EPT[D] MBS Discussion II - Page 22
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prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
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Wraithlin
United Kingdom50 Posts
People need help getting going now if you dont want every new player to quit after being crushed in the first 10 or so BNet games. [e] I find it ironic that after 20 pages we are baco to "Macro = button clicks". Sorry but the main arguement against MBS is that it allows a plyer to macro without taking his focus off his army, how is that any different from 1z2z3z... with unlimited hotkeys. The issue is that the player can build all his units without taking his screen off his army, not that mbs reduces army building from 10 clicks to 1 click. If you are arguing that unlimited hotkeys is ok, but MBS is not then you are arguing that macro is nothing but hitting keys quickly. And you have undermined arguments from the anti-MBS crowd that have been propping up this thread for so long. And yet people like Testie want more hotkeys .... | ||
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Fuu
198 Posts
On January 31 2008 09:58 Wraithlin wrote: If you are arguing that unlimited hotkeys is ok, but MBS is not then you are arguing that macro is nothing but hitting keys quickly. And you have undermined arguments from the anti-MBS crowd that have been propping up this thread for so long. And yet people like Testie want more hotkeys .... Or we'd argue that a 'part' of macro is indeed taking the time to HIT some keys. hahaha, really you're posting all over this topic without even understanding the bases. I don't blame you though, it's the same here for many others. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5434 Posts
On January 31 2008 09:58 Wraithlin wrote: People didnt need MBS when the best SC player in the world had 100 apm. People need help getting going now if you dont want every new player to quit after being crushed in the first 10 or so BNet games. This will not happen in an AMM system, they might lose their first couple games (maybe not), and then start playing people who are worse and worse (aka, their own skill level) | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On January 31 2008 02:05 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: I can agree with you on the queens but the rest is bullshit. A DA is what, 250 mins, 200 gas, starts with feedback which costs 50 mana. Mid to late game you see pros throwing away HT's like candy sometimes even sacrificing to try to get storms in on a static army. If you can afford 5 or 6 HT's in your army you can afford 250/200 for a unit that will pay for itself if it manages to use it's ability twice, especially since it's very likely that it will allways have the mana to do that and since it's hard to snipe. Same thing against zergs who run their defilers up to plauge armies even more often (and which is harder to stop). If pro's could do it they would. And yes they use them at times but it's rare (just look at the comments on games when they do bring them out) even though they *allways* have the avalible tech to do so. Medics? Medics are 50/25 a single vessel is 100/225 and restore is 50. You think it would have been used more if it required less energy? Doubtfull, just add two more medics or so and use restore ONLY when you can pull back vessels safely after a irradiate run which ended badly and it would still be worth it. Just to much micro involved to do it even for pros. It's not cost effective when it comes to time but it's easily cost effective when it comes to resources. Also anyone who think BW is 50/50 macro/micro is deluded. If you measure by importance it's more like 40/60 or even higher towards macro. Extreme macro is a requirment to be able to figth in the higher leauges today. Extreme micro may win you a few games but a lack of macro will loose you most games. Why do you think the game is evolving towards more and more macro? Because it's what you win games by so pro's work more towards it, which proves that it's more important. I don't see the problem in switching so it's 60/40 towards micro. Just like there is "micro" players today there will be macro players tomorow, it's just that the ratio will change. Perhaps not even enough to make micro more important than macro, perhaps macro will still be on top, just not as much. No. Firstly you need DTs early and mid game because map control matters. If i have two DTs i can control many locations on the map, picking off expo drones or spotter lings. Late game more expos are taken, DTs play less of a crucial role because the next places to expand are more obvious and accessable to both players because their tech trees are finished and they both control more of the map. DAs play an incredibliy important role with melee storm vs ultras and feedback, but only late game. Further more feedback is one of the EASIEST spells to cast and micro well in the game. This is due to the fact that feedback has unbelieveable range and has little if any cool down time. pros DO do this, so i suggest you start watching more proleague games because you sound like a retard. I even see people doing this on iccup FFS. And using restoration on your own vessels after you irradiate them is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. firstly if your using irriadiate on your vessels then they are most likely not near your army, so irradiate would have worn off by then. But even if your army was near by all you'd need to do is not float your vessels over your own marines. There's no point in using restoration because vessels running from scourge while irriadiated have a higher chance of surviving. So there is basically NO point in waisting medic energy on something as stupid as restoration. You don't know how to play this game. MBS just makes things easier for players who are sloopy and can't keep up. It's like the having autocast for macro, it may be more efficient at times to macro it yourself, but in the end your still helping a bad player out which is stupid if your making an esport. | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On January 31 2008 09:58 Wraithlin wrote: People didnt need MBS when the best SC player in the world had 100 apm. People need help getting going now if you dont want every new player to quit after being crushed in the first 10 or so BNet games. players who quit after 10 games of SC because they're too upset they can't bind all their buildings to one key probably arn't cut out for RTS games to begin with. I'm sure those people will go back to easy blizzard games like world of warcraft. i'm sure there will be just as many players horrified by the ability for other players to outmicro them or rush them early on. This is just part of the game and i don't see why we need to cater to newbies who are so sensitive they will give up after getting owned 10 games. | ||
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BlackSphinx
Canada317 Posts
On January 31 2008 08:37 prOxi.swAMi wrote: Players don't need MBS as a crutch to get them into the game. If it were true nobody would've ever got into sc. Gee golly whiz, but SC is full of crutches. 12 unit selection up from 9. Unit queues. Much easier controls Slower game speed It's just Warcraft in space. That's what was heard when it got released. By the Kali WC2 pro fanbase. Guess what, it didn't turn out too bad. Wc3 was called a noob game too and turned out great as well, beating SC in popularity everywhere but in Korea. My guess is simple: SC2 will kick ass as well. But seriously, if the game is going to hold so much micro and ability opportunities, macro needs to be made a bit easier. which is not much, because you'll still have to manually use the buildings for unit mixes. | ||
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Wraithlin
United Kingdom50 Posts
On January 31 2008 11:10 Fuu wrote: Or we'd argue that a 'part' of macro is indeed taking the time to HIT some keys. hahaha, really you're posting all over this topic without even understanding the bases. I don't blame you though, it's the same here for many others. Except we established about 15 pages back that the time is functionally zero. So you are wrong, we are not arguing that the time to hit keys is important, anti-MBS gave up on that idea quite a while ago as a line of argument. Most pros can macro 10 rax/gateways/whatever in under a second, its not even a thought process for them. The time cost is almost entirely tied up with the fact they have to take their eyes off their map for a seconds; which is why pros want more hotkeys, so they can macro without having to leave their army. But FUNCTIONALLY that is identical to MBS, the difference being between 1 click and 10 clicks. What you dont understand is the argument to this point. Macro is not "how fast can I mash a keyboard", thats a pretty mundane mechanical skill. More importantly its a skill that only matters at lower levels of the game, for pro players the time cost in building units is functionally 0 or as close to zero as it can get. So the argument is "Do you want lower level games decided by who can hit their keyboard faster" and hey, no we dont. YOU might like that, but you have a vested interest in the status quo. So the question becomes "How does MBS lower macro, if macro is not just keyboard mashing". The anti-MBS line is that MBS will simplify macro because you never need to leave oyur army: look at MyLostTemples post a few pages back where his very argument hinges around being able to macro without leaving his army. Now tell me how, functionally, MBS and more hotkeys are different in this sense. Both allow you to macro without leaving your armies, but one is "pro" and "endorsed by pros" and one is "Noob" and "Ruining the game". Its hypocracy born of ignorance, poor logic, and ultimately elitism. The SC elite have a vested interests in a game and skillset they have already developed and are, understandably trying to maintain that status-quo. Im going to go out on a limb and bet that MBS goes in whatever people argue here on the forums. MyLostTemple: I disagree, there are alot of younger players who are going to want pretty immediate gratification in the forum of sucess, and some of these guys are the players of the future. Do you think Kasparov fell in love with Chess by being destroyed for his first 1000+ games, or do you think he was encouraged because his parent and tutors let him taste success? Yes appropriate elo rating matchs are a big part of this, but lowering the barrier to entry is never a bad thing for any sport. More people = more competition. | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
Removing MBS and adding more hotkeys is a better solution. MBS dosn't have the risk of double queing... something that can happen often if using SBS. Since SBS is still slightly faster than MBS players who are better are put at a larger risk of double queing since ultimately SBS methods could be faster. Now i don't see why a fast player needs to be punished for something and a bad player rewarded in another area. That sounds like a crappy esport. More hotkeys allows for more diverse hotkey setups, a skill that starcraft has more so than warcraft 3. That would keep SC2 more like SC and not like war3. elitism?... well Starcraft is comprised of the best RTS gamers in the world, i suppose we are elitist because we're proud that we own at the most challenging game in the world. Even war3 players often tell me they know SC takes more skill. Blizzard has some big shoes to fill too... i don't think those feet will fit with MBS automing and the other newbifications attached. I, and many other SC gamers, want to see this ultimiate competitive esport carried on into future generations, not swallowed up in newbifications that deter from it's competitive style. There are already many new gamers to SC who are young and fresh. I know some who are 14, even a 13 year old in korea that plays pretty damn well at the PC bang i live next to. You have far too much doubt in the future gamer generation. Not everyone will pick up this game and want to go pro, there will be tons of UMSers and BGHers. Keep MBS as a setting and we can have another community of people who can't handle intense competition and dicipline. I just hope blizzard dosn't think like you. And i don't think your kasprov argument holds any weight. He was a genius and a prefectionist. He hated losing so much he spent his entire life mastering chess. Your idea of this game involves lowering the skill ceiling... as if it won't have enough of a fan base on it's release. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Most pros can macro 10 rax/gateways/whatever in under a second, its not even a thought process for them. The time cost is almost entirely tied up with the fact they have to take their eyes off their map for a seconds; which is why pros want more hotkeys, so they can macro without having to leave their army. But FUNCTIONALLY that is identical to MBS, the difference being between 1 click and 10 clicks. Uhu. That's right, 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z is only marginally slower than 4z, but what about when you have 25 gateways? Suddenly you move from something that takes a bit of time to do to "1 click 25 units", or 2 clicks 12+13 units of whatever type. What about for terran when you play TvZ, there's no way you'll have more than what, 5 rax keyed? The rest will be going to your army/comsats. MBS would be a pretty huge change here, as it'd suddenly allow you to key all your rax, your fac, your starports and still have keys left over for your units. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On January 31 2008 18:00 MyLostTemple wrote: Removing MBS and adding more hotkeys is a better solution. Let´s just do that. Easier Micro AND Macro for everyone. | ||
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Wraithlin
United Kingdom50 Posts
On January 31 2008 18:00 MyLostTemple wrote: i don't see how macro suddenly became mindless button mashing... i'm guessing you don't play this game much. macroing dosn't always take around a second to do like your saying it does. I was entirely replying to this: On January 31 2008 11:10 Fuu wrote: Or we'd argue that a 'part' of macro is indeed taking the time to HIT some keys. hahaha, really you're posting all over this topic without even understanding the bases. I don't blame you though, it's the same here for many others. I was not arguing macro is mindless button mashing, I was infact entirely agreeing with you, MyLostTemple, that macro is division of time and attention. I was disagreeing with fu who said "Macro is how long you take to hit 1z2z3z4z5z and therefore MBS destroys macro." Further, macro is more than building units, but we are focusing on unit production because this is the only aspect of macro affected by MBS: unit upgrades, supply increase, expanding, directing workers, moving up the tech tree etc are not influenced by MBS at all. So no, macro does not take about a second, but building units does, FPVoDs show that pros spend at most 1-2seconds building units; if you blink you will miss it. Infact, if you want to follow that line you automatically must conceed that MBS will have only a marginal effect because it affects only on part of the many activites comprising macro. MyLostTemple and Frozen. I ask you to read MyLostTemples post about momentum. His argument (simplified) is that because MBS doesnt require the zerg player to return to his hatcheries and take his eye off his army, it makes it easier for him to control his army and preserve his advantage. I ask you to consider wether, given unlimited hotkeys, he would not have that same advantage? Frozen, you yourself refered to this: At some point you run out of hotkeys and have to return to click-selection. Its at that point that you take your eyes off your army, you have to divert your attention rather than go through an automatic series of button pushes with one hand while still focusing on your army. There is even a quote from pro players in this thread indicating that, at the highest level, training revolves not about mechanics, which are assumed, but where to divide their attention. Unlimited hotkeys removes this division of attention because the player will learn to simply hit a longer chain of keys without having to think about it, from muscular memory of the actions. Unlimited hotkeys and MBS have the same influence on macro at the very top levels because the limitng factor is not APM, but having to divide attention. At lower levels unlimited hotkeys favours old players over new, while MBS favours neither. [e] To a reasonable point, there are human limitations on say, trying to hotkey more than 20-25 groups, and functional issues to do with keyboard size and layout. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2620 Posts
On January 31 2008 14:09 MyLostTemple wrote: No. Firstly you need DTs early and mid game because map control matters. If i have two DTs i can control many locations on the map, picking off expo drones or spotter lings. Late game more expos are taken, DTs play less of a crucial role because the next places to expand are more obvious and accessable to both players because their tech trees are finished and they both control more of the map. DAs play an incredibliy important role with melee storm vs ultras and feedback, but only late game. Further more feedback is one of the EASIEST spells to cast and micro well in the game. This is due to the fact that feedback has unbelieveable range and has little if any cool down time. pros DO do this, so i suggest you start watching more proleague games because you sound like a retard. I even see people doing this on iccup FFS. And using restoration on your own vessels after you irradiate them is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. firstly if your using irriadiate on your vessels then they are most likely not near your army, so irradiate would have worn off by then. But even if your army was near by all you'd need to do is not float your vessels over your own marines. There's no point in using restoration because vessels running from scourge while irriadiated have a higher chance of surviving. So there is basically NO point in waisting medic energy on something as stupid as restoration. You don't know how to play this game. MBS just makes things easier for players who are sloopy and can't keep up. It's like the having autocast for macro, it may be more efficient at times to macro it yourself, but in the end your still helping a bad player out which is stupid if your making an esport. Work on your reading comprehension. Work on your elitism. Work on your logic. Work on at least trying to keep the same train of arguments in the thread instead of changing your opinion every 10 pages. Work on your manner. Then come talk to me. Because rigth now your bringing nothing to the debate except rabid, incoherent babbling and I think you realise this yourself. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
For whatever it's worth, unlimited hotkeys doesn't really strike me as a good thing, just gonna get cluttered. It would still be much more demanding than MBS tho, but I don't really like either option. EDIT: Also, my argument is mostly that as the game goes on, MBS becomes more and more effective compared to hotkeying, even unlimited hotkeying as there's eventually a point (as you said yourself) where you won't be able to keep up + clicking 25 hotkeys is gonna take a significant amount of time as well. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
A homogenous production in time and kind is, strictly speaking, ineffective unless pure mass makes up for inadequate forces. That is called the "Tank Rush", the original term for bad balancing in RTS. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2620 Posts
On January 31 2008 21:58 FrozenArbiter wrote: Bleh, maybe I'll read through the thread, not like I have anything better to do (flu fucking sucks -.-). For whatever it's worth, unlimited hotkeys doesn't really strike me as a good thing, just gonna get cluttered. It would still be much more demanding than MBS tho, but I don't really like either option. EDIT: Also, my argument is mostly that as the game goes on, MBS becomes more and more effective compared to hotkeying, even unlimited hotkeying as there's eventually a point (as you said yourself) where you won't be able to keep up + clicking 25 hotkeys is gonna take a significant amount of time as well. Not really. 25 hotkeys would take Nada about 7 seconds if you count 2 clicks per production facility or about 4 if it auto tabs. Regardless, why would he build from his 25 production facilities at the same time? It's much easier to just let 300-400 mins build up and then take a second or two to activate 4 production facilities when you have the spare time. As long as you have hotkeys that's not hard to do at all. I can do it while microing mutas as long as I have hotkeyed hatches with avalible larva at hand and I have 120 APM. Just keep one eye at the gas level and when it hits 100 you go 7sm8sz and back to mutas. It's starts being troublesome when I have to many zerglings and mutas and I have to go back to manually find some idle larva, that's when your micro starts to suffer. Before that you can allways find a small window of opportunity to build something (if nothing else just fly away for 3 seconds). | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Having 25 hotkeys would be a much bigger increase in practice simply because you can't take the speed with which they click 7 hotkeys and just apply it to a 25 hotkey system. Where are you gonna put the 25 hotkeys? Are you going to take into account the way bigger likelihood of error? The fact that 7 seconds without microing is gonna be pretty much a certain death if you are in battle, unlike 4z5d producing 25 units with MBS. I just don't think more hotkeys can be considered an equivalent to MBS, and I don't even really care much about the MBS debate anymore (ie I'm gonna wait til beta and see what happens). As for the comment about why you should wait until you have enough minerals to build out of all your gates/rax at once, well, that's why I said MBS has a much bigger impact late game. When you have 4k minerals, clicking 4m to build 15 marines is pretty much optimal. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2620 Posts
At least that's they way I'd do it. Even if you just use F1-8 you have 40 potential hotkeys that are easy to reach. Of course I think Blizzard have stated that users will be able to customize their hotkeys so I guess one could pick any one of them. (The numpad has 18 hotkeys if nothing else). | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5567 Posts
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almostfamous
United States10 Posts
On February 01 2008 00:18 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: (The numpad has 18 hotkeys if nothing else). Not everybody who plays has a numberpad, so thats not an option. | ||
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