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http://www.ygosu.com/?m=starlife&m2=manual&idx=1913 Original Korean user article
Writer Topgun
Bonjwa - Originally a term used in martial arts novels to indicate a unbeatable martial artist, the SC community uses it to describe a SC player who was unbeatable at his prime.
1st Bonjwa - Boxer
2nd - Nada
3rd - iloveoov
4th - SaviOr
5th - ???
Can we call Jaedong the 5th Bonjwa?
- By Topgun (Translated by samsammy)
Although the 5th Bonjwa theory went down with Bisu's recent losses, after Jaedong's win the SC community has started once again talking about who the 5th Bonjwa is.
If you look at Jaedong's current career
2007.01.07 Sky Proleague 2006 2nd half MVP
2007.08.12 Seoul eSports Festival Champion (vs Jangbi)
2007.12.22 Ever OSL 2007 Champion (vs Stork)
2008.03.08 GomTV MSL Season 4 Champion (vs Kal)
2008.03.19 Kespa 2007 Year's best player, Zerg best player, Highest win rate
2008.07.26 Arena MSL 2nd place (vs ForGG)
2008.08.10 TGSambo-Intel Classic Season 1 Champion (vs Flash)
2009.04.04 Batoo OSL Champion (vs Fantasy)
- Both leagues added up 3 champion titles, 1 2nd place title
Jaedong has currently conquered both leagues, and recently in the Batoo Finals he accomplished a reverse sweep against Fantasy, and won two OSL's, which only a few players in SC history were able to accomplish (Garimto, Boxer, Nada, July, Jaedong).
He is also showed immense "force" in the winners league playoff, Finals by making 4 kills and 3 kills.
Due to this the SC community is now saying things like
"Lim Lee Choi Ma Dong!' [Each word represents the players last name, or nickname, or part of the first name of the 4 bonjwa's, there really is no pattern to it actually - in this case Dong is from Lee Jae "Dong", indicating he is the 5th Bonjwa]
Now can we say with JD's career and stats, that he is a 'Bonjwa'?
Using Savior, "the 4th Bonjwa"'s case, i will explain and give the ultimate reason why JD can not 'yet' become the 5th Bonjwa.
The picture above, or what we Koreans call "Jjalbang" describes the "holy war" which occurred between Savior and Nal_Ra. To be truthful, although it was called the "holy war", the score was one-sided, almost to the point of pure massacre. But why was it that this kind of rivalry formed between Savior and Nal_Ra?
This is because at the time, besides Nal_Ra, there weren't any pro-gamers who actually challenged Savior. People who watched SC at the time probably know, at the time great terran players like iloveoov, Nada, midas, Xellos and also all the protoss players like Reach, Kingdom, Pusan and Nal_Ra all fell down in front of Savior.
Even what was known to be Savior's weakest match up ZvsZ was proven wrong when Savior beat s.s.mSilver, the "gambler".
All in all, it can be said at the time, there was simply NO pro gamer out there who was able to beat Savior.
In Nal_Ra's case, although he had a history of taking championship from both leagues and had a very high win rate, at the time there were pro-gamers out there who seemed like they could win Nal_Ra anytime, and there were pro-gamers who had leading scores against Nal_Ra. This would be the reason why Nal_Ra was unable to enter the Bonjwa line. Same goes for Bisu and July.
Then what does Jaedong, currently the player most closest to the title of the "Bonjwa" need the most? Is it a better record? A win ratio above 70percent? This is probably not so. Like the pictures I posted above, there ares still pro-gamers out there who people consider can beat JD (Flash, Bisu, SkyHigh, free, etc). In other words, JD is not "unbeatable." It is too quick yet, therefore, to say JD is the 5th Bonjwa.
But I am not saying JD does not have the possibility of becoming the 5th Bonjwa.
Depending on how he does now, he can beat the pro-gamers above and grab the "Bonjwa" title as his. Like how Savior did in the 2006 Shin-Han Starleague Season 3, vs Nada.
Everything, depends on Jaedong's hands
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Yes. Yes we can. There is no debate.
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No. No we can't. There is debate.
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On April 21 2009 11:43 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:
Yes. Yes we can. There is no debate.
Seconded
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I think it's possible. He isn't right now, he wasn't before, he probably won't be for a while.
He's got the potential. He has the mechanics but he's missing something. That little bit of Star power than makes him more than just a mechanically sound Zerg.
I don't want to insinuate he's somehow a stupid player but he's missing that meta game sense Savior had. Right now I see him as more of a terribly efficient robot. If someone could somehow clone JulyZerg and Jaedong together into one Zerg, then you'd have quite a bonwja! 
Interesting read though, thanks for translating! It's nice to see what the Koreans think.
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It amazes me how quickly the conversation swung from "Is Bisu Bonjwa?" to "Is Jaedong bonjwa?". Isn't a bonjwa supposed to dominate for an extended period of time? A month before the OSL finals, would any sane person have claimed Jaedong was dominating the scene?
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I agree with the conclusions. Too early and too many players crowding the top. Jaedong will need more time as the undisputed #1 to claim the bonjwa title.
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jaedong has certainly proven he is capable of owning and manhandling even the best players.
and his matchups are unquestionably among the best in the Zerg line much less progamers overall.
-the hands down BEST mirror matchup player out there
- the top 4 in the ELO of every matchup (vP, vZ, vT)
- 13 straight wins until the debacle that was a 5 pool on a heavily terran favored map
but his inconsistency is worth noting too
when he is in his game, i believe he is indeed a force to be reckoned with
but he's also known to just have WTF JAEDONG moments, and other moments that just leave you wondering.
so imo it's still up to debate
which is exactly why he is not considered bonjwa, because there must be no doubt for him to be classified as such, it has to be sound, unanimous, and obvious
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
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Baa?21242 Posts
The article makes such a retarded argument. Just because people can "beat" Jaedong so he can't be considered bonjwa? I love how he conveniently overlooks stuff like Chojja beating Savior in a MSL in the midst of his "bonjwa domination." He's trying to make it sound like JD needs 100% winrate against everyone or something. Stupid argument imo.
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The only literal bonjwa is  sAviOr. The title was given to other players because some fans just had to capitalize on the 3 MSL 1 OSL correlation, oh and  BoxeR too because he was special.
sAviOr is the true bonjwa. He gave the term its meaning.
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3 msl and an osl. I don't want jaedong to be a bonjwa, bonjwa after a period of time falls from grace, i don't want to see jaedong to ever do that.
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United States13896 Posts
If anyone out there is going to fit the bill soon, it's going to be JD, not Bisu/Flash etc. imo.
Currently though, he needs to go 2 more seasons in a row of being the reigning champ in either the OSL/MSL for me to consider him being bonjwa. No doubt the odds are stacked against this happening.
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As much as i like Jaedong I must say no this time.
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there are some ridiculous posts in this thread, there is obviously debate
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
In my opinion, the progaming scene is completely different now compared to the time of the previous Bonjwas. The skill level of all players is so great that it is impossible for anybody, even Jaedong, to dominate on the level that Savior, Nada, and Oov did.
Back in times of Shinhan 3, Savior was favored against everyone he came up against. It really felt like nobody was at the same level as he was. However, nowadays there are some strong players who could take down Jaedong in a Bo5 imo (Flash, Bisu). Jaedong obviously is the best zerg, but he is not dominating enough to be called a Bonjwa imo.
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Imo except for zvz, Jaedong is too inconsistent. When he wants to, he goes and completely dominates his opponents. But then there are still days where he decides he doesn't care, and loses games through carelessless, or somehow just gets raped. I don't think a bonjwa can have bad days like that. Jaedong's losses can't really imo be called flukes, they're quite legitimate. So aside from zvz he's not unbeatable, atm.
He's a zvz bonjwa though :O
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Why is it so hard for people to understand that no one is a bonjwa now?
Jaedong barely beat Bisu in his Bo5, is 2-2 with Flash in recent games, and played a close OSL final with Fantasy.
He's doing great, but I wouldn't say he's close to bonjwa with so many other great players out there.
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On April 21 2009 11:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
The article makes such a retarded argument. Just because people can "beat" Jaedong so he can't be considered bonjwa? I love how he conveniently overlooks stuff like Chojja beating Savior in a MSL in the midst of his "bonjwa domination." He's trying to make it sound like JD needs 100% winrate against everyone or something. Stupid argument imo.
Savior was actually not considered a bonjwa at this time. People only recognized Savior as a Bonjwa AFTER savior beat Nada in OSL.
And yes, indeed his ZvsZ was his weak matchup, until he went to the MSL Finals again to disprove that, beating Silver. At the time nobody "seemed" like they could beat SAvior.
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On April 21 2009 12:05 integral wrote:
there are some ridiculous posts in this thread, there is obviously debate
Now this is a ridiculous post. Of course we can call Jaedong a bonjwa. Should we? I have already stated my opinion on that.
Edit:
On April 21 2009 11:45 Jyvblamo wrote:
No. No we can't. There is debate.
This post is even more ridiculous
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On April 21 2009 11:50 pubbanana wrote:
NO!!!!!
if pubbanana says no
then no
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I think JD is not going to win any more games vs Fantasy
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United States20661 Posts
How many times does this have to be reiterated?
If there is a doubt, he is not bonjwa. Goddamnit.
Closing this unless someone convinces me there is possibility of discussion in this thread.
These bonjwa threads are retarded. If someone becomes bonjwa, there will be no need for a thread declaring him as such. I don't remember sAviOr becoming bonjwa or iloveoov becoming bonjwa threads -_-
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No, it's too early to tell. I don't want to rule out the possibility of a bonjwa (for anyone), but it still seems equally unlikely at this point as it did a few months ago.
Although, something that shocked me about sAviOr was the sheer amount of games he dropped. Though this is probably due to a lighter emphasize on proleague where Savior could rape scrubs, he was taken to the limit in many Bo5s but always prevailed for the most part.
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I agree that it is too early to call Jaedong a bonjwa yet. I would say give him another year before we decide. All the other bonjwa dominated for a long long time before they were dethroned and each of them got 3msl and atleast 1osl (except for boxer). And i thought bonjwa was given to a progamer who was able to win 3 msl and atleast 1 osl....
Someone correct me if i'm wrong.
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Even what was known to be Savior's weakest match up ZvsZ was proven wrong when Savior beat s.s.mSilver, the "gambler".
All in all, it can be said at the time, there was simply NO pro gamer out there who was able to beat Savior.
What? Because he beat an average zvzer?
wtf terrible reasoning
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I see.
Savior was a bonjwa not only because of his amazing records, but because anyone who actually stood a chance against him... stood no chance against him.
Jaedong, however, still loses, not regularly, but he does, to bisu and flash, etc. Despite his amazing record, he can not be bonjwa yet.
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On April 21 2009 12:13 Last Romantic wrote:
How many times does this have to be reiterated?
If there is a doubt, he is not bonjwa. Goddamnit.
Seriously this.
Think back to when the real bonjwa were in their prime. There was probably a 99.5% consensus on who the best player was at the time. And while many people would say jaedong now, its nothing likt it was with say, NaDa. And even if we do get that high rate of consensus, which maybe Bisu came close to or Jaedong is close to now, theres more to it. That player has to be a a level above everyone else. His games should be awe inspiring to the point that every game is unbelieable to watch.
If Jaedong became as dominant at his other matchups as his ZvZ, and held this position for a significant amount of time, then the possibility exists. But to say he is bonwja now, well thats just foolish.
P.S. Personally, I do not think another Bonjwa will arise before SC2. The game is too figured out(although people have said this for years) and the level of competition is too high.
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No.
Thats all I have to say to this thread, and all the other 1209381029487 threads that say that someone is the next bonjwa. (unless of course it is Upmagic or Leta or Horang2 or hyvaa or Really being called a bonjwa (man that would be the day))...
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JD is very close
i would love to see another Zerg Bonjwa
go JaeDong!
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Others have said it better than I can. No he is not.
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he is not yet but he will be thats for sure
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Bonjwa? meh does it really matter that much?
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I don't really understand the replies in this thread. The OP is a translation of an article on ygosu.com, not a personal explanation about the subject. Probably should have been designated a little more cleanly, but the discussion of whether JD is or is not a bonjwa should not be forefront in comparison to thanking someone for a translation of an article written on a fairly popular korean SC site.
Thanks for the translation!
Edit: btw, for those mentioning it: Winning x MSLs, then losing one then winning an OSL has nothing to do with the term Bonjwa. Was merely an aspect all of the players had gone through that was mentioned by the writer of that thread; he even stated that fact in his thread to avoid confusion. The Bonjwa title does not correspond in any fashion to that progression.
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This is ridiculous. I thought it was already stated that sAviOr was the Last bonjwa and forever always be.
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Jaedong, to me, is just a very good starcraft player. As far as bonjwa-ness goes though, he's probably the closest one.
He's a mirror matchup bonjwa though, no doubt about that~
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
God not another bonjwa discussion...
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Im a huge Jaedong fan, but there is no way you can call him bonjwa yet. He is without question THE zvz bonjwa...but unfortunately there are two other matchups that are still sometimes toss ups.
People right now are just fanboying over his two OSL's and his good runs in proleague/winners league. Savior still dropped games in proleague so I won't count things like SkyHigh against Jaedong. But there are still players who, although you could argue Jaedong as a favorite, still have a VERY good shot at beating him (Flash, Fantasy, Bisu). If he wins another major league against good competition (no string of ZvZ's) and doesn't get outplayed to often (dropping a game here or there is ok considering the higher skill level of todays programmers) then I can see the argument being made
but not right now, he still needs to prove he can maintain his dominance.
right now he is certainly the closest thing we have to one right now though
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I don't there will be another Bonjawa in BW ever. And no, Jaedong isn't a Bonjawa.
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Close this please bonjwa discussions are just annoying and are a way for fanboys to stroke their epeens to their puppetmaster.
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no, not dominant enough yet
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On April 21 2009 12:13 Last Romantic wrote:
How many times does this have to be reiterated?
If there is a doubt, he is not bonjwa. Goddamnit.
Not that I disagree with you, but with progamers as good as they are now and fan opinions as ravingly cemented as they have become, even if Jaedong went to beat Bisu Flash and Fantasy in the next 3 games he came up against them, people would just make excuses like "Flash is slumping, he's good enough to beat Jaedong, Jaedong isn't bonjwa," and you can replace Flash with anyone worth mentioning, honestly.
Back in the days of Savior, savior was almost everyone's favorite player on top of being the top dog. Jaedong's pretty easily the best player around (top %, the only player with an instant win match up more or less, 2 OSL titles etc etc), but since he hasn't ALWAYS been overly dominant, he will never change the minds of people dedicated to other players now.
And, for what it's worth, while Savior was on another level in his time, he still dropped plenty of games in his Bonjwa days. Nowadays you'd have to go 100% for 20 games against all S class opponents before anyone but that player's fans consider the word Bonjwa. It's different times, multiple people have the magic so it's easy not to recognize one, even if one is better. Short of 20 straight S class wins, the only way I would think anyone but Jaedong fans would say Bonjwa is if he won back to back OSLs like Boxer, otherwise it just isn't gonna happen.
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+ Show Spoiler +He just lost to fantasy. A bonjwa should look somewhat invincible and be a solid favorite against everyone. The competition is way too close to crown anyone a bonjwa when the top spoit is traded pretty much every month. People like savior and oov ruthlessly dominated everyone and they were unquestionably the best. Jaedong may be considered the best for now but the fact that his spot can be questioned automatically says that he is not a bonjwa.
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Maybe if he hadn't blown the Winners League Grand Finals doing a silly little 5 pool. His game was Hwasin was pretty ridiculous though. His muta micro borders on imba.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 21 2009 13:37 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Not that I disagree with you, but with progamers as good as they are now and fan opinions as ravingly cemented as they have become, even if Jaedong went to beat Bisu Flash and Fantasy in the next 3 games he came up against them, people would just make excuses like "Flash is slumping, he's good enough to beat Jaedong, Jaedong isn't bonjwa," and you can replace Flash with anyone worth mentioning, honestly.
Thats because 3 games wouldn't make a dent on their career win-loss records against one another. A bonjwa, while potentially dropping games to his opponents, pretty much had a dominantly winning record whe compared to any opponent with which he had a significant number of games. At this point, its pretty much impossible for any given player to have a convincing winning record compared to all his opponents. They're all too close in skill.
On April 21 2009 13:37 TwoToneTerran wrote:
And, for what it's worth, while Savior was on another level in his time, he still dropped plenty of games in his Bonjwa days. Nowadays you'd have to go 100% for 20 games against all S class opponents before anyone but that player's fans consider the word Bonjwa.
Its not about dropping games, its about losing far less than the guy who could be considered the next-best. Fact of the matter is, Jaedong doesn't win games significantly more often than Bisu or Flash. Even if he is doing better than them RIGHT NOW, he hasn't done consistently better for a long period of time.
100% for 20 games against S-class opponents is an exaggeration. He just needs to be winning games while his competitors aren't, and Jaedong isn't doing that. His record is just as pockmarked as any of the other bonjwas-to-be.
On April 21 2009 13:37 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It's different times, multiple people have the magic so it's easy not to recognize one, even if one is better. Short of 20 straight S class wins, the only way I would think anyone but Jaedong fans would say Bonjwa is if he won back to back OSLs like Boxer, otherwise it just isn't gonna happen.
So coin a different term. Bonjwa means something specific. Its not just whatever the hell someone feels like making it mean to attach a title to their favorite progamer.
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All people need to at least except greatness. I for instance, am not a fan of savior, yet I can say without a doubt he was a bonjwa. If anti-fans can't at least agree to the player dominating, then there is no discussion. Even anti-fans were hoping he'd lose the last OSL so they wouldn't have to call him bonjwa, because they knew that if he won, they'd really be ignorant to say he isn't at least worthy of the title.
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I'm starting to get really sick of the word 'bonjwa'. It is basically reading a word over and over again, and 3/4 of the time when you read it, the word is used incorrectly. And it infuriates the pedant in me.
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Braavos36374 Posts
No, he's not the 5th bonjwa. If he wins the next MSL and OSL both, then yes. Now? No.
Lets not keep discussing this, its a pretty annoying and tired topic by now.
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