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On February 01 2008 11:31 MyLostTemple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2008 21:01 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On January 31 2008 14:09 MyLostTemple wrote:On January 31 2008 02:05 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On January 30 2008 07:07 MyLostTemple wrote:
where in the fuck are you getting the idea DAs arn't used competitvely because their too micro intensive. firstly DAs are used competitively, especially in PvZ but also in PvP at times. the problem is you have to morph two DTs to make a DA.... most of the time that's not very COST EFFECTIVE because dts are very valuble and more versitle than DAs are. DAs are only required late late game. I can't believe you actually think medic abilities arn't used because their too micro intensive, lol. Medics absolutely need their energy to heal marines, not blind units. And if you mean restoration there are too few instances to use this, unless ofcourse you got parasited... but then again how often do players get queens? not too often because they're not very COST EFFECTIVE either.
obviously a player can still macro slightly faster by not using MBS. The problem is that they arn't peanalized as much for getting behind. There is also no risk for double queing with MBS where there is for SBS. That's bad.
also, when a metagame forms there WILL be moments when players can and can not attack each other. when they can't attack each other they must macro, but not with such ease. i'm also all for more hotkeys, i think that would be great. I can agree with you on the queens but the rest is bullshit. A DA is what, 250 mins, 200 gas, starts with feedback which costs 50 mana. Mid to late game you see pros throwing away HT's like candy sometimes even sacrificing to try to get storms in on a static army. If you can afford 5 or 6 HT's in your army you can afford 250/200 for a unit that will pay for itself if it manages to use it's ability twice, especially since it's very likely that it will allways have the mana to do that and since it's hard to snipe. Same thing against zergs who run their defilers up to plauge armies even more often (and which is harder to stop). If pro's could do it they would. And yes they use them at times but it's rare (just look at the comments on games when they do bring them out) even though they *allways* have the avalible tech to do so. Medics? Medics are 50/25 a single vessel is 100/225 and restore is 50. You think it would have been used more if it required less energy? Doubtfull, just add two more medics or so and use restore ONLY when you can pull back vessels safely after a irradiate run which ended badly and it would still be worth it. Just to much micro involved to do it even for pros. It's not cost effective when it comes to time but it's easily cost effective when it comes to resources. Also anyone who think BW is 50/50 macro/micro is deluded. If you measure by importance it's more like 40/60 or even higher towards macro. Extreme macro is a requirment to be able to figth in the higher leauges today. Extreme micro may win you a few games but a lack of macro will loose you most games. Why do you think the game is evolving towards more and more macro? Because it's what you win games by so pro's work more towards it, which proves that it's more important. I don't see the problem in switching so it's 60/40 towards micro. Just like there is "micro" players today there will be macro players tomorow, it's just that the ratio will change. Perhaps not even enough to make micro more important than macro, perhaps macro will still be on top, just not as much. No. Firstly you need DTs early and mid game because map control matters. If i have two DTs i can control many locations on the map, picking off expo drones or spotter lings. Late game more expos are taken, DTs play less of a crucial role because the next places to expand are more obvious and accessable to both players because their tech trees are finished and they both control more of the map. DAs play an incredibliy important role with melee storm vs ultras and feedback, but only late game. Further more feedback is one of the EASIEST spells to cast and micro well in the game. This is due to the fact that feedback has unbelieveable range and has little if any cool down time. pros DO do this, so i suggest you start watching more proleague games because you sound like a retard. I even see people doing this on iccup FFS. And using restoration on your own vessels after you irradiate them is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. firstly if your using irriadiate on your vessels then they are most likely not near your army, so irradiate would have worn off by then. But even if your army was near by all you'd need to do is not float your vessels over your own marines. There's no point in using restoration because vessels running from scourge while irriadiated have a higher chance of surviving. So there is basically NO point in waisting medic energy on something as stupid as restoration. You don't know how to play this game. MBS just makes things easier for players who are sloopy and can't keep up. It's like the having autocast for macro, it may be more efficient at times to macro it yourself, but in the end your still helping a bad player out which is stupid if your making an esport. Work on your reading comprehension. Work on your elitism. Work on your logic. Work on at least trying to keep the same train of arguments in the thread instead of changing your opinion every 10 pages. Work on your manner. Then come talk to me. Because rigth now your bringing nothing to the debate except rabid, incoherent babbling and I think you realise this yourself. If i'm being overly rude i apologize but when someone is saying information about this game that is simply incorrect i wont hesitate to put them in their place. i've done it before and i'll do it again. anyone who thinks medics should be waisting mana restoring vessels after they've irradiated them dosn't know how to play this game.your arguing that progamers can't preform complex micro with specific units becuase the macro burden is too heavy. In actuality many of these abilities arn't cost effective. There's nothing incoherent about my arguments.
Doubtfull, just add two more medics or so and use restore ONLY when you can pull back vessels safely after a irradiate run which ended badly and it would still be worth it. Just to much micro involved to do it even for pros.
Where in this sentence to I mention removing irradiate from vessels? For anyone with a basic knowledge of starcraft and some understanding of the English language (and within the context of the subject) it's pretty clear what I mean. Others seem to get it.
Irradiate run = flying away with your vessels to irradiate things like ultras and defilers. A pretty common strategy in TvZ.
Ending badly = One of the defilers getting in a nice plauge.
Net effect is that you have a lot of plauged vessels hovering over your idling army since the zerg can't kill them rigth after the plauge. This happens rather frequently and would be a perfect time to restore the vessels.
Work on your reading comprehension.
Work on your elitism.
Work on your logic.
Work on at least trying to keep the same train of arguments in the thread instead of changing your opinion every 10 pages.
Work on your manner.
Then come talk to me. Because rigth now your bringing nothing to the debate except rabid, incoherent babbling and I think you realise this yourself.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
OOPS LOL
however i still don't think necessarily cost effective to spend extra energy on restoration. too much gas for the upgrade and the spell itself. it's cheaper to just repair them after it wears off. if it was say... 15 energy, well maybe that would be a diffrent story. the units and abilities you don't see in starcraft are not used simply because of their stats or cost efficency, not becuase of the macro burden. so while i apparently can't read my argument is still valid.
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On February 01 2008 18:04 Waves wrote:
What do you mean by that? That protoss units should pop out very quickly when built, but that the building then goes into a cooldown phase during which it can't build anything? It's sort of interesting, but I think it would be too hard for weaker protoss players to cope with. It would mean they had no build queues.
Well yeah, the protoss buildings charge up their energy or whatever. Then when someone gives the order to build a zealot, a second later its there. The gateway then recharges, with the recharge time being dependant on what unit is built. It would fit well with lore and would provide an interesting new playstyle.
For example, a protoss players might not bother building units until the enemy is on their doorstep, and then as the enemy is walking up their ramp, they tell their gateways to produce, and they have an instant army to fight with. Downsides of this are the fact that you would have to keep the money in your bank to pay for those units, so its adds a bit of a dynamic as to should a protoss save his money for a just in case, should he be more risky etc. Also, it would be good if an enemy is in your base, rather than to just go 5z and have a zealot at a random gateway, you could select the gateway that allows you to block off a section with the produced unit etc. I think there would be a lot of interesting tricks that protoss players could perform.
Ques would still work, just it would work in reverse, so you get the unit before having to pay for the cooldown. Most importantly this would give protoss a very unique style, seeing as currently it is the same as the terran's.
The teleporting ability would still be an upgrade for your buildings, that has whatever limitations blizzard thinks is good.
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I think they didn´t add queues because they don´t have a satisfactionary solution what to do with queued units once the "target" spot is no longer "Pyloned".
Impressive strategies are risky strategies. Macro is "playing it safe", as I argued before and therefore booring. Take a look at the SClegays "Pimpest Plays". Most of them are the gameplay equivalent to Russian Rulette. Perfect execution is not enough, there needs to be the "thrill" of possible spectecuar failure. Only a minority of Pros today is willing to take risks leading to repetative games.
There is basically no risk involved with Macro, making it uniteresteing for spectators. Why are nukes so awesome? Other games have them (or a equvalent) too but a C&C nuke is never as awesome as a succesfull SC nuke, even though the C&C nuke is better animated than the whole of SC.
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On February 01 2008 19:15 Fen wrote:
Ques would still work, just it would work in reverse, so you get the unit before having to pay for the cooldown. Most importantly this would give protoss a very unique style, seeing as currently it is the same as the terran's.
I'm not sure if you understood my point about queues. The reason for a queue (in this context) is to allow a weaker player to improve their macro a bit by queuing up their units so they aren't having to constantly remember to go back and build them.
It's less efficient than building them one at a time, just as the resources come in, but it's quite a help for weaker players nevertheless. As Dustin said in his description of the Warp-In process, weaker players will switch their warp gates back to gateways in order to get the production queues back and help their macro, whereas strong players who can macro well without an queues will just leave them as warp gates all the time.
If you remove that ability to 'store' clicks then weak protoss players could have a lot of trouble against weak players of the other two races.
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On February 01 2008 19:55 Waves wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2008 19:15 Fen wrote:
Ques would still work, just it would work in reverse, so you get the unit before having to pay for the cooldown. Most importantly this would give protoss a very unique style, seeing as currently it is the same as the terran's. If you remove that ability to 'store' clicks then weak protoss players could have a lot of trouble against weak players of the other two races.
Could you please explain what you mean by storing clicks? Im not sure I understand your argument.
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On February 01 2008 23:20 Fen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2008 19:55 Waves wrote:On February 01 2008 19:15 Fen wrote:
Ques would still work, just it would work in reverse, so you get the unit before having to pay for the cooldown. Most importantly this would give protoss a very unique style, seeing as currently it is the same as the terran's. If you remove that ability to 'store' clicks then weak protoss players could have a lot of trouble against weak players of the other two races. Could you please explain what you mean by storing clicks? Im not sure I understand your argument.
I think he means that a weaker player can que 5 zealots in their gateways. For a good player this would be bad for their macro but a new player doesn't have the skill to go back everytime something has finished building. He needs to be able to "store" his klicks in the gateway by queing up several zealots so that he can focus on something else or he wouldn't be able to build them at all.
So if one race cannot do this then on the noob level the other races have a serious advantage.
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It is not about competativness.
Imagine learning to play like learning to ride bikes. Before you can ride fast you need to learn to balance. You get support wheels(?) for that. Once you can balance they only slow you down.
Queues and MBS are the same as support wheels. They make learning the game a lot easier but for "serious" playing they are more or less useless. But it helps new players not to fall flat on their face.
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On February 01 2008 14:51 Phyre wrote:@Meh: Minor note, but if you're going to bold the word "thousandth" 3 times in short order, you might want to spell check it.  A good number of the spells you listed aren't cost effective as far as I know, thus wouldn't be used even if the players had the attention/time to use them if they wanted to. Hallucination for example I'm fairly sure is far outclassed by storm. Ensnare is very very situation specific and doesn't really justify the cost of a queen in my opinion. You also mention mind control or broodling on Ultras, both of which seem like very poor choices or unlikely situations. Why would you want to MC just one Ultra when you could Maelstrom a group? Also, if you MC you only get 1 then your DA will most likely bite the dust or it will be awhile before it can cast MC again. Broodlings on an Ultra seems an unlikely setup since I don't remember seeing all that many ultras in ZvZ. Someone correct me if I'm wrong there, I don't watch too many ZvZs. I don't think the progamers don't do these fancy maneuvers because they can't. Rather they choose not to for the aforementioned reasons most of the time.
Gurr, edited :p
As far as the use of hallucination, whether a storm is better than two hallucinated units is kind of hard to decide, because their application and execution are so different. Hallucination, I believe, costs 25 more energy than storm. It gives two fake units that are indistinguishable from real ones, besides the amount of dmg they can take, which, theoretically, in bulk could offload alot of damage from your real units. Also worth noting is that the best time to cast it would be right before you go into battle, making sure they are indeed used at all, whereas storm is never a guarantee since Templars are a high-priority target once the fighting starts, and a dozen Templars with full mana can be rendered useless by one EMP. See, it's debatable, and extra hard to tell just because nobody uses Hallucination in progames so we have yet to see how good it can be in practice.
I did put in a paranthesis about the fact that some casters could be more cost-efficient. Queens are such a unit, with their cost being too high and their spells costing slightly to much mana. But if one did manage to aim right etc, ensnare and broodling could really turn the tide of a battle. In one of the faster paced ZvP that I've played that I actually WON, I won because I had four Queens broodling four templars at the start of the fight, meaning he only got off one storm. More would have made it gg. There is nothing in the Zerg arsenal that kills faster, easier, from a greater range and with greater chance of success than Spawn Broodling, and they are ideal for crucial units such as Templars. I've used Queens vs Terran as well, but in that matchup the cost of Broodling is too high for any single Terran unit, but on the other hand Ensnare REALLY raped, because my opponent couldn't run out of the swarms in time, or flee to minimize damages when I got an upper hand.
Now the MC and Broodling on Ultras was just something I like to daydream about, because how annoying wouldn't it be for a Zerg to send five Ultras into battle and instantly lose four, either to broodlings or to the other side? Just for funsies, but as you mentioned Maelstrom is of far more application. That clip from most pimpest plays when someone, I forgot who, kept an entire Zerg armada Maelstrommed while he slaughtered them was just priceless. Excellent use of a rarely seen caster, one which can practically win a game for you.
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On February 02 2008 01:50 Meh wrote:
Gurr, edited :p
As far as the use of hallucination, whether a storm is better than two hallucinated units is kind of hard to decide, because their application and execution are so different. Hallucination, I believe, costs 25 more energy than storm. It gives two fake units that are indistinguishable from real ones, besides the amount of dmg they can take, which, theoretically, in bulk could offload alot of damage from your real units. Also worth noting is that the best time to cast it would be right before you go into battle, making sure they are indeed used at all, whereas storm is never a guarantee since Templars are a high-priority target once the fighting starts, and a dozen Templars with full mana can be rendered useless by one EMP. See, it's debatable, and extra hard to tell just because nobody uses Hallucination in progames so we have yet to see how good it can be in practice.
I did put in a paranthesis about the fact that some casters could be more cost-efficient. Queens are such a unit, with their cost being too high and their spells costing slightly to much mana. But if one did manage to aim right etc, ensnare and broodling could really turn the tide of a battle. In one of the faster paced ZvP that I've played that I actually WON, I won because I had four Queens broodling four templars at the start of the fight, meaning he only got off one storm. More would have made it gg. There is nothing in the Zerg arsenal that kills faster, easier, from a greater range and with greater chance of success than Spawn Broodling, and they are ideal for crucial units such as Templars. I've used Queens vs Terran as well, but in that matchup the cost of Broodling is too high for any single Terran unit, but on the other hand Ensnare REALLY raped, because my opponent couldn't run out of the swarms in time, or flee to minimize damages when I got an upper hand.
Now the MC and Broodling on Ultras was just something I like to daydream about, because how annoying wouldn't it be for a Zerg to send five Ultras into battle and instantly lose four, either to broodlings or to the other side? Just for funsies, but as you mentioned Maelstrom is of far more application. That clip from most pimpest plays when someone, I forgot who, kept an entire Zerg armada Maelstrommed while he slaughtered them was just priceless. Excellent use of a rarely seen caster, one which can practically win a game for you.
Hallucinations take double full damage from all sources. You need a whole army of Hallucinations to get to the mines, and still most of them die before getting there. It's much more worthwhile to have a group of tanks take storm damage. Plus, it's more likely to store up energy for 2 storms than 2 hallucinations on a single templar.
Science Vessels aren't really used in T v P, especially when terran goes metal. In a bio game, I guess you could make an argument that EMP would be useful, but in most cases it's silly. Especially when you say it's a potential reason to use Hallucination instead of Psi Storm, which the only reason for hallucination would be mines, which means terran went metal. Plus, a shuttle is a natural palce for Templar, eaning Emp doesn't effect them.
The queen's problem is that Broodling is too damn expensive (mana wise) and ensnare is too gas heavy. Queen delays Hive, delays defilers. Isn't worthwhile in the slightest. Plague >>>> Ensnare, Swarm >>> Ensnare and with Consume, you can do both much more with 1 defiler than an army of queens.
My point is that difficulty to use doesn't have anything to do with MBS. Spells ill-used in BW are ill-used because they aren't very good, not because macro takes too much time. The only exception I can think of is that Lockdown is rarely used because it is too difficult.
Maelstrom doesn't last long enough Imo. I don't know why feedback isn't used more. It would be really handy for Defilers, since a filer neeeds enough energy for feedback to kill it to cast any spells.
That was Grr . . . by the way with the pimp maelstron (can't remeber v who though).
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On February 02 2008 03:06 GeneralStan wrote:
(can't remeber v who though).
Zerglee i think.
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@Meh: Funny thing you mention about Maelstrom not being used, I remember Dreiven making fairly frequent use of it against Ret recently in the Ascension tournament. Might want to check that game out, Dreiven uses it pretty well.
As for your examples, I have this nagging feeling that they were fairly low skill games. No insult intended, but it's sort of like when you here about someone saying "This one time, I MC'ed an SCV and owned him with a 400 pop cap army."
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Dreiven vs Ret... PvZ on Loki II, win by Ret? In that case I saw that one :p
Definitely not high skill, was just saying it won the game for me, without me having to be more skilled than I am. Now, the only reason I can think of for not getting Science Vessels when T goes metal is the gas cost, but then again mid-game you're cranking out tanks by the dozen with 2+ exps and one EMP against a protoss is fecking pimp. And from what I've seen you don't stick Templars in Shuttles unless you're intending to drop his mineral line. In battle Shuttles are usually used for Zealot bombing whereas your Templars just come in with the rest of the army. And even if you did stick them in a shuttle, they'd have to come out sooner or later lest they be made totally useless.
I could be totally wrong of course, but it seems to me that there are alot of spells which would completely change how players would have to play certain matchups. Theoretically ofc, and maybe every single angle has been practically exhausted after 10 years, but it feels like that's what people were saying before things like zealot bombing, mutastack harrass, boxers blindspot, Bisu's FE (not sure if he came up with it, I don't keep good track of these things) etc. Or Boxer's nukerush, any idea why that did not become a viable strategy? Surely his opponent didn't suck THAT much that only he would fall for it? How about sending in a shuttle at a protoss/zerg expo with M&M's + a single cloaked Ghost that starts a nuke while scan and Optical Flare keeps the area clear of useable Overlords/Observers? I know, the risk of losing the whole nuke because you can't keep your Ghost alive is a risk, and most people want to play safe, but the lack of innovation in todays proscene is really depressing, everyone just tries to play the generic strats the best they can, and expect no less from their opponents. But seriously, what wouldn't lockdown do for TvP, Disruption web for PvT and PvZ (even that spell is rarely used, even though Bisu could have raped the 5 pooler if he'd just been able to get rid of the spore colonies for a few seconds...), Maelstrom against any given game of PvZ, (Ensnare and Broodling in any ZvP where you find yourself unable to spend your gas and minerals fast enough :3), and ofc nuking.
Needs more cowbell, needs more nuke. How awesome would it be to see a successful nuke in an OSL final? oO Show some balls you powernerd chickens.
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On February 01 2008 18:04 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2008 11:31 MyLostTemple wrote:On January 31 2008 21:01 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On January 31 2008 14:09 MyLostTemple wrote:On January 31 2008 02:05 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On January 30 2008 07:07 MyLostTemple wrote:
where in the fuck are you getting the idea DAs arn't used competitvely because their too micro intensive. firstly DAs are used competitively, especially in PvZ but also in PvP at times. the problem is you have to morph two DTs to make a DA.... most of the time that's not very COST EFFECTIVE because dts are very valuble and more versitle than DAs are. DAs are only required late late game. I can't believe you actually think medic abilities arn't used because their too micro intensive, lol. Medics absolutely need their energy to heal marines, not blind units. And if you mean restoration there are too few instances to use this, unless ofcourse you got parasited... but then again how often do players get queens? not too often because they're not very COST EFFECTIVE either.
obviously a player can still macro slightly faster by not using MBS. The problem is that they arn't peanalized as much for getting behind. There is also no risk for double queing with MBS where there is for SBS. That's bad.
also, when a metagame forms there WILL be moments when players can and can not attack each other. when they can't attack each other they must macro, but not with such ease. i'm also all for more hotkeys, i think that would be great. I can agree with you on the queens but the rest is bullshit. A DA is what, 250 mins, 200 gas, starts with feedback which costs 50 mana. Mid to late game you see pros throwing away HT's like candy sometimes even sacrificing to try to get storms in on a static army. If you can afford 5 or 6 HT's in your army you can afford 250/200 for a unit that will pay for itself if it manages to use it's ability twice, especially since it's very likely that it will allways have the mana to do that and since it's hard to snipe. Same thing against zergs who run their defilers up to plauge armies even more often (and which is harder to stop). If pro's could do it they would. And yes they use them at times but it's rare (just look at the comments on games when they do bring them out) even though they *allways* have the avalible tech to do so. Medics? Medics are 50/25 a single vessel is 100/225 and restore is 50. You think it would have been used more if it required less energy? Doubtfull, just add two more medics or so and use restore ONLY when you can pull back vessels safely after a irradiate run which ended badly and it would still be worth it. Just to much micro involved to do it even for pros. It's not cost effective when it comes to time but it's easily cost effective when it comes to resources. Also anyone who think BW is 50/50 macro/micro is deluded. If you measure by importance it's more like 40/60 or even higher towards macro. Extreme macro is a requirment to be able to figth in the higher leauges today. Extreme micro may win you a few games but a lack of macro will loose you most games. Why do you think the game is evolving towards more and more macro? Because it's what you win games by so pro's work more towards it, which proves that it's more important. I don't see the problem in switching so it's 60/40 towards micro. Just like there is "micro" players today there will be macro players tomorow, it's just that the ratio will change. Perhaps not even enough to make micro more important than macro, perhaps macro will still be on top, just not as much. No. Firstly you need DTs early and mid game because map control matters. If i have two DTs i can control many locations on the map, picking off expo drones or spotter lings. Late game more expos are taken, DTs play less of a crucial role because the next places to expand are more obvious and accessable to both players because their tech trees are finished and they both control more of the map. DAs play an incredibliy important role with melee storm vs ultras and feedback, but only late game. Further more feedback is one of the EASIEST spells to cast and micro well in the game. This is due to the fact that feedback has unbelieveable range and has little if any cool down time. pros DO do this, so i suggest you start watching more proleague games because you sound like a retard. I even see people doing this on iccup FFS. And using restoration on your own vessels after you irradiate them is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. firstly if your using irriadiate on your vessels then they are most likely not near your army, so irradiate would have worn off by then. But even if your army was near by all you'd need to do is not float your vessels over your own marines. There's no point in using restoration because vessels running from scourge while irriadiated have a higher chance of surviving. So there is basically NO point in waisting medic energy on something as stupid as restoration. You don't know how to play this game. MBS just makes things easier for players who are sloopy and can't keep up. It's like the having autocast for macro, it may be more efficient at times to macro it yourself, but in the end your still helping a bad player out which is stupid if your making an esport. Work on your reading comprehension. Work on your elitism. Work on your logic. Work on at least trying to keep the same train of arguments in the thread instead of changing your opinion every 10 pages. Work on your manner. Then come talk to me. Because rigth now your bringing nothing to the debate except rabid, incoherent babbling and I think you realise this yourself. If i'm being overly rude i apologize but when someone is saying information about this game that is simply incorrect i wont hesitate to put them in their place. i've done it before and i'll do it again. anyone who thinks medics should be waisting mana restoring vessels after they've irradiated them dosn't know how to play this game.your arguing that progamers can't preform complex micro with specific units becuase the macro burden is too heavy. In actuality many of these abilities arn't cost effective. There's nothing incoherent about my arguments. Doubtfull, just add two more medics or so and use restore ONLY when you can pull back vessels safely after a irradiate run which ended badly and it would still be worth it. Just to much micro involved to do it even for pros. Where in this sentence to I mention removing irradiate from vessels? For anyone with a basic knowledge of starcraft and some understanding of the English language (and within the context of the subject) it's pretty clear what I mean. Others seem to get it. Irradiate run = flying away with your vessels to irradiate things like ultras and defilers. A pretty common strategy in TvZ. Ending badly = One of the defilers getting in a nice plauge. Net effect is that you have a lot of plauged vessels hovering over your idling army since the zerg can't kill them rigth after the plauge. This happens rather frequently and would be a perfect time to restore the vessels. Work on your reading comprehension.
Work on your elitism.
Work on your logic.
Work on at least trying to keep the same train of arguments in the thread instead of changing your opinion every 10 pages.
Work on your manner.Then come talk to me. Because rigth now your bringing nothing to the debate except rabid, incoherent babbling and I think you realise this yourself.
I really, for the life of me, dont know how you are getting away with adding insults on to the end of your post directed to a respected forum member, but....
restoration isnt that hard to micro. There are many more micro intensive plays that progamers currently pull off today. If it isnt being used, chances are its not practical for other reasons.
Besides, the choice the player has to make between macro and micro leads to diverse gameplay styles which leads to entertainment.
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Being a respected forum member gives you the opportunity to get away with a few things but it doesn't mean that people can't call you out when your an asshole (of course this was over a missunderstanding so it doesn't really count but still). I just got flamed and then I responded to it.
I imagine if it wasn't tastless there would be temp bans involved. 
Edit: I didn't actually know it was tastless at first so I actually asked FA to ban him. :D
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On February 02 2008 14:27 fusionsdf wrote:
Besides, the choice the player has to make between macro and micro leads to diverse gameplay styles which leads to entertainment.
That argument is repeated over and over like it would eventually turn true. That wasn´t the case in SC. The concept was made famous in CnC and became famous as the "Tank Rush" - synonymous for bad balance.
If viable outproducing the enemy is always better than outperforming (on the battlefield) because of the various risks interhit to the styles.
SC went against that by making combat units utterly useless without babysitting. For example Siege Tanks: useless if not sieged in the correct position.
We can expect SC2 to eventually introduce a lower time investment revenue cap to the economy. Meaning that eventually both players can´t improve their production (around their expansion strategy) so they actually have to take risks to get the upper hand.
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Isn't being unable to hotkey multiple buildings while being able to either shift-select or drag-select your buildings a good compromise? It requires either hotkeying different structures under separate keys or taking your attention from the battle to move the screen over your base in order to macro properly. This would make Zerg macro more balanced too. What do you think, guys?
From what I gathered, pro-MBS people rarely care about being able to hotkey multiple buildings, while for anti-MBS players it's the main concern.
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On February 03 2008 01:04 maybenexttime wrote:
Isn't being unable to hotkey multiple buildings while being able to either shift-select or drag-select your buildings a good compromise? It requires either hotkeying different structures under separate keys or taking your attention from the battle to move the screen over your base in order to macro properly. This would make Zerg macro more balanced too. What do you think, guys?
From what I gathered, pro-MBS people rarely care about being able to hotkey multiple buildings, while for anti-MBS players it's the main concern.
I was also under the impression that this would be the best way to use it. I dont know why this hasnt been settled yet. If your noob enough to need MBS, then all you want is to go back and be able to double click ure barracks, thats not a problem, as long as your not hotkeying them its fine.
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I actually came to this conclusion together with some pro-MBS people on BNet forums, so there's actually a chance we can convince more people.
On the other hand, CowGoMoo said SC2 is unlikely Blizzard will consider that - they're THAT ignorant. :/ Hopefully they change their mind - after all, what stops them from experimenting with it in beta stages, when more people can tell what impact MBS/no MBS has on the game.
He also said that, from what he remembers, currently units queue up in your first producing structure instead of spreading between all of them evenly. I.e. if you press 'z' four times while one Zealot is already being produced, those Zealots will queue up in the very Gateway that's currently training unit(s), meaning you'll have five Zealots in one queue instead of one per each Gateway. Basically you can't constantly spend your money with MBS this way - you'd have to save an even sum (let's say 1000 for 10 Zealots, one per each Gateway) for them not to queue up.
If that was the case in all instances, then this alone would be enough of a compromise since noobs wouldn't care about their units being queued up instead of being produced one at a time, while better players would have to take care of macroing properly not unlike in SC.
I just hope Blizzard finally stops pretending the issue doesn't exist by the way...
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I'd be fine with that. Or perhaps a way to bind buildings into "groups" instead of hotkeys. That is you select buildings that you want to be in the same building and then click the "group" command (for examples on how this works see the total war games). Every time you click on a member of the group the default action is to select all of the group but it's not a hotkey so you have to manually click on it or it's icon. It's similar to the double click select only things can be as far offscreen as you want because you have preselected what should be in the group.
Of course it would probably be a good idea to include location hotkeys like they have in BW so you can move quickly between your buildings.
I don't really care if they include one click for each unit or one click to build in all gateways as the default, but I think both options should be avalible as well. I think pro's would appriciate as much finesse as they can get.
Edit: If it does work the way maybenextime says that would be a good compromise as well IMHO.
I think TL should decide on something (or several alternatives) that is agreeable for both sides and then endorse it officially, would be a much greater chance of getting Blizzards attention.
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EPT
