EPTI don't care if MBS and automine are in the game, they just have to be kept as a SETTING that won't be used for ladders and tournaments. That way Blizzard pleases newbies and pros. i'm more than aware that there are many crowds to please. but sacking the crowd that was good at the last game so you can pick up a bunch of new players seems stupid. Many people claim this would cause a split community. But in reality SC already has many communities: competitive, team play, BGH, UMS and more. In SC2 there will be room for more. As long as blizzard makes an effort to preserve the competitive community by keeping competitive features, then i'm fine. But otherwise I, and everyone else who's good at this game including an entire nation called South Korea will probably be throughly disapointed.
[D] MBS Discussion II - Page 21
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
I don't care if MBS and automine are in the game, they just have to be kept as a SETTING that won't be used for ladders and tournaments. That way Blizzard pleases newbies and pros. i'm more than aware that there are many crowds to please. but sacking the crowd that was good at the last game so you can pick up a bunch of new players seems stupid. Many people claim this would cause a split community. But in reality SC already has many communities: competitive, team play, BGH, UMS and more. In SC2 there will be room for more. As long as blizzard makes an effort to preserve the competitive community by keeping competitive features, then i'm fine. But otherwise I, and everyone else who's good at this game including an entire nation called South Korea will probably be throughly disapointed. | ||
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InterWill
Sweden117 Posts
At this point, it feels unlikely that they would deimplement MBS. They will do their best to add complexity for more advanced players (maybe through clever usage of terran addons, or protoss warp-in technology), but whether they succeed in making StarCraft II feel like you want it to feel is highly debatable. Even more unlikely is that Blizzard would use different unit/building-selection rules for single- and multi player. That's so counter intuitive and so against the Blizzard design philosophy that, well, I would be very surprised if they went that way. But I was thinking, in Warcraft III you don't pay to put units in the unit queue. You only pay when they actually start producing. I haven't seen this brought up yet. Was this implemented in the Blizzcon build? And if it was, wouldn't that have the potential to affect macro maybe even as much as MBS would? | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
Without the tax you can decide what you need, order and forget about it for a while. With the tax you need to revisit the building each time something is finished, independend HOW you get there, by MBS or SBS. Also, no MBS but more Hotkeys? Ok, that is even more compfortable, doesn´t get easier than that. With more hotkeys it wouldn´t matter if MBS were in, you would Hotkey each individual building anyway. On Automine btw. it doesn´t matter since I just recalled that finished productions now trigger a text message. So no one could forget SCVs anyway wich is just as good. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2818 Posts
On January 30 2008 07:07 MyLostTemple wrote: where in the fuck are you getting the idea DAs arn't used competitvely because their too micro intensive. firstly DAs are used competitively, especially in PvZ but also in PvP at times. the problem is you have to morph two DTs to make a DA.... most of the time that's not very COST EFFECTIVE because dts are very valuble and more versitle than DAs are. DAs are only required late late game. I can't believe you actually think medic abilities arn't used because their too micro intensive, lol. Medics absolutely need their energy to heal marines, not blind units. And if you mean restoration there are too few instances to use this, unless ofcourse you got parasited... but then again how often do players get queens? not too often because they're not very COST EFFECTIVE either. obviously a player can still macro slightly faster by not using MBS. The problem is that they arn't peanalized as much for getting behind. There is also no risk for double queing with MBS where there is for SBS. That's bad. also, when a metagame forms there WILL be moments when players can and can not attack each other. when they can't attack each other they must macro, but not with such ease. i'm also all for more hotkeys, i think that would be great. I can agree with you on the queens but the rest is bullshit. A DA is what, 250 mins, 200 gas, starts with feedback which costs 50 mana. Mid to late game you see pros throwing away HT's like candy sometimes even sacrificing to try to get storms in on a static army. If you can afford 5 or 6 HT's in your army you can afford 250/200 for a unit that will pay for itself if it manages to use it's ability twice, especially since it's very likely that it will allways have the mana to do that and since it's hard to snipe. Same thing against zergs who run their defilers up to plauge armies even more often (and which is harder to stop). If pro's could do it they would. And yes they use them at times but it's rare (just look at the comments on games when they do bring them out) even though they *allways* have the avalible tech to do so. Medics? Medics are 50/25 a single vessel is 100/225 and restore is 50. You think it would have been used more if it required less energy? Doubtfull, just add two more medics or so and use restore ONLY when you can pull back vessels safely after a irradiate run which ended badly and it would still be worth it. Just to much micro involved to do it even for pros. It's not cost effective when it comes to time but it's easily cost effective when it comes to resources. Also anyone who think BW is 50/50 macro/micro is deluded. If you measure by importance it's more like 40/60 or even higher towards macro. Extreme macro is a requirment to be able to figth in the higher leauges today. Extreme micro may win you a few games but a lack of macro will loose you most games. Why do you think the game is evolving towards more and more macro? Because it's what you win games by so pro's work more towards it, which proves that it's more important. I don't see the problem in switching so it's 60/40 towards micro. Just like there is "micro" players today there will be macro players tomorow, it's just that the ratio will change. Perhaps not even enough to make micro more important than macro, perhaps macro will still be on top, just not as much. | ||
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
In a game with MBS, the player with the advantage can spend more time preparing adequate defense for harassment, or even just more time watching his minimap (in this case, spending more time on scouting could have prevented these attacks). SInce the leading player is spending only about as much time on macro as the losing player, than he knows that defending against harassment is all he needs to do to win. Basically, MBS makes harassment harder due to increased attention, even further solidifying the leading player's advantage. There is a fair argument that could be made that harassment options will be more powerful, so that simply being aware of coming harassment isn't enough to stop it, we simply don't know enough about the game at this point. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On January 31 2008 02:25 GeneralStan wrote: we simply don't know enough about the game at this point. Wich is why this debate is never ending  | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
Also, no MBS but more Hotkeys? Ok, that is even more compfortable, doesn´t get easier than that. With more hotkeys it wouldn´t matter if MBS were in, you would Hotkey each individual building anyway. Wait, what? More hotkeys makes the game even easier than MBS? | ||
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
True. However, there is a single assumption we are working with though, namely that they are attempting to recreate the feel of Starcraft. This is unshakable. I translate this into a few other assumptions. There will be roughly the same number of units per match-up as BW. This is the primary assumption we base working with MBS on. While more unit types to produce would make MBS less advantageous, it would also erode the simplicity that made BW great. That assumption allows for us to assume that MBS allows production to be controlled primarily by hotkeys, thus significantly changing the attention ratio, and leading to the changes predicted | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5824 Posts
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On January 31 2008 04:15 BlackStar wrote: Wait, what? More hotkeys makes the game even easier than MBS? Of course. Think about it. All your worst case predictions about MBS assume that we can use hotkeys to control the base. Having enough Hotkeys for each individual Building makes that way easier than having one hotkey for all of them. And it wouldn´t even limit your control over your units (since you don´t have to balance between unit/building hotkeys). | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
On January 31 2008 06:01 Unentschieden wrote: Of course. Think about it. All your worst case predictions about MBS assume that we can use hotkeys to control the base. Having enough Hotkeys for each individual Building makes that way easier than having one hotkey for all of them. And it wouldn´t even limit your control over your units (since you don´t have to balance between unit/building hotkeys). Nope. You'd have to take time to hit each individual hotkey and make individual units, thus, directing most of your focus to macroing. I just read this one page cuase I was bored, off to class now. G'day. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
IF it were, all thouse anti-MBS arguments would make more sense, I´d give you that. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2818 Posts
On January 31 2008 06:43 mahnini wrote: Nope. You'd have to take time to hit each individual hotkey and make individual units, thus, directing most of your focus to macroing. I just read this one page cuase I was bored, off to class now. G'day. Wrong. Unlimited hotkeys are a superior alternative to MBS from the progamers standpoint. And we are discussing progamers here rigth, and not casual gamers? The problem with macro is not that progamers doesn't have the speed to macro properly, it's that they have to divide attention towards their base and manually click each barracks in order to produce units. They have to actually look at the buildings which draws away attention from their troops. This is because they don't have enough hotkeys to actually build stuff from all of their production facilities. In fact most progamers could probably build new units flawlessly as soon as money came in, or at least almost as soon as money came in, if they had a hotkeyed production facility that was empty the entire time. The fact that this never happens is the main counter argument to the "progamers are to good to want to build in bulk". (Anti-MBS side argued that it's the diversion from the units and thus the switch of focus that is important). It's naive to think that a progamer who allways have a free production facility on hotkey would not have time to build a unit if he could do so while watching his attack, if things get hectic he can allways switch to micro since he never looses his focus. In fact unlimited hotkeys are superior since if Bisu does have 300/200 banked it's entirely possible that he doesn't want to build 1 sair and 1 zealot. With MBS he'd have to select his two stargates, select one of them and build a sair, then select his gateways and build the zealot. With unlimted hotkeys it's just 8o9z. With MBS or unlimited hotkeys macro will be easier since they don't have to switch focus so a progamer will never a) build things in bulk which makes several stops of 1-2 units from each macro "burst" necessary either way and ties unlimited hotkeys to MBS in usefullness b) worry more about unit selection in which case unlimited hotkeys are far superior. For the casual gamer MBS will probably be better anway but that's not the point of discussion in this thread. | ||
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parkin
1090 Posts
For example to build 5 zealots from 5 Gateways that are bind to hotkey 5. 5, z, Tab, z, Tab, z, Tab, z, Tab, z, This is also useful if you want to mix up units so instead of pressing "z" it will use 500 minerals and build 5 zealots you can be more flexible and, lets say, 3 zealots and 2 dragons. 5, z, Tab, z, Tab, z, Tab, d, Tab, d What do you think? | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2818 Posts
On January 31 2008 07:24 parkin wrote: Maybe you should be able to select several buildeings at the same time. But only one building is highlighted that you can build from then you need to use Tab to tab between the different buildings. For example to build 5 zealots from 5 Gateways that are bind to hotkey 5. 5, z, Tab, z, Tab, z, Tab, z, Tab, z, This is also useful if you want to mix up units so instead of pressing "z" it will use 500 minerals and build 5 zealots you can be more flexible and, lets say, 3 zealots and 2 dragons. 5, z, Tab, z, Tab, z, Tab, d, Tab, d What do you think? It's exactly the same thing as unlimited hotkeys only that you switch the 1,2,3,4,5 to Tab instead and you free up more buttons on the keyboard. A much more usefull version would be to have the gateway or factory auto-tab to the next gateway when you build in the currently selected one. For noobs you could include a "Shift-Z" which would que up a zealot in every gateway. So: 1, z,z,z,z,z | ||
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prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
On January 31 2008 07:24 parkin wrote: Maybe you should be able to select several buildeings at the same time. But only one building is highlighted that you can build from then you need to use Tab to tab between the different buildings. For example to build 5 zealots from 5 Gateways that are bind to hotkey 5. 5, z, Tab, z, Tab, z, Tab, z, Tab, z, This is also useful if you want to mix up units so instead of pressing "z" it will use 500 minerals and build 5 zealots you can be more flexible and, lets say, 3 zealots and 2 dragons. 5, z, Tab, z, Tab, z, Tab, d, Tab, d What do you think? That's actually quite appealing to me and I'm anti-MBS | ||
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parkin
1090 Posts
On January 31 2008 07:34 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: It's exactly the same thing as unlimited hotkeys only that you switch the 1,2,3,4,5 to Tab instead and you free up more buttons on the keyboard. A much more usefull version would be to have the gateway or factory auto-tab to the next gateway when you build in the currently selected one. For noobs you could include a "Shift-Z" which would que up a zealot in every gateway. So: 1, z,z,z,z,z That would be a good idea if you want to reduce macroing even more and make it easier for new players. My wish is that there will be no MBS at all but that wont happen. I hope theyll find a good compromise | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2818 Posts
On January 31 2008 07:42 parkin wrote: That would be a good idea if you want to reduce macroing even more and make it easier for new players. My wish is that there will be no MBS at all but that wont happen. I hope theyll find a good compromise Macro is =/= ammount of clicks per unit. Nada has 450 APM and one or two clicks per vulture doesn't really matter to him since he can make 7,5 of those clicks per second. So removing those extra (tab) clicks for the rest of us is just a logical development of the UI since they don't really matter. Similarly allowing new players to build out of all gateways at the same time if they wish doesn't really change anything except make the newbie very, very happy when he can spend his 2000 minerals with just 4 clicks despite his 30 APM (likely only have 5 gatways so there will be a bit of queing involved). If your going to implement anything (basically do people want their extra hotkeys or not?) I think it would be the perfect system. There's no harm in adding features that only new players need as a crutch, it only helps to get them into the game. | ||
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parkin
1090 Posts
On January 31 2008 07:50 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Macro is =/= ammount of clicks per unit. Nada has 450 APM and one or two clicks per vulture doesn't really matter to him since he can make 7,5 of those clicks per second. So removing those extra (tab) clicks for the rest of us is just a logical development of the UI since they don't really matter. Similarly allowing new players to build out of all gateways at the same time if they wish doesn't really change anything except make the newbie very, very happy when he can spend his 2000 minerals with just 4 clicks despite his 30 APM (likely only have 5 gatways so there will be a bit of queing involved). If your going to implement anything (basically do people want their extra hotkeys or not?) I think it would be the perfect system. There's no harm in adding features that only new players need as a crutch, it only helps to get them into the game. Youre right^^ | ||
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