think SC2 is terrible from a spectator point of view. Units are clastered together. Blizzard knows that if they can't make any money broadcasting the games. They will make the game play better at the expense spectating. I am not sure if blizzard is doing the right thing when it comes to sueing OGN. its like a tv station trying to broadcast the world cup without the consent of Fifa. Now we have to distinguish the fact that BW client installed on OGN computers are like a soccer ball? cause anyone can broadcast playing soccer ball. It is when its hard to differentiate. Is BW a soccer ball that belongs to everyone or world cup tornament that belongs to fifa?
On November 08 2010 15:08 Eternal Obilivion wrote: I think SC2 is terrible from a spectator point of view. Units are clastered together. Blizzard knows that if they can't make any money broadcasting the games. They will make the game play better at the expense spectating. I am not sure if blizzard is doing the right thing when it comes to sueing OGN. its like a tv station trying to broadcast the world cup without the consent of Fifa. Now we have to distinguish the fact that BW client installed on OGN computers are like a soccer ball? cause anyone can broadcast playing soccer ball. It is when its hard to differentiate. Is BW a soccer ball that belongs to everyone or world cup tornament that belongs to fifa?
It is more like BW is the stadium and sport. Where KeSPA is selling stadium seats for the sport even though its not their stadium.
On November 08 2010 15:08 Eternal Obilivion wrote: I think SC2 is terrible from a spectator point of view. Units are clastered together. Blizzard knows that if they can't make any money broadcasting the games. They will make the game play better at the expense spectating. I am not sure if blizzard is doing the right thing when it comes to sueing OGN. its like a tv station trying to broadcast the world cup without the consent of Fifa. Now we have to distinguish the fact that BW client installed on OGN computers are like a soccer ball? cause anyone can broadcast playing soccer ball. It is when its hard to differentiate. Is BW a soccer ball that belongs to everyone or world cup tornament that belongs to fifa?
It is more like BW is the stadium and sport. Where KeSPA is selling stadium seats for the sport even though its not their stadium.
No, KeSPA and Co. created the e-sports scene for Starcraft. They built the stadium for a sport that Blizzard created. Blizzard watched them build the stadium for ten years and even attended a few times before deciding to sue them.
Anyway, to everyone who is saying Starcraft is Blizzard's IP... you are absolutely right. But the e-sports scene of it is a whole different story and it's not as clear-cut as many of you make it out to be.
First, let's start more locally with US copyright laws. Even by US standards, the law isn't on necessarily on Blizzard's side. Under the concept of "fair use" from the Copyright Act of 1976, KeSPA could argue that the broadcasting is purely for commenting purposes, which aligns perfectly with them being a NPO.
Korea has similar rulings: "Article 29(Public Performance and Broadcasting for Non-profit Purposes) (1) It shall be permissible to perform publicly or broadcast a work already being made public for non-profit purposes and without charging any fees to audience, spectators or third persons provided that the performers concerned are not paid any remuneration for such performances. (2) Commercial phonograms or cinematographic works may be reproduced and played for the public, if no admission fee is charged to audience or spectators, except the cases as prescribed by the Presidential Decree."
As far as I know, the broadcasting companies are not charging anyone as all finances are from sponsorships by other companies and tournament prizes are given out by the sponsors rather than MBC/OGN.
In conclusion, you can say Starcraft is Blizzard's IP, but stop saying they're protecting their rights by shutting down the broadcasting of it because... that has yet to be determined.
On November 08 2010 15:08 Eternal Obilivion wrote: I think SC2 is terrible from a spectator point of view. Units are clastered together. Blizzard knows that if they can't make any money broadcasting the games. They will make the game play better at the expense spectating. I am not sure if blizzard is doing the right thing when it comes to sueing OGN. its like a tv station trying to broadcast the world cup without the consent of Fifa. Now we have to distinguish the fact that BW client installed on OGN computers are like a soccer ball? cause anyone can broadcast playing soccer ball. It is when its hard to differentiate. Is BW a soccer ball that belongs to everyone or world cup tornament that belongs to fifa?
It is more like BW is the stadium and sport. Where KeSPA is selling stadium seats for the sport even though its not their stadium.
No, KeSPA and Co. created the e-sports scene for Starcraft. They built the stadium for a sport that Blizzard created. Blizzard watched them build the stadium for ten years and even attended a few times before deciding to sue them.
They only decided to sue once KeSPA started to sell the broadcast rights for the sport that they did not own. Blizzard was fine with everything that they were doing until 2007, then they overstepped their bounds and Blizzard got them for it. Let me restate that comment to make more sense
The stadium is the broadcast The sport is BW
Blizzard created the sport and owns the stadium, but KeSPA is selling the seats in the stadium to watch the sport. The sport itself is relatively free reign, anybody can play it. The only issue is when somebody comes in and tries to sell something that wasnt theirs in the first place. Hopefully this makes more sense.
First, let's start more locally with US copyright laws. Even by US standards, the law isn't on necessarily on Blizzard's side. Under the concept of "fair use" from the Copyright Act of 1976, KeSPA could argue that the broadcasting is purely for commenting purposes, which aligns perfectly with them being a NPO.
Fair use doesnt entitle them to sell the broadcast. It would be fine if it was free, but since it has a commercial purpose then it doesnt fall under those terms.
As far as I know, the broadcasting companies are not charging anyone as all finances are from sponsorships by other companies.
KeSPA was demanding fees to broadcast, the broadcasting companies are paying KeSPA. This is the whole issue (afaik)
On November 08 2010 15:08 Eternal Obilivion wrote: I think SC2 is terrible from a spectator point of view. Units are clastered together. Blizzard knows that if they can't make any money broadcasting the games. They will make the game play better at the expense spectating. I am not sure if blizzard is doing the right thing when it comes to sueing OGN. its like a tv station trying to broadcast the world cup without the consent of Fifa. Now we have to distinguish the fact that BW client installed on OGN computers are like a soccer ball? cause anyone can broadcast playing soccer ball. It is when its hard to differentiate. Is BW a soccer ball that belongs to everyone or world cup tornament that belongs to fifa?
It is more like BW is the stadium and sport. Where KeSPA is selling stadium seats for the sport even though its not their stadium.
No, KeSPA and Co. created the e-sports scene for Starcraft. They built the stadium for a sport that Blizzard created. Blizzard watched them build the stadium for ten years and even attended a few times before deciding to sue them.
They only decided to sue once KeSPA started to sell the broadcast rights for the sport that they did not own. Blizzard was fine with everything that they were doing until 2007, then they overstepped their bounds and Blizzard got them for it. Let me restate that comment to make more sense
The stadium is the broadcast The sport is BW
Blizzard created the sport and owns the stadium, but KeSPA is selling the seats in the stadium to watch the sport. The sport itself is relatively free reign, anybody can play it. The only issue is when somebody comes in and tries to sell something that wasnt theirs in the first place. Hopefully this makes more sense.
First, let's start more locally with US copyright laws. Even by US standards, the law isn't on necessarily on Blizzard's side. Under the concept of "fair use" from the Copyright Act of 1976, KeSPA could argue that the broadcasting is purely for commenting purposes, which aligns perfectly with them being a NPO.
Fair use doesnt entitle them to sell the broadcast. It would be fine if it was free, but since it has a commercial purpose then it doesnt fall under those terms.
As far as I know, the broadcasting companies are not charging anyone as all finances are from sponsorships by other companies.
KeSPA was demanding fees to broadcast, the broadcasting companies are paying KeSPA. This is the whole issue (afaik)
Your entire point would make more sense if Blizzard was suing KeSPA. If anyone has legal grounds to sue, it would be OGN/MBC/Blizzard suing KeSPA then.
No, because MBC and OGN complied and agreed to KeSPA's demand to pay for broadcasting fees. In law, you can file a lawsuit against either party or both.
EDIT- I'm not sure exactly if they are suing for that deal that MBC/OGN had with KeSPA. It's more like they're suing for the current MSL and OSL, because they did not get broadcasting sublicenses from Gretech.
On November 08 2010 01:17 _Quasar_ wrote: Yes. But Jaedong spoke, as one of the popular and enough mature progamers. Did they hear him? I suppose no. -___-
Maybe next, Bisu should? x_x He seems to be an intelligent person with ability to feel and think. And he already said about the strange atmosphere in progaming. Maybe him?
And again, even if Acti-Blizz don't just kill SC... This is nonetheless unfair. I explained why Koreans already have paid Blizz for the use of this game to the fullest. They didn't do it themselves, all these efforts to establish e-sports - although they could.
And you say someone's getting rich, yes? If all that simple why didn't BLIZZARD go, organize esports and get rich? Why not them???
So, I think they just took it for granted, and now say "we don't owe you anything". That's unfair! Understand what I mean? And everyone here - do you understand? T_T
Jaedong spoke...under the influence of KeSPA...He only said what they wanted him to say,but that wouldn't make much of a difference anyways.
You got no proof that he was influenced under of kespa or what so ever I have seen you posting around and all of them lead to you defacing kespa ,ogn and mbc . Purposely I guess you like to jump in the sc2 band wagon than go ahead and enjoy your ultimate game . This thread has become a freaking pile of hate and some of you may say its arguing and may I ask you one question does it change anything ? People dont change easily no matter how hard you argue here some people (trolls) will post offensive stuff to put off broodwar and sc2 . But what ever feel free to continue your crusade .
well i dont pay adobe when i post some photoshop video tutorials.... i dont get it. why is blizzard so concerned? they are far away from getting broke with the money from WoW and stuff yet they fight for every penny. and the players and watchers suffer in the end.
thanks blizz... for trying to mafia-control everything. b.net 2.0 included.
Stop comparing it to football (soccer). Soccer has no copyright owner - so we can't say that anyone owes its popularity to, lets say, Brazilians. No one does because soccer isn't subject to copyright.
And SC is subject to it, and therefore you can make money of it. Therefore you can owe something in the sense of common morale to someone who helped you with gaining profit with this. And at least not attack them.
OGN should be left alone, because otherwise those people to whom they owe it will suffer.
On November 08 2010 19:08 xanatas wrote: well i dont pay adobe when i post some photoshop video tutorials.... i dont get it. why is blizzard so concerned? they are far away from getting broke with the money from WoW and stuff yet they fight for every penny. and the players and watchers suffer in the end.
thanks blizz... for trying to mafia-control everything. b.net 2.0 included.
If you are caught selling photoshop stuff with a student copy or a pirated copy you would pay adobe. There is a reason the software costs like $1000, and that reason is because you are given full creative control.
Also if they dont protect their software then anybody could step up and do this to them. If KeSPA were hackers then you would be cheering them on... and its the same deal here... they are protecting their own stuff.
"Anyone" didn't contribute to them so much as Koreans...
for example if someone cracks SC2 or so - they should sue them. But not the korean pro scene. Their influence on success of these games is FAR too big.
On November 08 2010 20:54 _Quasar_ wrote: "Anyone" didn't contribute to them so much as Koreans...
for example if someone cracks SC2 or so - they should sue them. But not the korean pro scene. Their influence on success of these games is FAR too big.
Korea is fine and koreans have access to BW, they have to go through the korean owned Gretech corp to get permission to broadcast or give Gretech corp some way to broadcast games with the players. Right now there is a failed korean interaction that has nothing to do with blizzard since blizzard sold the rights to gretech.
If OGN had simply gotten permission from the KOREAN owned and operated gretech this wouldnt be happening.
Gretech paid blizzard and negotiated with them to get this deal, if it isnt enforced in some way then gretech spent a lot of money on the rights and gets nothing in return...
PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
On November 08 2010 20:54 _Quasar_ wrote: "Anyone" didn't contribute to them so much as Koreans...
for example if someone cracks SC2 or so - they should sue them. But not the korean pro scene. Their influence on success of these games is FAR too big.
Korea is fine and koreans have access to BW, they have to go through the korean owned Gretech corp to get permission to broadcast or give Gretech corp some way to broadcast games with the players. Right now there is a failed korean interaction that has nothing to do with blizzard since blizzard sold the rights to gretech.
If OGN had simply gotten permission from the KOREAN owned and operated gretech this wouldnt be happening.
Gretech paid blizzard and negotiated with them to get this deal, if it isnt enforced in some way then gretech spent a lot of money on the rights and gets nothing in return...
PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
I seriously think that from all the people who is posting here you are the less indicated to point that somebody has to stop posting in this thread, in your posts you have showed us how poor is your knowledge of the korean proscene in all its aspects, you are very biased too, you jump conclusions, so if you are posting here , everybody should be allowed. I personally think that this thread doesnt have much more to be discussed (this subject has been in debate in many other threads), we can only sit and wait for the resolution of this conlict in any way, as a fan of BW proscene I just wish OGN and MBC beat Blizz.
PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
Tell me, how does repeating some thing appear to influence how true that thing is?
I think in no way. And I still think that what I'm triying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. And... you see I don't think that koreans of KeSPA are good and don't think that OGN and MBC are super cool and their bosses are not mean and money-hungry.
But that all doesn't matter. Blizzard are wrong in the regarded case.
On November 08 2010 20:54 _Quasar_ wrote: "Anyone" didn't contribute to them so much as Koreans...
for example if someone cracks SC2 or so - they should sue them. But not the korean pro scene. Their influence on success of these games is FAR too big.
Korea is fine and koreans have access to BW, they have to go through the korean owned Gretech corp to get permission to broadcast or give Gretech corp some way to broadcast games with the players. Right now there is a failed korean interaction that has nothing to do with blizzard since blizzard sold the rights to gretech.
If OGN had simply gotten permission from the KOREAN owned and operated gretech this wouldnt be happening.
Gretech paid blizzard and negotiated with them to get this deal, if it isnt enforced in some way then gretech spent a lot of money on the rights and gets nothing in return...
PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
You don't even know the Korean proscene that well, do you? r o f l
On November 08 2010 20:54 _Quasar_ wrote: "Anyone" didn't contribute to them so much as Koreans...
for example if someone cracks SC2 or so - they should sue them. But not the korean pro scene. Their influence on success of these games is FAR too big.
Korea is fine and koreans have access to BW, they have to go through the korean owned Gretech corp to get permission to broadcast or give Gretech corp some way to broadcast games with the players. Right now there is a failed korean interaction that has nothing to do with blizzard since blizzard sold the rights to gretech.
If OGN had simply gotten permission from the KOREAN owned and operated gretech this wouldnt be happening.
Gretech paid blizzard and negotiated with them to get this deal, if it isnt enforced in some way then gretech spent a lot of money on the rights and gets nothing in return...
PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
Dude, im a probe and i seem to know more about the proscene than you, simply from reading around a little.. -.- if you wish to have discussions on this topic, at least make an effort to enlighten urself..
Also your comments (imho) are among the most biased around here.. I cant say much of anything earlier since i am very much biased myself, but now that you mentioned it, those bolded words can be thrown right at you.
Im regretting investing money into SC2 to try it out now ... T_T its a lot of money considering im a student studying away from home.. And i no longer feel the motivation to turn on SC2 and compete on Ladder anymore (after some tens of games ).. Im playing some NintendoDS games on an Emulator right now.
I think what we see here is just a standart case of Internet community having a knee-jerk reaction at anything involving the word "sue".
I don't recall a single discussion on any topic, regarding anyone suing anyone, where Internet community supported the one taking legal action. People seem to think that it should always be songs and flowers and everyone getting along like Care Bears, and anyone who sues is by definition a bad guy out for his own greed.
So yeah, i think it's mostly about Internet people thinking that finances and law are the instruments of evil and not - heaven forbid - the things that shape the foundation of modern society.
So outside of empty sophisticated-sounding words, maybe you would like to bring up a point, or a logical argument? You are jumping into a discussion after all.
Singing "internet nerds are ignorant idiots" (im aware of my slightly exaggerated paraphrasing) and nothing else as your first post in a discussion is even less constructive than haters and blind fanboys. At least those guys try to say something.
In an attempt for this not to sound like a 100% diss post:
Its actually less blind hate/ignorance than you think. Many of us have attempted to assume and analyze possible scenarios, e.g. If Blizz wins, A and B and C will happen, and i do/dont like it, etc. You may agree or you may not, but your opinion will be more highly regarded if you back it with reason, not disses and smarter-than-thou talks.
On November 09 2010 03:46 Anfi wrote: I think what we see here is just a standart case of Internet community having a knee-jerk reaction at anything involving the word "sue".
I don't recall a single discussion on any topic, regarding anyone suing anyone, where Internet community supported the one taking legal action. People seem to think that it should always be songs and flowers and everyone getting along like Care Bears, and anyone who sues is by definition a bad guy out for his own greed.
So yeah, i think it's mostly about Internet people thinking that finances and law are the instruments of evil and not - heaven forbid - the things that shape the foundation of modern society.
lol no, i don't think that "foundations of nowadays' society" are good. -___-
But look - Valve had some problems with CS in Korea, and I don't think they're evil. Because they f$%king made it BEFORE koreans made e-sports out of it and brought them great profit. And instead they had its popularity made by means of ordinary gaming culture, not televised one. CS made its way to the top e-sports (and probably the only SC's rival for the #1 place among e-sports) on its own.
Therefore, basically, I think Valve isn't evil. Yet. :D
PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
Tell me, how does repeating some thing appear to influence how true that thing is?
I think in no way. And I still think that what I'm triying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. And... you see I don't think that koreans of KeSPA are good and don't think that OGN and MBC are super cool and their bosses are not mean and money-hungry.
But that all doesn't matter. Blizzard are wrong in the regarded case.
Lmao I am still on the fence in this argument becuase I am not a lawyer , and still have to do some researching into Korean and international law , before I am decided , On another note , dude this post is so fail -funny , You say in the very same sentence " And I still think that what I'm trying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. "
Um.......UM......UM....maybe I am misinterpreting the post , based on a lack of reading the priori-posts
well I am no linguist , but becuase "feelings " may qualify as a form of bias ( although maybe if you had worded it " I feel this way based on this culmination of said facts , it could work . However , without tying your emotions to a factual fulcrum , the statement seems borderline oxymoronic.
On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote: According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years).
I dont even know how you can infer that conclusion about SC2 reached or surpassed BW popularity when the main way of broadcasting of OGN and MBC are different than GOM, please go and see the TV ratings of that event and then you can conclude something, sorry but It is comparing apples with oranges, if the final of the GSL has less viewers than Boxer vs Nestea or Boxer vs Nada, then you can conclude that it is not even about SC2 but a phenomenom named Boxer. Lets wait and see.
GSL1 finals vod has 1.9 Million views. Koreans are interested in Sc2
I don't really have anything to add but i don't really think we should be useing vod hits as an accurate measurement. After all Justin Beiber has like 400 MILLION hits on one of his MV's.
On November 09 2010 01:59 _Quasar_ wrote: @ TheRabidDeer
PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
Tell me, how does repeating some thing appear to influence how true that thing is?
I think in no way. And I still think that what I'm triying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. And... you see I don't think that koreans of KeSPA are good and don't think that OGN and MBC are super cool and their bosses are not mean and money-hungry.
But that all doesn't matter. Blizzard are wrong in the regarded case.
Lmao I am still on the fence in this argument becuase I am not a lawyer , and still have to do some researching into Korean and international law , before I am decided , On another note , dude this post is so fail -funny , You say in the very same sentence " And I still think that what I'm trying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. "
Um.......UM......UM....maybe I am misinterpreting the post , based on a lack of reading the priori-posts
well I am no linguist , but becuase "feelings " may qualify as a form of bias ( although maybe if you had worded it " I feel this way based on this culmination of said facts , it could work . However , without tying your emotions to a factual fulcrum , the statement seems borderline oxymoronic.
Maybe you , should grow a pair of braincells before you type nonsense like this? You do know we are creatures of feelings, and that feelings are used in every decision in right or wrong? If not, we would just be computers. It's funny how guys like you come to a discussion board with fancy words, you know, you should read history about people like that, its commical.
On November 09 2010 01:59 _Quasar_ wrote: @ TheRabidDeer
PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
Tell me, how does repeating some thing appear to influence how true that thing is?
I think in no way. And I still think that what I'm triying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. And... you see I don't think that koreans of KeSPA are good and don't think that OGN and MBC are super cool and their bosses are not mean and money-hungry.
But that all doesn't matter. Blizzard are wrong in the regarded case.
Lmao I am still on the fence in this argument becuase I am not a lawyer , and still have to do some researching into Korean and international law , before I am decided , On another note , dude this post is so fail -funny , You say in the very same sentence " And I still think that what I'm trying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. "
Um.......UM......UM....maybe I am misinterpreting the post , based on a lack of reading the priori-posts
well I am no linguist , but becuase "feelings " may qualify as a form of bias ( although maybe if you had worded it " I feel this way based on this culmination of said facts , it could work . However , without tying your emotions to a factual fulcrum , the statement seems borderline oxymoronic.
Maybe you , should grow a pair of braincells before you type nonsense like this? You do know we are creatures of feelings, and that feelings are used in every decision in right or wrong? If not, we would just be computers. It's funny how guys like you come to a discussion board with fancy words, you know, you should read history about people like that, its commical.
lmao , now i need only to grow a pair of brain cells and stop using " fancy words " like objectivity ( that is too funny, dont even know what to say to that , if objectivity is a fancy word to you , I hope you do a good job decorating the cave you were raised in ) ), and he wants me to grow some , not acquire knew ones through the form of cell reproduction those of us with currently educated braincells like to call cell mitosis , but " the brilliant lay-term you came up with is vastly superior . " grow a pair of braincells " , I really like the sub-phallic connotation as well . Not too mention growing a "pair of "new brain cells is quite impossible for someone my age unless you are talking about growing some nerve endings or hippo-campus cells , I can only regenerate the ones from the genetic template i already have ( even that is unlikely ) . Another seeming impossibility is an objective post on this forum .,
As far as objectivity is concerned Here is simple wiki post , providing anything more formalized would be lost on you I assume .
Now I suppose you will post some representation a " Subjectivenist " " Metaphysical idealism or Radical skepticism.the denial of material reality (idealism); and odd views in epistemology, (assuming of course you understand your own arguments , but allow me to argue for you , as trhe more I read your post , I am not sure you even know what you mean ) e.g., the claim that all statements are equally warranted. In other words, if you're careless about how you handle the concepts of subjectivity and objectivity, you can end up saying there's no such thing as morality, reality, or truth! . Arguments like that are pretty lame imo as a defense of a formal debate ,as they commit the fallacy of appeal to ignorance. You " appeal to ignorance " when your only premise in support of a claim is that you or your opponent can't show the claim is false, i.e., you are ignorant of any evidence that would disprove it , So yeah if you want to come in here , saying " well buddy ,dont you know reality doesn't exist its all a dream , or " therefore there is no way for you to ever objective " at that point assuming you beliefs disagree with mine , So if '0bjectivity is to be an ideal,and this is your stance , your reply is still quite obviously non-topical ( two any of us with at least " two brain-cells that is ) as my original post was pointing out the humor based on claiming objectivity while simultaneously supporting this " objectivity " with ones " feelings " I wasn't trying to insult , just thought it ironic . Your post really wasn't wasn't worth replying to , but it is so comical I couldn't resist However imo an actual topical response is probably too much to hope for here
To answer your poorly written , rhetoric oriented , and hilariously misguided pseudo-intellectual question ; Yes I know humans have feelings , and do you know the very nature of "us" having feelings , while managing to both compensate , be made aware of , and successfully remove from the scientific method , this given human hopes to use , ( somewhere between hypothesis and finished argument ) , has always been the goal for any half-aware individual : with at least " a pair of "NEW " braincells . The FACT of the matter is , objective truth is something that remains true whether humans are here or not ; ones feelings have little place as a support to an objectively drawn conclusion , this is what I found funny about the first post replied to . If you cannot or are incapable of understanding this train of thought , then your parents have my sympathy , but please dont follow it up with an even worse logic-fail
On November 08 2010 01:17 _Quasar_ wrote: Yes. But Jaedong spoke, as one of the popular and enough mature progamers. Did they hear him? I suppose no. -___-
Maybe next, Bisu should? x_x He seems to be an intelligent person with ability to feel and think. And he already said about the strange atmosphere in progaming. Maybe him?
And again, even if Acti-Blizz don't just kill SC... This is nonetheless unfair. I explained why Koreans already have paid Blizz for the use of this game to the fullest. They didn't do it themselves, all these efforts to establish e-sports - although they could.
And you say someone's getting rich, yes? If all that simple why didn't BLIZZARD go, organize esports and get rich? Why not them???
So, I think they just took it for granted, and now say "we don't owe you anything". That's unfair! Understand what I mean? And everyone here - do you understand? T_T
Jaedong spoke...under the influence of KeSPA...He only said what they wanted him to say,but that wouldn't make much of a difference anyways.
You got no proof that he was influenced under of kespa or what so ever I have seen you posting around and all of them lead to you defacing kespa ,ogn and mbc . Purposely I guess you like to jump in the sc2 band wagon than go ahead and enjoy your ultimate game . This thread has become a freaking pile of hate and some of you may say its arguing and may I ask you one question does it change anything ? People dont change easily no matter how hard you argue here some people (trolls) will post offensive stuff to put off broodwar and sc2 . But what ever feel free to continue your crusade .
You clearly haven't been reading my posts if you are saying that.
it was an event held my KeSPA and the ministry of Sports,Culture and Tourism.
there is nothing there to deface KeSPA for,I'm saying that they are bad and a better group should take care of progamers and their sponsors,even after all they have done.OGN and MBC are the biggest victims(in terms of business) in this shit between KeSPA and Blizzard.
On November 09 2010 03:46 Anfi wrote: I think what we see here is just a standart case of Internet community having a knee-jerk reaction at anything involving the word "sue".
I don't recall a single discussion on any topic, regarding anyone suing anyone, where Internet community supported the one taking legal action. People seem to think that it should always be songs and flowers and everyone getting along like Care Bears, and anyone who sues is by definition a bad guy out for his own greed.
So yeah, i think it's mostly about Internet people thinking that finances and law are the instruments of evil and not - heaven forbid - the things that shape the foundation of modern society.
I agree a little of that going on , and a huge lack of objectivity going on , ( uh oh shouldn't have used that word the Metaphysical idealists will come out of the word-work ) most people here of course are having trouble seeing past there own wants . I.E they want BW to survive , of course this is a site based solely on SC related things , this is to be expected somewhat .
Do you think that "BroodWar wouldn't last very long without help of Korean gaming community, therefore SC2 wouldn't be so expected and so popular, and wouldn't have at least half of it sales, and WC3 and its successor WoW would also lose in popularity, if at all appeared" is a not objective statement?
Don't fool us please with your rhetoric. And Blizzard, please, don't try to do that too. This is ridiculous.
Efforts of maintaining SC's success and therefore maintaining its competitive status are their, not Blizzard's, and these should be respected. If no, then they're seriously risking to never get such support from anyone else, and this is yet not regarding the mere fact that this is a treason and it's simply dishonest.
For example, knowing that they do shit EULA which states that they own the things that they didn't make themselves, or probably that they did a EULA that secretly, hidden among 314632487689172364897 words, gives a statement of this (supposed for no one to know), they would avoid doing anything to their games. Why? If they're simply going to get exploited, like Koreans got exploited and then told that they were not helping ActiBlizz with their love of the game, but "stealing" something from them. Or even if not stated that they steal - still, to get this game away from them after so much their efforts put into it, is simply to stab in the back.
And feelings, you know, you need them to imagine what backstabbing feels like, imagining what if it was done to you - and thinking of whether you want it to be done or not.
-____-
And please don't troll this community with your arrogant statements like "most of people here don't see past their own wants". You see, we here don't just say "I want BroodWar and don't want to think of anything else". Here, you will see the things based on the common human morale, not on "wants" of some particular people. Maybe the reason I'm posting in this is because personally I want this morale to be respected and at least in some way followed =\
Yes you can say that this morale is shit and this is your right to say so. At the end, we all decide some basic things ourselves. But think also of the fact how do you going to relate with people around you when your basis is not normal morale but THIS. Look how this obeying only to the written law influences you (try to imagine), and I promise you you won't see anything good.
I mean also, that if you state that someone didn't make a contribution to your success (when he actually did), you are almost 100% risk of not getting any contribution is some close future. And that's the price of being wrong.
On November 09 2010 04:04 ffreakk wrote: So outside of empty sophisticated-sounding words, maybe you would like to bring up a point, or a logical argument? You are jumping into a discussion after all.
Singing "internet nerds are ignorant idiots" (im aware of my slightly exaggerated paraphrasing) and nothing else as your first post in a discussion is even less constructive than haters and blind fanboys. At least those guys try to say something.
In an attempt for this not to sound like a 100% diss post:
Its actually less blind hate/ignorance than you think. Many of us have attempted to assume and analyze possible scenarios, e.g. If Blizz wins, A and B and C will happen, and i do/dont like it, etc. You may agree or you may not, but your opinion will be more highly regarded if you back it with reason, not disses and smarter-than-thou talks.
)) okay, that's fair enough. Sorry for coming off as an arrogant dinkhead.
My logic is as follows.
N1 - most people here spent a lot of quality time, following korean eSports, provided by the organisations being sued. It follows that any organisation that attacks these organisations is guaranteed bad treatment on these forums. Blizzard is not exempt.
N2 - noone here REALLY knows what Blizzard's plans for SC proscene development are. Most people just assume they are in it for the money. Kill BW -> make more ppl pay for SC2 -> profit. Well, truth of the matter is that this is just the easiest explanation available. Even the smartest and most well-educated of us tend to go for easiest explanations. Occam's razor and all.
Put N1 and N2 together, and you get a strong and predictable reaction of the community to Blizzard's legal action. The reaction will be obviously negative and will most likely prevent any notion of Blizzard trying to achieve a good thing to creep into dicussion. Mind you, this is regardless of what Blizzard is really trying to achieve.
My opinion of how the whole thing is going to proceed is as follows. The transition from SC:BW to SC2 will be accelerated. SC:BW will gravitate towards minor loyal communities, much like there are still people around who play WC2 and Total Annihilation. Most progamers will leave for SC2, simply because of SC:BW's "political instability".
Should Blizzard lose the lawsuit, things in Korea will stay mostly the same as they are now. However, Blizzard's might redirect some resources away from SC2 expansions and more towards Diablo, Warcraft and their new unnamed franchise. Obviously a bad thing for SC proscene.
Should Blizzard win the lawsuit, OGN will face legal consequences. I don't think it'll die, Blizzard does not want it to. But even if it does, it won't be long before a new broadcasting company purchases Blizzard's broadcasting license and fills the void. In short, it'll all be good again fairly soon, with the added bonus of Blizzard getting more moneys off SC franchise, thus spending more of it's efforts towards expanding it and making it better.
Worst case scenario is lawsuit becoming a multiyear protracted thing, that will wear on the nerves of both Starcraft fans and all the organisations involved. This scenario is the one with the most uncertainty and the highest promise of devastating consequences for SC proscene.
Blizz definitely want a slice of the pie after watching kespa take in profits, the license fee is not cheap to justify sueing. SC1 is dead everywhere except korea, what can they do to expand it after earning the license fee? The game is 12 years old and don't have resell value, now that there is possible money to be earned blizzard is going to take it with two hands. The money goes to shareholders' pocket and new games.
First of all (I don't add quote to not bear the quote train), I'd say to you that it isn't strange that we are thankful to the community that gave us the ability to watch such a brilliant SC performance. And if it's attacked, it's pretty normal to be angry at the one who does, even if it's Blizzard. Blizzard made only the game, it took less time and efforts than developing the strategies, making SC a show and maintaining it for such a long time, and a lot of money, which blizzard didn't pay themselves, but of which they've collected the fruit. And now they tell that they not only don't thank them, but sue them. This seems nonsense to me. If they sued just some random european company who broadcasted SC and received money for it - I would understand. But these are making far more contriution to their success.
BTW: I'm so happy this topic actually faded out of main page. I hope for less trolling now and finally not through long time, for posts stopping being added at this topic. -__-
First of all (I don't add quote to not bear the quote train), I'd say to you that it isn't strange that we are thankful to the community that gave us the ability to watch such a brilliant SC performance. And if it's attacked, it's pretty normal to be angry at the one who does, even if it's Blizzard. Blizzard made only the game, it took less time and efforts than developing the strategies, making SC a show and maintaining it for such a long time, and a lot of money, which blizzard didn't pay themselves, but of which they've collected the fruit. And now they tell that they not only don't thank them, but sue them. This seems nonsense to me. If they sued just some random european company who broadcasted SC and received money for it - I would understand. But these are making far more contriution to their success.
BTW: I'm so happy this topic actually faded out of main page. I hope for less trolling now and finally not through long time, for posts stopping being added at this topic. -__-
You have no idea what goes into developing a game. Don't talk about the time and effort that went into making it unless you've ever partook into even a single aspect of game development.
On November 11 2010 02:30 Baddieko wrote:The game is 12 years old and don't have resell value, now that there is possible money to be earned blizzard is going to take it with two hands. The money goes to shareholders' pocket and new games.
Aye. Key words - new games )))
On November 11 2010 04:21 _Quasar_ wrote: First of all (I don't add quote to not bear the quote train), I'd say to you that it isn't strange that we are thankful to the community that gave us the ability to watch such a brilliant SC performance.
I am not saying that it's strange. I am saying that the community is obviously thankful. Therefore biased ). I am all for positive emotions, but they still hinder objectivity.
On November 11 2010 04:28 Ocedic wrote: You have no idea what goes into developing a game. Don't talk about the time and effort that went into making it unless you've ever partook into even a single aspect of game development.
EPT
I don't know at all how international laws work. Is anybody could explain what would happen to OGN and MBC if they come to lose and still decide to broadcast? Who's god? Who's the punisher?
